WEBVTT - Extreme makeover, personality edition 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:23.036 Pushkin, Hey, slight Changers, Maya Here. My new newsletter, which 0:00:23.036 --> 0:00:26.236 I'm so excited about, is out now. It's called Change 0:00:26.276 --> 0:00:29.356 with Maya Shunker. It's totally free and you can sign 0:00:29.436 --> 0:00:32.596 up at Changewmaya dot com or check out the link 0:00:32.636 --> 0:00:35.716 in our show notes. The reason I started this newsletter 0:00:35.876 --> 0:00:38.636 is that I'm so excited about building a community with 0:00:38.756 --> 0:00:41.676 all of you around how we can navigate change with 0:00:41.716 --> 0:00:46.276 more wisdom and with more hope. I'll be sharing personal updates, 0:00:46.356 --> 0:00:49.516 links to what I'm reading or watching lately, exciting new 0:00:49.596 --> 0:00:53.476 science about change, and my top takeaways for my conversations 0:00:53.476 --> 0:00:56.836 on this show, with some behind the scenes action. I 0:00:56.876 --> 0:00:58.916 hope you'll sign up and spread the word with your 0:00:58.956 --> 0:01:03.756 friends again. You can sign up at Changewithmaya dot com. Okay, now, 0:01:03.796 --> 0:01:16.316 onto the episode, there were. 0:01:16.236 --> 0:01:19.596 Kind of signs along the way that not only was 0:01:19.596 --> 0:01:22.876 I not thrilled with my personality, other people were not thrilled. 0:01:22.596 --> 0:01:23.116 With it either. 0:01:24.076 --> 0:01:28.876 Olga Hasan didn't really like herself. A self described neurotic, 0:01:28.996 --> 0:01:32.556 she tended to fixate on the negative at parties. Her 0:01:32.636 --> 0:01:35.796 go to conversation starter was everything that was wrong in 0:01:35.836 --> 0:01:39.716 her life. Olga just assumed that she'd always be this way, 0:01:40.316 --> 0:01:43.916 but then she came across research showing that personality is 0:01:43.916 --> 0:01:45.636 something you can change. 0:01:45.916 --> 0:01:49.036 And I was like, huh, that's kind of interesting, because 0:01:49.116 --> 0:01:52.756 though neuroticism was probably my biggest problem, it wasn't my 0:01:52.876 --> 0:01:56.316 only problem, and I felt like a personality overhaul was 0:01:56.996 --> 0:01:58.836 sort of an effective way to get at all of 0:01:58.876 --> 0:02:00.436 the stuff I was struggling with at the time. 0:02:04.756 --> 0:02:12.676 On Today's show Extreme Makeover Personality Edition, I'm Maya Shunker, 0:02:12.956 --> 0:02:16.396 a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a 0:02:16.436 --> 0:02:19.156 slight change of plans. I show about who we are 0:02:19.316 --> 0:02:26.516 and who we become in the face of a big change. 0:02:30.876 --> 0:02:33.996 Olga Hasan is a writer for The Atlantic, and she 0:02:34.116 --> 0:02:38.036 recently decided to tackle her biggest challenge to date. Could 0:02:38.076 --> 0:02:41.036 she fix the parts of her personality that she didn't like. 0:02:41.836 --> 0:02:45.556 She gave herself a year to find out. She chronicles 0:02:45.596 --> 0:02:49.236 this experiment in her book Me But Better, The Science 0:02:49.276 --> 0:02:53.236 and Promise of Personality Change. Olga says that from the 0:02:53.276 --> 0:02:55.996 time she was a little kid, she's known one thing 0:02:56.196 --> 0:02:56.796 to be true. 0:02:57.436 --> 0:03:00.756 I am very anxious and have always been very anxious. 0:03:01.356 --> 0:03:03.716 My parents told me that as a toddler. One of 0:03:03.716 --> 0:03:06.716 my first full phrases that I said was I'm not 0:03:06.756 --> 0:03:07.396 going to like it. 0:03:07.436 --> 0:03:11.556 I'm going to be uncomfortable. Oh about okay, new situations. 0:03:12.596 --> 0:03:15.916 What a mature, precocious toddler. You have all the words 0:03:15.956 --> 0:03:17.996 you needed to describe that. I'm impressed. 0:03:18.716 --> 0:03:21.436 I was mature and precocious, but I was very very anxious. 0:03:21.476 --> 0:03:25.116 I did not like new experiences and new things. That 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:28.876 was a problem because when I was three, we immigrated 0:03:28.916 --> 0:03:31.716 from the USSR, which is a new experience and a 0:03:31.756 --> 0:03:35.036 new thing, and I think I just never really got 0:03:35.036 --> 0:03:38.436 over my anxiety, my kind of like wariness of new 0:03:38.516 --> 0:03:41.876 things and new people. I was never really a joiner, 0:03:42.276 --> 0:03:44.236 being an immigrant kid. I was always sort of like, 0:03:45.276 --> 0:03:47.916 are other people judging me? You know? Am I sticking 0:03:47.916 --> 0:03:50.236 out from everyone else? And so because of that, I 0:03:50.316 --> 0:03:53.436 think I always kind of retreated from not just big 0:03:53.476 --> 0:03:55.516 groups of people, but just sort of people in general. 0:03:55.636 --> 0:03:58.596 Like I kind of kept everyone at arm's length. So 0:03:59.156 --> 0:04:01.596 to me, that was a kind of like very extreme 0:04:01.636 --> 0:04:06.156 introversion of almost like just leave me alone. 0:04:06.556 --> 0:04:09.036 I found it so funny and charming that in your book, 0:04:09.476 --> 0:04:13.476 when you talk about resenting parts of your personality that 0:04:13.636 --> 0:04:16.476 you're like and guys don't just take my word for it. 0:04:16.996 --> 0:04:19.636 Other people didn't like me that much either. 0:04:19.836 --> 0:04:22.396 Yes, so there were kind of signs along the way 0:04:22.716 --> 0:04:25.356 that not only was I not thrilled with my personality, 0:04:25.436 --> 0:04:28.956 other people were not thrilled with it either. So one 0:04:28.996 --> 0:04:31.156 of them was that in grad school, we were all 0:04:31.156 --> 0:04:34.676 paired up and we had to write obituaries, like fake obituaries, 0:04:34.676 --> 0:04:37.716 obviously about one another, as sort of practice for the 0:04:37.756 --> 0:04:39.756 first job that everyone has at a newspaper, which is 0:04:39.796 --> 0:04:43.556 writing obituaries. So for these obituaries, you had to interview 0:04:43.596 --> 0:04:47.796 the other person's friends and family. And I remembered one 0:04:47.836 --> 0:04:50.596 line that stood out from my partner's obituary about me, 0:04:50.716 --> 0:04:55.756 which is, she really enjoys grocery shopping. He called my 0:04:55.916 --> 0:04:58.556 best friend from college, and that is what she said. 0:04:59.396 --> 0:05:01.476 And then there was like I was like a bridesmaid 0:05:01.476 --> 0:05:03.116 of one of my other friends or no, I was 0:05:03.116 --> 0:05:04.996 the maid of honor. And on her wedding website she 0:05:05.116 --> 0:05:10.396 was like, Olga doesn't tolerate bullshit from anyone, and I 0:05:10.476 --> 0:05:14.556 was like, I feel like, typically you want a maid 0:05:14.596 --> 0:05:17.716 of honor who is like, she's the best, She's always 0:05:17.756 --> 0:05:21.276 there for me exactly exactly, you know, has some sort 0:05:21.316 --> 0:05:23.836 of other qualities than like no bullshit, tolerate. 0:05:24.596 --> 0:05:26.636 We call this damning with faint praise. 0:05:26.476 --> 0:05:29.516 Right, yes, yes, And so there were just a lot 0:05:29.516 --> 0:05:33.436 of situations where I was like, am I like bringing 0:05:33.476 --> 0:05:36.156 my best into the world sometimes? 0:05:36.316 --> 0:05:38.476 Or you know, I don't know, is this too much? 0:05:38.556 --> 0:05:42.716 This sort of cynical, introverted, kind of neurotic person that 0:05:42.756 --> 0:05:43.196 I've become. 0:05:44.236 --> 0:05:46.476 There's a story you talk about in your book that 0:05:46.556 --> 0:05:51.356 I found so much resonance in where this very good 0:05:51.396 --> 0:05:53.916 thing happens to you in your professional life. Right, it's 0:05:53.956 --> 0:05:56.836 a kind of a big career moment, but your brain 0:05:57.156 --> 0:06:03.476 finds ways to self sabotage and to create lemons out 0:06:03.516 --> 0:06:06.636 of lemonade. Essentially. Can you share a little bit of 0:06:06.636 --> 0:06:09.356 that story? I think it exemplifies well what a can 0:06:09.436 --> 0:06:11.516 mean to be neurotic in everyday life. 0:06:12.396 --> 0:06:14.556 Sure, And I'm going to preface this by saying that 0:06:14.636 --> 0:06:17.196 the story will make everyone hate me at first. I 0:06:17.276 --> 0:06:20.636 also hate the version of myself that wasn't grateful this day. 0:06:20.916 --> 0:06:21.236 Okay. 0:06:21.236 --> 0:06:25.516 With that said, So I'm in Miami and my boss 0:06:25.516 --> 0:06:26.836 will call me and they're like, we need to take 0:06:26.836 --> 0:06:28.676 a photo of you, like a professional photo of you 0:06:29.076 --> 0:06:31.836 to illustrate this story that you wrote. Part of me 0:06:31.996 --> 0:06:35.276 was obviously like wooho, like my Carrie Bradshaw moment. You 0:06:35.276 --> 0:06:38.236 know I'm gonna be photographed, and then I kind of 0:06:38.276 --> 0:06:42.596 started to freak out. I hate having my photo taken. 0:06:42.916 --> 0:06:44.756 There's just something about it. I feel like I don't 0:06:44.756 --> 0:06:47.716 look the way I really look in photos. And I 0:06:47.756 --> 0:06:50.356 also hadn't gotten a haircut in a while. So I 0:06:50.436 --> 0:06:53.636 go and I book a hair appointment and I kind 0:06:53.676 --> 0:06:55.636 of don't describe what I want very well, which was 0:06:55.676 --> 0:06:59.956 on me, and she cuts it into probably the worst 0:06:59.956 --> 0:07:03.916 haircut I've ever gotten outside of like a supercuts. 0:07:04.276 --> 0:07:06.636 Can you just describe it just for listeners, like, what 0:07:06.676 --> 0:07:07.316 does it look like? 0:07:07.516 --> 0:07:09.916 It looked like an avant garde mush. I think she 0:07:10.076 --> 0:07:12.796 was going for like a layered almost like a Rachel 0:07:12.916 --> 0:07:15.716 from Friends type thing, except my hair doesn't do that, 0:07:15.996 --> 0:07:19.156 and so it just looked strange. So on top of 0:07:19.156 --> 0:07:20.556 time to get my phototaken, I have to get my 0:07:20.596 --> 0:07:24.916 phototaken with awful hair. Miami, for all its positive qualities, 0:07:25.356 --> 0:07:27.956 a lot of traffic. Hard to find this photo studio. 0:07:28.716 --> 0:07:31.436 There's no parking because there's never parking. The first thing 0:07:31.476 --> 0:07:33.996 the photographer says is, do you want to fix your hair? 0:07:34.916 --> 0:07:37.356 There's this's a specific type of photo which I have 0:07:37.436 --> 0:07:40.716 to look very serious and not smiling, and they want 0:07:40.756 --> 0:07:42.516 it to be a profile photo. 0:07:43.316 --> 0:07:44.556 I do not like. 0:07:44.556 --> 0:07:48.156 Having profile photos taken of me. I'm like just getting 0:07:48.236 --> 0:07:50.316 like more and more clenched. Is this is all happening? 0:07:50.836 --> 0:07:51.676 Whatever? That's over? 0:07:52.316 --> 0:07:56.236 I drive on into Miami. I take a wrong turn 0:07:56.276 --> 0:07:58.476 because I'm a terrible driver, and end up like having 0:07:58.476 --> 0:08:03.796 to circumnavigate this little cruise ship launching island. It takes forever. 0:08:04.076 --> 0:08:06.956 My boss is like slacking me about other things. My 0:08:07.076 --> 0:08:09.436 mom is flying in that night and I have to 0:08:09.476 --> 0:08:13.276 go get groceries for her at the grocery store. This 0:08:13.356 --> 0:08:16.356 is again a very small thing, but the shopping cart 0:08:16.996 --> 0:08:20.996 locks on my way to my car to load the groceries, 0:08:21.156 --> 0:08:23.796 so I have to like drag the shopping cart full 0:08:23.836 --> 0:08:26.836 of groceries across the parking lot. So I get home 0:08:27.116 --> 0:08:31.556 and I just melted down. I was like crying, wailing, 0:08:32.196 --> 0:08:35.116 chugging wine, just like I need to get to a 0:08:35.156 --> 0:08:36.796 place of calm, and I have no idea how to 0:08:36.836 --> 0:08:40.636 do it. Telling my husband I don't want kids because 0:08:40.636 --> 0:08:42.956 I can't handle kids obviously because I can't even handle 0:08:43.036 --> 0:08:47.396 like Miami on a frustrating day. Yeah, I was having 0:08:47.436 --> 0:08:50.316 this connection and that is sort of what launched the 0:08:50.316 --> 0:08:50.756 whole thing. 0:08:51.516 --> 0:08:54.036 So would you say, then, based on the scenario, just 0:08:54.076 --> 0:08:59.196 describe that the trait you most identified with was neuroticism. 0:08:59.516 --> 0:09:01.476 Was that the thing that you were finding to be 0:09:01.516 --> 0:09:02.396 the most challenging. 0:09:03.036 --> 0:09:04.836 Yeah, it was definitely the one that in day to 0:09:04.956 --> 0:09:08.036 day life, I felt like was holding me back from 0:09:08.396 --> 0:09:11.236 enjoying life the most. There are a million ways to 0:09:11.316 --> 0:09:15.116 have interpreted that day, and I chose the worst possible interpretation, 0:09:15.596 --> 0:09:19.516 and that really is neuroticism. It's like seeing threats, seeing 0:09:19.596 --> 0:09:23.356 bad things, being anxious, being depressed. That's what the trade 0:09:23.356 --> 0:09:25.476 of neuroticism is all about. And I was like, wow, 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:29.436 this trait is why I have days like this, meaning 0:09:29.436 --> 0:09:31.196 I interpret days like today in this way. 0:09:32.036 --> 0:09:35.156 So you have this experience with the mushroom haircut and 0:09:35.796 --> 0:09:38.316 the photo shoot gone wrong and then everything else going 0:09:38.356 --> 0:09:40.196 wrong that day, and you said that was kind of 0:09:40.196 --> 0:09:43.276 your like come to Jesus moment, right, Okay, things, something 0:09:43.356 --> 0:09:47.396 needs to change because I'm actively self sabotaging my happiness 0:09:47.596 --> 0:09:51.156 or like what could be happiness in most moments of life. Yes, 0:09:51.756 --> 0:09:56.476 what first gave you the idea that personality change was 0:09:56.556 --> 0:09:57.516 even a possibility? 0:09:57.956 --> 0:10:00.796 Yeah, So this is some research that I came across. 0:10:00.836 --> 0:10:04.036 It showed that personality can change through things like behaviors, 0:10:04.076 --> 0:10:07.796 just stuff you do every day, small things, small habits 0:10:08.276 --> 0:10:11.116 that can actually alter the way you think about the world, 0:10:11.516 --> 0:10:13.156 the things you like to do, the things you end 0:10:13.236 --> 0:10:15.556 up doing. And I was like, huh, that's kind of 0:10:16.356 --> 0:10:20.596 interesting because though neuroticism was probably my biggest problem, it 0:10:20.636 --> 0:10:23.676 wasn't my only problem. And I felt like a personality 0:10:23.676 --> 0:10:26.636 overhaul was sort of an effective way to get at 0:10:26.716 --> 0:10:28.556 all of the stuff I was struggling with at the time. 0:10:29.676 --> 0:10:32.716 So you have this realization, Okay, personality can change, right, 0:10:32.756 --> 0:10:34.956 I'm seeing that in the research. Now I'm going to 0:10:34.956 --> 0:10:38.996 embark on a journey to better understand personality and understand 0:10:38.996 --> 0:10:40.996 what levers are at my disposal so I can in 0:10:41.036 --> 0:10:44.916 fact change it. And I loved learning about the history 0:10:44.916 --> 0:10:49.276 of personality science, especially because researchers had been a bit 0:10:49.316 --> 0:10:52.436 all over the place right historically, I'm like, what is personality? 0:10:52.436 --> 0:10:55.436 What's the best way to test it? Can you tell 0:10:55.476 --> 0:10:59.716 me about the first researcher who essentially put forth the 0:10:59.756 --> 0:11:06.116 idea of personality traits, these distinct features that we each carry. Yeah. 0:11:06.156 --> 0:11:09.796 So this was Gordon Allport, and he was sort of 0:11:10.076 --> 0:11:14.116 reacting to Freud and a lot of previous researchers who 0:11:14.156 --> 0:11:18.796 were just kind of like making stuff up, like you know, 0:11:18.916 --> 0:11:21.556 people must secretly want to have sex with their moms 0:11:21.636 --> 0:11:25.076 and that's personality. And he's like, no, let's like actually 0:11:25.156 --> 0:11:28.316 just see what what are some of the ways we 0:11:28.356 --> 0:11:31.356 describe people? Maybe that's personality. So he sat down and 0:11:31.356 --> 0:11:33.276 he looked through the dictionary and he just made a 0:11:33.316 --> 0:11:36.156 list of adjectives that can be used to describe people. 0:11:36.636 --> 0:11:38.116 And some of them were kind of out there, like 0:11:38.196 --> 0:11:40.756 airy and zestful or two of them, which like, I 0:11:40.796 --> 0:11:43.236 don't think you describe anyone as like zestful. And so 0:11:43.596 --> 0:11:46.956 he had a huge list of thousands of traits. Researchers 0:11:46.996 --> 0:11:50.316 eventually just winnowed down through those and they narrowed all 0:11:50.316 --> 0:11:53.116 of those traits, all those synonyms, down to five big traits. 0:11:53.636 --> 0:11:55.756 Can you walk me through the big five traits and 0:11:55.796 --> 0:11:56.556 what each of them are? 0:11:56.956 --> 0:11:57.236 Sure? 0:11:57.396 --> 0:12:00.276 Yeah, The Big five traits can be remembered with the 0:12:00.316 --> 0:12:04.956 acronym ocean. The first's openness to experiences, which is sort 0:12:04.996 --> 0:12:11.836 of imaginativeness and creativity, political liberalism. Also in their conscientiousness, 0:12:11.876 --> 0:12:15.876 which is getting stuff done, being on time, meeting deadlines, 0:12:16.116 --> 0:12:21.316 being organized, extraversion, which is being cheerful, having a lot 0:12:21.356 --> 0:12:26.116 going on, just being really busy, and being a people person. Agreeableness, 0:12:26.156 --> 0:12:28.556 which is also being a people person, but more in 0:12:28.676 --> 0:12:31.956 like a warm, empathetic way. So you might not have 0:12:31.996 --> 0:12:35.796 a ton of friends, but you're just so close with 0:12:35.916 --> 0:12:38.676 the ones that you do have, and like you're just 0:12:38.716 --> 0:12:42.796 a super nice, sweet angel person. And then neuroticism is 0:12:43.076 --> 0:12:46.836 basically anxiety and depression. Okay, the flip side of neuroticism 0:12:46.876 --> 0:12:49.876 is emotional stability, and that's the one that you do want. 0:12:50.116 --> 0:12:51.156 That's a good thing. 0:12:51.516 --> 0:12:56.796 So is it fair to say, like neuroticism is bad, 0:12:57.156 --> 0:12:59.596 Like is that what the personality scientists are saying, Then 0:13:00.236 --> 0:13:03.676 if they're saying the flip side is emotional stability, right right, right, 0:13:03.956 --> 0:13:07.676 Like extraversion introversion. Okay, we've got pros and cons to both, 0:13:07.756 --> 0:13:11.196 but like neuroticism versus emotional stability. 0:13:11.716 --> 0:13:16.396 Yeah, so generally neuroticism is considered bad and all of 0:13:16.396 --> 0:13:18.916 those other ones that I mentioned those other four higher 0:13:18.996 --> 0:13:22.876 levels of those are considered good. They tend to correlate 0:13:22.916 --> 0:13:26.676 with well being. At the same time, you don't want 0:13:26.716 --> 0:13:30.516 to be too high on them or like just off 0:13:30.556 --> 0:13:34.476 the charts high. So conscientiousness is a good example. Conscientiousness 0:13:34.556 --> 0:13:39.676 is correlated with longevity, making more money, being healthier. But 0:13:39.716 --> 0:13:42.236 if you think about people who are just super duper 0:13:42.316 --> 0:13:45.716 detail oriented, that can start to be like obsessive compulsive 0:13:45.716 --> 0:13:49.316 disorder almost sure, so you kind of want to stop 0:13:49.356 --> 0:13:50.836 short of those extremes. 0:13:51.076 --> 0:13:53.796 I mean, the reason I asked too, is that I 0:13:53.796 --> 0:13:56.556 think we can argue that there's many benefits to being 0:13:56.876 --> 0:14:00.916 a bit neurotic right in everyday life. And more importantly, 0:14:00.996 --> 0:14:04.556 I think this raises a more philosophical question about how 0:14:04.596 --> 0:14:07.396 we gauge whether personality traits are quote good or bad, 0:14:07.476 --> 0:14:10.876 which is, should we be only solving for well being 0:14:10.876 --> 0:14:14.116 and happiness on an individual level. I mean, I'm certain 0:14:14.236 --> 0:14:18.676 that Beethoven was highly neurotic and his artistic contributions to 0:14:18.716 --> 0:14:20.156 the world were profound. 0:14:20.436 --> 0:14:21.996 Yeah, I think that's a really good point. 0:14:22.276 --> 0:14:26.316 It just raises an interesting question of again, what we're 0:14:26.316 --> 0:14:28.516 solving for, Like what's the north star? Is it for? 0:14:28.596 --> 0:14:30.956 Every human to be maximally happy, or is it for 0:14:30.996 --> 0:14:34.356 every human to live kind of a rich life full 0:14:34.396 --> 0:14:38.236 of varied emotions. And then on a societal level, couldn't 0:14:38.236 --> 0:14:41.236 we argue that society flourishes when it has this mixing 0:14:41.276 --> 0:14:44.156 pot of different personality types that were just better off 0:14:44.716 --> 0:14:48.876 when there is that diversity kind of built in. I 0:14:48.916 --> 0:14:53.196 do wonder were you worried that trying to change your 0:14:53.236 --> 0:14:57.876 personality kind of overall might impede aspects of the traits 0:14:57.956 --> 0:14:59.036 you actually wanted to preserve. 0:14:59.716 --> 0:15:04.036 Yeah, there was always this element of striving in anxiety, 0:15:04.156 --> 0:15:07.916 Like I'm nervous and you know, I'm worried, but I'm 0:15:07.956 --> 0:15:11.236 also trying to do better. I'm trying to do well, 0:15:11.636 --> 0:15:13.796 and I think part of me was a little reluctant 0:15:13.836 --> 0:15:16.276 to give up on the anxiety because I worried that 0:15:16.276 --> 0:15:18.236 it would mean that I was no longer trying to 0:15:18.316 --> 0:15:18.756 do well. 0:15:19.756 --> 0:15:22.436 Also, that's what gives life meaning and purpose, right, and 0:15:22.476 --> 0:15:23.916 like gets you out of that in the morning is 0:15:24.276 --> 0:15:25.956 some feeling of striving. 0:15:26.076 --> 0:15:26.956 Right exactly. 0:15:27.196 --> 0:15:30.876 I think reading those studies and seeing that they worked 0:15:30.916 --> 0:15:33.396 for people gave me hope that I could do it too, 0:15:33.596 --> 0:15:36.556 because I did think, Okay, if I'm actually able to 0:15:36.636 --> 0:15:39.356 change my personality, that could make my life better. 0:15:41.316 --> 0:15:44.756 After the break, Olga gets to work, and let's just 0:15:44.836 --> 0:15:46.596 say it's not without pain. 0:15:46.996 --> 0:15:49.436 I just was like, I don't want to do this. 0:15:49.556 --> 0:15:51.156 I want to just jump out of my skin and 0:15:51.276 --> 0:15:52.116 run out the front door. 0:15:52.796 --> 0:16:02.916 That's after the break. On a slight change of plans, 0:16:03.996 --> 0:16:08.396 Olga gave herself one year to change her personality. Her 0:16:08.436 --> 0:16:13.796 goal to become more extroverted, more agreeable, and less neurotic. 0:16:14.796 --> 0:16:17.796 Olga found in her research that even small changes a 0:16:17.836 --> 0:16:21.036 person makes in their daily lives can alter the way 0:16:21.076 --> 0:16:22.196 they engage with the world. 0:16:22.876 --> 0:16:26.236 So I signed up for improv, I signed up for sailing, 0:16:26.956 --> 0:16:29.036 I sign up for a bunch of meetup groups that 0:16:29.116 --> 0:16:31.756 went like hiking and other stuff. I just tried to 0:16:31.796 --> 0:16:34.076 get out as much as possible. And so for each 0:16:34.116 --> 0:16:36.156 of the trades I basically went through and made like 0:16:36.196 --> 0:16:39.676 a little curriculum for myself. 0:16:39.916 --> 0:16:42.556 Let's talk about improv. That sounds like my worst nightmare. 0:16:42.636 --> 0:16:45.556 So tell me about that first day of class, and 0:16:45.756 --> 0:16:47.436 like just set a scene for me of what it 0:16:47.476 --> 0:16:52.236 was like for Olga. Who's there for like really non 0:16:52.276 --> 0:16:55.716 traditional reasons, Right, You're like, I'm actually here because I'm 0:16:55.716 --> 0:16:58.596 trying to overhaul my personality and I would really like 0:16:58.716 --> 0:17:02.876 to be slightly more extroverted, which is a hilarious premise 0:17:02.956 --> 0:17:04.556 for joining an improv class. 0:17:04.716 --> 0:17:08.436 Yeah, I was not there for the right reasons to 0:17:08.916 --> 0:17:13.236 you the reality to Yeah, so yeah, I signed up, 0:17:13.236 --> 0:17:14.996 and I have to say that I was like, I'll 0:17:15.036 --> 0:17:16.916 just deal with the fact that this is my worst 0:17:16.956 --> 0:17:18.676 night merit later. Like I kind of just put it 0:17:18.676 --> 0:17:20.196 off and put it off, and then suddenly it was 0:17:20.196 --> 0:17:21.996 the day. It was the day of the improv class, 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:24.596 and I was like, Okay, I'm actually gonna go. I 0:17:24.636 --> 0:17:26.676 hate performing in front of other people. I hate people 0:17:26.676 --> 0:17:31.036 looking at me, I hate being silly. So I'm driving there. 0:17:31.116 --> 0:17:34.196 It's an hour long drive, and I'm kind of getting 0:17:34.236 --> 0:17:37.596 mentally prepared and like whatever, it's not a big deal. 0:17:38.116 --> 0:17:40.396 Just be cool, you know, all the stuff that doesn't 0:17:40.476 --> 0:17:41.036 really work. 0:17:40.916 --> 0:17:41.396 For me at all. 0:17:42.876 --> 0:17:45.996 And so we like sit around in a circle and 0:17:46.796 --> 0:17:50.756 she does intros, introduce yourself, have you done improv before? 0:17:51.676 --> 0:17:54.316 Like how long can we like draw out these intros 0:17:54.356 --> 0:17:56.676 so that we don't actually have to do any improv 0:17:56.676 --> 0:17:59.596 on the first day. And then she's like, okay, let's 0:17:59.596 --> 0:18:02.316 get started, and I just had this extreme feeling of 0:18:02.356 --> 0:18:05.676 wanting to die, like I just want to not exist, 0:18:06.436 --> 0:18:08.156 because I just really didn't want to do it. I 0:18:08.196 --> 0:18:10.476 was like, I don't want to do this. I want 0:18:10.516 --> 0:18:11.996 to just jump out of my skin and run out 0:18:12.036 --> 0:18:15.236 the front door. But I did not do that. I 0:18:16.396 --> 0:18:21.436 stayed there, and I improvised a bus stop conversation with 0:18:21.476 --> 0:18:28.836 someone else, and I improvised being a purchaser of sulfuric acid. 0:18:29.236 --> 0:18:30.716 Wow, what else? 0:18:31.476 --> 0:18:34.796 Yeah, I would not be impressed. Actually, the fact that 0:18:34.876 --> 0:18:35.396 you did. 0:18:35.196 --> 0:18:37.516 It at all. I mean, I don't even care about quality. 0:18:38.716 --> 0:18:40.836 Just the mere fact you didn't dissolve into a puddle 0:18:40.836 --> 0:18:43.916 on the ground is like applause worthy in my opinion. 0:18:43.956 --> 0:18:44.276 Thank you. 0:18:44.636 --> 0:18:48.236 Yeah. So how long did you participate in these classes, 0:18:48.356 --> 0:18:51.596 these improv classes? And then were you noticing changes over time? 0:18:52.556 --> 0:18:55.636 I did improv for probably about a year all told. 0:18:56.116 --> 0:18:59.876 The dread was there almost every time for the first 0:19:00.836 --> 0:19:04.236 five or six months. But what I started noticing over 0:19:04.276 --> 0:19:07.316 time is that invariably I felt really happy afterward. 0:19:07.636 --> 0:19:08.956 It was just like a mood boost. 0:19:09.156 --> 0:19:12.316 For whatever reason, being really silly with other people with 0:19:12.396 --> 0:19:16.436 no expectation of performance in a good way. There's no 0:19:16.516 --> 0:19:19.356 expectation that what we did was good. That was really 0:19:19.396 --> 0:19:21.796 freeing for me, and it was just like really fun. 0:19:21.916 --> 0:19:23.636 It was like what people talk about when they talk 0:19:23.636 --> 0:19:27.316 about having fun, which is just like being silly and 0:19:27.396 --> 0:19:28.996 playful for a few hours. 0:19:29.556 --> 0:19:34.116 So you actually found yourself enjoying it. Maybe it's too 0:19:34.156 --> 0:19:35.876 far to say you were looking you looked forward to 0:19:35.876 --> 0:19:38.436 the classes, right, I did not look forward to that, 0:19:38.516 --> 0:19:41.076 but you found it less painful over time. 0:19:41.356 --> 0:19:43.436 So this is still my thing with extroversion is that 0:19:43.476 --> 0:19:44.956 I'm still like, oh, I don't want to go. I 0:19:44.996 --> 0:19:47.236 don't want to go. Maybe I should just cancel, maybe 0:19:47.236 --> 0:19:49.836 I should just bow out. And then I'm there and 0:19:49.876 --> 0:19:52.916 I like slowly warm up over time to whatever the 0:19:52.916 --> 0:19:56.516 situation is improv but even you know, a party mixer, 0:19:56.756 --> 0:19:59.436 happy hour or whatever, I'm there. It gets better over 0:19:59.476 --> 0:20:03.716 time and I'm happy after it ends, I'm like, oh, 0:20:03.756 --> 0:20:05.636 that was really cool, that was really neat. That was 0:20:05.756 --> 0:20:07.916 nice to catch up with them, you know what have you. 0:20:08.036 --> 0:20:09.876 And there's studies on this too that show that like 0:20:09.956 --> 0:20:12.476 hardened introverts will be like I'm not going to socialize. 0:20:12.476 --> 0:20:13.476 I'm not going to socialize. 0:20:13.676 --> 0:20:15.796 Then the researcher is like, go socialize for a couple 0:20:15.796 --> 0:20:18.036 of minutes, just do it, and then they do it 0:20:18.076 --> 0:20:20.356 and then they feel better afterwards. Yeah and that Yeah, 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:21.636 that's exactly what happened to me. 0:20:21.836 --> 0:20:23.876 Yeah, I love that research. It's so compelling. It's like 0:20:23.876 --> 0:20:25.556 people are like, there's no way I'd want to talk 0:20:25.596 --> 0:20:27.276 to the stranger, and then they talk to the stranger 0:20:27.276 --> 0:20:29.036 and it's like that was the best moment of their 0:20:29.116 --> 0:20:32.156 day having that interaction. So you mentioned a couple of 0:20:32.196 --> 0:20:35.716 things that you tried in order to boost extraversions, so sailing, 0:20:35.996 --> 0:20:40.956 these improv classes, other activities. When it came to boosting agreeableness, 0:20:41.556 --> 0:20:43.756 this one was really surprising to me because you actually 0:20:44.076 --> 0:20:47.516 took an anger management class, and I wouldn't naturally have thought, oh, 0:20:47.596 --> 0:20:52.516 the soul for agreeableness is managing anger. But then when 0:20:52.516 --> 0:20:54.716 I was thinking about your definition, right, you talked about 0:20:54.756 --> 0:20:57.276 it as being about human empathy, right, Like, it's about 0:20:58.316 --> 0:21:01.196 exercising that empathy in moments you have maybe more compassion 0:21:01.236 --> 0:21:04.156 for others, And so I can understand then the connection 0:21:04.316 --> 0:21:06.756 to anger. You want to limit the frustration that you 0:21:06.836 --> 0:21:09.516 have in response to other people, thus made making you 0:21:09.956 --> 0:21:12.076 more agreeable. Is that the right way to think about it? 0:21:12.596 --> 0:21:15.716 Yeah, exactly. And I mean one thing that did come 0:21:15.756 --> 0:21:20.796 through consistently is that as we all noticed opportunities in 0:21:20.836 --> 0:21:23.356 our lives to have more empathy for people that made 0:21:23.436 --> 0:21:26.916 us mad, we became less mad at them. Like one 0:21:26.956 --> 0:21:29.756 of my classmates said she was always mad at a 0:21:29.756 --> 0:21:32.836 friend who was always late, and then the friend told 0:21:32.836 --> 0:21:35.236 her that she's always late because she's always checking to 0:21:35.316 --> 0:21:38.076 unplug all of her appliances around her house because she 0:21:38.116 --> 0:21:40.956