1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: As a musician. Tour is my favorite and least favorite 2 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: part of the job. You've got long drives, gas station sandwiches, 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: shared hotel bathrooms, but on the good nights you also 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: get them Hundreds, maybe even thousands of people collected into 5 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: one room feeling the same way at the same time. 6 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: Sometimes you feel like an entertainer, but sometimes it feels 7 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: like a rally, or like you're at church. I'm not 8 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: a religious or a spiritual person, but that simultaneity of 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: shared experience, it's a communion. Everybody lit up by the 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: music and by one another. My name is Dessa. The 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: name of the podcast you're attending is deeply human, and 12 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: today we're asking why did crowds move you? Let the 13 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: show begin. The first act on the bill is a 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: master of crowd control and not too modest to tell 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: you all about it. Hi, my name is cybers Sounds. 16 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: I'm very famous in New York. Cifa is a live 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: DJ in a stand up comic and it's like cent 18 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: in New York. Listen. I'm an expert name dropper. My 19 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: first big gig ever was with Little Kimp. I worked 20 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: with everybody uh DJ Wise ninety seven, Wise jay z 21 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: I broke Rihanna, I broke Rick Ross, very instrumental and breaking. 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: Sean Paul Cipher's Instagram page is chock full of vintage 23 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: picks of him cheessing with Kanye and Dave Chappelle, t 24 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: I and Snoop Dogg. He's been in the game a 25 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: long time. When you perform as a DJ live, can 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: you explain what crowd control is? I have this knack 27 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: to read the crowd. It's definitely my gift. I go 28 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: into like this trance where I see the crowd as 29 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: like colors and pockets of movement, and I'll be DJ 30 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: for a thousand people and I'll look over to the 31 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: left and I'll see like a group of twenty not 32 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: really dancing for whatever reason, and my my honing skills 33 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: tune into that part because that twenty people not dancing 34 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: could turn into a virus and spread and make the 35 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: crowd not you know, they could make the whole party flop. 36 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: So when you talk about room reading, you know, and 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: so you're looking for motion, can you give me some 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: of the other indicators, Like, um, if you see blue faces, 39 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: that means people are looking at their screens, you know 40 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: what I mean, Which means that they're maybe not attending 41 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: to the show. What else are you looking for besides movement? 42 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: This movement? There's body language, there's facial expression. There's a 43 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: thing where like the quick look at the booth. So 44 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: you're playing a couple of songs and then you play 45 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: a song that people don't like, and you will see 46 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: some girls that quickly look at the booth like what 47 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: do you? What is this? You know what I mean? 48 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: And that hurts. But Sifa is a consummate pro who 49 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: knows exactly what to spin to start the party. He 50 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: can calculate the average age of the crowd and then 51 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: consult the spreadsheet in his head of the song that 52 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: would have been chart top during their high school years. 53 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: Nostalgia tracks are strong medicine, and he gets on the 54 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: mic himself to lure the first bodies to the dance floor. 55 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: There's usually like some girls that are ready to party 56 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: and they're like starting to move early, and I and 57 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: I even say, hey, you are his shirt, like I 58 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: got you, you know what I mean, I feel your vibe. 59 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: I'm doing this for you. And then they feel special 60 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: and they start opening up and I'm like, tell your 61 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: friends to come out, and they come on come out, 62 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: you know, And they come out and they start there, 63 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: and then then a group of other people are like, yo, 64 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: don't let them have all the fun, and the other 65 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: people start coming. You'll see it, like the floor start 66 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: to get filled up. As a comic, Piper's home base 67 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: is at the Comedy Seller in Manhattan. It's a world 68 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: famous joint, this little dim basement room that does three 69 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: or four shows a night. Tickets are cheap, beers are expensive, 70 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: and people line up down the block to get in. 71 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: Our guys, Sip usually plays the role of the host, 72 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: reading the audience and doing little bits in between sets. 73 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: So I'm the first guy, you see, and I have 74 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: ten minutes to get that crowd ready for the show. Comedians, 75 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: as soon as they walk in the building, the first 76 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: question is like, how's the crowd? How's the crowd? Always, 77 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, there's a feeling that's gestalt bigger than the 78 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: individual people at individual tables, and Cypher's job is to 79 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: prime the crowd. When he delivers, these people perfectly prepared 80 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: to be entertained. Comics know it and appreciate it, and 81 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: they'll give me a look like, oh this is this. 82 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: You got this crowd right? So what makes a good 83 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: crowd good? Let's pass the mic to Ann Templeton, a 84 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: lecturer and social psychology at the University of Edinburgh in 85 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: the UK. She researches what she calls a psychological crowd, 86 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: a massive people who have more in common than just 87 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: sharing the same physical space. So that is where you 88 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: have a crowd of people who have a sense of 89 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: connection to each other. They feel like the part of 90 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: the same group, like a concert where everybody knows all 91 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: the words, or protest where everyone is marching for the 92 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: same cause. We're more likely to provide help to people 93 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: we see as being in the same group as as 94 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: we feel closer to them. Are more likely to share resources, 95 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: whether that's water or bottle of alcohol or food with 96 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: people who are in our group. Multiple psychological crowds can 97 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: often exist within a single physical one. I think of 98 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: a sports game where some sections are racking the home 99 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: team jerseys and others are rooting for the visitors. And 100 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: says that feeling connected to the people in a psychological 101 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: crowd changes our behavior, can even change the way we 102 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: Locomo I did a series of study start my PhD. 103 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: We essentially found that when people are in a psychological 104 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: crowd compared to physical crowd, the state in closer proximity 105 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: with one another and larger subgroups within the crowd. So 106 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: what seems to be happening is that group members or 107 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: try to stay together with other group members, and they'll 108 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: even reduce their speed and kind of walk further in 109 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: order to stay together. To research really vast assemblies of people, 110 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: and has studied the Hajj, the trip to Mecca, the 111 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: practicing Muslims are expected to make at least once in 112 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: their lives. The hash is one of the most densely 113 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: populated crowds I've ever seen pilgrims. They're really kind of 114 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,679 Speaker 1: packed together, and they can be up to twelve people 115 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: per square meter, which is so dense that you're actually 116 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: like lifted up by the crowd. They found that the 117 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: more people felt like they were part of a group, 118 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: the safer they felt in the crowd, and that actually 119 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: increased in more dense areas. For people who had lower 120 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: identification with the crowds, so who didn't feel as much 121 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: part of the group with the others, we see the 122 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: opposite effect. So the more dense area was, the less 123 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: safe they actually felt. You know what, The out stands 124 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: for you know what the norms are, what the kind 125 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: of values are of that crowd, and you act within them. 126 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: So when people are with fellow group members, they feel 127 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: more empowered to act certain waysted Wi anyway, So what 128 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: does that mean exactly? What does it look like to 129 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: be empowered to do something bold? Electrified by the crowd. 130 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: Let's queue up our next cameo, Hey, I'm Gonzia and 131 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: I make stuff, and I make what some people referred 132 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: to as art. Ganzer is a street artist who grew 133 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: up in Cairo, Egypt. He does large scale murals, sometimes 134 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: several stories high, and most of it is overtly political. 135 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: He gained international attention during the Arab Spring in two 136 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: thousand eleven. Ganzer was at a friend's house one day 137 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: when his Twitter feed blew up with news of a 138 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: protest on the streets, and one post in particular grabbed 139 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: his attention. A friend was live broadcasting video from what 140 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: looked like a very big march headed towards the rear square. 141 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: I just left it out to see what was up, 142 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: and I just so happened to arrive at exactly that 143 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: that moment when kind of that big march, those protesters 144 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: arrived to the square, and the square was really blocked 145 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: off by so much right please. The square was lined 146 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: with people watching, waiting to find out what would happen 147 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: when such a surge of marchers met the police lines. 148 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,679 Speaker 1: A lot of people weren't intending on participating in protest, 149 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: myself included. And then when the protesters did in fact 150 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: arrive without kind of words being exchanged or anything, is 151 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: just like, okay, they want to make it through, and 152 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: so they just kept on marching. And then the police 153 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: of their reaction was to use their sticks and batons 154 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: and whatever to hit the protesters. And seeing that, witnessing 155 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: that so so up close, just prompted people to kind 156 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: of go crazy, like this is unacceptable. That's when the 157 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: crowd got big. There was a billboard in the middle 158 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: of the Tiger Square that advertised the main political part 159 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: Preaty that has been in power for a long time, 160 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: or wasn't power up until that point, which is Mubarak's 161 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: U political party in two thousand eleven, who's named Mubarak 162 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: had been in power for thirty years, heading a regime 163 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: that many Egyptians were decrying as corrupt and repressive. I 164 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: felt like, okay, so eventually they're going to crack down 165 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: on this protest and there will be no sign of it, 166 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: you know. So I had a spray paint in my backpack. 167 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: I climbed the billboard and spray painted on the back 168 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: of it, basically what what everyone was chanting, which was 169 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: down with mbaruk. When they saw me climbed the billboard, 170 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: they started like shouting at me, telling me like to 171 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: come down, and there was definitely the sense of everyone 172 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: wanted it was very very keen on the protest being peaceful. 173 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: So people started chatting at me and I just sort 174 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: of gestured with my hands tell everyone to calm down. 175 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: It's not what you think. And then I pulled out 176 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: the spray paint from the backpack and then as soon 177 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: as they saw that then they kind of started like 178 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: encouraged me, like oh okay, yeah, spray something. And before 179 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: I had even completed the sentence, everyone started to really 180 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: cheer quite loudly on clap and you could hear it 181 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: going throughout the square. Do you think that this is 182 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: something that you would have ever done if you weren't 183 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: in a crowd. No, it was a crowd based right, 184 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: It's like myself being moved by the crowd and and 185 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: literally my arms just being told to write what they 186 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: were saying. You know what I mean. That's like would 187 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: never have happened without being in that crowd, for sure. 188 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: The voices embodies around him gave Ganzier the nerve to 189 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: act on a brave impulse. He'd been critical of the 190 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: government before, but in that square, in that moment, he 191 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: became the mouthpiece of the crowd in a way that 192 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: he had never previously anticipated or experienced. He had this 193 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: feeling of total connection, and other people in the crowd 194 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: seemed to feel it too. People were banding together, helping 195 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: one another. Police forces, in an attempt to dissolve the assembly, 196 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: fired tear gas into the crowd. Ginzer had never seen 197 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: tear gas before, and after the boom of the shot, 198 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: he says, there was a moment of stillness, then panic, 199 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: but momentarily the canister was flying back towards the police. 200 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: Someone must have picked it up and thrown it by hand. 201 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: It did feel quite magical in a sense. I think 202 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: there was just this feeling of complete non existence of 203 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: the ego of the self, and it was it was 204 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: really the collective us individually, like each person is different, 205 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: you know, each person has different interests, different concerns, different jobs. 206 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: But then in that moment, in that space, everyone there 207 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: was a feeling that like, none of that, none of 208 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: that is really important without dealing with this other thing 209 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 1: first for everyone, you know, and I remember just being 210 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: moved by the various actions that every one was doing. 211 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: Selflessness was really just contagious, and it was just sort 212 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: of echoing off of each and every single person in 213 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: the square in that moment. Ganzer eventually left Cairo and 214 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: moved to the US, in part because he was being 215 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: singled out by Egyptian media outlets sympathetic to the government. 216 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 1: In print, online, and on TV. The protesters at to 217 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: Rear Square were described as thugs, rioters, and outlaws. In 218 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: the press, images of big crowds are often accompanied by 219 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: messages of concern. Big congregations of people are sometimes portrayed 220 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: as fundamentally criminal or particularly susceptible to base animalistic impulses, 221 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: and Templeton are crowd expert says that there's a very 222 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: specific reason for those associations. Generally, I get the sense 223 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: that you think that crowds got a bad rap, but 224 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: like there's been a lot of heterism on crowds. Well, 225 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: do a quick walkdown history ly so one of the 226 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: original kind of crowd theorists was Gustave Lebon, and he 227 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: was advocating how terrible crowds were during the Paris community. 228 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: For those of you feeling a little rusty and nineteenth 229 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: century Parisian history, the Paris Commune was a short lived 230 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: revolutionary government led by common people. It was the product 231 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: of a working class insurrection in the city, masses of 232 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: people revolting against French federal rule. And this character, Gustave 233 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: Lebon was not a fan of democracy. He was really 234 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: promoting this idea that crowds are these irrational, spineless masses. 235 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: It just needs to be controlled by a good leader. 236 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: And says, a lot of our modern ideas about crowds 237 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: stem from Lebon's not so thinly veiled classism. He kind 238 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: of popularized this notional crowds and that persisted and persisted, 239 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: and you look at media coverage even now, you see 240 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: things like stampedes. You see about the irrational mobs and 241 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: talk about mentality, so they really do get a bad rap. 242 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: Would he still consider a group of people at the 243 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: opera a crowd. So Christ in the upper early they 244 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: were absolutely fine. But the working classes here were revolting. No, no, 245 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: they were irrational, they were mindless. Sometimes violence does erupt 246 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: within a crowd, but Ann says that the majority of 247 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: people don't exhibit disregard, let alone malice for one another, 248 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: even in desperate circumstances. If you look at the Manchester 249 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: Arena attack from the Ariana Grande concert, we saw great 250 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: examples of people going back in and helping one another. 251 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: In two thousand seventeen, a suicide bomber detonated an explosive 252 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: at a concert in Manchester, England, right after the singer 253 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: Ariana Grande finished her last song. There were over fourteen 254 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: thousand people at that show and twenty two of them 255 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: died amid the fear and the confusion right after the blast. 256 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: Crowd members were there for one another. They're performing for 257 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: us to aid to each other. They were giving emotionals, support, 258 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: they were sharing Walter all before emergency services were able 259 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: to get into the building, the cards were already performing 260 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: amazing coordination to support one another, to match up children 261 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: with their families, for parents to look after kids, and 262 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: recommends that authorities and emergency personnel work with the crowd 263 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: instead of focusing on gaining control of it. The crowd 264 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: is often pretty good at taking care of itself. Did 265 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: you know that in the UK they call an intermission 266 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: an interval? I just found out myself two countries separated 267 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: by a common language. Man, Okay, this is radio, so 268 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: we gotta be quick about this. You've got, let's say, 269 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: eight seconds to visit the bathroom, get a refreshment, and 270 00:15:48,360 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: return to your seat, and we're all settled back in fantastic. 271 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: From up here on stage, you can see little ripples 272 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: of motion moving across an audience. Having been a performer 273 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,359 Speaker 1: myself for most of my adult life, it's still fascinating 274 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: to me to watch all the varied ways that crowds move. 275 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: For example, I recently finished it tour opening for a 276 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: band called Thievery Corporation. Their stuff has big drumbeats, sitar, 277 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: kind of groovy vocals, and during our set, the motion 278 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: of their audience is so different than what I'm used 279 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: to seeing at my own gigs that at first it 280 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: was downright disorienting. Like is a hip hop artist, I'm 281 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: accustomed to staccato gestures fans with one arm up, beating 282 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: in time to the music, whereas this thievery crowd was 283 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: way way looser. After our first show together, my bandmate 284 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: Joshua described it as a kelp forest, This vast sea 285 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: of fluid, undulating bodies cipher sounds the very famous in 286 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: New York crowd whisperer sees the same thing when he's 287 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: up there in the DJ. Depending the type of music 288 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: and the type of party, you will see like like 289 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: ocean waves, Synchronized dancing or swaying is usually a great 290 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: sign for a performer, an indicator that the audience is 291 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: swept up in the same feeling. But sometimes movements sweeping 292 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: through a crowd can be dangerous. Let's welcome our next 293 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: guest to center stage. Will you introduce yourself to me 294 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: as you would have at a party? Oh? Right, at 295 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: a party, I would say, hi, a Marianna, I do physics, 296 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: and you would say, oh, physics. Oh I was so 297 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: bad in physics, buz no. But that's what everyone says 298 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: without realizing I also was very, very budding in physics. 299 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: Ariana Batanelli is an editor of the journal Communications Physics. 300 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: She's also an applied mathematician with a background in theoretical 301 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: physics and a passion for crowd movement and behavior. Under 302 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: certain conditions, the physical forces are crowd movement can overwhelm 303 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: the people in it. So if you have a little 304 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: bit of space in front of you and you all 305 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: want to get to the festivals as soon as possible, 306 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: as long as someone takes some little step forward, you 307 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: will take another step forward. And so at some point 308 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: the pressure builds up from the back to the front, 309 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: and in the front you see people basically start to 310 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: bobbling left and right. So there starts being some sort 311 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: of waves into the crowd where people can't really do 312 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,959 Speaker 1: anything and being transport by the wave. And then in 313 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: that condition it can happen that like maybe two waves 314 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: crush or you get smashed into a wall and something 315 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: like that. And yeah, so that's pretty ugly. Okay, So 316 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: you focused a lot on crowd density and like high 317 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: density crowds, how many people and how tightly packed you 318 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: have to be to be identity. So there is six 319 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: seven people per square meters, six or seven people for 320 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: square met Okay, So for those of us who don't 321 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: think in meters, how far away am I from the 322 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: other people? Here's super squeezed by these people, Like you 323 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to fit seven person in a square 324 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: meter unless you have a box around the square meter, 325 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: like I'm tight, Like I can smell other people's wine 326 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: and stuff, like I'm I'm being touched. My body is touched. 327 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: H Yeah, definitely, the forces at play in these high 328 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: density crowds can get intense enough to seriously hurt people. 329 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: The disaster at the Astro World Festival in Houston, Texas 330 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: was a tragic case. And point and Templeton you might remember, 331 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: mentioned that at the Hajje, densities can reach a dozen 332 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 1: people per square meter. At the two fifteen pilgrimage, more 333 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: than two thousand people were killed in what's often called 334 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: a crowd crush. A crowd crush is basically when the 335 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: density it's so high that people can't move freely anymore. 336 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: Like sometimes those pressures are so high that people basically well, 337 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: they are compressed by the crowd until near lungs can't 338 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,959 Speaker 1: expand anymore and you and you choke to death in 339 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: the middle of the crowd. It's it's quite horrible. Even 340 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: if nobody is pushing, nobody's trying to harm anybody. The 341 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: pressure can build. It's just a byproduct of the crowd 342 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: itself compressed way, way too tightly. The point is one 343 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: it's to dents. It's too late. These super tightly packed 344 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 1: crowds also increase risk of trampling. To try to avoid 345 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: these dangers, people like Ariana study the mechanics of dense crowds, 346 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: striving to understand the precise manner in which human bodies 347 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: crammed together. As it turns out, some of the answers 348 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: to their questions might be found in green silos. Let 349 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: me explain, Farmers, after harvesting their grain, store it in silos. 350 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: Retrieving this grain later, however, sometimes proves hazardous. Like if 351 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: you open the silo from the bottom trying to take 352 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: out those grains, then you have those like large scale reactions. 353 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: The grain and the silos can shift, compact and create 354 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: pressure waves that get crazy intense, and it can create 355 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: so much pressure that it basically breaks. The silo blows 356 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: my mind. I had no idea. So in some way, 357 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: it's like filling a stadium with people was compared to 358 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: filling a silo with grain. To make sure that we 359 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: don't smash the people or explode the silo A Researchers 360 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: have also discovered some useful mathematical parallels in studying coffee beans. 361 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: For example, in answering questions about evacuation planning, what is 362 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: the optimal size of a door in order for the 363 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: evacuation to be fast as possible, because like as with 364 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: coffee beans, like they can clog and people can clog. 365 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: And they found out that you can have an ob 366 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: stockhold if you put an obstacle in the right place 367 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: in front of the door. Actually, people have our force 368 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: to alternate. Counterintuitively, placing a carefully designed impediment in the 369 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: path of a crowd can keep foot traffic flowing, preventing 370 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 1: people from clogging exits. And even if you're not designing 371 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: evacuation routes, here's a bit of news you can use 372 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: from a high density crowd researcher. Think about how difficult 373 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: it can be to move through a pack concert, trying 374 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: to get out of the throng in the center of 375 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: the floor to go to the bathroom or make your 376 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: way to coat check. It involves a lot of mumbled apologies, 377 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: the risk of slashing beer on somebody's new kicks, and 378 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: a lot of low key body checking. But there is 379 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: a solution. If everyone is facing the stage, for example, 380 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: and you want to get out, you want to move 381 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: diagonally towards the stage to extract yourself from the crowd, 382 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: make your way towards one of the sidewalls while also 383 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: moving forward towards the stage a bit boom. First in 384 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: line at the restaurant. Look at you, Look at you. 385 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: Even though much of Ariana's research has focused on crowd 386 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: worst case scenarios, let the record show she's not always 387 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: all serious. I've been in a few more spits. Yeah, okay. 388 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: She also talks real casually about some concert phenomenon called 389 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: the Wall of Death. Like it's people running around because 390 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: at some point they decide that it's cool to run around, 391 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: or the wall of death. You ever seen any Excuse me, 392 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,239 Speaker 1: I have no idea what you're talking about. At some 393 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: point someone screams the world death or whatever, and the 394 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: crowd separates into hols, and it's like then it becomes 395 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: like a medieval movie where they start running towards each 396 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: other and then they crash in the middle, like just smashing, 397 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: like two walls smashing through. Does everybody sorry, producers in 398 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 1: the room, do you guys know what this is. Everybody 399 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: knows what this is. I am not metal enough to 400 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: have witnessed a wall of death, but I do absolutely 401 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: know what it feels like to be moved by something 402 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: not quite tangible that circulates in a crowded room. It's 403 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: a mood, it's a buzz. It's like everyone there is 404 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: plugged into some shared circuit. Take comedy shows, for instance, 405 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: like the one Cipher hosts. Laughter is contagious. It's a 406 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: feeling that if the comedians good or the jokes are good, 407 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: they shot something into the air and everyone felt it 408 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: at the exact same time. It had an involuntary response. 409 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: It's like a crowd has emergent properties of its own. 410 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: There's a positive feedback loop as feelings and movements spread 411 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: and get amplified, like when a good DJ is spinning. 412 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: The audience performs for itself. The dancers work it, Strangers 413 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: make way for one another, mouth the words at each other. 414 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: It's like a tiny culture develops there in that one place, 415 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: a little society that lasts for only one night. And 416 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: I love when somebody just walks in and they immediately 417 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: start dancing, like they danced their way to the dance floor. 418 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: That's how you know you're killing it, because, like, the 419 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: music is always going to be the music. But what 420 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: they're feeling when they walk in is the vibe? Is 421 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: it a collective vibe? Is it a vibe that in 422 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 1: part is generated by the crowd? Oh? Absolutely, there's no 423 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: other way to create a vibe in that environment. You know, 424 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: the music is what they're hearing, and the vibe is 425 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: what they're feeling. I've spent a considerable portion of my 426 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: life chasing that feeling, that vibe, a tour from city 427 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: to city with my band, and every night on stage, 428 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: I try to say the right thing, or sing the 429 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: right song, or lift my arm into the light. It's 430 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: just the right moment so that a room full of 431 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: strangers will feel, for a while at least united, connected 432 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: enough to let down our defenses and allow ourselves to 433 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: be moved in one another's company and buy one another's company. Okay, 434 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: to the end, you guys, A final bow from our 435 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: guests and Templeton ganzer Ariana about a Nelly and of 436 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: course cipher sounds. You got room, Idessa have been your 437 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: host this evening. What James such a smart alec in 438 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: the booth James turn the clapping back on Thank You. 439 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: Deeply Human is a BBC World Service and American public 440 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: media co production with I Heart Media, and it's hosted 441 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: by Messa. Find me online at Duessa on Instagram and 442 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: Dussa Darling on Twitter. Be at home Safe everybody caffeine, nicotine, alcohol. 443 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: Almost everyone in the world uses some sort of drug, drink, 444 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: and drugs have played a huge role not only in 445 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: our social lives, but in civic and sometimes religious life too. 446 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: Next time on deeply Human, I'm asking why do we 447 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: use intoxicans?