Speaker 1: Hey, it's Roy Wood Jr. And to honor Martin Luther
Speaker 1: King Junior Day, we're revisiting a beyond the Scenes episode
Speaker 1: about the life and legacy of Martin Luther King Jr.
Speaker 1: In this episode, I sit down with dr Abra, Mexicandy
Speaker 1: and Daily Show writer randall Otis, and we discuss how
Speaker 1: conservatives have a habit of sighting MLK to score a
Speaker 1: variety of political points, some even us his words to
Speaker 1: undermine anti racist education and critical race theory. We also
Speaker 1: discussed the commercialization of the holiday and how to properly
Speaker 1: honor Martin Luther King Junior's legacy. I'm looking at you.
Speaker 1: I better not see y'all. Let know MLK Mattress Day
Speaker 1: sales heavy Listen, Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. This
Speaker 1: is the podcast that goes deeper into savings and topics
Speaker 1: that have originally aired on the Daily Show at Trevor Noah.
Speaker 1: I am Roy Wood Junior, per as usual this podcast.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't beyond the scenes. It's like, this
Speaker 1: is like when you order a milkshakee and they make
Speaker 1: too much milkshare and they give you that little extra
Speaker 1: bit of milkshake. You're not like they eat the milkshake
Speaker 1: and then the cup they made the milkshake in. It's
Speaker 1: got a little bit of a corner. That's a Southern
Speaker 1: measurement of liquid. They give you a little extra corner
Speaker 1: of milkshake. Is two milkshakes for the price of one.
Speaker 1: That's what this podcast is like. We are overflowing with
Speaker 1: informational goodness that might give you a brain freeze. Now,
Speaker 1: in honor of Dr Reverend Martin Luther the King Day,
Speaker 1: we're taking a look at the life and legacy of
Speaker 1: Dr Martin Luther King, Jr. The appropriation of his message,
Speaker 1: his influence in today's pop culture, and all things of
Speaker 1: that nature. Today I'm joined by Daily Show writer Randall Otis.
Speaker 1: Randall as always great to have you own. How you
Speaker 1: doing pimping? I'm doing good. You know, got covids, so
Speaker 1: I don't have to worry about that for another month
Speaker 1: at least. Well, you know what they say, Randall, You're
Speaker 1: not a real New York City stand up comedian if
Speaker 1: you haven't caught COVID, So welcome to the party, pal.
Speaker 1: It's also I'm also joined by New York Times bestselling
Speaker 1: author of the book How to Be An Anti racist
Speaker 1: and also stamped from the beginning the Definitive History of
Speaker 1: racist ideas in America. He is a historian and the
Speaker 1: director of Boston University's Center for Anti Racist Research. Professor
Speaker 1: Abram X. Kendy. Professor Kendy, how are you doing to day.
Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm still still running from from COVID, but
Speaker 1: I'm trying. Well. If it's anything like the NYPD, eventually
Speaker 1: it will stop you for questioning. We're avoiding it. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for being on the show. Before we
Speaker 1: get into the topic at hand today, which is Dr
Speaker 1: Martin Luther, Reverend the King, and the way a lot
Speaker 1: of people cherry picked pieces of his message to fit
Speaker 1: their narrative. You have dedicated your life to trying to
Speaker 1: educate and get people to understand here's how we correct,
Speaker 1: Here's how we reverse this terrible cancer in this country.
Speaker 1: What the hell do you do to relax? Man? What
Speaker 1: is your what is like? You have people? You know?
Speaker 1: Do you know people? What's your spy routine? What's your woosa?
Speaker 1: What does Professor Kindy do to unwind and just take
Speaker 1: a breath from this? So that's the same great helps
Speaker 1: uh each night? Um? I think I also try not
Speaker 1: to take things personally, and so certainly when people are
Speaker 1: degrading black people, I don't take it personally as if
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with with me. People like me, I
Speaker 1: recognize them as a problem. But even when people are
Speaker 1: personally attacking sort of me and my work from bad faith,
Speaker 1: I also just try not to take it personally and
Speaker 1: try to be focused, you know, in transformation. So when
Speaker 1: we talk about Martin Luther King Jr's birthday and the
Speaker 1: fact that it's now a national holiday, it's it's are
Speaker 1: they are they observing it yet in Arizona? Are we
Speaker 1: still forty nine states county? I don't know. It's like
Speaker 1: everyone knows that I have a dream speech, and that's
Speaker 1: the one that's kind of the it's the most quoted
Speaker 1: of all of his many many quotables. But that was
Speaker 1: only a small part of his complex legacy. Um, I'll
Speaker 1: start with you, Professor Kendy. What parts of Dr King's legacy,
Speaker 1: in your opinion, are often overlooked? Well, I mean, even
Speaker 1: if you take the mL E the I have a
Speaker 1: dreams speech, and and the line that is often quoted
Speaker 1: that that King's dream that my four little children will
Speaker 1: one day live in a nation where they will not
Speaker 1: be judged by the color of their skin, but by
Speaker 1: the content of the character. People disregard what he said
Speaker 1: directly before that and directly after it, which in which
Speaker 1: he lamented that his dream is being thwarted by vicious
Speaker 1: racists in places like Mississippi, which are sweltering with the
Speaker 1: heat of oppression. Can you imagine if if I say
Speaker 1: that today, right, you know that that's a problem. But
Speaker 1: but then somehow, and so I think there's so much
Speaker 1: of of of King's sort of legacy, the fact that
Speaker 1: he simultaneously recognized racism and spoke out about racism as
Speaker 1: the problem, but then also recognized how racism itself it
Speaker 1: wasn't just sort of harming black people. It was harming America.
Speaker 1: It was harming democracy, and it was dividing people. And
Speaker 1: he wanted to bring people together, and he saw anti
Speaker 1: racism as as as a unifying sort of praxis. The
Speaker 1: way you've just so eloquently explained that, Hey, you know,
Speaker 1: right before that line and right after that line, he
Speaker 1: says some other stuff you should look into. Why are
Speaker 1: people why do people cherry pick that, Why are people
Speaker 1: in denial about the other parts of who Dr King was,
Speaker 1: like he was against the Vietnam War. Why has that
Speaker 1: never brought up? I mean, it's it's striking. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know they not only was King against the Vietnam War,
Speaker 1: but when he came out against the Vietnam War, I
Speaker 1: believe April four, nine seven, he stated in a speech
Speaker 1: that the United States government is the greatest purveyor of
Speaker 1: violence on the face of this earth. And and you know,
Speaker 1: you know again he was very clear about even the
Speaker 1: relationship between imperialism, military sort of warfare, human division, you know,
Speaker 1: in racism, and and I think I'm I'm personally sort
Speaker 1: of bother just because he said so much more than that,
Speaker 1: I have a dream speech in that single line. But
Speaker 1: we of course missed that because we try to people
Speaker 1: try to use King uh to justify their own not racism,
Speaker 1: or that we should be race neutral as a nation,
Speaker 1: which I'm still trying to figure out what that even means.
Speaker 1: What I would love to do is play you a
Speaker 1: clip of conservatives who have appropriated Mlk's message. Let's just
Speaker 1: let's just let's just listen to a run of conservatives
Speaker 1: quoting Dr King. Dr King would not participate in a
Speaker 1: black Lives Matter protest. The Great MLK said, you have
Speaker 1: a moral obligation to object to unjust rules and rules
Speaker 1: that make no sense. One of my favorite quotes from
Speaker 1: Dr King was, now is the time to make real
Speaker 1: the promises of democracy. You think of how he changed America.
Speaker 1: He inspired us to change through the legislative process to
Speaker 1: become a more perfect union. That's exactly what President Trump
Speaker 1: is calling on the Congress to do today. I'm asking
Speaker 1: my colleagues to remember the words of the legendary, the
Speaker 1: great leader in this country, Dr Martin Luther King, who
Speaker 1: once said, the time is always right to do what
Speaker 1: is right. And I just want to leave you with
Speaker 1: the quote from Martin Luther King, Jr. That we must
Speaker 1: learn to live together as brothers or we will perish
Speaker 1: together as fools. Thank you. Critical race theory is a
Speaker 1: Marxist doctrine that rejects the vision of Martin Luther King Jr.
Speaker 1: Critical race theory. Here it goes against everything Martin Luther
Speaker 1: King has ever told us. Don't judge us by the
Speaker 1: color of our skin. And now they're embracing it. Right,
Speaker 1: We're going backwards. He's kind of like everyone's um dead,
Speaker 1: like my Black Friend is like this dead man who
Speaker 1: can make say anything right. And with the thing about
Speaker 1: you know, he has this huge body of work in
Speaker 1: this entire life. It's kind of like if someone maybe
Speaker 1: this is a poor analogy, but it was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, do you know Outcasts? You know the
Speaker 1: group Outcasts? Like oh yeah, hey, shake it like a
Speaker 1: polaroid picture. I'm like, yes, but even one within the song, Hey,
Speaker 1: you're misunderstanding about the entire song is incredibly sad and
Speaker 1: about the ability of love to last. But there's also
Speaker 1: other songs Outcast is made. You know, that's so much
Speaker 1: deeper in opoignent. So Randall, as a writer at the
Speaker 1: Daily Show, you have what I considered to be the
Speaker 1: most difficult job in the building, which is to take
Speaker 1: sadness and make it funny. And so when you when
Speaker 1: you all were researching this piece and you start digging
Speaker 1: up all these wonderful, wonderful factoids on Dr King, you know,
Speaker 1: and how the FBI, you know, they tried to destroy
Speaker 1: him with wild taps and they call them playing crazy audio.
Speaker 1: They told him he should kill himself, suggested suicide. But
Speaker 1: then the FBI's Twitter account gives Dr King a shot
Speaker 1: out on MLK Day. How do you all in the
Speaker 1: writer's room juggle the gravity of the situation versus the
Speaker 1: need to still be able to interfuse humor into this topic. Well,
Speaker 1: I guess it's for me. It's kind of like just
Speaker 1: focusing on one the honesty of the situation, which is
Speaker 1: I think like if I think if you just basically
Speaker 1: look at the reality of what you just said, you know,
Speaker 1: they tried to have this man killed, and that are
Speaker 1: celebrating him on its face is absurd and heightened to
Speaker 1: a level that is almost hard to comprehend. And it's
Speaker 1: kind of in a way with that kind of like
Speaker 1: the Trump problem, like when something is so ridiculous, how
Speaker 1: do you heighten that reality? Um, And part of it
Speaker 1: is too, I guess I like focus on, like some
Speaker 1: of the reactions of the serious things. So if something
Speaker 1: is like incredibly serious, incredibly potently important, it may be
Speaker 1: a particle hard to joke about that thing in and
Speaker 1: of itself, but the deflections off of that topic can
Speaker 1: be somewhere you can go, and that's usually where I
Speaker 1: find a lot of humors. So people's reactions to what
Speaker 1: the FBI has said is a good source of humors.
Speaker 1: So it's like kind of like, um, it's hard to
Speaker 1: stare directly into the sun, but you can get the
Speaker 1: rays off what the sun provides, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Professor Candy. The thing that I guess is so amazing
Speaker 1: to me about Dr King is that he is the
Speaker 1: one that we're all taught. So I'm a product of
Speaker 1: the Birmingham City school system. Birmingham is that about a
Speaker 1: black city. All the city schools are predominantly black, teachers
Speaker 1: are predominantly black. Taught a lot of blacketty blackness. We
Speaker 1: did a lot of field trips to blacketty black stuff.
Speaker 1: Yet when I look back in reflection on everything, it
Speaker 1: was a black school system, but it was for sure
Speaker 1: a white board of education, of white state board of education.
Speaker 1: And when I look at everything that we were taught,
Speaker 1: we were just taught the basic hits. You were lucky
Speaker 1: if you found out about Marion Anderson like they talked
Speaker 1: you always call it suit brother and a flute brother.
Speaker 1: You would learn a black person who plays an instrument
Speaker 1: and a black person who wore suit. They didn't teach
Speaker 1: you about anybody else. How did Dr King become the
Speaker 1: one that was synonymous with the civil rights movement when
Speaker 1: there are so many other figures that did things to
Speaker 1: move the Black ray forward. And how do we make
Speaker 1: for a more well rounded civil rights education in this country? Like,
Speaker 1: can't we miss quote other people other than that? Why
Speaker 1: r King the only one we miss quote? Abernathew said,
Speaker 1: some dope ship, dude. I mean, I think there's probably
Speaker 1: two reasons. Without getting into much trouble, I think that
Speaker 1: the first is that, I mean, I think King certainly
Speaker 1: was an incredibly pivotal figure during during the Civil rights movement,
Speaker 1: and during the movement itself captured much of the media
Speaker 1: narratives around civil rights, when in many cases there were
Speaker 1: other people who were sort of leading the way, you know,
Speaker 1: whether we're talking about even the Montgomery sort of bus boycott,
Speaker 1: which was largely organized by women and it was marked
Speaker 1: mainly domestics who were boycotting. Of course, King sort of
Speaker 1: became one of the premier sort of media figures. And
Speaker 1: and so I think there's that. Then I think the
Speaker 1: other reason is because how they framed King. So they
Speaker 1: framed King as Mr. Non Violence. They sort of want
Speaker 1: to essentially just as during the Civil Rights when they
Speaker 1: want to frame King is non violence Malcolm X's violence,
Speaker 1: which are of course both flawed. Um and and then
Speaker 1: they want to frame King as an assimilationist, that he
Speaker 1: was essentially, uh, seeking to integrate into superior white America
Speaker 1: and you black people, that's which Hell is supposed to
Speaker 1: be doing, when that's also false. So I think the
Speaker 1: way in which they framed King also, you know, is
Speaker 1: a reason why I think they're they're they're misrepresenting him
Speaker 1: as opposed to somebody else. I'm curious kind of like
Speaker 1: with the they you're talking about, is can it be
Speaker 1: kind of sourced back to some type of specific group
Speaker 1: or movement to try to edit the history of m
Speaker 1: OK or is it more of like a broader just
Speaker 1: general social movement among people. Well, I mean, one of
Speaker 1: the ways we could understand the last fifty years is
Speaker 1: there has been efforts two essentially create race neutrality. This
Speaker 1: the the you know, particularly you know Americans who once
Speaker 1: were champions of separate but equal, who were segregating and
Speaker 1: supporting racial segregation, who were opposing sort of bussing, who
Speaker 1: were supporting the underfunding of of those majority black schools
Speaker 1: that that Roy talked about, um and and using very
Speaker 1: explicit ideas about black people to justify them. By the
Speaker 1: nineties seventies, those very same forces were saying, oh, we're
Speaker 1: no longer segregationist, but we're committed to racial neutrality. Because
Speaker 1: what happened is by the sixties you had activists who
Speaker 1: are like, Okay, we have all this inequality, now we
Speaker 1: need to eliminate it. They were like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you know, even though these people need more, if we
Speaker 1: if we allocate resources based on need, that's quote reverse discrimination.
Speaker 1: And so in many ways, those very people are are
Speaker 1: also the people who are trying to to really, as
Speaker 1: I wrote in a piece recently, the Atlantic, engage in
Speaker 1: the second assassination among the King. So to that article,
Speaker 1: the Atlantic article the second Assassination of MLK, you said
Speaker 1: that quote King's nightmare of racism is being presented as
Speaker 1: his dream. Is what happening right now in this country?
Speaker 1: Is this Dr King's nightmare? Like? What do you think
Speaker 1: when you see email Ka's words appropriated in order to
Speaker 1: serve these various political narratives. No, I think people forget that.
Speaker 1: By nineteen sixty seven, a year before he was assassinated,
Speaker 1: King stated that in many cases, my dream has turned
Speaker 1: into a night there. And in one aspect of that
Speaker 1: nightmare was by nineteen sixty seven you had so many,
Speaker 1: particularly young people, but even parents and educators who were pressing,
Speaker 1: for for instance, African American history, and there was all
Speaker 1: sorts of opposition to that. Uh. And you know, King
Speaker 1: actually in a book in nineteen sixty seven wrote the
Speaker 1: history books, which have almost completely ignored the contribution of
Speaker 1: the need American history, have only served to intensify the
Speaker 1: Negro sense of worthlessness and to augment the anachronistic doctrine
Speaker 1: of white supremacy. And so King was clearly a supporter
Speaker 1: of anti racist education, of what's now called critical race theory.
Speaker 1: But what's ironic is they're using King to oppose the
Speaker 1: very thing he supported in his own written writings. Randall,
Speaker 1: what what role like if we if we talk about
Speaker 1: this idea of King being the only one that is quoted,
Speaker 1: what role do we think entertainment plays? And because when
Speaker 1: we think about we talk about like solutions, right, all right?
Speaker 1: If if the real ship ain't being taught in the schools,
Speaker 1: and from the looks of it, it it ain't gonna get
Speaker 1: taught anytime soon, depending on how these mid terms go
Speaker 1: then is it on the parents to start because you know,
Speaker 1: I have a five year old and they're already learning
Speaker 1: about people in kindergarten that they didn't touch on until
Speaker 1: fifth to sixth grade with me. So in my head,
Speaker 1: I'm doing the calculations they're gonna run out of black
Speaker 1: people to teach them about about the second grade. Is
Speaker 1: it on the parents to supplement that education? And also,
Speaker 1: you know kind of like what what what role does
Speaker 1: Hollywood play because we go, oh, they quote MLK too much,
Speaker 1: but when you look at civil rights movies, that's the
Speaker 1: only one they love. The green Light. If we're going,
Speaker 1: I'm going way way back. I know it's a little
Speaker 1: different now, but we're talking twenty to thirty years of
Speaker 1: black cinema. More often than not, it's just the hits
Speaker 1: that they cover. What role around or do you think
Speaker 1: entertainment place and trying to re educate people? I think
Speaker 1: it has an important role. Um Like clearly, like you know,
Speaker 1: Judas in The Black Messiah came out recently. That's probably
Speaker 1: the first time a lot of Americans probably even heard
Speaker 1: the name Fred Hampton, you know, or even had the
Speaker 1: Black Panthers portrayed in a way that wasn't as a terrorist.
Speaker 1: Like I grew up in the South, Agraham, Florida. What
Speaker 1: you can say is not the South. Whatever, the South, Um,
Speaker 1: that's super South, that's that's extra strength South. It's it's
Speaker 1: hafidelity South. And I remember when I was in school,
Speaker 1: like I learned the lost Cause theory in the Civil
Speaker 1: War and like the States Rights theory about Civil War.
Speaker 1: Like that's what I was taught. And it was through
Speaker 1: my parents teaching me outside of school about the history
Speaker 1: of more people than just MLK and George Washington Carver
Speaker 1: every single year where I got to learn about these people.
Speaker 1: And so that's me as a black person, like being
Speaker 1: kind of denied access to my history or just the
Speaker 1: history of a lot of people from this country with
Speaker 1: black people. And so I can't even imagine what it's
Speaker 1: like if you don't come from a black family. And
Speaker 1: even if you do come from black family, a lot
Speaker 1: of them may not take the time to teach you
Speaker 1: about these things, or maybe they weren't even educated themselves
Speaker 1: about it. So I guess in that way, entertainment's important.
Speaker 1: And I think in terms of like people just making
Speaker 1: another movievu I'm okay in another movie about 'm okay,
Speaker 1: is just probably in a ways, one that is easy.
Speaker 1: You know, people already understand who this guy is, and
Speaker 1: the other ones may be harder to green light because
Speaker 1: it's like, look, no, it seems like self perpetuating. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like only learned about them. Okay, you only make
Speaker 1: stuff about them. Okay, so other people want to learn
Speaker 1: about them. Okay, you know what I'm saying. Well, after
Speaker 1: the break, Um, let's let's stay in Florida. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about your governor run Dessantis and his latest attempts to
Speaker 1: ban critical race theory down there in Florida. This is
Speaker 1: beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. We are talking
Speaker 1: about conservatives and their loving relationship with Martin Luther King.
Speaker 1: But only the good part. Just give me a little
Speaker 1: bit of what he said that I agree with. That's
Speaker 1: the part that I like. Professor Abraham Kindy Rhondes Santis
Speaker 1: down there in Florida. Um, this man who so he's
Speaker 1: introduced a stop woke at while quoting MLK in the
Speaker 1: middle of introducing the app, do you think about what
Speaker 1: MLK stood for? He said he didn't want people judged
Speaker 1: on the color of their skin, but on the content
Speaker 1: of their character. You listen to some of these people nowadays,
Speaker 1: they don't talk about that. Is this increased wave of
Speaker 1: criticism against critical race theories? This is a direct result
Speaker 1: of heightened support for Black Lives matter, you know, because
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, in every movement, I feel
Speaker 1: like every time black people make some level of progress,
Speaker 1: there is a degree of backlash. Is what happened with
Speaker 1: critical race theories? This, you know, heightened because of support
Speaker 1: for Black Lives Matter nationally? Or is it, as MLK
Speaker 1: referred to it, the white backlash? I think it's it's both.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a coincidence that this manufactured critical
Speaker 1: race theory sort of mania happened in one a year
Speaker 1: after the series of demonstrations you know, around the country
Speaker 1: in the summer of tens of millions of people marched
Speaker 1: and demonstrated against police violence and racism, and by June
Speaker 1: of one, Pole was stating that as many of seventy
Speaker 1: six percent of Americans, we're recognizing that racism exists and
Speaker 1: was a major problem. Also the majority of white Americans,
Speaker 1: for the first time on record, we're also expressing a
Speaker 1: recognition of racism, you know, and that that problem and
Speaker 1: and and so I think that, of course there was
Speaker 1: a very targeted effort two undermine that to say no,
Speaker 1: racism isn't the problem. Those people who are saying racism
Speaker 1: is the problem of the real problem. But I also
Speaker 1: think that studies show that specifically Trump's base, when you
Speaker 1: when you compare them to white Democrats or even Republicans
Speaker 1: who don't necessarily like Trump, they specifically are more likely
Speaker 1: to believe that white people are the primary victims of
Speaker 1: racism or that white people are being subjected to racism.
Speaker 1: So the whole sort of mania around critical race theory
Speaker 1: is that it's harming white children, that that white children,
Speaker 1: you know, are basically exactly that our teaching force, which
Speaker 1: is what white is telling white children that they are evil.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the sort of idea because and there's
Speaker 1: a does a record mission that that idea is very
Speaker 1: prominent and well believed. It will be well received, you know,
Speaker 1: particularly among Trump space. Randall being from Florida, what would
Speaker 1: you say is the ratio of knowing what you know
Speaker 1: now about blackness and your identity and the journey of
Speaker 1: our ancestors, what percentage of that did you learn in
Speaker 1: home versus learning in Florida's schools very one too. I
Speaker 1: don't know. There's probably a number that hasn't been invented yet,
Speaker 1: and we'll get there one day. That's what I would say.
Speaker 1: There's pretty much almost all on the home where I
Speaker 1: learned about blackness and the history of black America up
Speaker 1: until which is I left it. I just had to
Speaker 1: to get the hell out of there. I feel like
Speaker 1: the hypocrisy in this is so perfect because like happened
Speaker 1: to write whole like two conflicting mantras, right, they we
Speaker 1: love MLK and racism is gone, but also let's ban
Speaker 1: all of mlk's books, because what I hate about this
Speaker 1: is the revisionist history of the the great Dr Martin
Speaker 1: Luther King, who we must all seventy of y'all hated
Speaker 1: him back in the sixties. They did a first of
Speaker 1: Professor ram I didn't know that they did polls on
Speaker 1: civil rights leaders. It was like six that King had
Speaker 1: an appropriate Yeah, like the sixty of people hated him,
Speaker 1: they did not rock. But what he did I just
Speaker 1: don't understand, you know, because like when you look at
Speaker 1: what's happening now with like like this Tennessee group, Mom's
Speaker 1: for liberty right. They tried to ban Francesy Ruffin's book
Speaker 1: on Martin Luther King in the March on Washington. How
Speaker 1: can you love MLK but also want to ban his teachings?
Speaker 1: You also have here, you know, Professor Kenny. You have
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania's uh Central York School District banning Brad Meltzer's I
Speaker 1: Am Martin Luther King, Jr. And then two years before that,
Speaker 1: which you gotta give them credit. Down there in Georgia,
Speaker 1: you know, they were ahead of the curve on banning
Speaker 1: some of these books before it became a you know,
Speaker 1: before it became nationwide. Georgia was doing it loud and
Speaker 1: proud after Stacy Abrams almost took the state from him,
Speaker 1: the Columbia County School District in Georgia, band Nick Stones,
Speaker 1: Dear Martin, is the CRT debate? Is this just another
Speaker 1: moment of Americans being able to deny what happened? Like
Speaker 1: what is the fear and just what is there we go?
Speaker 1: What are you fucking afraid of? What are people afraid of?
Speaker 1: If we dare to turn over these rocks of the past?
Speaker 1: What motivates this hatred of just facts? We're not even
Speaker 1: asking for policy that that's what's so wild about this ship.
Speaker 1: This is not a policy debate, this is just, hey,
Speaker 1: can we talk about the time that thing happened to us?
Speaker 1: That time in history? Well, I mean and and even
Speaker 1: you know, going back to to to Georgia banning next
Speaker 1: books and nikkas nick Stone is a is a native
Speaker 1: of Georgia, so you know, a native of outside of Atlanta.
Speaker 1: So it's but I think in many ways as it
Speaker 1: relates to race, this generation and really every generation of
Speaker 1: Americans have have not necessarily lived in reality. So like
Speaker 1: us trying to drag people into reality, people imagine that
Speaker 1: they were they're they're they're trying to be that, we're
Speaker 1: trying to sort of drag them, you know, into something surreal.
Speaker 1: And and for the first few decades of this country's history,
Speaker 1: it was widely believed slavery was a necessary evil. By
Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties to the eighteen sixties, it was why
Speaker 1: do we believe slavery was a positive good? We don't know.
Speaker 1: Of course, for a hundred years, it was believed that,
Speaker 1: you know, ming him was perfectly separate and equal. And
Speaker 1: and of course for the last fifty years, people have
Speaker 1: imagined we live in a post racial society with racial
Speaker 1: disparities all around us. So people don't really know how
Speaker 1: to even imagine their world, even to imagine themselves. Uh
Speaker 1: without this denial, uh, you know, without living in this
Speaker 1: world and make believe as you know, as one writer
Speaker 1: called it, I can't imagine even your I mean, in
Speaker 1: the past few years, we've learned that a lot of
Speaker 1: people don't even think science is real or sickness when
Speaker 1: it is effective, that active. I can't imagine how difficult
Speaker 1: it must be to have people believe in racism or
Speaker 1: the effects of our racial history. And so that's kind
Speaker 1: of something I wanted to say, Yeah, Randall quickly, I
Speaker 1: think generally people don't believe in science, but they really
Speaker 1: don't believe in racial science. They just think I'm just talking,
Speaker 1: you know, just one day I just decided to start
Speaker 1: talking about race and racism. That I wasn't trained to
Speaker 1: study this, that this is in my expertise. That people
Speaker 1: are sharing their views and I'm sharing my views. And
Speaker 1: that's what really really makes it hard. Dr Kendy when
Speaker 1: you speak and I know and I'm and I'm sure
Speaker 1: that you are brought in to talk to a lot
Speaker 1: of in a lot of capacities to people that may
Speaker 1: agree with you and want to learn more. But talk
Speaker 1: to me a little bit about the confrontational side of this.
Speaker 1: Because you have the data, you've done, the studies, you
Speaker 1: have done the research. You're not just someone who was
Speaker 1: awakened recently and put like, you're one of a few
Speaker 1: people that that that I'll talk to in this podcast
Speaker 1: who I believe has read every book that is behind
Speaker 1: you right now, Like because you know, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: we started doing these shows from home, people started, you know,
Speaker 1: decorating their bookshelf for arranging their books about you don't
Speaker 1: read them books. You're arranging them about color. That's the
Speaker 1: first sign that I know you ain't read them. Talk
Speaker 1: Talk to me about the confrontations that have Do you
Speaker 1: get confronted by people, like after seminars and like even
Speaker 1: pre COVID, where there was a little bit more face
Speaker 1: to face where someone wants to challenge you and go, yo, man,
Speaker 1: that's you're full of it. Oh that I mean, that's
Speaker 1: that's pretty regular. Little more so during COVID. Before COVID,
Speaker 1: I should say, um, but I mean I actually, you know,
Speaker 1: my work I tried to to to talk about the
Speaker 1: differences between a producer of a racist idea like a
Speaker 1: Donald Trump and the consumer, you know, a racist idea
Speaker 1: someone but who had been fed this this lie that
Speaker 1: let's say the election was stolen by those voters and
Speaker 1: those black and brown voters in Atlanta, you know, Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: and when that consumer sort of then repeats that propaganda
Speaker 1: to me, I tried to have that level of sort
Speaker 1: of empathy to think about that somebody sort of manipulated
Speaker 1: them into thinking this way, into thinking that that's other
Speaker 1: people stole their election. And and I think that empathy
Speaker 1: knowing that none of us are sort of born with
Speaker 1: ideas that a particular group is dangerous or inferior or
Speaker 1: stealing election. You know. I try to just remember when
Speaker 1: I'm confronted, and I try to really ask the person
Speaker 1: who's that who's claiming that they are not racist. I
Speaker 1: asked them, okay, so how do you define the term racist?
Speaker 1: If you swear you're not racist, you must be able
Speaker 1: to find that term, and usually they can't. Before we
Speaker 1: go to break then here here's my last question. Where
Speaker 1: does America compare with other countries educational systems when it
Speaker 1: comes to like confronting difficult parts of their history. And
Speaker 1: I've been told that Germany don't play that when it
Speaker 1: comes to Nazi history and the rewriting or the repositioning
Speaker 1: of what Nazis really were all about. How do how
Speaker 1: do other countries confront their dark pass and history books.
Speaker 1: I actually think German is a great example, and I
Speaker 1: think many Americans are surprised to learn that German children
Speaker 1: as early as kindergarten, you know, are taught about Nazism,
Speaker 1: you know, in the Holocaust, and about the truth of
Speaker 1: of that sort of brutality and and mass murder. Because
Speaker 1: there's a recognition that if if young people learn about Nazism,
Speaker 1: if they learn about the ideas that's trustified it, that
Speaker 1: they will be able to recognize that and we'll be
Speaker 1: able to recognize that and prevented from resurfacing. While of course,
Speaker 1: in comparison, in the United States, we're in denial even
Speaker 1: about how horrible slavery truly was. I mean, you still
Speaker 1: have U s senators, you know you are. Senator Tom
Speaker 1: Cotton last year when he was blasting the sixteen nineteen projects,
Speaker 1: insinuated that slavery wasn't necessary evil. Like a home they
Speaker 1: had a male they were saying. Tom Cotton wrote, as
Speaker 1: the founding father said, slavery was the necessary evil upon
Speaker 1: which the Union was built. It's it's always something, It's
Speaker 1: always something. After the break, Let's let's talk about the future.
Speaker 1: Let's get optimistic after the break and figure out ways
Speaker 1: that we could infuse other MLK quotes into these people
Speaker 1: miles and figure out ways to properly honor Martin Luther
Speaker 1: King's legacy. This is beyond the scenes. Let's talk solutions.
Speaker 1: I found this interest in Randall that you know, we
Speaker 1: have for decades fought for Martin Luther King day, you know,
Speaker 1: and to have it be recognized and also sidebar for
Speaker 1: his face to not be put on club flyers to
Speaker 1: promote nightclub ignorance. Please stop it, full stop. Sorry, white people,
Speaker 1: is a black I'm just talking to the black people
Speaker 1: right now. Okay, we're back. This poster has a lot
Speaker 1: of people shaking their heads and discussed. It shows Dr
Speaker 1: Martin Luther Jr. We're in a gold chain promoting a
Speaker 1: party called Freedom to Twerk. It was supposed to take
Speaker 1: place at this club, but it's been canceled. The owner
Speaker 1: says he's disgusted and there'll be no twerking here in
Speaker 1: all of the fighting for m l K Day. M
Speaker 1: l k's family recently has called for no celebration of
Speaker 1: m l K Day without action on voting right to legislation.
Speaker 1: Is this an effective strategy to try to get people
Speaker 1: to honor him and provoke change or does this just
Speaker 1: give conservatives out and just go, well, you don't want
Speaker 1: m l K Day? Sounds good to me, I guess
Speaker 1: to me, I can appreciate the sentiment, but I maybe
Speaker 1: y'all do something different. I don't like do anything on
Speaker 1: MLK Day. I'm like, this is my day off. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, do you have like m l Kate
Speaker 1: Day fireworks or something. I just maybe I've been missing
Speaker 1: out for plast nine years. But but I don't think
Speaker 1: we should throw out the baby with the bath wat
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Like we need we need
Speaker 1: to revamp how we think of Martin Luther King and
Speaker 1: how we teach them. But we should keep the day off,
Speaker 1: you know, and like we shouldn't be tasteless with you know,
Speaker 1: mattress sales are for black people or something. But it's
Speaker 1: like let's keep the same. But just to say, okay, well,
Speaker 1: let's let's go, let's ask Mr research it. Dr Kendy,
Speaker 1: When you were out and you were shopping and you
Speaker 1: see them mL K off prices on clothing, do you
Speaker 1: go out and buy something in honor of Dr King? Like?
Speaker 1: How do you feel about the commercialization of Martin Luther King?
Speaker 1: Or is that just capitalism? Which is a totally separate
Speaker 1: podcast episode. I mean, I think that the sad fact
Speaker 1: is almost everything has been commodified and and you know,
Speaker 1: including some of our sort of greatest historical figures, you know,
Speaker 1: like King and so. And that's really as you stated,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a function of capitalism, and and so
Speaker 1: I think that's that's a sort of a different type
Speaker 1: of issue. I think, short of a sale on sniper rifles,
Speaker 1: I'm okay with the commercialization because at least, let me
Speaker 1: put it this way, Randall, I'm not defended by it,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense, Like I don't like it, but
Speaker 1: these are just stupid stores that are just going, what
Speaker 1: are y'all celebrating? Cool? Let me put that on a
Speaker 1: flyer next week to sell more sodas or sell more groceries.
Speaker 1: There will be some sort of they won't call it
Speaker 1: a George Floyd sale, but it'll be some I ga't
Speaker 1: if you mark my words, dog, mark my words. This
Speaker 1: summer there's going to be some sort of unity unity
Speaker 1: sale or some ship. It's it's they're not gonna call
Speaker 1: it George Floyd, but it's gonna oddly be around just
Speaker 1: a little bit before June tenth, so not a June tenth,
Speaker 1: but in the ballpark of it. And I think that's where,
Speaker 1: you know, because like June tenth is that's another perfect example,
Speaker 1: you know, Dr Kendy where yeah, I wasn't rocking with
Speaker 1: June tent for real, for real, but then now it's, oh,
Speaker 1: well we care about the Blacks, so let's show them
Speaker 1: that we care. Now you get a day off for
Speaker 1: June teenth, which I'm happy to have, uh, which I
Speaker 1: also full disclosure. I think, Trevor, no, what do you
Speaker 1: give us off? Randall? Two days for June thing? I think,
Speaker 1: so we got more than a day. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: I understand where that comes from. It's not my favorite
Speaker 1: thing about Martin Luther King and the way he's been
Speaker 1: kind of whitewashing. I guess in this into this degree
Speaker 1: you know, greenwashed, but you know it it troubles me,
Speaker 1: but I think there's far worse issues surrounding his legacy,
Speaker 1: which to that question, you know, Dr Kendy, how do
Speaker 1: we properly honor m OK's legacy while also deep emphasizing him,
Speaker 1: like do you exalt him and go? But also you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, like you know what it's like again,
Speaker 1: if I'm gonna use the outcast and now if I
Speaker 1: take Randall's outcast analogy, Dr King is under three thousand,
Speaker 1: but don't forget big boy had some bars too. I
Speaker 1: think maybe one of the ways is, you know, if
Speaker 1: people want to talk about and I know about King,
Speaker 1: we can sort of meet them where they are. So okay,
Speaker 1: let's talk about you know, Martha King. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: Southern Christian Leadership Conference in the world Ella Baker played
Speaker 1: in the building of that organization, or and so we
Speaker 1: can use King to not only sort of describe his
Speaker 1: specific legacy and his message, but also to teach about
Speaker 1: other sort of historical figures who worked with him, who
Speaker 1: thought in the ways that he did, or even who
Speaker 1: thought differently. Um, And I think that's maybe an effective
Speaker 1: way to sort of honor King, to really sort of
Speaker 1: honor the whole movement and really honored the long standing
Speaker 1: movement of black people to be free? What do you think?
Speaker 1: And I hate this question, but I only hear white
Speaker 1: people asked it. So I'm going to ask you as
Speaker 1: a black person, I'm gonna ask both of you. So, Randall,
Speaker 1: what do you think Dr King would have to say
Speaker 1: about these times that we're in right now? Oh? Thank
Speaker 1: you white white? No? Like seriously, like if Dr King
Speaker 1: had a Twitter account, If he had a Twitter account,
Speaker 1: first off, do you think he would respond to trolls?
Speaker 1: I think he would want just because he'd be an
Speaker 1: old dude and he wouldn't really get technology, like he'd
Speaker 1: forced her tweet important stuff, but anything like I got
Speaker 1: stand by the Nigerian prince again, you know, like though
Speaker 1: there'd be of course that comes to the age. It
Speaker 1: takes everybody, doesn't matter who you are. But if you
Speaker 1: had a Twitter, yeah, I feel like you would respond
Speaker 1: to the the day's events. And because the wather you
Speaker 1: framed it, I guess is like they would think that
Speaker 1: everything is going on as bad. And I'll just be like, well, bro,
Speaker 1: if you actually do care, if this isn't just you
Speaker 1: trying to like getting my mentions of today, I'd be like,
Speaker 1: read just two other speeches by him, just two other things,
Speaker 1: like read letter from Birmingham Jent, you know, and see
Speaker 1: how he thinks about like white moderation or something like that,
Speaker 1: and just be like, just do the smallest amount of
Speaker 1: work possible. Dr Kendy. If Martin Luther King was on
Speaker 1: MSNBC tonight in a four bucks arguing with two other
Speaker 1: conservatives and jewelry read a Tiffany Cross. Um, I'm just
Speaker 1: just being silling, but like seriously, like because there's so
Speaker 1: much that's happening now that I feel like compares to
Speaker 1: his day. Like we talk about Karen's calling the cops
Speaker 1: on black people. You don't think white women wouldn't calling
Speaker 1: the cops on black folks when they was marching and
Speaker 1: they win suits. Yeah, what would what would Dr? That's
Speaker 1: a good one. What would he have to say about
Speaker 1: Rachel Dolazal claiming she's black? Would you could just be
Speaker 1: a welcome to the movement, Donda sort of black stuff?
Speaker 1: I mean, well, King grew up in a black community,
Speaker 1: went to a black church, went to a black college. Um,
Speaker 1: and so you know, I think I actually would wonder
Speaker 1: what he would say about about somebody who considers themselves transracial.
Speaker 1: But but I also think, you know he would say,
Speaker 1: like tonight on Joyce Show, he would say, as I
Speaker 1: stated in in nineteen sixty three, the filipbuster is is
Speaker 1: a tool of Jim Crow. And the fact that we
Speaker 1: have democratic politicians who are refusing to do away with
Speaker 1: this tool of Jim Crow that I've literally fought my
Speaker 1: whole career. The fact that you have Republicans who are
Speaker 1: honoring me at the same time they refused to do
Speaker 1: away with what I fought against my whole career. You know,
Speaker 1: the heart of hypocrisy. And who the hell used my
Speaker 1: voice for that dodge called commercial I did not authorize.
Speaker 1: It's just it's just so fun to do his voice. Man,
Speaker 1: It's just I think that's another reason for him all
Speaker 1: the time, because it's fun. We have gone beyond the scenes.
Speaker 1: We have done it. Dr Abrahm x kind thank you
Speaker 1: so much for coming on the show. Randall otis as well,
Speaker 1: thank you so so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you Roy, Thank you Randall. Let me know when
Speaker 1: y'all get that racism stuff solid up there in Boston.
Speaker 1: Dr Kendy Ill swing back you know, we need to
Speaker 1: talk about that next time. Because they got the new mayor.
Speaker 1: Y'all got the new man at a minority mail and
Speaker 1: a woman the show. Good. Yeah, indeed, all right, thank
Speaker 1: you to take care of y'all. Listen to the Daily
Speaker 1: Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast, the radio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Even if you get
Speaker 1: him in the back alley, we're there, you know, Frank
Speaker 1: knows us H