WEBVTT - Preparing for the Next Pandemic 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.840 you the latest news from the world to business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.680 plus technology, politics, economics, all purtnising the power of Business 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.000 analysts in more than one twenty countries. You can download 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.239 Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:25.200 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.880 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.640 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. A few headlines we just 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.400 want to mention, uh in terms of COVID number of 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:38.200 recorded COVID nineteen fatalities surpassing five million. As the world 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.440 continue to roll out the biggest vaccination program in history, 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.360 some seven billion shots have been administered across the globe 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:46.120 and effort that has really helped to slow the pace 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.159 of deaths. And here in the US we're set to 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:52.120 surpass a new milestone in vaccination efforts. Today of adults 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:54.880 will have received at least one dose of the vaccine. 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:57.200 So that's some good news. Yeah, that that feels like 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.600 a pretty significant number. We saw Maderna, though under a 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.400 lot of rusher, down almost close to seven percent at 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.920 it's lows here after the Covin nineteen shot, though failed 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.440 to win US regulatory authorization for teenagers, the US FDA 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:10.720 saying it needs more time to consider the biotech company 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.520 shots in this age group, as the agency moles the 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.760 risk of a rare heart inflammation. All right, let's get 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:18.680 to it. A go to voice for us on the 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.040 pandemic over the past eighteen nineteen months and counting. Dr 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.000 Sandra Galia, he's doing a professor at Boston University School 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:26.920 of Public Health. He's got a new book at the 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.640 Contagion Next Time, because folks, there's gonna be a next time. 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:32.880 He joins us again on the phone from Boston. The 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:34.600 book is called The Contagion Next Time. The other stuff 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:37.520 I just added in Dr Galia. Great to have you 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.600 here with Tim and myself. How are you? Um? Well, 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:42.160 thank your girl, Thank you and you and Tim for 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:43.920 having me on again. Well, it's good to have you here. 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.480 You always help make sense of the deluge of headlines 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:49.280 that come out when it comes to the pandemic and 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:53.040 the vaccine um. In terms of kids getting the vaccine, 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:55.800 are you hopeful? Does it feel like we're moving forward, 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.440 that that's going to be a significant accomplishment maybe the 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.360 next few months. Yeah, I am hopeful. I think it's 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.240 a step in the right direction. And as we've discussed before, 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.040 and as we know, kids have been at low risk 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.000 of getting COVID and low risk of being sick from COVID. 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.519 Having said that, they represent a group that potentially could 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:16.480 have a symptomatic COVID and pass it on to others. 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.600 So having kids vaccinated first of all protect tickets themselves, 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.799 of course, but I think also reduces the number of 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.440 people in the population who are susceptible to COVID and 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.960 reducing transmission fundamentally. Where we want to get to right 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.000 now when you were mentioning in the intro but of 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.359 adults having at least one shot, is having few and 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:36.720 fewer and fewer people who are susceptible to the virus 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.320 so that the virus stops transmitting. Given that we've seen 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.320 hesitancy among US adults for many months about getting a vaccine, 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.440 do you think that parents will be hesitant to give 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.280 this vaccine to kids if, like you said, kids have 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.640 shown that they are not as affected by COVID. Well, 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:55.040 I suppose there are two ways of looking at that. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.239 I think undoubtedly we're going to see some hesitancy, but 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.480 we also are much more are accustomed to having kids 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.880 be vaccinated. Obviously, there are many mandatory pediatric vaccines that 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:08.920 kids have to show proof of before going to school, 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:11.880 so I'm hoping that that will offset some of the incitancy. 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:15.200 I'm worried that the vaccine for kids comes at a 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.760 time when we've been talking seemingly endlessly about vaccine hesitancy, 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.440 which undoubted little color some of the reaction to vaccinating kids. 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.359 But I think all parents and parents listening need to 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.359 know that the FDA takes safety enormously, sues for the 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.600 first thing they look at, and these vaccines are safe 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:33.960 and effective for kids. Hey, Dr Gilia, what about when 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:35.640 it comes to mixing and matching? And people who listen 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:37.640 regularly know that this is a conversation, Caroline, I have 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.560 had a lot both on air and constantly. We're still 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.480 trying to make sense of it. Vaccines. What do we 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.800 need to know about potentially getting a moderna booster and 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:51.160 you know, vice versa. Yeah, the data are not not 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:52.800 as sharp as one would like them to be. But 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.240 more or less, we know that mixing and matching is 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.840 actually fine. There's some question as to what are not 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.560 actually Mixing and magic might be better than getting the 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.040 same kind of vaccine, but I'm not entirely sure that 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.880 that's that's certainly right, I got modern at the first time, 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:07.920 and I got a booster of mittern as well. Um. 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:11.320 But I think fundamentally what matters is anybody who's all 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:13.400 rule for a booster should get a booster. And it 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.680 doesn't really matter which one of these vaccines one gets. 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:18.640 We we've actually been quite lucky, as we've discussed previously 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.840 on your show, that these vaccines are actually excellent. They 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:25.680 really are highly applicationous vaccines with excellent safety profiles, and 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.960 that that's actually a remarkable achievement, right, It certainly has. 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:30.920 It does feel like it's helped us in our fight 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.440 against this pandemic um, because we need to be ready 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.480 for the next time. And you write about this the 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:41.280 contagion next time, I mean it's going to happen. Correct. 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.120 This may have been a first for many of us 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:45.920 in terms of a generation of understanding what a pandemic 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.120 is like, but there will be more. There will be 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.599 And we've had many closenesses. I mean, stars one which 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.080 was about ten years ago, was was an extraordinarily close miss, 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.240 and that that was a virus which was perhaps less 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:01.480 transmissible but potentially more lethal then Source copey Do, which 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:06.200 is the virus behind the COVID nineteen. So the odds 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:07.960 are it will happen, and it's not a matter of if, 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:10.200 but a matter of when. So it seems to me 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.040 like now is the time for us to start thinking 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.400 about what do we need to do to mitigate the 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:19.400 next pandemic? What do we need to do well in 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.280 the same breath as I mentioned and that vaccines have 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.120 been excellent, They've been efficacious and safe, and I think 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.160 we definitely need to do work on making sure we 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.960 have rapid availability of vaccines and detection of pathogens and 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.640 all that. I argue in the book that that's not enough. 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.600 And the reason I argued that is because the consequences 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:40.000 of COVID were fundamentally social consequences, economic consequences that reflect 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.200 things that we were doing poorly before COVID hit, and 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:45.280 I argue that we should tend to those things just 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.920 to give one concrete example, we as a country are 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.280 live sicker, shorter lives than do all other high income countries, 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.200 meaning we have higher prevalence of things like diabetes, hyppertension, 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.440 and those are actually the conditions that made us vulnerable 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:02.560 to COVID, because COVID has a higher severity among people 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.000 with underlying conditions, and that those are the people have 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.240 been a greater risk of dying. So we should be 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.400 looking at what is it that causes those diseases? Why 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:12.800 are we at higher prevalence than other high income countries 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.839 and dealing with them now, not when we have another pandemic? 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.599 Dr Galia, are you optimistic here? Help help? As Carol mentioned, 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:21.280 you don't seem to have woken up on the wrong 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.360 side of the bed. I'm just being cynical today, but 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.799 I just bring it out there. I just don't see 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:32.200 I I don't see I don't see evidence yet of 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:37.080 a shift in American public health following this pandemic. I 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.520 am going to be optimistic because I prefer alternative Okay. 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.279 I actually think that that it is a good time 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.000 to have hope, that that we are paying attention to 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.359 issues that we should have been paying attention to years 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:52.920 and decades ago. Now will we or will we not? Well? 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.120 I think it behooves us to have the conversations that 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.960 pushes us forward. Colleague recently said we are at the 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:01.239 moment of a renaissance of these ideas, and I actually 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.479 think that captures it beautifully. I think we are at 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.279 the moment where we are realizing that unless we tend 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:10.000 to some fundamentals in our world, the next pandemic will 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.000 hit and we'll hit us just as hard, it's not harder. 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:14.760 So the moment is now. If we don't tender these 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.400 things now, I'm not sure when we will, And frankly, 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:19.760 if another pandemic, kids will be sitting ducks and will 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:24.520 deserve the consequences that come with it. So let's talk 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.840 about health care, something you know so well, and you 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.360 guys there at Boston University, you know you are are 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:35.040 educating the next generation who will be figuring out wellness 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:39.360 health medical policies for years to come. How do we 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.520 change the system that is so entrenched on dealing with 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:48.800 you when you're sick versus really thinking about keeping you well. 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.080 I think you're captured it well. Fundamentally, we want to 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:58.000 orient our system to reward providers to keep people well 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.240 rather than to treat people when they're sick. Now, there 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:01.520 are many different ways of doing that, and we can 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.800 get into the mittigridy of health policy, but I think 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.520 there are efforts moving in that regard. I had the 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.960 privilege of conversation with the administrator of CMS Decenter for 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.760 Medicaid and Medicare Services a few weeks ago, and I 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:18.520 think she's committed to this idea to innovating programs in 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.280 in that direction. And you are seeing it in a 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.400 big health system. So organizations like Kaiser, for example, that 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:28.600 are launching programs to incentivize their doctors to keep people healthy. 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:31.760 None of us really like going to the doctor, right. 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:33.640 We actually want to be as healthy for as long 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.559 as possible. But we have been going through a system 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.640 where my incentive, which is just to stay healthy, is 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:41.439 not the same as my doctors incentive, which is to 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:43.080 have me sick so I can go see him as 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.240 much as I can so that he can build and 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.320 and that needs to change, and that needs to change 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.480 so that we together see that our shared value is 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:54.280 staying healthy and living healthy, long lives. You really said that, now, 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.319 Like that's interesting, right, I mean you actually went there 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:01.679 that I mean, for give me. But the medical community 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.559 benefits when we're sick, it does well. I mean, I 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:07.480 don't think this tradition give you no I know, but 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:09.719 people don't at least say it. And if if you 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:13.360 talk to people within the medical community, doctors don't say right. 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.319 Doctors don't say I'm a doctor and I'm saying it. 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.880 And I think that is a misalignment. And you know, 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.920 I think doctors go into medical school to do the 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.040 right thing. Doctors in the medical school to keep people healthy. 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.760 But then of course we stream people through the ways 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:28.520 in which we incentivize them and pay them. And then 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:30.920 doctors are rational actors and they operate with in the system. 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.080 So it requires system change. It requires us to accept 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.520 that collectively we want to stay healthy. That means we 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.000 want our healthcare system to keep us healthy, and we 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.800 want to invest in parks and clean air and drinkable 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:45.280 water and safe food, all of which also keep us healthy. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.320 So if there's one lever you could pull that would 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.240 make a big significant change in making sure that we're 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:52.320 all focused on keeping people well. And just got about 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.480 forty seconds, what would that lever? What would be the 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:58.240 lever you would, Paul, I think as at one lever, 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.839 I would actually make sure that everybody in understand the 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:04.679 next presidential debate, the presidential candidates are are grilled with 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:06.400 questions about what are you going to do to keep 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.520 people healthy? Not just to make them better when they're sick, 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.480 because I think then we'll see true investment at federal, state, 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:17.720 local levels in the structures that make us healthy. Yeah. Yeah, 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:19.920 it's tough. And you know what's hard though, too is 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.400 for politicians. What matters for voters is how much money 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:24.880 do I have? What am I taking home? Do I 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:26.840 have a job, do I feel confident? What's the economy 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.040 and the economic outlook? How much money each month is 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:33.800 going to healthcare? Too? Um, Really thoughtful stuff. Dr Sandra Galia, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.320 thank you so much. Dean Boston University, School of Public 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.520 Health on the phone from Boston. Check out his new book. 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:43.760 It is called The Contagion. Next time, this is Bloomberg 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.440 Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.720 Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, eighteen billion dollars in emergency 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.199 loans to eight seven countries to get through the pandemic. 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.959 Got one and eighteen billions? Did I did I leave 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.199 off a number? Oh? I must have ye, hundred and 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.240 eighteen billions. Lot, it's a lot. And over understanding This 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.600 is the crux of this story. Over understanding or accounting 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.839 of where much of it went en eighteen That's kind 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:11.640 of what this story is about. I don't know where 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.720 it went. How much are we talking about? All right, 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.839 let's get to it. Jonius right now is the reporter 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.280 who wrote at Bloomberg News, senior investigations writer Sheridan Process. 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.199 She joins us on the phone in Washington, d c 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:28.600 Um Sharon, tell us about this story. What's going on? Alright, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.640 good afternoons. Yeah, it's it's fascinating. You know, this is 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.719 public money, a hundred and eighteen billion dollars that the 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.079 I M MAP said, Look, we're going to rush this 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:42.599 out and try to help countries UH with the COVID pandemic, 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.800 and we will get the money out in a hurry. 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:50.680 But as the funds managing director said Christaline to George Eva, 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.640 she said, do whatever it takes to fight the pandemic, 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.160 but make sure you keep the receipts. And the reason 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.679 is because some of those countries have been required to 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.920 audit how they spent that money afterwards, and now it's 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.400 about eighteen months later, we're trying to figure out where 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.760 it all went. Who is requiring them to audit? Be 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.719 I Mass as a condition of dispersing more loans to 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.839 some of these countries, has said, look, we'll give you 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.400 more money if you can come up with an audit 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:18.559 of how you spent that last COVID money that we 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.920 gave you. And so it's quite interesting to see the 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.560 countries that have been required to do these audits. In fact, 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.400 only forty countries, less than half out of the seven 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.080 that received the loans in the first place, have been 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.440 required to come up with an account of how they 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.520 spent that money. Well, and what's interesting is that you know, um, 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:40.680 here we go. And it's just another reminder that during 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.000 the pandemic listen, everybody was racing to understand what was 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.840 going on, trying to figure out how to fix the situation. 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:48.679 I mean, I was spending like a hundred dollars on 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.520 ten and nine masks at the time, so I wasn't 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:53.400 saving receipts. I mean, Joel, this is where we were 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.040 blueboard business. We get our Joe Webber joining our conversation. 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.439 I mean we were frantically trying to do things. Governments 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.760 were throwing money at things. I mean, there's going to 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.800 be screw ups totally. But we're so far past that 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:05.559 point where now we get to look back and second 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:07.920 guess everything and try and find bids of dollars that 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:10.400 walked out the door. So so she how far along 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.640 into the audit process are all the countries that receives 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:18.040 some of those some of this money. Well, very interestingly, 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.079 we know that some of the countries have done the 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.200 audits that were required. For example, Nigeria was the biggest 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.599 recipient of this money. They got three point for a 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.520 billion dollars. They have done an audited apparently, but we 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.640 don't have public access to it, so we don't know 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.520 how much of their money got misspendam disappropriated. But what 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.800 we do know is that in countries like Cameroon and 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:42.800 Malawi and even Congo to DRC, we are starting to 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.080 see the results of those audits being published and they're 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:50.160 showing that hundreds of millions of dollars at least so 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.760 far has been misappropriated. Um Now, Transparency International has been 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.600 trying to track this and figure out where this money went. 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:59.599 And it's quite interesting that when you ask the I 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:01.800 m F the about it, what they like to say is, well, 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:03.920 we disburse the money and it went to those countries, 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.520 and those countries they spent their money then on COVID relief, 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:10.839 so you can't really trace it back to us and 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.000 say it was ours at that point. So there's a 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.559 little bit of a transparency issue in terms of who 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:17.719 is going to be accountable for this well. As Tim 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.000 said to me during the break before you started problems 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.440 in the Congo, yeah, I mean shocking well, and it's led, 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.560 as you write share, it's led to former health minister 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.440 being arrested in August, though he has publicly denied the allegation. Hey, Sherry, 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:33.520 I'm wondering if there are any examples, any reporting of 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:36.720 countries where the debits equal to credits, where things do 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.760 add up. You know, we're not even getting that level 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.360 of this disclosure at this point. Um. There are certainly 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.000 some countries that, especially in Latin Herricket, that have put 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.239 in place, uh, these kind of websites where you supposedly 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:51.520 are able to go on and see the contracts that 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:55.560 were awarded and who got them. Um. This was also 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.760 in some cases required by the NMF, and the im 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.480 not says, well, if you include that universe of countries, 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.040 then we actually do have quite a lot of accountability 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:07.280 out there. But the question of whether and when these 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.920 audits of the misspending are ever going to be released 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.120 is a good one. But you know that's said. I mean, 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:14.640 the i m F had a very difficult dilemma at 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:16.040 the time. I mean, this is one of the most 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:22.200 difficult things that UM, that a relief effort can can 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.360 ask is do you push the money out quickly, UM 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.320 and try to just hope and make sure it gets 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:29.200 to some of the right places, or do you take 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:33.000 longer time to put state guards in place and then 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:37.240 in that event you also cause lives j loss. You know, 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.400 I think the speed at which money was deployed I 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:42.200 kind of joked earlier, but I mean I think it 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:46.320 was imperative considering the circumstances. But there are also has been, 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.120 you know, some precedent for this and that eventually would 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.280 ask for receipts. Isn't that right, Jerry? This is the 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.520 first time really that we are starting to actually see, 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:59.200 um this this level of accountability you know, the IMF 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:04.720 only released in t to put into place, uh, increased 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.920 safeguards for corrupt anti corruption measures. And so this is 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.840 actually the first kind of global crisis in which we 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.760 do have at least some attempts to try to figure 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.720 out where that money has gone. And we're in general 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.680 we've gotten better at tracking down um missing money for this. 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.440 And you spoke with people at Transparency International, what what 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:32.040 kind of perspective did they offer on on being able 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.120 to monitor this much money? You go, I'm missing? So 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.800 what groups like Transparency International and also Human Rights Watch 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:40.560 has been looking at this too. What they'd like to 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:45.400 see is actually just a lot more accountability and transparency 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.040 on the on the part of these governments in terms 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:52.840 of their spending, what sorts of contracts and uh kind 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.160 of you know, just the receipts and everything that that 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.240 the IMF had asked for to be available online. And 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.400 the idea is that when you do that, then you 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.200 have civil society in each of these countries to be 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:06.760 able to follow up. You have media pressure, you have 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:09.840 you know, various forces to be able to say, hey, 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.879 look this money was misspent. That money, you know, looks 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:15.720 like it went to the right place and that actually 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.040 acts as as a as a checks and balances on 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:20.240 the whole system. Well, the whole point is, you know, 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:22.439 and you hope for some change because ultimately we may 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.240 joke about it and not surprised to see maybe you know, 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:27.119 in some of these parts of the world developing in 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.520 particular where there's you know, it's business as usual in 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.960 terms of misallocation of funds or more severe. But people 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:38.440 are impacted as a result, right for sure. I mean 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:43.080 what what Transparency International says is, you know, look, whenever, 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.720 whenever you have this misallocation of money, it's it's not 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.800 just about money, It's about lives, right, It's about less 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.280 money for ventilators, less money for mobile hospitals and ppe 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.639 and you know, it really comes down to people who 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.480 just aren't getting the relief at the very bottom of 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:04.440 the food same. So what will change going forward if 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.200 more money uh leaves the m f H to to 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.680 you know, countries and need are there any safeguards that 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.000 have been in place put in place now that weren't 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.360 there a year ago? But the must says that they 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.399 are as as a condition of some of the future 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.240 loans that they're giving out their demanding more accountability, more transparency. 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:27.560 Of course, a lot of these countries, as we know, 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.400 I mean they you know, even at the best of times, 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:34.479 they really sort of lacked safeguards and they're spending uh 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.119 you know, sometimes can't always be traced quite so easily. 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.480 It doesn't mean there's necessarily, you know, embeddlement of people 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.040 rushing off money in his bank account. Sure do we 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:46.560 gotta run, but it's uh definitely start. We should check 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.280 out at Bloomberg dot com dot com shod in Process 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:51.680 senior investigations report at Bloomberg News and our thanks to 0:18:51.720 --> 0:19:01.600 Joel Webber, editor a Business Week. This is Bloomberg Business 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:05.520 Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stenovic 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.719 on Bloomberg Radio. You are listening to Bloomberg Business Week 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.119 Carol Master along with Tim Stanovic and in Focus this 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.840 week Top twenty six meeting in Glasgow, Scotland. Top of 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.560 mine for everyone there whether rivalry between the world's two 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.960 biggest polluters who churn out, cough up you can pick 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:26.000 your description some global admissions they are the big polluters? 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.720 Will they both be agents of change? Our roadblocks in 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.520 the process and he wrote about it in the Saturday column. 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:34.639 Andy Brown is editorial director at Bloomberg New Economy. He 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.440 joins us on the phone from New York City. So, Andy, 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.159 the rivalry between the US and China doesn't It's not 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:43.920 just when it comes to technology, it's not just when 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:48.760 it comes to physical might. It also comes to the 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:53.240 green ambitions. So who is going to win here are 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:58.360 the incentives aligned? Well? The question, the question, I think 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.920 is whether these two trees they're going to race each 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.439 other to the top or to the bottom on climate Um, 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.840 it's pretty obvious that we're not going to get decarbonization 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:12.880 in the time frame that we needed and at scale 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:18.480 which we needed without real collaboration, deep collaboration between the 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.919 US and China. Um. They are, as you just noted, 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:27.000 the world's two largest polluters account of all polluted pollute, 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.480 all emissions, China is by far the biggest China. China 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:36.080 is has more emissions than all developing countries combined. These 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.440 emissions are bigger than the next four countries combined, that's 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:44.920