1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: Should Know. And this is definitely the chipperest I'm going 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: to sound for this episode right now. 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and another joke free edition. 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Possibly, we're definitely hitting that. 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: Should we see oa? 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's there, Yeah for sure. Please go ahead. 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I did laugh. There are unspeakable atrocities 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: that we will discuss of the horrors of well I 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: was about to say the horrors of war, but it 13 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: really are just the horrors of human experimentation during war. 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: And so children should not listen to this, and people 15 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: that are really haunted by that kind of thing should 16 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: not listen to this. 17 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we can. It's not like there's spoilers 18 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 2: or anything. We're going to talk about human vivisection, abuse 19 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: of like children, women, the elderly, like it's it's as 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 2: bad as humans can possibly do to other humans what 21 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 2: we're going to talk about today. So if that's not 22 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: your bag, we will definitely not blame you for skipping 23 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: this one. 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: That's right, But we do need to thank a listener 25 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: sitting this one in. This came from you know, I 26 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: don't even know if I'm going to say her last name. 27 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: Her name is Amy, and you know who you are, 28 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm glad you sitting this my way 29 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: because this is something I knew nothing about and I 30 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: think people, you know, part of the fabric of the 31 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: show is is teaching people some of the unspeakable things 32 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: that have happened that you would not learn in school. 33 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: And so Amy sitting us in. So thank you, Amy, 34 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: and we'll just forward any complaints to you. 35 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Amy. 36 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 37 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: I had heard of Unit seven thirty one before several times. Nothing. 38 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: I had no idea the detail that I know now 39 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: about them, But you know, I was walking on like 40 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 2: we'll never talk about that. So thanks again, Amy. But 41 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: I guess let's just start at the beginning. Let's give 42 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: a little background, because what we're talking about here is 43 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: a detachment and I think an Imperial Army unit from 44 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: Japan that started up in the nineteen thirties and it 45 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: committed medical atrocities war crimes that actually rival easily rival 46 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: Joseph Mengel's hideous medical War crimes at Auschwitz Death Camp, 47 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: like the stuff that the Japanese essentially did during World 48 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: War Two to Chinese and Russian and to a lesser 49 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: extent Mongolian civilians and then sometimes prisoners of war, including 50 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: American It's just it's unspeakable and we're going to try 51 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 2: to speak it as best we can, but it doesn't 52 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: make sense without a little bit of context. If you 53 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: have a little bit context, in my opinion, of where 54 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: this evolved from, it doesn't doesn't excuse it doesn't explain it. 55 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: It just makes slightly more sense than the Japanese just 56 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: suddenly did this horrible thing and now everything's back to normal. 57 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, And just to add an additional comment to the 58 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: sort of comparison to Nazi atrocities, certainly not in scale 59 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: that was happening in Germany and Poland and elsewhere, but 60 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: as far as just the how reprehensible some of this 61 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: stuff is. 62 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, No, No, this is a 63 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 2: separate thing for sure, and there's no comparison it. This happened. 64 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: This happened. It's just the reason I'm comparing the two 65 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: is because most people walk around understanding that the Nazis 66 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 2: did these horrible atrocities, and what I'm trying to get 67 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: across is that the Japanese did too during World War II. Yeah, 68 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 2: it's just for really specific reasons that the average person 69 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: isn't walking around knowing about that, which we'll talk about 70 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:06,839 Speaker 2: later too. 71 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, all right, So you promised talk of backstory, 72 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: and we'll get into that here, because the backstory is 73 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: is starting sort of in the late eighteen hundreds. The 74 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: government of Japan was it sort of went through a 75 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: movement where it was looking to build itself up into 76 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: a superpower, like you know, just like Europe was, just 77 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: like the United States was, And a lot of this 78 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: was tied up in just sort of modernizing the country, 79 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: whether it was the military or how they functioned economically, 80 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: and sort of this ultranationalist movement grew up around all this. 81 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you just said the key word here ultranationalist, 82 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: which is I mean nationalism is fervent to begin with. 83 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 2: Ultranationalism reaches a fanatical level, and that's kind of this 84 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: journey that began to infect Japanese society starting in the 85 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: twenties or thirties. And the reason why is because Japan 86 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: took a number of like kind of punches and was 87 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: kind of down both economically and as far as like 88 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: cultural honor goes like. Japan helped the US and UK 89 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: win World War One, but were left out of the 90 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: table when the spoils of war were divided up. That 91 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 2: was a big black eye and the national pride. The 92 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: Great Depression hit Japan disproportionately hard compared to some of 93 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 2: the other countries outside of the US. There was just 94 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that it was clear that the 95 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 2: leaders of Japanese society weren't equipped to handle. And the 96 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 2: worse it made Japan look to the Japanese, the more 97 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 2: the national pride felt it needed to be defended. And 98 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: that's where that nationalism and then eventually ultra nationalism came from. 99 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 2: And the reason that we're talking about this today is 100 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: because it became a really thick component of the Japanese military. 101 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: Nationalist fanaticism. 102 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it can become a very and usually 103 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: does become a very dangerous thing. 104 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: Yes, everywhere anywhere in all of. 105 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: History, Yeah, for sure. In the nineteen thirties, there was 106 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: a part of China and northeastern China kind of near 107 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: Korea in Russia and Mongolia called Manchuria, where Japan had 108 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people that were living there, had settled there. 109 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: They had a lot of influence on that area. The 110 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: Chinese government did not like this, of course, they were 111 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: in the middle of a civil war with the Nationalists, 112 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: which was the ruling party at the time. The Nationalist 113 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: government with Shang Kai Shek and then Malo Zedong's Communists 114 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: were trying to take control, but they had a common 115 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: enemy in Japan, and Japan was sort of encroaching on 116 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: this area in northeastern China in the thirties. 117 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the ulter nationalism, I said, was so thick 118 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 2: in the Japanese military it actually created almost like an 119 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 2: additional branch, especially for the Kwantung Army that had basically 120 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: invaded Manchuria. They weren't following orders from the Japanese Imperial 121 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 2: Army heads, the leaders of the actual military. They were 122 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: kind of working on their own to expand the empire 123 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: and they were successful, so they were getting away with it. 124 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: They were also getting away with it because they would 125 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: assassinate you or they would stage a coup attempt, like 126 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: you did not mess with these people, even though they 127 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 2: weren't the leaders the leaders were afraid of like these 128 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: middling officers who were actually these ulternational fanatics. So the 129 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: upshot of all that is that Japan ended up controlling 130 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: Manchuria in the nineteen thirties and set up a puppet 131 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 2: government there, and it was like a big first step 132 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: toward expanding the empire. And one other part of the backstory, 133 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: and then I'll be quiet about the backstory, is that 134 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: part of that ulternationalism was a certain amount of genetic 135 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: and cultural pride in Japan and the Japanese. And there's 136 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: nothing wrong with having pride in your culture, but the 137 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: problem is very often, especially in the context of nationalism 138 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: or ultra nationalism, means everybody else is inferior. And so 139 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: that kind of gave this ultra nationalist detachment of the 140 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: military carte blanc to mistreat anybody who wasn't Japanese, which 141 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: included the Russians, Koreans, Mongolians, and Chinese. That all kind 142 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: of met in Manchuria, which was at the border of 143 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: all of these countries, which is where the Japanese had 144 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: taken over and set up this puppet government. 145 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, anytime you throw the word genetic in there, 146 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: you're probably traveling down a bad road. Yeah, you know, 147 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: and Japan definitely saw themselves, or at least a faction 148 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: of Japan. I'm not going to say like everyone in 149 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: the country, but this ultra nationalistic wing thought they were 150 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: the superior Asian human being on planet Earth at the time. 151 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the ones who didn't think the same way 152 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 2: were too scared to speak up. They were killed, Like 153 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: they killed the Prime minister, Chuck, the military just killed 154 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: the Prime minister, assassinated because it wasn't going along with 155 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: their aims. Okay, so I lied. That was the end 156 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: of the backstory. 157 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: All right. So the puppet government was there in nineteen 158 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: thirty two in Manchuria. The Chinese, like I said, did 159 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: not love this. So they had a common enemy and 160 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: got together to fight, and there was a pretty much 161 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: a full scale war started which started in nineteen thirty 162 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: seven that a lot of people are like, you know, 163 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: you could really point to this as the very beginnings 164 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: of what would be World War two if you want 165 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: to get technical, and so this is just sort of 166 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: what's going on. When Unit seven thirty one is formed 167 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty six under the command of General shiro 168 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: A Shie. I watched this. It was pretty good documentary. Actually, 169 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: it's like an hour long on YouTube. I can't remember 170 00:09:58,080 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: what it was called, but if you're looking for Unit 171 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: seven thirty one docs on YouTube, it's the one that's 172 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: like an hour long on the nose and super professionally done. 173 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: It's called There's Something Wrong with Aunt Shiro? 174 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: Was that it? 175 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: No? No, I was referencing another horrible documentary called There's 176 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 2: Something Wrong with Aunt Diane. Not horrible, horrific. 177 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: Oh, I think I've heard of that one. 178 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 2: Actually, it's It's tough. 179 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll talk offline. Okay, I'm not sure I'm thinking 180 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: of the right one. 181 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: This is definitely the episode to bring it up, and 182 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: I'll tell you that. 183 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: Yeah. So she E was a doctor in the Japanese army, 184 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: was a part of that ultra nationalist wing before the war. 185 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: He was interested in biological weapons and what that might 186 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: offer the army, and supposedly as early as nineteen thirty 187 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: was starting to do some human experimentation. I think, you know, 188 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: as a doctor, though not as a general, correct. 189 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: As both I believe he was. He'd been a general 190 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 2: for a while, or at least a high ranking military official. 191 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: For a while when he started. Okay, so the reason 192 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 2: that we talked so much about Manchuria a second ago 193 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: is because doctor General Ishi realized very quickly that even 194 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: in ultranationalists Japan, people weren't super cool with unwilling human experimentation. 195 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: So he's kind of successively moved his operation further and 196 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 2: further away from the prying eyes of everyday Japanese people 197 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: and ultimately ended up in Manchuria because it was so 198 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 2: it was so lawless as far as like ethics and 199 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: morals regarding civilian treatment and war crimes goes. It was 200 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 2: the kind of place where you could set up a 201 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 2: medical experimentation machine using unwilling participants. It was that kind 202 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: of place. And it also had a steady supply of 203 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 2: inferior human beings. I just made scare quotes for those 204 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: of you who can't see me, who were the Koreans 205 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 2: and the Russians and the Chinese and the Mongolians who 206 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: lived in the area and were just unfortunate to have 207 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,599 Speaker 2: lived in this area that Japan now controlled. 208 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So in nineteen thirty TWOHI became the head 209 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: of the and this is a new operation, but it 210 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: was called the Epidemic Prevention Research Laboratory. This was at 211 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: the Japanese Military Medical School in Tokyo, and Unit seven 212 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: thirty one was known officially we call it Unit seven 213 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: thirty one now for short, but it was the Kwan 214 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: Kwantung Armies Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department or Manchu 215 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: Detachment seven thirty one. But like I said, we call 216 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: it Unit seven thirty one now. And this was the 217 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: main base of operations. It was a there were like 218 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: eight village basically where they kicked all the villagers out 219 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: and said this is ours now they built I mean, 220 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: it was like a prison camp basically. You know, it 221 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: was surrounded by barbed wire, there were guard towers. No 222 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: one was coming in or getting out of there without 223 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: explicit permission. But some of the people invited in were 224 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: doctors and nurses and engineers and pathologists and people that 225 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: specialize in bacterial cultures and stuff like that. So they 226 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: were just sort of staffing up with you know, legitimate 227 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: and medical personnel because they were they were set to 228 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: and as you'll see, it was sort of like, hey, 229 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: let's figure out anything we ever wanted to know about 230 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 1: the human body and how it responds to anything you 231 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: could throw at it, from bullets to knives to anthrax. 232 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 2: Right, And so they actually started out with a fairly 233 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: legitimate mandate, which was figure out how to essentially treat 234 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 2: things like communicable diseases or things that soldiers, Japanese soldiers 235 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: might find useful, like, you know, if there were fighting 236 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 2: in the Pacific theater, figure out how to treat malaria 237 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 2: or something like that. But under the guidance of General Ashi, 238 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: it became they moved from willing, initially willing Japanese soldiers 239 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: who signed consent waiver saying you can test on me, 240 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 2: to unwilling, unfortunate civilians. And there's a lot, as we'll see, 241 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: there's a lot of debate and discussion about what happened when, 242 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: who is involved, And if we were doing this podcast 243 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: twenty years ago, we would be completely lost by this 244 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: point totally. So much has come out that we essentially 245 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: know exactly what happened. And one of the things that 246 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: has really been established over the years is that awareness 247 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 2: of Unit seven thirty one and the unwilling medical experimentation 248 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: war crimes that was carrying out went all the way 249 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: to the top. The Emperor was involved the Emperor's family 250 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: was involved, Prime Minister Tojo was involved. Everybody knew about this. 251 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 2: It was incredibly well funded and it was a huge 252 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 2: prong of the Japanese military. It was just also kept 253 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 2: incredibly secret too. 254 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And when we say unwilling subjects because 255 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: of where it was located, like we said near Korea 256 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: and Russia and Mongolia. Sometimes that were Russians and Koreans 257 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: and Mongolians, but most of them were Chinese citizens. Some 258 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,119 Speaker 1: of them were criminals, some of them were just communists 259 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: that were arrested basically and rounded up, and they were 260 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: brought in like you said, sort of initially like hey, 261 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: let's see what Let's see what happens when you don't 262 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: eat for a while if our soldiers are out there 263 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: and kate get their hands on food and water, Like 264 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: how long can humans go without food and water? Or 265 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: what is this? What does milaria do? Like you were saying, 266 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: like diseases they might encounter, But it really morphed pretty 267 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: quickly into hey, and this might be a good time 268 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: to break but hey, I think we can develop biological weapons, 269 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: so let's see how they react to the human body. 270 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's when it really took a terrible left turn. 271 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so we'll be right back. And it 272 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: gets worse than act too, We'll be right. 273 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: Back, okay, Chuck. So when we were last talking, the 274 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 2: Unit seven thirty one had started to veer off into 275 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: developing biological weapons, and they did so apparently because in 276 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty five, under the Geneva Convention, a bunch of 277 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 2: countries outlawed biological weapons, and apparently that caught the attention 278 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 2: of the Japanese, who were like, wow, if it's worth outlawing, 279 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: those things must really work at killing, so let's try those, right. 280 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 2: It pequed their interest enough that they started a program, 281 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: and so they developed a really extensive pathological development section 282 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 2: where they apparently could develop a trillion microorganisms every few days. Like, 283 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 2: they just grew so many communicable diseases that I saw 284 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 2: in some field tests they would have one hundred and 285 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 2: fifty kilograms of it, Like that's how much they could produce. 286 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: And they were doing things like producing malaria, cholera, typhus, 287 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: the plague. They were growing this stuff. Yeah, and then 288 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 2: they were testing it on those unfortunate, unwilling test subjects 289 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: to see what happened. And that's where the essentially the 290 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 2: medical torture, the war crimes really began. 291 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you want to see what happened to 292 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: someone that was infected with typhus or cholera, you don't 293 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 1: just ask a bunch of questions and check vitals and 294 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: see how Say how are you feeling, and we'll write 295 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: it down. You mentioned vivisection earlier, and that's what would happen. 296 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: Vis Section is, you know, the dissection of a live thing. 297 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: So whether it's a frog in biology class or in 298 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: this case, a human being, it is a live human 299 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: being in these cases being cut open and studied from 300 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: the inside out, and a lot of times without anesthesia. 301 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: I think they did use anesthesia for some stuff here 302 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: and there, at least a documentary said they did, But 303 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: a lot of times they didn't even use anesthesia when 304 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: they would amputate someone's limb or take someone's kidney out 305 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: to study it. 306 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 2: So on vivisection. Nicholas Christoff, the New York Times reporter, 307 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: went to Japan in nineteen ninety five as some of 308 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: this stuff was really coming out and talked to some 309 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 2: people who are actually in Unit seven thirty one, and 310 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 2: he actually interviewed a man who was a doctor at 311 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 2: Unit seven thirty one who had performed one of these 312 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: unanesthetized vivisections, and he quoted the guy in the article. 313 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 2: If you want to hear it, it's it's just insane 314 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 2: that people have ever done this to other people. So 315 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: what the guy said was that the the and I'm 316 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 2: paraphrasing this first part, that when they brought the prisoner in, 317 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: he knew that it was over for him, that his 318 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 2: life was about to be executed, but he didn't know how, 319 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 2: so he wasn't he wasn't fighting along the way. He 320 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: came in essentially willingly. But when they put him down 321 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 2: on the examination table and a scalpel was produced, he 322 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 2: started screaming, and he said that this is this guy, 323 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 2: this doctor who performed this said quote. I cut him 324 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 2: open from chest to the stomach, and he screamed terribly, 325 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 2: and his face was all twisted in agony. He made 326 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: this unimaginable sound. He was screaming so horribly, but then 327 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: he finally stopped. This is all in a day's work 328 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 2: for the surgeons, but it really left an impression on 329 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 2: me because it was my first time that that happened. 330 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 2: A guy did that to another guy. He killed him 331 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 2: by performing surgery on him without anesthesia and opening his 332 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 2: his abdomen and removing the organs. 333 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: Yea, and this happened a lot at unit seven thirty one. 334 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 1: And we'll say that that part and like the next 335 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: probably five to seven minutes an we're gonna kind of 336 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: go through some of the worst of it. Yeah, so 337 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: feel fear to skip ahead, and then you know, we'll 338 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: talk about kind of ramifications and all that stuff. 339 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 2: But yeah, just listen for the sound of one of 340 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: us wretching while the other one's talking. You know, we're 341 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 2: still in that five to seven minute part. 342 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So I mentioned amputations and stuff like that. 343 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: Organ removal. Boy, this one is tough. They had men 344 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: that were infected with different venereal diseases like syphilis, that 345 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: were forced to rape women there to see how syphilis spreads. 346 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: There were women who were raped and impregnated that had 347 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: you know, where the men had communical diseases like you know, 348 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: make her pregnant so we can see the effects on 349 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: developing fetuses. Sometimes babies were born. Those babies were experimented 350 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: on elderly people. You know that they wanted to get 351 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: a range of not just what would this do to 352 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: a Japanese soldier, but what would these weapons do to 353 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: a range of humans, like from literal babies to elderly people. 354 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: So that's what they did. You want to take over. 355 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 2: Sure, So some of the things in addition to studying 356 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 2: what communicable diseases the effects that had on the body. 357 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 2: And that's actually the reason why they would give later 358 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 2: on why they didn't use anesthesia. Sometimes they were concerned 359 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: that the anesthesia would affect the effects and that they 360 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 2: wouldn't have like an actual picture of what was really 361 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 2: going on in the body, So they just didn't anesthetize. 362 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 2: But they studied other things too, like what happens when 363 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 2: we crush your limb? What happens if you are only 364 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: allowed to drink seawater for several days? Like just imagine 365 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 2: like completely losing all of your morals and ethics being 366 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: a doctor and saying like what can I pursue here? 367 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 2: What just crazy experiments can I come up with and 368 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 2: then actually carrying them out? And that's essentially what happened 369 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 2: at ping Von. 370 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, what if you had a blood transfusion of cow's blood? 371 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: Like what would that do to a human being or 372 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: a blood type that didn't match your own? What would 373 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: that do to somebody? There was one guy, he was 374 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: a physiologist name Yoshimura Hissato that focused on frostbite. So 375 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: they would, you know, purposely give people frostbite to see 376 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: what happened to their body and their limbs. They did 377 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: publish some of this stuff, I believe. The second in command, 378 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: his name was Masagi Kitano, said that, yeah, we published 379 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: some of this stuff, but when we published it during 380 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: the war, we said that we were using you know, 381 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: research monkeys and stuff like that, and certainly keeping all, 382 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, anything about humans a secret. 383 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not like they didn't realize that what 384 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 2: they were doing was considered unethical and immoral. 385 00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, they knew it. 386 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: That's also they kept the whole thing secret too, and 387 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: yet they did it anyway. That frostbite work is very 388 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 2: frequently cited as you know, evidence that actual scientific findings 389 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: came out of this, because apparently before the way that 390 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 2: they thought to revive a frostbit and limb was to 391 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,959 Speaker 2: rub it back into health, and they found that actually 392 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 2: makes it worse. That you want to dunk it in 393 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: water that's between one hundred and one hundred and twenty 394 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 2: two degrees farentheight, And so people are like, see, that's 395 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 2: a scientific finding. It's weird. It's almost as if they're 396 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 2: trying to excuse it in some way, shape or form 397 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 2: or say that it was in any way justified. And 398 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: from what I can tell, that's the only one that 399 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 2: anyone's actually able to point to as a scientific experiment 400 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 2: that produced actual scientific findings that we weren't aware of before. 401 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So not only were they like saying, 402 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, what kind of bomb can we make out 403 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: of poison gas or a plague culture or you know, 404 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: something that as like infected fleas, like animal fleas as 405 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: a payload that have the plague dropped on a town. 406 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: But I mentioned earlier just you know, regular weapons, guns 407 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: and knives and stuff like, let's just tie people up 408 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: at a stake and shoot them with different things from 409 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: different distances to see like how far the bullets travel, 410 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: what kind of wounds they would produce, you know, flame throwers, knives, swords, 411 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: anything they could think of to just log sort of 412 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: what the human body could take and what kind of 413 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: effect it would have. 414 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, that area where you're talking about was a second 415 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 2: kind of satellite site at a town called Hoda. It's 416 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: about ninety miles away from Harbin, which is where the 417 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: ping Fon complex was, right, and everything we're talking about 418 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: to this point has was carried out at ping Fon 419 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: and this one huge, sixty five square acre complex of 420 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: just horror, every single day horror. And imagine hundreds of 421 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 2: other people working with them, and all of them are 422 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: walking around of doing the same thing, hearing the same screams, 423 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 2: like carrying out the same atrocities. Yeah, and it's just 424 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 2: like the guy said, like it was just all in 425 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 2: a day's work. That's just what we were doing. Like 426 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 2: imagine that, like try. I can't even conceive of putting 427 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 2: myself in a place like that and just going along 428 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 2: with it, because you know that there were people who 429 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 2: were there who were worried about not going along with 430 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 2: it because they knew they would be next on the 431 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 2: slab if they spoke up or spoke out against it. 432 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 2: I just can't imagine it. When when my brain tries 433 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: to put me in that that place at that time, 434 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: it's just like stop, I don't want to go there. 435 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, did you see the zone of interests yet, No, 436 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: you should check that out. 437 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: What is it a movie? Is it a play? 438 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a movie from last year, won the 439 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: Oscar for Foreign Film and was nominated for Best Picture overall. 440 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: Jonathan later, it's basically a movie true story obviously about 441 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: the guy who led who was sort of the head 442 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: of the concentration camp. I think it was Auschwitz and 443 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: not docu. But you know, it doesn't go in the 444 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: camp at all. The whole movie is just told from 445 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: the perspective of the fact that he had his house 446 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: next door on the other side of the wall, where 447 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: he had his wife and kids in garden, and they 448 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: just they live this normal life and it's a very 449 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: The way that Glazer did it was very, very effective 450 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: and different than I've seen in any other war movie 451 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: to get across this sort of horrors without seeing any 452 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: of them happen. 453 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, that's really interesting. I've heard about that. Yeah, 454 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 2: I haven't heard anything more than what you just said. 455 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: So I'll check it out though, because I trust your recommendations. 456 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's a great film and very effective, 457 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: And you know, the reason I brought it up is 458 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: because that's sort of the same idea because I did 459 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: a little research after about this guy and he was like, 460 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, I felt like I was, you know, I 461 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: had to do this stuff or else I would be, 462 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: you know, shot for not following orders. And that's always 463 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: sort of the line that you hear. 464 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 2: Sure, no, for sure, especially further down the pecking order. 465 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 466 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: The thing is is there were very very clearly people 467 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 2: who were there who were totally into this and were 468 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: totally fine with it all in a day's work. Yeah, 469 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 2: it's just what they did. Yeah, But I guarantee there 470 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 2: were people who were there just crumbling inside every day. 471 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe there weren't. Maybe you couldn't possibly 472 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 2: keep quiet in a place like that, who knows. But 473 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 2: there were hundreds of people, like you said, from all 474 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 2: different fields and professions that were coming together to work 475 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 2: to experiment on unwilling humans at ping Fon. And that 476 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: was just ping Fon because what we said earlier was 477 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 2: that their ultimate goal was to create biological weapons. Yeah, 478 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 2: and you can sit there and come up with a 479 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 2: trillion microorganisms every few days, all like, all year long, 480 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 2: and it doesn't amount to anything if you can't infect 481 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: your enemy with them. If you wanted to carry a 482 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 2: biological warfare program, I should say. And so one of 483 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 2: the other things that they experimented on was how to deliver, 484 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 2: like you said, payloads of plague infected fleas or cholera 485 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 2: into local wells, and they did it sometimes successfully. And 486 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: I think the number for the people who died just 487 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 2: at Pingfon was three thousand. That's the number that's generally cited. 488 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 2: And they had one hundred percent mortality rate among prisoners. 489 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 2: There no one survived Pingfon. Not a single person survived 490 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 2: ping Fon. If you went in there as a prisoner, 491 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 2: you died just at ping Fon. That was three thousand. 492 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: When it goes to the actual experiments that they carried 493 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: out trying to deliver biological weapons in Manchuria, it expands, 494 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: by some estimates into the hundreds of thousands of deaths. 495 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And we should point out too when you 496 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: say that there were no survivors of ping Fan when 497 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: they closed down, and you know, we're skipping towards the end, 498 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: but when they did shut it down, whoever was still living, 499 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: they just murdered straight up to cover up any sign 500 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: of evidence, and then just dynamited the place beyond recognition. 501 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they destroyed all the records and then 502 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 2: all of the people there took a last order from 503 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: General Ishi that was never talk about this and never 504 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 2: implicate anyone that's ever worked here. They basically took a 505 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: vow of silence about it. 506 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. So you mentioned, you know, using actual biological weapons 507 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: that was mainly against Chinese civilians, and this is some 508 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: of the stuff that you know, they had sort of 509 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: considered when they dropped like cotton or wheat or rice 510 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: infested with disease carrying fleas on different Chinese cities, and 511 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: they testified in court later on civilians did about like 512 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: what happened to their community communities, these illnesses that spread 513 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: through there. It's just it's hard to fathom that this 514 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: was going on and largely gotten away with, you know. 515 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there were a couple more that I found, Chuck, 516 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 2: that I were just reprehensible. They would infect dogs with cholera, 517 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 2: I believe, and release them into villages and collar outbreaks 518 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: would start. They gave local children chocolate lace with salmonella. 519 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: The one thing that was super effective they found was 520 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 2: mixing wheat grain with plague infested fleas or infected fleas 521 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 2: and dropping it from airplanes and then the villagers would 522 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: feed the grain to their chickens and plague outbreak would 523 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 2: start and again. Like over time, at least tens of 524 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 2: thousands of people in Manchuria died from these plague and 525 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 2: collar outbreaks. Colera is no oh joke. Apparently there was 526 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: a researcher who was a pathologist at Unit seven thirty 527 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: one who boasted that they produced enough calera to kill 528 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: every single person in the world. And they didn't succeed 529 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 2: in that, thankfully, but they definitely killed a significant number 530 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 2: of people in Manchuria with things like cholera and the 531 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: plague from just trying to figure out how to get 532 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 2: that to those people. Fortunately, that was something they really 533 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 2: failed at. They never really figured it out. 534 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, mainly we've been talking about like people 535 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: that they arrested and you know, practice on or when 536 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: it was like you know, actual biological weapons, it was 537 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: on civilians, but they also did this on prisoners of 538 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: war in different places outside of Unit seven thirty one, 539 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: specifically Singapore and the Philippines. You mentioned US prisoners of 540 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: war early on. There was one documented case, at least 541 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: one documented case in May of nineteen forty five when 542 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: there was a down US plane where they captured eight 543 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: airmen and in May of nineteen forty five, they were 544 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: basically medically tortured. There was one medical student later on 545 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: that said, you know what was going on was just 546 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: torture at this point, there was no scientific value happening. 547 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that wasn't even Unit seven thirty one. That's 548 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 2: how badly like this whole German infected Japanese military. Essentially, 549 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 2: the military is like, hey, we got these POWs. We 550 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: want to we want to do a number on them. 551 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: So basically just operate on them until they're dead. And 552 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 2: that's what it would be dressed up as is like 553 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: practice surgeries. Like I want to learn how to remove 554 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 2: an arm, so that's what they would practice on. Or 555 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 2: I want to learn how to remove an appendix, so 556 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to practice that, and like eventually the patient 557 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 2: would just die because they didn't have enough organs left 558 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 2: to sustain themselves, or they lost so much blood that 559 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: they died, but they died from surgery. That was how 560 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: they died. 561 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: Well, and if they happened to live through this, they 562 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: would strangle them till they died. 563 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. I heard one other thing it's kind of unrelated 564 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 2: to this, but it's just stuck out to me, and 565 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 2: it's kind of haunted me actually, that there was a 566 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: group of POWs, American POWs that were being held in Japan, 567 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 2: and hours after the surrender had taken place and where 568 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 2: it had spread that Japan surrendered. Rather than release these POWs, 569 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: this group of Japanese soldiers took them to this hillside 570 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 2: and decapitated them, killed them, just completely wasted their lives 571 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 2: for nothing after a surrender. Somehow, it's bad enough to 572 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: do that in the context of war, but within hours 573 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 2: of surrendering, it makes it exponentially worse. It's way worse 574 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 2: than even if that happened five years later, Like they 575 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 2: just held them for five years and then killed them 576 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 2: somehow within hours of surrendering. It just makes it worse 577 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 2: to me. And I can't really get that one out 578 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 2: of my head, so I wanted to make sure it 579 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 2: was in everybody else's head, I guess. 580 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: I guess you want to think that after something as 581 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: horrific of a war has ended, then everyone just wants 582 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: to go home and have it be over, you know, 583 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,919 Speaker 1: and that you know clearly isn't always the case. 584 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 2: Well, I remember also just kind of tied into it. 585 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 2: The Nazis did that too, Like the truest believers would 586 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 2: just walk around executing people who, like at the end 587 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 2: of the war, like they knew, like Hitler was dead 588 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 2: and the war was over, but they were executing people 589 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 2: who were like trying to go home or running away 590 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 2: or whatever. Just a complete waste of life. Yeah, yeah, 591 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 2: I don't really have anything else to add to that. 592 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 2: Maybe we'll edit that part out, but it just has 593 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: stuck with me. 594 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, we'll take our last break, and we're 595 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: going to come back and finish up with the investigations 596 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: and kind of what happened afterward, and prepared to be 597 00:34:51,480 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: unsatisfied right after this. All right, we are back. We promised, 598 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: talked of investigation and you know kind of what happened afterward, 599 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: it you know, became pretty clear that the war was ending. 600 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: So general is she e like you said earlier, said, 601 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, no one can ever speak of this. Beginning 602 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: on August ninth, they started destroying everything, started blowing that 603 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: place up, killed everyone else who was there, which, as 604 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: we'll see is you know, one reason they got away 605 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: with some of these atrocities is because there were no 606 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: surviving people to testify. So the US started investigating this 607 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: at a place called Camp Dietrich in Maryland. It was 608 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: an army base, a pretty new one, and when they 609 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: started questioning, they kind of realized what was going on. 610 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,399 Speaker 1: And Japan said, you know, the Cold War is sort 611 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: of taking hold now, and you know, we're really afraid 612 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: that some of this stuff might get into the hands 613 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: of the Soviets. So America made a decision to rather 614 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: than pursue prosecution, was like, hey, let's work with them, 615 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: just to get as much much data and information as 616 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: we can from them that is useful to us, and 617 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,919 Speaker 1: that in itself is a pretty horrific thing. 618 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, we actually paid them. We paid them, We paid 619 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 2: the unit seven thirty one scientists like, general, is she 620 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 2: money to work with us? And it's weird. There's like 621 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 2: a lot of papers. I read one from the Cambridge 622 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 2: Quarterly of Healthcare Ethics in twenty fourteen that compared like 623 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 2: the two prongs that were taken like two different, two 624 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 2: different approaches, one toward the Nazis and their medical atrocities, 625 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 2: one toward the Japanese and their medical atrocities. And there 626 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 2: was one guy in particular named John W. Thompson, who 627 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,879 Speaker 2: was Canadian who really led the charge to prosecute the 628 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 2: Nazi doctors who carried out these horrible experimentations as war criminals. 629 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 2: There wasn't a guy like that dealing with the Japanese 630 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 2: in the tribunal for war crimes in the Far East, 631 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 2: and so the US military and intelligence was able to 632 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 2: keep a lid on the whole thing. The Russians were 633 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 2: talking about it because their people had been killed, the 634 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 2: Chinese were certainly talking about it because their people had 635 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 2: been killed, And people as high up as Douglas MacArthur 636 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: were publicly saying this is communist propaganda, This isn't true, 637 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 2: knowing full well it was true, because he was collaborating 638 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 2: and the people under him were collaborating with the very 639 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 2: people who had performed these atrocities in order to get 640 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 2: their medical data. We paid them for it, and we 641 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 2: gave them immunity. Some of them apparently even visited Fort 642 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 2: Dietrich to help with America's own biological warfare program that 643 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 2: we essentially lifted from the Japanese after World War Two. 644 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: That's what happened, yeah, I mean, that is that's blood 645 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: on the hands of the United States because what they're 646 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: basically saying, they're basically you know, they wouldn't outright say that, 647 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: but they're justifying these experiments by saying that the data 648 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: was useful. 649 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they said that Americans couldn't possibly ever get 650 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 2: data like this because we have scruples, but apparently the 651 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 2: Japanese don't, so we'll just take their data because they 652 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 2: don't have scruples. But that means that by proxy, you 653 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 2: don't have scruples if you're willing to use this, And 654 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 2: that's what happened with the Nazi stuff like that guy 655 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 2: John W. Thompson wanted to make an example out of 656 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 2: those Nazi doctors, like attention all scientists everywhere in the world. 657 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 2: Even the cover of World War two can't save you 658 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 2: like you like you were going to be hung if 659 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 2: we ever catch any of you doing something like this, hanged. 660 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 2: I guess that that message wasn't given to the Japanese doctors, 661 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 2: and in fact, because a lid was kept so tightly 662 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 2: on what had happened and was just relegated to rumors 663 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 2: as far as America and Japan was concerned, they were 664 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 2: allowed to re enter Japanese society and actually become fairly 665 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 2: prominent and celebrated in their fields in a lot of cases. 666 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, there were some tribunals from over the course 667 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: of a couple of years from forty six to forty eight. 668 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: Other countries were involved, including China and the Soviet Union, 669 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,879 Speaker 1: but they did not talk about Unit seven thirty one. 670 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,479 Speaker 1: There was a separate tribunal in Yokohama in nineteen forty 671 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: eight that convicted twenty three military figures, some medical personnel 672 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: that were in the Kyushu University torture, and these were 673 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: specifically of uspows only, and they got death or life sentences, 674 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: but those sentences were dropped or commuted, I guess because 675 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: the US was trying to build a friend in Japan 676 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: at that point and an ally at the start of 677 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: the Korean War, and then the Soviet you know, eventually 678 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine said you know, we have to 679 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: expose some of this. So they put and this is 680 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: by themselves, they put twelve members of Unit seven thirty 681 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 1: one on trial and you know, accusing them of everything 682 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 1: that they did, and this is where a lot of 683 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: like information was brought out. They were sentenced between two 684 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: to twenty five years in prison, and the US, because 685 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,720 Speaker 1: we were now in a Cold war with Russia, said 686 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,439 Speaker 1: that this is propaganda. 687 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. So this trial where essentially all of the information, 688 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 2: the fact factual information we had for decades about what 689 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 2: Unit seven thirty one did came out of this trial. 690 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,919 Speaker 2: But it was just in the USSR. And it wasn't 691 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 2: until nineteen eighty two that a journalist named John W. 692 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,720 Speaker 2: Powell got his hands on it and published an article 693 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 2: on what Unit seven thirty one had done during the 694 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 2: war and the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists journal And it 695 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 2: was through those court transcripts, so they came back to 696 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 2: haunt them thirty years later, and that's when it really 697 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 2: became started to become knowledge among historians, the military, the 698 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 2: government in the West, in the United States, and among 699 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 2: allies that the Japanese had actually done these things that 700 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,760 Speaker 2: they'd long been accused of by the Soviets and Chinese, 701 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 2: and here was evidence of it by the testimony by 702 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 2: the very people who were there, who'd been captured by 703 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:24,720 Speaker 2: the Soviets. 704 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, most of this stuff has come out 705 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: at an alarmingly slow rate, and over the course of decades, 706 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: I believe in nineteen eighty two, there was a museum 707 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: in China at that ping Fan site obviously that China established, 708 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: But it took all the way until nineteen eighty eight, 709 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 1: you know, forty plus years after the war ended, that 710 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: the Japanese government finally admitted that it even happened. But 711 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 1: they still wouldn't release any information, like most of the 712 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: stuff that we know. Like you said, if we had 713 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: done this episode, you know, at the beginning of our run, 714 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: and we probably wouldn't have known what we know now 715 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: because a lot of it came out in the nineties, 716 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,439 Speaker 1: the early two thousands. Well I guess by that time 717 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: we were around. Yeah, but that's neither here nor there. 718 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: The point is, it took a long time for this 719 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: stuff to come out, and you know, we can't go 720 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: over everyone. You did mention that, you know, many of 721 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: them went on to have just great lives and careers, 722 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,760 Speaker 1: but we should highlight a few of these. The second 723 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: in command that I mentioned earlier, Masaji Kaitano. He co 724 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: founded a green Cross, a very large Japanese pharmaceutical company, 725 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: with two other colleagues from Unit seven thirty one. So 726 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: they did well, they. 727 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 2: Did, and green Cross went on to infect eighteen hundred 728 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 2: people with hemophilia with HIV because they were selling them 729 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 2: unsterilized blood clotting agents in the nineties. 730 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was what about is she? 731 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 2: She became one of the most celebrated doctors in all 732 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 2: of Japan. He supposedly, according to one British historian named 733 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 2: Richard Drayton, went to Fort Dietrich to advise the US 734 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 2: on the bioweapons program. There. He died in nineteen fifty 735 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 2: nine at age sixty seven, never having even been publicly 736 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 2: accused of what he had done in Japanese society. He 737 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 2: was just a celebrated doctor by that point when he died. 738 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, the guy hasato that the guy who led those 739 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 1: frostbited experiments. He became president of the Kyoto Prefectural University 740 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: of Medicine. 741 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 2: This one gets me though, This last one. You gotta 742 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:40,240 Speaker 2: say that one. 743 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, the communicable disease researcher Amatani Shogo, he won the 744 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: Asahi Prize for outstanding contributions to the field of communicable 745 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: disease research. And part of that was some of the 746 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: stuff that he got from Unit seven thirty one. 747 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I looked all over like, hey, how did 748 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 2: he disguise that or how did the Asahi Prize people 749 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 2: miss that? I didn't see anything like that. Apparently his 750 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 2: research came directly from medical experiments on unwilling participants got 751 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 2: him the Asahi Prize. Yeah, that's insane, man. 752 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: Yep. 753 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,240 Speaker 2: So there's no clear evidence that the United States gained 754 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 2: much of anything from the deal it made with the 755 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 2: Unit seven thirty one leaders for all of their research. 756 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 2: Other people say, no, actually it's not true at all. 757 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 2: And in fact, the Chinese accused the US of using 758 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 2: the same kind of germs for germ warfare in Korea, 759 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 2: and the US of course it's like, no, he didn't. 760 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 2: But Fort Dietrich is well known as being like a 761 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 2: biological research facility. They're like, it's not biological warfare. We're 762 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,120 Speaker 2: just using gain of function research to see what happens 763 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 2: when we make this virus do this, you know, not 764 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 2: for biological warfare. It's very bizarre, but it exists. It's 765 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 2: definitely there, and it's a strange place. Apparently that's where 766 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,399 Speaker 2: a lot of MK ultra experiments were carried out. 767 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, wouldn't that where the men stared at goats? 768 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 2: I think so? Yeah, I mean that was definitely about that, 769 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,359 Speaker 2: but I don't remember if that was at said at 770 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 2: Fort Tetrick or not. I got a funny story about that. 771 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:17,880 Speaker 2: I got to tell you sometimes. 772 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: Oh well, how about now we could use it. 773 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 2: No, I can't really tell you here on the podcast. 774 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: Ah, copy of that, all right? 775 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 2: And then just one more thing, Chuck, This has not 776 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,840 Speaker 2: revelations that Unit seven thirty one carried out these experiences 777 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 2: has not exactly been like embraced in Japanese society, right. 778 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 1: Like, there's a real divide on whether to teach this 779 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: horrific but very true history of their own country because 780 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: of the obvious sort of effects that this could have 781 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: on children and how they feel about their country. 782 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen that they're worried that they might make 783 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,879 Speaker 2: Japanese children ashamed of their country. So you can't teach 784 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 2: them that kind of stuff. So that's it. That's the 785 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 2: last thing I've got. All Right, you got anything else? 786 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: I got nothing else. I'm glad that one's over. 787 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 2: Same here, Thanks a lot, Amy, Yeah, thanks Amy. If 788 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 2: you want to know more about you in seven point 789 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 2: thirty one, Okay, there's plenty of stuff you can read 790 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,759 Speaker 2: on the internet. And since I said that it's time 791 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 2: for listener mail. 792 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a little further explanation about backdraft from 793 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: our Arts and Investigation EP. Hey guys, it's a fan 794 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: of your work. I was excited to listen to the 795 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,680 Speaker 1: episode on an Arson Investigation because I'm a firefighter and 796 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: I've learned about some of what you guys covered and 797 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 1: got some cool new information from you. I want to 798 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,879 Speaker 1: let you know that you were so close on backdraft, 799 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,919 Speaker 1: but just a little bit off. The way backdraft works 800 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 1: is when you have a working fire that does not 801 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: have access to fresh oxygen. At a certain point, the 802 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: fire will have consumed all of the oxygen in a 803 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,319 Speaker 1: space and basically begin to smolder, so it will create 804 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 1: a turbulent smoke in a very high and very high temperatures, 805 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: but not actual flames. So the backdraft occurs when oxygen 806 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: is suddenly added to the situation, if I say, opening 807 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 1: a door or a window. The sudden addition of oxygen 808 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: to the superheated gases can create a pretty violent explosion, 809 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,359 Speaker 1: and that explosion itself is the backdraft. I figured I've 810 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:18,800 Speaker 1: learned so much from you guys, I thought it'd be 811 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,400 Speaker 1: cool to share some info back Hope this receives you 812 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: well and that is from Lindsey. 813 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,399 Speaker 2: Thanks Lindsay. That was very cool. Apparently the only way 814 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 2: to fight a backdraft is to love it too. I'll 815 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:30,720 Speaker 2: let that part out, Linda. 816 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,320 Speaker 1: That's right, you got to joke in there. Very nice. 817 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 2: If you want to get in touch with us like 818 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,400 Speaker 2: Lindsay did and let us know something cool that we 819 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,480 Speaker 2: didn't know, you can do it. Send it via email 820 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 2: to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 821 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,080 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 822 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,319 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 823 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.