1 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Snaffoo, ladies and gentlemen, your favorite show 2 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: about history's greatest screw ups. I'm Ed Helms, and this 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: past season we covered how Jay Edgar Hoover embroiled the 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: FBI in one of the worst intelligence snaffoos of all time, 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: a daring heist that exposed it all, and then the 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: staggering fallout that sent shockwaves through America. Today, we're back 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: with a bonus episode. I thought one of the most 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: fascinating parts of this season was the Church Committee hearings, 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: which investigated co intel pro but there was a lot 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 1: we just couldn't get to. For example, the Church Committee 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: hearings didn't just cover the FBI, they also covered abuses 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: within the CIA, the NSA, and other intelligence agencies. So 13 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: we thought it was worth digging in a little deeper 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: into those hearings, some of the aftermath and where it 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: leaves us today. To do that, we called back up 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: our old friend and leading intelligence expert Locke Johnson, who 17 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: contributed a lot throughout the season. Locke was a key 18 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: player in the Church Committee hearings, working directly for Senator 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: Frank Church through the entire sixteen month process. In this conversation. 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: We get a fascinating insider look at the inner workings 21 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: of those hearings, and then tackle some fiery questions like 22 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: how do you strike the right balance between security and 23 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: civil liberties, how have advances in technology like artificial intelligence 24 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: affected modern day surveillance, and how much privacy do we 25 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: actually have left these days? I had a lot of 26 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: fun with this conversation. It was stimulating, fascinating, and maybe 27 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: at times a little bit scary, but well worth it. 28 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: And now here it is my extended conversation with Locke 29 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: Johnson Locke, welcome back, Such a delight to talk to you. 30 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: Thanks. 31 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: Now our listeners will remember you from this past season, 32 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: specifically episode seven, where we covered the existence of FBI 33 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: abuses unveiled during the Church Committee hearings. We'll get into 34 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: some of that, but before we do, remind us your 35 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: background and how it is that you came to join 36 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: Senator Frank Church's team. 37 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 2: All right, Well, in a nutshell, I was born in 38 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 2: New Zealand and my father, when I was in the womb, 39 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: was an RAF pilot unfortunately killed on his twenty eighth mission, 40 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: and about five years later my mother married an American 41 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: soldier who was also fighting in the Pacific, and he 42 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 2: brought us back to the States. So I'm in New 43 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: Zealander by birth, but I've grown up in an American 44 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 2: family and lived all over the place because he was 45 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: a career military officer. And I've been teaching political science 46 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: for a long time now and love my days at 47 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: the University of Georgia. Before that, though, I had been 48 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 2: a Congressional fellow, and it's a wonderful fellowship because you 49 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: can pick any member of Congress you want out of 50 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: the five hundred and thirty five to work for. So 51 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: I picked Frank Church back in nineteen sixty nine in 52 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: the middle of the Vietnam War, because in my view, 53 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: he was the most articulate spokesman against that war and 54 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 2: I felt the same way he did, and so it 55 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: was great to spend the year with him. And by 56 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: the way, during that year, we had the incursion, or 57 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 2: what I would say was an invasion at Cambodia by 58 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: the Nixon administration, and the passage of the Cooper Church Amendment, 59 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: which was an effort to get those troops back into 60 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: Vietnam rather than expanding the war. So that was an 61 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: exciting period of time. To be with Frank Church. And 62 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: then a couple of years later he telephoned me and said, 63 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: I've been named to head up this investigation into the CIA, 64 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 2: and you and I worked the other well when you 65 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: were a congressional fellow. So would you come back and help? 66 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: And I explained to him I knew nothing about that topic, 67 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: and he said he laughed, and he said, we'll learn together. 68 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: So he was something of adfi too, although he overstated 69 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: the case because he had been in World War Two 70 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: as an intelligence officer in China, so he knew something 71 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: about intelligence, but probably not much about the CIA really, 72 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: So we were learning together, and that launched a sixteen 73 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: month inquiry beginning in nineteen seventy five, looking into initially 74 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: that agency, but as we began to turn the stones 75 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: over look at the other agencies, we found that they 76 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: were doing things that were just as bad as what 77 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: the CIA had done, and in fact, in case of 78 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: the FBI, shockingly worse. If you can imagine. 79 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: After everything we learned this season, I sadly can imagine 80 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: it now. As you know, our podcast season is all 81 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: about the media burglary, which ultimately revealed co intel pro, 82 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: which is a code word for counter intelligence program. This 83 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: program was designed by the FBI to surveil and disrupt 84 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: political organizations. Locke, do you recall when you first heard 85 00:04:58,240 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: about co intel Pro. 86 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: I really began to focus on it when I joined 87 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: the Church Committee, and then my memory was refreshed that 88 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: we had heard of cointelpro already, because that was one 89 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 2: of the set of documents revealed by those really amazingly 90 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 2: brave people who broke into that office and found those documents. 91 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 2: Because I really alerted as to the fact that the 92 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: FBI had really straight off the reservation rather dramatically. But 93 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: at the time I think we were so involved in 94 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: Vietnam War that got a little bit lost. But when 95 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 2: the Church Committee came along, the Vietnam War was over 96 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: officially ended that year, and once we began our investigation, 97 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: we initially looked at CIA illegal spying on a student activists, 98 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 2: but then, as I mentioned, we began to turn over 99 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: other stones, and one of the stones we turned over 100 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 2: was the FBI, and that LEDs to Cointelpro, and that 101 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: refreshed our memories about what happened in nineteen seventy one. 102 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: But I would have emphasize that of all the things 103 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 2: we looked at on the Church Committee, and recall we 104 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 2: looked at assassination plots and cis flying at home and 105 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: a lot of other rather shocking things NSA's flying at home. 106 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: So just a quick clarification for any listeners wondering why 107 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: is the CIA coming up or the NSA. Well, it 108 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: turns out that all of these agencies kind of had 109 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: their own version of co intel pro going at the 110 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: same time. For instance, the CIA's program was called Operation Chaos, 111 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: which was intended to find connections between domestic political activists 112 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: and foreign communist groups. But this all begs the question 113 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: for you, Locke, when you joined up with Frank Church, 114 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: were you somewhat aware that each of these agencies had 115 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: their own surveillance operations. 116 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: Well, I was Frank Church's designe as we call them. 117 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: That meant I was a top assistant. So I went 118 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: to every single meeting the committee held, and so I 119 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 2: was aware not just of the CIA, which was one 120 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 2: of the topics I was working on mainly, but really 121 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: across the board of all these agencies. That was the 122 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 2: virtue being his aid. I got to go everywhere with 123 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: him and go to all the meetings. The most profoundly 124 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: troubling was Cointelpro. And one of our senators we had 125 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: eleven on our committee, was Philip Hart. Really an amazing man, 126 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 2: the only man in the Senate at the time with 127 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 2: the beard, and very seft spoken and thoughtful, and kind 128 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: of a relative newcomer to the Senate. But it shows 129 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: you how amazing he was to realize that one of 130 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: the three Senate buildings was named after him when he 131 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: passed away during the Church Committee days, that's how highly 132 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: regarded he was. But I remember he was quite ill 133 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: with cancer and didn't attend many of our meetings, but 134 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: he came to one of our early public hearings on 135 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: Cointelpro and he said, with six hundred people in the 136 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: Caucaus building and all kinds of media people, he said 137 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 2: that he had been sitting around the table a couple 138 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: of years earlier with his kids who were in college. 139 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: They were telling him that they thought the FBI was 140 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: spying on them and maybe at the CIA too, and 141 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: he told them at the time, you guys are just 142 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: smoking too much pot, that those agencies don't do that 143 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: kind of thing. And then he paused, and there wasn't 144 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 2: a murmur in that room. Everyone was quiet because, for 145 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: one thing, his voice was soft. He was not feeling 146 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: well because of the cancer, and he was in a 147 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 2: weakened condition. But he paused and he said, they were right. 148 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: They were right, and it was just probably the most 149 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 2: moving moment at church Meny. In fact, some of the 150 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: staff members believe it or not, who are pretty hardened 151 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: individuals in some were sobbing. But my eyes welling up 152 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: as well, because he was this man whom we respected 153 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 2: so much, and he was so moved by the realization 154 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 2: that the FBI, one of the organizations that he venerated 155 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: as part of the backburne of America's defense against criminals 156 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: and against Russian agents is on the FBI, had been 157 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: involved in these efforts to destroy the lives of blacks 158 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: and anti war protesters. He was astounded by that. I 159 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: realized at the time that the FBI had been done 160 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: some things that were, to say the least questionable. And 161 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 2: the reason I knew about that fairly early is because 162 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: Church asked me almost immediately to do some work on 163 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: the Houston Plan, and we could spend a whole program 164 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 2: to talking about that. But in a nutshell, Richard Nixon 165 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: was so concerned about student protests, and so fervently believed 166 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: that the KGB was supporting their activities that he called 167 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 2: upon the top US intelligence agencies to test that proposition, 168 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: to go out across the country from California to Maine 169 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: to find out and to prove that the Russians were 170 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 2: giving these student protesters money as a way of harassing 171 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: the United States. So the agencies signed on to this 172 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: Houston Plan. Tom Charles Houston was a White House aide 173 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 2: who Nixon put in charge of putting together a spy 174 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 2: plan against America's students. And the first thing Houston was 175 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 2: to go to the FBI and said who here can 176 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 2: help me do this? And that's where person number three, 177 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 2: William Sullivan stepped forward and said, I'm the top operations 178 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: officer here. So in a way it should be called 179 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: a Sullivan plan because Houston worked with Sullivan, who was 180 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: the expert on spying and espionage, to put together a package. 181 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 2: And then when they asked the directors of the CIA, 182 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: the FBI, the NSA, and military intelligence to sign on 183 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 2: to this plan, every one of them did it. Everyone 184 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 2: signed the plan that allowed them to violate American laws 185 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 2: right and left to conduct surveillance against protesters and also 186 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 2: those involved in the civil movement. So, I mean, the 187 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 2: Houston Plan is just an amazing document. Now, once it 188 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 2: was all signed, Hoover began to have second thoughts because 189 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: he was sixty five at the time, going a little 190 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: beyond the retirement age, and he was afraid if this leaked, 191 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: he would have to leave office and that was his 192 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: whole life to be, to be EE director. So he 193 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,479 Speaker 2: went to the attorney. 194 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: Who was more scary to him than being exposed as 195 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: the criminal. 196 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 2: I think. 197 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: So that's an incredible story, and it speaks to the 198 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: fundamental tension between a government's responsibility to conduct secret operations 199 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: for national security and its need to respect the rights 200 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: of its citizens. 201 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: Ed with that phrase, you just nailed the problem. 202 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: That's the dilemma, and I know that you've written extensively 203 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: on that exact subject. There are a lot of ways 204 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: to read that situation. And I'm curious if we get 205 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: into Nixon's head a little bit, do you think that 206 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: he genuinely believed that Russian communist forces were supporting student 207 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: protesters at the time, or was it more of a 208 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: cynical ploy to just tie students to Russian propaganda mechanisms. 209 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: In other words, was he coming from the right place? 210 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: Can we give him any benefit of the doubt. Of course, 211 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 1: his execution in stomping on citizens' rights was not right, 212 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: but the fear. Was there any integrity to his fear 213 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: or was it just paranoia? 214 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: I'm unaccustomed I must say to say good things about 215 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 2: Richard Nixon, but in this case I really have to. 216 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: In a way, you'll see what I mean. Nixon could 217 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 2: not fathom the idea that he could be unpopular across 218 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: the country. Richard Nixon, he got elected to the presidency, 219 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 2: How could I possibly be unpopular? So he had trouble 220 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: understanding that, and he convinced himself, maybe with the nudging 221 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: of Henry Kissinger, I wouldn't be surprised that it must 222 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: be the Russians that are causing this trouble. How else 223 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 2: could it be explained. He's such a wonderful person himself, 224 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 2: who could love Richard Nixon? So he thought, so there 225 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: had to be an explanation, and that's the one he 226 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: came up with, and he wanted to prove it empirically 227 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: through violating a host of US laws. Was created in 228 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: nineteen forty seven with a foreign mandate, and it was 229 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 2: expressly prohibited in its founding statue to conduct operations inside 230 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 2: the United States. Yet Richard Holmes, the director of the CIA, 231 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: signed on to Houston Plant anyway, So I think in 232 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 2: a way one can understand Nixon's motives. I think they 233 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 2: were wrong, but he really did believe that the Communists 234 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: were behind all of this, and. 235 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: He went into to those operations, the Houston Plan, probably 236 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: with a lot of confirmation bias in place, just looking 237 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: to prove a connect as opposed to looking to discover 238 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: a connection. 239 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 2: Well, yes, and you know, these four agency directors I 240 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: mentioned were happy to play along with us with their 241 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: own motives. 242 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,719 Speaker 1: And why did others so readily jump on board these programs. 243 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: We could start with Hoover, who was really, in some 244 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: ways the key player here, and he hated student protesters, 245 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: he hated civil rights activists. The person he despised above 246 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: all others in the United States of America was doctor 247 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: Martin Luther King. So here's the president, officially within the 248 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: Oval Office, telling him to go out and spy on 249 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: these people. It was wonderful news for Hoover. He was 250 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: already doing some of that anyway, but this sort of 251 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: gave it the upper moter of the White House. In 252 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: the case of Richard Elms was a different motivation. Okay, 253 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: let's play along with the President. We don't buy this 254 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: Russian puppet hypothesis. That's not going on at all. We 255 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 2: know that from tracing the Russians and what they're up to. 256 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: But if the Nixon wants to us to give us money, 257 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: some of that to spy on those crazy students out 258 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: at Berkeley, We're going to use a big part of 259 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: that money to do our own activities to see if, 260 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: in fact the Russians are doing things of a malicious 261 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: nature directly against the United States. And the NSA felt 262 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: the same way. Here's a bag of money that will 263 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 2: allow us to do what we want to do anyway, 264 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: and we'll let Nixon think we're going along with his 265 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: nutty hypothesis. 266 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: So in the case of the FBI, it was, oh, yeah, 267 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: we're totally aligned on this needs to obliterate the rights 268 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: of our city survail them. But in the case of 269 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: the NSA and the CIA, it was, oh, sure, we'll 270 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: just take some money. Yeah, it's neither one is necessarily 271 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: a very noble No. 272 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: And you know what I still reel in my mind 273 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: when I think about is Richard Holmes a director of 274 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 2: the CIA. 275 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: No relation. 276 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 2: By the way, No, and Noel Guilerc. We're willing to 277 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: go along with this official, albeit secret plan despy on 278 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 2: American citizens. What they should have said is, mister President, 279 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: there are laws against CI in the NSA from doing this, 280 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: and we're not going to do it. But that's not 281 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: the position they do. 282 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: So I know you've written about the shock theory of 283 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: congressional oversight for intelligence. I wonder if you could just 284 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: tell us what that is quickly and then tell us 285 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: how that applied in that moment to the church hearings. 286 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: In other words, what precipitated the church hearings, why did 287 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: they happen when they did, and is that an example 288 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: of your theory? 289 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 2: Yes, I must say I'm extremely impressed that you've looked 290 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: at the shock theory of intelligence, because that's pretty esoteric stuff, 291 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: and I commend you and thank you for looking at that. 292 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: I'm a very esoteric person. 293 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: The idea is, these members of Congress have a lot 294 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: going on and mainly raising money so they keep themselves 295 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 2: getting re elected, so they don't do a lot of 296 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: accountability when it comes to keeping a close eye on 297 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: the executive branch, even though the genius, the magnificent center 298 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 2: of our constitution is Madison's notion of checks and balances 299 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 2: and how Congress would be a check against the most 300 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: dangerous thing in the history of humanity, and that is 301 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: political power out of control. So that was the theory 302 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: of our Constitution coming mainly from the brow of James Madison, 303 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: and members of Congress often don't really uphold that at all. 304 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 2: In fact, it's rare to find someone like Frank Church 305 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 2: who takes accountability seriously and spends the hours checking up 306 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: on these agencies as he did. We have a few 307 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 2: people like that today too, I'd say Mark Warner of Virginia, 308 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: for example, but there aren't too many. So what happens 309 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: is people are lackadaisical on the hill despite the ghost 310 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: of Madison and looking down at them when it comes 311 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,479 Speaker 2: to checking the abuse of power in the executive branch, 312 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 2: and those abuses occur, and sometimes they occur of a 313 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 2: magnitude that it becomes a scandal, and that's when the 314 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 2: shock comes in. The members of Congress are shocked into 315 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: waking up into realizing the genius of the Madisonian checks 316 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 2: and balances, and they're finally convinced to do their job. 317 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 2: So you have major investigations and then often new laws 318 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 2: or pass and new internal regulations, and then they go 319 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: back to their complacency and worrying about re election again. 320 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 2: And then unfortunately another shock comes along because they haven't 321 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: been watching what these agencies are doing, and it starts 322 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 2: over again. 323 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: So it's just kind of this sine wave of ye 324 00:18:54,840 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: to problematic surveillance and doing investigations, calling it out, making adjustments. 325 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: And the Church Committee was maybe the first big example 326 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: of that as the shock from the CIA's Operation Chaos emergers. 327 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about the way that the 328 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: Church hearings played out in popular culture at that time. 329 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: What did the news coverage feel like? Did Frank Church 330 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: play into that? Was he participating in a kind of 331 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: a public narrative of the committee hearings? And if so, how. 332 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 2: The CI is flying on American citizens? Are you kidding? 333 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 2: That was blockbuster news and that spread across a country 334 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 2: like a prairie friar, and the end result was members 335 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: of Congress and virtually every congressional constituency in state realized 336 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 2: they had to look into this because people were upset. 337 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 2: What do you mean the CI is flying honors? George 338 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 2: Orwell was right, Only it's not nineteen eighty four, It's 339 00:19:58,720 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: only nineteen seventy five. 340 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: I'd love to know what it was like to be 341 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: in those rooms, in those depositions, in those hearings. Did 342 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: it feel like you were part of something that really 343 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: might change our government for the better? And was it exhilarating? 344 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:17,959 Speaker 1: I guess is my question. 345 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: I think exhilarating is a good word for it. And 346 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 2: we worked seemed like around the clock. We worked very hard, 347 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 2: all the staff and the senators as well, and we 348 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: were all stunned. Frankly, I think the Phillip Haart moment 349 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 2: when we were talking about cointelpro and public hearings was 350 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 2: the pinnacle of this astonishment that we talked about in public. 351 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 2: But throughout the hearings and throughout our depositions and so on, 352 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: it was almost a daily dose of being amazed and 353 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 2: appalled at what these agencies had done. In some cases, 354 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: now I'll just keep in mind, I would say that 355 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 2: most of the people in these agencies were doing what 356 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: they were designed to do, and that is to gather 357 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: information from around the world about our enemies. You began 358 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: this program, Ed, I think, in a very wonderful way, 359 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 2: by pointing out the dilemma between the need to have 360 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: these agencies to help protect us by gathering information about 361 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,239 Speaker 2: the furious people overseas who mean to harm us. We 362 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 2: need to have that information. But then they have these 363 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 2: capabilities which if misuse, can be a great threat to 364 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: our own democracy. And we saw that in the Houston Plan, 365 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: and there are other examples today. Just very quickly, let 366 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 2: me say that we are under threat. We have intelligence 367 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: agencies with the most phenomenal technical capabilities. If a dictator 368 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 2: were to take over America and use these agencies to 369 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: maintain their power and to obliterate their opposition, that could 370 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: be done. There would be no place to hide. Let's 371 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 2: say Ed and I gathered together in some secret location 372 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: because we wanted to be a resistance against the dictator. 373 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 2: They would know about it. This would be an abyss. 374 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 2: And what we tried to do on the Church Committee, 375 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 2: and I think people are continuing to do if they've 376 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 2: got their head screwed on right, is to make sure 377 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: these agencies with this enormous technological surveillance power that they 378 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: have are kept in check and are led by the 379 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 2: rule of law, and are kept accountable by the few 380 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 2: people who take accountability serious. And what, by the way, 381 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 2: the good news here is it only takes a few, really, 382 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: it takes a Frank Church and a less Asphin and 383 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: some of these other people to really keep these people honus. 384 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: But it's a perilous situation because these agencies have great 385 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 2: powers and they could be misused. 386 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: Again, let's go a little higher altitude now, just stepping 387 00:22:54,640 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: out above the Church hearings. What are the main takeaways 388 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: from the hearings, both from a practical policy standpoint and 389 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: from a kind of general public disposition standpoint. 390 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 2: I would say that the tone changed in Washington, d c. 391 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 2: From the belief and intelligence exceptionalism to an understanding as 392 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: a result of cointelpro and chaos and a number of 393 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:28,479 Speaker 2: other abuses by these agencies, that that doesn't work. That 394 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 2: we had to bring the secret agencies into the American 395 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 2: government and subject them to the same laws and same 396 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: accountability as the Department of Agriculture or any other agency 397 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 2: in the government. So it was the difference between night 398 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 2: and day ed when it came to controlling these agencies 399 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 2: and supervising them and all this was leading. And I 400 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 2: think this is the major contribution of the Church Committee 401 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: to creating permanent oversight committees that would watch the activities 402 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 2: of these agencies day in and day out. Now it's 403 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: hardly been perfect, because sometimes the committees are active and 404 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 2: aggressive and understand the Madisonian need for checks and balances, 405 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: and sometimes they haven't worked too well. Richard Holmes always 406 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: used to argue to me that two committees were one 407 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: too many. There ought to be a joint committee so 408 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: he didn't have to go to the Senate and then 409 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: the House and say the same kinds of things. And 410 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 2: I mentioned this true friend of mine. My friend said, yeah, 411 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: but when you're flying in an airplane, it's better to 412 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 2: have two engines rather than just one. And I think 413 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 2: that's true in this case, because sometimes the Senate Committee 414 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 2: is filled with some good people and they're active and 415 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 2: they're keeping an eye on things, and then sometimes it's 416 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 2: the Houses performing that duty. 417 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: The sort of fallout from the Church Committee was pretty massive, 418 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: a new kind of a new ethos on Capitol Hill 419 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: on how to maintain integrity in these surveillance operations. I 420 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: think we're really just exploring that ongoing question of where 421 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: is the line, how do you find the balance between 422 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: between security and citizens' rights, and when it comes to 423 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: the necessary secret operations of a government and the slippery 424 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: slope into compromising the rights of citizens. I'd love to 425 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: get to nine to eleven and the Patriot Act and 426 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: where I think a lot of these questions, a lot 427 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: of that tension really came to a head. Talk to 428 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: us about the aftermath of nine to eleven in terms 429 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: of these Church Committee reforms and how it really threatened 430 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: where things stood. 431 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 2: I think it's been something of a roller coaster ride sometimes, 432 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: these principles put in place by the Church Committee, that 433 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 2: is an emphasis on the rule of law and a 434 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: belief that no president, no intelligence agency is above the law. Now, 435 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: whether or not the Supreme Court, which is looking at 436 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: that question right now, has the wisdom to understand that 437 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 2: no president is above the law is another matter. We'll 438 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 2: find out. People have had different views on these things 439 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: over the years, and in the crucible of war or 440 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 2: a terrorist activity, the Constitution begins to take on malleable 441 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 2: proportions for some people. So let's look at nine to eleven. 442 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: Soon after nine to eleven, Bush two led around by 443 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 2: the nose, by and large by Dick Cheney, his vice president, 444 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: who is much more of a foreign policy expert than 445 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: Bush two was Bush who relied on him a lot. 446 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 2: Those two brought the director of the CIA over to 447 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: the White House to them, Look, you've got to use 448 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 2: the NSA to make sure we don't have any more 449 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: nine to eleven. We've got a really big more robust 450 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: in our use of surveillance, and you may even have 451 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: to surveil American citizens who might have connections with Terrists. 452 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 2: And the director of the NSA at the time, General Hayden, said, 453 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: mister President, I don't have the authority to do some 454 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: of the things you want me to do. And Dick 455 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: Cheney basically said to him, get out of this office, 456 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: go back to Fort Meade with the NSA and do 457 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 2: what we told you to do. So he went back 458 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 2: to the NSA, General Hayden and talked to his chief 459 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 2: counsel and said to him, look, the President wants to 460 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 2: go Article two. And as you know, Article two of 461 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 2: the Constitution gives the president a lot of authority, and 462 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: so what he meant by that was the President wants 463 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 2: to forget about the laws on Capitol Hill. We had 464 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: a terrorist attack, we might have new terrorist attacks, so 465 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 2: unleash the powers of the NSA to make sure that 466 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 2: you do them utmost you can. What should have happened 467 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 2: is that Bush should have sent Hayden up to Capitol 468 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 2: Hell and said, look, we need wider authorities because we've 469 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 2: learned from nine to eleven that we're under a threat 470 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 2: and we have to do more to surveil our potential enemies. 471 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 2: But no, that's not what happened. The Bush to administration 472 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 2: just decided junilaterally in the confines of the Obel Office, 473 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: to tell the NSA director to forget the law, go 474 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 2: and do whatever he needed to do. That led to 475 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 2: as Ed Snowden eventually leaked to us, so we know 476 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 2: about it, the indiscriminate use of NSA's electronic surveillance powers 477 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: against a lot of American citizens. In fact, all of 478 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: us really were examined in terms of our so called metadata, 479 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 2: the telephone conversations we made to whom and so on, Now, 480 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: not the content of them. The NSA didn't go that 481 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: far for most of us at least, but it was 482 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: really it really had gone beyond all expectations from the 483 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 2: Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, because remember that Act said you 484 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 2: want to use electronic surveillance against an American citizen, you 485 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: go to the Foreign Surveillance Court and get a warrant. 486 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: I'm going to say that again because it's so important, 487 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 2: get a warrant if you're going to surveil. 488 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: Someone a United States citizen. 489 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 2: And the United says citizen, yes, thank you. But that's 490 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 2: not what the NSA decided to do with the blessing 491 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: of the Bush to White House. So Snowden leaked this. 492 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: What he should have done, of course, and he didn't, 493 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: is to go to the Senator House Intelligence committees and 494 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: tell him, look, this is what's going on. Go through 495 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 2: official channels. But has said he leaked all this information 496 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 2: to the Post and to the Guardian in England. 497 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: Do you think he would have found a sympathetic audience 498 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: had he gone through the right. 499 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely, because I know a lot of those players, I 500 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: know a lot of the staff people, and they tell 501 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: me that if you had come up there, they certainly 502 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 2: would have pursued them. 503 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: Well, do you think the public would have as much 504 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: of an awareness of what was going on. 505 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 2: I think so, because I think that the committees would 506 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: have been so shocked by this, at least some members 507 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: of the committees. Diane Finstein would be an example that 508 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: there would have been public hearings and probably an inquiry, 509 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: maybe not at the magnitude of Church Committee. They're an investigation. 510 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: So it's too bad to snowden Wind as far as 511 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 2: he did, because that initial instinct of his was a 512 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 2: good one. 513 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: So the metadata program is a great example of blanket 514 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: surveillance where you're just like throwing this massive net out 515 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: there and pulling in an incredible amount of data. What 516 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,719 Speaker 1: are the drawbacks of that? Just from a practical intelligence standpoint, 517 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: but in the ethics aside, what are there Actually? Are 518 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: there more practical reasons that is not the best way 519 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:02,239 Speaker 1: to go about it. 520 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, For one thing, you get what I would call 521 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 2: the fire hose effect. It's like calling a fire hose 522 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 2: to your mouth and all this data is coming in 523 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 2: because you begin to collect everything inside and discriminately. Then 524 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: you store it out in these vaults in Utah that 525 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: the NSA has built out there, and then people can 526 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 2: go back and look at our conversations and whenever they 527 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: want to later on without a warrant to do any 528 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: of that. Well, even a few days ago, and remember 529 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 2: the section seven oh two of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance 530 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 2: Act was renewed. 531 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: Just to clarify quickly for our listeners. Section seven oh 532 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: two is part of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, 533 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: which permits the intelligence community to conduct targeted surveillance of 534 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: foreigners outside the US. 535 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: Yes, and the FBI and NSA and others said, we've 536 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 2: got to have this. It stops terrorism and if we don't, 537 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 2: we're going to put America. That was all bologney, And 538 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: yet a majority of both the houses the Senate went 539 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 2: along with here. But in reality, the metadata program and 540 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 2: this other related program really hasn't come up with anything 541 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 2: of any use. Sure, people in secret agencies come to 542 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 2: you and say, oh, listen, you've got to trust us. 543 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: We know what's going on, and there's great danger out there, 544 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 2: and if you don't trust us, it's going to be catastrophic. 545 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: Fear is it a very powerful motivator, if not the 546 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: most powerful human motivator. 547 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you remember Roosevelt's famous comment about fear. The 548 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Yeah, 549 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 2: and we do it. 550 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: Gets which sounds like very difficult feedback loop psychologically. But 551 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: is it ever not, bolooney, Is there ever a time 552 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: when the danger is so great that some of these 553 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: compromises are necessary? And I think I know your answer, 554 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: but it's an important question. There are a lot of 555 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: people out there who who think, Look, if I've got 556 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: nothing to hide, then I've got nothing to worry about. 557 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: Surveillance is keeping me safe? How are they wrong? Why 558 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: should I worry about massive surveillance powers on the part 559 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: of my government that they're not going to come after me? 560 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: Do you want your government to know everything about you 561 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 2: inside out? Do you want them to know your sexual preferences, 562 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: your religious activities, what you eat, right you spend your week. 563 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 2: That's not the kind of society that I want to 564 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 2: live in. I don't want big Brother hanging over my 565 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: shoulder all the time. And that's what could happen. 566 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: You mentioned this awesome power of technology. It seems to 567 00:33:52,320 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: me that with the just unbelievably fast growth of artificial intelligence, 568 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,959 Speaker 1: and you mentioned the fire hose effect, blanket surveillance can 569 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,439 Speaker 1: just give you too much data so that it becomes 570 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 1: impossible to analyze and impossible to actually even catch bad 571 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: guys because you're just swimming in too much data. Well, 572 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: it seems like with artificial intelligence that may change that 573 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: data analysis becomes a whole different proposition when these kind 574 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: of superhuman computer forces are at work. And of course 575 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: these advances in facial recognition gate recognition, which can be 576 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: accomplished from great distances. That's when an artificial intelligence can 577 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: actually identify you by the way that you walk, which 578 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: they can do with startling accuracy. So with all of 579 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: these advances and the sort of growth of power, do 580 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: you think we have the right checks and balances to 581 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: keep this in check or are we getting into difficult 582 00:34:58,600 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: territory again. 583 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 2: I think the truth of the matter when it comes 584 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 2: to artificial intelligence is that we're not really sure what 585 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 2: the end result is going to be. There are some 586 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 2: very positive aspects of it from an intelligence point of view, 587 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 2: because these machines can do a lot of mundane tasks 588 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 2: at a very high speed, which would take human beings 589 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 2: maybe months or even years to do, so that can 590 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 2: help analysts. Intelligence analysts understand certain aspects of the world. 591 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 2: Let's say that you're interested in where ships have been 592 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 2: attacked by terrorists sea over the past one hundred years, 593 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 2: so that you can begin to have a model of 594 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 2: where you are to concentrate your defenses. That would take 595 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 2: a lot of work for you and I to sit 596 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 2: down and pour through all the documents and try and 597 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 2: put that together. But if you feed that information into 598 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 2: a computer with a certain algorithm, you can find the 599 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 2: patterns very quickly. So that's going to be helpful, I 600 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 2: think for some analytic problems. But then, as you suggest, 601 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 2: what about the downside? I have to say I sometimes 602 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 2: have nightmares about this whole notion of deep fakes, and 603 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 2: not really eventually if you and I'm being able to 604 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 2: understand what's true and what is is that really you 605 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 2: I'm looking at or is it some fake thing that 606 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 2: I'm looking at. 607 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: And we're moments away from being able to perpetrate a 608 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: deep fake in real time. It's one thing to present 609 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: a video of a deep fake, but it's another thing 610 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: to have a live conversation with somebody that's also a 611 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 1: deep fake, right, Yeah, And that's and we're very close 612 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: to that, and these are becoming what's really scary is 613 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: that they're accessible to anyone in technology. So yeah, I 614 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: agree with you, Mike. 615 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 2: I can remember maybe fifteen years ago, so quite a 616 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 2: while ago before people were talking about AI seeing a 617 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: CIA video of Saddam Hussein when I was out visiting 618 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 2: the to do some interviews, and the CIA had managed 619 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 2: to change his lip configuration a little bit through computer 620 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 2: manipulation and then have him saying something that he really 621 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 2: didn't say. And then that video was distributed in certain 622 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 2: parts of the world where we were trying to fool 623 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 2: people into thinking that Saddam is even worse than he 624 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 2: actually was. And that was a long time ago. Now 625 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,760 Speaker 2: that skill has been refined considerably. Or take autonomous weapons. 626 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 2: We're going to use artificial intelligence to send weapons out 627 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 2: to fight our enemies, and the instruction to the weapon. 628 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 2: Let's be a hypothetical example, and let's use bin Laden 629 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 2: and take it back to that time period, and the 630 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,439 Speaker 2: instruction to the drone would be, if you see anyone 631 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 2: who's six ' five or taller, obliterates them. So the 632 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 2: autonomous weapon goes flying out there and looking for someone 633 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 2: who's six ' five or better. There are a lot 634 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 2: of people who are maybe not a lot, but more 635 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 2: people than Ben Lauden's just six ' five. In the 636 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 2: Middle East. So the autonomous weapons indicate to us I 637 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: think how artificial intelligence can really get out of hand here. 638 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: So tell our listeners a little bit about section seven 639 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: oh two and what has brought it recently back into 640 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: the news. 641 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 2: I think the basic idea of seven oh two is 642 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 2: that the NSA believes that it has to have special 643 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 2: powers to protect the American people against particularly terrorists and 644 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 2: also Russian intervention so on. And seven oh two allows 645 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 2: the FBI to gather through electronic methods information about American 646 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 2: citizens who may be in contact with suspected terrorists overseas. 647 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 2: But the trouble is that definition is very fuzzy, and 648 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 2: often these people who have been so object to electronic 649 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 2: surveilance it turned out really had no reason to be 650 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,320 Speaker 2: surveiled at all. They were just a law abiding American citizens. 651 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 2: And then all this information that has been gathered, and 652 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: this has been going on for since the bush To administration, 653 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 2: is stored in Utah and other places and now can 654 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 2: be visited by FBI officers who dig through it and 655 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,439 Speaker 2: have the carte blanche to find out whatever they want 656 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 2: about people in those files. So the essence, ed is 657 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,359 Speaker 2: that we are the Church meeting. And I think most 658 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,919 Speaker 2: of civil libertarians believe of a right and left wing 659 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 2: persuasion and the middle that you should have a warrant 660 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 2: if you think you need to surveil someone electronically, and 661 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 2: the section seven oh two makes that very fuzzy. And 662 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 2: the NSA and the FBI will say, well, look, we 663 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 2: don't have time to get a warrant in some cases, 664 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 2: that is boloney. That argument so many times, particularly from 665 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 2: the CI we don't have to get a fund, but 666 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 2: we don't want to get approval from the White House 667 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 2: and report to Capitol Hill because we need to move quickly. 668 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 2: The America's survival may be at stake. No, no, no, 669 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 2: that's a kind of ticking bomb scenario which is maybe 670 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 2: theoretically interesting but not actual. And so there is time 671 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 2: to get a warrant, and there is time to get 672 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 2: presidential approofal for COVID actions. And by the way, I've 673 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 2: seen these approvals go just like that. Members of Congress 674 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 2: are not ignorant of the fact that there could be emergencies. 675 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 2: So there are procedures in which you can really get 676 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 2: a warrant immediately if you've got a good reason for 677 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 2: doing so. But you have to make the case. You 678 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,879 Speaker 2: have to show the evidence as to why you should 679 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 2: be surveiling Ed Helms or Lork Johnson. And that's really important, 680 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 2: and that spells the difference between the way they do 681 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 2: business in North Korea and the way we should be 682 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 2: doing business in a constitutional government. 683 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: Is seven O two you under examination right now? 684 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 2: Well, it was on Capitol Hill and there was a 685 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 2: vote held in both the Senate and the House to 686 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 2: renew seven ZH two to allow the NSA to use 687 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 2: this fuzzy language to have wire tabs in which one 688 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 2: of the parties might be an American citizen without really 689 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 2: making the case before the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that 690 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 2: this American citizen is suspicious and ought to be surveiled. 691 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 2: That is no longer necessary because both the House and 692 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 2: the Senate by neuro majorities, but nonetheless majorities. Seven oh 693 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,879 Speaker 2: two is now ongoing. Very controversial though, and it makes 694 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 2: for strange bedfellows because you get people on the far 695 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 2: left and people on the far right saying, wait a minute, 696 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 2: this is threat to civil liberties and it truly is. 697 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 2: And I was disappointed to see it happen. And the 698 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 2: Church Committee is I think monumental in its effect because 699 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 2: it introduced this whole new era in which these agencies 700 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 2: now are part of the American government and expected to 701 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,280 Speaker 2: behave in a constitutional, law abiding fashion. That is revolutionary 702 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 2: compared to what we had before. 703 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of the 704 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: really recent surveillance going on on campuses? Now? How is 705 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: surveillance being used in this contemporary context and is it responsible? 706 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 2: I don't think anyone knows other than those people who 707 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:37,720 Speaker 2: are directly involved in those who have responsibility for maintaining accountability. 708 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 2: So if we were able to go into the inner 709 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 2: sanctums of the Senate and the House Intelligence committees, we 710 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 2: could get some very up to date answers to that, 711 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 2: if indeed they would answer them to be highly classified information. 712 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,800 Speaker 2: And of course in the higher reaches of the Biden 713 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 2: administration you'd be able to find answers too. But speculating 714 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 2: as an outsider who has been following these countries things 715 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:05,800 Speaker 2: for over forty years, and given the tenor the tone 716 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 2: of the Biden administration, I would be willing to bet 717 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 2: that the pies of procedures of foreign intelligence surveillance court 718 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 2: procedures are being used if necessary, and let's use a 719 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 2: hypothetical case. Let's say that some Hamas person has slipped 720 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 2: across our southern border and is now trying to provoke 721 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 2: trouble on Columbia or UCLA or someplace. My guess is 722 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 2: there would be authorized surveillance against a person like that, 723 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 2: done in a legal fashion of the PISA warrant. But 724 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,280 Speaker 2: I'm not positive. And that gets us back, as American citizens, 725 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 2: to hoping that the people in these powerful positions on 726 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 2: the National Security Council, with the Senate Intelligence Committee and 727 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 2: the House Intelligence Committee understand James Madison understand the most 728 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 2: important principle to emerge in the Church Committee that no president, 729 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 2: no intelligence agent, is above the law. We have to 730 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 2: hope that there are people like that in place, and 731 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 2: I think there are, and I think usually there will be. 732 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 2: But and now, thanks to the Church Committee, they've been 733 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 2: armed with important laws like Hughes Ryan and the nineteen 734 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:19,399 Speaker 2: eighty Intelligence Overside Act and the Foreign Intelligence Surveilans Act. 735 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,800 Speaker 2: So it's a world of difference. Now there's no guarantee 736 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 2: that wrong minded people might bypass all of this apparatus 737 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 2: to keep us safe, and that's the danger. And you 738 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 2: get someone in the White House who flips the bird 739 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 2: at the whole notion of accountability and supervision, things go 740 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:41,360 Speaker 2: off track very rapidly. 741 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: Let's hope we've learned those lessons at a very deep level. 742 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's hope. 743 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,800 Speaker 1: And you are a big part of that. Lock Johnson, 744 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you for everything you've done for our country. Thanks. 745 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:54,239 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. 746 00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 1: SNAFU is a production of iHeartRadio, Film, Nation Entertainment, Pacific 747 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,800 Speaker 1: Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. This season 748 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: of SNAFO is based on the book The Burglary The 749 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,320 Speaker 1: Discovery of Jay Edgar Hoover's Secret FBI, written by Betty Metzger. 750 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:16,280 Speaker 1: It's executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, Mike Valbo, 751 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: Whitney Donaldson, Andy Chug, Dylan Fagan, and Betty Metzger. Our 752 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: lead producers are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Producer is 753 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: Stephen Wood. Our associate producer Tory Smith edited this bonus episode. 754 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: Nevin Calla Poly is our production assistant. Fact checking by 755 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,319 Speaker 1: Charles Richter. Our creative executive is Brett Harris Editing, sound 756 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 1: design and original music by Ben Chug, Engineering and technical 757 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 1: direction by Nick Dooley theme music by Dan Rosatto. Special 758 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 1: thanks to Alison Cohen, Daniel Welsh, and Ben Rizak. Additional 759 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 1: thanks to director Johanna Hamilton for letting us use some 760 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:56,800 Speaker 1: of the original interviews from her incredible documentary nineteen seventy one. Finally, 761 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: our deepest gratitude to the courageous Citizens com Mission to 762 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 1: Investigate the FBI Bill Davidon, Ralph Daniel, Judy Finegeld, Heath Forsyth, 763 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: Bonnie Rains, John Rains, Sarah Schumer and Bob Williamson.