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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Monday, June sixteenth, and

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Speaker 2: we have a stacked night of headlines tonight. Diddy. We're

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Speaker 2: back in court and big developments there. Juror number six

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Speaker 2: is tossed. There has been no verdict yet in the

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Speaker 2: Karen Reid retrial. So I was completely wrong yesterday, but

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Speaker 2: we are standing by and have some updates on that

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Speaker 2: as well. And also we're going to be joined by

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Speaker 2: defense attorney Thomas M. Bell and he's going to join

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Speaker 2: us to really break down all of these cases and

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Speaker 2: what could possibly be happening behind closed doors in the

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Speaker 2: deliberation room, and what's happening behind closed doors in the

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Speaker 2: ditty trial, etc. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head of

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Speaker 2: KT Studios where I get to do that with Courtney

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Speaker 2: Armstrong and body move in. This whole thing works if

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Speaker 2: we hear from you, So call us anytime eight eight

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Speaker 2: eight three one Crime or you could always hit us

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Speaker 2: up on our socials, at True Crime Tonight's show on

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Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram or at True Crime Tonight. So Karen Reid,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing on that. So I take it. I take it.

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Speaker 2: And Diddy Big day today, Boddy, what do you want

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Speaker 2: to tell us about the Ditty trial so far? Oh Diddy?

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Speaker 3: I feel like every time I talk about Diddy, I

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Speaker 3: start with, oh Diddy.

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Speaker 2: You know it appears he did, Oh Diddy.

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Speaker 3: So two summary witnesses testify today, And if you don't

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Speaker 3: know what a summary witness is, it's basically a representative

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Speaker 3: from the government who provides a bunch of really complex

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Speaker 3: evidence but doesn't, like you know, introduce anything new. They

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Speaker 3: just explain a bunch of evidence at once. So in

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Speaker 3: this case, Anya Sandcar, she's a paralegal specialist with US

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Speaker 3: Attorney's Office in Manhattan, and she served as a summary witness.

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Speaker 3: And she showed charts showing correspondence of all of Diddy's

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Speaker 3: like most trusted staffers, chief of staff KK for instance,

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Speaker 3: Christina Korum, and bodyguard Damian d rock Butler. And then

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Speaker 3: we had de Lisa. I hope I'm saying that right, Lisa.

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Speaker 4: I believe it's de Lisa Penland.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds right.

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Speaker 3: She reviewed evidence charts related to the alleged freak offs

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Speaker 3: and it included movies and like text messages, credit card

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Speaker 3: and travel reports and all kinds of things. She's going

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Speaker 3: to be back tomorrow to finish up her testimony. And

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Speaker 3: then the headline, right, the big headline is that a

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Speaker 3: juror was dismissed. Was dismissed forty one year old black mail.

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Speaker 3: He's a correctional officer. He was dismissed today after the

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Speaker 3: prosecution raised concerns about conflicting answers regarding where he lived.

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Speaker 3: He wrote that he lived in New York City and

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Speaker 3: New York Seat, New York City, but he also lives

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Speaker 3: in New Jersey. And the judge was like, you know,

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Speaker 3: we have serious concerns about your candor or and whether

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Speaker 3: or not you shaded answers to get on the panel.

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Speaker 2: Right. Wow.

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Speaker 3: Well, the defense opposed the dismissal of jursics and filed

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Speaker 3: a third motion for mistrial, citing racial bias.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, I mean, just playing that out for one second,

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Speaker 2: you know, what is the makeup of that jury, because

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Speaker 2: you know everyone does count, they're at a pretty pivotal stage.

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Speaker 2: Is that implying that they were untrustworthy or that they

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Speaker 2: were faking their answers to fake a verdict? Is that?

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Speaker 2: Is that the assertion there?

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Speaker 3: Well, the judge said, the changing answers and inconsistency give

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Speaker 3: the court worry about deception in lying.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's what he said.

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Speaker 3: So basically, he said, the jurors not being truthful, so

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Speaker 3: we can't really trust, you know, anything they say moving forward.

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Speaker 2: And the defense was like, this is.

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Speaker 3: Racially motivated, you want to because he was replaced with

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Speaker 3: a white guy. Right now, it's four white, four black,

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Speaker 3: one Asian, and one Latino.

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Speaker 2: Got it. That's that's based on this most recent swap

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Speaker 2: or wow? Correct?

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Speaker 3: So the judgment men and for women, right, and the

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Speaker 3: US Attorney's office, you know, responded to that motion this morning,

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Speaker 3: and Alexandra excuse me, Alexander Shapiro in like a heavily

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Speaker 3: redacted you know, correspondence dated yesterday. Unfortunately, when considered against

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Speaker 3: that background, it is impossible to leave that this motion

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Speaker 3: is merely a good faith attempt to raise a valid

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Speaker 3: question about the jurors integrity, rather than an effort to

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Speaker 3: take advantage of an opportunity to strike to strike, yet

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Speaker 3: another black mail from the jury. So it's very interesting.

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Speaker 3: But the judge denied the motion and the juror was dismissed.

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Speaker 2: So the juror like, it's much ado about their location.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 2: They had put a certain location of where they lived

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Speaker 2: on an application, and then when they were interviewed they

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Speaker 2: had a different answer correct, a different state, a different state, right,

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Speaker 2: And then when put on the spot directly, it wasn't

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Speaker 2: answered fully. So that brought in some suspicion. Goes to

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Speaker 2: a Hollywood terrible movie. I just watched that movie The Juror,

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Speaker 2: where it like the person's bought off and they get

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Speaker 2: on this jury. It seems impossible, nor are we saying

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Speaker 2: that that's happening here, But that's where my brain goes.

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Speaker 2: So this person gets tossed. Now this alternate who has

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Speaker 2: obviously been paying attention, they just get dialed in and

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Speaker 2: that's the end of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Wow, they're gone. Wow, they're gone, and the

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Speaker 3: alternatives been brought in. So the jury is sad, it's done.

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Speaker 2: Deal it.

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Speaker 4: Honestly, it makes sense though, I mean, the judge said

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Speaker 4: that it would be an appropriate to base its decision

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Speaker 4: on race. I mean that think about what a slippery

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Speaker 4: slope it would be. So to me, it makes sense

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Speaker 4: that you would simply go with alternate number one, the

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Speaker 4: person who was next in line, right, and leave it there.

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Speaker 4: Otherwise you're gonna cherry a pick.

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Speaker 3: I want a woman, right, But I understand we have

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Speaker 3: a talk back about Diddy.

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Speaker 2: Can we hear? Can we hear the talkback?

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Speaker 6: Hey, this is Matt. I heard Kanye West went to

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Speaker 6: visit Sean Puffy Combes at his trial. Anything I missed

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Speaker 6: about his appearance of court?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well he didn't even make it into the courtroom.

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Speaker 3: He wasn't allowed entry into the courtroom and so he

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Speaker 3: got put in the overflow room with you know, the

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Speaker 3: regular public and media, and he left. He was in

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Speaker 3: there about ten minutes and he left, which is interesting, right.

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Speaker 2: So why do we think he went there? I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's such a big appearance too, so it appears he

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Speaker 2: kind of came unannounced, although one of Ditty's sons met

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Speaker 2: him outside and escorted him in. I think the idea

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Speaker 2: was he would be let into the main room. That

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Speaker 2: wasn't the option, so he dipped and you know, I

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Speaker 2: thought he was coming in to sort of show support

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Speaker 2: for Ditty and was dressed in white and kind of

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Speaker 2: putting on a good face to show support for an

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Speaker 2: old friend. But Courtney yesterday had a very very clear

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Speaker 2: thought that why would he possibly wear white? Why would

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Speaker 2: he wear that when the white parties themselves are up

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Speaker 2: for so much conversation?

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Speaker 3: And then I thought he went to intimidate Jane. Oh

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Speaker 3: and then you know he wasn't let in the courtroom,

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Speaker 3: right Jane's testifying, you know not.

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Speaker 2: But can you imagine, by the way, was she testifying

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Speaker 2: when he went in or was she dumb? I can't

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Speaker 2: remember now, No, I think that tracks we can find

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Speaker 2: out real time. But that does make sense. And listen again,

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Speaker 2: this is all falling under the chatter category. That is

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Speaker 2: absolutely speculation. If he's representing to show support from a

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Speaker 2: friend or for a friend, is that the friend you

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Speaker 2: want at a very important time. You know, that could

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Speaker 2: go all kinds of ways. But yes, if you're sitting

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Speaker 2: on the jury or if you're testifying and your face

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Speaker 2: is exposed. Now these people are coming in very very

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Speaker 2: scary stuff. Luckily we have somebody to discuss this with.

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Speaker 4: Oh yes, and now I think we have our guest

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Speaker 4: ready on the line.

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Speaker 5: Well, hello, that's right Tom Bell here. How are you hi?

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Speaker 2: Tom Bell? So thanks for joining us. We know how

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Speaker 2: many cases you've start, you know, you've literally tried so

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Speaker 2: many cases I'm seeing here in our research, over seventy

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Speaker 2: major cases. So you're just the person to ask about

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Speaker 2: what could be happening behind closed doors at some of

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Speaker 2: these high stakes trials.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, first, thank you for having me. I guess

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Speaker 5: I should address the jury disqualification or dispiscial today that

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Speaker 5: that is a little bit unusual. Yeah, you don't really, Uh,

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Speaker 5: typically in federal court they'll have a number of alternatives,

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Speaker 5: and it's not altogether unusual to lose jurors along the

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Speaker 5: way for various reasons health and otherwise. But to have

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Speaker 5: someone disqualified after jury selection based on some indication that

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Speaker 5: they may not have been truthful during the process is

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Speaker 5: a little bit unusual. Was it a little curious about

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Speaker 5: how this came to the court's attention originally?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because this is this is.

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Speaker 5: The type of issue that really should have been sorted

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Speaker 5: out at the beginning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like how did.

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Speaker 3: They how did they even know he lied? Like why

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Speaker 3: why would they be re asking him his address?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean I think you know, there are a

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Speaker 5: couple resources. I mean, typically you would have the address

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Speaker 5: provided you could run checks. Of course, you know, the

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Speaker 5: US Attorney's Office, with all its resources, can generally kind

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Speaker 5: of run background checks and typically do to criminal history

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Speaker 5: checks on all the perspective jurors when they come in.

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Speaker 5: So it's it's the type of thing you would generally

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Speaker 5: want to find out before you got started, But to

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Speaker 5: have all this unfold after the jury's been selected is

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Speaker 5: a little bit unusual.

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Speaker 2: Well, so much testimony too, weeks and weeks and weeks

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Speaker 2: of testimony.

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Speaker 5: Sure, and you've got a presumptive juror, and you know,

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Speaker 5: typically you have alternatives, You have alternates in the event

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Speaker 5: that people kind of lose their way, will get lost

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Speaker 5: along the way for various reasons. But this is pretty borderline.

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Speaker 5: And you know, you've got a presumptive juror with the

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Speaker 5: kind of mix that people are relatively satisfied with, and

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Speaker 5: you're replacing them for reasons saying, you know, the judge

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Speaker 5: obviously has a lot of discretion in these type of

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Speaker 5: issues to assess credibility, but you would hope there will

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Speaker 5: be a little bit more inclusive evidence of where he resides.

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Speaker 5: If he resides in New York, he's presumptively kind of

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Speaker 5: a legal juror. If he lives in jury, New Jersey,

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Speaker 5: then he shouldn't be on the jury panel at all.

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Speaker 5: I suspect how did.

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Speaker 2: He even get summoned if he doesn't listen?

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Speaker 5: In a good question?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, many people receive mail in two locations. I mean true,

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Speaker 4: I don't know, and.

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Speaker 2: It was both.

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Speaker 4: It was the prosecution, by the way, that did bring

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Speaker 4: this to the attention.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm kind of curious what motivated them to. I

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Speaker 5: did see some report one of the some of the

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Speaker 5: background literature that I was provided that some other juror

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Speaker 5: brought it to the court's attention, But I don't know.

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Speaker 5: Presumably somebody had to check this out and investigate it.

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Speaker 5: Why they were doing so is an interesting question. And

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Speaker 5: although the judges have a great deal of discreestion and

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Speaker 5: these type of things, once you got a juror, kind

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Speaker 5: of the jurors is fat and it's going to be

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Speaker 5: difficult to just kind of throw people off for less

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Speaker 5: than compelling evidence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I even heard some rumblings before we came

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Speaker 2: to air that there's conversation in chatter about another juror

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Speaker 2: that might be up for a conversation. So we'll be

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Speaker 2: looking into that and tracking that tomorrow because from a

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Speaker 2: strategy perspective, that doesn't benefit anybody, does it. It just

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Speaker 2: slows the process and could just stump the process, right,

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Speaker 2: how many alternatives?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I saw some report of that and if that's true,

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Speaker 5: that apparently one of the jurors, and I'm not sure

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Speaker 5: how they found this out, may be self reported.

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Speaker 4: This is True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney here

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Speaker 4: with Body Movin and Stephanie Leidecker and we will be

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Speaker 4: continuing this right after the break on True Crime tonight.

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Speaker 2: So Courtney, where would you like to begin? And all

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Speaker 2: things Karen Reid other than me eating crow that I

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Speaker 2: was mistaken.

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Speaker 4: Well, Jurors started and finished their first day of deliberations

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Speaker 4: in the retrial of Karen Reid, so they had started

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Speaker 4: on Friday but only got about two hours before they

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Speaker 4: were sent home from the weekend, and deliberations will continue tomorrow.

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Speaker 4: For anyone not aware, Karen reads accused of hitting her

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Speaker 4: boyfriend John O'Keefe, a Boston police officer, with her SUV

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Speaker 4: and the defense obviously is saying that is incorrect and

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Speaker 4: there is a cover up. But today the deliberations began. Specifically,

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Speaker 4: it was nine oh one am and it wrapped out

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Speaker 4: at four to twenty four. During that time, the defense

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Speaker 4: filed a motion to amend the verdict slip. So what

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Speaker 4: it said was that the existing slip has quote a

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Speaker 4: real potential to confuse the jury and cause errors. And

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Speaker 4: it was focused on count two, which is the drunk

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Speaker 4: driving manslaughter chorge. So for reference in the first trial

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Speaker 4: was the that was the charge that they could not

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Speaker 4: agree upon. The slip indicated that jurors can find her

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Speaker 4: not guilty of the charge and a series of included

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Speaker 4: included lesser offenses, or they can find her individually guilty

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Speaker 4: of three less serious crimes ranging from involuntary manslaughter to

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Speaker 4: drunken driving. This has been denied by Judge Cononi, so

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Speaker 4: it will maintain, you know, it will be status quo.

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Speaker 2: And I'm so conducent. Happens the problem in the first

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Speaker 2: trial too.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that's exactly right. I mean, it did

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Speaker 4: come down not understanding the charges. But luckily we have

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Speaker 4: Thomas Bell, who is still with us season from a

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Speaker 4: defense attorney so hopefully you can help shed some light

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Speaker 4: on what goes on in deliberations and what about these

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Speaker 4: these jury slips, the verdict the jury slips.

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Speaker 5: I wish I could provide a lot more insight into

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Speaker 5: jury deliberations, but of course that's one of the unique

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Speaker 5: things about the American system is usually that secret. And

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Speaker 5: and I wish I could tell you a lot more

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Speaker 5: about what happens inside the jury the deliberation room, but

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Speaker 5: I simply can't offer a whole lot of meaningful help

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Speaker 5: on that. I can say this jury instruction issue, in

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Speaker 5: vertict form issue is very fascinating. Presumably the judge has

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Speaker 5: provided the jury jury instructions that kind of track the

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Speaker 5: law on lesser included offenses, but somewhere along the line

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Speaker 5: the verdict that I presume the defense wants to make

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Speaker 5: the verdict form consistent with the jury instructions, so that is,

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Speaker 5: the jury goes down the list. For example, if they

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Speaker 5: reject the most serious charge and can't conclude beyond a

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Speaker 5: reasonable doubt that she was guilty of the most serious charge,

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Speaker 5: they moved down a notch to each lesser charge and

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Speaker 5: then work their way down to whatever they feel the

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Speaker 5: evidence supports. Or they can't aren't convinced that she committed

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Speaker 5: any crime beyond a reasonable without finder not guilty. Now,

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Speaker 5: I think, if I understanding this correctly, the defense wants

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Speaker 5: at each stage of the process an opportunity for the

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Speaker 5: jury to find her not guilty, which, from what little

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Speaker 5: I understand about the appellate process from the first case,

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Speaker 5: would preclude them from retrying her on the most serious

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Speaker 5: if they if they get down the list a little bit,

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Speaker 5: either get hung again or can't reach a decision, but

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Speaker 5: they found her implicitly or explicitly not guilty of the

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Speaker 5: most serious charges, that would prevent a retrial on those

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Speaker 5: for double jeopardy.

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Speaker 2: Of course, of course I follow it a little bit better. Now,

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Speaker 2: Can I ask a quick question just before we get

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Speaker 2: too lost in the sauce, just for the layman in

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Speaker 2: the room, which is me, the dummy of the group.

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Speaker 2: So basically, if I'm in there, if i'm you know,

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Speaker 2: thank goodness, I'm not a juror, and I'm feeling confused

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Speaker 2: and not sure what my answer is, which, by the way,

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Speaker 2: I feel very conflicted over this case. And I start

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Speaker 2: at the top for the most serious charge, everybody either

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Speaker 2: agrees disagrees guilty not guilty. If that is found, say,

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Speaker 2: for example, not guilty, that just gets removed and then

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Speaker 2: we move to the next lower charge, right, And is

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Speaker 2: that just the process of elimination.

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Speaker 5: Well, typically, yeah, that's how the jury instructions typically were. Now,

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Speaker 5: for example, if they work their way down, and some

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Speaker 5: times it's not unheard of that jurors will compromise. Well,

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Speaker 5: you know, I'm not going to find her guilty of

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Speaker 5: the most serious charge. I might find her guilty of

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Speaker 5: one of these lessers, and you know, whether theoretically they're

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Speaker 5: supposed to or not, the jurors will kind of reach

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Speaker 5: what's called a compromise verdict. But the kind of real

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Speaker 5: danger of that is you're supposed to have a unanimous

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Speaker 5: verdict of whatever it might be. And so theoretically, and

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Speaker 5: what little I kind of read is an anticipation of

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Speaker 5: this interview here. The first trial, they just declared a

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Speaker 5: mistrial on everything, and so the defense has been arguing

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Speaker 5: that since the jury seemed to be inclined to acquit

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Speaker 5: her of the most serious charges, they shouldn't be able

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Speaker 5: to retry her on that. Right, that's right, verdict form

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Speaker 5: will essentially if that were to happen again, provide an

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Speaker 5: opportunity for them to argue that the judge made a

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Speaker 5: mistake on appeal if she gets convicted, and help clarify

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Speaker 5: some of these Wesser included charge issues be the essence

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Speaker 5: of the case from what little I understand it.

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Speaker 3: Right, I know, I think you, I think you have

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Speaker 3: it right now with the verdict slip though, doesn't the

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Speaker 3: judge Thomas, doesn't the judge pull the jury and say

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Speaker 3: is this your true verdict? So like he, like the judge,

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Speaker 3: she'll clarify with the jury, like this is what you

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Speaker 3: It's called the jury.

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Speaker 2: Pull, right, all right?

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Speaker 5: The pull the jury after after the verdict to make

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Speaker 5: each individual joy.

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Speaker 3: So even if the jury makes a mistake, the jury

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Speaker 3: could be like, no, that's not what I meant right.

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Speaker 2: Correct but in the last original trial, and correct me

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Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. I think in the first trial. Part

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Speaker 2: of the issue was, according to the defense, is that

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Speaker 2: Karen Reid was actually found not guilty in two of

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Speaker 2: the three charges, the main ones. But they they didn't

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Speaker 2: but they didn't specify that in this, like said slip.

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Speaker 2: The way they're organizing it perhaps now as a record

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Speaker 2: in a road map because honestly, after the fact, you know,

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Speaker 2: the defense attorney was like, we trying her again. Jurors

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Speaker 2: after the fact came forward and said that they had

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Speaker 2: come to an agreement and most charges so but because

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Speaker 2: it wasn't formally on the record, I think that got lost. Wow. God,

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Speaker 2: that makes much more sense to me. It's very unnerving

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Speaker 2: though that that is it could be so one.

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Speaker 5: Way they can handle that is essentially what they did

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Speaker 5: in the Weinstein trial last week was where they take compartial,

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Speaker 5: they take the verdicts. They took the not guilty and

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Speaker 5: the guilty, and they had a hung jury on the

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Speaker 5: third count. Theoretically preserves that I don't know why they

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Speaker 5: didn't do that the first time. I don't really know

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Speaker 5: enough about this interating. And I will add this though,

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Speaker 5: is when they typically they would have a jury instruction

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Speaker 5: conference where the verdict form would be discussed. And I

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Speaker 5: don't know why. Maybe this wasn't addressed at the Presumably

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Speaker 5: I guess somebody figured out that they wanted to kind

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Speaker 5: of try to make sure this was clean and address

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Speaker 5: this with a judge today to preserve it for appeal

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Speaker 5: if they need to. But that that seems to be

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Speaker 5: what's happening here from my best view.

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Speaker 2: Can you imagine though, if you're on trial for your

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Speaker 2: life and then you find out because jurors leak after

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Speaker 2: the fact that they felt as though within the jury

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Speaker 2: deliberations many big charges were agreed upon, but that was

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Speaker 2: never messaged right or wrong. A that probably shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: public information because that's painful, that's tough stuff.

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Speaker 3: I just feel like the Commonwealth needs to get their

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Speaker 3: act together, Like if this verdict slipped is so confusing

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Speaker 3: the second time around? Like how many cases this Commonwealth

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Speaker 3: doing this the Like why is it so confusing?

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Speaker 2: It's confusing and we're paying such close attention. Imagine if

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Speaker 2: the odds are stacked against you and you don't have

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Speaker 2: a great lawyer because you can't afford one, and you're

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Speaker 2: being well roaded, God forbid, and you don't have press right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, how often do defense teams use these sort of

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Speaker 4: last minute motions?

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Speaker 5: And it's hard to characterize them as a last minute

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Speaker 5: motion other than if you don't do it by the

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Speaker 5: end of the trial, it's kind of too late and

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Speaker 5: you've most appellate courts will consider that you've waive the argument.

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Speaker 5: And I think there's probably a misconception that defense attorneys

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Speaker 5: do what's sometimes characterized as sandbagging it, kind of saving

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Speaker 5: issues on appeal and dropping these last minute issues on

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Speaker 5: the judges and hopes that they'll gain some practical advantage.

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Speaker 5: I can tell you that's almost never true. Yeah, because

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Speaker 5: one judges don't like it and react very poorly to

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Speaker 5: these kind of last minute motions, and two appellate courts

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Speaker 5: will almost never grant relief on these type of things

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Speaker 5: if they perceive that the defense attorneys were kind of

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Speaker 5: intentionally doing it that way. It's more likely a matter

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Speaker 5: of they just wanted to make sure that the verdict

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Speaker 5: forms were consistent with the jury instructions, who avoid exactly

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Speaker 5: what they said, And I suspect the judge just felt that,

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Speaker 5: you know, for whatever reason, they didn't want to revisit

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Speaker 5: this issue.

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Speaker 2: The attorneys seem pretty good as a defense attorney. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm curious if if you've been playing along, her defense

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Speaker 2: team has done a pretty smash up job at least

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Speaker 2: making it confusing enough that I'm confused, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I've changed my mind about her guilt or innocence thirty times.

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Speaker 2: I thought they would have a verdict today, it would

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Speaker 2: be so black and white. The fact that it isn't.

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Speaker 2: That's also a bit of a tell.

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Speaker 5: I've always resisted the opportunity to play Tower commentator because

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Speaker 5: it's a very difficult job. And yeah, lose lose a

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Speaker 5: lot easier to talk about it from the outside than

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Speaker 5: it is to be there. But what from little I've

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Speaker 5: seen of this, they seem to have done an excellent job. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: and I can say, if there's that much confusion about it,

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Speaker 5: what little portions of the trial I watched, isn't that

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Speaker 5: really what reasonable doubt's about to begin with?

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Speaker 2: Correct alternate theories, right, reasonable doubt? That really is the

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Speaker 2: name of the game. And yeah, you've given us such

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Speaker 2: great insight. Thank you. Yeah, I no, really, Thomas, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Like with this verdict, thing has been you know, all

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Speaker 3: the or on the internet the last couple of days,

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Speaker 3: and I think you've provided us some much needed clarification.

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Speaker 3: So coming up next on True Crime tonight, we're going

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Speaker 3: to be filling you in on a new development in

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Speaker 3: the Brian Coburger case, and later a deep dive into

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Speaker 3: the piped and massacre. Are you not familiar with case?

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Speaker 2: We got the experts like literally with us, so stick

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Speaker 2: with us True Crime tonight. We have some talkbacks to

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Speaker 2: get to, but before that, make sure you stay with

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Speaker 2: us because we still got to get to a lot

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Speaker 2: of ditty updates. And also the dad still on the

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Speaker 2: loose who took the lives of his three kids has

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Speaker 2: not been found yet, so we want to share some

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Speaker 2: new developments in that case as well. Let's go to

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Speaker 2: the first talkback.

438
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 7: Hey, y'all, Indy here from Oakland, California. I have a

439
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 7: question about Christina Korum. It's been said that she is

440
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 7: not going to testify in the Ditty chial even though

441
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 7: her name keeps being brought up over and over and

442
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 7: over and over and over again. That is Diddy's right

443
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 7: hand man or woman, as one would say, Why is

444
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 7: she going to testify? And if she doesn't testify, is

445
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 7: she going to be tried next after Diddy?

446
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 2: What's gonna happen? You got to know such a good question, Indy,

447
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 2: because we've been tracking this for a while and you're

448
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 2: right KK. Christina, who is his chief of staff, a

449
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 2: former exec at bad Boy Records now is his chief

450
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: of staff. She's a big piece of this operation. She

451
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,160
Speaker 2: gets likened to Gilain Maxwell. If you know Diddy and

452
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein were alike, she would be the air, quotes

453
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: Gilaye Maxwell again allegedly, allegedly. Allegedly, She claims complete innocence

454
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 2: to this and that she had no knowledge. However, we

455
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 2: are seeing in Silver lawsuits in these most recent developments,

456
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 2: including just on Friday, that her name is being brought

457
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 2: into it with knowledge of the freak offs of like

458
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 2: cameras arranging it, maybe arranging monies and payment for certain activities.

459
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 2: And you know, it's hard to say that you weren't

460
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 2: aware of this type of violent behavior if you were

461
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: also a part of the cover up. Again, she claims

462
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 2: no allegations, but if we're looking at racketeering as the

463
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 2: main charge, she would be a big piece of that equation.

464
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 2: So it's such a great question. Why is she not testifying? Frankly,

465
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: I thought she was working for the FEDS.

466
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 6: I wondered.

467
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 3: I kind of wonder because like, is it possible, like

468
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 3: Indy said, is she getting convicted or you know, charges next,

469
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 3: because she wouldn't testify for.

470
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: Immunity exactly exactly.

471
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 3: That's kind of what I was thinking, Like, well, maybe

472
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 3: she's she was offered you know, immunity to testify, and

473
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: she was like no, And so now if she's going

474
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 3: to be charged with something, of course I'm not going

475
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 3: to bring her on as a witness, right.

476
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: And where does her loyalty lie and to what end?

477
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: And then do you think your life is in jeopardy

478
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 2: if you go against Ditty? Even just based on what

479
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 2: we've seen, She's been accused by many of the Ditty

480
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 2: accusers and said victims to have been really a piece

481
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: of the puzzle. And Cassie Ventura included that's Ditty's longtime

482
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 2: X and we've seen how he treated her. So you know, look,

483
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: is there a universe where she's also a victim and

484
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 2: is a dead woman if she dares go goes against him?

485
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 2: Because she knows where all of the air quotes's bodies

486
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: are buried, Not quite literally, but you know what I mean,

487
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: where the secrets are and what the truth is? Or

488
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: is she you know?

489
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I just can't monster reason why she wouldn't

490
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 3: be summoned the celebrities. Where are all the people that

491
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 3: are supposed to be wrapped up in this courtney?

492
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 2: You have a question, Go ahead.

493
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 4: I do, And I'm not reporting that these are the

494
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 4: same cases, but in Jeffrey Epstein, I'm not remembering if

495
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 4: his number two in charge Maxwell Gilaine Maxwell.

496
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: Yes, she's referred to.

497
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 4: Yes. So did she testify for Epstein? No?

498
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: Is this something currently serving her sentence behind bars because

499
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 2: she was also tried as someone who was brought into

500
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: this you know human You know, I don't know her

501
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: exact charges. I don't want to get them incorrect, but

502
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: you know she has always been accused of being Epstein's

503
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: second hand or his rumor if you will. They also

504
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 2: dated for many many years and after his death, whether

505
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: that was by suicide or he was murdered, you know,

506
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: highly debated. I have no skin in that game. She

507
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 2: is now serving time. And remember the main accuser recently

508
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 2: took her own life, Virginia Dufrey. You know, may she

509
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: rest in peace. And you know it was a very

510
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 2: troubling circumstances for everybody around that case. She seems to

511
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 2: be the last one standing behind bars. But well, he

512
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 2: never gotten those records.

513
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: Where are all the Epstein meccord me to your point too,

514
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 3: Like the reason she didn't testify at his trial is

515
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 3: because he died before it happened.

516
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: The trait he'd never went to trial, right.

517
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 4: Of course, that's right. Thank you for jogging my memory.

518
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 3: No, it's totally fine, Like it's dude, it was years ago.

519
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 3: How could we ever, you can't remember everything? But yeah, no,

520
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 3: that's why. So this is like the first example now

521
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 3: that we have of this kind of operation, you know,

522
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 3: being played out in court.

523
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: Exactly so interesting. We don't know.

524
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 3: I mean, we're only a guessing that she's not being

525
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 3: called because she might be getting her own charges.

526
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 2: Isn't that able? And the loyalty running deep in her

527
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: denying all claims until the bitter ends, you know. So

528
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 2: there does seem to be some coad you know, also

529
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 2: d Rock the bodyguard or security, is also somebody who's

530
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 2: you know, being brought into this who was again a

531
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 2: close ally at the bare minimum. Is it possible that

532
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: you could know a person one way and have them

533
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: also be completely another way? To so many you certainly.

534
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 4: Have seen that of time and time again. I feel

535
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 4: like we are talking talkbacks. This one was on p Diddy.

536
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 4: We have a couple of more. Give us a call

537
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 4: at eighty to eight through one crime. We want to

538
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 4: hear your thoughts. It can be Karen Reid or any

539
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 4: other crime on your mind. We look forward to hearing

540
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 4: from you. And with that, I think let's go to

541
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 4: another talkback. Hi, It's Cynthia from Canada calling. I'm just

542
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 4: wondering why the.

543
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 3: Police officer destroyed their phone.

544
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 2: It would have been police issued at least that's the

545
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 2: case in Canada.

546
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: So why wouldn't they have just went in and had.

547
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 3: Their phone number changed, had there some card changed and

548
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 3: problem solved?

549
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 2: That phone being destroyed is so like what the heck?

550
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 3: Right?

551
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 4: Like it was amazing to see.

552
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: The ATF agent, Right, Brian Higgins, He basically drove right

553
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 3: to a military base and disposed of this phone, like destroyed.

554
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: It in the middle of the night after he turned

555
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: up dead on the bottom of the street and he

556
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: was flirty texting with the now woman accused for that death.

557
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 4: And he testified about this, right, he testified about this.

558
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 4: And he also so he had it destroyed, as you said,

559
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 4: at a military base, and he did so without consulting

560
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 4: anyone or without receiving a written cancelation of the preservation

561
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 4: order for his phone. So he should not have done that.

562
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 4: That was a very bad thing he did.

563
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 2: Why would you do that? Like we have what is

564
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: any explanation for that that would make sense?

565
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 4: Nothing that would make sense to me. And defense attorney

566
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 4: questioned Higgins about the process, and he said, you know, quote,

567
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 4: then you drove to a military base and you threw

568
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 4: both the destroyed SIM card and the phone into the dumpster,

569
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 4: didn't you. Yeah, he believes he put that destroyed SIM card.

570
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 4: So we did those two things. And furthermore, he did

571
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 4: not transfer anything from his old phone to his new phone.

572
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 4: Who allows you that? Nobody does? That includes photos, videos,

573
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 4: and oh, by the way, possible text messages with members

574
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 4: of the Albert family who owned the home in front

575
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 4: of which John O'Keeffe died.

576
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: Not to mention. Many times on the stand this came

577
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: up too, where they were like, nobody texted anybody, and

578
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: they were like, uh, that was a pocket dial and

579
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 2: when the whole house was pocket dialing each other, how

580
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: is that even possible? Like that is you know, just

581
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: downright suspicious. Who has the wherewithal the time and the

582
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: energy at that hour in a blizzard to even pull

583
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: some of this stuff off? Like what's the motivation at

584
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: that point?

585
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: That is such a good question. The talk back in

586
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 3: I wish I knew the rationality behind this, but it's

587
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: s us, right, like this is just super sus and

588
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: it's not.

589
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: It doesn't look good for the state. And that's just

590
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: my opinion.

591
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 3: And you guys know how I feel like about Karen

592
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 3: Reid and whatnot, and I will, I will, you know,

593
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 3: agree though, that this just looks really bad and I

594
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 3: just it's upsetting. But I have a Brian Coberger update

595
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 3: that I kind of wanted to talk about. So, you know,

596
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: we kind of wrestled with us, right, we sure did

597
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 3: about whether to bring this up, and I think we're

598
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 3: just going to you know, be as transparent as possible

599
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 3: and just let everybody know that this is something that

600
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 3: we're actually struggling with talking about, yeah, because we can't

601
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 3: verify it, right, and it seems pretty credible through what

602
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 3: we have verified, but you know, since we can't really

603
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 3: verify it, we're just going to touch on it briefly,

604
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 3: let everybody know that we do know about it, and

605
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: then once we can verify it, bring out the full information.

606
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 2: Right. But what's being said.

607
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: Is that the edged DoorDash driver was arrested back in

608
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 3: September well for a d y okay and when she

609
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 3: was in the interrogation room, basically sobering up. She was

610
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 3: telling the intake officer a story about her life, and

611
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: one of the things she said was, and now I

612
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 3: have to testify at the college kid's murder trial because

613
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: I'm the DoorDash driver and I saw Brian. So that's

614
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 3: that's what's happened. We don't know the authenticity of it.

615
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 3: We don't really we don't know if she's telling the truth,

616
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like, there's no way to

617
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 3: verify that she's truly the DoorDash driver because this is

618
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 3: a really closely guarded secret of who this DoorDash driver

619
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 3: is by the prosecution and defense. And listen, this isn't

620
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 3: like big news because her identity has been so closely guarded,

621
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 3: everybody kind of already figured she probably saw him, right,

622
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 3: like we've all thought that. But now that it's possibly

623
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: being confirmed, you know, allegedly, allegedly allegedly, and the reason

624
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 3: that we struggle bringing it up is obviously number one,

625
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: week we can't verify it. Number two, you know, does

626
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 3: this is this another brick in the wall of evidence

627
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 3: that Brian Coperger might need a delay?

628
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: Exactly right? And you know what's to what end? You know,

629
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: are we just all just putting out information that could

630
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: interrupt an investigation or impact a trial? Is it our business?

631
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 7: You know?

632
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: So we were struggling with the share, but it's circulating everywhere.

633
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,239
Speaker 2: So we would also be remiss not to you know,

634
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: be a sage and acknowledge it. But you know, alongside

635
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: other media outlets, we're all doing an epic deep dive

636
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 2: and we'll keep you posted.

637
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 5: Right.

638
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, this case has really it has had more than

639
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 4: its fair share of leaks and people unknown to unknown

640
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 4: I think, to everyone who are breaking their gag orders.

641
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 3: And I mean left and right, and then you know,

642
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 3: and then the book is coming out, right, this book

643
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 3: is coming out eleven days before the trial in which

644
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 3: he you know, alleges to have talked to grand jury

645
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 3: members and like, I mean, it's all just too much,

646
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: like we're breaking all kinds of laws. Basically, you know,

647
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: it's a grand jury member talking to an author like.

648
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 4: That, No bueno. But listen, we want to hear your

649
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 4: thoughts on tonight's cases. Give us a call. We're at

650
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 4: eighty today, three to one crime. We can talk about Diddy,

651
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 4: we can talk about Karen read anything crime related on

652
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 4: your mind.

653
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: I know you have an updating story that you're going

654
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: to share with us.

655
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 4: Now I do, and I don't know there is such

656
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 4: a proliferation of sex trafficking making the headlines. But I digress.

657
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 4: This case is about that luxury real estate sky ons,

658
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 4: the Alexander brother or scions Alon Orin who are twins

659
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 4: and tall. Those are the three brothers. They're facing a

660
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 4: federal charge, federal charges including sex trafficking and conspiracy. And

661
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 4: this is in connection with exploiting women and minors for

662
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 4: commercial sex. The indictment, yeah, it's bad. The indictment alleges

663
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 4: that the brothers used forced they used fraud, they used coercion,

664
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 4: all of that to lure victims across state lines. And

665
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 4: Tal and Alan are also charged with trafficking a minor.

666
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 4: If convicted, these guys could face decades in prison. And

667
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 4: they're really high profile, these trio of real estate agents.

668
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 4: They have prominent prolific figures in the luxury real estate industry,

669
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 4: including Kim Kardashian. Oh, Kanye West is brought up again tonight.

670
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 2: He took himself out the big leagues and Steve Madden

671
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: and actually two of the brothers were featured in Forbes

672
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: thirty Under thirty for real Estate a couple of years ago. Ohow,

673
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 2: and where is this taking place?

674
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 4: This is I believe it's Miami. It's in Florida. I

675
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 4: believe it's in Miami. And listen, these guys, if they're convicted,

676
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 4: they could face a maximum sentence of life in prison.

677
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 3: So is something the story kind of reminds me of

678
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 3: the Tate brothers. Are you guys familiar with Andrew Tate?

679
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: Not so so much? Do tell? It's similar.

680
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 3: So they're US citizens, but they took up space in

681
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 3: Romania for a little while because they're also like they're

682
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 3: like dual citizen. I don't really know for sure, but

683
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: they're like dual citizens. And they were arrested in Romania

684
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 3: for the same charges. And like Andrew Tate is like

685
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 3: one of those like alpha male kind of guys that's like,

686
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 3: this is what you need to do to women to

687
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 3: be a man. Yeah, And he talks about his basically

688
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 3: his cam girls and how he manipulates them to have

689
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 3: sex with him.

690
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 6: What.

691
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so he was arrested in Romania and he

692
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 3: got in he was going to be sent to the

693
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 3: United States, I believe and Trump parted.

694
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 2: Him or something.

695
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 3: But now but now they're being transferred to Britain England

696
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 3: to face charges there. It's similar, it's it's like very

697
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: similar to this is all alleged by the way, but yeah,

698
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 3: it kind of reminds me the Tape Brothers a little bit,

699
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 3: like the whole racket, you know, the whole racket, the

700
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 3: sex trafficking, you know, the business everything.

701
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: It kind of reminds me of that.

702
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 3: It's something you should look into. The Tape Brothers, it's all.

703
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 3: It's a it's a big thing on the internet.

704
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: In this case too. You know, if they're looking to

705
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 2: traffic young girls, is the assertion here that there's also

706
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: sex workers involved? Or are they like partying out and

707
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 2: playing on South Beach and drugging women? You know, these

708
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: are horrifying allegations.

709
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 4: Well it was commercial sex, so I think that is

710
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 4: prostitution right.

711
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: Oh, well, more on this to come. We'll be following

712
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: that closely. We have more talk facks come in your way.

713
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: We're excited to hear from you true crime tonight. We

714
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: talk true crime all the time, So lots of headlines

715
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: to continue to unpack in the coming days as well.

716
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong take it away.

717
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 4: Well, unfortun Actually, the manhunt for Travis Decker still rages on.

718
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 4: Travis Decker is the man. He's a former Army and

719
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 4: National Guard veteran, and he's accused of murdering his three

720
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 4: young daughters, all under ten in Washington State. So, as

721
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 4: of right now, because we have been keeping tabs on

722
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 4: this manhunt, the County Sheriff's office posted on Facebook quote,

723
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 4: deputies remain on watch for Travis Decker, so it is

724
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 4: very much still ongoing, and the deputies and the regional

725
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 4: Tactical Response Team members are still active. They're in the

726
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 4: border area of our country, so it's kind of between

727
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 4: where we meet Canada and near us the last believe

728
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 4: location of the suspected murder Travis Decker.

729
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 2: And it's worth noting that he was suffering allegedly from

730
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 2: mental illness and required medication. Was said to have gone

731
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: into the wilderness after taking the lives of his kids,

732
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,919
Speaker 2: barefoot or with flip flops on, unprepared, despite the fact

733
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: that he does have you know, outdoors survival training, et cetera.

734
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 2: So there's no happy ending to this.

735
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 3: My friend, my friend Tina was mentioning something today She

736
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: was saying something like maybe he got into a car,

737
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 3: you know, and I think that's something that's a possibility.

738
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 3: I have total faith in the US Marshals. I mean,

739
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 3: these guys are professional, and this is what they do.

740
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 3: They hunt people, right, I mean, this is what they do.

741
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,919
Speaker 3: I have absolute confidence that the US Marshals are going

742
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 3: to apprehend him.

743
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: I really do. I don't think he's going to be

744
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: able to sneak into Canada. I just don't. I don't either,

745
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: especially disheveled, et cetera. And again, like this mom, his

746
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: ex wife and the mom of these three girls. You know,

747
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: she feels as though he just had a snap. His

748
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 2: brain just must have collapsed on itself, and you know,

749
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 2: again he needs help.

750
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, Decker's wife, she did mention that it was borderline

751
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 4: personality disorder and that he was unmedicated. So that is

752
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 4: serious stuff. It's serious stuff. It's a it's a bad combination.

753
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 4: And this has been going on for seventeen days. Seventeen days,

754
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:09,959
Speaker 4: that's right.

755
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yep, what does he what I mean,

756
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 2: do we think he's still alive?

757
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 4: Well? I do. It's funny. I was speaking with someone

758
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 4: else and they said kind of off the cuff, it'll

759
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 4: be hard to find him if he's dead, And I said, no,

760
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 4: I don't think it will actually, because he's being tracked

761
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 4: and you know, with dogs and all of the resources.

762
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 2: So it's very dense though. That's that kind of pretty hard.

763
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: And by the way, if he's medically not well and

764
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: you come to your senses and you realize what has happened, and.

765
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,919
Speaker 3: Am I understanding too, like you know with drones, because

766
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 3: that's how they're they're utilizing a lot of technology to

767
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 3: try to find him. And like with drones, if the

768
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 3: canopy is so dense, the drone can't like really penetrate

769
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 3: like you know, like heat detection and whatnot. CA don't

770
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 3: really penetrate that canopy. And this is a really rural area, right,

771
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 3: This is like a beautiful foresty kind of areas. There's

772
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 3: a lot of canopy that I don't think the drone

773
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 3: right like penetrate.

774
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:12,439
Speaker 2: Right.

775
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 4: No, it's a really really tough situation. And there has

776
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 4: also there's been some blood found on his truck. So

777
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 4: the truck was found located and there was human male

778
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 4: blood which has been not id'd by DNA results, and

779
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 4: there was also non human blood. Decker's husky mixed dog

780
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 4: was also found. He was found close to these poor

781
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 4: young victims, and for what it's worth, he was taken

782
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 4: into the Humane society.

783
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 2: So it's important we'll just keep so there's no belief

784
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 2: that it's the dog's blood, right like it No, maybe

785
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 2: it was like a rabbit, like maybe he'd made dinner

786
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 2: or something, you know, like something like that.

787
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 4: Exactly. It's the wild cness, you know, it could be anything.

788
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 4: But listen, body, I think you have some other headline

789
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 4: to fill us in on.

790
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 2: I do.

791
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 3: This is involving the shooter, the killer who killed the

792
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 3: lawmakers in Minnesota over the weekend.

793
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 2: How tragic is this? Right?

794
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 3: Well, today in Saint Paul, acting US attorney Joseph Thompson

795
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 3: great last name by the way, described Vance Butler's actions

796
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 3: as the stuff of nightmares as he laid out the

797
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 3: case against him in his first federal court appearance. So

798
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 3: he's being tried in federal court. Butler is accused. I

799
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 3: don't not say, am I saying that?

800
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 2: Right? Butler?

801
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 3: It's b o l At Butler. I thought it was Bolter,

802
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 3: Oh Bolter, Yeah, that makes more sense, Boulder. That's how

803
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 3: that's how I have heard it, that makes more sense. Yeah,

804
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: Bolter is being accused of basically assassination right of Democratic

805
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 3: state Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark in the

806
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 3: attempted assassination of state Senator John Hoffman and his wife Yvette.

807
00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 3: Boltler is facing federal charges including stalking and firearms charges

808
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 3: in state charges including first degree murder. He was arrested yesterday,

809
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,919
Speaker 3: So he was apprehended basically last night while we were

810
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 3: on air, Right, that was like breaking for us. And

811
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 3: he was like in a field kind of near his farm,

812
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 3: and he had like a like a vest on. He

813
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 3: was fully closed. He looked fairly clean, which I thought

814
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 3: was interesting, Like I think he would be like a

815
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 3: lot more dirty if he was like running around the fields.

816
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 2: But okay, and again it was a major manhunt. He

817
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 2: was so close to home. That seems so strange, right.

818
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 3: So he it was reported very early on that he

819
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 3: left a manifesto, right, and of course, me with my

820
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 3: manifesto hyperfixation was.

821
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 2: Like, oh, what's this about.

822
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 3: While we learned today that the manifesto is not anything

823
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 3: like a Ted Kaczynski style manifesto or anything like that.

824
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 3: So while disappointing for me. It's probably good for the

825
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 3: prosecution that this didn't happen, but allegedly it. Brian Enton

826
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 3: actually tweeted pictures of a couple pictures of the man

827
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 3: off quote unquote manifesto, and it's like two side by

828
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: side pictures of a notebook. This is all they know

829
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 3: so far, okay, of a notebook, And it was like,

830
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 3: you know, ben verified spocheo. If you can't find them there,

831
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: look at you know, home ownership records, look up the

832
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 3: county assessor's office. He's basically writing down how he's going

833
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 3: to find these you know, victims, these politicians addresses, and

834
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 3: he's just like documenting it like you know, true people

835
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 3: search dot com and Spochio dot com and like websites

836
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 3: that you look you could type people's names and to

837
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 3: find out where they live. So apparently he had a

838
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 3: list of forty five elected officials.

839
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 2: In these notebooks.

840
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 3: It's the names included were Governor Tim Waltz, Senator Amy Klobashar,

841
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 3: and Representative Elon Omar.

842
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 2: It's really unfathomable no matter what your politics are, this,

843
00:43:54,520 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: oh yeah, you can't be hunting lawmakers period anybody. And yeah,

844
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 2: it goes without saying I mean he yeah, right, like,

845
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: thank you for the clarity, no hunting anybody, but it

846
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: is really horrifying here you are, you're a public figure,

847
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: You're putting yourself out there, and you're that easily findable.

848
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 4: Right, it seems from what I've heard, and I know

849
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 4: this is still unfolding, but as of right now, it

850
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 4: does seem like he was working alone. I had I

851
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 4: had read or seen I forget a text that he

852
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 4: had sent that Bolter had sent to his childhood best friend.

853
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 3: I saw that and text, Yeah, he had like a

854
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 3: group text too, and it really he tried to make

855
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: clear that he was acting alone from what I understand, No,

856
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 3: you're right, And he also sent a text to a

857
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 3: family group chat after the shootings. This is interesting that

858
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 3: said dad went to war tonight. I don't want to

859
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 3: say more because I don't want to implicate anybody. And

860
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 3: that was a very similar text that he sent to

861
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 3: his friend that you were mentioning Courtney.

862
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 4: That's right, I don't want to implicate I.

863
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 2: Don't want to implicate you, is what he said to

864
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: his childhood Thanks for putting that in a text and

865
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,760
Speaker 2: implicating me, just by virtue of this text chain. I mean,

866
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 2: this is an indication of a lot of mental illness.

867
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 2: I would have to tell him as well, and I

868
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: would agree it's such a again, so senseless.

869
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 3: So he allegedly stalked his victims, by the way so

870
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 3: and took notes. So what I'm taking from that is

871
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 3: that in this quote unquote manifesto, which really I think

872
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 3: is just a notebook of his notes. You know, it's

873
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 3: not really a manifesto, I don't think, but that's what

874
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 3: they're calling it. I'm guessing they have evidence of him,

875
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 3: you know, like came home from work at five thirty,

876
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 3: brought in groceries, you know, went grocery shopping on Sunday

877
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 3: at seven. You know, things like movements of his victims.

878
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 3: He was stalking these people, which is horrifying.

879
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: There's nothing more horrifying. And again just a reminder people,

880
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 2: information is out there, real to He's so careful and

881
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: you know that this is never going to be the answer.

882
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: What a miserable ending for everyone. Horrible, Like chiavious, he

883
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 2: was trying not to get caught. He was in a costume,

884
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: he was dressed as a you know, law enforcement. He

885
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 2: was wearing that weird latex face. Oh, that was terribly

886
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: scary to see you on the ring camera. So this

887
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 2: was very thought out and thought through. I mean to

888
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: say that you think you're at war. No, no, this

889
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: is a war in your head. Right.

890
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 3: So he he has children of his own too, He

891
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 3: has he has a father of five who worked for

892
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 3: decades in the food industry and also at funeral homes.

893
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 3: And there's a there's a video. I don't know if

894
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 3: you guys have seen any of him giving a sermon

895
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 3: over in Africa and the Congo. He went over to

896
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 3: the Congo and like gave a sermon and he was

897
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 3: doing something over there. And in fact, court and you

898
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 3: mentioned the interview with his childhood friend, and in that

899
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 3: interview he talks his friend talks about that trip that

900
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 3: he went over to Africa and was getting everything set

901
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 3: up over there. He was, you know, very religious, and

902
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 3: he was apparently anti abortion and was again this is

903
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 3: all alleged, you know, this is being reported on New

904
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 3: York Times allegedly very very anti abortion. And it's possible

905
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 3: that he was targeting lawmakers that were, you know, pro

906
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 3: choice when in fighting for pro choice laws in the country.

907
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 4: You know, Stephanie earlier you had asked, is it possible

908
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 4: this was regarding Diddy, but is it possible that you

909
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 4: see someone one way and then they're totally different in

910
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,479
Speaker 4: another way? And you know this is an indication of yes.

911
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 4: I mean this man who obviously was stalking and planning assassinations.

912
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 4: Not only was he a father of five, but he

913
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 4: was a businessman. He worked decades in the food industry.

914
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 4: He worked at funeral homes so many times, many sides

915
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 4: to all of us. But listen, we are going to

916
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 4: be talking about the piked In massacre, which is an

917
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 4: unimaginable story about a family. It's for Wagners who allegedly,

918
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 4: although so we can take that off, killed a family

919
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 4: of eight, the Rodents.

920
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 2: We wanted to sort of do a little bit of

921
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 2: a deep dive into the recent updates in Pie County

922
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 2: the piked In massacre. If you've not heard of this

923
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: case or the podcast, it's really this case in Pie County, Ohio.

924
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 2: That is something that we've been following very very closely.

925
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: We've done many seasons of the podcast. And essentially eight

926
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 2: family members of the Rodent Gilly families were killed by

927
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 2: a neighboring family and that family is named the Wagners,

928
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: and they were accused of murdering essentially their best friends.

929
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: And we followed that from the very beginning. Three of

930
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 2: the four have already been sentenced and now we're waiting

931
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: on the final trial of Dad and there's been lots

932
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 2: of delays. It's been delayed now again and court you

933
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 2: had some new developments for us.

934
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. So just last week the prosecution appealed the removal

935
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 4: of the death penalty. And this is ahead of the

936
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 4: last trial that Stephanie just mentioned. That's for the father

937
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 4: in the Wagner family, Billy. So the death penalty was

938
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 4: removed from the case by the judge last November. He

939
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 4: was concerned that continuing the capital litigation was causing so

940
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 4: many trial delays, which, as you guys know, I mean

941
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 4: we've talked I think even here about how much death

942
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 4: penalty cases.

943
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, now imagine four of them.

944
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 3: There's so much more bout right, There's so much more

945
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 3: that goes into those cases, right, I mean, a life

946
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 3: is on the line, they have to take it.

947
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:33,959
Speaker 2: I mean all I think all trial murder trials are.

948
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 3: Taken seriously, but when you're going to be basically taking

949
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 3: someone's life, there's a lot more that goes into it,

950
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 3: and special attorneys have to be defending you, you know.

951
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,240
Speaker 2: So it's a it's a bigger it's a bigger process

952
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 2: and really unique to this particular case, and it's magnitude. Again,

953
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 2: it's one of the largest investigations in Ohio history. You know.

954
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: They allegedly killed eight different people at four different locations.

955
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 2: They planned it, They plotted it. That's mom, dad, older brother,

956
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,720
Speaker 2: younger brother. So four people together had little murder meetings

957
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 2: allegedly that mom was in charge of holding. And this

958
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 2: went on for months and months and months. And the

959
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 2: dad on the killer side and dad on the living side,

960
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 2: they were best friends victim side, youngest daughter son on

961
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: the accused killer side, they had a child together, and

962
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 2: a lot of this was because of custody and they

963
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: were all very, very very close. So Courtney and I

964
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 2: have been tracking this since the very beginning when the

965
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 2: murders happened. And really unique to this is not only

966
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 2: did this family of four get arrested together and is

967
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: charged with conspiring together like an enterprise to murder eight people.

968
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 2: Mom took a plea deal, youngest son took a plea deal,

969
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 2: and in that plea deal, they took the death sentence

970
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 2: stipulations off of the remaining two.

971
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 3: Right, because the death penalty will be used often to

972
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 3: base clean, negotiate right, correct, correct, right.

973
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 4: But in this case, what's so terrible is, as Stephanie said,

974
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 4: the plea deal came with that removal. But now that

975
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 4: the judge has just said, hey, this is just going

976
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 4: too slow, and for the fourth and final trial, or

977
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 4: I guess only two have gone to trial because two

978
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 4: pled for the last trial, Billy Wagner, We're just going

979
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 4: to take it off. But then part of removing the

980
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 4: death sentence was the two who pled out mom and

981
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 4: younger son, they had to agree to testify against the

982
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 4: remaining two. It was quote to the satisfaction of the prosecution,

983
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 4: which is what it was like.

984
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 3: That was, we don't know that, and we don't know

985
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 3: what the satisfaction of the prosecution means, do we.

986
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 4: Well, it seems like it was testify reasonably. And I'm

987
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 4: only guessing that because in George Wagner, the other older

988
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 4: son who actually seemed to have the least skin in

989
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 4: the game out of everyone, because he was not the

990
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 4: person who fathered the child that Stephanie mentioned where the

991
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 4: custody issue happens, but mom and brother testified against him.

992
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 4: Stephanie and I were at his trial in Ohio. You

993
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,919
Speaker 4: guys went, mm hmmm, oh okay, but really that testimony

994
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,439
Speaker 4: was I mean, Stephanie, I don't know if you agree,

995
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 4: but I think it was one hundred percent the lynch

996
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 4: pin of the case that the prosecution set out.

997
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like, not only is it life and

998
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 2: death stuff, but like, here you are, you're testifying against

999
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: your only brother, the person you love in all the world,

1000
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 2: and you're testifying against him and sealing his fate, or

1001
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 2: your mom and you're testifying against your own son so

1002
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 2: you can get a plea deal and be off in

1003
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 2: thirty years, that really happened. And now there's a fourth

1004
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 2: trial of Dad, and everybody's story agrees on one thing.

1005
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 2: Dad was there. Like there's so many versions of testimony

1006
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 2: to who was doing what in this particular case, but

1007
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 2: in all scenarios, Dad was there and potentially a trigger

1008
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 2: puller all scenarios. So some always said, why are we

1009
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 2: even having this trial? Everybody else has either pled or

1010
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 2: have been found guilty. It's a waste of resources. Now

1011
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 2: it sings like there it might even be an alternate ending.

1012
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: And now there's a peal appeal appeal. So not to

1013
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 2: get too lost in you know, the sauce. It's definitely

1014
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 2: an interesting case when it comes to four people being

1015
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 2: tried for the same thing. How does each plea or

1016
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 2: trial affect the other? So listen, you guys promised me

1017
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 2: a manifesto. What's the deal. Well, it's funny enough. Courtney

1018
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 2: and I were at that event that we met you

1019
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 2: at in Crime Con and we were doing we were

1020
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 2: actually doing a panel about the piked in massacre the podcast,

1021
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 2: along with Joseph Scott Morgan who was with us last night,

1022
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 2: discussing the forensics, and they had a big crowd and

1023
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,240
Speaker 2: it was, you know, lots of important questions being asked

1024
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 2: by the people who attended. And then afterward they were

1025
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 2: doing a little like signing and stuff, and this gentleman

1026
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,359
Speaker 2: comes up to Courtney and I and is like, look,

1027
00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 2: I work at the prison that the accused j Wagner,

1028
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 2: who had taken a plea deal to get the remaining

1029
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 2: death sentences off the table for his family. He's also

1030
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: the one that had the kid with the so he's

1031
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: like a main guy he's like the main character here.

1032
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 2: He according to this prison guard, he is writing a manifesto.

1033
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 2: He's going he's losing his vision. So he's in prison

1034
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 2: and apparently is writing in very small print, front and back,

1035
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: front and back paper. And you know, he said to

1036
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 2: us a manifesto, and Courtney and I looked at each

1037
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 2: other and I was like, I don't know what a manifesto?

1038
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 2: What does that mean? What exactly does that mean? And

1039
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 2: we want to know more about what's happening in the

1040
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 2: manifesto because anything he has said on the stand has

1041
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 2: been incredibly unsatisfying. And we'll talk more about that at

1042
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 2: a later date. So the manifesto is still to come,

1043
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 2: and we've tried to get it and so far, no luck.

1044
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 2: Are you in communication with him. We have definitely reached

1045
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 2: out to all of them many many times, and no,

1046
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 2: we are not in communication. And there was some like

1047
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 2: chatter about interviews and things, and we're not paying for

1048
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 2: any of them.

1049
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 3: And I don't blame you. You know, it's not in

1050
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 3: the cards for us. Refresh my memory. I listened. I

1051
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 3: drove to Reno one time. It's like it's like a

1052
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 3: nine hour drive. I drove there and back eighteen hours

1053
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 3: and I listened to the entire piked in Masacre the

1054
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 3: entire time I was driving.

1055
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 2: It was so good.

1056
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 3: Fifty I forget, I forget did this this k this murder?

1057
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 3: It all happened at like the same time, right, Like

1058
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 3: it was coordinated, Is that right?

1059
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 4: It happened yet it was in the course of one

1060
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 4: faithful night. And this was in April, the night of

1061
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,800
Speaker 4: April twenty first and to the morning of the twenty second,

1062
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 4: back in twenty sixteen. And it was over four different locations.

1063
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 3: So they were all in four different places, correct, that's right,

1064
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 3: And it was it was all family members, so right.

1065
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 4: The victims as they were as they were found by

1066
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 4: police was it's a little complicated, but to stick with

1067
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 4: for just a second. But in one home was Chris Rodin.

1068
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 4: He's the patriarch of the Rodent family. And he was

1069
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 4: found with his really close cousin Gary, who would often

1070
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 4: stay with him, okay, or they were found by a relative.

1071
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 4: That relative called nine one one then went pretty much

1072
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 4: next door. It was on the same property and there

1073
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:22,240
Speaker 4: found the son of Chris Rodin, Frankie Rodin, twenty years old,

1074
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 4: prime of his life, sleeping with his beautiful fiancee. Yeah,

1075
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 4: Hannah Gilly and they two they were found second, so

1076
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 4: then that's four and their three year old child was

1077
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 4: left as well as their six month old child. They

1078
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 4: were left unharm oh okay. Then in the third home

1079
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 4: was the matriarch, Dana Rodin, who was found with her

1080
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 4: sixteen year old son, Chris Junior. And then also Hannah

1081
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 4: May Rodin, who is the I mean girl woman. She

1082
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 4: was nineteen years old that Stephanie mentioned earlier, and she

1083
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 4: is the victim who shared custody. She's the child the right, Okay,

1084
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 4: that's correct, and she was found with her. She had

1085
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 4: a four day old baby.

1086
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 2: Stop.

1087
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 4: That baby was left unharmed. So that is the third house.

1088
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 2: Armed left for a day, left for dead brother nursing.

1089
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: Sorry everybody trigger alert by the way, but allegedly done

1090
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: by her own father.

1091
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, really despicable and that I mean, yeah, there are

1092
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 4: many that's hard details and we saw, you know, some

1093
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 4: of this on the stand as people were testifying about it,

1094
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 4: so it's all on the record. And then the fourth

1095
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 4: and final home was Kenneth Roden, who was patriarch Chris

1096
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,479
Speaker 4: Rodin's brother, and he was found further down the road.

1097
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 4: But those first three clumpings of homes were all close.

1098
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 4: The Rodents were a really tight knit family. They just

1099
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 4: loved each other and were real assets to everyone.

1100
00:57:58,040 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 3: And they all die, Like was it was it with

1101
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 3: hours of each other? Like did they split like the

1102
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 3: four I'm asking so many stupid questions. I'm sorry, was

1103
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 3: it all split? Like did all four of the suspects

1104
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 3: or the people that did this? Did they all go

1105
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 3: to their separate ways and do it at the same time?

1106
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 3: Great so that nobody could be.

1107
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 2: Called or allegedly not, but that was a theory at

1108
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 2: one point. And they did take phones, moms stayed at

1109
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 2: home or on this we just scratched in the surface.

1110
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 2: That's right.

1111
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 3: Stick around because next we have more on the Piked

1112
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 3: and Masker. Good because I got a lot of questions

1113
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 3: and it's missing Person Monday and we need your help

1114
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 3: to crack the case.

1115
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: And don't forget to call us.

1116
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 3: At eight eight eight thirty one Crime with your thoughts

1117
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 3: on the Piked and Masker or any of Tonight's stories.

1118
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 3: Really keep it here True Crime Tonight.

1119
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 2: So we're talking about the Piked in massacre. We did

1120
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 2: the podcast We Meet the Doc and this case is

1121
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 2: still unfolding, and we've gotten a few listeners who have

1122
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 2: asked us to cover it, and it's a long one

1123
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,919
Speaker 2: to cover. So if you're just hearing about this case,

1124
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 2: we're giving such a brief overview that it might be

1125
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,959
Speaker 2: a lot to track. So I promise we'll we'll bring

1126
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 2: more of that because it's a deep, a deep case,

1127
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 2: but if you do know it, we also want to

1128
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 2: make sure you're getting the most recent developments as well.

1129
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,479
Speaker 4: So Courtney, Yeah, So the one thing I did leave

1130
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 4: out in terms of the most recent is that the father,

1131
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 4: the accused father, Billy Wagner, he is slated to be

1132
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 4: back in court on June twenty seventh, and we'll see

1133
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 4: what the judge has to stay about moving forward and

1134
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 4: when and where this trial will happen. There's a lot

1135
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 4: to dig into with that. There's many, many complications, and

1136
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 4: the judge has really trying not to be biased, but

1137
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 4: it sure seems like he is against the prosecution from

1138
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 4: all really well the stipulation, for example, when he had

1139
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 4: pulled off what's definitely mentioned of the agreement that the

1140
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 4: state made and saying okay, death penalty is off. You

1141
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 4: just have to testify well, if he's now saying it's

1142
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 4: just going to be off the table, period, then in

1143
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 4: this moment, it's unclear to me, Stephanie, you may know,

1144
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 4: it's unclear to me if Mom Angela accused, Mom and

1145
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 4: son Jake Wagner both admitted murderers, if they have to

1146
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 4: testify at all, and if that's the case, there is

1147
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 4: a very little forensic evidence in this.

1148
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 8: Case, oh against him, I guess my dad specifically, that's

1149
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 8: rather than and I think it's worth mentioning in this

1150
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 8: case too, there's very little forensics evidence, which is pretty shocking,

1151
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 8: giving that it was for people going house to house

1152
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 8: hunting people that they knew so well, and they knew

1153
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 8: their comings and goings.

1154
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 2: These were friends, right, These were people. We've seen photographs

1155
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 2: of them all super chummy, you know, arm in arm,

1156
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 2: hanging out at each other's weddings, et cetera. So we're

1157
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 2: talking super tight. Now that this sentencing is getting all,

1158
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 2: you know, pushed all over the place, have to remember

1159
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 2: this was a crazy overkill. The people who did this

1160
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 2: to the Rodent and Gilly families is such a monster

1161
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 2: beyond words. Now times that by four Mom is saying, hey,

1162
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 2: I wasn't even there. Sure I planned it, but you know, listen,

1163
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 2: I knew they were gonna go out and kill that night,

1164
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 2: but I wasn't there, And in fact, I took a

1165
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:20,919
Speaker 2: sleeping pill and went to bed, even though I knew

1166
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 2: full well that my sons and my husband were going

1167
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:26,439
Speaker 2: to go murder eight people in one night. She takes

1168
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 2: a plea deal, she'll be out in thirty years potentially.

1169
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 2: Then the youngest one who's at the center of it,

1170
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 2: who had the most skin in the game, and by

1171
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: his own admission, says he killed five of the eight victims.

1172
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 2: He killed himself and likely his beloved, the mother of

1173
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 2: his child. Allegedly he took her life and left this

1174
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 2: child to nurse on it its dead mother on his watch. Sorry,

1175
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 2: trigger alert, but that's just to share the gravity that

1176
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 2: we're talking about right now. So you mean to tell

1177
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 2: me the woman that decided that that shit happen is

1178
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 2: going to get out in thirty years, that's insane. Well,

1179
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 2: what about him?

1180
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 4: It's Karen Reid.

1181
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 2: We're talking about this one. It had eight people murdered

1182
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 2: on her murder meeting in the city. It's like insane.

1183
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 3: Well, Jacob Wagner has it taken off away from him too,

1184
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 3: and he was like the one, like you said, the

1185
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 3: most skin in the game and repositioned Mom.

1186
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, like he was expected. He was like surprised himself.

1187
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 2: It looked like Courtney correct me if I'm wrong when

1188
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 2: we watched the hearing. I don't think he was expecting

1189
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 2: to get out of prison anytime soon, nor did it

1190
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 2: appear that he was even complaining about it. He was like, yeah,

1191
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 2: I'm doing the good things behind bars, you know. He

1192
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 2: found God all the things, obviously, and it seemed as

1193
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 2: though the judge made the decision game time to sort

1194
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 2: of well, we'll see maybe he should get parole.

1195
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 4: Why yes, because this judge, and this is on his records,

1196
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 4: the death penalty, he doesn't think it should be personalms

1197
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 4: his personal opinion and also overly long. You know, life

1198
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 4: with no parole does tend to drive with this judge.

1199
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 2: Either, despite the fact that he has a admitted to

1200
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 2: it on records, had also testified to it at his

1201
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 2: brother's trial, put his own brother behind bars based on

1202
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 2: this testimony, and Mom is getting a cakewalk, gig who

1203
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 2: and how do you make it to five of them? Yes,

1204
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 2: by his own admission, which only leaves three left. Which

1205
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 2: now everybody kind of points to Dad allegedly, allegedly that's

1206
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 2: the trial that's still to come. Dad is like, yes,

1207
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 2: sign me up. Seems like everyone's lost their minds up

1208
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 2: in here. I should just start asking for all kinds

1209
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 2: of crazy stuff. So yeah, sure enough, it all works.

1210
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 2: There's a trial delay. They're trying to get a change

1211
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 2: of venue. YadA, YadA, YadA, YadA YadA. Eight people. How

1212
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 2: could this be that complicated? Right? And I would imagine

1213
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 2: they still have to testify, We don't think so, I

1214
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 2: mean that into that right now. That was the agreement,

1215
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,919
Speaker 2: which appears the judges, now the new judge has maybe

1216
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 2: overruled on that.

1217
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 4: That's what the whole issue is exactly. So if that,

1218
01:03:57,400 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 4: you know, the agreement was Okay, we'll take the death

1219
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 4: penalty if well, huh huh, judge shook it off. So

1220
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 4: there is no if it's crazy.

1221
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 2: So first they were looking to change the venue, which

1222
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 2: is really a difficult thing because in this you know community,

1223
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 2: this was an incredible, incredible loss you know, by the community,

1224
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 2: you know, eight people. You could imagine everybody in the

1225
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 2: town knows somebody connected to this case. Quite literally, So

1226
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 2: if they're going to move the venue, that just means

1227
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 2: the people that are working really hard every single day

1228
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 2: in Pie County can't attend the trials and be there

1229
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 2: for their you know, standing up for their families who

1230
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,440
Speaker 2: can't speak for themselves because their lives were taken by

1231
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 2: these animals by their own admission, or they had to

1232
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 2: take off of work and you know it's not easy

1233
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 2: to do that and slep an hour and a half

1234
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 2: to another courthouse. So like, that's unfortunate. That's being appealed

1235
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 2: real time. And then if mom and youngest son Jake

1236
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 2: Wagner are not compelled to testify against Dad, is that fair,

1237
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 2: Like they should have to face their peers. Yes, and

1238
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 2: the family members, like, you don't get to just pick

1239
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 2: a new venue and not have to face the Rodent

1240
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 2: and Gilly families. Ida I, because that's probably what their

1241
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 2: biggest fear is about going to court, is they have

1242
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 2: to look people in the eyes who they've lied to

1243
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 2: to nauseum. They even went to the funerals, the boys,

1244
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,959
Speaker 2: the gentleman of the family, the killer accused killer Dad

1245
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 2: obviously his trial hasn't happened yet. And then George Wagner

1246
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 2: or oldest brother. He was found guilty, sentenced to life.

1247
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 2: And then Jake, the youngest one at the center of it,

1248
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 2: he took this, you know, forcoctapleviial. They went to the funerals. Unbelievable.

1249
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, one thing I wanted to clarify because it's so important, Stephanie.

1250
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 4: You touched on the murder meetings. So these were actually

1251
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 4: and this is all court record. Angela, the mom we

1252
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 4: were talking about who homeschooled the two sons. She literally

1253
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 4: would have, you know, meetings at the kitchen table, and

1254
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 4: she was tracking several of the victims via social media

1255
01:05:57,160 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 4: and other and it was plotting and planning the wins

1256
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 4: and the way. And not only steph you mentioned, oh

1257
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 4: mom wasn't there, but was aware of it and masterminded

1258
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 4: so much so that she literally bought her son's shoes

1259
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 4: to wear that night, like she was setting them off

1260
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 4: to summer camp.

1261
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, Like you know how hard that is, Like,

1262
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 2: you know, you get school shoes for yourself when you

1263
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 2: start school, remember those days. Imagine as a mother, you're

1264
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 2: doing that for your sons, your adult sons, so that

1265
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,959
Speaker 2: they could go murder people. Even if you were such

1266
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 2: a sicko that that was even on the menu of

1267
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 2: something to do. Why would you put your boys in

1268
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 2: that position. It's like such a double sicko thing. It's

1269
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 2: unbelievable to me. So she just went to sleep. She's

1270
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 2: like Manson, she just like put the idea together and

1271
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 2: then let them all go do her dirty work and

1272
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 2: have to, you know, face the consequences. The youngest son,

1273
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 2: you know, as we mentioned earlier, is the one allegedly

1274
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: writing this manifesto. Who cares, I guess is at its lead.

1275
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 2: These are people who did very depraved things and the

1276
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 2: community was really shook and it's a really loving place

1277
01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 2: and they're just trying to rebuild now again all of

1278
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 2: the he's like trials getting pushed and trials getting pushed

1279
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 2: and delay, delay, delay, it's like a little bit of

1280
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 2: a joke on the system, like jokes on who the

1281
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 2: family gets nobody back. They really get the trials ripped

1282
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 2: away from them. So it's even harder to attend. It's

1283
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:17,480
Speaker 2: very hard to keep up with if you're not, you know,

1284
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 2: full time paying attention to these trials. If you're a

1285
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 2: family member, How did they do it?

1286
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:25,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's so much this case. We will absolutely be

1287
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 4: talking more and in depth. But right now, body, you

1288
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 4: have something very important tell us about you.

1289
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:35,959
Speaker 3: Yes, person, I'm talking about a missing person. His name

1290
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 3: is Jeremy Jordaine and he is He went missing in

1291
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen on Halloween night and he was last seen

1292
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 3: at a Halloween party in bemy Gd.

1293
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 2: I don't know how to pronounce that.

1294
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 3: That is a mouthful Minnesota, yep, around min Okay, this

1295
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:54,920
Speaker 3: is kind of strange. Around midnight, he unexpectedly stood up

1296
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 3: and said he didn't want to be there anymore, and

1297
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 3: he took off running from the house. He just stood

1298
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 3: up and said, I don't want to be here anymore,

1299
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 3: and just took off running. Police dogs last tract is

1300
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 3: sent to the middle of the street near an apartment

1301
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 3: complex and he hasn't been seen since.

1302
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 2: Now, it's important to know.

1303
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 3: That you know Jeremy is described he's being kind of

1304
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 3: like a goofy kid who was nice and funny. He

1305
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 3: was like really close to his nieces and nephews. He

1306
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 3: loved playing basketball. They've received the police investigators have received

1307
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 3: hundreds of leads and they've searched by air, water and

1308
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 3: land to find him, and there's been no sign of him.

1309
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 3: Since July of twenty twenty four, Jeremy has appeared on

1310
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:35,679
Speaker 3: billboards across Minnesota, and it's important to know that if

1311
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 3: you wanted, if you wanted to read about Jeremy, you

1312
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:41,639
Speaker 3: can go to the Department of the Interior for the

1313
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 3: Bureau of Indian Affairs, because he is a missing and

1314
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 3: murdered Indigenous person.

1315
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 2: And you know, when you know, we.

1316
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 3: Have talked about missing and murdered in America here, and

1317
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:55,120
Speaker 3: you know, there are usually cases that unfortunately the media

1318
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:59,120
Speaker 3: doesn't really grasp onto and give any attention to. So

1319
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 3: we want to kind of talk about that and bring

1320
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 3: light to those cases, you know, shed some light on

1321
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,679
Speaker 3: these cases. He would now be about twenty six years

1322
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 3: old at the time of his disappearance. He's very tall.

1323
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:12,760
Speaker 3: I mean, he's going to stand out. He's six' five

1324
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 3: around seventy five, pounds so he's very. Lanky he has

1325
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 3: brown hair and brown. Eyes he Is Native american and

1326
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 3: a part of The Minnesota chippewea Tribe Leech Lake, band

1327
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,599
Speaker 3: so that tribe is looking for, him and you, know

1328
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 3: hopefully this get out. THERE i really want people to

1329
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 3: search his. Name his last name is spelled g O

1330
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:36,600
Speaker 3: U r d AI. N and his first name Is, jeremy.

1331
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 4: And he and his family could use all the help

1332
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 4: you can.

1333
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,360
Speaker 2: GIVE i feel like we don't even scratch the surface

1334
01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:43,840
Speaker 2: half the. Time we have more anymore to still get To,

1335
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:46,760
Speaker 2: Tomorrow Karen, reid there might be a. Verdict there might

1336
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 2: be a verdict. Tomorrow body is shaking her. Head, No,

1337
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 2: courtney do you think tomorrow was too?

1338
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,600
Speaker 4: SOON i MEAN i was shrugging my. Shoulders, WELL i

1339
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 4: tell you WHAT i do. NOW i know YESTERDAY i

1340
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 4: said there would be One monday. Today, yeah so both

1341
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 4: of us are wrong For grat's. Body, however now that

1342
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,839
Speaker 4: it hasn't been NOW i think it could potentially extend

1343
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 4: long because if everyone didn't go in with their minds

1344
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 4: made up to, unpack unravel and untangle everything it's at

1345
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 4: the prosecution. Defense it's a. Lot SO i think NOW

1346
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 4: i think it'll go.

1347
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:23,440
Speaker 2: On oh it's so confusing because if you're waiting for someone's,

1348
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 2: fate and you, know we were just talking about the

1349
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 2: Piked in, murders and you, know maybe that's why we're

1350
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 2: also infuriated by This Karen reid, conversation because you, know

1351
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 2: again In Pie county mom who put together a plan

1352
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 2: to murder eight. People she's going to get off in thirty.

1353
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:43,880
Speaker 2: Years And Karen reid with this crazy botched investigation From Nowhere's.

1354
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:46,679
Speaker 2: Land you, know she could be looking at. Life so it's,

1355
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 2: SENTENCING i guess is so, interesting. Right SO i don't

1356
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 2: envy the. JURORS i think they have a really tough

1357
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 2: job ahead of, them AND i guess you've just got

1358
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 2: to hope that they can be as thoughtful without the training, wheels,

1359
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 2: right because some of this stuff is a little in the.

1360
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 2: Weeds so if they're going through, now which you, KNOW

1361
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:05,519
Speaker 2: i would assume they would have, to and you would

1362
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 2: want them to to go through all the different pieces

1363
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 2: of evidence and going back in, time and and and

1364
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:13,639
Speaker 2: and is it hard to do that if their gut

1365
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:16,680
Speaker 2: isn't one way or the. Other it's, tough, right we

1366
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:19,600
Speaker 2: have a talk back About Karen. Reid let's see what

1367
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 2: kind of what can of? Worms this.

1368
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:22,720
Speaker 4: Opens, hey it's every From New.

1369
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 6: York i'm loving your podcast AND i have not missed

1370
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 6: an episode Of True grime. TONIGHT i am so curious

1371
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 6: what's going on with the deliberations for The karen. Retrial

1372
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:34,320
Speaker 6: if each of you are on the, Jury what evidence

1373
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 6: or witnesses would you be focusing. ON i don't wait

1374
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:37,559
Speaker 6: to hear.

1375
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 2: No, no a whole episode. Tomorrow this is a whole

1376
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 2: on as a guest. Tomorrow, yeah that's the that's a

1377
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 2: good question about dropping a. Bomb oh my.

1378
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 4: God all right Now i'm going to study up for.

1379
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:53,720
Speaker 4: TOMORROW i want to give a really good.

1380
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 2: Answer that's that's a really good. Question, actually it is

1381
01:11:56,840 --> 01:11:58,840
Speaker 2: an excellent it's a really good. QUESTION i think It's

1382
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:01,720
Speaker 2: Brian higgins and We proctor back on the. Stands it's the.

1383
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 2: Phone let's just. Jump It's john's. Phone, JOHN i Want

1384
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:05,960
Speaker 2: proctor on the stands for.

1385
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 4: Me it's the woman who changed her testimony and changed

1386
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:12,640
Speaker 4: it to oh mistaken. Memory that and the fact that

1387
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,200
Speaker 4: there are no medical kisses on either.

1388
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:18,840
Speaker 2: Side you can't use trial. One you. Can't you can

1389
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:20,560
Speaker 2: only use trial two to base this.

1390
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 4: On, yes just like just like a, DRE i am

1391
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:26,760
Speaker 4: speaking Just i'm LIKE i am A jurt, now but,

1392
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 4: no speaking from only what has occurred in This she

1393
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:35,640
Speaker 4: was Testified Kelly dever. EXTENSIVELY i watched the whole, thing and, no.

1394
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:42,720
Speaker 2: WILD i don't even know Why i'm here Because i'll

1395
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:44,760
Speaker 2: tell you, why because your boss may have been part

1396
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,280
Speaker 2: of a big cover, up and you kind of alluded

1397
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 2: to that in the first, trial and now all of

1398
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:52,559
Speaker 2: a suddenly forget all of. It she was, LIKE i

1399
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 2: plead the fifth or LIKE i don't even know that's

1400
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:57,640
Speaker 2: a option for, you, Woman but, yeah that was like

1401
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 2: just more embarrassing than it was potentially. Worth you, know

1402
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 2: even if there was no cover, up she sure made

1403
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:04,599
Speaker 2: it look. Shady that's exactly.

1404
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 4: Right so all, right we'll dig in more.

1405
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 2: Tomorrow, NO i really want to dig into that, question

1406
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:11,959
Speaker 2: because make sure you send us some talkbacks for tomorrow

1407
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 2: or leave us message eight eight eight three one crime

1408
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 2: or hit us up on our socials At True Crime

1409
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 2: tonight's show on TikTok And, instagram or At True Crime

1410
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:25,680
Speaker 2: tonight On. Facebook and, tomorrow the trials, continue our friends

1411
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:29,680
Speaker 2: continue to talk About Karen, Reid we're talking about The dad.

1412
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:32,519
Speaker 2: Case we're also going to be unpacking the latest developments

1413
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 2: in The Travis decker. Case and, yes we want to

1414
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 2: hear from, you so join us back. Tomorrow we'll be

1415
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:41,639
Speaker 2: here live for two Hours True Crime, tonight Talking true

1416
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:42,760
Speaker 2: crime all the. Time