1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: on the b n F podcast. Today we talk electric vehicles. 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: They come in a lot of forms, from the car 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: you drive, to the bus you ride on, to the 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: electric scooter or bike you take to work, to the 6 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: electric truck your packages or food are delivered on. So 7 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about b an f's annual 8 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: Electric Vehicle Outlook and dive into more detail on charging networks. 9 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: After all, if you have any v you're going to 10 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: need to be able to charge it. I get to 11 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: speak with Ryan Fisher, one of the analysts who helped 12 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: write the report and our lead analyst on electric vehicle 13 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: charging infrastructure at b a F. We talk about the 14 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: company's installing chargers, the grid EV rollout, policy recommendations, semiconductor shortages, 15 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen, and Ukraine. As a reminder, BIENNF does not 16 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: provide investment or strategy advice, and we have a full 17 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: disclaimer at the end of the show. But now let's 18 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: speak with Ryan about electric vehicles and charging networks and 19 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: what this could all look like in the future. Ryan, 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: thanks for coming on Switched On today. I don't know well, 21 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. This is our first time having 22 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: you on the show, and we're going to drill down 23 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: into some parts of this Electric Vehicle Outlook that we 24 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: do every year on areas that you know more specifically 25 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,559 Speaker 1: than maybe other parts of the report and other parts 26 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: of the team, which is around the charging networks. But 27 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: before we get into that, let's some way out and 28 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: let's talk about the Electric Vehicle Outlook and really what 29 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: are we trying to accomplish with it and who are 30 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: we speaking to when we write this report every year. 31 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: So it's kind of got this name the Electric Vehicle Outlook, 32 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: but it could quite easily be called the Transport Outlook. 33 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: It includes everything from how far are people traveling, what 34 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: modes of transport are they using, and more and more, 35 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: so we kind of go into the impact. One of 36 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: the key things we're also doing now is looking at 37 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: net zero, so saying, well, what kind of happens in 38 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: an economic scenario, but what happens if we really want 39 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: to meet those goals to lower emissions by And we're 40 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: talking to a huge group of people, so as I 41 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: just said, with policymakers, and you've got all sorts of 42 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: businesses affected by this, so electricity demand comes into it, 43 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,399 Speaker 1: charging infrastructure kind of the core things that I'm looking at, 44 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: but also other groups looking at things like metals and mining, 45 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: battery demands purely the vehicles themselves, clearly the automakers interested 46 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: in those. So it touches on just about everybody who 47 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: could possibly be interested in road transport. And there are 48 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: a lot of different directions to go in here. But 49 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: what would you say is kind of the state of 50 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: the market today, Because I will say, just anecdotally speaking, 51 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: we went from in London the electric scooter space being 52 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 1: illegal and find herble just a couple of years ago, 53 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: and now I see them absolutely everywhere. But let's focus 54 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: in on you know, I guess probably the biggest part 55 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: of the market that we tend to focus on, which 56 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: is the automotive space. What is the state of that 57 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: right now? So it's been a real successful time for 58 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: electric vehicles and we're starting to see kind of those 59 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: e V share of sales fift I think in kind 60 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: of places like Germany, China, even higher in some of 61 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: these markets as well. See noy is kind of the 62 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: post and child through these so evs as a whole 63 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: have been really quite successful, driven by kind of emissions 64 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: regulations and new products coming out all the time that 65 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: consumers want. You did obviously just touch on kind of bite, 66 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: and there is some niggling things happening in the background. 67 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: So you can't get on some of the trains now 68 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: if you've got kind of those e bikes because they 69 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: don't want to set on fire, I mean, not things 70 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: that we kind of fully focus on in the report. 71 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: But yeah, there's still things in the background going on 72 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: in this sector. So let's go into the topic that 73 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: we want to focus on for today's episode because you know, 74 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: as we've addressed, we could spend time on buses and 75 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: trucks and all of these different parts that are included 76 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: in this report, but let's talk about the charging networks 77 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: that actually are facilitating electric vehicles, so consumer vehicles or 78 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: maybe even fleets for taxis and for companies, but the 79 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: smaller vehicles that you see out there, and this charging 80 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: situation that is involved with range anxiety and why people 81 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: sometimes don't buy them and really facilitates the entire rollout 82 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: because you have to be able to you know, for 83 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: lack of a better word, fuel them if you're going 84 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: to use them. Where does that currently sit today. I 85 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: guess let's look back before we look forward. How far 86 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: have we come in charging and is it ubiquitous or 87 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: do we have a long way to go? Those pretty 88 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: regular articles kind of highlighting I've got a car, I'm 89 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: in the wild, and this really is is kind of 90 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: still a problem, whether that's because they're not available in 91 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: all locations or just because they don't work. So there's 92 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: still some way to go, but there's certainly big signs 93 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: of change, and there's a lot of investment in this market. 94 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: Like we've gone from somewhere a few years ago where 95 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: companies were like R E V is kind of going 96 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: to be real? Do people want to charge out about 97 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: what infrastructure? Do they really want to a market where 98 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: people are convinced that that's happening and they're actually trying 99 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: to put their money in so drivers can access a 100 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,119 Speaker 1: range of infrastructure. The market, largely, if we think about 101 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: Europe in the US is dominated by home charging. So 102 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: we've kind of got a lot of people who are 103 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: quite aftulent and by and quite expensive be these and 104 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: they've got a detached house and they can install a 105 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: home charges, so they don't necessarily need to charge elsewhere. 106 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: So much, but then you're starting to get more and 107 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: more people, whether that be like you said, the taxi 108 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: drivers who are kind of being pushed whether I'd vote 109 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: Uber or Lift to go electric in cities and building 110 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: up bigger numbers all those who just simply don't have 111 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: an ability to have a home charger, so they now 112 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: need a solution that isn't the home charging. We're seeing 113 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: quite a lot of investment, whether it be from the 114 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: pure play operators or kind of oil and gas utilities 115 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: as well coming in there, and even retails. So to 116 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: be honest, there's a lot of investment. There's a lot 117 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: of companies coming into this space. One of the things 118 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: that comes up is like what charges do people really want. 119 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: Do they want the slow ones that kind of charge 120 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: overnight in a similar way to what you might do 121 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: at home or maybe when you get to work and 122 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: you kind of leave your car there all day, or 123 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: do they want something that kind of is more similar 124 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: to a petrol station. And this debate is still kind 125 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: of going on, but some of the numbers that we've 126 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: seen is kind of last year about of all the 127 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: investment in the public network globally went into those faster 128 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: charges investors are kind of more favorable towards those, and 129 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: they're not just being rolled out on highways. So there 130 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: was this original thing like, oh, you only need the 131 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: fast ones if you're going two hundred three hundred miles, 132 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: whereas now there seems to be a bit of an 133 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: understanding that actually we can put these in urban locations. Retailers, supermarkets, 134 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: McDonald's are putting them into kind of warmart, all these 135 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: different companies. So we're seeing a different landscape occur with 136 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: kind of what is being accepted. But it doesn't mean 137 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: to say that there won't be slow charging. We do 138 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: see that in our forecast. But what we're certainly seeing 139 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: as you kind of weigh up the numbers and kind 140 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: of play out the scenarios, is just a share number 141 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: of fact charges that you need makes it really difficult. 142 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: You kind of need sixteen times more the slow charges 143 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: than you with the fast And then that gets into 144 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: this like, how do you get the planning commission, how 145 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: do you get the grid up grades? How do you 146 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: persuade the kind of whether it's municipalities or councils or 147 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: sub councils in cities to actually put these charges in 148 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: So we're a bit more favorable and fact charging, so 149 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: you reference that we would need more of them. That's 150 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: presumably because in the slow chargers, somebody would park their 151 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: car and leave them there for some time. So that's 152 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: in regard to a physical space and charging of the vehicles. 153 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: But what does this do to the grid and what 154 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: does it have to do with the demand on the grid, 155 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: because one of the benefits of the slow charger, potentially 156 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: you're even setting some sort of a you know, if 157 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: you're charging from home, deliberately charging overnight when demand for 158 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,119 Speaker 1: electricity is much lower on other parts of the grid. 159 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: These fast chargers, it's immediately happening. What sort of strained 160 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: does that put on the system? This topic comes up 161 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: and everybody's really interested in this at the moment. So 162 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: we did a really nice report last year with a 163 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: kind of a stop company called ev Energy in the UK. 164 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: So what they do is kind of plan out when 165 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: they would like people to charge when they plug in 166 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: at home and kind of move that time overnight. And 167 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: when you see that most people will get home at 168 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: five and this this assumption that everybody plugs in straight away, 169 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: that blows the grid and we've got a big problem. 170 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: But you're already actually really on average charge two or 171 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: three hours every night and you plugged in for twelve. 172 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: So they proved, and we've shown that in the data 173 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: that it's quite easy to move that that time from 174 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: five in the evening to till sort of early morning. 175 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: So from a home charging perspective, these tools can make 176 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: a difference, and policymakers are certainly picking up on that 177 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: and then starting to mandate things like smart charging in 178 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: different ways. When you get out into a kind of 179 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: fast charging, we can be talking mega what kind of 180 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: installations now, so multiple hundred killer what charges next to 181 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: each other, getting up to three fifty or even megawat 182 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: for the commercial vehicles now being discussed and kind of implemented. 183 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: So that does become a problem for the grid connection. 184 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: Some of the difference with that is you're planning it 185 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: in if I install a home charger, the grid might 186 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: not really know about it. Whereas when I'm saying I 187 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: want a megawat connection, you are saying to the grid 188 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: that I'm going to do that and they need to 189 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: approve it. So the problem more becomes how much do 190 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: they want to charge you to do that? And what 191 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 1: things can you do to kind of reduce the cost. 192 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: So we're hearing more and more about installations installing battery storage. 193 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: The economic so that differ though. So some places, like 194 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: in the US, they have these demand charges, which is 195 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: basically charging you more for electricity at peak times. So 196 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: it can be more favorable to install battery storage for 197 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 1: these kind of fast charges than other places. But it 198 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: might also be because of grid constraints. I literally don't 199 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: have enough capacity on the connection to do so, so 200 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: I think there's solutions, but certainly kind of the cost 201 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: of doing this is a bit of a problem, and 202 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: then just the resources available to do it. You care 203 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: that a lot of these public charging companies have got backlogs, 204 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: and that can be to do with planning permission, but 205 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: it can also be to do with getting the grid 206 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: upgrades and getting them facilitated quick enough is a bit 207 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: of a problem. The reference that there's a number of 208 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: different companies that are investing in these sorts of charging networks, 209 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: So independent companies utilities and oil and gas firms immediately 210 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: coming to mind, or energy companies as they would maybe 211 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: in this circumstance be called. But what about the grid operators? 212 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: So the grid operators actively involved in beyond the permitting process, 213 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: or they involved in rolling out the charging network and 214 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: actually getting some of the money from it. It kind 215 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: of strikes me just on at a high level. It's 216 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: like we've had years of oil and gas and they've 217 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: really lobbied quite successfully to keep that industry going. And 218 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 1: then you think about e v s and the opportunity 219 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: for utilities and grid operators, and maybe for the past 220 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: decade or so they've been a bit lukewarm on this industry, 221 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: but now I think we're seeing that change and they're 222 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: realizing the opportunity. So one of the stats from this 223 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: report is kind of like by e v S could 224 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: be of all demand for electricity globally, and obviously there's 225 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: a lot of money in that, whether they're selling the 226 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: electricity or providing the infrastructure to do so. So some 227 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: of these companies are jumping on it, whether that be 228 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: utilities like the MVW in Germany installing charges and owning 229 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: the network, whether it be some of the grid operators 230 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 1: who are trying to facilitate this market. The US is 231 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: really quite an interesting one. So in the US, you've 232 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: got a series of utilities and they submit filings to 233 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: kind of what we call rate base infrastructure, so increase 234 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: the cops everybody pays for electricity and use that increasing 235 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: cost to make a fund to do things with. And 236 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: in this case, they've submitted charging infrastructure filings, so some 237 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: of those filings go quite broad and they'll own the network, 238 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: whereas other ones are really just saying we're going to 239 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: upgrade the infrastructure that facilitates charging, so the infrastructure to 240 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: your to your depot for your busses. I think it 241 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: becomes a little bit of a kind of political point. 242 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: So is it anti competitive to let those grid operators 243 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: who are kind of allowed in the US to rate 244 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: based stuff to also own charging infrastructure because they can 245 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: kind of undercut then other companies who are coming into 246 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: the market. So one area, I think it's Austin Energy, 247 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: they have this kind of like subscription, so you pay 248 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: I can't remember the exact numb it's pretty it's like 249 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: five dollars a month or something like that, and you 250 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: get unlimited access to their level two charges. And it 251 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: then begs the question, like what money if they used 252 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: to kind of do that, is it undercutting the current market? 253 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, that that there is certainly a G operators 254 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: getting involved, and they also stand to gain from this 255 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: by essentially installing the infrastructure to move the electrons to 256 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,719 Speaker 1: the charges. So you reference that oil and gas or 257 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: energy companies are some of the companies that are actually 258 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: investing in this space now. In particular right now, I 259 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: think anybody listening who has a petrol vehicle has seen 260 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: the gas prices out there, and I know that we 261 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: are in a bit of an energy crunch, and this 262 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: has to do with a number of factors, including what's 263 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: happening with Russia and the Ukraine at the moment, but 264 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: even before that, when gas prices were somewhat lower, the 265 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: question is really around the margins on that are oil 266 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: and gas companies making more money kind of I guess 267 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: mile for mile if we want to put it in 268 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: those terms from an internal combustion engine as they are 269 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: from electric vehicle charging, because my experience with charging an 270 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: e V is that while the prices do range widely, 271 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: it's actually pretty cheap to charge up your vehicle. Yeah, 272 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: and what we've seen kind of high level is whilst 273 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: kind of people are saying, well, electricity prices and we're 274 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: really focusing on them growing gas prices are growing quicker 275 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: and quite a lot of regions. So if you're charging 276 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: at home, we're kind of seeing you can save on 277 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: off peak rates about one thousand, five hundred dollars a 278 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: year with your EV versus the cost you'd pay for 279 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: kind of petrol or diesel. If you're charging in public, 280 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: people go, well, the same thing you kind of just hired, 281 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: like oh, fifty pence or seventy pence for kill or 282 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: our kind of depending where you are, that's really expensive. 283 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: Well is it as much as gas? But I think 284 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: in a lot of cases that can still be kind 285 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: of like ten to thirty percent cheaper than what you're 286 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: paying on fuel. And that's changing kind of every day 287 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: at the moment as well, so there's still a case 288 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: on like, yeah, they can you as an EV driver 289 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: making money from an oil and gas perspective VP. I 290 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: think it was announced in a press article that on 291 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: kind of they're highly utilized EV chargers, they're actually becoming 292 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: more profitable than their fuel stations. Is this kind of 293 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: age or question where nobody can make money on charging 294 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: infrastructure is kind of the headline, And then now you 295 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: start to see more and more companies come out and 296 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: kind of I p O and put more information and say, well, actually, 297 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: on the high utilized ones that we've got, were making 298 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: quite a lot of money and the utilization is increasing 299 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: and paybacks are coming down to kind of five years 300 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: these kind of things, So they're doing quite well from 301 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: an oil and gas perspective. I think one of the 302 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: areas that we wrote about a little bit more was 303 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: they're going to lose a lot of revenues right so 304 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: at the moment they deliver basically all of the fuel 305 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: for everybody who's got a car, but they're slowly changing. 306 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: As we've talked about, a lot of people charge at home, 307 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: they charge at depot, and they're a real threat there. 308 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: So the utilities are gonna more and more used are 309 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: going to take up that market for example, although companies 310 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: like Shell have have got a utility base in the UK, 311 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: so they're at threat anyway, whether whether or not they 312 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: successfully managed to get some market share, certainly about fifty 313 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: of their market is a threat of being lost just 314 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: a private charging and then in public, as we sort 315 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: of highlighted earlier, you've got these other companies coming in 316 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: to take a share of it. So I think the 317 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: oil and gas majors actually one of those in this 318 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: arget who are quite under threat and at current you 319 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: see these strategies that they're kind of putting in, whether 320 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: that be installing at full courts the ultra fast charges 321 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: or buying other companies. The revenues they're going to lose 322 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: from private charging won't necessarily be made up by either 323 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: selling electricity through public charging or selling actually charging hardware 324 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: or installing or some software services. Some of the analysis 325 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: we've completed is like those revenues are not going to 326 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: make up for the lost revenues that they've got now 327 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: for a very short break, stay with us. How are 328 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: the auto company is facilitating the charging and really encouraging 329 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: the networks to get out there, Because immediately what comes 330 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: to mind, I think for many people are the Tesla 331 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: superchargers that were rolled out kind of alongside the vehicles 332 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: being sold in this assurance that don't worry, we'll be 333 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: able to get you from point A to point B, 334 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: from southern to northern California if you need to do it. 335 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: But now there's a lot more options, so you reference 336 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: that there's all these different charging networks and that you 337 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: don't need to even as a testlo owner charge on 338 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: the Tesla network. There's a lot of other networks that 339 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: used from and vice versa. How are the other vehicle 340 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: manufacturers as this space becomes increasingly crowded, how are they 341 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: facilitating the charging space? Tesla is just such a pioneer. 342 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: There's so many articles like musk Tesla. They just take 343 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: up a lot of the headlines and you can't help 344 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: but read it. But when I am an lhis of 345 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: the market is like, why are they really did a 346 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: good job, And a lot of the other automakers are 347 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: kind of trying to replicate that through one way or another. 348 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: So we've kind of got iona ty in Europe where 349 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: you've got a lot of ultra fast charges being put 350 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: in across the highway networks. I wouldn't be surprised to 351 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: see them install more in urban locations, electrifying America, which 352 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: is this kind of subsidiary Volkswagen. In the US as well, 353 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: We've got a range of other people announcing or starting 354 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: to install networks as well. So Rivian is talking about 355 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: a proprietary network that they're they're installing in large numbers. 356 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: The alounce is kind of announced that so many of 357 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: the companies are doing, so you've got slightly different takes 358 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: on what they're doing. So like Rivian is installing kind 359 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: of adventurous location that fits their brand. You've got GM 360 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: who's put this I think it's something like a seven 361 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: fifty million dollar fund together. They kind of instead of saying, 362 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: all right, we'll own all the network, they're giving some 363 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: money to e v GOO in the US to put 364 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: fact charges in the locations they want. But it doesn't 365 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: look like they're really looking at as like a business opportunity. 366 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: But they're not just looking at public charging. So you've 367 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: got some of them who really quite laser focus on 368 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: what they want to look at. What GM is also 369 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: in a kind of facilitating charging the dealerships and in 370 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: the communities. So a few different layers there of how 371 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: the automakers see this. What is their space within the market, 372 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: Because one of the things that came up recently in 373 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: the news was that their supercharger network is now available 374 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: to a wider range of well, I guess all of 375 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: the electric vehicles out there that at least can actually 376 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: tolerate supercharging. What does this mean I guess for Tesla 377 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: owners first of all, which that was one of the 378 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: perks of owning one of those vehicles, and what does 379 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: this mean, I guess for the future of that company 380 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: and the rest of the industry. Tesla is just such 381 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: a pioneer. And when you look at their charging companies 382 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: and you compare them, for example, with the other ones 383 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: that have gone public, they're pretty much as big or 384 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 1: bigger than all of them. So we've got some like 385 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: a Lego trying to think of the other one's fastened 386 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: v Go charge point. Those companies really are competing with 387 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: Tesla in a way. Even though Tesla hasn't spun out 388 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: those divisions, they're probably making a lot of the hardware 389 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: that they need, and therefore they can just compete on 390 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: that puel basis as well as producing the vehicles. So 391 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting. And from opening up the 392 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: network point of view, I mean, they've got thousands of chargers, 393 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: so just in the flick of a switch, I think 394 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: they've got something like seven thousands superchargers in Europe and 395 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: they turned on about one thousand, five hundreds of those 396 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: to everyone in Europe, I believe, so other drivers can 397 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: use it. And as you say, it's like, well, what 398 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: do you think if you're a Tesla driver, you're probably 399 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: not too happy because this perk that you've got has 400 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 1: been taken away. If you're another ev driver, I mean one, 401 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: it's a great advertisement for Tesla, and I wouldn't underestimate 402 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: what they're really doing there, Like the automotive industry is 403 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: full of money going into mark seeing and Tesla doesn't 404 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: do that, and this is just another way they can 405 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: get around naturally, but it doesn't mean quite yet that 406 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: it kind of fully pan out. I mean I was 407 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: looking on somebody who had taken their things a BMW 408 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: to one of the charges superchargers in the UK, and 409 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: the charge point isn't the charge point poor isn't in 410 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:16,959 Speaker 1: the right place, so they had to kind of like 411 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: drive over three spaces for example, So they weren't just 412 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: blocking one and annoying a Tesla driver, they were actually 413 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: blocking more than one. So there's still some hurdles there, 414 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: but really cool from Tesla. So let's talk a little 415 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: bit about the batteries themselves and how they handled the 416 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: super charging, because one of the things that we know 417 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: about electric vehicles and their batteries is that the batteries 418 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 1: degrade over time, and the supercharging of them may make 419 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 1: them degrade a little bit faster. Has the battery technology 420 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 1: changed and is this an area of focus for the 421 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: manufacturers of these batteries. And the battery seems to be 422 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: changing depending on a few things. So one of the 423 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 1: popular topics at the moment is this, like material prices 424 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: for batteries are getting really high r E vs. Price 425 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: parry isn't going to stay the same. And we can 426 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: of see a few things that automakers are doing, and 427 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: one of them is changing the battery chemistry. So they're 428 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: going away from the kind of high nickel, high cobalt 429 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: content and they're now putting more emphasis on their LFP. 430 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: This is cheaper iron phosphate batteries. I think that's that's 431 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: the right expression for LFP. Those were originally thought to 432 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: not perform so well, but there seems to have been 433 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: a bit of an evolution and they're managing to hit 434 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,479 Speaker 1: the range requirements and safety requirements and everything in the 435 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: same way that they maybe would have had done with 436 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: the NMC batteries. So they're getting away by going with 437 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: basically cheaper content Chemistry's the other thing is like these 438 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: NMC batteries can take higher charge rates for example, So 439 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: there was a thought of, well, we'll go towards them. 440 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: Everybody wants faster charging. But again there seems to be 441 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: an evolution or perhaps a progression with the LFP batteries 442 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: that they seem to be performing nearly as well as 443 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: the others. Charge rates is obviously kind of a center 444 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: of attention. Everybody wants to be able to basically fuel 445 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: their electric vehicle just as they fuel their petrol whereful, 446 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: and you get to this point kind of from a 447 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: technical perspective where if you go above what basically the 448 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: superchargers today do, which is kind of a hundred fifty 449 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: two fifty killer, what's where they kind of max out. 450 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: People discussing that you need a change in battery chemistry, 451 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: you need to go from with them ion technologies, and 452 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: you need to have solid state, but solid state whilst 453 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: there's some companies that are kind of talking about success 454 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: still seems to be five years, ten years away. And 455 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure whether it will be one of those 456 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: technologies that's always five or years away until it's really proven. 457 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: But what we're seeing in China, I don't think China 458 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: is a really interesting story we can talk about for 459 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: a while is the automakers there are announcing vehicles with 460 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: three fifty four killer maximum charge capacity, so maybe charging 461 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: in five ten minutes, certainly quicker than those on the 462 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: market today, and they're saying that they can do that 463 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: with lithium ion technology, so they're managing to basically up 464 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: the speck without actually changing the chemistry, which is interesting. 465 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: Let's focus now instead of on the superchargers, on these 466 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: home chargers that you say are starting to be the 467 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: bigger part of market share than maybe some of the 468 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: company's installing the chargers had anticipated. And this one area 469 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: around smart charging. So we've already addressed this idea of 470 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: people charging at different times of the day in order 471 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: to optimize when they're in the grid. But how about 472 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: the opposite direction. So, for example, in some countries, people 473 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: have backup generators or power walls to supply them with 474 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: electricity when the grid is unable to And this is 475 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: no longer an issue that's just relegated to parts of 476 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: the developing world. We do have grid outages and all 477 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: kinds of places due to things like fires or cold 478 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: snaps and snowstorms and all kinds of things. So our 479 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: vehicles ever going to be able to put energy back 480 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: into the grid and supply us with this flexibility. Yeah, 481 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: and this question is really cool, and sometimes you bring 482 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,959 Speaker 1: it out with people and they're like, now, it's never 483 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: going to happen. It's kind of a point dream. And 484 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: we've done a lot of research in the last year 485 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: and you're seeing more and more announcements that would suggest, 486 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: you know what, that this is kind of happen, and 487 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: if it happens at scale, some really interesting things happened 488 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: to the power system. So just from a point of 489 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: saying what, yeah, it really could happen. We've seen many 490 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: automakers out what we call bi directional charging, the ability 491 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: to send energy the other way so forward with their 492 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,479 Speaker 1: f one fifty have said yeah, you can power your 493 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: house for a number of days with our vehicle, Bolkzwagen 494 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: saying every vehicle that they release, I think from two 495 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: onwards that has a battery bigger than seventy or eighty 496 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: kill or hours, we'll be able to do this. The 497 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: high on dozen kids that are already out there do this. 498 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: So just highlighting some major manufacturers are adding this capability. 499 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: A lot of them are current are kind of confining that. 500 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: So just to your home. But in future they're certainly 501 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: looking at how do you send the energy out all 502 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: the way to the grid. There's kind of many hurdles 503 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: being able to attach this, and some of that is 504 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: cost and some of that is battery degradation, and then 505 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: there's hurdles around like can you make any money, Like 506 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: is anybody actually going to do this if I'm not 507 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: gonna get paid enough. But one of the studies we 508 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: kind of looked at it was a UK based on 509 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: and we did that within this election vehicle outlook, just 510 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: to get a finger on the market was to say, well, 511 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: what happens the vehicles do this and they can send 512 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: energy back to the power system. And what you see 513 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: is actually you can install more renewableble energy generation. You 514 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: could get rid of bossil fuel generation quicker, and you 515 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: can get rid of something like ten cumulity emissions and 516 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: save in the order of magnitude of four to eight 517 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: of power system costs. So that can be simply buying 518 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: the fuel that can be setting up the kind of 519 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: renewable generation versus getting rid of the gas generation. We 520 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: think if it gets be it could be really good. 521 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: But the complexity of actually aligning the money that's made 522 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 1: and the savings that could be produced with a driver 523 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: and making sure they connect to the grid is quite difficult. 524 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: And we are seeing these grids of reference, not just 525 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: the grids people are charging on, but the grids that 526 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: are manufacturing these vehicles. Those grids are getting cleaner as well, 527 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: are they not. Yes, so I think across the world 528 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: things are getting cleaner. One of the interesting points that 529 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: we came across when looking at bidirectional charging was kind 530 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: of how carbon costs work. So you can end up 531 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: in a situation and this applies to some work that 532 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: I've seen on energy storage that we do where you 533 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: put in a large amount of energy storage, and that 534 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: could be stationary storage, it can be the vehicles, and 535 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: you can get the counter of what I originally said 536 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: if you don't have high enough carbon costs, so that 537 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: storage can essentially lead to guess generation or coal plants 538 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: running at their kind of optimum capacity all the time. 539 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,719 Speaker 1: Essentially you're doing them a favor, which means you're then 540 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: raising emissions. So you don't always get in every market 541 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: the same situation where if storage is increased, whether that 542 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: be from stationary storage or through the vehicles, that that 543 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: will a hundred percent means you get more renewable generation. 544 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: So we've got some more research to do that. But 545 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: we're just sort of digging in a little bit deeper 546 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: on like carbon costs and how that affects markets, particularly 547 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: like China, whether they're maybe not as stringent in how 548 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: they do that as they might be in say the UK, 549 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: or so from a policy standpoint, what is or isn't 550 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: maybe in that case facilitating the adoption of electric vehicles. 551 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: So part us has obviously been one of the big 552 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: ones across this report, especially to get to net zero. 553 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: If we kind of focusing on charging, I've started to 554 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: see more and more companies now saying well, actually we 555 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: don't need so much subsidies, particular across Europe. It's maybe 556 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: slightly different in the US. And we're also getting a 557 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: lot of finance companies get interested in this, so we've 558 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: got access to finance, not just from subsidies, we've got 559 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: them elsewhere. So that in some ways leads you to 560 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: the conclusion will actually policymakers maybe don't need to put 561 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 1: so many subsidies in to get this market to go. 562 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: But the question becomes like how quick do you want 563 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: the market to go, though, and if you wanted to 564 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: move really quick, and we kind of obviously decided with 565 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: the Paris Agreement and everything else, that we would like 566 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: to get to net zero quicker, then you can still 567 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: put those subsidies in. And the scale of the subsidies 568 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: needed just far smaller than what we're putting elsewhere. So 569 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: there was a chart that I added in this year 570 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: that showed how much money was needed for a charging 571 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: network in Germany, how much money were they putting for 572 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: subsidies to kind of undercut the vehicle price that consumers 573 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: would pay, and then how much money did they put 574 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: into subsidies for fossil fuels bouncing back from COVID nineteen 575 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: kind of into those industries, And the order of magnitude 576 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: for the fossil fuels was somewhere like two billion. For 577 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: the vehicles, and it depends whether they keep the subsidy 578 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: rate the same, but I think you get something like 579 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: six thousand euros for a bed at the moment in Germany, 580 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: and they're talking about that lasting till around I believe 581 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: we're talking somewhere around fifty and for the charging network, 582 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: we're getting down to the kind of five to ten 583 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: billion range. So it's also a conversation about, like one, 584 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: if you really want to do it, it's a small 585 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: amount of the other subsidies. Let's move some stuff around 586 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: and then we can really do this. And whilst from 587 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: a business point of view, this might happen without subsidies, 588 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: it will certainly happen quicker with them. So that's where 589 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: I've kind of come to from the analysis and what 590 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: some of that shows now for a very short break 591 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: stay with us. So more subsidies for vehicle adoption, that 592 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: for the charging networks as well, or those heavily subsidized, 593 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: or those pretty much to free market. There is a 594 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: lot of heavy subsidies the US. And at seven point 595 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: five billion and these highway charges we're looking at, they're 596 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,239 Speaker 1: saying project's gonna fly of the costs. In Germany they 597 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: put in two billion, I think for a thousand stations 598 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: for fast charges across and they're doing some kind of 599 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: more unique things in that they're saying, actually, this is 600 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: the maximum price you can charge. So that really is 601 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: changing the market because if you're an operator there and 602 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: often they're charging more than the price cap that Germany 603 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: has talked about. The market is really being manipulated by that, 604 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: so there's quite a lot of government intervention in different ways. 605 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: One of the areas that I think is maybe not 606 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: talked about enough, but it is really going to affect 607 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: this market is grid up grades and rate basing. So 608 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: we briefly touched on, like the US have these filings 609 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: and they rate based some of those to put grid 610 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: up grades for charging infrastructure in and that's great, and 611 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: that is one of the more progress markets in the 612 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: world for doing that from what I can see. But 613 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: that doesn't last forever. So you might be lucky your 614 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: bus station A and you want to upgrade too, I 615 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: don't know, fifty buses and you've fortunately got the local 616 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: utility who's got two hundred million to help you out. 617 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: But once that two hundred million runs out, what are 618 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: you're going to do? And this problem kind of exists everywhere. 619 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: And I wouldn't want ev an option, or I don't 620 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: think ev A option should be slowed down because some 621 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: people are looking to go, Wow, the grid up grade 622 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: costs are just so expensive to do this. So we've 623 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: seen some movement on that. In the UK, they're saying 624 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: we will allow rate basing for charging infrastructure upgrades, so 625 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: grid operators can put that into their rate base. It's 626 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: a little bit gray where that kind of ends and 627 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: where it starts, because quite clearly you could end up 628 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: in a situation where like business ay says, yeah, I'll 629 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: have a megawat connection and they don't really need it. 630 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: So I think it's a difficult one, but I think 631 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: it will certainly help the market if more money was 632 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: allowed to be rate based for grid upgrades, for charging, 633 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: and explain it exactly what rate basing is. So if 634 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: you are paying at the moment killer what hour, a 635 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: certain portion of that is for taxes, and a certain 636 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: portion of it is from the electricity itself and the 637 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: overheads of the kind of company run it. And they 638 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: basically increase how much you're paying percular one hour, and 639 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: they turn that into a fund to do the grid upgrades. 640 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,239 Speaker 1: Really there we go. Electricity demand is certainly going up, 641 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: not just for electric vehicles, but in other parts of 642 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: our lives. Let's look at things from how we interact 643 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 1: with electricity for our phones and storage and even our homes. 644 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: So I think that these grid upgrades do create an opportunity, 645 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: but the potential pinch point for a number of industries 646 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: at the moment. Switching tracks a little bit, let's talk 647 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: about some things that well, I think everybody is probably 648 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: sick of talking about COVID nineteen, but to be honest, 649 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: we are not beyond it. And there was a bit 650 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: of a crunch on electric vehicle sales generally in particular 651 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: in the US, but also in some other areas that 652 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: we saw over the course of the past couple of 653 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: years as the pandemic was you know underway. Could you 654 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: explain to everybody kind of what happened there, first of all, 655 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: and then secondly what that meant for electric vehicles? Did 656 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: that increase adoption? And are they back on track now? 657 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: And are there enough vehicles being rolled out because certainly 658 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: it drove prices up and at one point, used vehicles 659 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: cost more than you know, we've ever seen in the 660 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: market before. Yeah, and my father in lawas just sold 661 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,959 Speaker 1: his his car because he could sell it from more 662 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: than he bought it horace. I think some we're seeing 663 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: that change like pretty quickly. I don't think that's going 664 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: to last forever, where you can sell a used car 665 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: for more than you bought it for. The supply chain 666 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: crunch from COVID lead to things like the semi conduct 667 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: or shortage that are still kind of ongoing on a 668 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: weekly basis. We're kind of tracking that and we've done 669 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: a few notes and there seems to be some more 670 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: optimism that lines are starting to get up to speed. 671 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: But because vehicles couldn't be produced, that certainly has led 672 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: to this point where kind of secondhand prices have gone 673 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: up for ordinary vehicles. For e v s, it was 674 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: a little bit difficult to sense would COVID be worse 675 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: or could it be worse for the market or bear 676 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: What we've seen is actually that really has risen the 677 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: share of evs over time time. It's kind of the 678 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: perfect combination. I suppose, where you've got a lot of 679 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: emissions regulations coming in, you started to see more and 680 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: more models becoming available, and therefore, particularly in China and Europe, 681 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: sales have really surged over the past kind of a 682 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: few years. Throughout that time. If you think about the shortages, though, 683 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: we could have I believe the market could have sold 684 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: more if the semi conduct to shortages weren't available in 685 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: terms of you be so some of those startup manufacturers 686 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: will have had it worse than some of the bigger ones. 687 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: If you think about the small Chinese manufacturers like Neo 688 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: and x Pay, I don't think when you look at 689 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: their numbers that they've sold as many vehicles as they 690 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: would have done without the semi conduct to shortage. And 691 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: even if you look at like Rivian and you you 692 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: really look in a bit more detail at the articles, 693 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: it's like building a new car company is just really 694 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: difficult from a supply chain perspective. You've got to make 695 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: sure everything is in the right place at the right 696 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: time to kind of put it together. And the numbers 697 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: that basically those companies really said they were going to 698 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: sell hasn't really materialized in a lot of places, and 699 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: they're kind of behind. And a lot of that I 700 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: think can come down to supply chain, and that's been 701 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: kind of amplified by this continuous role across countries in 702 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: the in the world of like people going into lockdown, 703 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: and obviously China was the last one is just coming 704 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: out of it. And I know this is the billion 705 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: dollar question, but do we have an idea of when 706 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: the supply chain, in particular the semi conductors are going 707 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: to kind of even out and return to normal we 708 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: actually don't know, so we're tracking very similar. I mean, 709 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: Andrew just that in our team, and the last couple 710 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: of weeks, I think b M, the LEO and Mercedes 711 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: have said their lines are back up and running, but 712 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: they're cautiously kind of watching it, whilst I can't remember 713 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: the third supplier I was reading saying we're actually still 714 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: seeing this as a bit of a struggle, and this 715 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: supply chain problem is going to exist not just on 716 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: kind of semi conductors, but batteries is a great one 717 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: to really think about. So like d y D saying 718 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: we're buying or the rumored I don't know whether it's 719 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: confirmed yet to be buying five mines for lithium. And 720 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: I think we're going to see this across the world 721 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: where some companies just have the right contracts and have 722 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: set up and they can basically get the materials and 723 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: the components they need at the right price, while others 724 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: are kind of left swimming and struggling a little bit 725 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: on the side. So the competitive advantage of being able 726 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: to have those and be vertically integrated I think will 727 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: play out in this market over time. And when you 728 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: think about China, a lot of Chinese companies that own 729 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: a lot of the resources that are needed. So whilst 730 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: the car industry previously was very focused around European, US manufacturers, 731 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: Japanese manufacturers, the Chinese manufacturers are taking a bigger and 732 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: bigger share of the Chinese market, and with some of 733 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: these advantages I just talked about, have the ability to 734 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: actually enter Europe and the US, So maybe we'll be 735 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: buying Chinese electric cars in the next decade. I mean, 736 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: these are truly global supply chains with medals from all 737 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: over the world, and then manufacturing of batteries in one 738 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: place and then the vehicles in another place. It's all 739 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: so interdependent, so it will definitely be watched this space. 740 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: Let's talk about something else that's also quite topical at 741 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: the moment, and what impact this will have in this industry, 742 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: which is Russian their invasion of the Ukraine. And this 743 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: is another thing that I think is having a massive 744 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: impact on natural gas in particular here in Europe. We're 745 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: thinking about it all of the time, but I know 746 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: it has a global impact. But additionally, the sanctions on 747 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: oil has changed some of the dynamic. How was the 748 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: war in the Ukraine interacting with and changing electric vehicle rollout, 749 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,919 Speaker 1: So gas prices are going up, and I think that's 750 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: only leading to more people searching on Google for electric 751 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: vehicles and kind of seeing will actually save some money 752 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: on this. So I only can see that it's going 753 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: to be a positive. Whilst electric vehicle costs are going 754 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 1: up and the average rate you might pay is going up. 755 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: If you look into the weeds a little bit, as 756 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: I kind of do on a daily basis, the e 757 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: V tariffs haven't changed dramatically, so you can still get 758 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: overnight if you're on the right tariff. He's kind of 759 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: like five six per kill or our rates. But we're 760 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: obviously going to see and you alluded to a second 761 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: ago with the change in the where it is not 762 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: just down to one component of EV is also heat humped, 763 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: is also air conditioning. It's also to build out of 764 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: new building blocks elsewhere, and the addition of kind of 765 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: renewable energy and distributed resources. There's so much going on 766 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: that I think there will be some some more innovation 767 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: really in these electricity tariffs as well over time. So 768 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: we think about the war and that the prices of 769 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: oil and gas kind of increasing, we're seeing that the 770 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: actual price for petrol is going up slightly quicker, particularly 771 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: in the U S. Should I say, actually, if you 772 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: look at the US that the price of petrol has 773 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 1: gone a lot within the price of electricity, therefore making 774 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: e vs look much more attractive. In Europe they are 775 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: slightly more attractive, but that dynamic hasn't changed so much. 776 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: So also super topical at the moment are technology companies. 777 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: And as we think about what's happening in the Silicon 778 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: Valley and what's happening with many of those listed companies, 779 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: let's just talk about some of the industries that they 780 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: are actually operating in. What's some of the coolest technology 781 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: I guess you're thinking of? And I'm thinking almost like 782 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: there's an for that? Is there an out for that 783 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: when it comes to electric vehicles that I should be 784 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: aware of. So there's so many cool things that we 785 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: get to go out and look at and go around. 786 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: And we went to San Francisco in February and we 787 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: went out in the way Moos. We were fortunate enough 788 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: to go to their depot and see what was going on, 789 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: and sometimes that really provides just that kind of eye 790 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: opening to go all right, am I looking at the 791 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: numbers correctly when we do our forecasting. And one of 792 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: the things they had there if you just imagine really 793 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: hundreds of weymos I think in this depot kind of 794 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: the Jaguar Eye paces and the Chrysler pacificas and somewhere 795 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: in the region of twenty fast charges in one bank, 796 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: which is quite a lot. What you soon realized from 797 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,760 Speaker 1: that is why would you plug in an autonomous vehicle? 798 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: So that leads you to say, well, when these autonomous 799 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: vehicles become a big portion of kilometers traveled and they 800 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: take up more of the market, then we'll see wireless 801 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: charging take up more as well. And what you don't 802 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: want to do if you're an investor in charging is 803 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: really go, actually, I'm going to put all my money 804 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: into something and then it's instead of lasting ten years, 805 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 1: it's only gonna last five. So I think people will 806 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: start to look at that in a bit more detail 807 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: in the next five years maybe, and we might therefore 808 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: see wireless charging become a bigger part of the market. 809 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: How does wireless charging work? So this is going to 810 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: test my knowledge, and I think in the moment there's 811 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: like three or four main companies who are doing this 812 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: and some of them are touting different technology. Some of 813 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: them seem to have technology that's quite good at low powers, 814 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: similar to the kind of home charging m and some 815 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: of them are quite good at fact powers. And then 816 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: some of them will say, well, actually we've got the 817 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: best technology because we can provide the technology to do 818 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 1: both fast and slow from the same I P base 819 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: that we've got. So I'm not going to suggest that 820 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: I understand everything about how they send the electricity through 821 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: the air, but that's one of the things they're certainly interesting, incredible. Okay, 822 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: that'll be really interesting. Leave it to Silicon Valley to 823 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: continue to innovate in this space. So Electric Vehicle Outlook two. 824 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,240 Speaker 1: We look forward to having you back on the show 825 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: next year and see what things actually stood out. But 826 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: really interesting to hear about all of the stuff that 827 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: we've looked into, specifically regarding the charging network. Brian, thank 828 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today. Thanks. Today's episode 829 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: of Switched On was edited by Rex Warner of gray 830 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: Stoke Media. Bloomberg an e f as a service provided 831 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This recording does 832 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: not constitute, nor should it be construed as investment advice, 833 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,720 Speaker 1: investment recommendations, or recommendation as to an investment or other strategy. 834 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: Bloomberg an f should not be considered as information sufficient 835 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,720 Speaker 1: upon which to base an investment decision. Neither Bloomberg Finance 836 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: LP nor any of its affiliates makes any representation or 837 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of the information 838 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,280 Speaker 1: contained in this recording, and any liability of this recording 839 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: is expressly disclaimed.