1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:23,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey, slight Changers, Maya Here. My new newsletter, which 2 00:00:23,036 --> 00:00:26,236 Speaker 1: I'm so excited about, is out now. It's called Change 3 00:00:26,276 --> 00:00:29,356 Speaker 1: with Maya Shunker. It's totally free and you can sign 4 00:00:29,436 --> 00:00:32,596 Speaker 1: up at Changewmaya dot com or check out the link 5 00:00:32,636 --> 00:00:35,716 Speaker 1: in our show notes. The reason I started this newsletter 6 00:00:35,876 --> 00:00:38,636 Speaker 1: is that I'm so excited about building a community with 7 00:00:38,756 --> 00:00:41,676 Speaker 1: all of you around how we can navigate change with 8 00:00:41,716 --> 00:00:46,276 Speaker 1: more wisdom and with more hope. I'll be sharing personal updates, 9 00:00:46,356 --> 00:00:49,516 Speaker 1: links to what I'm reading or watching lately, exciting new 10 00:00:49,596 --> 00:00:53,476 Speaker 1: science about change, and my top takeaways for my conversations 11 00:00:53,476 --> 00:00:56,836 Speaker 1: on this show, with some behind the scenes action. I 12 00:00:56,876 --> 00:00:58,916 Speaker 1: hope you'll sign up and spread the word with your 13 00:00:58,956 --> 00:01:03,756 Speaker 1: friends again. You can sign up at Changewithmaya dot com. Okay, now, 14 00:01:03,796 --> 00:01:16,316 Speaker 1: onto the episode, there were. 15 00:01:16,236 --> 00:01:19,596 Speaker 2: Kind of signs along the way that not only was 16 00:01:19,596 --> 00:01:22,876 Speaker 2: I not thrilled with my personality, other people were not thrilled. 17 00:01:22,596 --> 00:01:23,116 Speaker 3: With it either. 18 00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:28,876 Speaker 1: Olga Hasan didn't really like herself. A self described neurotic, 19 00:01:28,996 --> 00:01:32,556 Speaker 1: she tended to fixate on the negative at parties. Her 20 00:01:32,636 --> 00:01:35,796 Speaker 1: go to conversation starter was everything that was wrong in 21 00:01:35,836 --> 00:01:39,716 Speaker 1: her life. Olga just assumed that she'd always be this way, 22 00:01:40,316 --> 00:01:43,916 Speaker 1: but then she came across research showing that personality is 23 00:01:43,916 --> 00:01:45,636 Speaker 1: something you can change. 24 00:01:45,916 --> 00:01:49,036 Speaker 2: And I was like, huh, that's kind of interesting, because 25 00:01:49,116 --> 00:01:52,756 Speaker 2: though neuroticism was probably my biggest problem, it wasn't my 26 00:01:52,876 --> 00:01:56,316 Speaker 2: only problem, and I felt like a personality overhaul was 27 00:01:56,996 --> 00:01:58,836 Speaker 2: sort of an effective way to get at all of 28 00:01:58,876 --> 00:02:00,436 Speaker 2: the stuff I was struggling with at the time. 29 00:02:04,756 --> 00:02:12,676 Speaker 1: On Today's show Extreme Makeover Personality Edition, I'm Maya Shunker, 30 00:02:12,956 --> 00:02:16,396 Speaker 1: a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a 31 00:02:16,436 --> 00:02:19,156 Speaker 1: slight change of plans. I show about who we are 32 00:02:19,316 --> 00:02:26,516 Speaker 1: and who we become in the face of a big change. 33 00:02:30,876 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 1: Olga Hasan is a writer for The Atlantic, and she 34 00:02:34,116 --> 00:02:38,036 Speaker 1: recently decided to tackle her biggest challenge to date. Could 35 00:02:38,076 --> 00:02:41,036 Speaker 1: she fix the parts of her personality that she didn't like. 36 00:02:41,836 --> 00:02:45,556 Speaker 1: She gave herself a year to find out. She chronicles 37 00:02:45,596 --> 00:02:49,236 Speaker 1: this experiment in her book Me But Better, The Science 38 00:02:49,276 --> 00:02:53,236 Speaker 1: and Promise of Personality Change. Olga says that from the 39 00:02:53,276 --> 00:02:55,996 Speaker 1: time she was a little kid, she's known one thing 40 00:02:56,196 --> 00:02:56,796 Speaker 1: to be true. 41 00:02:57,436 --> 00:03:00,756 Speaker 2: I am very anxious and have always been very anxious. 42 00:03:01,356 --> 00:03:03,716 Speaker 2: My parents told me that as a toddler. One of 43 00:03:03,716 --> 00:03:06,716 Speaker 2: my first full phrases that I said was I'm not 44 00:03:06,756 --> 00:03:07,396 Speaker 2: going to like it. 45 00:03:07,436 --> 00:03:11,556 Speaker 4: I'm going to be uncomfortable. Oh about okay, new situations. 46 00:03:12,596 --> 00:03:15,916 Speaker 1: What a mature, precocious toddler. You have all the words 47 00:03:15,956 --> 00:03:17,996 Speaker 1: you needed to describe that. I'm impressed. 48 00:03:18,716 --> 00:03:21,436 Speaker 2: I was mature and precocious, but I was very very anxious. 49 00:03:21,476 --> 00:03:25,116 Speaker 2: I did not like new experiences and new things. That 50 00:03:26,076 --> 00:03:28,876 Speaker 2: was a problem because when I was three, we immigrated 51 00:03:28,916 --> 00:03:31,716 Speaker 2: from the USSR, which is a new experience and a 52 00:03:31,756 --> 00:03:35,036 Speaker 2: new thing, and I think I just never really got 53 00:03:35,036 --> 00:03:38,436 Speaker 2: over my anxiety, my kind of like wariness of new 54 00:03:38,516 --> 00:03:41,876 Speaker 2: things and new people. I was never really a joiner, 55 00:03:42,276 --> 00:03:44,236 Speaker 2: being an immigrant kid. I was always sort of like, 56 00:03:45,276 --> 00:03:47,916 Speaker 2: are other people judging me? You know? Am I sticking 57 00:03:47,916 --> 00:03:50,236 Speaker 2: out from everyone else? And so because of that, I 58 00:03:50,316 --> 00:03:53,436 Speaker 2: think I always kind of retreated from not just big 59 00:03:53,476 --> 00:03:55,516 Speaker 2: groups of people, but just sort of people in general. 60 00:03:55,636 --> 00:03:58,596 Speaker 2: Like I kind of kept everyone at arm's length. So 61 00:03:59,156 --> 00:04:01,596 Speaker 2: to me, that was a kind of like very extreme 62 00:04:01,636 --> 00:04:06,156 Speaker 2: introversion of almost like just leave me alone. 63 00:04:06,556 --> 00:04:09,036 Speaker 1: I found it so funny and charming that in your book, 64 00:04:09,476 --> 00:04:13,476 Speaker 1: when you talk about resenting parts of your personality that 65 00:04:13,636 --> 00:04:16,476 Speaker 1: you're like and guys don't just take my word for it. 66 00:04:16,996 --> 00:04:19,636 Speaker 1: Other people didn't like me that much either. 67 00:04:19,836 --> 00:04:22,396 Speaker 2: Yes, so there were kind of signs along the way 68 00:04:22,716 --> 00:04:25,356 Speaker 2: that not only was I not thrilled with my personality, 69 00:04:25,436 --> 00:04:28,956 Speaker 2: other people were not thrilled with it either. So one 70 00:04:28,996 --> 00:04:31,156 Speaker 2: of them was that in grad school, we were all 71 00:04:31,156 --> 00:04:34,676 Speaker 2: paired up and we had to write obituaries, like fake obituaries, 72 00:04:34,676 --> 00:04:37,716 Speaker 2: obviously about one another, as sort of practice for the 73 00:04:37,756 --> 00:04:39,756 Speaker 2: first job that everyone has at a newspaper, which is 74 00:04:39,796 --> 00:04:43,556 Speaker 2: writing obituaries. So for these obituaries, you had to interview 75 00:04:43,596 --> 00:04:47,796 Speaker 2: the other person's friends and family. And I remembered one 76 00:04:47,836 --> 00:04:50,596 Speaker 2: line that stood out from my partner's obituary about me, 77 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:55,756 Speaker 2: which is, she really enjoys grocery shopping. He called my 78 00:04:55,916 --> 00:04:58,556 Speaker 2: best friend from college, and that is what she said. 79 00:04:59,396 --> 00:05:01,476 Speaker 2: And then there was like I was like a bridesmaid 80 00:05:01,476 --> 00:05:03,116 Speaker 2: of one of my other friends or no, I was 81 00:05:03,116 --> 00:05:04,996 Speaker 2: the maid of honor. And on her wedding website she 82 00:05:05,116 --> 00:05:10,396 Speaker 2: was like, Olga doesn't tolerate bullshit from anyone, and I 83 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:14,556 Speaker 2: was like, I feel like, typically you want a maid 84 00:05:14,596 --> 00:05:17,716 Speaker 2: of honor who is like, she's the best, She's always 85 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:21,276 Speaker 2: there for me exactly exactly, you know, has some sort 86 00:05:21,316 --> 00:05:23,836 Speaker 2: of other qualities than like no bullshit, tolerate. 87 00:05:24,596 --> 00:05:26,636 Speaker 1: We call this damning with faint praise. 88 00:05:26,476 --> 00:05:29,516 Speaker 2: Right, yes, yes, And so there were just a lot 89 00:05:29,516 --> 00:05:33,436 Speaker 2: of situations where I was like, am I like bringing 90 00:05:33,476 --> 00:05:36,156 Speaker 2: my best into the world sometimes? 91 00:05:36,316 --> 00:05:38,476 Speaker 4: Or you know, I don't know, is this too much? 92 00:05:38,556 --> 00:05:42,716 Speaker 2: This sort of cynical, introverted, kind of neurotic person that 93 00:05:42,756 --> 00:05:43,196 Speaker 2: I've become. 94 00:05:44,236 --> 00:05:46,476 Speaker 1: There's a story you talk about in your book that 95 00:05:46,556 --> 00:05:51,356 Speaker 1: I found so much resonance in where this very good 96 00:05:51,396 --> 00:05:53,916 Speaker 1: thing happens to you in your professional life. Right, it's 97 00:05:53,956 --> 00:05:56,836 Speaker 1: a kind of a big career moment, but your brain 98 00:05:57,156 --> 00:06:03,476 Speaker 1: finds ways to self sabotage and to create lemons out 99 00:06:03,516 --> 00:06:06,636 Speaker 1: of lemonade. Essentially. Can you share a little bit of 100 00:06:06,636 --> 00:06:09,356 Speaker 1: that story? I think it exemplifies well what a can 101 00:06:09,436 --> 00:06:11,516 Speaker 1: mean to be neurotic in everyday life. 102 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:14,556 Speaker 2: Sure, And I'm going to preface this by saying that 103 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:17,196 Speaker 2: the story will make everyone hate me at first. I 104 00:06:17,276 --> 00:06:20,636 Speaker 2: also hate the version of myself that wasn't grateful this day. 105 00:06:20,916 --> 00:06:21,236 Speaker 4: Okay. 106 00:06:21,236 --> 00:06:25,516 Speaker 2: With that said, So I'm in Miami and my boss 107 00:06:25,516 --> 00:06:26,836 Speaker 2: will call me and they're like, we need to take 108 00:06:26,836 --> 00:06:28,676 Speaker 2: a photo of you, like a professional photo of you 109 00:06:29,076 --> 00:06:31,836 Speaker 2: to illustrate this story that you wrote. Part of me 110 00:06:31,996 --> 00:06:35,276 Speaker 2: was obviously like wooho, like my Carrie Bradshaw moment. You 111 00:06:35,276 --> 00:06:38,236 Speaker 2: know I'm gonna be photographed, and then I kind of 112 00:06:38,276 --> 00:06:42,596 Speaker 2: started to freak out. I hate having my photo taken. 113 00:06:42,916 --> 00:06:44,756 Speaker 2: There's just something about it. I feel like I don't 114 00:06:44,756 --> 00:06:47,716 Speaker 2: look the way I really look in photos. And I 115 00:06:47,756 --> 00:06:50,356 Speaker 2: also hadn't gotten a haircut in a while. So I 116 00:06:50,436 --> 00:06:53,636 Speaker 2: go and I book a hair appointment and I kind 117 00:06:53,676 --> 00:06:55,636 Speaker 2: of don't describe what I want very well, which was 118 00:06:55,676 --> 00:06:59,956 Speaker 2: on me, and she cuts it into probably the worst 119 00:06:59,956 --> 00:07:03,916 Speaker 2: haircut I've ever gotten outside of like a supercuts. 120 00:07:04,276 --> 00:07:06,636 Speaker 1: Can you just describe it just for listeners, like, what 121 00:07:06,676 --> 00:07:07,316 Speaker 1: does it look like? 122 00:07:07,516 --> 00:07:09,916 Speaker 2: It looked like an avant garde mush. I think she 123 00:07:10,076 --> 00:07:12,796 Speaker 2: was going for like a layered almost like a Rachel 124 00:07:12,916 --> 00:07:15,716 Speaker 2: from Friends type thing, except my hair doesn't do that, 125 00:07:15,996 --> 00:07:19,156 Speaker 2: and so it just looked strange. So on top of 126 00:07:19,156 --> 00:07:20,556 Speaker 2: time to get my phototaken, I have to get my 127 00:07:20,596 --> 00:07:24,916 Speaker 2: phototaken with awful hair. Miami, for all its positive qualities, 128 00:07:25,356 --> 00:07:27,956 Speaker 2: a lot of traffic. Hard to find this photo studio. 129 00:07:28,716 --> 00:07:31,436 Speaker 2: There's no parking because there's never parking. The first thing 130 00:07:31,476 --> 00:07:33,996 Speaker 2: the photographer says is, do you want to fix your hair? 131 00:07:34,916 --> 00:07:37,356 Speaker 2: There's this's a specific type of photo which I have 132 00:07:37,436 --> 00:07:40,716 Speaker 2: to look very serious and not smiling, and they want 133 00:07:40,756 --> 00:07:42,516 Speaker 2: it to be a profile photo. 134 00:07:43,316 --> 00:07:44,556 Speaker 4: I do not like. 135 00:07:44,556 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 2: Having profile photos taken of me. I'm like just getting 136 00:07:48,236 --> 00:07:50,316 Speaker 2: like more and more clenched. Is this is all happening? 137 00:07:50,836 --> 00:07:51,676 Speaker 4: Whatever? That's over? 138 00:07:52,316 --> 00:07:56,236 Speaker 2: I drive on into Miami. I take a wrong turn 139 00:07:56,276 --> 00:07:58,476 Speaker 2: because I'm a terrible driver, and end up like having 140 00:07:58,476 --> 00:08:03,796 Speaker 2: to circumnavigate this little cruise ship launching island. It takes forever. 141 00:08:04,076 --> 00:08:06,956 Speaker 2: My boss is like slacking me about other things. My 142 00:08:07,076 --> 00:08:09,436 Speaker 2: mom is flying in that night and I have to 143 00:08:09,476 --> 00:08:13,276 Speaker 2: go get groceries for her at the grocery store. This 144 00:08:13,356 --> 00:08:16,356 Speaker 2: is again a very small thing, but the shopping cart 145 00:08:16,996 --> 00:08:20,996 Speaker 2: locks on my way to my car to load the groceries, 146 00:08:21,156 --> 00:08:23,796 Speaker 2: so I have to like drag the shopping cart full 147 00:08:23,836 --> 00:08:26,836 Speaker 2: of groceries across the parking lot. So I get home 148 00:08:27,116 --> 00:08:31,556 Speaker 2: and I just melted down. I was like crying, wailing, 149 00:08:32,196 --> 00:08:35,116 Speaker 2: chugging wine, just like I need to get to a 150 00:08:35,156 --> 00:08:36,796 Speaker 2: place of calm, and I have no idea how to 151 00:08:36,836 --> 00:08:40,636 Speaker 2: do it. Telling my husband I don't want kids because 152 00:08:40,636 --> 00:08:42,956 Speaker 2: I can't handle kids obviously because I can't even handle 153 00:08:43,036 --> 00:08:47,396 Speaker 2: like Miami on a frustrating day. Yeah, I was having 154 00:08:47,436 --> 00:08:50,316 Speaker 2: this connection and that is sort of what launched the 155 00:08:50,316 --> 00:08:50,756 Speaker 2: whole thing. 156 00:08:51,516 --> 00:08:54,036 Speaker 1: So would you say, then, based on the scenario, just 157 00:08:54,076 --> 00:08:59,196 Speaker 1: describe that the trait you most identified with was neuroticism. 158 00:08:59,516 --> 00:09:01,476 Speaker 1: Was that the thing that you were finding to be 159 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:02,396 Speaker 1: the most challenging. 160 00:09:03,036 --> 00:09:04,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was definitely the one that in day to 161 00:09:04,956 --> 00:09:08,036 Speaker 2: day life, I felt like was holding me back from 162 00:09:08,396 --> 00:09:11,236 Speaker 2: enjoying life the most. There are a million ways to 163 00:09:11,316 --> 00:09:15,116 Speaker 2: have interpreted that day, and I chose the worst possible interpretation, 164 00:09:15,596 --> 00:09:19,516 Speaker 2: and that really is neuroticism. It's like seeing threats, seeing 165 00:09:19,596 --> 00:09:23,356 Speaker 2: bad things, being anxious, being depressed. That's what the trade 166 00:09:23,356 --> 00:09:25,476 Speaker 2: of neuroticism is all about. And I was like, wow, 167 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:29,436 Speaker 2: this trait is why I have days like this, meaning 168 00:09:29,436 --> 00:09:31,196 Speaker 2: I interpret days like today in this way. 169 00:09:32,036 --> 00:09:35,156 Speaker 1: So you have this experience with the mushroom haircut and 170 00:09:35,796 --> 00:09:38,316 Speaker 1: the photo shoot gone wrong and then everything else going 171 00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:40,196 Speaker 1: wrong that day, and you said that was kind of 172 00:09:40,196 --> 00:09:43,276 Speaker 1: your like come to Jesus moment, right, Okay, things, something 173 00:09:43,356 --> 00:09:47,396 Speaker 1: needs to change because I'm actively self sabotaging my happiness 174 00:09:47,596 --> 00:09:51,156 Speaker 1: or like what could be happiness in most moments of life. Yes, 175 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:56,476 Speaker 1: what first gave you the idea that personality change was 176 00:09:56,556 --> 00:09:57,516 Speaker 1: even a possibility? 177 00:09:57,956 --> 00:10:00,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is some research that I came across. 178 00:10:00,836 --> 00:10:04,036 Speaker 2: It showed that personality can change through things like behaviors, 179 00:10:04,076 --> 00:10:07,796 Speaker 2: just stuff you do every day, small things, small habits 180 00:10:08,276 --> 00:10:11,116 Speaker 2: that can actually alter the way you think about the world, 181 00:10:11,516 --> 00:10:13,156 Speaker 2: the things you like to do, the things you end 182 00:10:13,236 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 2: up doing. And I was like, huh, that's kind of 183 00:10:16,356 --> 00:10:20,596 Speaker 2: interesting because though neuroticism was probably my biggest problem, it 184 00:10:20,636 --> 00:10:23,676 Speaker 2: wasn't my only problem. And I felt like a personality 185 00:10:23,676 --> 00:10:26,636 Speaker 2: overhaul was sort of an effective way to get at 186 00:10:26,716 --> 00:10:28,556 Speaker 2: all of the stuff I was struggling with at the time. 187 00:10:29,676 --> 00:10:32,716 Speaker 1: So you have this realization, Okay, personality can change, right, 188 00:10:32,756 --> 00:10:34,956 Speaker 1: I'm seeing that in the research. Now I'm going to 189 00:10:34,956 --> 00:10:38,996 Speaker 1: embark on a journey to better understand personality and understand 190 00:10:38,996 --> 00:10:40,996 Speaker 1: what levers are at my disposal so I can in 191 00:10:41,036 --> 00:10:44,916 Speaker 1: fact change it. And I loved learning about the history 192 00:10:44,916 --> 00:10:49,276 Speaker 1: of personality science, especially because researchers had been a bit 193 00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:52,436 Speaker 1: all over the place right historically, I'm like, what is personality? 194 00:10:52,436 --> 00:10:55,436 Speaker 1: What's the best way to test it? Can you tell 195 00:10:55,476 --> 00:10:59,716 Speaker 1: me about the first researcher who essentially put forth the 196 00:10:59,756 --> 00:11:06,116 Speaker 1: idea of personality traits, these distinct features that we each carry. Yeah. 197 00:11:06,156 --> 00:11:09,796 Speaker 2: So this was Gordon Allport, and he was sort of 198 00:11:10,076 --> 00:11:14,116 Speaker 2: reacting to Freud and a lot of previous researchers who 199 00:11:14,156 --> 00:11:18,796 Speaker 2: were just kind of like making stuff up, like you know, 200 00:11:18,916 --> 00:11:21,556 Speaker 2: people must secretly want to have sex with their moms 201 00:11:21,636 --> 00:11:25,076 Speaker 2: and that's personality. And he's like, no, let's like actually 202 00:11:25,156 --> 00:11:28,316 Speaker 2: just see what what are some of the ways we 203 00:11:28,356 --> 00:11:31,356 Speaker 2: describe people? Maybe that's personality. So he sat down and 204 00:11:31,356 --> 00:11:33,276 Speaker 2: he looked through the dictionary and he just made a 205 00:11:33,316 --> 00:11:36,156 Speaker 2: list of adjectives that can be used to describe people. 206 00:11:36,636 --> 00:11:38,116 Speaker 2: And some of them were kind of out there, like 207 00:11:38,196 --> 00:11:40,756 Speaker 2: airy and zestful or two of them, which like, I 208 00:11:40,796 --> 00:11:43,236 Speaker 2: don't think you describe anyone as like zestful. And so 209 00:11:43,596 --> 00:11:46,956 Speaker 2: he had a huge list of thousands of traits. Researchers 210 00:11:46,996 --> 00:11:50,316 Speaker 2: eventually just winnowed down through those and they narrowed all 211 00:11:50,316 --> 00:11:53,116 Speaker 2: of those traits, all those synonyms, down to five big traits. 212 00:11:53,636 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 1: Can you walk me through the big five traits and 213 00:11:55,796 --> 00:11:56,556 Speaker 1: what each of them are? 214 00:11:56,956 --> 00:11:57,236 Speaker 4: Sure? 215 00:11:57,396 --> 00:12:00,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, The Big five traits can be remembered with the 216 00:12:00,316 --> 00:12:04,956 Speaker 2: acronym ocean. The first's openness to experiences, which is sort 217 00:12:04,996 --> 00:12:11,836 Speaker 2: of imaginativeness and creativity, political liberalism. Also in their conscientiousness, 218 00:12:11,876 --> 00:12:15,876 Speaker 2: which is getting stuff done, being on time, meeting deadlines, 219 00:12:16,116 --> 00:12:21,316 Speaker 2: being organized, extraversion, which is being cheerful, having a lot 220 00:12:21,356 --> 00:12:26,116 Speaker 2: going on, just being really busy, and being a people person. Agreeableness, 221 00:12:26,156 --> 00:12:28,556 Speaker 2: which is also being a people person, but more in 222 00:12:28,676 --> 00:12:31,956 Speaker 2: like a warm, empathetic way. So you might not have 223 00:12:31,996 --> 00:12:35,796 Speaker 2: a ton of friends, but you're just so close with 224 00:12:35,916 --> 00:12:38,676 Speaker 2: the ones that you do have, and like you're just 225 00:12:38,716 --> 00:12:42,796 Speaker 2: a super nice, sweet angel person. And then neuroticism is 226 00:12:43,076 --> 00:12:46,836 Speaker 2: basically anxiety and depression. Okay, the flip side of neuroticism 227 00:12:46,876 --> 00:12:49,876 Speaker 2: is emotional stability, and that's the one that you do want. 228 00:12:50,116 --> 00:12:51,156 Speaker 2: That's a good thing. 229 00:12:51,516 --> 00:12:56,796 Speaker 1: So is it fair to say, like neuroticism is bad, 230 00:12:57,156 --> 00:12:59,596 Speaker 1: Like is that what the personality scientists are saying, Then 231 00:13:00,236 --> 00:13:03,676 Speaker 1: if they're saying the flip side is emotional stability, right right, right, 232 00:13:03,956 --> 00:13:07,676 Speaker 1: Like extraversion introversion. Okay, we've got pros and cons to both, 233 00:13:07,756 --> 00:13:11,196 Speaker 1: but like neuroticism versus emotional stability. 234 00:13:11,716 --> 00:13:16,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, so generally neuroticism is considered bad and all of 235 00:13:16,396 --> 00:13:18,916 Speaker 2: those other ones that I mentioned those other four higher 236 00:13:18,996 --> 00:13:22,876 Speaker 2: levels of those are considered good. They tend to correlate 237 00:13:22,916 --> 00:13:26,676 Speaker 2: with well being. At the same time, you don't want 238 00:13:26,716 --> 00:13:30,516 Speaker 2: to be too high on them or like just off 239 00:13:30,556 --> 00:13:34,476 Speaker 2: the charts high. So conscientiousness is a good example. Conscientiousness 240 00:13:34,556 --> 00:13:39,676 Speaker 2: is correlated with longevity, making more money, being healthier. But 241 00:13:39,716 --> 00:13:42,236 Speaker 2: if you think about people who are just super duper 242 00:13:42,316 --> 00:13:45,716 Speaker 2: detail oriented, that can start to be like obsessive compulsive 243 00:13:45,716 --> 00:13:49,316 Speaker 2: disorder almost sure, so you kind of want to stop 244 00:13:49,356 --> 00:13:50,836 Speaker 2: short of those extremes. 245 00:13:51,076 --> 00:13:53,796 Speaker 1: I mean, the reason I asked too, is that I 246 00:13:53,796 --> 00:13:56,556 Speaker 1: think we can argue that there's many benefits to being 247 00:13:56,876 --> 00:14:00,916 Speaker 1: a bit neurotic right in everyday life. And more importantly, 248 00:14:00,996 --> 00:14:04,556 Speaker 1: I think this raises a more philosophical question about how 249 00:14:04,596 --> 00:14:07,396 Speaker 1: we gauge whether personality traits are quote good or bad, 250 00:14:07,476 --> 00:14:10,876 Speaker 1: which is, should we be only solving for well being 251 00:14:10,876 --> 00:14:14,116 Speaker 1: and happiness on an individual level. I mean, I'm certain 252 00:14:14,236 --> 00:14:18,676 Speaker 1: that Beethoven was highly neurotic and his artistic contributions to 253 00:14:18,716 --> 00:14:20,156 Speaker 1: the world were profound. 254 00:14:20,436 --> 00:14:21,996 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. 255 00:14:22,276 --> 00:14:26,316 Speaker 1: It just raises an interesting question of again, what we're 256 00:14:26,316 --> 00:14:28,516 Speaker 1: solving for, Like what's the north star? Is it for? 257 00:14:28,596 --> 00:14:30,956 Speaker 1: Every human to be maximally happy, or is it for 258 00:14:30,996 --> 00:14:34,356 Speaker 1: every human to live kind of a rich life full 259 00:14:34,396 --> 00:14:38,236 Speaker 1: of varied emotions. And then on a societal level, couldn't 260 00:14:38,236 --> 00:14:41,236 Speaker 1: we argue that society flourishes when it has this mixing 261 00:14:41,276 --> 00:14:44,156 Speaker 1: pot of different personality types that were just better off 262 00:14:44,716 --> 00:14:48,876 Speaker 1: when there is that diversity kind of built in. I 263 00:14:48,916 --> 00:14:53,196 Speaker 1: do wonder were you worried that trying to change your 264 00:14:53,236 --> 00:14:57,876 Speaker 1: personality kind of overall might impede aspects of the traits 265 00:14:57,956 --> 00:14:59,036 Speaker 1: you actually wanted to preserve. 266 00:14:59,716 --> 00:15:04,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was always this element of striving in anxiety, 267 00:15:04,156 --> 00:15:07,916 Speaker 2: Like I'm nervous and you know, I'm worried, but I'm 268 00:15:07,956 --> 00:15:11,236 Speaker 2: also trying to do better. I'm trying to do well, 269 00:15:11,636 --> 00:15:13,796 Speaker 2: and I think part of me was a little reluctant 270 00:15:13,836 --> 00:15:16,276 Speaker 2: to give up on the anxiety because I worried that 271 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:18,236 Speaker 2: it would mean that I was no longer trying to 272 00:15:18,316 --> 00:15:18,756 Speaker 2: do well. 273 00:15:19,756 --> 00:15:22,436 Speaker 1: Also, that's what gives life meaning and purpose, right, and 274 00:15:22,476 --> 00:15:23,916 Speaker 1: like gets you out of that in the morning is 275 00:15:24,276 --> 00:15:25,956 Speaker 1: some feeling of striving. 276 00:15:26,076 --> 00:15:26,956 Speaker 4: Right exactly. 277 00:15:27,196 --> 00:15:30,876 Speaker 2: I think reading those studies and seeing that they worked 278 00:15:30,916 --> 00:15:33,396 Speaker 2: for people gave me hope that I could do it too, 279 00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:36,556 Speaker 2: because I did think, Okay, if I'm actually able to 280 00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:39,356 Speaker 2: change my personality, that could make my life better. 281 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:44,756 Speaker 1: After the break, Olga gets to work, and let's just 282 00:15:44,836 --> 00:15:46,596 Speaker 1: say it's not without pain. 283 00:15:46,996 --> 00:15:49,436 Speaker 2: I just was like, I don't want to do this. 284 00:15:49,556 --> 00:15:51,156 Speaker 2: I want to just jump out of my skin and 285 00:15:51,276 --> 00:15:52,116 Speaker 2: run out the front door. 286 00:15:52,796 --> 00:16:02,916 Speaker 1: That's after the break. On a slight change of plans, 287 00:16:03,996 --> 00:16:08,396 Speaker 1: Olga gave herself one year to change her personality. Her 288 00:16:08,436 --> 00:16:13,796 Speaker 1: goal to become more extroverted, more agreeable, and less neurotic. 289 00:16:14,796 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 1: Olga found in her research that even small changes a 290 00:16:17,836 --> 00:16:21,036 Speaker 1: person makes in their daily lives can alter the way 291 00:16:21,076 --> 00:16:22,196 Speaker 1: they engage with the world. 292 00:16:22,876 --> 00:16:26,236 Speaker 2: So I signed up for improv, I signed up for sailing, 293 00:16:26,956 --> 00:16:29,036 Speaker 2: I sign up for a bunch of meetup groups that 294 00:16:29,116 --> 00:16:31,756 Speaker 2: went like hiking and other stuff. I just tried to 295 00:16:31,796 --> 00:16:34,076 Speaker 2: get out as much as possible. And so for each 296 00:16:34,116 --> 00:16:36,156 Speaker 2: of the trades I basically went through and made like 297 00:16:36,196 --> 00:16:39,676 Speaker 2: a little curriculum for myself. 298 00:16:39,916 --> 00:16:42,556 Speaker 1: Let's talk about improv. That sounds like my worst nightmare. 299 00:16:42,636 --> 00:16:45,556 Speaker 1: So tell me about that first day of class, and 300 00:16:45,756 --> 00:16:47,436 Speaker 1: like just set a scene for me of what it 301 00:16:47,476 --> 00:16:52,236 Speaker 1: was like for Olga. Who's there for like really non 302 00:16:52,276 --> 00:16:55,716 Speaker 1: traditional reasons, Right, You're like, I'm actually here because I'm 303 00:16:55,716 --> 00:16:58,596 Speaker 1: trying to overhaul my personality and I would really like 304 00:16:58,716 --> 00:17:02,876 Speaker 1: to be slightly more extroverted, which is a hilarious premise 305 00:17:02,956 --> 00:17:04,556 Speaker 1: for joining an improv class. 306 00:17:04,716 --> 00:17:08,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was not there for the right reasons to 307 00:17:08,916 --> 00:17:13,236 Speaker 2: you the reality to Yeah, so yeah, I signed up, 308 00:17:13,236 --> 00:17:14,996 Speaker 2: and I have to say that I was like, I'll 309 00:17:15,036 --> 00:17:16,916 Speaker 2: just deal with the fact that this is my worst 310 00:17:16,956 --> 00:17:18,676 Speaker 2: night merit later. Like I kind of just put it 311 00:17:18,676 --> 00:17:20,196 Speaker 2: off and put it off, and then suddenly it was 312 00:17:20,196 --> 00:17:21,996 Speaker 2: the day. It was the day of the improv class, 313 00:17:22,636 --> 00:17:24,596 Speaker 2: and I was like, Okay, I'm actually gonna go. I 314 00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:26,676 Speaker 2: hate performing in front of other people. I hate people 315 00:17:26,676 --> 00:17:31,036 Speaker 2: looking at me, I hate being silly. So I'm driving there. 316 00:17:31,116 --> 00:17:34,196 Speaker 2: It's an hour long drive, and I'm kind of getting 317 00:17:34,236 --> 00:17:37,596 Speaker 2: mentally prepared and like whatever, it's not a big deal. 318 00:17:38,116 --> 00:17:40,396 Speaker 2: Just be cool, you know, all the stuff that doesn't 319 00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:41,036 Speaker 2: really work. 320 00:17:40,916 --> 00:17:41,396 Speaker 1: For me at all. 321 00:17:42,876 --> 00:17:45,996 Speaker 2: And so we like sit around in a circle and 322 00:17:46,796 --> 00:17:50,756 Speaker 2: she does intros, introduce yourself, have you done improv before? 323 00:17:51,676 --> 00:17:54,316 Speaker 2: Like how long can we like draw out these intros 324 00:17:54,356 --> 00:17:56,676 Speaker 2: so that we don't actually have to do any improv 325 00:17:56,676 --> 00:17:59,596 Speaker 2: on the first day. And then she's like, okay, let's 326 00:17:59,596 --> 00:18:02,316 Speaker 2: get started, and I just had this extreme feeling of 327 00:18:02,356 --> 00:18:05,676 Speaker 2: wanting to die, like I just want to not exist, 328 00:18:06,436 --> 00:18:08,156 Speaker 2: because I just really didn't want to do it. I 329 00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:10,476 Speaker 2: was like, I don't want to do this. I want 330 00:18:10,516 --> 00:18:11,996 Speaker 2: to just jump out of my skin and run out 331 00:18:12,036 --> 00:18:15,236 Speaker 2: the front door. But I did not do that. I 332 00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:21,436 Speaker 2: stayed there, and I improvised a bus stop conversation with 333 00:18:21,476 --> 00:18:28,836 Speaker 2: someone else, and I improvised being a purchaser of sulfuric acid. 334 00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:30,716 Speaker 1: Wow, what else? 335 00:18:31,476 --> 00:18:34,796 Speaker 4: Yeah, I would not be impressed. Actually, the fact that 336 00:18:34,876 --> 00:18:35,396 Speaker 4: you did. 337 00:18:35,196 --> 00:18:37,516 Speaker 1: It at all. I mean, I don't even care about quality. 338 00:18:38,716 --> 00:18:40,836 Speaker 1: Just the mere fact you didn't dissolve into a puddle 339 00:18:40,836 --> 00:18:43,916 Speaker 1: on the ground is like applause worthy in my opinion. 340 00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:44,276 Speaker 4: Thank you. 341 00:18:44,636 --> 00:18:48,236 Speaker 1: Yeah. So how long did you participate in these classes, 342 00:18:48,356 --> 00:18:51,596 Speaker 1: these improv classes? And then were you noticing changes over time? 343 00:18:52,556 --> 00:18:55,636 Speaker 2: I did improv for probably about a year all told. 344 00:18:56,116 --> 00:18:59,876 Speaker 2: The dread was there almost every time for the first 345 00:19:00,836 --> 00:19:04,236 Speaker 2: five or six months. But what I started noticing over 346 00:19:04,276 --> 00:19:07,316 Speaker 2: time is that invariably I felt really happy afterward. 347 00:19:07,636 --> 00:19:08,956 Speaker 4: It was just like a mood boost. 348 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:12,316 Speaker 2: For whatever reason, being really silly with other people with 349 00:19:12,396 --> 00:19:16,436 Speaker 2: no expectation of performance in a good way. There's no 350 00:19:16,516 --> 00:19:19,356 Speaker 2: expectation that what we did was good. That was really 351 00:19:19,396 --> 00:19:21,796 Speaker 2: freeing for me, and it was just like really fun. 352 00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:23,636 Speaker 2: It was like what people talk about when they talk 353 00:19:23,636 --> 00:19:27,316 Speaker 2: about having fun, which is just like being silly and 354 00:19:27,396 --> 00:19:28,996 Speaker 2: playful for a few hours. 355 00:19:29,556 --> 00:19:34,116 Speaker 1: So you actually found yourself enjoying it. Maybe it's too 356 00:19:34,156 --> 00:19:35,876 Speaker 1: far to say you were looking you looked forward to 357 00:19:35,876 --> 00:19:38,436 Speaker 1: the classes, right, I did not look forward to that, 358 00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:41,076 Speaker 1: but you found it less painful over time. 359 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:43,436 Speaker 2: So this is still my thing with extroversion is that 360 00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:44,956 Speaker 2: I'm still like, oh, I don't want to go. I 361 00:19:44,996 --> 00:19:47,236 Speaker 2: don't want to go. Maybe I should just cancel, maybe 362 00:19:47,236 --> 00:19:49,836 Speaker 2: I should just bow out. And then I'm there and 363 00:19:49,876 --> 00:19:52,916 Speaker 2: I like slowly warm up over time to whatever the 364 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:56,516 Speaker 2: situation is improv but even you know, a party mixer, 365 00:19:56,756 --> 00:19:59,436 Speaker 2: happy hour or whatever, I'm there. It gets better over 366 00:19:59,476 --> 00:20:03,716 Speaker 2: time and I'm happy after it ends, I'm like, oh, 367 00:20:03,756 --> 00:20:05,636 Speaker 2: that was really cool, that was really neat. That was 368 00:20:05,756 --> 00:20:07,916 Speaker 2: nice to catch up with them, you know what have you. 369 00:20:08,036 --> 00:20:09,876 Speaker 2: And there's studies on this too that show that like 370 00:20:09,956 --> 00:20:12,476 Speaker 2: hardened introverts will be like I'm not going to socialize. 371 00:20:12,476 --> 00:20:13,476 Speaker 4: I'm not going to socialize. 372 00:20:13,676 --> 00:20:15,796 Speaker 2: Then the researcher is like, go socialize for a couple 373 00:20:15,796 --> 00:20:18,036 Speaker 2: of minutes, just do it, and then they do it 374 00:20:18,076 --> 00:20:20,356 Speaker 2: and then they feel better afterwards. Yeah and that Yeah, 375 00:20:20,396 --> 00:20:21,636 Speaker 2: that's exactly what happened to me. 376 00:20:21,836 --> 00:20:23,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that research. It's so compelling. It's like 377 00:20:23,876 --> 00:20:25,556 Speaker 1: people are like, there's no way I'd want to talk 378 00:20:25,596 --> 00:20:27,276 Speaker 1: to the stranger, and then they talk to the stranger 379 00:20:27,276 --> 00:20:29,036 Speaker 1: and it's like that was the best moment of their 380 00:20:29,116 --> 00:20:32,156 Speaker 1: day having that interaction. So you mentioned a couple of 381 00:20:32,196 --> 00:20:35,716 Speaker 1: things that you tried in order to boost extraversions, so sailing, 382 00:20:35,996 --> 00:20:40,956 Speaker 1: these improv classes, other activities. When it came to boosting agreeableness, 383 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:43,756 Speaker 1: this one was really surprising to me because you actually 384 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:47,516 Speaker 1: took an anger management class, and I wouldn't naturally have thought, oh, 385 00:20:47,596 --> 00:20:52,516 Speaker 1: the soul for agreeableness is managing anger. But then when 386 00:20:52,516 --> 00:20:54,716 Speaker 1: I was thinking about your definition, right, you talked about 387 00:20:54,756 --> 00:20:57,276 Speaker 1: it as being about human empathy, right, Like, it's about 388 00:20:58,316 --> 00:21:01,196 Speaker 1: exercising that empathy in moments you have maybe more compassion 389 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:04,156 Speaker 1: for others, And so I can understand then the connection 390 00:21:04,316 --> 00:21:06,756 Speaker 1: to anger. You want to limit the frustration that you 391 00:21:06,836 --> 00:21:09,516 Speaker 1: have in response to other people, thus made making you 392 00:21:09,956 --> 00:21:12,076 Speaker 1: more agreeable. Is that the right way to think about it? 393 00:21:12,596 --> 00:21:15,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And I mean one thing that did come 394 00:21:15,756 --> 00:21:20,796 Speaker 2: through consistently is that as we all noticed opportunities in 395 00:21:20,836 --> 00:21:23,356 Speaker 2: our lives to have more empathy for people that made 396 00:21:23,436 --> 00:21:26,916 Speaker 2: us mad, we became less mad at them. Like one 397 00:21:26,956 --> 00:21:29,756 Speaker 2: of my classmates said she was always mad at a 398 00:21:29,756 --> 00:21:32,836 Speaker 2: friend who was always late, and then the friend told 399 00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:35,236 Speaker 2: her that she's always late because she's always checking to 400 00:21:35,316 --> 00:21:38,076 Speaker 2: unplug all of her appliances around her house because she 401 00:21:38,116 --> 00:21:40,956 Speaker 2: had been in a house fire, and so she was like, oh, man, 402 00:21:41,076 --> 00:21:43,156 Speaker 2: like okay, I could totally see that, I could totally 403 00:21:43,196 --> 00:21:44,596 Speaker 2: see why you would do that and that would make 404 00:21:44,596 --> 00:21:47,516 Speaker 2: you late. Yeah, And that kind of just stopped her 405 00:21:47,556 --> 00:21:49,716 Speaker 2: anger at her friend. And that happened to me on 406 00:21:49,916 --> 00:21:53,076 Speaker 2: different levels with a lot of different things, including anger 407 00:21:53,116 --> 00:21:55,276 Speaker 2: that I had at my husband over various things. 408 00:21:56,116 --> 00:21:59,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, there were two techniques that you talked about coming 409 00:21:59,156 --> 00:22:01,196 Speaker 1: from the anger management classes that I thought were super 410 00:22:01,236 --> 00:22:03,436 Speaker 1: interesting things to kind of be aware of that were 411 00:22:03,436 --> 00:22:06,116 Speaker 1: sort of subconsciously doing in day to day life that 412 00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:08,716 Speaker 1: if we were to be more aware and reframe things, 413 00:22:08,796 --> 00:22:11,556 Speaker 1: it could help increase our agreeableness. So can you tell 414 00:22:11,596 --> 00:22:13,076 Speaker 1: me about inflammatory labeling? 415 00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:16,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is something I mean that we all do. 416 00:22:16,716 --> 00:22:18,756 Speaker 2: You're not a rage aholic if you do this, But 417 00:22:18,956 --> 00:22:21,716 Speaker 2: people who tend to get angrier than others tend to 418 00:22:21,756 --> 00:22:24,356 Speaker 2: do this a little more inflammatory labeling is sort of 419 00:22:24,356 --> 00:22:28,436 Speaker 2: referring to situations more negatively than is realistic. So if 420 00:22:28,476 --> 00:22:32,396 Speaker 2: a coworker makes an innocent mistake, you say, like, that 421 00:22:32,436 --> 00:22:34,796 Speaker 2: guy's a total idiot. You know, you're just kind of 422 00:22:34,836 --> 00:22:37,836 Speaker 2: writing off the things that people do in this very 423 00:22:37,996 --> 00:22:41,116 Speaker 2: negative way, and that actually makes you angrier. Like that 424 00:22:41,156 --> 00:22:45,316 Speaker 2: doesn't help you understand that person or help you explain 425 00:22:45,316 --> 00:22:47,956 Speaker 2: their behavior. It just you're like, yeah, that idiot and 426 00:22:47,996 --> 00:22:50,156 Speaker 2: I have to work with him, Like you know, you 427 00:22:50,356 --> 00:22:52,716 Speaker 2: kind of just get more and more frustrated. And so 428 00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:55,956 Speaker 2: the recommendation there is actually just I mean, I know 429 00:22:55,996 --> 00:22:58,596 Speaker 2: it's hard, but like, don't do that. Don't try to 430 00:22:58,956 --> 00:23:02,996 Speaker 2: read into the motivations behind people's behavior. Maybe they're not 431 00:23:03,036 --> 00:23:05,916 Speaker 2: an idiot, maybe they're having a really busy day. I mean, 432 00:23:05,996 --> 00:23:08,676 Speaker 2: I know it's like a new parent. I honestly seem 433 00:23:08,756 --> 00:23:10,996 Speaker 2: probably really dumb to people a lot of the time. 434 00:23:12,556 --> 00:23:15,236 Speaker 2: But it's honestly just because I'm really tired, and so 435 00:23:15,316 --> 00:23:17,676 Speaker 2: I'm sure that like I've made people mad by just 436 00:23:18,156 --> 00:23:20,996 Speaker 2: I've like misspelled my name at the doctor's office. But like, 437 00:23:22,116 --> 00:23:23,636 Speaker 2: I'm just honestly really tired. 438 00:23:23,956 --> 00:23:26,916 Speaker 4: I'm not sure, you know. So, yeah, I'm just remembering that, you. 439 00:23:26,836 --> 00:23:29,556 Speaker 2: Know, there's situational factors behind people's behaviors. 440 00:23:29,756 --> 00:23:31,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, can you give me a concrete example of how 441 00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:35,196 Speaker 1: you might have applied this to your marriage? For example, 442 00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:37,916 Speaker 1: So you talk in the book about using inflammatory labels 443 00:23:37,956 --> 00:23:40,916 Speaker 1: when it came to your husband and your interactions, and 444 00:23:40,916 --> 00:23:42,516 Speaker 1: so what's an example of a time where you try 445 00:23:42,556 --> 00:23:45,636 Speaker 1: to apply like, okay, taking the temperature down and maybe 446 00:23:45,636 --> 00:23:48,716 Speaker 1: not type casting him is a certain way following some 447 00:23:48,756 --> 00:23:50,876 Speaker 1: sort of failure, negligence or what have you. 448 00:23:51,556 --> 00:23:54,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, many many years ago, I noticed that our fridge 449 00:23:54,876 --> 00:23:57,916 Speaker 2: had like seven or eight different mustards in it that 450 00:23:57,956 --> 00:24:00,836 Speaker 2: were all open, and that he had gone to the 451 00:24:00,836 --> 00:24:04,636 Speaker 2: store and bought more mustard. And I got so mad 452 00:24:04,676 --> 00:24:07,036 Speaker 2: at him. I was like, rich, what is the deal 453 00:24:07,076 --> 00:24:09,556 Speaker 2: You're trying to like throw all our money away on ustard? 454 00:24:09,676 --> 00:24:10,836 Speaker 4: You don't care at. 455 00:24:10,756 --> 00:24:13,836 Speaker 2: All about our grocery management, or like, you just don't 456 00:24:13,876 --> 00:24:14,436 Speaker 2: care about me. 457 00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:16,116 Speaker 4: All you want is mustard. 458 00:24:16,396 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 1: You know. 459 00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:19,516 Speaker 2: I was just getting so worked up thinking that he 460 00:24:19,636 --> 00:24:22,556 Speaker 2: was in the grocery store plotting, you know, to like 461 00:24:22,636 --> 00:24:26,516 Speaker 2: overwhelm me with mustard. But really he just forgot, because 462 00:24:26,556 --> 00:24:28,196 Speaker 2: everyone forgets whether they are mustard or not. 463 00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:28,716 Speaker 5: Yeah. 464 00:24:28,996 --> 00:24:31,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's just kind of like reminding yourself 465 00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:33,796 Speaker 2: in those moments. Okay, was he really like, was this 466 00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:37,596 Speaker 2: a you know, malicious mustarding or was this just kind 467 00:24:37,596 --> 00:24:38,476 Speaker 2: of being forgetful? 468 00:24:38,596 --> 00:24:42,036 Speaker 1: Even like, my husband's not a mustard lobbyist, this is 469 00:24:42,676 --> 00:24:45,956 Speaker 1: truly innocent. Another one that I really loved was around 470 00:24:46,156 --> 00:24:48,796 Speaker 1: the expectations that we have of others, reducing them a 471 00:24:48,836 --> 00:24:51,996 Speaker 1: little bit with a slight tweak. So you talk about 472 00:24:51,996 --> 00:24:55,676 Speaker 1: framing things as goals rather than expectations. 473 00:24:56,196 --> 00:24:59,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is something that is useful in particular with 474 00:24:59,916 --> 00:25:02,516 Speaker 2: family members or even like kids, Like a lot of 475 00:25:02,516 --> 00:25:04,636 Speaker 2: the people in anger management were getting mad at their 476 00:25:04,716 --> 00:25:08,076 Speaker 2: kids for not meeting their expectations, and maybe like a 477 00:25:08,236 --> 00:25:11,516 Speaker 2: better way to look at that is as a goal. 478 00:25:11,676 --> 00:25:14,476 Speaker 2: So you know, your goal is for your child to 479 00:25:14,516 --> 00:25:17,156 Speaker 2: have their homework done by a certain time, but an 480 00:25:17,156 --> 00:25:19,556 Speaker 2: expectation is sort of a little bit more rigid, and 481 00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:23,116 Speaker 2: you also get more frustrated when someone doesn't meet your expectations. 482 00:25:23,116 --> 00:25:25,716 Speaker 2: It's literally like the phrase from a performance review, but 483 00:25:25,956 --> 00:25:28,196 Speaker 2: someone missing a goal is sort of like, Okay, well 484 00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:31,116 Speaker 2: we can try again, you know, Okay, let's just practice 485 00:25:31,156 --> 00:25:32,756 Speaker 2: some more and maybe we'll meet it the next time. 486 00:25:32,876 --> 00:25:35,476 Speaker 2: It's just another way of reframing the way you think 487 00:25:35,476 --> 00:25:36,676 Speaker 2: about other people's actions. 488 00:25:37,636 --> 00:25:39,476 Speaker 1: So now let's get to the third trait that you 489 00:25:39,516 --> 00:25:42,956 Speaker 1: tried to change, which was decreasing neuroticism. Right, this is 490 00:25:42,996 --> 00:25:45,356 Speaker 1: the big beast. Tell me about what you tried to 491 00:25:45,356 --> 00:25:47,116 Speaker 1: try to decrease neuroticism. 492 00:25:47,516 --> 00:25:51,596 Speaker 2: So for neuroticism, I tried a lot of stuff, but 493 00:25:51,676 --> 00:25:56,196 Speaker 2: it was mostly meditation, and people don't like to hear 494 00:25:56,236 --> 00:25:59,236 Speaker 2: that because I've found that people do not like meditation, 495 00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:00,716 Speaker 2: especially anxious people. 496 00:26:00,876 --> 00:26:02,636 Speaker 4: They don't want to do it fast. 497 00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:06,276 Speaker 2: And that is, unfortunately like most of what I did. 498 00:26:06,396 --> 00:26:10,396 Speaker 2: I did, okay, different types of meditation. I did guided meditations. 499 00:26:10,516 --> 00:26:14,196 Speaker 2: I meditated in a sensory deprivation tank. But the biggest 500 00:26:14,196 --> 00:26:16,756 Speaker 2: thing I did is I did a meditation class for 501 00:26:16,796 --> 00:26:21,036 Speaker 2: which we meditated for forty five minutes every day, and 502 00:26:21,116 --> 00:26:25,276 Speaker 2: then we did an all day meditation retreat, which was 503 00:26:25,356 --> 00:26:29,396 Speaker 2: not a retreat for me, and we also learned about 504 00:26:29,396 --> 00:26:33,876 Speaker 2: Buddhist concepts and principles, which was probably the most helpful part. 505 00:26:34,596 --> 00:26:38,756 Speaker 1: What concepts in particular did you find resonant. I really 506 00:26:38,836 --> 00:26:43,476 Speaker 1: like the double arrow, which is this idea that if 507 00:26:43,476 --> 00:26:48,036 Speaker 1: something bad happens to you, let's say you miss a deadline, right, 508 00:26:48,716 --> 00:26:51,796 Speaker 1: that you shouldn't then berate yourself from missing the deadline, 509 00:26:51,836 --> 00:26:55,916 Speaker 1: because that's hitting yourself with another arrow, right, that's the 510 00:26:56,036 --> 00:26:58,916 Speaker 1: second arrow of blaming yourself and being mad at yourself. 511 00:26:59,516 --> 00:27:02,516 Speaker 1: So just say, okay, I missed that deadline. You know 512 00:27:02,556 --> 00:27:04,956 Speaker 1: what am I going to do next? And just this 513 00:27:05,076 --> 00:27:07,956 Speaker 1: idea that you don't always have to reprimand yourself or 514 00:27:07,996 --> 00:27:10,596 Speaker 1: punish yourself for things not unfolding the way you would 515 00:27:10,596 --> 00:27:13,316 Speaker 1: like them to have unfolded. That was really freeing for me. 516 00:27:13,756 --> 00:27:17,236 Speaker 2: And weirdly, the other thing that was really helpful was 517 00:27:17,476 --> 00:27:20,076 Speaker 2: that my meditation teacher always said things happen that we 518 00:27:20,156 --> 00:27:24,236 Speaker 2: don't like. And I know that sounds really simple, but 519 00:27:24,556 --> 00:27:27,596 Speaker 2: I had never honestly considered the fact that everyone has 520 00:27:27,676 --> 00:27:29,196 Speaker 2: things that happened to them that they don't like. 521 00:27:30,356 --> 00:27:32,636 Speaker 1: So I'm asking for a friend for those who uh 522 00:27:32,716 --> 00:27:36,916 Speaker 1: don't take to meditation, are there other techniques that they 523 00:27:37,276 --> 00:27:41,716 Speaker 1: or I might use in the neuroticism space. 524 00:27:42,596 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 2: I did do gratitude lists, but I struggled with them 525 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:50,276 Speaker 2: because for whatever reason, or maybe it's just my family, 526 00:27:50,436 --> 00:27:52,276 Speaker 2: but I was kind of always taught that it's not 527 00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:55,756 Speaker 2: good to express gratitude for things that you have in 528 00:27:55,836 --> 00:27:58,636 Speaker 2: an open way because that would mean the fate or 529 00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:01,876 Speaker 2: like the mean Russian god who's always watching, can take 530 00:28:01,916 --> 00:28:02,836 Speaker 2: them away. 531 00:28:02,836 --> 00:28:07,596 Speaker 3: Interesting, Okay, so like we weren't ever supposed to be like, oh, 532 00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:11,556 Speaker 3: thank goodness we have money and savings without like spitting 533 00:28:11,556 --> 00:28:13,436 Speaker 3: over our shoulder and knocking on wood and like all 534 00:28:13,476 --> 00:28:17,236 Speaker 3: this other stuff, because it's like that's tempting fate, right, Okay, 535 00:28:17,596 --> 00:28:19,516 Speaker 3: So for me, it kind of made me a little 536 00:28:19,596 --> 00:28:23,076 Speaker 3: queasy doing that. Although if you're not someone who has 537 00:28:23,116 --> 00:28:26,596 Speaker 3: that response to gratitudeless, I would recommend that as like 538 00:28:26,636 --> 00:28:31,156 Speaker 3: a more cerebral type of exercise to just like boost 539 00:28:31,156 --> 00:28:32,916 Speaker 3: those warm and fuzzies if you're struggling. 540 00:28:32,996 --> 00:28:36,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, the science is so strong here about the boost 541 00:28:36,116 --> 00:28:39,756 Speaker 1: to well being and satisfaction when practicing even just small 542 00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:43,036 Speaker 1: moments of gratitude, right, or like experiencing those moments of 543 00:28:43,076 --> 00:28:45,516 Speaker 1: mindfulness where you're just doing the dishes and you just 544 00:28:45,556 --> 00:28:47,956 Speaker 1: pause for a second and like kind of appreciate the 545 00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:50,236 Speaker 1: stillness or the water on your hands, or something good 546 00:28:50,276 --> 00:28:54,276 Speaker 1: that happened in your day. Because I really struggle with meditation, 547 00:28:54,476 --> 00:28:57,116 Speaker 1: I try to just do more bite sized moments, like 548 00:28:57,116 --> 00:28:59,276 Speaker 1: little meditation snacks I'll call them. 549 00:28:59,676 --> 00:28:59,916 Speaker 4: Yeah. 550 00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:01,796 Speaker 1: Then I try to like sprinkle them throughout my day 551 00:29:01,996 --> 00:29:04,036 Speaker 1: because I just don't have the right temperament. 552 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:04,636 Speaker 4: That totally counts. 553 00:29:04,956 --> 00:29:07,636 Speaker 1: And are there any other interventions you tried in any 554 00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:09,036 Speaker 1: of the buckets that you would want to share? 555 00:29:09,676 --> 00:29:12,156 Speaker 2: Those are the three that I worked on, But there 556 00:29:12,156 --> 00:29:16,356 Speaker 2: were also the two that I did not. I kind 557 00:29:16,356 --> 00:29:18,076 Speaker 2: of had no room to go up because I'm already 558 00:29:18,116 --> 00:29:21,156 Speaker 2: very open and very conscientious. But I will say that 559 00:29:21,196 --> 00:29:24,636 Speaker 2: the thing that seems to work for openness is psychedelics. 560 00:29:25,596 --> 00:29:28,036 Speaker 2: There's like a few things that seem to work for conscientiousness. 561 00:29:28,756 --> 00:29:31,756 Speaker 2: Probably the most interesting one that I came across is 562 00:29:31,796 --> 00:29:35,476 Speaker 2: just decluttering. And I don't mean just like your stuff, 563 00:29:35,556 --> 00:29:40,036 Speaker 2: I mean like obligations, your to do list. Taking a 564 00:29:40,036 --> 00:29:42,636 Speaker 2: more minimalist approach to various things in your life will 565 00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:44,316 Speaker 2: actually allow you to get more done. 566 00:29:44,556 --> 00:29:47,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's also making it more manageable to be 567 00:29:47,836 --> 00:29:49,916 Speaker 1: conscientious in the first place. Right, you have just a 568 00:29:49,956 --> 00:29:53,476 Speaker 1: more limited to do list or schedule as you're trying 569 00:29:53,516 --> 00:29:56,756 Speaker 1: these different interventions. I'm curious, although, like, did certain things 570 00:29:56,756 --> 00:29:58,916 Speaker 1: feel like they were coming more naturally to you? So 571 00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:01,836 Speaker 1: they were things that you you kind of instinctively wanted 572 00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:04,116 Speaker 1: to keep doing, versus things that you felt like you 573 00:30:04,156 --> 00:30:06,916 Speaker 1: were forcing yourself to do for the sake of this project. 574 00:30:07,836 --> 00:30:09,956 Speaker 2: I would say the thing that started coming more naturally 575 00:30:10,036 --> 00:30:13,356 Speaker 2: was extroversion. I started to really like and look forward 576 00:30:13,396 --> 00:30:15,796 Speaker 2: to socializing in a way that I really had never had. 577 00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:18,356 Speaker 2: And I started to really want to go to all 578 00:30:18,356 --> 00:30:20,236 Speaker 2: these activities that I had signed up for with my 579 00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:23,916 Speaker 2: credit card and couldn't back out of. So no, but 580 00:30:23,956 --> 00:30:25,236 Speaker 2: it was actually it was a good thing because I 581 00:30:25,276 --> 00:30:28,156 Speaker 2: was like, oh, man, I actually have you know sailing today, 582 00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:30,196 Speaker 2: and I really want to go. It's not, you know, 583 00:30:30,236 --> 00:30:32,516 Speaker 2: a thing I'm being forced to do. So that's the 584 00:30:32,516 --> 00:30:34,716 Speaker 2: one that I ended up kind of taking to the most. 585 00:30:34,756 --> 00:30:36,036 Speaker 4: I would say, hmmm. 586 00:30:37,036 --> 00:30:39,876 Speaker 1: So this leads me to a a broader question than 587 00:30:39,876 --> 00:30:42,156 Speaker 1: I have about personality. I'm curious to get your thoughts 588 00:30:42,196 --> 00:30:46,236 Speaker 1: on it, which is, should we reduce personality to just 589 00:30:46,396 --> 00:30:50,916 Speaker 1: a set of expressed behaviors or should we be thinking 590 00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:55,236 Speaker 1: about personality in terms more in terms of our internal state, right, 591 00:30:55,316 --> 00:30:57,876 Speaker 1: like how it makes us feel or even what comes 592 00:30:57,876 --> 00:31:00,956 Speaker 1: more naturally to us. So I could see if we're 593 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:03,316 Speaker 1: defining personality in the former way, then a lot of 594 00:31:03,316 --> 00:31:05,716 Speaker 1: these interventions can work because you're just seeing changes in 595 00:31:05,756 --> 00:31:09,356 Speaker 1: behavioral expression. But to really alter your core and to 596 00:31:09,436 --> 00:31:12,596 Speaker 1: feel like there's something natural and organic about it feels 597 00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:16,076 Speaker 1: like a different size of problem to solve than one 598 00:31:16,076 --> 00:31:18,996 Speaker 1: that might be out of reach for these sorts of interventions. 599 00:31:19,956 --> 00:31:22,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, so great question. And the answer to that is 600 00:31:22,596 --> 00:31:27,116 Speaker 2: that different traits work differently along those two metrics, Like 601 00:31:27,276 --> 00:31:29,196 Speaker 2: is it natural versus is it just expressed? 602 00:31:29,436 --> 00:31:30,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me more. So. 603 00:31:30,676 --> 00:31:33,916 Speaker 2: Conscientiousness is one where all you have to do is 604 00:31:34,036 --> 00:31:37,876 Speaker 2: just make the to do lists, set the calendar reminders, 605 00:31:38,276 --> 00:31:41,556 Speaker 2: leave fifteen minutes early, and you will be conscientious. Like 606 00:31:41,716 --> 00:31:46,036 Speaker 2: that is conscientiousness. It is only measured through expressed behaviors 607 00:31:46,556 --> 00:31:48,676 Speaker 2: and that's pretty much all you have to do. And 608 00:31:48,676 --> 00:31:52,316 Speaker 2: that's actually how I became conscientious, Like, I honestly was 609 00:31:52,356 --> 00:31:55,596 Speaker 2: not really detail oriented in high school and in college, 610 00:31:55,716 --> 00:31:58,956 Speaker 2: and I actually just started using technology frankly to just 611 00:31:59,036 --> 00:32:02,516 Speaker 2: remind myself of stuff and it worked. You know, there 612 00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:05,636 Speaker 2: are other traits like neuroticism, which, as you can imagine, 613 00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:08,116 Speaker 2: is more about mindset and how do you approach the 614 00:32:08,116 --> 00:32:10,836 Speaker 2: world and how do you think about things, And that's 615 00:32:10,876 --> 00:32:13,996 Speaker 2: why neuroticism is harder to change. You know, people do therapy, 616 00:32:13,996 --> 00:32:17,796 Speaker 2: they take medication. Those things can change neuroticism, but you know, 617 00:32:17,836 --> 00:32:21,596 Speaker 2: it takes a while and it is trickier in that sense. 618 00:32:21,756 --> 00:32:24,276 Speaker 2: But I will say that once you start doing some 619 00:32:24,396 --> 00:32:27,356 Speaker 2: of these things, even if it doesn't feel natural at first, 620 00:32:27,396 --> 00:32:29,956 Speaker 2: it can start to feel more natural over time. 621 00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:35,196 Speaker 1: You took that baseline personality test at the outset right 622 00:32:35,236 --> 00:32:37,556 Speaker 1: to set, kind of like, okay, here's where I'm beginning, 623 00:32:37,636 --> 00:32:39,916 Speaker 1: and then you tracked personality along the way and you 624 00:32:40,476 --> 00:32:43,556 Speaker 1: took the test repeatedly. What did you find at the end. 625 00:32:43,756 --> 00:32:47,196 Speaker 1: What were the areas where you noticed big changes? 626 00:32:48,196 --> 00:32:51,996 Speaker 2: The biggest changes I noticed were a huge increase in extroversion. 627 00:32:52,356 --> 00:32:54,356 Speaker 2: And that's something that I think has stuck with me, 628 00:32:54,876 --> 00:32:56,876 Speaker 2: and I think is like no longer true of me 629 00:32:56,956 --> 00:32:59,556 Speaker 2: that I'm an introvert. I think, oh, I would not 630 00:32:59,676 --> 00:33:02,996 Speaker 2: really describe myself that way anymore. Anxiety went down a 631 00:33:03,036 --> 00:33:06,276 Speaker 2: little bit, but my depression went down a lot. I 632 00:33:06,436 --> 00:33:10,116 Speaker 2: became a lot less depressed. Not totally sure why, but 633 00:33:10,676 --> 00:33:12,556 Speaker 2: I did a lot of meditation, a lot of like 634 00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:18,076 Speaker 2: loving kindness, reflections of things, and I guess it made 635 00:33:18,116 --> 00:33:22,116 Speaker 2: me less gloomy. And then my component of agreeableness that's 636 00:33:22,236 --> 00:33:25,916 Speaker 2: love and trust in other people went up as well. 637 00:33:26,716 --> 00:33:30,276 Speaker 1: Have the people in your life, Olga, notice meaningful differences 638 00:33:30,276 --> 00:33:31,716 Speaker 1: in you in terms of the way that you engage 639 00:33:31,716 --> 00:33:31,996 Speaker 1: with them. 640 00:33:32,836 --> 00:33:36,036 Speaker 2: I did have some friends say that they noticed that 641 00:33:36,076 --> 00:33:38,476 Speaker 2: I was more up for doing things, like I was 642 00:33:38,956 --> 00:33:42,596 Speaker 2: less reflexively like no, no, no, no no to every invitation. 643 00:33:43,476 --> 00:33:47,356 Speaker 2: My friend Kathy said that I have a healthier relationship 644 00:33:47,396 --> 00:33:50,436 Speaker 2: to work. I get less every time I have a deadline. 645 00:33:50,436 --> 00:33:51,516 Speaker 2: I'm not like, oh my god, oh my god, am 646 00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:52,996 Speaker 2: I going to meet it. I'm a little bit more 647 00:33:53,076 --> 00:33:54,236 Speaker 2: chill about my job. 648 00:33:54,796 --> 00:33:57,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you had the ultimate pressure test recently 649 00:33:57,836 --> 00:33:59,996 Speaker 1: for all of this, which is you had a baby. 650 00:34:00,116 --> 00:34:05,156 Speaker 1: You have an eleven month old now, and man, I mean, 651 00:34:05,156 --> 00:34:08,276 Speaker 1: like your basic needs haven't been met. I'm assuming no, 652 00:34:08,356 --> 00:34:10,436 Speaker 1: I'm not sleeping, you don't have a lot of time 653 00:34:10,436 --> 00:34:14,436 Speaker 1: for yourself, just total overwhelm. And I'm wondering because you 654 00:34:14,436 --> 00:34:16,596 Speaker 1: don't have the cognitive wherewithal like you don't have the 655 00:34:16,636 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 1: bandwidth to actively practice some of these traits or like 656 00:34:21,276 --> 00:34:26,356 Speaker 1: some of these desired behaviors, have you reverted back to 657 00:34:26,396 --> 00:34:29,316 Speaker 1: certain tendencies more than before? Are there other ones that 658 00:34:29,316 --> 00:34:31,836 Speaker 1: have remained quite sticky despite the pressure test. 659 00:34:32,156 --> 00:34:35,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, so having a baby is like rewiring your whole 660 00:34:35,716 --> 00:34:37,676 Speaker 2: personality and everything else in your life. I think with 661 00:34:37,836 --> 00:34:41,556 Speaker 2: extra version, you know, new motherhood can be very lonely, 662 00:34:42,196 --> 00:34:44,596 Speaker 2: and I think the previous version of me would have 663 00:34:44,876 --> 00:34:47,316 Speaker 2: retreated into the loneliness and kind of just tried to 664 00:34:47,316 --> 00:34:49,756 Speaker 2: tough it out on my own. But instead I really 665 00:34:49,796 --> 00:34:52,956 Speaker 2: have tried to reach out more and meet up with people, 666 00:34:53,596 --> 00:34:56,236 Speaker 2: make connections with other new moms, even if it's a 667 00:34:56,276 --> 00:34:59,436 Speaker 2: brief whatever what's that message, or you know, not like 668 00:34:59,476 --> 00:35:03,036 Speaker 2: a bosom friendship, but just sharing experiences or meeting up 669 00:35:03,076 --> 00:35:05,836 Speaker 2: for the like thirty minutes that we have in our. 670 00:35:05,836 --> 00:35:07,276 Speaker 4: Free time and our way. 671 00:35:07,836 --> 00:35:10,556 Speaker 2: You know, I really kind of try to prioritize that 672 00:35:10,716 --> 00:35:14,476 Speaker 2: because I just saw the power so much of interacting 673 00:35:14,516 --> 00:35:17,516 Speaker 2: with other people and socializing, even if it's in short 674 00:35:17,556 --> 00:35:19,796 Speaker 2: little bursts throughout the day. 675 00:35:19,876 --> 00:35:24,916 Speaker 1: How do you think that post experiment Olga would respond 676 00:35:25,076 --> 00:35:28,276 Speaker 1: to the day of the photo shoot. So back in 677 00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:30,836 Speaker 1: the day you came home and you had to melt down, 678 00:35:31,396 --> 00:35:33,956 Speaker 1: you said you were like guzzling wine. How do you 679 00:35:33,996 --> 00:35:36,996 Speaker 1: think you would cope today with that same experience? 680 00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:42,396 Speaker 2: Oh, I just completely differently. First of all, Instakart, those groceries, 681 00:35:42,436 --> 00:35:46,356 Speaker 2: girl liked you got too much going, Like, like, why 682 00:35:46,396 --> 00:35:47,076 Speaker 2: didn't I think of that? 683 00:35:47,116 --> 00:35:47,436 Speaker 4: Anyway? 684 00:35:47,876 --> 00:35:51,036 Speaker 2: Also, okay, don't schedule a haircut for the morning of 685 00:35:51,036 --> 00:35:51,836 Speaker 2: the photoshoot. 686 00:35:51,836 --> 00:35:52,156 Speaker 4: But whatever. 687 00:35:52,196 --> 00:35:54,116 Speaker 2: Okay, let's say you did that. You get there, your 688 00:35:54,116 --> 00:35:58,356 Speaker 2: hair looks bad, the photos look bad. Whatever, nobody cares. 689 00:35:58,836 --> 00:36:01,836 Speaker 2: This was published in the magazine and zero people said 690 00:36:02,156 --> 00:36:05,316 Speaker 2: you look bad. So just whatever, not my favorite photo. 691 00:36:05,396 --> 00:36:08,636 Speaker 2: They got what they wanted. Go back to the airbnb, 692 00:36:09,356 --> 00:36:10,076 Speaker 2: get in the pool. 693 00:36:10,596 --> 00:36:13,436 Speaker 4: Whatever. Yeah, it's you know, I think I would. 694 00:36:13,276 --> 00:36:15,636 Speaker 1: Have just had a completely different reaction and just kind 695 00:36:15,636 --> 00:36:17,676 Speaker 1: of enjoyed it for what it was, like, almost in 696 00:36:17,716 --> 00:36:19,596 Speaker 1: all of its hilarity. I mean, it's hilarious to go 697 00:36:19,796 --> 00:36:21,716 Speaker 1: mushroom cut the day of your big photo shoot. 698 00:36:22,036 --> 00:36:24,476 Speaker 2: Right, It's like an improv show that's going really badly, 699 00:36:24,556 --> 00:36:28,316 Speaker 2: and like people are totally misunderstanding each other and mishearing 700 00:36:28,316 --> 00:36:30,116 Speaker 2: each other. And it's just getting more and more weird 701 00:36:30,156 --> 00:36:33,316 Speaker 2: because no one's on the same wavelength. Sometimes those can 702 00:36:33,356 --> 00:36:36,516 Speaker 2: be like the funniest shows, because yeah, life is like 703 00:36:36,556 --> 00:36:37,356 Speaker 2: that sometimes. 704 00:36:38,116 --> 00:36:40,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. At the end of the day, do you 705 00:36:40,516 --> 00:36:43,596 Speaker 1: feel like you got what you wanted out of the experience, 706 00:36:43,636 --> 00:36:47,316 Speaker 1: that your personality changed in the ways that you'd hoped. 707 00:36:49,756 --> 00:36:53,396 Speaker 2: Yes, I still wish I had completely like nuked my anxiety, 708 00:36:53,876 --> 00:36:57,036 Speaker 2: my like little striver immigrant, like I want to be perfect. 709 00:36:57,316 --> 00:37:01,116 Speaker 2: It's like I wish I was totally not anxious anymore. 710 00:37:02,276 --> 00:37:07,476 Speaker 2: But I aside from that, I am happy with the results. 711 00:37:07,556 --> 00:37:09,756 Speaker 2: I think that it it just made let me see 712 00:37:10,436 --> 00:37:12,756 Speaker 2: myself and the world in a different way. And I 713 00:37:12,756 --> 00:37:14,996 Speaker 2: think it made me just aware of the possibilities that 714 00:37:15,036 --> 00:37:17,076 Speaker 2: are out there and of. 715 00:37:16,476 --> 00:37:18,716 Speaker 4: What can happen when you break out of grooves that 716 00:37:18,716 --> 00:37:19,756 Speaker 4: you've created for yourself. 717 00:37:41,156 --> 00:37:44,076 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Don't forget to check 718 00:37:44,116 --> 00:37:47,396 Speaker 1: out my new and free newsletter Change with Maya Shunker 719 00:37:47,476 --> 00:37:50,996 Speaker 1: on Substack. This week, I took the personality test that 720 00:37:51,036 --> 00:37:53,836 Speaker 1: Olga mentioned. It was super fun and I share my 721 00:37:53,876 --> 00:37:56,476 Speaker 1: results with all of you there. I'll share a link 722 00:37:56,516 --> 00:37:58,436 Speaker 1: to that personality test so that you can try it 723 00:37:58,476 --> 00:38:01,476 Speaker 1: for yourself, and while you're there, please leave a comment 724 00:38:01,596 --> 00:38:03,836 Speaker 1: so I can hear from you about what you learned 725 00:38:03,876 --> 00:38:07,356 Speaker 1: about yourself and maybe what parts of your personality you'd 726 00:38:07,396 --> 00:38:09,516 Speaker 1: like to work on. You can sign up at the 727 00:38:09,516 --> 00:38:11,956 Speaker 1: link in the show notes or go to change with 728 00:38:12,076 --> 00:38:16,116 Speaker 1: Maya dot Com. Join me next time for the first 729 00:38:16,156 --> 00:38:20,156 Speaker 1: episode in our two part series with Amanda Knox, a 730 00:38:20,196 --> 00:38:23,276 Speaker 1: woman who spent years in an Italian prison for a 731 00:38:23,356 --> 00:38:27,756 Speaker 1: murder she did not commit. In part one, we'll revisit 732 00:38:27,836 --> 00:38:31,636 Speaker 1: my twenty twenty one conversation with Amanda. She talks about 733 00:38:31,716 --> 00:38:34,036 Speaker 1: what it was like to return to the US after 734 00:38:34,076 --> 00:38:37,716 Speaker 1: being exonerated and how she struggled to rebuild her life. 735 00:38:38,316 --> 00:38:40,596 Speaker 5: Just because you deserve to be angry doesn't mean that 736 00:38:40,716 --> 00:38:43,156 Speaker 5: it's the thing that's going to make you your best self. 737 00:38:43,916 --> 00:38:47,116 Speaker 5: And I don't want what happened to me to turn 738 00:38:47,156 --> 00:38:49,876 Speaker 5: me into something that is not my best self. I 739 00:38:49,916 --> 00:38:52,356 Speaker 5: want to still feel like I'm in control of at 740 00:38:52,436 --> 00:38:54,716 Speaker 5: least one thing in my life, and that's me and 741 00:38:54,756 --> 00:38:57,636 Speaker 5: how I'm reacting to a set of bad circumstances. 742 00:38:58,356 --> 00:39:02,036 Speaker 1: Then you'll hear part two. In the decade that followed 743 00:39:02,036 --> 00:39:06,396 Speaker 1: Amanda's exoneration, she made a bold choice to reach back 744 00:39:06,436 --> 00:39:09,436 Speaker 1: out to the lead prosecutor who built the case against 745 00:39:09,476 --> 00:39:12,476 Speaker 1: her and to confront him face to face in Italy. 746 00:39:13,356 --> 00:39:16,956 Speaker 1: I invited Amanda back to reflect on this experience and 747 00:39:17,116 --> 00:39:20,836 Speaker 1: is truly one of the most moving and profound conversations 748 00:39:20,956 --> 00:39:24,476 Speaker 1: I've ever had. That's all coming up on A Slight 749 00:39:24,556 --> 00:39:38,396 Speaker 1: Change of Plans. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, 750 00:39:38,476 --> 00:39:41,996 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Changed 751 00:39:41,996 --> 00:39:46,116 Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate 752 00:39:46,156 --> 00:39:50,716 Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Luvin, and 753 00:39:50,796 --> 00:39:55,076 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful 754 00:39:55,116 --> 00:39:58,436 Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A 755 00:39:58,476 --> 00:40:01,636 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 756 00:40:01,796 --> 00:40:04,756 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 757 00:40:04,956 --> 00:40:08,076 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 758 00:40:08,076 --> 00:40:11,356 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. 759 00:40:11,596 --> 00:40:34,116 Speaker 1: See you next week. If your son grows up to 760 00:40:34,156 --> 00:40:36,876 Speaker 1: resent parts of his personality and is like, hey, mom, 761 00:40:37,076 --> 00:40:40,156 Speaker 1: I want to do an overhaul of my personality. I'm 762 00:40:40,196 --> 00:40:42,676 Speaker 1: curious about the kind of advice you would give him. 763 00:40:43,196 --> 00:40:45,876 Speaker 2: Well, my son is perfect in every way, and so 764 00:40:45,956 --> 00:40:48,356 Speaker 2: there can never be anything wrong with him.