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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in, using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones. So we are back Paul, And

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Speaker 1: normally I would ask you how you're doing, but now

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Speaker 1: I don't actually care because I'm so anxious to get

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Speaker 1: back to this case.

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Speaker 2: I want to.

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Speaker 1: I want to know as much as you do what happens.

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Speaker 2: You don't care about how I'm doing. I'm hurt.

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Speaker 1: I do well. You know, in the grand scheme of life,

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Speaker 1: I very much care how you're doing. But right now

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Speaker 1: we have to get back into this case because I

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Speaker 1: left you with a cliffhangery. So I'll do a quick

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Speaker 1: Kate Winkler Dawson Shorthand summary, which is we have doctor

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Speaker 1: Harvey Crippen, and he is a seemingly successful doctor. He's

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Speaker 1: in London with his American wife in nineteen ten. They

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Speaker 1: seem to have a very acrimonious marriage, and she wants

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Speaker 1: to be a star. She is larger than life. He

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Speaker 1: certainly is not. He has taken a mistress who is

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Speaker 1: much more his speed. And Cora, his wife, has told

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Speaker 1: friends that she wants to leave doctor Crippen, and and

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Speaker 1: he is insanely jealous and has such an ego that

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Speaker 1: he certainly would not take kind to someone who wanted

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Speaker 1: to leave him, particularly because they're both entrenched in I

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Speaker 1: don't know about high society, but in moderate society in London,

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Speaker 1: so this would not be good for his ego. And

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Speaker 1: after months of pressuring, we have a detective who has

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Speaker 1: gone to Crippen's house and finds out that they've essentially

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Speaker 1: cleared out, and he and Scotland Yard go in and

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Speaker 1: they start looking for clues and in the cellar, which

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Speaker 1: in Texas we don't have cellars, so I always have

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Speaker 1: to picture in my mind what a seller is. There's

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Speaker 1: too much rock in Texas to have sellers and Austin

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Speaker 1: at least. So they're down in the cellar and under

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Speaker 1: some bricks they find a mutilated corpse and thus begins

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Speaker 1: this really in depth investigation and where you really come in,

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Speaker 1: Paul Hols, because there's a lot of forensics to talk about,

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Speaker 1: and I am ninety nine percent sure I will not

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Speaker 1: be able to answer all of your questions, but I'm

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Speaker 1: sure is hell going to try?

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, I'm looking forward to this because you know,

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Speaker 2: anytime there's a corpse, that's when I start to have

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Speaker 2: my wheel spin and get into the case. So what

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Speaker 2: do you got?

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Speaker 1: Well, this is pretty gruesome. And I've read a lot

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Speaker 1: of gruesome things, but this is pretty gruesome. So here's

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Speaker 1: what the police said. The body that they found that

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Speaker 1: was beneath the bricks in the home cellar. The body

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Speaker 1: was dismembered with surgical precision and was extremely disfigured. It

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Speaker 1: was missing its head, limbs, the entire skeleton, and couldn't

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Speaker 1: even be identified as male or female. But there were

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Speaker 1: allegedly curlers wrapped in long human hair present, as well

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Speaker 1: as feminine pajamas, leading investigators to assume that the remains

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Speaker 1: belonged to a woman. So this was some horrible mutilation.

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Speaker 1: So the entire skeleton, how is that possible? Is that

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Speaker 1: flesh or what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Well, based on what you just said, they don't have

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Speaker 2: a corpse, they have tissue. They have basically part of

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Speaker 2: a body. Now all the bones are missing.

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Speaker 1: It's at the entire skeleton missing, its head, its limbs,

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Speaker 1: entire skeleton couldn't even be identified as a male or female.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like it was really the abdomen oka

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Speaker 1: that was there and that was it. That's the impression

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Speaker 1: I'm getting.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to assume that the torso is present,

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Speaker 2: You've got the ribcage, you've got the vertibral column, possibly

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Speaker 2: the pelvis. But the dismemberment is the four limbs and

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Speaker 2: the head are missing and not present with the corpse.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about that? That is some anger

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Speaker 1: or efficiency, which one.

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Speaker 2: Well, that type of dismemberment is typically seen when you

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Speaker 2: are talking about disposal and you take a look at

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Speaker 2: what is actually missing, the head, the hands. Back in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ten, how are people typically identified. This is at

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Speaker 2: the very beginning of a finger prints, right, So, now

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Speaker 2: that the hands are missing and we see that today

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Speaker 2: in dismemberment cases. I had a case in which I

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Speaker 2: mean five people were killed. Three bodies were dismembered. The

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Speaker 2: heads had been cut off, the jaws had been removed

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Speaker 2: with the teeth, the hands had been removed. But everything

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Speaker 2: was put in Duffel bags, right, so all the necessary

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Speaker 2: components to traditionally identify these bodies was present. The offenders

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Speaker 2: knew enough to do something about the identifying parts, but

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Speaker 2: then we're stupid enough to put those identifying parts back

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Speaker 2: with the rest of the body. You know, in this case,

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Speaker 2: the limbs and the head. These are items for identification

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Speaker 2: as well as they're relatively easy items to put in

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Speaker 2: a package of some sort and transport away from the

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Speaker 2: house versus the larger part of the body. The torso

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Speaker 2: has to be cut into smaller parts in order to

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Speaker 2: be able to as easily transport the torso parts away

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Speaker 2: from the house without being noticed. You know, it's not

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Speaker 2: a large suitcase or carpet that's rolled around a larger

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Speaker 2: part of the body. So this almost sounds like this

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Speaker 2: is a dismemberment that it was partial for body disposal purposes.

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Speaker 2: If this is let's say doctor Crippen doing this and

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Speaker 2: this is Cora's body, Why only get rid of part

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Speaker 2: of the body, right and leave the rest inside the house?

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Speaker 1: They never find the rest, So why hide something so

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Speaker 1: well and then take the risk of keeping the abdomen

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Speaker 1: and leaving weird things like curlers behind and feminine pajamas.

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Speaker 1: It just seems a little counterintuitive for someone who clearly

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Speaker 1: planned this pretty well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this body is found six months after doctor

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Speaker 2: Crippen has left the house, right.

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Speaker 1: This is six months after Cora has last being seen. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so if this is Korra, she's been presumably down there

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Speaker 1: for about six months or so.

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Speaker 2: And is there any description in terms of the pathologist

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Speaker 2: who's looking at the remaining body part as to the

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Speaker 2: state of decomposition, any mummification, anything that could indicate possibly

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Speaker 2: how long this body part had been under down in

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Speaker 2: the cellar.

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Speaker 1: There's no indicator of that. Because let's think about England

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Speaker 1: and let's see, in my case, in nineteen fifty two,

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Speaker 1: John Reginald Christy, the serial killer, killed women and stored

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Speaker 1: them in his house and they became almost mummified because

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Speaker 1: he stored them in January February March when it was

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Speaker 1: very dry and very cold, okay, And there was the smell,

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Speaker 1: but not the kind of smell it would have been

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Speaker 1: like in Texas over the summer. So I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: think of that time period if you're in a cellar

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Speaker 1: and it's cold down in the cellar, and this is

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Speaker 1: not their super hot time period. They didn't give notes

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Speaker 1: on mummification. They did say this, which might give you

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Speaker 1: an idea of the DCOMP. So there is a mark

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Speaker 1: on the torso, the lower abdomen, just a mark. They

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Speaker 1: weren't more specific than that. This is a critical detail,

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Speaker 1: apparently though to the medical examiner or the coroner, whoever's

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Speaker 1: doing this, because Cora had a prominent scar on her abdomen.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what she would have had a scar for.

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Speaker 1: But that is the only connection they can make between

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Speaker 1: Cora and this corpse, aside the fact that she's missing

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Speaker 1: and she lived in this house. There's no other clue. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So what about the d COMP. I mean to see

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Speaker 1: a marking, it must have been a slow decomp, don't

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Speaker 1: you think, I mean six months?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the sellar's going to be cool. Yeah, And what

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Speaker 2: time a month does Cora go missing?

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Speaker 1: End of January and she's found July thirteenth. Now, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what the weather was like back then, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really get super warm until July or August.

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Speaker 1: I don't know in a cellar if it would ever

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Speaker 1: get particularly warm. And when I say warm, I mean

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Speaker 1: eighty five degrees fahrenheit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the sellar location that the time of year

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Speaker 2: from January obviously through the winter months. You know, this

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Speaker 2: is a cool time. It's going to slow down decomposition.

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Speaker 2: There's so many factors to take into consideration, you know,

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Speaker 2: like what kind of insect activity was occurring right now.

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Speaker 2: If they are able to see that her abdomen does

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Speaker 2: have this mark after six months, yeah, that would tend

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Speaker 2: to indicate to me that this decomposition, assuming it's Cora,

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Speaker 2: this is a body that is undergoing a slower decomp

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Speaker 2: than a body let's say that's on the surface, because

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Speaker 2: we can have bodies on the surface that can be

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Speaker 2: completely skeletal in six months with insect activity, carnivor activity,

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Speaker 2: normal decompositional processes. Yeah, okay, so this is interesting. We

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Speaker 2: have a mark that seems to be in the part

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Speaker 2: of the body where Cora has a scar. Now, do

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Speaker 2: they have any other way to identify and confirm that

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Speaker 2: this torso is actually from Cora.

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Speaker 1: Nope, they can't even say this is a male or female. However,

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Speaker 1: I do have a probable cause of death for you,

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Speaker 1: which is surprising. Okay, So in your head, think what

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Speaker 1: is the one thing that they can test for to

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Speaker 1: determine cause of death just in a torso. What are

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Speaker 1: they able to probably pull from that torso to find

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Speaker 1: out a cause of death.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's actually multiple things. If you are dealing with

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Speaker 2: a torso and you have a gunshot wound, okay, you

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Speaker 2: have stab wounds, maybe even blunt force trauma depending on

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Speaker 2: the state, there are multiple things that could be still present,

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Speaker 2: either to the soft tissue or more likely to the

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Speaker 2: bone that would indicate yes, we've had wounding in this area.

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Speaker 2: And then of course there's the possibility of toxicology. Some

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Speaker 2: drugs will remain present for long periods of time after death.

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Speaker 1: Ding ding Ding, You win. The prize is poison. See

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Speaker 1: how smart you are. They're super smart. But I had

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Speaker 1: not thought of the other ones. Yes, of course you

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Speaker 1: know gunshot wounds. But the Home Office, which is one

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Speaker 1: of the departments in the UK, sent over their senior

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Speaker 1: doctor doctor Wilcox, and he tests the torso and finds

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Speaker 1: very high levels of a drug called hyacine, which is

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Speaker 1: a narcotic, a fatal dose in the body. Had you

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Speaker 1: heard of that.

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Speaker 2: I have heard of hyacine. Wasn't real familiar with it,

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Speaker 2: but you know, you let me know before this case. Hey,

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Speaker 2: you look at this drug? Right?

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Speaker 1: I give him homework in case you all didn't know that,

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Speaker 1: And he gets homework every week from me. Please, I

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Speaker 1: don't know anything about this. Can you find out? And

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Speaker 1: he does it thankfully. So.

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Speaker 2: The interesting thing about hyacine is is yes, it has

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Speaker 2: narcotic properties. So hyacine was used in order to put

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Speaker 2: somebody into a state of sedation around this timeframe. It

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Speaker 2: was coupled with morphine in order to be able to

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Speaker 2: help with childbirth, to ease the pain of childbirth. The

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Speaker 2: interesting thing about hyacine, though, even though it's being described

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Speaker 2: as a narcotic, it acts very differently. This is a

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Speaker 2: drug that you know, narcotics such as morphine, you know, heroin, fentanyl,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, can be fatal and high doses relatively speaking,

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Speaker 2: depending on their potency, and they suppress the nervous system

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Speaker 2: that controls breathing, and this is how you die from

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Speaker 2: an opiate overdose. Hyacin does not suppress that aspect of

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Speaker 2: the body. It suppresses this peripheral nervous system related to

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Speaker 2: smooth muscles. GI tract, your intestines, your cardiovascular system, the arteries.

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Speaker 2: They're lined with smooth muscles, and that's where hyacin comes

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Speaker 2: into play. And even when I'm taking a look at

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Speaker 2: hyacin and overdose situations, death is not listed as a

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Speaker 2: complication from over Now it can be, but it seems

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Speaker 2: to be a very poor drug if you intend that

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Speaker 2: drug by itself to kill somebody. So that becomes interesting

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Speaker 2: in that this torso has high levels of hyacine in it.

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Speaker 2: But is that truly the cause of death?

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Speaker 1: Well, and we'll talk about that. There's a lot of speculation,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I have my own ideas about this torso.

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Speaker 1: But this has all become very suspicious because now Scotland

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Speaker 1: Yard has gone and tried to retrace Crippen's steps while

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Speaker 1: he's in the wind with his mistress. So they find

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Speaker 1: chemists in London who fulfilled an order of hyacine for Crippen.

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Speaker 1: He bought a large amount of it in mid January.

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Speaker 1: They had poison books in the nineteen hundreds. I doubt

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Speaker 1: they have them now, But in eighteen hundreds and nineteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: where you know, if you purchase something, you sign it, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's a much more sophisticated way to

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Speaker 1: track who buys what kinds of narcotics and poisons now.

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Speaker 1: But he simply signed the book in his name, but

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Speaker 1: he a large amount, and he said it was for

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Speaker 1: one of the homeopathic pharmaceutical companies that he worked for.

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Speaker 1: So this is again you could argue that this is

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Speaker 1: just part of his job. It is odd that this

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Speaker 1: is the narcotic that is found in this corpse who

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Speaker 1: is in his cellar in his house.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, certainly he has access to this compound just

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Speaker 2: because of his job. But the fact that this torso

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Speaker 2: has it, you know, starts limiting the number of people

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Speaker 2: who you would start looking at. And doctor Crippen, who

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Speaker 2: now is got a mistress, he has access to kra

249
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Speaker 2: after that party, and he also has access to hyacine.

250
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Speaker 2: Those are kind of clues to indicate. Okay, so doctor

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Speaker 2: Crippen needs to be looked at pretty closely in terms

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Speaker 2: of the death of this person who this torso belongs to.

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Speaker 1: So you're suspicious, and you're about to become much more

254
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Speaker 1: suspicious of doctor Crippen. So he and Ethel leave on

255
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Speaker 1: July ninth. They make these discoveries of the torso on

256
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Speaker 1: July thirteenth, four days later, and Crippen and Ethel have

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Speaker 1: decided that they're going to run, and they go to Canada,

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Speaker 1: and Crippen shaves his head and Ethel puts on men's

259
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Speaker 1: clothing and she's not a big woman, she's a tiny woman.

260
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Speaker 1: So they are trying to pass themselves off as father

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Speaker 1: and son on this ship bound for Canada. Even I

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Speaker 1: know this is suspicious behavior.

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Speaker 2: Even I know that I was going to say, that's

264
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Speaker 2: not suspicious at all. No, this is just normal behavior

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Speaker 2: of two people traveling and you know, society wanting to

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Speaker 2: explore the world. Come on, obviously they're on the run.

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Speaker 1: They are, and the crew members saw that they looked

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Speaker 1: awkward and suspicious, and they determined eventually that they were passengers,

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Speaker 1: and they were obviously people who the police have been

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Speaker 1: looking for. And at this point there was a state

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Speaker 1: of the art wireless system called the telegraph, and the

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Speaker 1: ship's captain used the telegraph to communicate with Scotland Yard,

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Speaker 1: saying this is a couple who looks suspicious. We have

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Speaker 1: heard about doctor Crippen being on the run with his mistress.

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Speaker 1: We think that's who this is. And so there is

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Speaker 1: in the New York Times printed the poor doctor Crippen.

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Speaker 1: I don't feel badly for killers, but in this case

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Speaker 1: the descriptions are not very good in the newspaper of him.

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Speaker 1: There's an article printed in the New York Times in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ten that said, many meek looking men with glasses

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Speaker 1: have been looked on with suspicion, and the number of

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Speaker 1: people who have been shadowed by amateur detectives are anxious

283
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Speaker 1: to gain the reward, and the reward was the equivalent

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Speaker 1: of forty thousand dollars now, which is, you know, a

285
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Speaker 1: nice chunk of change.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So the captain is telegraphing this information across the sea

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Speaker 1: towards Canada back to Scotland Yard, and this of course

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Speaker 1: is very exciting to the people in Scotland Yard. So

290
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Speaker 1: now this is turning into a little bit of a chase.

291
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Speaker 2: This is where the suspect doctor Crippen and his accomplice

292
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Speaker 2: and who knows if ethel had any role in the

293
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Speaker 2: actual homicide of the person that this torso belongs to.

294
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Speaker 2: But they're overthinking things. They ended up adopting a disguise

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Speaker 2: that so stood out. This captain was like, oh, this

296
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Speaker 2: doesn't look right. Imagine if doctor Crippen all he did

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Speaker 2: was ditch the glasses, shave his mustache, and wear a cap. Yeah,

298
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Speaker 2: he would have gotten in a way. Nobody wouldn't have

299
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Speaker 2: had any suspicion. You know, this may be TMI. I

300
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,399
Speaker 2: might be burning my my undercover look, but when I

301
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,919
Speaker 2: was at crime con that you were at out in

302
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Speaker 2: Las Vegas. For me to move around, all I did

303
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Speaker 2: was put a face mask on, wear eyeglasses, and style

304
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Speaker 2: my hair differently.

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Speaker 1: You just clue everybody off.

306
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Speaker 2: I was literally walking around with crime con attendees in

307
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Speaker 2: the middle of groups, and they had no idea. It

308
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,840
Speaker 2: was me. It's where you have to be subtle. It's

309
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Speaker 2: like put the little piece of tape in the middle

310
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Speaker 2: of your eyeglasses and that's enough to throw people off.

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Speaker 2: But to have her dress up as this young boy, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was just too much of a tip off. It's

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Speaker 2: just too weird.

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Speaker 1: So I think the combination of their odd looks and

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Speaker 1: Scotland Yard obviously contacting all the ports and the railway

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Speaker 1: stations as much as possible to say look for these

317
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Speaker 1: people on the run and this reward. All of this

318
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Speaker 1: has triggered a big search. And what's so interesting about

319
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Speaker 1: this is thanks to the telegraph, the inspector so you know,

320
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Speaker 1: we know is inspector do the inspectors receiving this information

321
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Speaker 1: and Crippen and Ethel have no idea that number one

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Speaker 1: people know they are on board and that number two

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Speaker 1: inspector do. The man on the case is taking an

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Speaker 1: even faster boat to meet them in Canada because he's

325
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Speaker 1: gotten this information. I know that telegraph does. It seemed

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Speaker 1: like the most exciting sort of detective there is in

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Speaker 1: this time period to receive information on a criminal or

328
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Speaker 1: a suspected criminal. As you would say, there's nothing that

329
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Speaker 1: would have stopped him from walking off that boat and disappearing.

330
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Speaker 1: Even if people were suspicious, they couldn't have stopped him.

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Speaker 1: Only the police could.

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Speaker 2: Do it well, And I'm thinking about detective do you

333
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Speaker 2: know nowadays, of course, we frequently have suspects that have

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Speaker 2: left the state and have traveled across the United States

335
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Speaker 2: or outside of countries, you know, and detectives are having

336
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Speaker 2: to board planes and get to locations. But here detective

337
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Speaker 2: do is having to board a ship and do a

338
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Speaker 2: transatlantic crossing. How long would that take? That must take

339
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Speaker 2: what several days?

340
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Speaker 1: Well you would think so it just said faster steamer.

341
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Speaker 1: I didn't know steamers could be fast. I guess it's

342
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Speaker 1: all relative, isn't it.

343
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Speaker 2: What a scam detective do pool. Do you know he's

344
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Speaker 2: now on this ship. He's lounging on the deck. He's

345
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Speaker 2: you know, sipping his wine, looking at the ocean, going okay,

346
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 2: I've got five more days before I have to you know,

347
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 2: actually do work and arrest this guy. So he's living

348
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Speaker 2: the high life on this cruise ship.

349
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Speaker 1: People are going to be messaging us on approximately how

350
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Speaker 1: long it would have taken. I'm pretty sure to go

351
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Speaker 1: from London to what turned out to be Quebec. So

352
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Speaker 1: of course Inspector Due gets there after lounging. As you said,

353
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Speaker 1: he gets there. He goes to Quebec and he intercepts them,

354
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Speaker 1: and they both seem very surprised, and they are returned

355
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Speaker 1: to England to be put on trial. And doctor Crippen,

356
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna read you this because it becomes a little

357
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 1: important in a little bit. Doctor Crippen is charged with quote,

358
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Speaker 1: feloniously and willfully of their malice, afore thought kill and murder.

359
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 1: One Cora Crippen, otherwise known as Belle Elmore, which is important.

360
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 1: That's her stage name, bell Elmore, the mistress, was also charged,

361
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Speaker 1: knowing that the said defendant Crippen had committed the said felony,

362
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 1: did receive comfort and maintain the said Hawley Harvey Crippen.

363
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 1: So that doesn't sound like accessory. That just says that

364
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 1: sounds like she didn't turn him in when she should

365
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 1: have done the right thing. Yeah, receive comfort and maintain

366
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,359
Speaker 1: so protected him, right? Is that what that would be?

367
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 2: Seek comfort and maintain? Yeah, that's odd language?

368
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 1: Is that harboring a fugitive kind of There may be.

369
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,159
Speaker 2: A component of that. There also may be an accessory

370
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 2: component to it, because you can be charged with accessory

371
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 2: without being somebody who actively participated in the homicide. But

372
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 2: you aided the person who committed the homicide, and you

373
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 2: knowingly aided that person, You had knowledge that that person

374
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 2: committed that crime, and you somehow aided them and or

375
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,640
Speaker 2: lied to authorities in order to aid that person. That's

376
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 2: an interesting charge, but fundamentally, now you have doctor Crippen

377
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: arrested YEP for the murder of Cora. Though right now

378
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 2: I'm not convinced they've actually identified this torso as Cora.

379
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 1: I don't know what the evidence is. My argument is

380
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: a defense attorney would be, how do we know that

381
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 1: this is not the remnants of some anatomy professor who

382
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: had a body, a fresh body and put it down here.

383
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 1: How do we know that this is not something that

384
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 1: Krippin does, that he's bought bodies, which I've done stories on.

385
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 1: You know this because of the way it was dissected.

386
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 1: It just I don't think they can connect this to

387
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: Kora just yet. And I'm not sure they could really

388
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: connect this to murder, even though there's a fatal dose

389
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: of this poison. The way you're describing it, it sounds

390
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: like an opiate. Could have this been some sort of

391
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 1: weird accidental overdose and then the body was sold to

392
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: an anatomy professor who used it and then discarded it.

393
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 1: I know that seems far fetched, but I'm just thinking of,

394
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: like some defense attorney, what kind of argument there would be.

395
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 2: There's a lot of holes. In terms of the identification

396
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 2: of the torso as being core at this point, at

397
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,959
Speaker 2: least relative to modern technology. Most certainly we could identify

398
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 2: this torso today first and foremost DNA could be utilized.

399
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 2: But back in nineteen ten, all they've got is a

400
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 2: market or abdomen in the same general area that Cora

401
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 2: had a scar. For me, this does not pass muster

402
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: that an identification of this body has actually occurred, and

403
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 2: then the state of the body. Could it have been

404
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 2: somebody that had Maybe it's a Maybe it's a homicide

405
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: victim that was buried underneath the house by the previous occupant.

406
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: We don't know because they can't tell what the time

407
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: of death. We don't know when this person died. I

408
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: think because it was well preserved in that cellar, so

409
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: they were not able to definitively say yes, this happened

410
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: February first or January thirty first, even within months because

411
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: of the way it was preserved.

412
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 2: But the way we're talking right now is to prove

413
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:48,879
Speaker 2: a case in court, but most certainly investigatively, detective do

414
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 2: is going I've got a missing wife, I've got a

415
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 2: doctor with a mistress on the run. I find a

416
00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: human body or part of human body in that person's cell. Ye,

417
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 2: I'm on the right track. I'm not doubting this is

418
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 2: Cora as an investigator at this point, but I have

419
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: to be able to prove a crime has been committed,

420
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 2: that Corera has actually been a victim of homicide, that

421
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 2: that corpse is actually Cora, and that doctor Crippen is

422
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 2: responsible for killing Cora. You know. So there's still a

423
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 2: lot of work at this point that needs to be

424
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 2: done by Detective do So. On the ship back from

425
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,719
Speaker 2: Quebec to London, doctor do while he's sipping his wine

426
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 2: on the deck, is now having to think about what

427
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 2: are the next steps to make this case work.

428
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 1: All the things that you just rattled off are exactly

429
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: what attracted the media to this case, which was called

430
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: the nineteen ten O. J. Simpson murder trial case. There's

431
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: no why, Bronco.

432
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it was. It was the trial of the

433
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 2: century of nineteen ten and then nineteen ninety five O. J. Simpson,

434
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 2: who served it by being the trial of the century. Okay,

435
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 2: it's a half century. They made a mistake. It was

436
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 2: a half century, I think. Okay.

437
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: So Crippen during this trial, he's asked a series of questions.

438
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: Of course, why had he not reported his wife missing? Well,

439
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: I thought she went to Chicago with her lover. She

440
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: had said she was going to leave me. I was

441
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: embarrassed to admit it to anybody. Well, then, why had

442
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: Coorra not gotten in touch with the sisters who she

443
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: was very close with? And Crippen said, well, I think

444
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: she was ashamed of having the affair and of leaving me,

445
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 1: because Cora really cared about appearances. So answer number three.

446
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: When he is asked about the poison about the Hiocene,

447
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: he says that he gives it to patients for anxiety,

448
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: which seems to tally with what you're saying. It could

449
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: be right solutely. The problem is is he can't point

450
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 1: to Paul Holes being his patient receiving it for anxiety.

451
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: There's no one he can call to the stand and

452
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: request we'll give testimony saying yes, doctor Crippen gave me

453
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: that for fe anxiety. So really there's no reason for

454
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: him to have that. He can't prove that he gave

455
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: it to one particular person or even to this pharmaceutical

456
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: company he was talking about.

457
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: You know, once this torso was found to high levels

458
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: of hyacin in it. Now it's well, what is the

459
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 2: source of the hyacin? Now this is getting back into

460
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 2: that house and seeing if the source of the hyacin

461
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: is still present. That's just part of the CSI one

462
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: oh one aspect is, oh, we've got new information. We

463
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: may have overlooked the hyacin as having any relevance, but

464
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 2: now it has relevance. I want to get back into

465
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: that house and make sure I document and collect that

466
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: because it is showing that within the house where the

467
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: body is found, there was a source of this drug

468
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 2: inside of it.

469
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,479
Speaker 1: I also thought, I wondered if he's an addict and

470
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: that's why he bought a large amount and didn't acknowledge,

471
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 1: Because I know this sounds odd, but admitting to addiction

472
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: in that time period is almost worse than being a

473
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: murder suspect. For a doctor, that would have been very difficult.

474
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: Sure, God, hyacin wouldn't.

475
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 1: Be your first choice, I guess, would it for addiction?

476
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 2: No, it wouldn't be, though you know, I'm looking at

477
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: the possible effects, and euphoria is something, so I'm not

478
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: seeing anything related to that. It's commonly abused for recreational purposes,

479
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 2: But most certainly it appears that it could have an

480
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: effect on somebody who could enjoy the feeling that they have,

481
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: and the fact that it really has a low potential

482
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: for overdose. It would be a drug that potentially a

483
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: doctor would abuse and potentially abuse in high amounts for

484
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 2: the euphoric aspect. Yeah, but it'd be a poor drug

485
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 2: to use to kill somebody based on what I'm seeing,

486
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: I almost I'm thinking out loud right now. But let's

487
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 2: say doctor Crippen got this large amount of hyacin, he

488
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: gave it to Kora after that party, that has the

489
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 2: sedative effects to where now she is she sedated and

490
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 2: maybe sedated to the point where she's unresponsive.

491
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: And she's probably been drinking to begin with.

492
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 2: Sure, now a simple smothering, strangulation or even dismemberment while

493
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: she's still alive is a possibility.

494
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: I knew you were going to say that, Oh you did,

495
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: we know everything? That he could have shot her in

496
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: the head. I mean, we don't know, because everything's gone

497
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: except for that Torso. One thing that I think was

498
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: really interesting. There are a couple of things. One when

499
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,479
Speaker 1: obviously the prosecutor said, well, who is that body if

500
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: it's not Cora, he said, I have no idea. We

501
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: were gone all the time. Anybody could have come in,

502
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: some degenerate and I could have just broken in, gotten

503
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: into the cellar. I'm assuming they're probably windows. A lot

504
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: of sellers they have little windows kind of for air,

505
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: gotten in and we would have never known about it.

506
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: So he was very dismissive and didn't seem alarmed at

507
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: all that there was a random torso in his cellar.

508
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: He is smart enough to be able to answer away

509
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: a lot of these questions. One of the things that

510
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: I think was interesting was that also when they said

511
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: that this dismemberment happened with surgical precision, he said, I'm

512
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: not a surgeon. I had some experience, but not really.

513
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: I didn't have enough. I was not some incredible surgeon.

514
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: I took anatomy like everybody else did. So go talk

515
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: to the other doctors that are in this city.

516
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: That is a pet peeve of mine is anytime there's

517
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: dismemberment right now, you have or it must have been

518
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: a medical doctor because it was surgically precise, and your

519
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: general physicians just like what doctor Crippen is saying, Well, no,

520
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: they're not surgeons. They've had anatomy, they've done dissection of cadavers.

521
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: You know, in modern medical school, I'm not sure exactly

522
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: what doctor Crippen would have been exposed to. But surgeons

523
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: and doctors their role is not to dismember a body.

524
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: They have the anatomic knowledge to do it more effectively

525
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: than the general layperson. But take a look in our

526
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: society or even the societies in England back in nineteen ten,

527
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: who's more experienced that the dismemberment of bodies than medical doctors.

528
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: You are dealing with butchers. You're dealing with hunters, and

529
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: they can be very effective at dressing down a body

530
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 2: and doing it very precisely. So just because a body

531
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: has been dismembered. The one case that I brought up

532
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: before in which I had three bodies dismembered, well they

533
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: just used power tools and just saw it through long

534
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 2: bones and everything else. It's obviously nobody there's no skill

535
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: that's being demonstrated in that situation. But when you have

536
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: a body that's been dismembered and this articulate through joints

537
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: or other parts of the body that a knife or

538
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: some sort of tool could cut through easily, and effectively

539
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: and limit the amount of bloodshed. Or you have a

540
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: dissection of the body where now you're having maybe internal

541
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: organs being removed, like what you do when you are

542
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: dressing down a deer. There's many, many people who possess

543
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: those skill sets that have no medical training whatsoever. I've

544
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 2: studied and I've had an anatomy class. I've been to

545
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: many autopsies. I could probably dismember a body better than

546
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: the average person, but I've never done it before. I've

547
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 2: never been to medical school, you know. So this is

548
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: where when people jump to, oh my god, in this case,

549
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: it's got to be a doctor that did this. I

550
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: don't know. Hold on here, you know, no, I disagree

551
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: with that unless there is something that is so particular

552
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: that only specialized training would demonstrate that it has to

553
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: be somebody within this particular skill set. It's like, nah, uh,

554
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: it's not that narrow of a suspect pool.

555
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: I agree. And this is another thing about that Torso

556
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: there were dueling experts, which we talk about a lot

557
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: on this show, experts saying completely different things, and then

558
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: the jury or the judge is completely confused because they

559
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: don't know who to believe. Because You've got two people

560
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: who supposedly have really great credentials on the stand dueling

561
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: experts about this marking on the torso. So the prosecutor

562
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: brought experts in, including Bernard Spillsbury, who is a legend.

563
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: Oh I know that name.

564
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: So they have these experts, including Spillsbury, come in and

565
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: say this was a scar on the abdomen. Okay, then

566
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: you've got defense experts come in and say, no, it's

567
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: not it's not a scar. So clearly you couldn't definitively

568
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: say it was a scar. Here's my question, looking at

569
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: this from a global perspective, if you are doctor Crippen

570
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: and you know that at a minimum, Cora's doctor is

571
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: going to be able to look at the abdomen and

572
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: say this matches her marking. When you have done all

573
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: this other work, getting rid of the head, cutting off

574
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: the legs, cutting off the hands, getting rid of fingerprints,

575
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: why would you leave an identifying marker at all on

576
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: this torso? If this is your wife and you're trying

577
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: to cover it up. Doesn't make sense to me.

578
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 2: It is an oversight, for sure. There's plenty of examples

579
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: that of bodies in which not only have you seen

580
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 2: like heads, hands removed to prevent identification. You see tattoos

581
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: cut out. Yeah, and so any prominent scar that would

582
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: be identifiable by a loved one would also be something

583
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 2: that an intelligent offender would likely cut out. Now, was

584
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 2: this torso still clothed? I doubt it with the amount

585
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 2: of dismemberment.

586
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: There was some hair. They couldn't tell if it was

587
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: male or female. But then again, it feels planted, women's curlers,

588
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: women's pajamas. It's just a random I don't know, it

589
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: just isn't It seems odd like they're really trying to

590
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: throw someone off. If this does happen to be found, Okay,

591
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: nothing else, nothing else that can I know, nothing else

592
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: that can tie you to Quorra.

593
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: Do you know? Was this ever conclusively proved to be

594
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: KAA no, the sort of I shorthand all the rest

595
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 2: of this.

596
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: There's no way to prove that this is Quorra. And

597
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 1: this is the corpus DELECTI no body, no crime argument

598
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: from the defense attorney because they can't say that this

599
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: is a murder victim definitively, they don't know who this

600
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: person is and they can't prove that Krippen was the

601
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: one responsible for it to begin with. Okay, if you're

602
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: the judge in this, aren't you thinking that, aren't you

603
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: saying why this doesn't really there's not enough evidence to

604
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: hang this guy?

605
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: Well, not necessarily, you know, so corpus delecti. There's this

606
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 2: myth out there that if you never recover homicide victim's body,

607
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: you can't charge somebody with murder. Right, that's patently false.

608
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 2: Most certainly, prosecutors, if there's sufficient other evidence that a

609
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: homicide has occurred and that the defendant or the suspect

610
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: before being charged is responsible, they can most certainly move

611
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 2: forward with charging that person with murder of some sort

612
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 2: for a second, depending on the circumstances. So really the

613
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: corpus delecti standard is more along the lines of is

614
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: their proof And I know attorneys out there are going

615
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: to just rip me apart, but is the body of

616
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 2: evidence to prove that a crime has actually occurred and

617
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: that the person being charged is responsible with the crime.

618
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 2: It really doesn't have anything to do was there a

619
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: body present. It's more the body of the crime, the

620
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: information about the crime. In this case, I would say

621
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: that there's sufficient evidence to say yes, a crime has occurred.

622
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: We have a dismembered torso in the basement. We have

623
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 2: a missing wife. We have a doctor and his mistress

624
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: that went on the run and went through this bizarre

625
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: disguise process. He's making all sorts of excuses. He bought

626
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: the poison, right, Yeah, at high levels of hyacin in

627
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: the torso is something that they are able to prove

628
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 2: that he did. They probably have a sufficient corpus delecti

629
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: in order to proceed with charging him and prosecuting him

630
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 2: for murder, at least here in the United States. Obviously

631
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: England's different, but that's where I'm going. Okay, this is

632
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 2: a situation to where yes, you possibly could charge murder

633
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: even though Cora's full body has never been found in

634
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 2: this day and age. First, I want to make sure

635
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 2: that this is Korra, not somebody else in the basement.

636
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 2: But if it's Cora, then all of a sudden, exponentially

637
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 2: the case against doctor Crippen, I think becomes stronger.

638
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: I think you're probably right, and I would say that

639
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: the jury agreed. So they were out for about twenty

640
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: seven minutes. Ohie, Okay, he was found guilty. The Crown

641
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: prosecutor alleged that Crippen poisoned Cora, dismembered her in the bath,

642
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: and then the bones and the limbs were burned in

643
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: the kitchen fire, fireplace fire. He took the head with

644
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: him on his transatlantic trip and dropped the head overboard

645
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: before they got to Canada. None of this was proven.

646
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: There's no remnants anything anywhere. They have a tourso and

647
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: that is it. That is it. That is it. But

648
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: he's found guilty.

649
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,720
Speaker 2: No witness statements. Krippen never admitted. Ethel never admitted to these,

650
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: you know, the burning of the bone, nothing, the kitchen,

651
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: the head being dropped in the ocean.

652
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: He said, I'm innocent, and so did she. He was

653
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: hanged a month afterward, and Ethel got off. She was

654
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: no longer an accessory. They just acquitted her as an accessory.

655
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: I just think there wasn't enough evidence. I do not

656
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: even know what the evidence was against Ethel except she

657
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: was dating this guy who was on the run, and

658
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: she was willing to dress up like a little boy, yeah,

659
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: because she wanted to be with him. So I think

660
00:37:58,719 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: they just let it go.

661
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: You know, a case that comes to mind is Lacy

662
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: Peterson Scott Peterson. Yeah, the mistress Amber Fry had nothing

663
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 2: to do with Lacy's case. Should never be under suspicion,

664
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: should never be charged with a crime. I don't even

665
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: think she knew that he was married to Lacy at

666
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: the time. And then he does the goofy dyes his hair,

667
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 2: has large amounts of cash. Is down you know, by

668
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: the Mexican border. You know, he's he's doing some kind

669
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: of similar things that doctor Crippen was doing. Going well

670
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: in cases I had become under you know, under suspicion.

671
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: I'm getting out of the country.

672
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,919
Speaker 1: And I think that this case became very notorious for

673
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: decades and decades and decades, and then it became a

674
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: little controversial for a couple of reasons. Over the years,

675
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: different forensic experts have taken a shrine to Crippen's case

676
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: and wanted to take a look at it, including this

677
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: guy who's a toxicologist named John Treustrail. And John Treustrail

678
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: thought that something was odd about this case. He said

679
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: that he has a database of one one hundred poisoning

680
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: cases and this is the only one he's heard of

681
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: the dismemberment. So this alerted him and he wanted to

682
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: start working on it. So what do you think about

683
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: that theory where he just said, this is not the

684
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: right thing here. This is not a guy who would

685
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: have done this, and poisoners don't dismember.

686
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: Dismemberment in this situation is to hide the crime. It's

687
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: about self preservation. This is not a behavior that is

688
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: linked with the violence in the case. My wheelhouse, of course,

689
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: is your sexually motivated, fantasy motivated crimes where you have

690
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: behaviors that follow the fantasy, and those behaviors and that

691
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 2: fantasy don't necessarily mesh with what the offender has to

692
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: do in order to control and kill the victim. There's

693
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 2: other aspects that that offender is doing. In this case,

694
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: this is an elimination homicide. This is to get rid

695
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 2: of this person qorra in order to change your life

696
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 2: and move forward. And now the motivation of the offender

697
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 2: and committing this type of crime is to do it

698
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 2: in a way in which they're not going to get caught,

699
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,959
Speaker 2: and that's what it appears that doctor Crippen did. And

700
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 2: the dismemberment component was to in essence get rid of

701
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: the body to where it would never be found. I

702
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: just I think he's interrupted. Okay, if Crippen was left

703
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 2: with more time, I think the rest of that body

704
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: would have been gone. It's puzzling to me. Why is

705
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 2: he leaving the torso behind and just getting rid of

706
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: the other parts. This would be digging into the circumstances.

707
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 2: Is he having so much public notoriety, so much media attention,

708
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: that he doesn't even dare to load up the horse

709
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: carriage or the model ty or whatever was. You know,

710
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: he had access to a nineteen ten, which, as I know,

711
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: over here and it's over here in the United States.

712
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: But I just don't have the ability to avoid public

713
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 2: scrutiny if I do something suspicious and I've got body

714
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: parts with me. Yeah, that is a real life scenario

715
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: that he may have been dealing with because of the

716
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 2: notoriety that's occurring in this case. But to draw a

717
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: conclusion that poisoners never dismembered, no, this is not something

718
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 2: that you can conclude from that each offender is going

719
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: to do what they think is in their best interest

720
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 2: for self preservation. When you are dealing with an organized, intelligent,

721
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: and sophisticated offender, and that's what doctor Crippen is. He

722
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: made mistakes, but he still is thinking about what he

723
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: needs to do in order to be able to move

724
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: on with his life with his true love Ethel. He

725
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: is thinking about how can I get away with this

726
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 2: and move on with my life? And the dismemberment aspect,

727
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: I think is part of what he was doing for

728
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: self preservation.

729
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: Well, and I agree with you. I think it's handy

730
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: to say, well, this never happens. As soon as you

731
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 1: say this never happens, is when it happens. And I

732
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: understand that's toxicologists. He's looking for patterns and all of

733
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: this regardless of whether we agree with him or not.

734
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: He took this a step further. Listen to this. This

735
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: is going to make you very excited. He teamed up

736
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: with a DNA analyst. Yay, it's a big smile. I

737
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: like it when you smile. You've had a big smile.

738
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: Now now talking your language. So this took up painstaking

739
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: two years. They analyzed and isolated the mitochondrial DNA from

740
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: the human remains that were preserved. Okay, so first, before

741
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: I get to the punchline, tell me about mitochondrial DNA

742
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: and how we use it for criminal cases.

743
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's two sources of DNA within a human cell.

744
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: There's the DNA that is found within the nucleus of

745
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: a cell. This is what encodes for us. Half of

746
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 2: that nuclear DNA comes from your mom, half of it

747
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 2: from your dad. That's across the twenty three chromosomes. Mitochondrial DNA.

748
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 2: There's these power generating what are called organelle within the

749
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 2: cell itself, and it turns out, well, they actually have

750
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 2: their own source of DNA, this mitochondrial DNA, and it

751
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 2: doesn't come from the dad. It only comes from the mom,

752
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 2: so it's maternally inherited. So mitochondrial DNA is something that

753
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: genealogists have used in researchers into ancestral origins of the

754
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: human population. The advantage of mitochondrial DNA within a criminal

755
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 2: situation is that there's thousands of times more mitochondrial DNA

756
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: per cell the nuclear DNA. So if I have a

757
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 2: sample let's say like this torso or hairs that are

758
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: present from this nineteen ten case, there's a chance that

759
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 2: the nuclear DNA has just absolutely degraded. But because there's

760
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 2: so much more mitochondrial DNA present at the beginning, there's

761
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 2: a greater chance that there's still mitochondrial DNA exists today,

762
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 2: so I can go after mitochondrial DNA typing and go, oh,

763
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:09,959
Speaker 2: I've got a result. Now that result because it's maternally inherited,

764
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 2: many people have that same mitochondrial DNA type that are

765
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: within that maternal side of the family and other families

766
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 2: that can be linked along the genealogical lineage. But it

767
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 2: helps at least give some information. Let's say mitochondrial DNA

768
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: testing off of this came back to be within Cora's

769
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 2: maternal lineage, then that helped support that this torso is

770
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 2: likely from Cora.

771
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: So what happens is, I don't know if you remember

772
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 1: me mentioning this, but Cora had some sisters, and her

773
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: sisters had children, and they had children. Sure, so the

774
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: toxicologists and the DNA expert compared the DNA to Cora

775
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: Crippen's grand nieces mitochondrial and they were not the same

776
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: as what was on the torso.

777
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: So now it's either these remains are not Cora or

778
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 2: Core is not biologically related to those supposed sisters. And

779
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: we run into this all the time. YEP.

780
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: Now this is what's interesting. There are naysayers for this

781
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 1: research who say their certificates are not accurate. We couldn't

782
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: find a birth certificate for Cora Crippen. We don't know

783
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: one hundred percent for sure, So all we know is

784
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: that these particular young people were not related connected to

785
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: the torso. However, they did also use the nuclear DNA

786
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: and that found that that torso was of a man,

787
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: not of a woman.

788
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 2: Oh cheese, hold on here, see that's the wow moment. Okay.

789
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 2: So when you know modern DNA testing is done today,

790
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: it's it's shorthandem repeats. There's also this Emila jen and

791
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 2: marker that is being tested within this testing process of

792
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 2: modern DNA, and it does look for the X and

793
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 2: Y chromosomes. So if they're finding a Y chromosome, this indicates, okay,

794
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 2: biological male. Obviously it would not be Coorra if she

795
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 2: was truly a biological female, right, you know, which I'm

796
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 2: not doubting at this point. Now, of course, I want

797
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 2: to know, well, what is the sample that was preserved

798
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 2: over time? Right?

799
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: How was it preserved? It couldn't have been well, what

800
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: in tupperware? What would they have done in nineteen ten?

801
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: The how is not as important because how it's preserved

802
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 2: is not going to change a female DNA profile to

803
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: a male DNA profile. It's more of the voracity of

804
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 2: the sample. Can this sample be truly tracked back to

805
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: the torso found in the cellar? In Crippen's cellar.

806
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: There's room for doubt, though, Isn't that the punchline here?

807
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: As WHOA That would have been reasonable doubt if we

808
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: had had that information in nineteen ten at his trial,

809
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: don't you think?

810
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, you know. But then that's a new investigation

811
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: that gets opened up. Yeah, let's say this is a

812
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 2: male Tourso then I'm questioning, well, who did doctor Crippen kill?

813
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: That was a man?

814
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: You're still on him being a killer? What if it's

815
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: just some say this is why we're a good team.

816
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: It's a body in his cellar, you know, I have

817
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 2: to eliminate him. First.

818
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: People didn't lock their doors traditionally in nineteen ten, and

819
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: anybody could have gotten in there. Who knows it could

820
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: have been Please this would have been I think a

821
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: little too early in London for the mobsters to come in.

822
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: But you know, I don't know. I mean, yes, I

823
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: think probably he was responsible for something, but he was

824
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: on trial for killing his wife and there is now

825
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: enough reasonable doubt to say that was not Cora and

826
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 1: I have a tiny bit more information. Go here we go,

827
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: because I know you like it with sing things on

828
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 1: you at the very end. So just for my due diligence,

829
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: and our fantastic Maren who is our fantastic researcher found

830
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 1: this that one of the points here is this research

831
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: that had been done with the DNA analyst and with

832
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,959
Speaker 1: the toxicologist has never been peer reviewed and it never

833
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: appeared in a scientific journal, which means something, right, I

834
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: don't know what. I just want to put that out

835
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: there that this was not something that was in AMA

836
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 1: or some massive journal. This was just a study done.

837
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 2: If validated scientific DNA testing methods were used and a

838
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 2: credential DNA analyst did the work an issue to report.

839
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: I think there's some credence to put on it. It

840
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 2: does not need to be published within a peer reviewed

841
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 2: scientific journal as if it's some sort of research study

842
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 2: for me to start putting some weight on it. Of course,

843
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 2: I would like to see because of the age of

844
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 2: the case, I would like to see redundancy, to be

845
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 2: able to see can another independent person replicate the results? YEP,

846
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 2: let me throw something out at you.

847
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: This is late in the game to throw something out

848
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: at me, don't you think.

849
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: Assuming this torso is truly male, coor is missing, Cora

850
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 2: is likely dead. Crippen is doing his little fugitive thing

851
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 2: with Ethel. But he's a jealous, jealous person.

852
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I see where you're going.

853
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 2: Torso is Cora's lover. Yeah, that Krippen decided. After he

854
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 2: took care of Cora and actually properly disposed of her body,

855
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 2: he's now getting rid of the man that was the

856
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 2: origin of the jealousy. In this day and age, if

857
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 2: there's still sample remaining, we can do SNIPS single nucleotide

858
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 2: polymorphism testing. That's the genealogy type of DNA profile. We

859
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 2: could today identify this torso even if it's a female.

860
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 2: Let's say it's Cora, but she's adopted or whatever else

861
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 2: and is not biologically related to these great nieces that

862
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: were used to compare and say, oh nope, that's not

863
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: the same. But with the Y chromosome present right now,

864
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: assuming no contamination or anything else, that this is a

865
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 2: bona fide sample from that torso found in Crippen's basement,

866
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 2: we could identify that male. And if we could show

867
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 2: historically that this is a male that knew Korra, and

868
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 2: possibly you have information that this is a male that

869
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 2: Korra was having a relationship with, then I think now

870
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 2: doctor Crippen is on the hook not only for Cora's

871
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: homicide but also for her lover's homicide.

872
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: I like that theory. I think that's an interesting theory.

873
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: So the very last bit of this is the very

874
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: persistent rumors after Crippen was hanged of what happened with Cora,

875
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: and the prevailing rumors were that there was someone who

876
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: used the name Belle Rose. Remember she was Belle Elmore

877
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: Belle Rose, who was reportedly living with Cora's sister in

878
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: New York. So a woman named Belle Rose is living

879
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: with Cora's sister, biological sister as far as we know,

880
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 1: in New York, and that there was someone using that

881
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: same name that came across to the US via Bermuda

882
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 1: to Ellis Island in nineteen ten.

883
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: So is it possible is that Belle Rose is Cora?

884
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,959
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's what we're saying. That she did

885
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: do it, she left, that she finally left him, and

886
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 1: she came and lived with her sister.

887
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 2: Who's the Torso that's the big mystery. Now you go, okay,

888
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 2: so did Cora kill a lover, put her in Crippen's

889
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 2: basement and then get the hell out of Dodge and

890
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 2: Crippen is this innocent Patsy in this whole thing who's

891
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 2: hanged for Cora's homicide? And he literally was just deciding, oh,

892
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 2: she left me, and now I've got this Ethel that

893
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: I'm really in love with, and I'm going to live,

894
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 2: you know, live the rest of my life. And next thing,

895
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 2: you know, the state basically pulls this guy's head off

896
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 2: in the hanging.

897
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 1: I don't know is the answer. I have no idea.

898
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 2: Well, but the answers are out there with modern technology.

899
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: Okay, you call Scotland Yard and I'll take the notes

900
00:51:58,719 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: and then we're.

901
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 2: Okay, we will put an end to this mystery.

902
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: I think it's a fascinating case. I really do. And

903
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: I like cases where you just don't know. I told

904
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,439
Speaker 1: you at the beginning of this, people up and leave.

905
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: They've done it forever and there's no way to trace them. Sure,

906
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: very frequently in nineteen ten, it would have been difficult

907
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: to trace her and so there was that. But then

908
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: you're right. The one fact we do know, the one

909
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: definitive thing we do know, is there is a torso

910
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: in doctor Crippen's cellar, and it had a fatal dose.

911
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: We don't know if that's what killed it, but it

912
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 1: had a fatal dose of a poison that he had

913
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: in his possession at one point, I would.

914
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: Say it had a high dose of hyacin, which would

915
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 2: sedate and allow an offender to control that sedated person

916
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 2: in order to kill and or dismember, you know, getting

917
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 2: back to in some ways, it's victimology. So let's say

918
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 2: Cora is the killer of a lover. She is utilizing

919
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: this sedative hyacin in order to get that man under

920
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 2: control so she could kill and start the dismemberment process.

921
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: But also doctor Crippen is this meek, not very physically

922
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: robust man, and let's say he does go after one

923
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 2: of Korra's male lovers and he recognizes he physically can't

924
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 2: subdue that person, and so he uses the hyacin in

925
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 2: order to be able to do it. Randy Kraft, Orange County,

926
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 2: the Angel of Death out of Orange County. He is

927
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 2: a meek little man, yet he's killing marines that are

928
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 2: much younger, much bigger, much stronger than he is. And

929
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 2: how is he doing it. He is intoxicating them with

930
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 2: alcohol and drugs to the point of sedation. So right now,

931
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 2: with this Torso potentially being Male, I'm now thinking I've

932
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 2: got two suspects. I've got Cora and I've got doctor Crippen,

933
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,439
Speaker 2: and it all depends on the identity of who Male

934
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 2: was and then how long that Torso had been dead.

935
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to give a huge buried bone shout

936
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: out to our researcher for this who came up with

937
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 1: some really great details I had not heard before, Maren,

938
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: who was incredible. And I want to just go ahead

939
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 1: and give a big shout out to our producer. We

940
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: haven't introduced you all yet, alexis Amiosi. We also have

941
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:26,800
Speaker 1: an incredible mixer, Ryobaum, and we have just a team

942
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: that puts together I think just this product, this, you know,

943
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: the information that we're able to give to you is

944
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 1: thanks to this team here, and I'm so happy to

945
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: have everyone. And this was the case that I was

946
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: most excited about to talk to you about. Paul, and

947
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: you did not fail because he came up with some

948
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 1: ideas I had not thought of, honestly, So I would

949
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 1: love this, solve this. I would love to finally put

950
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 1: a rest to all of it. But I also like

951
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: a good mystery, an enduring mystery. I don't want to

952
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 1: know who Jack the Ripper is. There are things that

953
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 1: I want to remain a mystery, and this might be

954
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 1: a mystery.

955
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 2: I always want the answer, and unfortunately, with some of

956
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 2: these older cases, we will never have an answer. And

957
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 2: I think that you know, like you brought up Jack

958
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 2: the Ripper, I think right now, with what I know

959
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,720
Speaker 2: about the case and the absolute lack of verifiable evidence

960
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,240
Speaker 2: in the case, I think that will forever be a mystery.

961
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,399
Speaker 1: Well, what a fantastic Halloween episode for us to end

962
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 1: on with doctor Crippen and now we'll be less spooky unfortunately, No,

963
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: just kidding. We're always going to be spooky moving forward,

964
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 1: even if it's not October, We're always going to be spooky.

965
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: I hope to always surprise you, that's my goal. So

966
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to hearing you gasp like you always

967
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: do next week.

968
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 2: That damn why chromosome? What the hell's going on there?

969
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 2: I'm more so I've never expected that, so you know now,

970
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, yeah, I will reach out to Scotland

971
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 2: the Yard and say, hey, you know, let's see what

972
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 2: we can do. Let's get this answer. Kate doesn't want

973
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 2: to know. She wants a mystery. I want to know.

974
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 1: You can let me know next week.

975
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

976
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

977
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,479
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot

978
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones Sources.

979
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

980
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

981
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

982
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

983
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

984
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

985
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

986
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

987
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

988
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

989
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

990
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

991
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now