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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stefan never told your production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: And today we are having what I would call a

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Speaker 3: wonderful fantasy crossover for me, specifically because my TikTok world

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Speaker 3: is coming onto the Sminty world. That is correct, and

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited because we have a bioethicist and expert

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Speaker 3: in the field of public health.

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Speaker 1: And Okay, first of all, that's just one of.

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Speaker 3: The mini hats that they wear, so I'm just gonna

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Speaker 3: leave it at that, but I'm so excited. Evan, Welcome

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Speaker 3: to s Minty, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Hi, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Can you introduce yourself to our listeners.

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Speaker 4: I can. My name is Evan and I am I

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Speaker 4: go by Evan the bioethicist on TikTok. I work in

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Speaker 4: public health, but I also have a background in all

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Speaker 4: things related to misinformation, disinformation, and conspiracy theories as they

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Speaker 4: affect public health. And this includes things like biotechnology, AI

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Speaker 4: and media so much.

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Speaker 3: And you just did like a very succinct introduction because

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Speaker 3: as I was like looking you up, because I know

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Speaker 3: you from TikTok, the discovery of TikTok, because the listeners

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Speaker 3: know I'm obsessed. But when I was reading through the

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Speaker 3: articles that you have the like the education, your background,

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Speaker 3: your career filed, I'm like, my gosh, I think we

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Speaker 3: need well you were talking about want to expand. I

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Speaker 3: think you need a podcast and if you want to

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Speaker 3: come on to ours more often.

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Speaker 4: I don't know anything about the podcasting world. People have

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Speaker 4: said I need a podcast. I don't know what that entails.

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Speaker 4: I am open to learning, though, Hey.

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Speaker 3: I love that you're stepping in with us, because I

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Speaker 3: do feel like, again, this is one of those moments

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Speaker 3: where I fan girl a little too much because I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I've seen them so often on my feed and they

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Speaker 3: tell me great information. Now they're here and I'm just

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Speaker 3: gonna pick their brains. Which I've already warned you. It

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Speaker 3: was like, be ready questions.

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Speaker 4: I'm open for it. I'm available good.

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Speaker 3: Like I said, I'm so excited to talk about your

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Speaker 3: work and your experiences and just your overall expertise because

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Speaker 3: there's a lot going on in the world.

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Speaker 4: A lot.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that is true, Yes, it definitely is.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people have told me that my research,

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Speaker 4: which I finished school about two years ago now, was

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Speaker 4: very precin and I'm like, you know, yeah, I didn't

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Speaker 4: realize how much, so but.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, well here you are. Can you for

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Speaker 2: those of us that might not know, can you give

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Speaker 2: us a brief explanation of what a bioethicist is and does?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely? I know when you know your listeners and my mom,

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Speaker 4: I tell you right, So, a bioethicist. There's this thing

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Speaker 4: called medical humanities, and in the science there's like the

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Speaker 4: science humanities, and so it's essentially those are folks who

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Speaker 4: are who do the like social science part of like

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Speaker 4: hard sciences. I don't really love calling things hard and

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Speaker 4: soft sciences, but you know, so, a bioethicist is someone

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Speaker 4: who has a background in training in things like decision

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Speaker 4: making policy. We learn about qualitative methodology when it comes

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Speaker 4: to research. We talk a lot about things like consent

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Speaker 4: when it comes to research subjects. So we talk a

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Speaker 4: lot about ethical design and principles That can range from

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Speaker 4: everything from like transplantation ethics and policy to clinical bioethics,

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Speaker 4: which is helping people decide things around like religion, beliefs,

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Speaker 4: like people want to be I have a DNR DNI.

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Speaker 4: There's like so much to it and every bioethicist is

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Speaker 4: very different. A lot of bioethicists combine their bioethics training

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Speaker 4: with like a medical degree, like being an MD or

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Speaker 4: being a JD. So you'll see a lot of bioethicists

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Speaker 4: who cause play as lawyers and doctors. But we're many things,

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Speaker 4: which is why you don't hear about them as often

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Speaker 4: because oftentimes, you know, people know what a lawyer is,

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Speaker 4: people know what a physician or a doctor is, and

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Speaker 4: so they don't really know that the person that they

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Speaker 4: know who's a lawyer or a doctor is is a

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Speaker 4: bioethicist or practices bioethics rather than is practicing medicine or law.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense, thank you, because I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't until I again stumbled on your page that

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Speaker 3: I was like, what what is this? Oh?

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Speaker 1: That makes sense? Like it makes sense when you.

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Speaker 3: Hear it after the fact, you're like, yeah, that's necessary.

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Speaker 1: I like this.

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Speaker 4: And to be fair, we've only started to endeavor bioethicists

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Speaker 4: as a standalone profession, and having started to endeavor bioethics

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Speaker 4: in public health, it's not super super common that someone

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Speaker 4: is like, I'm just a bioethicis like that is my training. Fully,

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Speaker 4: that is what I'm interested in, and I work in

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Speaker 4: public health and those things are super rare. Now they're growing,

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Speaker 4: They're ever growing, and there's more and more of us

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Speaker 4: every year.

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Speaker 3: But.

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Speaker 4: Newer.

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Speaker 1: So what made you choose this work exactly?

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Speaker 4: Originally, historically in undergrad I had been pre med and

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Speaker 4: then somebody told me that I had to do rotations

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Speaker 4: where I had to treat patients. And I never wanted

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Speaker 4: to do that. I know that sounds kooky, but I

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Speaker 4: had always wanted to have the training in medicine. I

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Speaker 4: never wanted to treat people. I had thought I would

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Speaker 4: go into things like forensics, and then I realized I

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Speaker 4: actually really like the more expansive or like population health

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Speaker 4: based work that comes with public health. But I still

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Speaker 4: love the medical humanities. I still love talking to people

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Speaker 4: about like what does it mean to like think about

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Speaker 4: zeno transplantation, or like I love telling people. I love

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Speaker 4: telling people about how important horseshoe crabs are to protecting

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Speaker 4: us from having unsterile like medications, especially cancer medications which

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Speaker 4: are injectables. Like that fuels me these like sort of weird,

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Speaker 4: quirky facts. But an also like the complexity that comes

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Speaker 4: with like thought and decision making. A lot of people

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Speaker 4: don't think about how does policy happen, how do decisions happen?

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Speaker 4: What influences medicine? And I love talking about those things.

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Speaker 4: I love learning about them. I've been recently, I know

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Speaker 4: if Samantha, since you watched my TikTok, you know how

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Speaker 4: much I've been delving into like disgusted as like a

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Speaker 4: philosophic concept.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm not gonna lie. That one went over

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Speaker 1: my head.

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Speaker 3: I had to sit there and like, as you were

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Speaker 3: talking about these series, I had to go back and

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Speaker 3: I was.

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Speaker 1: Like, wait, what huh?

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Speaker 3: Because that in itself as a question didn't doesn't rise

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Speaker 3: in my head.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense? I was like, oh, huh huh.

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Speaker 1: So there's so.

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Speaker 3: Many Okay, obviously again with a fangirl is like, there

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Speaker 3: are so many moments where I've had to take your

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Speaker 3: video which is a little longer than your typical like

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Speaker 3: ten second or fifteen second run up, because you give

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Speaker 3: so much information that I have to go back and

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Speaker 3: listen to a few times, and each time I feel

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Speaker 3: like I'm catching onto something different in a lesson. So

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Speaker 3: it does feel like I'm getting a good school learning

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Speaker 3: when I'm listening to your stuff. But again, like it

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Speaker 3: rises to new questions that I'm like, I haven't even

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Speaker 3: thought of that one.

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Speaker 4: And that's the idea. I mean. When I originally started

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Speaker 4: to endeavor to create my page and really curate it

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Speaker 4: with information, I was thinking critically around, like, how can

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Speaker 4: this be an educational tool? How can people use this?

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Speaker 4: Can people revisit what I've said? And so I love

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Speaker 4: that people say that they come back and watch a

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Speaker 4: video over over, because yeah, a lot of these things

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Speaker 4: are not things you're going to like consume once and

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Speaker 4: be like, oh, I got it, Like that's good. I like,

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Speaker 4: but reflection is part of it, right, Like that's like you.

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Speaker 2: Know yeah, yeah, I mean it's obviously if you're an

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Speaker 2: expert in something, it makes sense that somebody in one

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Speaker 2: video watch would be like, yes, understood. So with everything

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Speaker 2: that we've alluded to that it is happening today, especially

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Speaker 2: in the US perhaps, and as you mentioned, you have

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Speaker 2: expertise in combating misinformation and disinformation when it comes to

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Speaker 2: public health. That seems like a really huge task. Can

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Speaker 2: you tell us what this type of work actually looks like.

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Speaker 4: It looks like a lot of things, but one of

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Speaker 4: the primary things I like to point out for people

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Speaker 4: is that a lot of people think this is like

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Speaker 4: a newer thing, and especially in medicine and health, misinformation

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Speaker 4: and disinformation and conspiracy theories have always existed. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I could go all the way back to the first

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Speaker 4: like organized invention of like vaccination with cowpox, right, which

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Speaker 4: we were injecting people with a live virus to protect

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Speaker 4: against smallpox. And there was a number of newspapers that

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Speaker 4: put out like, you know, sort of tongue in cheek

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Speaker 4: cartoons of people turning into cows, right, and that influenced

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Speaker 4: people into thinking or trying or avoiding vaccination because they

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Speaker 4: were afraid they would be turned into a cow. So

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Speaker 4: the first thing is to know the history of it,

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Speaker 4: and the second thing is to also know the difference

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Speaker 4: between misinformation and disinformation. A lot of people use those interchangeably,

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Speaker 4: and they're not the same. Misinformation is just somebody really

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Speaker 4: not understanding the science of medicine. Any one of us

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Speaker 4: has been guilty of creating it. You know, if you've

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Speaker 4: ever been to the doctor and they told you, you know,

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Speaker 4: like some big fancy word that you did not recognize,

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Speaker 4: like gastroparesis, and you came home and you were like,

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Speaker 4: I have gastro parents, and I don't know what that means.

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Speaker 4: You've inadvertently created misinformation. Doctors, public health experts, all of

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Speaker 4: those were always dealing with having to sort of be corrective.

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Speaker 4: And it's not malicious, it's just people who aren't trained

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Speaker 4: in science won't get everything. But disinformation is an intentional

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Speaker 4: creation of information that is wrong, and it usually has

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Speaker 4: monetary value. There's usually something that someone can get out

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Speaker 4: of creating disinformation, and there's a way that they can

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Speaker 4: monetize that, either the platform or they can drive people

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Speaker 4: to purchase something. There's all different ways that they do it.

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Speaker 4: And then they also target particular populations, so they have

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Speaker 4: a design. It has a science and a design to it,

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Speaker 4: and a distribution tacked and technique. So those are the

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Speaker 4: things that I think are like the most pressing in

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Speaker 4: my mind when it comes to the like at the

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Speaker 4: very if we're going to start to unravel it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we are big over here in making sure

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Speaker 3: we understand the conversation when it comes to misinformation and disinformation.

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Speaker 1: So thank you for clarifying that.

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Speaker 3: Also, you do talk about the fact that misinformation can

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Speaker 3: happen even with people with good intentions.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 3: I think I've probably been guilty of this as well,

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Speaker 3: because you hear something that's very hyperbolic and you take

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Speaker 3: it literal because I'm a very literal person. So you

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Speaker 3: can't tell me something and then not clarify immediately because

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Speaker 3: I'll be like, what so when we do that, what

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Speaker 3: is something that you think we should how we should

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Speaker 3: handle our own giving misinformation.

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Speaker 4: I always want to encourage people, especially people with a

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Speaker 4: media platform of some sort, to really check the information

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Speaker 4: and the facts that they're sharing, and also to look

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Speaker 4: at what facts do I need to share or not

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Speaker 4: need to share, or what's the context I'm providing. The

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Speaker 4: best example I can give is I know plenty of

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Speaker 4: people on TikTok and other places that really want to

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Speaker 4: keep people informed about bird flu. The issue is is

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Speaker 4: that they're not contextualizing bird flu by talking about the

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Speaker 4: number of deaths or the number of people infected so far,

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Speaker 4: the point of transmission. These are very important heat of

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Speaker 4: components to leave out. And then also if you're really

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Speaker 4: worried about something like communicable disease, to be making video

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Speaker 4: after video after a video about bird flu, but not

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Speaker 4: making a video being really informative around the actual seasonal flu,

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Speaker 4: which we have an incredible amount of hospitalizations, a record

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Speaker 4: number of hospitalizations this year when it comes to seasonal flu,

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Speaker 4: and I just sort of think it's really misleading. I

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Speaker 4: understand why people want to be informative about bird flu

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Speaker 4: because there's a lot of unknowns, But if you're not

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Speaker 4: an expert in public health and don't understand who's tracking it,

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Speaker 4: and don't understand what the threat level is from the

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Speaker 4: perspective of someone working in public health, then you can

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Speaker 4: really kind of be distracting more than you can be informative.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: With that, With the fact that the US pulling out

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Speaker 3: of you know who, and the recent firings of so

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Speaker 3: many people from the public health and the CDC, a

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Speaker 3: lot of people are really concerned about not getting correct

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Speaker 3: or accurate information. What is some advice you would give

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Speaker 3: us lay people who has to watch your videos five

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Speaker 3: times to understand what's going on in trying to find

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Speaker 3: the most accurate and up to date health information.

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Speaker 4: I always like to remind people that they do live

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Speaker 4: in a multi layered governance space, and so you can

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Speaker 4: when it First of all, the way that it works

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Speaker 4: when it comes to tracking disease for the CDC is

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Speaker 4: the CDC works on a like a reporting up model,

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Speaker 4: And so what often happens for people or the process

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Speaker 4: is that local so like municipal and state entities usually

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Speaker 4: report up to the CDC, and the CDC gathers those

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Speaker 4: numbers and then looks at trends and then does outward

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Speaker 4: reporting nationally. Right, So the good news is is that

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Speaker 4: the things that are being reported or tracked depending on

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Speaker 4: where you live. Now, the caveat I will say here

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Speaker 4: is that not all municipalities are treated equal. But depending

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Speaker 4: on where you live, your local health department is just

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Speaker 4: as in the know as the CDC, if not more so,

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Speaker 4: because they're doing the reporting up for the CDC to

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Speaker 4: like an EIS officer or other folks. So I would

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Speaker 4: encourage people to actually be more exploratory with their local

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Speaker 4: again like city health department or their county health department

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Speaker 4: or their state health department. For folks who feel like

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Speaker 4: they can't trust those entities either, and I understand why,

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Speaker 4: I would also look to nonpartisan organizations. I've pointed out

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Speaker 4: places like the APHA CSTE, which is like the Council

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Speaker 4: of State and Territorial Epidemiologists. Those are some organizations I

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Speaker 4: think off the top, there's an organization called NASDAD that

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Speaker 4: focuses mainly on HIV and STIs. So these organizations are

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Speaker 4: non partisan, but also they are private entities. They do

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Speaker 4: government contracting, so they have a lot of good relationships

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Speaker 4: with state, municipal and federal public health experts. But you

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Speaker 4: can also sign up for the WHO newsletter use an

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Speaker 4: individual can interface with WHO yourself. A lot of people

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Speaker 4: don't realize that they can do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah again, TikTok novel. Well I'm so, I'm so one TikTok.

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Speaker 1: I gotta stop.

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Speaker 4: But newsletters always kind of for new I always want

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Speaker 4: to encourage people to sign up for newsletters when it

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Speaker 4: comes to public health and informing yourself.

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Speaker 1: That's such a great idea.

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Speaker 3: I forget about newsletters like this is in the age

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Speaker 3: of social media, and even though I grew up in

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Speaker 3: the age of newsletters and actual newspapers, I still kind

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Speaker 3: of forget.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, that does exist.

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Speaker 4: Look at this.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a lot in this conversation. You again,

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about some of the series that

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Speaker 3: you've done because you do a great job. And talking

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Speaker 3: about health and policy, you're doing a great job. And

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Speaker 3: talking about black history. You just talked about disability and

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Speaker 3: the Black Panthers and all like what so much, so

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Speaker 3: much great information. So listeners, if you don't, if you haven't,

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Speaker 3: you need to go walk in. But I do want

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Speaker 3: to kind of get it in some of the negativity,

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Speaker 3: and we're going to come to positive too, but just

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Speaker 3: because you know, we do the bad news version and

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Speaker 3: the good news. So historically and today, society and governments

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Speaker 3: for the most part have ignored or erased women and

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Speaker 3: marginalized people when it comes to public health, illness, sicknesses,

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Speaker 3: and safety in general. What are some things you've seen

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Speaker 3: during your career or even in your studies that are

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Speaker 3: concerning in this area.

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Speaker 4: The thing that concerns me the most is actually stigma.

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Speaker 4: Stigma for certain populations and stigma for certain public health conditions.

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Speaker 4: So the two that I would give as examples is.

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Speaker 4: The first stigma I would give is around like sex workers.

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Speaker 4: I think there's a huge amount I mean no, I

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Speaker 4: don't think I know that there's a huge man stigma

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Speaker 4: around that being the way that people engage in their

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Speaker 4: like you know, commerce exchange. I do like to remind

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Speaker 4: everyone that all of us who do labor are exchanging

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Speaker 4: our labor and our bodies for money. We're just not

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Speaker 4: exchanging a particular kind of labor for money. But the

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Speaker 4: stigma that really ensnares and in circles sex workers is

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Speaker 4: really insidious because we a lot of us buy into it.

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Speaker 4: A lot of us are very paternalistic, and so the

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Speaker 4: way that we talk about public health and sex workers

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Speaker 4: still sort of demands controlling people's bodies or imperiling the

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Speaker 4: way that people make money to pay their bills that

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Speaker 4: they may be comfortable with and they are consenting to

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Speaker 4: and they like doing. It's very easy to have a

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Speaker 4: conversation with people around sex work and people not wanting

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Speaker 4: to do it. It's very uncomfortable to have a conversation

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Speaker 4: with people around sex work, and how do we protect

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Speaker 4: folks who do want to be doing that work, how

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Speaker 4: do we interface with them in a way that's just

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Speaker 4: like morally benign. We want to really moralize these things

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Speaker 4: when we talk about stigma. And then the other one

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Speaker 4: is like things like STIs, particularly STIs that are very

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Speaker 4: easy to transmit and transenda and end up with Like

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Speaker 4: so things like chlamydia, for example, it's a very treatable STI.

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Speaker 4: It's very easy to transmit if you've had sexual contact

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Speaker 4: with someone. But we've still really highly stigmatized someone who

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Speaker 4: has a history of having caught or transmitted chlamydia. We

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Speaker 4: don't have the same stigmatization for things like the common cold,

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Speaker 4: we don't have the same We don't stigmatize someone who's

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Speaker 4: given us COVID even though they've you know, done some

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Speaker 4: real serious harm. But it's because we know the transmission

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Speaker 4: point that we've really stigmatized sti's and that leads into

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Speaker 4: other things too, like more chronic conditions like herpes and HIV.

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Speaker 4: When we stigmatize things, it means it's hard to treat

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Speaker 4: or care for them. I would love to see in

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Speaker 4: public health we get to a point where we ask

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Speaker 4: people about the work that they do, and someone can

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Speaker 4: reveal that they do sex work and it has no

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Speaker 4: moral bearings on how they're treated. And I would really

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Speaker 4: love to see at a day and age where somebody

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Speaker 4: can go into clinical space and talk about their past

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Speaker 4: history or their current experience with a chronic STI or

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Speaker 4: a chronic disease that they acquired through sexual transmission, and

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Speaker 4: it also be morally benign, and we treat it the

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Speaker 4: same way we treat someone living with chronic cancer or

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Speaker 4: someone with You know that they need a certain kind

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Speaker 4: of care, but it doesn't have bearing on how they're

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Speaker 4: going to be treated. I think that's what's Those are

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Speaker 4: the things that are super concerning and in the current

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Speaker 4: politicized the thing that really concerns me overall is how

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Speaker 4: we politicize public health, and especially how we politicize marginalized

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Speaker 4: folks or vulnerable populations. On top of that, right, and

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Speaker 4: the neglect of things like people with disability and the

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Speaker 4: weaponization of things like the weaponization of like anti trans

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Speaker 4: rhetoric to try and tear down Section five oh four,

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Speaker 4: for example, which is for disabilities. It's a protection for

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Speaker 4: folks with disabilities. These things don't live in bubbles and isolation,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of these things where they all dump

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Speaker 4: out is public health.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, coming to the positive, what are some of

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Speaker 2: the more encouraging things that you have seen.

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Speaker 4: In public health? Yeah? Oh man, there's like so many.

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Speaker 4: I think that I love that you asked this because

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Speaker 4: I love talking about how amazing public health is first

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Speaker 4: of all, a lot of public health practitioners, a lot

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Speaker 4: of people have become more interested in public health as

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Speaker 4: a profession. I love that I've been seeing a lot

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Speaker 4: more mixed methodology and public health research, and this is

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Speaker 4: super important to talk about causation, especially around things like

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Speaker 4: racial disparities in public health. Historically, people have done research

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Speaker 4: in public health where they primarily researched disparities but didn't

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Speaker 4: sort of stopped there, and so we'd often hear like, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know, maternal health, like maternal mortality statistics are really

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Speaker 4: bad for black women, and they're you know, different for

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Speaker 4: this group and this group. But more and more researchers

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Speaker 4: have started to realize that if they're going to talk

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Speaker 4: about health disparities, especially racially, then they need to also

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Speaker 4: point out that the cause isn't race itself, like biologically

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Speaker 4: or inherently, it's racism in a system. And so that

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Speaker 4: requires less quantitative methodology and also qualitative methodology interviewing focused groups,

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Speaker 4: surveying on top of the quantitative work that you want

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Speaker 4: to be doing. So I'm really excited to see what

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Speaker 4: I think is going to be much more incisive and

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Speaker 4: insightful research from folks. And then the other thing too,

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Speaker 4: is like like biomedical breakthroughs, like the fact that you

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Speaker 4: can have you have injectibles. I mean recently it was

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Speaker 4: just like National HIV Day and we have injectables now

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Speaker 4: for HIV care. That means someone can come in once

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Speaker 4: every three months for an injectible and managed to maintain

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Speaker 4: ANNDIE an undetectable viral load. I mean that is such

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Speaker 4: a feat in a generation from back in the nineties

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Speaker 4: where people were having to take sort of fistfuls of

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Speaker 4: medication just to stay alive and the side effects were very,

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Speaker 4: very aggressive, painful and debilitating. So there's amazing work happening

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Speaker 4: in care and treatment that we're able to promote in

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Speaker 4: public health.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I feel like we need balances.

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Speaker 3: We need to know the truth and dark, but we

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Speaker 3: need to know that things are happening whether or not

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Speaker 3: we see it. You know, you did bring up the

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Speaker 3: whole thing with the disability acts and what's going down

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Speaker 3: in public health, and I've seen more and more people

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Speaker 3: coming out like this is this is a whole conversation,

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Speaker 3: an abless conversation that's using trans people as a weapon

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Speaker 3: against this disabled people's and how it comes down to,

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Speaker 3: as you and I are having a conversation before about

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Speaker 3: eugenics and what this looks like in general, what are

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Speaker 3: some things that we need to be watching for as

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Speaker 3: they're having this big conversation about this.

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Speaker 4: I think the weaponization of different vulnerable populations against other

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Speaker 4: groups is a big one, and not just like in

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Speaker 4: how we stigmatize certain groups, but in like the section

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Speaker 4: five h four is such a good example because it's

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Speaker 4: being weaponized in an attempt to be cruel to trans people,

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Speaker 4: we may inadvertently dismantle something that it has been an

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Speaker 4: incredible necessity for rights to access for a number of

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Speaker 4: number of things. Another of supports resources, et cetera for

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Speaker 4: folks with disabilities, and so our transphobia has a huge

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Speaker 4: cost and is going to be the right for someone

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Speaker 4: with a disability to have assistive technology provided to them

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Speaker 4: in school, or the right to access certain like housing

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Speaker 4: or what like all of these ways that section five

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Speaker 4: or four has been used since nineteen seventy seven, and

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Speaker 4: so I think that's the thing I really want people

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Speaker 4: to watch out for, is that you're not understanding a

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Speaker 4: population like even if you don't agree with sex work.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to use that because it's the one that

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Speaker 4: makes people the most activated. Even if you don't agree

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Speaker 4: morally with sex work, you have to understand that the

436
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 4: way that we address the population that does sex work

437
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 4: has rippling effect to our rights and can dismantle our

438
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 4: rights in an attempt to what like, punish someone because

439
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 4: they the way that they access like some sort of

440
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 4: financial gain or like the money they need to pay

441
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 4: their bills is far different than what we're willing to do.

442
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 4: I don't know, Like, what do you like? I guess

443
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 4: the question I would ask anyone is what are you

444
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 4: on you, on your physical self or in your life

445
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 4: willing to give up to punish someone else? And most

446
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 4: people's answer is nothing, Right, would you give up like

447
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 4: three of your fingers to be able to punish a

448
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 4: trans person? No? And when you make it clear like that,

449
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 4: I think then people sort of get it. But in

450
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 4: it when it's when it's sort of wrapped in the

451
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 4: sort of strange enigma of policy and legislation and lawsuits

452
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,239
Speaker 4: and case law, a lot of people are more than

453
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 4: comfortable to sacrifice the good portion of themselves.

454
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 3: Right right, all in the name of whatever their morality,

455
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 3: which is a whole different conversation. I find it interesting,

456
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: and this is just a sidebar because I've been noticing

457
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 3: as on a blue sky, people going back and forth

458
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: and being in this conversation being like, no, this is

459
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 3: not an accident and just trying to get like trying

460
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 3: to punish trans people. This is purposeful in wrapping everybody

461
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 3: together in order to have the supremacist idea, and people

462
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 3: are not realizing it and try and getting too much

463
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 3: credit to the opposition and saying that.

464
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: They made a mistake.

465
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 3: No, they did this on purpose, and we need to

466
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 3: be very vigilant about the fact that this has always

467
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 3: been a part of the plan. And when it comes

468
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 3: to white supremacy, it is about eugenics. They really think

469
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 3: that there is this perfect setup, which is hilarious in

470
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 3: itself because you're like, your narcissism is showing, and that's

471
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 3: the diagnosis.

472
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 4: Just so you know, we're not experiencing a perfect world

473
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 4: with you in charge.

474
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 3: Right right right, We are falling apart, and I don't

475
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 3: know what to do and I cry a lot.

476
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding, Uh, I'm not kidding.

477
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 3: But so here in the State of Georgia, I'm sure

478
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 3: you've been aware. We've watched the government not only ignore

479
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 3: the health officials and people about reproductive care and the rights,

480
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 3: but literally have dismantled almost any accountability and data by

481
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 3: just disbanding things like the maternal mortality boards and counsels

482
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 3: because they are telling too much truth and they did

483
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 3: not like it. So for us in here in the trenches,

484
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 3: such as in the state of Georgia, can you talk

485
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: to us about how to get the most accurate information

486
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 3: about tactics like this, like how we need to be

487
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 3: aware that this is one of the bigger ways that

488
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 3: they have used against us who are trying to get

489
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 3: reproductive access.

490
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 4: Well, I think the first thing is, first of all,

491
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 4: you have some really I mean consummate experts. The first

492
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 4: thing I want to tell people is that when you're

493
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 4: elected officials who are not experts in these things, they

494
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 4: are not career professionals. Right, I like to tell people

495
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 4: all the time. You know that I've worked in government

496
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 4: and like, but I've never been a politician. And that's

497
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 4: on purpose, because I want to be a civil servant

498
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 4: to I want to care for my fellow the folks

499
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 4: that I live in and around. So The first thing

500
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 4: I would say to folks in Georgia is that, like,

501
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 4: you have consummate experts in Fulton County. I mean, I've

502
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 4: worked with their population and there, and they do all

503
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 4: that they can to do the best work within the

504
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 4: confines and the messy confines of the ever chaotic policy

505
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 4: that people who want to politicize these things create. So

506
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 4: I think the first thing is encouraging people to have

507
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 4: we sort of throw the baby out with the bathwater, right,

508
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 4: and we're like, Okay, the state of Georgia and it's

509
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 4: elected officials have made all of these designs and horrible

510
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 4: choices and appointed these terrible leaders or whoever. But we

511
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 4: then extend that hatred to anyone who works in these capacities.

512
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,239
Speaker 4: And a substantial portion of the people that work for

513
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 4: you in government work for you. They they really do

514
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 4: want to do the best that they can, even in

515
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 4: these conditions. And so I think being able to be

516
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 4: more precise with our hatreds is the first suggestion I have.

517
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 4: Because I'm an a one hater when it comes to

518
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 4: a lot of politicians, you know, if they have zero haters,

519
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 4: that's not true. Because even in debt, I plan to

520
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 4: haunt them. But so, yeah, I think because I see

521
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 4: that a lot on TikTok as people be come very

522
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 4: like generalizing. They're like, oh, all of pharma is bad,

523
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 4: all of the federal government is bad. And it's like, no,

524
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 4: there are a number of bioengineers who really want to

525
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 4: cure cancer working in pharma. They're not setting the pricing,

526
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 4: they're not jacking up, you know, the cost of like

527
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 4: obscure random you know, medications that are that they've you know,

528
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 4: put a patent on, like they're not doing that. Get

529
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 4: with the c suite, you know, and we need people

530
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 4: who want to make medications to cure cancer. We need them,

531
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 4: so trust. How to be decisive with our hate, with

532
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 4: our hateration in the dancery is probably my number one.

533
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 3: I wait, I need to note that how to be

534
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 3: precise with oteration in the dancery.

535
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I need to write that down somewhere.

536
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 3: You know.

537
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 4: I don't want to tell people stout being haters. I

538
00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 4: want you to. I want you to do this still

539
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 4: and full gets your hatred right, and then to also

540
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 4: know who's working on behalf of you, who really is

541
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 4: and how you how they are, how they're trying to

542
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 4: work within that. The other thing I would say is

543
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 4: that there are plenty again of like grassroots and larger

544
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 4: scale organizations that are collecting this information. So like I

545
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 4: know in Philadelphia we have like Pew Trust with there's

546
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 4: like the Kaiser Family Foundation, Like these are organizations that

547
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 4: their whole business or the whole work that they do

548
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 4: is still to produce this well researched like reports on

549
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 4: the conditions of these things. And so you may have

550
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 4: a look, I don't know specifically for Georgia, but you

551
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 4: may have and I would assume you do a like

552
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 4: a reproductive justice organization that is collecting that data in

553
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 4: some way, shape or form to draft reporting that you

554
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 4: all can trust and consume and has peer review to

555
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 4: it and et cetera. And it also may then you

556
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 4: may have to also become a little renegade and know

557
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 4: where to ask for it. I will say this, maybe

558
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 4: they dismantled your maternal mortality like what was it your

559
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 4: maternal mortality board, But that doesn't mean that your local

560
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,959
Speaker 4: health departments aren't doing annual reporting. It just made it

561
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 4: means that you have to read like your mortality like

562
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 4: what do we call them here in Philly? Or in

563
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 4: Pennsylvania we call it like we have like a like

564
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 4: a report and annual report on deaths and cause of

565
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 4: death is still going to be in there, so it

566
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 4: may take more. Again, I hate these suggestions always kind

567
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 4: of suck because I know that our attention spans are shorter,

568
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 4: and so if something's not being handed to us directly,

569
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 4: us having to go on a little bit of a

570
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 4: hunt is harder for people. But it's going to be

571
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 4: so important that we start to stretch our attention spans

572
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 4: and be come a little more hunter gatherer unfortunately. But

573
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 4: it's there. That's the thing that's important. It's there.

574
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's a great reminder I do

575
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 3: forget that we sometimes I forget when I look at

576
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 3: the big picture about all of the tragic things that

577
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 3: are happening, and all are the horrifying things that the

578
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 3: local people are doing a lot. We definitely have a

579
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 3: friend of the show, part Canaan, who has been working

580
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: so hard in the state of Georgia trying to get

581
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 3: some of these information out. And I know there are

582
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 3: local organizations like ARC Southeast here here in Georgia, but

583
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 3: it's sometimes like ah, so the focus, So thank you

584
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 3: for reminding me about that that local is so important,

585
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 3: like we do. We have talked about that quite a bit,

586
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: but sometimes it's hard to focus.

587
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 4: And fund them too. That's the other thing is these

588
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 4: organizations because they're not getting federal grants, are because they've

589
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 4: given up you know, state grants or whatever. Because they're

590
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 4: continuing to do this sort of reporting means that they

591
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 4: now are doing it with a less And so I

592
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 4: also want to encourage people to fund these local organizations

593
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 4: that are doing this work for you on the ground,

594
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 4: like in where you are and where you live.

595
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 3: No, that's that's definitely a definite because we need these organizations.

596
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 3: And with kind of all of this again, recently watching

597
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 3: a few of your episodes, you talked about social autopsy

598
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 3: and I love that phrasing, and I was like, oh, oh, okay,

599
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 3: can you because like the example you gave was people

600
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 3: manipulating content in order to cancel someone, So can you

601
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 3: kind of talk about what you mean about social autopsy?

602
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,919
Speaker 1: And I know it's an actual actual term, but new

603
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: to me.

604
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 4: So social autopsy is one of my favorite qualitative methodologies.

605
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 4: You don't hear it so much. It was coined by

606
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 4: I forget the name of the researchers a sociologist. But

607
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 4: you see it in My favorite example is the book Heat,

608
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 4: which is a social autopsy, and that's I think the

609
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 4: first time you see that word used in a larger scale.

610
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 4: But it was about the Chicago heat wave that had

611
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 4: really detrimental It's a public health book detrimental effects. And

612
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 4: so social autopsy is when you see something has happened

613
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 4: and you decide that you are going to sort of

614
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 4: unpack what happened and go back in time looking at

615
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 4: the pieces that came together for this thing to happen.

616
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's language for it. I think in the

617
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 4: political realm there's a similar term. I think they use

618
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 4: autopsy too, to look at like when there's like a

619
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 4: when you've lost a like an election, for example, you

620
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,720
Speaker 4: look back and say, like, where did we go wrong?

621
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 4: What components were in place right? Because there's so many

622
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 4: moving parts that contributed to the perfect storm of this moment.

623
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 4: And so I encourage people to do a social autopsy

624
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 4: on things when before being before being like influenced and

625
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 4: the example, I know that the video you're talking about

626
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 4: because it was a viral one, and to also point

627
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 4: out that like people are not happy with me. People

628
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 4: really want to personalize when I do things like that,

629
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 4: when I contextualize the timeline, and again, like I'm not

630
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 4: pointing out and I think I say it several times,

631
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 4: I'm not pointing out whether or I think this person's

632
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 4: a good or bad person. I don't live in the

633
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 4: world the dichotomist world of good or bad. But I

634
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 4: want people to be careful when they make content, and

635
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 4: I want people to be careful when they consume it.

636
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 4: And so backtracking, so when you come across a video

637
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 4: where someone's like clip someone's this is very, very infamous.

638
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 4: I see this all the time when it comes to creators,

639
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 4: where people clip a certain piece of a video and

640
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 4: they clip it and they don't contextualize it, and they

641
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 4: don't tag the creator, or they leave out the watermark

642
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 4: so that you can go and look at it for yourself,

643
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 4: and they know that most people won't. I've had this

644
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 4: happen to me too as well, which you know, like

645
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 4: it's been absurd. But I want to encourage people to

646
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 4: not just take people at the clip, go and consume

647
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 4: the entire video, because in this podcast, for example, in

648
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 4: this exact moment, I could say, you know, well, everybody sucks,

649
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 4: and if you only clipped everybody sucks, then you would

650
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 4: be like Evan's anti humanist.

651
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 3: You know.

652
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: I agree, though, advice if you.

653
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 4: Put it, if you put it in context and realize

654
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 4: it was an example statement that I made, then you

655
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 4: realize that it's not that I'm anti humanist. Again. I

656
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 4: want to encourage people. I know it's so easy to do,

657
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 4: especially when we're on social media or when we're consuming

658
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 4: media which is just endless scrolling, and we're sort of

659
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 4: doing it to be a little mindless. I want to

660
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 4: encourage people to stop and say, like, okay, well, if

661
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 4: this is catching my eye, I should take that extra

662
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 4: step and like search up the original video or click

663
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 4: on the original video and watch it end to end

664
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 4: and come to my own conclusions. Because there's a reason

665
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 4: why someone has clipped somebody the way they have, and

666
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 4: I think that's it can be really cool. It can

667
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 4: be accidental. I don't know. I'm not going to impose that.

668
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, that's and there's a lot and to

669
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 3: take the time to actually take an autopsy, as is implied,

670
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 3: is a whole other manner.

671
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 4: Well, it's all there. I think That's the other thing too,

672
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 4: is using all the tools that are there, Like, is

673
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 4: this something someone said in response to this? I see

674
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 4: this all. I see this often too when people are

675
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,479
Speaker 4: like a number of creators recently have been complaining about

676
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 4: this where people have been chastising them for things they

677
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 4: did not do, and it's because people didn't look at

678
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 4: things like timestamps. One of the things that's really important

679
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 4: to think about with like Instagram and TikTok, and it's

680
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 4: very very popular now, is that your FYP, your newsfeed,

681
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 4: whatever it's called, is asynchronous, which means that if you're

682
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 4: scrolling and you've come across a video where a creator

683
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 4: is crying and saying, oh, someone's you know, I've been

684
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 4: someone's been talking mean about me and they you know,

685
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 4: they've they doxed me and and have been critiquing how

686
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 4: I painted my living room walls. And then you scroll

687
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 4: for a little while and you come across another creator

688
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 4: who is talking about like, oh, you know, I had

689
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 4: to hold somebody account all the other day and it

690
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 4: was really difficult, but you know it was important to

691
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,919
Speaker 4: like connect and like and they're talking in it. Those

692
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 4: videos aren't necessarily connected to each other but we can

693
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 4: make a lot of assumptions based on thinking that those

694
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 4: people have a relationship, based on thinking that those one

695
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 4: person's talking about the other because one video followed the other,

696
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 4: and that's not true. The other thing that's really tricky

697
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 4: on TikTok is that little like suggested search bar, And

698
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 4: it's so strange because it'll suggest things that are really

699
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 4: unrelated to the content, but you then think it is.

700
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 4: So it'll be like, you know, a man killed by

701
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 4: elephant and you're like, wait a minute, is this video

702
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 4: about a man that was killed by an elephant? And

703
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 4: you're like, So, to not be spoon fed things, but

704
00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 4: to actually be proactive. Look at timestamps on videos, look

705
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 4: at the way someone's dressed. You can usually tell if

706
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 4: a creator made a bundle of videos and then you know,

707
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 4: release them over a course of several hours or days.

708
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 4: Look at all of those things before you hop to

709
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 4: a judgment or relate things to each other.

710
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 3: Good advice And then, of course, also you've done a

711
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 3: series about trusted resources, can you give us a quick

712
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 3: rundown on how to vet for a good trusted resource?

713
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 4: Online is now it's getting more and more difficult. I

714
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,720
Speaker 4: always like to encourage people to first start with looking

715
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 4: for open access journal articles or research and reports. And

716
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 4: the reason why it's not because I think that those

717
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 4: entities are like smarter than everybody else whatever. It's because

718
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 4: the process is arduous to get something published in like

719
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 4: Gamma or like you know, the Disabilities Core literally or

720
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 4: any of these journals these like med or their stem

721
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 4: style journals, or even on like a website like NASUM,

722
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 4: which is like the National something Science Education and Medicine.

723
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 4: These entities have a high standard for peer review. Does

724
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 4: this mean everything? Does you know? Some stuff gets by?

725
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 4: And that's there's all sorts of reasons why nepotism can

726
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 4: be one, cronyism can be one, but a high standard

727
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 4: of peer review. The next thing I will say is

728
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,720
Speaker 4: that if you cannot find an open access article from

729
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 4: a reputable journal, to also look at citations that people

730
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 4: have used. So I even say this with books because

731
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 4: people don't realize that. You're like, I see people do

732
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 4: this all the time and they're like, oh, I learned

733
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 4: it in a book, and I'm like, yeah, well, books

734
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 4: are edited, but they're not peer reviewed and it and

735
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 4: that's really hard to say because there are some books

736
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 4: I love, but they are biased. They're they're designed with bias.

737
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 4: And so when you're reading a book that was a

738
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 4: research project, because oftentimes people will turn their research into

739
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 4: a book, I see that with I think it's Catherine

740
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 4: Eden's Living on two dollars a day is a good example.

741
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 4: She makes turns her ethnography, which is a research project,

742
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 4: into a book. But she also cite has citations in

743
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 4: her bibliography. Right, So explore the citations, because that's going

744
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 4: to tell you a whole lot of how reputable something

745
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 4: is is did they cite their work correctly? And who

746
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 4: did they cite? If they started to cite a bunch

747
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 4: of gobbledegook, you know, then yeah, that's that starts to

748
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 4: give you a hint. I see this a lot on

749
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 4: like pseudo intellectual or pseudoscientific materials and disinformation websites. They'll

750
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 4: have citations, and their citations are actually cyclical or circular,

751
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 4: so they'll cite themselves a lot, they'll cite other people

752
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 4: that have cited them, so often do a lot of

753
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 4: back and forth citation that mimics scientific research, but it's

754
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 4: not real. And then the other thing I will say

755
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 4: is that you know, if you can look for things

756
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 4: that are posted to reputable institutions, so universities is always

757
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 4: a really good one. Universities love to post sourcing. You

758
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 4: can always check with your local library, librarians or I

759
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 4: don't know why we've lost the love of librarians, but

760
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 4: librarians are actually really great sources to ask because they're

761
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 4: taught library science, so they're taught to identify effective and

762
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 4: ineffective sourcing. And a lot of people don't realize this

763
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 4: is that if there is a resource that you that's

764
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 4: behind a paywall, you can request it from your local

765
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 4: library and they can access it for free for you.

766
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 4: So if there's like a research like paper that you

767
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 4: want to get a hold of, your local librarian can

768
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 4: get it for you and you can request it. There's

769
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 4: no cost to you, and I think there might be

770
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 4: a printing cost if you want it printed. I don't

771
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 4: know with each library, but yeah, library like library science.

772
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 4: We have to lean into your librarians. They are Please

773
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 4: let's in twenty twenty five, let's rediscover the magic of librarians.

774
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 3: Thanks coming back around. I think it's trending because we

775
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 3: love some libraries right here.

776
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 4: We love and library scientists you.

777
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 1: Know, they have awful masters of them. What they have

778
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: to go through isn't tend.

779
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 4: If there's anybody who knows citation, it is them, like ask.

780
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 1: Them go to research advice. That's why you're here.

781
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 2: Oh, that's awesome.

782
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 4: We do love libraries.

783
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: We're here.

784
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 2: We love libraries. So you already gave us some examples.

785
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 2: But going off that question, who are some people that

786
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: you would recommend for us and our listeners to follow

787
00:44:59,280 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: or seek out?

788
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 4: Well, it is Black History Month and I am a bioethicist,

789
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 4: so I would be remiss if I didn't shout out

790
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 4: some amazing great bioethicis and people who do work that

791
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 4: I like to say is bioethical in theory. Right, some

792
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 4: of them are sociologists, but that's okay. We all hang out.

793
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 4: We're all girls. You know. Some of my favorite is

794
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 4: doctor Keisherat. Doctor Kisherre is a bioethicis. She is the

795
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 4: person who's coined the concept black bioethics. She wrote I

796
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 4: think her book is called Black Bioethics, The Black Bioethics

797
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 4: Reader or something like that. The amazing thing about doctor

798
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 4: Keisherret's work, anything that she's published, is actually published at

799
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 4: a very accessible reading level. So her the book that

800
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 4: she has about Black bioethics is written at like a

801
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 4: sixth grade reading level. It's very consumable and you can

802
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 4: learn very easily, and it's very interesting. She's also the

803
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 4: editor for the blog Bioethics Today, so I also want

804
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 4: to encourage people to explore Bioeths Today if you're curious

805
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 4: about bioethics. There's all sorts of bioethicists talking about all

806
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 4: sorts of things in that blog. It's so fascinating. I

807
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 4: love reading it. I have some of my favorites up there.

808
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 4: I've also written for them on occasion, shameless plug. The

809
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 4: other one is, of course Dorothy Roberts. Doctor Dorothy Roberts

810
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 4: is a sociologist but also a bioethicist, and she's written

811
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 4: Killing the Black Body, and she talks a lot about

812
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 4: maternal mortality and black maternal health. She is like one

813
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 4: of the chairs here and you Penn in Philadelphia, so

814
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 4: very very close. Very one day I'll cross her path.

815
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 4: One day I'll be important enough to know her. Harriet Washington.

816
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 4: A lot of people know Harriet Washington's work because she

817
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 4: wrote Medical Apartheid, which sort of put Black bioethics conceptually

818
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 4: on the map because it was such a best selling

819
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 4: book and so many people cite it in like African

820
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 4: American history. But she also does an amazing series of

821
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 4: writing on things like consent, and so I want to

822
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 4: encourage people to write her up to read her other books.

823
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 4: And she also has a book about environmental health and

824
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 4: Black Black disparities in health. So she's really great to

825
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 4: explore beyond medical apartheid, which you should read. And then

826
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 4: the last one I want to mention is Ruha Benjamin.

827
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,760
Speaker 4: And the last two is rue Benjamin is a really

828
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 4: great sociologist who talks a lot about inequality in tech.

829
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 4: She talks a lot about things like algorithms and bias,

830
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 4: race based tech and science. She talks a lot about

831
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 4: she I think she's been more exploring more things like

832
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 4: AI and the disparity of AI and things like labor

833
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 4: and labor disparities and labor oppression. And then there's a

834
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 4: Landra Nelson. And the reason why I bring up a

835
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 4: Landa Nelson is because I feel like I her all

836
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 4: the time. In February, because she wrote the entire book

837
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 4: Body and Soul about the Black Panthers health justice work,

838
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 4: and she just I mean end to end. The amount

839
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 4: of work that the Black Panthers endeavored in health justice

840
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 4: is not talked about enough, and it makes me so

841
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 4: ill because it's like their consummate, like magnum opus work.

842
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 4: And we just constantly bring up the fact that they

843
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 4: like marched around in like black beerys and like guns,

844
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 4: which is fine, like that, you know, militancy is you know,

845
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 4: this is not a judgment on that. But the longer

846
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 4: standing work has been their work in health justice. Some

847
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 4: of the clinics that they set up in the nineteen

848
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 4: seventies are still operating today and they are the reason

849
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 4: why we have some of the more systemic public health

850
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 4: designs around things like testing for sickle cell or doing

851
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 4: lead testing in homes. They design those systems and the

852
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 4: US government federally adopted those designs later on. So Laundry

853
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 4: Nelson's book, she is a a sociologist as well. She

854
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 4: put it all together at the history of the Black

855
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 4: Panthers in Health Justice. So explore her work for sure.

856
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: Trying to get all this new.

857
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,399
Speaker 3: You see me like pulling up the names, like yep,

858
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 3: got get that book, Gotta get this book, and gotta

859
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 3: get this one making us but.

860
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 4: It gets good.

861
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 3: And you know what, with all of this, I again

862
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 3: I told you at the very beginning, I'm so impressed

863
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 3: by the fact that you come in in these really

864
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 3: deep and hard conversations and do it with such eloquence.

865
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 3: But not only but like calm. The calm is what

866
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 3: I'm most impressed by. I honestly like you do it

867
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 3: as an educator. I'm sure you're like, yeah, this is

868
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 3: what we do. Uh. When I read things like this

869
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 3: and it feels like injustice, I go on a rampage

870
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 3: post coursing, maybe my face turning red. And you do

871
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 3: it in such a way that's so educational. So it's approachable,

872
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 3: in a way that even though it takes me a

873
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 3: few few listens to really grasp it, it makes me

874
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 3: want to learn more. But with that, I know it

875
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 3: has to be stressful. I know this work is stressful.

876
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: I know this timing is really really, really stressful.

877
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 3: So with all of that, we always have to ask,

878
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 3: what do you do when you need to take a break.

879
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 3: What is your Uh I'm not gonna say necessarily like

880
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:28,399
Speaker 3: self care, but.

881
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: What how do you detox when you do that?

882
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 4: I I'm a lover and a traveler usually, but when

883
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 4: I can't afford that's high brow stuff, you know. But

884
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 4: when I'm really trying to, like you said, detox and

885
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 4: relax out, I really am a huge lover of graphic novels.

886
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 4: I love reading graphic novels. I love independent pressings I have.

887
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 4: I love the illustrations. I love all sorts of like

888
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 4: sci fi based one. I mean, there's this so much.

889
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 4: The graphic novel world is so fascinating because growing up

890
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 4: is like a little black queer like a fab nerd.

891
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 4: One of the first places I could see myself like

892
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 4: reflected as like an interesting character was actually in comic

893
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 4: books and in and maybe not specifically in all those ways.

894
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 4: But the first time I saw queer people as like

895
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 4: interesting dynamic, not just villains and like coded villains, was

896
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 4: like in comic books, especially independent ones, and it's only

897
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,439
Speaker 4: gotten better since then. I would say that a lot

898
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 4: of the comic book world, weirdly enough, is like twenty

899
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 4: years ahead of us when it comes to like perception

900
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 4: and how we display certain groups. That's not to say

901
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 4: that there's not comic book artists and writers who are

902
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 4: like absolute jerks, but you can find your story, and

903
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 4: I could. I could find my story pretty early on

904
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 4: in comic books, and I just never stopped loving any

905
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 4: exploring them. So they usually when I'm like done with

906
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 4: the day, I like to go through my very extensive

907
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 4: and embarrassingly like organized graphic novel and comic book collection

908
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 4: and like reread things. And then I also sometimes like

909
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 4: to read things that are more amorphic or like more

910
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 4: like I love culture. I love learning about different groups

911
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 4: and populations and history and so like right now, I'm

912
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 4: currently reading a book about heaven and Hell and the

913
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 4: way that heaven and hell have been imagined across the world,

914
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 4: and it says a lot about the human condition for

915
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 4: how we imagine heaven and hell or paradise and purgatory,

916
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 4: and it's been very fascinating. Pretty quickly, you.

917
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 3: Fit into our world, Annie's I'm like over here chopping

918
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 3: at the book because we love a good comic graphic

919
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 3: novel it I love it.

920
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 2: We do. And Samantha knows a lot about religions, so fits.

921
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: Like I said, month every week, come on the way that.

922
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 4: We could sit here and talk about what I just

923
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 4: learned about, which was infernal cartography.

924
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 3: Please please okay, no, we don't have time stop why

925
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 3: so that means we get to have.

926
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 2: Yes, you should definitely come back. We would oh gosh.

927
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: I wouldn't talk about every.

928
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 4: Day every day.

929
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll negotiate it later later, But in the meantime,

930
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 2: where can the good listeners find you?

931
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 4: They can find me on TikTok I am Evan the bioethicist.

932
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 4: E v n the bioethicist on TikTok I come up

933
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 4: right away if you google bioethics. I think I'm the

934
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 4: only person that uses that hashtag sadness. And then the

935
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 4: other place that I've recently started to build up is

936
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 4: a Patreon. There is a free side of it, like

937
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 4: a free membership. I don't like paid barriers. There is

938
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 4: a five dollars supporter membership that people can get into

939
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 4: if they want to get like longer form more like

940
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 4: curated content that I'm working on now. It's not up

941
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:15,399
Speaker 4: there yet, but I'm working on now, but it will

942
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 4: be behind that five dollars a month little minimum paywall,

943
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 4: and that's mainly to pay for trying to produce like

944
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 4: higher quality more than me just talking at my phone content.

945
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 4: If people aren't into TikTok I just repost the tiktoks

946
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 4: to the free membership section of Patreon. A lot of

947
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 4: people like that better because sometimes people don't like you know,

948
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 4: TikTok's a blessing and a curse, and when things go viral,

949
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,240
Speaker 4: you can end up with a lot of really terrible

950
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 4: vibes in the comments section and what have you. So

951
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 4: a lot of my softer hearted I want to say,

952
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 4: followers who want less of that static noise that TikTok

953
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 4: can produce, like to go to Patreon and interact with

954
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 4: Patreon instead, because those are people who are intentionally there,

955
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 4: you know, So find either one. I'm the same on

956
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:03,439
Speaker 4: both platforms.

957
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I'm going to check that out. Listeners, you

958
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 2: should check it out as well. Thank you so much

959
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 2: Evan for joining us today. It's been in delight and yes,

960
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 2: come back, come back anytime.

961
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 4: I love it. I'm interested. We could talk about the

962
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 4: non bioethics or professional things too. I'm into it. But

963
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 4: thanks for having me.

964
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 3: Yes, we'll just have an Evan corner like where you

965
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 3: come in at every so often a lot actually, I

966
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 3: love it.

967
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 2: But Listeners. In the meantime, if you would like to

968
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 2: contact us, you can you can email us at Hello

969
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,439
Speaker 2: at stuff onever told you dot com. You can find

970
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 2: us on Blue Sky at most of a Podcast, or

971
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never told you.

972
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: We're us on YouTube, We have a tea public store,

973
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 2: and we have book you can get wherever you get

974
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 2: your books. Thanks as always to our super producer, contenior

975
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 2: executive producer Maya and our contributor Joey.

976
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:53,800
Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff I

977
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: Never told you.

978
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 2: Use production to by Heart Radio. For more podcast with

979
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 2: my Heart Radio, you can check out the art Radio app,

980
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 2: Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

981
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 3: Ye