1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Oh, but there's one that I really loved, and let 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: me just see if I can find it quickly. 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 2: In April of twenty twenty two, I met photographer Jean 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 2: Polluso at her downtown Manhattan studio. 5 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: You wouldn't think, I mean, it wasn't. Oh, this is 6 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: Anna's favorite though, that's the one she liked. 7 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: That's her looking through the work she did with Anna 8 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 2: Wintour in the seventies. 9 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: Anna was on this shoot and she was up at 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: four on those days, and she would have everything lined 11 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: up and everything was perfect no matter where we went. 12 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 2: Jeane was one of the few female fashion photographers working 13 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies and side note, Jean's in her 14 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: eighties now still working as a photographer and still cool 15 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 2: as hell. Back in the day, she was one of 16 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 2: Anna's go to photographers for whatever fashion spread she was 17 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 2: working on at the time. Because of this, Jeane got 18 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: a rare glimpse of one of the most famous women 19 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 2: in fashion history before she was well, the most famous 20 00:00:58,280 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: woman in fashion history. 21 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: Come to breakfast, and she looked incredible the whole time. 22 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: I was taken back because I can't work looking nice. 23 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 2: Jean pulls up a few images from the shoot that 24 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 2: she and Anna did together in Puerto Rico back in 25 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven. 26 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: This is Puerto Rico, and we've just run out of ideas. 27 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: On this particular shoot. Jean and Anna are struggling. None 28 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 2: of the locations they'd originally scouted are working, and Anna 29 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: doesn't like their model, and they don't know what to shoot. 30 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 2: It's a bad day. They risk leaving this expensive trip 31 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: with nothing usable until Jean has an idea. 32 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: I said, look at we're running out of things here. 33 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: Let's go to the other end of the island. I hear, 34 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting there. 35 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: She and Anna pull up to a fire station on 36 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: the other side of the island. Outside there's a bunch 37 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: of guys standing around watching a literal cock fight. Jean's thrilled, Well, 38 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: maybe we could just get the fighting cocks in there 39 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: and the you know. Jean and Anna lee over setting 40 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: up the shot, and their work pays off. Gene shows 41 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: me photo after photo of this scene. The model is 42 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: a blank look, which is maybe why Anna wasn't really 43 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: into her. But because she's surrounded by these fighting birds, 44 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: the blankness, it works. The shoot's smart tongue in cheek, 45 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: high fashion, gorgeous. It's honestly one of Viva Magazine's more 46 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: striking photo spreads, which isn't surprising considering that most of 47 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: Anna Wintor's shoots were stunning during her tenure as fashion 48 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: editor of the magazine. Anna comes to Viva during a 49 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 2: tumultuous time. Its identity crisis is hitting a breaking point 50 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: and its readership numbers are in free fall, and in 51 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: a scramble to try to keep the lights on, Bob 52 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 2: Guccioni and Kathy Keaton are throwing anything they can against 53 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 2: the wall to see if it will stick, and Anna 54 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 2: Wintour she's one of Bob and Kathy's final hail Mary's. 55 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: But was Anna enough to save Viva? And was she 56 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: even up for the task? Back in Puerto Rico, it 57 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 2: was hard for Jane to tell. 58 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: What Anna would do. Is you know, I'd totally finally 59 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: get the things set up. Polaroid was right start shooting, 60 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden she would just disappear. She'd 61 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: just walk away. Now, you could say that was trust, 62 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: or you could say that was boredom. I didn't know 63 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: which it was. 64 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer Romalini and this is Stiffed. Episode seven, Win 65 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: Tour of Their Discontent, Act one, cock Fight, seventy three 66 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: things that turn a man on, celebrity food fetishes, fifty 67 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: ways to meet rich men, An astrological guide to get 68 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: giving you never ever have to break a nail again. No, 69 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 2: those are not headlines from an old Cosmo magazine you 70 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: found in your dentist's office. They're from Viva in nineteen 71 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: seventy six. By this time, Viva looks nothing like the smart, 72 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: progressive feminist porn magazine it was under editors like Betty 73 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 2: Jane and Patty Bosworth and Annie Gottlieb. Instead of being 74 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: a magazine with dix, it's now all about how to 75 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: catch one. The stories are heavily gendered, now more about 76 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: money and class, how to marry a rich guy, even 77 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: a story about how to buy a mink coat. Like 78 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: the decade when it was published, Viva's gone from being 79 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: an early seventies magazine about sexual pleasure to a late 80 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: seventies magazine about the pleasures of capitalism. Ironically, though Viva's 81 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 2: capital is actually withering. The magazine is understaffed, and it's 82 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: starved for resources too. Here's editor Robin will lane. 83 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 3: You know, it looked like we were a glossy magazine, 84 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 3: but I was basically given an inventory of articles that 85 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 3: had been assigned and purchased by my predecessors, and we 86 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 3: had like almost no budget for new articles, so we 87 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 3: had to take those articles and make something of them. 88 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: And to make things worse, Bob's up to his old 89 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: tricks again, filling Viva's pages with his Penhouse photography leftovers 90 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: and hiring more and more male writers, like Henry Miller, 91 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: who writes an essay in Viva about hating the women's 92 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: liberation movement and how it's quote harmful for women to 93 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: become immersed in politics. For a man who is known 94 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: for betting on himself and winning, Bob's hitting a period 95 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 2: of well, not quite winning anymore, especially with his non 96 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: Penhouse projects. 97 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 3: Bob had wanted to start a magazine called Brava, which 98 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: was going to be more porn they would never use 99 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 3: that word, but more risque than Penthouse, and the atmosphere 100 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 3: was changing. 101 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 4: These trends don't please some members of the feminist community, 102 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 4: who charge the pornography, which shows women and postures of 103 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 4: sexual subjugation, can lead its consumers to commit violent acts 104 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 4: against unwilling women and children. 105 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: The atmosphere is that the anti porn movement is coming 106 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: after Bob in a bigger and bigger way. We're talking 107 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: court cases. The heat is on, and it's a climate 108 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: that makes Bob feel like a new, more explicit version 109 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: of Penthouse might not be the best idea. 110 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 3: So he didn't think he could launch Bravo at that point. 111 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 3: But he had already hired an editor, a guy named 112 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 3: Ernie Baxter. 113 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 2: So now Ernie, this brand new, expensive male editor, doesn't 114 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: have anything to edit, so they think, what the hell, 115 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: let's just give him Viva. When this man, who had 116 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 2: never edited a women's magazine before, starts his job at Viva, 117 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 2: he does what many bosses do when they start a 118 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: new gig. He calls a meeting and. 119 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 3: He gathers his all female team editorial team together, and 120 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 3: he says, you know, I know I'm probably an unusual 121 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: choice for this, you know, after all, you know I 122 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 3: want I only know what it's like to fuck and 123 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: not to be fucked. 124 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 2: Classy, right, And for Robin, who'd worked for Bob and 125 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: Cathy since her teens, since Viva started, this is it 126 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: the final misogyny straw and I resigned. 127 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 3: I resigned, and Kathy made a huge play to keep 128 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 3: me and I wouldn't and that was really hard. 129 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: And not too long after Robin resigns, this guy ends 130 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: up getting fired anyway, which is all indicative of a 131 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: much bigger structural issue at VIVA that's been there the 132 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: whole time. Here's Viva and Penthouse editor Peter Block. 133 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 5: One of the problems was that and Kathy would just 134 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 5: switch editors to you often. 135 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: With each new executive editor or managing editor, no matter 136 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: the title, they're always the second in command under Kathy's 137 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 2: top spot on the masthead. With each of these new 138 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: editors comes as shift in Beav's tone. Sometimes you have 139 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: a feminist. Sometimes, like with the Henry Miller essay, it's 140 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 2: decidedly not. Sometimes it's a gussied up feminized Penthouse. Sometimes 141 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: it's inexplicably a magazine dedicated to paranormal events. It's identity whiplash. 142 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 2: The magazine sorely needs an anchor, someone with vision. Her 143 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: name is Anna Annah Winter rules the three hundred billions. 144 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: She has had the guts and the intelligence. 145 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 6: She is the most famous fashion journalist in the world. 146 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 2: Now you most likely know Anna Wintour from her thirty 147 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 2: five years and counting as editor in chief of Vogue. 148 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: But in nineteen seventy six, Anna Wintour's not a fashion 149 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: icon yet. True, she's already got her signature Bob, and 150 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 2: she's even wearing dark sunglasses often inside. But when Anna 151 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: first comes in for an interview at Viva, she's mostly 152 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: just a twenty seven year old UK transplant, an out 153 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: of work junior magazine person looking for her second US job. 154 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 7: She had just been fired from Harper's Bazaar and that 155 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 7: was the first staff job she got after moving to 156 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 7: New York from London in nineteen seventy five. 157 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: That's Anna Wintour's biographer, Amy o'dill amy's book, Anna came 158 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: out in twenty twenty two. 159 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 7: And landing at Harper's Bazar. You know, she was very driven, 160 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 7: even at that point in her twenties, to be editor 161 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 7: in chief of Vogue, and I'm sure she thought that, 162 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 7: you know, she was at Harper's Bazar, that was Vogue's 163 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 7: number one competitor, and that would springboard her and it didn't. 164 00:09:58,320 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 7: It really ended in disaster. 165 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: The disaster was that Harper's bizarre thought Anna didn't understand 166 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 2: how to appeal to an American audience, and they fired 167 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 2: her for it. So, with a bit of stain on 168 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 2: her resume and something to prove, Anna goes job hunting Viva, 169 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 2: which is still understaffed after cleaning house with the penis 170 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: fiasco and with the swift firing of Ernie, happened to 171 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: be looking for a new fashion and beauty editor. Anna 172 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 2: applies and she impresses Bob and Kathy right from the start. 173 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 2: They scoop her up. Here's Bob Guccioni Junior. 174 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 8: She was very young and the impression of her was 175 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 8: very bright, and she's in England to that kind of 176 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 8: English luster to her, and you know, charming and you know, 177 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 8: witty and acerbic and expensive taste. You know, everybody did 178 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 8: think highly of her. 179 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 2: Now, Anna Wintour politely declined to be interviewed for this podcast. 180 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 2: She wasn't interested in discussing her two years work at Viva, 181 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: which was frankly not a surprise. Here's Amy. 182 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 7: Anna never talks about her time at Viva. People speculate 183 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 7: that she's ashamed of the connection to a magazine that 184 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 7: published male nudity that was a competitor to Playgirl to. 185 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: Be fair, it is a little odd to imagine Anna 186 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: win Tour, the fashion titan we all know today, mixing 187 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: it up with sleazy pornographers. But whether she likes to 188 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 2: acknowledge it or not, Viva is inarguably Anna Wintour's breakout job. 189 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 7: I think it's such an important job for her, and 190 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 7: it's almost sad that she doesn't talk about it, because 191 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 7: this is when you can see her style start to 192 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 7: come out. And I think that the early early Viva is. 193 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 7: If you look at her fashion spreads, they definitely resemble 194 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 7: some of the things that we're accustoms seeing in Vogue magazine. 195 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: Anna's taste is already unimpeachable. She has an eye for 196 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: young design talent, and she knows how to tell stories 197 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 2: through fashion to really sell the clothes. And even though 198 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: she's not famous yet, when she's brought in to head 199 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 2: up Vivis fashion and beauty section, there's a buzz about 200 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 2: her as soon as she arrives. Here's Penthouse pr director 201 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: Leslie j. 202 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 6: I was there when Anna Winsor started working there and 203 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 6: it was a big deal, and then she came. She 204 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 6: always had a fresh bouquet of flowers deliver it. To 205 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 6: her every single day. She looked like a ragamuffin. I 206 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 6: mean that she turns into Vogue is amazing. She wore 207 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 6: outlandish clothes that but I would never wear any of them. 208 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 6: But she was the fashion director, you know. 209 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 2: But what Leslie j thought of as ragamuffin is what 210 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: others might describe as edgy. Anna is sophisticated, well bred. 211 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 2: She's the daughter of the famous British newspaper editor Charles Windtour. 212 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: She's got her finger on the pulse of fashion, and 213 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 2: she's fancier than anyone who's worked at Penhouse or Viva 214 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: up to this point. Here's editor Pat Lindon. 215 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 9: She took the concord home to London every single weekend. 216 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 9: She would you know, leave, arrive at work with her 217 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 9: shopping bag, if her undies or whatever she needed, and 218 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 9: then she would come back Monday morning. 219 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 2: After Anna Wintour is brought in, Bob and Kathy quickly 220 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 2: expand Viva's fashion section from four pages a month to 221 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: a full sixteen. It's a big bet on her talent 222 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 2: and a last ditch ploy to turn Viva into a 223 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: women's magazine that attracts big money women's fashion ads. Anna's 224 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 2: given creative autonomy and free rein to do what she 225 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: wants with her pages. That free rain, it costs money. 226 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 8: You know. 227 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 7: She came from fashion magazines, and at a fashion magazine, 228 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 7: it's it's customary to pay a messenger to pick up 229 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 7: a dress from a designer and bring it to your office. 230 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 7: While that diva's not a fashion magazine, Kathy Keaton was 231 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 7: not a you know, she didn't have that much experience. 232 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 7: I don't know how many years of experience she had 233 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 7: in magazines when Anna came on. Was it a few? 234 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 7: So she had a few years of experience, you know, 235 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 7: just being parachuted into this role as publisher, So she 236 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 7: didn't know how things operated, really, and Anna ran things 237 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 7: at Viva the way that a fashion magazine would run them, 238 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 7: and that was alien to them. 239 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: Now, Bob and Kathy weren't in the fashion industry. They 240 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: were barely real publishing people, so they had no idea 241 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: of the funding Anna felt was necessary to do her job, 242 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: funding which was larger than anyone expected. 243 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 7: You know, this is the thing that Anna came up 244 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 7: against early in her career, again and again, wanting to 245 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 7: do the thing that she wanted to do, and not 246 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 7: trying to adapt to concerns like budgets. She didn't work 247 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 7: that way. She was very single minded in what she 248 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 7: wanted to do. 249 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: And what did Anna want to do well, from the 250 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: looks of her first few Viva issues, she wants to 251 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 2: was sablish herself as a real player on the global 252 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: fashion scene, and she wants to do it fast. To 253 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 2: that end, Anna's first Viva fashion shoots are lavish, strategic, 254 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: and tightly curated to compete with more established fashion titles. 255 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: She insists on shooting on location everywhere from Tokyo to 256 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: Saint Croix, and she often chooses women of color to model, 257 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: some of the first to appear in Viva, which was 258 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: more in line with an international audience, and she styles 259 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: them in designers never seen in the magazine before, mixing 260 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: old school French luxury brands like YSL with cutting edge 261 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: up and comers like Issimayaki. But mostly, and perhaps this 262 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 2: was a response to getting fired from Harper's Bazaar for 263 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: not understanding American taste. At Viva, Anna uses the most 264 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 2: American of American designers. There's never an issue without pieces 265 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: from say Ralph Lauren or Calvin Klein. It's the Anna 266 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: Wintour taste. You know, if you've ever paged through Vogue, 267 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: it's classics with the twist. Whereas Viva's photography had once 268 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: been a weird, wild romp under Anna, it's more self serious. 269 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: Here's fashion historian Laura Helmes. 270 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 10: She brought some forward thinking sort of fashion knowledge there. 271 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 10: But Anna was coming from a sort of traditional publishing 272 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 10: background and a traditional fashion background, and so brought more 273 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,239 Speaker 10: of that into the fashion editorials, where there's less fantasy, 274 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 10: there's less dreaminess. 275 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: Still, Anna's success within Viva's fashion pages is evident right away, 276 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 2: and the rest of the industry, including executives at Conde Nast, 277 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 2: publisher of Vogue, start taking notice. Here's Viva editor Pat. 278 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 11: Her breakout place was, I think Viva. That's where she 279 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 11: got the attention that put her into the running for 280 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 11: the big time. 281 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: As for Anna herself, whether she's on location in Marrakesh 282 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: or back in her Manhattan Viva office, she often displays 283 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 2: the same kind of over it all removed had with Jeanne, 284 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,719 Speaker 2: a smidge of early Devilwaar's Prada peeking through. She just 285 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: wasn't one to play nice with others from the start. 286 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: Young Anna has a few unmistakable Anna Winter of today quirks. 287 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 11: I was technically her boss because I was the articles editor. 288 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 11: She did not invite any kind of conversation. She did 289 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 11: not invite camaraderie. 290 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 2: Paths often tasked with editing the words that go with 291 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 2: Anna's fashion spreads. 292 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 11: We'd pass each other in the hallway and she'd kind 293 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 11: of look down at the floor and get that sort 294 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 11: of a little half smile on her face to acknowledge 295 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 11: that I was there, but she was not going to 296 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 11: say anything to me. And that was kind of it 297 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 11: with her. 298 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 2: And when Anna did deigne to engage with her coworkers, 299 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 2: she could be just odd. The Viva and Penthouse gangs 300 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 2: all hang out after work at a Manhattan restaurant and 301 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: bar called PJ. Clarks. 302 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 5: She would sit there with us when we were all 303 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 5: getting all drinking, and she'd be with her shades and 304 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 5: peeling little sugar cubes. We'd be hanging out there and 305 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 5: some of the minions from Panna House in Viva would 306 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 5: come down with le act. He's sitting like correcting things, 307 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 5: and it's like, how can you even see anything? 308 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: Despite these anti social foibles, Anna's creative vision is unyielding. 309 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 2: With the addition of her fashion pages, Viva feels fresh 310 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 2: and exciting again. It's a reset, But could this reset 311 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: be enough to propel Viva to a legitimate women's magazine 312 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 2: success or was it just too little, too late? Act 313 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 2: two Last Rabbit in the Hat By nineteen seventy eight, 314 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: two years after doing away with the Dicks and after 315 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: two years investing in Anna Wintour's fashion vision, Bob and 316 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: Cathy decide to invest in Viva's editorial again. They give 317 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: Jinny Kopecky, a smart twenty seven year old editor from 318 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: Ladies Home Journal, the chance to build a real magazine 319 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 2: around Anna's pages. Jinny didn't want to be interviewed live 320 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 2: for this podcast, but she did email with me, saying, quote, 321 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 2: I remember that time very fondly. I loved being at 322 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: Viva while it lasted. It was a great, great time 323 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 2: to be a young, single female editor, writer, journalist in 324 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: New York City, maybe the best ever. The staff loves 325 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: Ginny and they respect her too well. 326 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 5: Jinny was a very, very principled and very good editor. 327 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 2: Even with the challenges. Jinny's super into her new job, 328 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: and she makes quick work of bringing Viva's original smart 329 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: feminist vision of course, sans dick picks and erotica back 330 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 2: to life, and by the middle of nineteen seventy eight, 331 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: with Ginny and Anna working their magic, Viva's actually looking 332 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: kind of great again. There are stories about the epidemic 333 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 2: of domestic violence, multipart packages on abortion, an insightful profile 334 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 2: of Earth. A kit magazine, just like at the beginning, 335 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: is once again staffed with smart editors who have a 336 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: mission and believe in it. They're trying to turn Viva around, 337 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 2: pull off a new trick, the last rabbit in this magazine. 338 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: Hat and editor Ginny's enthusiasm for this new Viva is contagious. 339 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: Here's Viva editor pat again. 340 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 11: We're bringing Viva on this new track. Now, Viva is 341 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 11: now going to be a terrific magazine. It's going to 342 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 11: be a feminist magazine. It's going to be exciting, it's 343 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 11: going to be better than Miss, it's going to be 344 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 11: different from Cosmo. 345 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 12: What Ginny and I were saying was like an eschore, 346 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 12: like a feminist esquire. We wanted to have offer a 347 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 12: place where good feminist writers could could publish their stuff 348 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 12: get paid. 349 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: Well, that's Viva, editor of Valmonroe. She and Pat are 350 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 2: now working with Ginny to make this vision come to life, 351 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 2: and they're having a good time doing it. 352 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 11: And I remember seeing friends. We went to a restaurant, 353 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 11: fear Ellos or something, and we went. As I was 354 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 11: walking through the restaurant, I saw friends, and how are you? 355 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 11: I said, Oh God, I'm just so happy. I just 356 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 11: love this job. I've never loved a job more. 357 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: Thanks in part to Anna Wintor's fashion pages bringing in 358 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: some clout and at least a few ads, Kathy and 359 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 2: Bob are willing to spend on Viva again, and editors 360 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: like Pat and Val can afford to bring on whatever 361 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: writers they want. It's an editor's dream. But there remains 362 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: one problem at Viva, and it's a big one. It's 363 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 2: the problem Viva's had since the start. It's Bob Guccioni. 364 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: Of course, specifically, it's Bob up to his old tricks, 365 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 2: flexing creative dominance and trying to reuse his penthouse pets 366 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 2: photoshoots for Viva's covers. 367 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 12: We did what we could for eight months, like you know, 368 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 12: we were offering decent money and good ideas and telling people, 369 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 12: you know, ignore the cover. 370 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,479 Speaker 2: But the covers turn out to be not so easy 371 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 2: to ignore, and with this strong willed new team in place, 372 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: Bob's running into resistance, and so is Kathy, who's often 373 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 2: tasked with carrying water for Bob and delivering his orders. 374 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: Anna is the first to speak out. 375 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 7: They would hear Anna and Kathy Keaton fighting over models, 376 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 7: and then they would hear Anna stomping out. 377 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: Now, even from the beginning, Viva's cover models rarely made 378 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 2: much sense. Sometimes they were celebrities like Bianca Jagger or 379 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 2: Shelley Duval, sometimes penhouse pets, sometimes just a man's bare ass. 380 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 2: But when Anna is at Viva, the covers are mostly 381 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: her models and her styling, not elaborate Vogue like cover shoots, 382 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: but at least their outtakes from her fashion spreads. They 383 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 2: represent her ideas. Anna's not interested in Bob and Kathy 384 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: denigrating her extremely specific creative vision with these corny ass 385 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 2: porn covers and the tasteless penhouse pet covers aren't just 386 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 2: affecting Anna, Ginny and Val are getting drawn into the 387 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 2: battle too. 388 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 12: And then one day Bob wanted to put some like 389 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 12: half naked more naked woman on the cover in Pearls 390 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 12: and bosoms or something. 391 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 2: And for many of the female editors, this is somehow 392 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 2: a bosom too far. It's so obvious the picture is 393 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 2: sloppy penthouse seconds. 394 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 11: It's that kind of hither look in the eyes that 395 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 11: betrays that it's it's not for women. That's not a 396 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 11: woman's magazine face. That's a man. That's a girly magazine's face. 397 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 2: But Bob's insistent and Kathy's not stopping him. 398 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 11: And I remember Kathy defending it, saying it's a beautiful cover. 399 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 11: It's a beautiful cover. 400 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 2: And remember we're in the late seventies now things are changing. 401 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: This isn't vow or Ginny or Pat's first job, and 402 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: they're confident enough to know it won't be their last. 403 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 2: They believe in themselves and their talent, their integrity and vision, 404 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 2: so they stand their ground, or at least some of 405 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: them do. 406 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 11: Ginny and Valid they were furious, just furious. 407 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: It's true. Vowel talks with Ginny and they come to a. 408 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 12: Decision, and I said, that's it. We're done. 409 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: Bob and Kathy don't try to talk them out of it. 410 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: In fact, Val experienced the opposite. She's basically frog marched out. 411 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 12: Suddenly there was a bodyguard at my desk and we 412 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 12: were escorted out of the building. 413 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 2: Even in the midst of all this drama, Pat is 414 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 2: still holding out hope. 415 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 11: I said that I was not going to join them, 416 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 11: and I told them. You know, they were surprised because 417 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 11: I had been so involved in the in the Newsweek thing. 418 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: Remember Pat had been through some serious shit already at Newsweek. 419 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: She was part of the sexual discrimination lawsuit in nineteen seventy. 420 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 2: Plus she actually really loves her job at Viva, so 421 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 2: she goes against Ginny and bell. 422 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 11: I remember that they were very angry at me, that 423 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 11: they wanted nothing to do with me. Basically after I 424 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 11: said that I was not going to join them. 425 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: Pat just really wants Viva to finally work. It's so 426 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 2: close to working. Viva's her dream job, and like many 427 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: people in toxic workplaces, she's cling to a fantasy of 428 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,239 Speaker 2: how it could be rather than what it is. 429 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 11: A magazine that's trying to get on its feet and 430 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 11: trying to change and trying to go in a new direction. 431 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 11: And you know, we'll we can work on that. 432 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 2: So Pat sticks it out. Buzzom covers porn King at 433 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 2: All as Viva enters yet another round of editor musical chairs. 434 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 11: The next thing I can remember is that Helen Irwin 435 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 11: was brought in as the new editor. 436 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 2: Helen Irwin becomes at least the sixth editor in just 437 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: five years to hold this second in command position at Viva. 438 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 2: She's another impulsive Bob and Kathy decision, another potential quick fix. 439 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 11: She depended a lot on me on my judgment, and 440 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 11: I think it was really the two. 441 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: Of us until one afternoon a few weeks later, Helen 442 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 2: takes Pat to lunch. 443 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 11: And then I sat down at the table and Helen said, Pat, 444 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 11: I have to tell you something, and I you know, 445 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 11: she was lovely about it, and she said, but they're 446 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 11: closing Viva. 447 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 2: Pat stunned. 448 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 11: There was no inkling at all, and there probably should 449 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 11: have been. 450 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: Later that week it's official. 451 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 11: The night that they that they closed Viva, we were 452 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 11: all there late. 453 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 2: Pat and Anna Wintour are two of the last Viva 454 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 2: women standing. On this Friday night, the night they're told 455 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 2: Viva Magazine is finally over. 456 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 11: We stayed late. We all got drunk and we went 457 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 11: down to Anna's office and she was sobbing. She was sobbing. 458 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 11: I was very surprised to see that. I guess she thought, 459 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 11: you know, here was my great chance and I had 460 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 11: this great thing that it's all gone. 461 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 2: The editors, crying, Anna and all walked to Kathy's. 462 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 11: Office and then we went down and we saw Kathy 463 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 11: who was sitting in her office and you know, saying, oh, Kathy, 464 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 11: and she held out her arm her hand, took my 465 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 11: hand and some of the others and gave them a squeeze, 466 00:26:58,800 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 11: and she didn't even look. 467 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: Up before they leave for good. The editors are looking 468 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 2: for some kind of answers, some closure from Kathy. 469 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 11: She just but she you know, she smiled in sympathy. 470 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 11: She didn't say anything. Nobody was accusing her of anything. 471 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 11: It was just, you know, we wanted to see what 472 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 11: her reaction would be, and it was that she was 473 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 11: very sad. But you know, that's life kind of thing. 474 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 2: But they're not getting closure from Kathy or anyone because 475 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 2: understanding the end of Viva and what it all means, 476 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: that's what It's more complicated than the kind of clear 477 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: cut answer the editors want. But a half century later, 478 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 2: I think we've gotten pretty close to pinning it down. 479 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 2: Stiff is an original podcast from iHeartMedia and Crooked Media. 480 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: It's produced by Crooked Media. It's hosted and written by 481 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: me Jennifer Ramalini and produced by Megan Donnas. Sydney Rapp 482 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 2: is our associate producer, Story editing by Mary Knopf, music 483 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 2: sound design and engineering by Hannes Brown. Our fact checker 484 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: is Julia Paskin. Additional production support from Nafila Cato and 485 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 2: Inez Maza from Crooked Media. Our executive producers are Sarah Geismer, 486 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: Katy Long, and Mary Knoff, with special thanks to Alison 487 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: Falsetta and Lyra Smith from iHeartMedia. Our executive producers are 488 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: Beth Anne Macaluso and Julia Weaver.