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Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: This week. One of my favorite guests Michael Lewis. What

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Speaker 1: what can I say about him? His books are just

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Speaker 1: required reading for anyone interested in finance or psychology of money,

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Speaker 1: and we speak about a lot of really interesting things.

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Speaker 1: We talk about season two of his podcast Against the Rules.

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Speaker 1: The first season was about referees. The second season is

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Speaker 1: about coaches. And this doesn't just apply to sports. This

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Speaker 1: is about referees in the real world. Uh, coaches in

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Speaker 1: the real world, How how things operate, How coaches affects

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Speaker 1: students and children and and everybody essentially, including Michael Lewis,

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Speaker 1: who claims he would not have been a writer but

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Speaker 1: for coach Fits in high school changed his life. Really

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Speaker 1: just quite fascinating. We also discuss his book The Fifth

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Speaker 1: Risk and how prescient it was about ignoring the importance

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Speaker 1: of government in trying to create an entity that can

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Speaker 1: respond to sudden and unexpected events such as the COVID

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Speaker 1: nineteen pandemic. H The discussion about what went right and

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Speaker 1: wrong in the prep for that is really quite fascinating. Lewis,

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Speaker 1: isn't some sort of uh left wing um you know,

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Speaker 1: Berkeley based ideologue. He just cares about management and competency

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Speaker 1: and organizational um excellence, and he's frustrated when when we

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Speaker 1: don't have that. So, rather than me continue to talk

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Speaker 1: with no further ado. My interview with Michael Lewis v

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Speaker 1: see his Master's in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: My special guest today needs no introduction. He is the

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Speaker 1: author of Flyers, Poker, money Ball, The Big Short, The Blindside, Flashboys,

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Speaker 1: The Undoing Project. I'm gonna stop there and just say,

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Speaker 1: Michael Lewis, welcome to Bloomberg. Well, thanks for having me back. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is our third or fourth one. That's uh. We

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Speaker 1: did one live and two in the students. This will

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Speaker 1: be the second one in the studio. Last we spoke,

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Speaker 1: you were just launching your first season of a new

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Speaker 1: podcast called Against the Rules. What was that experience? Like,

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Speaker 1: what what did you learn being a podcaster? So it's

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Speaker 1: been that long, um, because that would have been that

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Speaker 1: would have been a little more than a year ago, right,

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Speaker 1: it is, it's been. It's at this stage of my career,

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Speaker 1: it's amazing and delightful to find a whole new thing

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Speaker 1: to do. This is as sort of enriching as this

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Speaker 1: thing has been. So he's I found. Um One, the

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Speaker 1: audience is huge, and and it's and and different in

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Speaker 1: nature from a book audience. People listen to these things

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Speaker 1: differently than they read, and it's a more emotional connection

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Speaker 1: you have with with the audience. So people, um will

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Speaker 1: come up to me and say, oh, I really liked

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Speaker 1: your book, but it's a cool kind of thing. And

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Speaker 1: when people come up and they like the podcast, it's

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Speaker 1: almost like they want to hug you. Uh. Then they

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Speaker 1: feel like, I think there's something about the human voice.

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Speaker 1: They feel like they know you in a different way.

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Speaker 1: And I was gonna say something you had said to

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Speaker 1: me that I've slowly come around to accepting the book

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Speaker 1: people read isn't necessarily the book you wrote. And originally

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Speaker 1: I pushed back, and now I'm kinda okay. I kind

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Speaker 1: of see that when you're doing an interview, when it's

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Speaker 1: just having a conversation or discussing stuff in an audio format,

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Speaker 1: people really think like they know you personally. It's a

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Speaker 1: very different connection between author and reader versus podcasting r

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Speaker 1: podcaster and listener. So there's some overlap, and the overlap

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Speaker 1: nature of my podcast is the storytelling podcast. And it's scripted,

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Speaker 1: and it's laid out and structured in the same way

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Speaker 1: a long piece of writing would be laid out in structured.

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Speaker 1: But but it um the form encourages the creator to

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Speaker 1: move in certain directions, and in particularly encourage the creator

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Speaker 1: moving emotional directions. It's an emotional it's an emotional connection

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Speaker 1: you have. People are more likely to laugh and more

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Speaker 1: likely to cry than they are with the printed the

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Speaker 1: word on the page, and they're less likely to like

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Speaker 1: sit through a description of a collateralized debt obligation. It's

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's harder and it's harder to do that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, but it but but the raw ingredients

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Speaker 1: of a story in some ways work better in the

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Speaker 1: audio than they do on on the printed page. They're

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Speaker 1: both great, you know, I don't I'm not leaving one

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Speaker 1: for the other. It's just been I feel like almost

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Speaker 1: like I spent my career um as a as a

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Speaker 1: like a weightlifter with only using my legs, and now

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Speaker 1: someone has allowed me to lift with my arms. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and I'm working all these other muscles that I just

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Speaker 1: I've never worked and and it just feels. It feels

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Speaker 1: both it's fun to do. It's a way to get material,

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Speaker 1: get to material I would have a hard time getting

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Speaker 1: to in print, and and it will make the print

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Speaker 1: stuff better. I mean, I just have no question about

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Speaker 1: that now. So, so, the first season of Against the

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Speaker 1: Rules was about referees in sports and finance and life.

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Speaker 1: What brought you to that concept of referees? And are

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Speaker 1: you staying with a theme about now? The new season

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Speaker 1: is about coaches, So there is there will be a

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Speaker 1: theme that runs through. I sort of laid out seven

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Speaker 1: sea reasons in my head at some point and seven

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Speaker 1: and seven seasons, seven seasons of seven episodes each. Um.

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Speaker 1: Now whether those get done or not, well, I we'll see.

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Speaker 1: But the but, but the the The idea in the

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Speaker 1: beginning was to look at to look at American life

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Speaker 1: through through characters in American life, in particular roles that

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Speaker 1: have been in flux where you've seen some movement in

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Speaker 1: the status the situation of the role. So the referee

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Speaker 1: was an easy one to start with because you could

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Speaker 1: you could kind of show that, I mean, even in sports,

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Speaker 1: it was easy to show the way refs have gotten

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Speaker 1: kind of better and better and better but people hated

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Speaker 1: him more and more and more. And it was that

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Speaker 1: you could see that and you could this is extend

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Speaker 1: that from sports to other things where you see referees

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Speaker 1: under attack for various reasons. And and um that that

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Speaker 1: character interested in me because I did feel like the

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Speaker 1: theme that would run through all the episodes was fairness. Um,

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Speaker 1: it would be kind of like inequality, fair and unfairness,

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Speaker 1: the feelings that are very much alive right now in

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Speaker 1: in American life. And I was just gonna and I'd

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Speaker 1: be playing with that those ideas through this character and

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Speaker 1: the character, and we do a number of different stories

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Speaker 1: about the character. So going to the second season, it

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Speaker 1: was never gonna be about reveres. It's gonna be about

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Speaker 1: something else. And I had seven characters in my mind.

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Speaker 1: It was a question of which came next, and coach

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Speaker 1: I went to coaches. I went to coaches one because

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Speaker 1: it preserved, it reserved an option that I thought maybe

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Speaker 1: I'd want to have of keeping the entire seven seasons

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Speaker 1: inside of an arena. That every role is is someone

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Speaker 1: who's actually inside of an arena during a sporting of it. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: in the second season, it's not all sports. Coaches in fact,

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Speaker 1: it's very seldom sports coaches. There are only two or

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Speaker 1: three of the episodes that have sports coaches in them.

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Speaker 1: Uh but but but the you know, the spirit and

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Speaker 1: thing still right arises out of athletics. Yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: was pretty obvious as soon as I started listening to

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Speaker 1: the season two. It's like, okay, so first referees, now coaches.

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Speaker 1: I wonder when he's gonna start getting into you know,

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Speaker 1: the guy that tapes up your rankles and and and

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Speaker 1: the ticket seller. How much is it gonna stay with sports?

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Speaker 1: But the other thing that stands out writing is a

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Speaker 1: pretty solitary act. You can still speak with people and

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Speaker 1: do research and interview people, but ultimately it's you sitting

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Speaker 1: in front of a keyboard or a pen and paper.

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Speaker 1: How have you transitioned to sort of the ensemble um approach?

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Speaker 1: And I know that Pushkin Industries who puts out your podcast.

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Speaker 1: It was founded by Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg, who

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Speaker 1: were too old buddies of yours, yes, and who now

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Speaker 1: sit around at a table during a table read when

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Speaker 1: I have a rough draft and tell me what what

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Speaker 1: what sucks about it? Um? It's it's one of the

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Speaker 1: joys of the form that it's not an individual sport

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Speaker 1: like writing books is basically an individual sport UM, but

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Speaker 1: this is that the other people who participate in this UM,

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Speaker 1: the producers, the editors, Malcolm and Jacob, have huge effects

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Speaker 1: on the product, on what on how it all turns out.

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Speaker 1: And that's been great. It took me a little while

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Speaker 1: to get used to people telling me that I'm wrong

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Speaker 1: or people are people taking you know, it's more of this.

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Speaker 1: It's like people taking stuff that I thought, Wow, that's

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Speaker 1: great and sort of saying that's not really great. Uh,

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Speaker 1: we can do you can do this this way. And

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Speaker 1: it's a it is a new form, you know. I

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Speaker 1: have a lot to learn. UM. So that's been it's

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Speaker 1: been stretching, it's been it's just like been a really

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Speaker 1: great thing. And I like all the people, love all

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Speaker 1: the people who I'm working with. UM. So we have

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Speaker 1: a little TA team, and the team kind of gets

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Speaker 1: each other. Now we've now done it. I'm just I'm

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Speaker 1: about to put to bed the last episode of the

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Speaker 1: second season. So that's our fourteenth episode. So we've done

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Speaker 1: this fourteen times together, and they're getting I think they

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Speaker 1: know me now and I know them. And that's a

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Speaker 1: lovely feeling. I mean, I haven't had that feeling in

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Speaker 1: a long time. Um and and it's you get it

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Speaker 1: in businesses. I'm sure I don't have one. You get

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Speaker 1: it in sports. You know you missed. I missed. I've

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Speaker 1: missed that feeling. So that's been just like another another

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Speaker 1: another thing about it. It's been all pleasure. My extra

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Speaker 1: special guest is Michael Lewis. You know him from I'm

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Speaker 1: not even gonna list the books, but I do want

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Speaker 1: to talk about two of his recent books. One is

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Speaker 1: The Fifth Risk, which is about the transition team uh

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of other things with the current president.

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Speaker 1: And also his audio only book, The Coming Storm. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's day with the Fifth Risk. So that turned

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Speaker 1: out to be a shockingly precedent depiction of all of

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Speaker 1: the unfilled jobs in this administration. And they were literally

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Speaker 1: thousands of political appointees and very senior folks that just

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Speaker 1: never ever got appointed to a position, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of shocking because that's how you control the government, that's

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Speaker 1: how you affect your policies. First of all, it was

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Speaker 1: incredibly precedent depiction. But second, how did you ever find

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Speaker 1: this story? People really were not all that plugged into

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Speaker 1: what was going on here. You know, It's funny. It

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Speaker 1: seemed to me kind of low hanging fruit, but only

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Speaker 1: to me. This is so, this is what happened. I

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Speaker 1: woke up, uh from surgery I had. I had hip

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Speaker 1: surgery the day before Trump walked into the White House. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the day before therefore he actually became president. And Um,

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Speaker 1: I was laying in bed, we all drugged up, and

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Speaker 1: and I hadn't yet remember. I had on my mind

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Speaker 1: what the book I just finished, which was The Undoing Project,

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Speaker 1: which is all about the way people misperceived risk. And

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Speaker 1: I'd always seen Trump as a watching his campaign, it

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Speaker 1: just felt like he was a risk distorting machine. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I was anyway, I had this thought this and

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Speaker 1: and it was watching part of the White House. I thought,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how he's gonna kill me. How's he

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Speaker 1: gonna kill me? He's gonna do something. He's gonna do

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Speaker 1: something that's gonna kill me. It was like an existential dread. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, how do I get this across to

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Speaker 1: people that what they just put in there is unbelievably risky?

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Speaker 1: And uh, And my first thought, this is this is

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Speaker 1: relevant right now. Was and I've got some way to

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Speaker 1: actually doing it, was to creating in Times Square something

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Speaker 1: I wanted to call the Trump death Clock. And it

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Speaker 1: was gonna just scroll the number of deaths caused by

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's mismanagement of the federal government. So I'm already

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Speaker 1: framing in my head, the federal government is this management

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Speaker 1: of manager of existential risks. Um that seemed kind of obvious.

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Speaker 1: But but the death clock, you know, I got it.

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Speaker 1: I found someone who was willing to pay for it.

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't find an intellectually respectable way to get

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Speaker 1: to determine the death count, right. It was gonna look

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Speaker 1: like the debt clock and it but and it was

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Speaker 1: gonna like scroll and you have pictures of people who

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Speaker 1: had died who shouldn't have died and all the rest. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's actually gone up. I don't know if you've noticed it,

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Speaker 1: but two days ago someone put up something called the

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Speaker 1: Trump Death clock in Times Square. Uh, and it's and

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Speaker 1: it's just measuring the number of people who have died

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Speaker 1: from the coronavirus, who wouldn't have who wouldn't have died

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Speaker 1: if we had different policies in place. Anyway, that's it's funny.

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Speaker 1: It's funny you bring that up because I have not

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Speaker 1: been in Manhattan in sixty four days since we've been

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Speaker 1: sheltering in place. And my version of the death clock

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Speaker 1: is this wonderful infographic from a website called Information is Beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I'll send you the link, and they it's global and

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Speaker 1: there are a couple of great info sources, but they

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Speaker 1: every day you get the updated version of number of

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Speaker 1: new infections, number of deaths not and it's state by state,

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Speaker 1: country by country, and it's both incredible and depressing at

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Speaker 1: the same time. Because this really I'm I'm coming to

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Speaker 1: that question, but we might as well jump to it. Um,

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Speaker 1: how much of an avoidable error? Are are a hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand American deaths? A lot of it? So here's to

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Speaker 1: get back because to the fifth risk picks up at

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Speaker 1: the beginning of this story, right, I mean the Trump

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Speaker 1: there's there's meant to be a transition where which is

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Speaker 1: an exchange of knowledge and expertise, re election likes put together.

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Speaker 1: And you write that of all people, New Jersey Governor

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Speaker 1: Chris Christie is leading Donald Trump's transition team exactly, and

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Speaker 1: and by law, you know they've got to have this thing,

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Speaker 1: and the and the federal government subsidizes it, and the

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Speaker 1: Obama administrations required to do it. And Obama knows the

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Speaker 1: value of it because Bush did such a great job

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Speaker 1: apparently handling the government. And there was just lots of stuff.

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Speaker 1: They are in the middle of a financial crisis, a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff that needed to go from one group

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Speaker 1: to the other. As as naturally hostile as they might

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Speaker 1: have been to each other, there was a general recognition that,

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Speaker 1: like ninety percent of the federal government is not not

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Speaker 1: an ideological matter. It's a problem solving and and problem

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Speaker 1: dealing with situation. And you've got these people who do

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Speaker 1: who do it like civil servants, but it's run by

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Speaker 1: political appointees. It's run by four thousand people you're putting

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Speaker 1: in charge of these this operation. And and so Trump has,

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Speaker 1: through Chris Christie, a team of hundreds and hundreds of

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Speaker 1: people who are supposed to go into the federal government

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Speaker 1: the day the day after the election and learn how

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Speaker 1: the nuclear arsenals works, or learn you know. One of

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Speaker 1: the things on the top of this was how they

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Speaker 1: old a bowl of uh crisis was epidemic, was was

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Speaker 1: dealt with um and Trump fires every body, everybody. Christie, Wait,

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Speaker 1: they're supposed to start November nine, Yeah, before January twenty.

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Speaker 1: If they get like a four month head start, two

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Speaker 1: months start, yeah, and uh. And Crump had always been

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Speaker 1: dismissive of this. He told Christie at some point when

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Speaker 1: Christie is trying to explain him how important this was

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Speaker 1: that Chris, you and I can take two hours away

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Speaker 1: from the victory party and learned everything we need to

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Speaker 1: know about the federal government. Uh. He had He had

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Speaker 1: no interest at all. And he's the guy who's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be running it. So when things happened, the big

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Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing they did. They missed the

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Speaker 1: apropos of our current crisis. They missed um, the lessons

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Speaker 1: learned from not just to Bola, but the flu um,

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Speaker 1: the flu potential pandemic um. I can't remember burger swine,

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Speaker 1: I get a mixed it was the previous coronavirus, it

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Speaker 1: was it wasn't it was the it was influenza, and

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Speaker 1: it was, but wasn't. No one of them, so many

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. It's it's either the bird or the swine flu.

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Speaker 1: I get one of them have been in the Bush administration.

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Speaker 1: And one happened in the Obama administration, and it's a

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Speaker 1: it's it actually is very telling that I can't remember

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Speaker 1: which is which because it never happened. You know, it

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Speaker 1: was dealt with, but it was dealt with not perfectly

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Speaker 1: in either case, but in each case they learned and

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Speaker 1: it got better and better. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: they learned in the Obama administration is it is absolutely

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Speaker 1: critical that there be someone in the White House who

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Speaker 1: is coordinating the entire federal response because you've got all

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Speaker 1: these different agencies doing all these different things, and the agencies,

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Speaker 1: you know, compete with each other their power grabs that

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Speaker 1: you need to check them. So you need to know

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Speaker 1: if the Center for Disease Control says, oh, we have

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Speaker 1: a good test, uh for the for the for the coronavirus,

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Speaker 1: you have someone there says show me, and and I

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Speaker 1: want to see it, and I want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that that we have you know, we we have um

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Speaker 1: fallibility built built into this. There's there's there are other

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Speaker 1: places we can go if this doesn't work. Trump fired

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Speaker 1: the people on the National Security Council who oversaw the

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Speaker 1: the federal government's response to pandemic and the threat of pandemic.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the several things he did that that

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Speaker 1: that um had a huge effect early on to in

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Speaker 1: our ability to respond to it. But as a result,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think what you've got to do is

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Speaker 1: compare our experience here with the experience of governments that

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Speaker 1: have been more competent, like South Korea or Germany or

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Speaker 1: you know, they've been most almost everybody. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: are what what percentage of the world's population are we

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Speaker 1: and what percentage of the world's infections are were like

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Speaker 1: like a quarter of the inflections and we're like five

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Speaker 1: of Yeah, I mean that's crazy, especially since it took

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Speaker 1: a little while to get here. UM. So I don't um,

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Speaker 1: it's it's been shocking. How shocking if you didn't know,

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Speaker 1: like if you didn't know how Trump had approached the

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Speaker 1: federal government, it's totally shocking how they how they responded.

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Speaker 1: But if you knew, like if you if you've done

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Speaker 1: the work I did to do the book, you know

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Speaker 1: you think, well, that's gonna happen, you know. I mean

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Speaker 1: that I don't know what. I don't know what the

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Speaker 1: crisis is going to be, but whenever it comes, we're

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Speaker 1: not gonna be ready for it. So I know the

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Speaker 1: immediate pushback that some people are gonna make is, Oh

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Speaker 1: that Michael Lewis lives in Berkeley. He's in California. He's

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Speaker 1: a lefty. But from everything I've read that you've written

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Speaker 1: about this, you're not talking politics and partisan policies. You're

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Speaker 1: talking organization and management. Am I getting that right? Yes?

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's just like, how do you do this intelligently? Um?

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Speaker 1: I mean, how partisan is a pandemic? It's crazy? And

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Speaker 1: let me you know, it's funny. I live in Berkeley.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually not that much of a lefty. I mean

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Speaker 1: I I I if the people in Berkeley knew my politics,

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Speaker 1: they run me out of I mean really, it's much

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Speaker 1: messier than that. I am not like this, Oh, identify

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Speaker 1: as a lefty nowhere near I'm not even tell you

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Speaker 1: who I voted for in my life. But it's I'm

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Speaker 1: all over the map in my political feelings. Uh so

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Speaker 1: that but yes, even if you label me a Berkeley lefty, um,

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Speaker 1: this Berkeley left he is asking like, why can't we

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Speaker 1: have a smart management of a pandemic instead of a

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Speaker 1: stupid one? And why? You know the amazing thing about

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Speaker 1: it to me is even now that he is refusing

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Speaker 1: to accept the responsibility from managing the problem that is

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Speaker 1: a it is a problem that naturally demands a centralized response,

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Speaker 1: a coordinate. It's like a war a court. You know,

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Speaker 1: you don't want California raising their army and Alabama raising

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Speaker 1: their army and deciding, you know, where the attack Japan

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Speaker 1: independently is in the world. You know, you you you,

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Speaker 1: you need to coordinate the enterprise. And it's even even

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Speaker 1: it's almost even more demanding of a centralized response than

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Speaker 1: a war, because everybody's behavior affects the outcome. That you know,

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Speaker 1: if if half the population says, all right, this is

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Speaker 1: no big deal. We're gonna go run around the streets

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Speaker 1: and infect each other, and the other half the population

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Speaker 1: shuts down the economy, you get the worst of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: And that's what's happening. And I have to ask about

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Speaker 1: the coming storm, which is sort of based on the

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Speaker 1: whole um weather n o A a part of fifth risk.

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Speaker 1: So it was so what it was. So what I've

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Speaker 1: always done is almost always done with the books, is

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Speaker 1: I've tricked them out in magazines beforehand, and not all

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Speaker 1: of them, not all of it, but pieces of it,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of tests, run them in in shorter form.

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Speaker 1: And the Coming Storm was the magazine version of the

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Speaker 1: Fifth Risk. It was a it was a chapter in

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Speaker 1: the and um it was a chapter about So I

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Speaker 1: was wandering around once I realized that Trump had not

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Speaker 1: got the briefings, and I could go get the briefings

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Speaker 1: for the first time and turn up in some poor

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Speaker 1: person's office who was wondering when someone was gonna show

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Speaker 1: up and have them explain to me how you manage

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Speaker 1: the nuclear arsenal, or or how you predict the weather.

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Speaker 1: And these things have not happened. Nobody's been told in

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration. It started. And this is why I

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Speaker 1: thought it was a low hanging fruit. I thought, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, what a story. You know, you can go anywhere.

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Speaker 1: There there the risks, they're being managed, your spectacular risks,

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Speaker 1: um the weather. So I was in this position writing

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Speaker 1: the book where do I Go? And I had on

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Speaker 1: my floor of my office that you're watching me in

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Speaker 1: there were manilla folders for every department of the government,

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Speaker 1: and each got fatter and fatter and fatter, and and

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Speaker 1: at some point one would make the argument to me

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Speaker 1: you really got to go there. And and I thought,

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Speaker 1: and the way I chose where to go was I

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Speaker 1: want to go places where people don't imagine there's a problem.

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Speaker 1: Like every it's gonna know there's a problem in the

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Speaker 1: Defense Department. If the Defense Department is not well runned

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Speaker 1: or or Treasury, people kind of get treasury um, but

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Speaker 1: they don't know what goes on in the Commerce Department.

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Speaker 1: And in the Commerce Department there's this thing called the

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Speaker 1: National Weather Service, among other things. The Commerce Department is

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Speaker 1: really what it really is is the department of data.

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Speaker 1: So much of the data that we use as a

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Speaker 1: society resides there in one way or another. And the

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Speaker 1: weather data, in climate data, is part of that story.

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Speaker 1: And so I went to go ask, like, what happens

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Speaker 1: if nobody gives a rats ass about this data? And

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Speaker 1: and and Wilbert Ross, who've been put in charge of

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Speaker 1: the Commerce Department as much as said, I don't give

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Speaker 1: a rats ass about the data. All I care about

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Speaker 1: his trade, which has nothing to do with the converment

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Speaker 1: wrong department. Uh So I the National Weather Service ends

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Speaker 1: up being a really interesting case study in Trump management,

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Speaker 1: because what happens when you don't it isn't the Trump

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Speaker 1: is some libertarian. I mean it's that he just that

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Speaker 1: he thinks the federal government shouldn't exist in some way.

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Speaker 1: He's not there in his head. He gets there when

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Speaker 1: it's convenient. He'll say it because then he doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to manage it, like if it shouldn't be doing things

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Speaker 1: like managing a pandemic, then it's not his fault. It's

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Speaker 1: not managing a pandemic. But but it's uh. But but

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Speaker 1: he has no particular He just doesn't care about it all.

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Speaker 1: He cares about himself. And so what happens when you

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Speaker 1: don't care about it? Who shows up to run it?

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Speaker 1: And when you don't care about it? And the only

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Speaker 1: rule you have for who you're gonna put in the

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Speaker 1: jobs is they have to have demonstrated total loyalty to

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Speaker 1: you and not said anything bad about you. Well, who

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Speaker 1: shows up are people who have got narrow interests in

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Speaker 1: these things? Um And he put in charge of the

429
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: weather Service and or the operation that runs the weather service,

430
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: or tried to put in charge the guy who who

431
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: owned and ran ACU Weather. Now ACU Weather has been

432
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: a hell bent for twenty five years, essentially making it

433
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: extremely difficult for the National Weather Service to communicate weather

434
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: forecast the American public because it gets in the way

435
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 1: of ACCU Weather's profits. That's how accuate what ACU weather does.

436
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: And and once you do that, I mean, this is

437
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: a this is once you all of a sudden say

438
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: all right, um, yes, yeah. Everybody in that Weather Service

439
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: knew this was an existential threat to the Weather Service.

440
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,959
Speaker 1: And the Weather Service is in itself a wonderful story

441
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: that you know, you go back forty years, not even

442
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: forty years, the three day forecast wasn't any good, uh,

443
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 1: you know, much less the ten day forecast. The progress

444
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: has been made in weather prediction. It's like one of

445
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: those great, very slow moving stories like I don't know,

446
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: I grew up in New Orleans. When I was growing

447
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: up in New Orleans, the way you found out whether

448
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: the hurricane was about it as you went outside, you know,

449
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: yeah this you know it was the frisbee still still

450
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: in the yard when you throw it. Um. But but

451
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: you know, and now you can evacuate entire cities and

452
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: you have a really good sense of where it's going,

453
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: and all that Weather Service achievement. Uh, And there's there's

454
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: a lot left to do. So let me just stop you.

455
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: There is said, because there's a part of the book

456
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 1: that you just said something that triggered me. So you said,

457
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go meet with these various people and get

458
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: the briefings that the incoming Trump administration didn't get. Can

459
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: anybody say, hey, I want to learn how to dispose

460
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: of spent nuclear fuel rods or how do we maintain

461
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: the safety of our nuclear weaponry? You can't just walk

462
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: into d O E and get that briefing. How did

463
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 1: you arrange that? Because I would imagine a lot of

464
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: that stuff is pretty classified. Well there's stuff people had

465
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: to tiptoe around um, but but I got to For example,

466
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: the guy who had just walked out of the Department

467
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: Energy and had been he was a Wall Street guy

468
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: named John McWilliams. Uh worked at Goldman Um. It was

469
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: a very successful private equity investor, has made his fortune

470
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: and wanted to kind of give something back, and he

471
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: he was He was asked by the the Obama's Secretary

472
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: of Energy, Earnest Monies Too, to come in and evaluate

473
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: the risks inside of the Department Energy, and he became

474
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: the chief risk officer. So all this stuff classified and

475
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: unclassified ended up kind of percolating up to him and

476
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: he so I could go see him, and I went

477
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: and sat down with him, and it was true. He

478
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: would have to say, I gotta stop right there in

479
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 1: this description of how we're dealing with the South Koreans

480
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: and the North Koreans and their missile program, because we

481
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: just hit classified. But but you can get a long

482
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: way before you got the classified. You didn't have to.

483
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: He but he as we were actually what I was

484
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: talking to, he said, you know, just assume the Chinese

485
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: are listening to this, because because I'm almost sure they've

486
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: listen to everything I've done since I've been here. Um,

487
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: it was amazing. He's sitting in his backyard in Long Island,

488
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: uh and and the Chinese are there. But he but

489
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: he but he could walk me through if not, if

490
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 1: not in the most granular detail where we got two

491
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: places where there was the issue of like is it classified,

492
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 1: But he could walking through broadly what this, what the

493
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,959
Speaker 1: problems were that he was most worried about. And in

494
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: a way that he and the thing was, I sat

495
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: there listening with my jaw on the ground, thinking, God,

496
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: I hope someone's they're dealing with this stuff. And he's

497
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: he's telling me, no, nobody's there dealing with this stuff.

498
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: And um, and not only that, nobody's talked to me

499
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: that all you'd have to do, all they have to

500
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: is call me up and I could tell you everything

501
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: I'm telling tell them everything I'm telling you, and and

502
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: and they the fact they didn't want to know. I

503
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: just couldn't get past that because it was not ideological.

504
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: It's not ideological. How you stopped the North Koreans from

505
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: from being able to deliver a missile to California. That's

506
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: not an ideological issue. Uh, really, it isn't. At least

507
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: it never used to be. Never it seemed to have

508
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: become one. Right, And so they're all these there. There

509
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: was all this knowledge that just seemed essential if you're

510
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: going to manage the enterprise. And the endifference to to

511
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: the knowledge was in a way, it was gold for me, right,

512
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: because it was it gave me a way to justify

513
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: my presence inside the federal government. And I never would

514
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: have thought if you'd ask me, you can write a

515
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: book bout the federal government? I mean, my god, no,

516
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's what a horrible subject. But Trump electrified

517
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: the material. All you had to do was totally ignore

518
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: the federal government to make it interest. You describe the

519
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: power of a coach to change a life and in

520
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: and in the second episode of the series, you say,

521
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: in this case mine, tell us how coach Fits changed

522
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: your life. Um. Yes, So my coach Fits was my

523
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: high school baseball coach. And he was when he arrived

524
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: at the Newman's School in New Orleans, Louisiana, he was

525
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: the most terrifying thing any of us had ever seen.

526
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: He was six ft four, he had been he had

527
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: been a catcher in the Oakland, a system, big time

528
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: college basketball and baseball player, and he was from the

529
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: Bobby Knights school of coaching. Uh but but he he

530
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: he but with with a twist. Unlike Bobby Knight. There

531
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: was never any doubt that he cared about you, that

532
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,479
Speaker 1: that he was coming from a place where he was

533
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: just trying to fix you and not just make you

534
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: a better baseball player, but like make you a better man.

535
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: And um and he's he when he when I collided

536
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: with him, I was just trouble. I was like I

537
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: was when I was thirteen years old, fourteen years old,

538
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,959
Speaker 1: I guess I was thirteen, and he was, um, you know,

539
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: my idea of of of a day of hard work

540
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: was going out on a ripping hood or him and

541
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: and keep covers off cars. I mean, I was like

542
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,719
Speaker 1: a little vandal. I didn't go to I didn't care

543
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: about school. I was kind of like indifferent to the

544
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: world around me. And he just first he jolted me

545
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: with by scaring the hell out of me and sort

546
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: of like, this is a guy who I don't want

547
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: to displease. But second he sort of then he created

548
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: a series. The best way to put it is, he

549
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: created a series of dramas not just for me, but

550
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: for everybody who was he, whoever played for him. And

551
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: in these dramas, you were you were doomed to fail,

552
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: you were doomed to be incredibly uncomfortable. You were doomed

553
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: to experience real fear, but you were destined to overcome

554
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: it all. You were going to learn how to deal

555
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: with your fear, learn how to bounce back from failure,

556
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: learn how to be comfortable being uncomfortable, learn how to

557
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: compete in a really difficult situation. And there are lots

558
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: of little anecdotes and stories, but these dramas in the

559
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: end he starts. What he actually starts to do is

560
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: build new identities for kids. And the identity is I'm

561
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: someone I can win, i can fight, I'm not afraid.

562
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: You know that, I'm i can be a hero. And

563
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: and and he starts kids on a kind of a

564
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: new track how they think about themselves. Uh. And he

565
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: did it over and over and over and over and

566
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: the punchline all this And what got me interested in

567
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: telling the story in the first place was some years

568
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: ago I got a call from someone who played for

569
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,479
Speaker 1: him basketball for him, and they were raising the money

570
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: to rename the school gym from millions of dollars, and

571
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: the money was being thrown in this guy. The school

572
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: let him do it without a whole lot of help

573
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: from the school, but parents of former players and foreign

574
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: players were saying, man, this guy changed my life. This

575
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: this guy did all the hard, hard work and raising

576
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: my child. And at the same time, the very same time,

577
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: the parents of his then current players were trying to

578
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: get him fired because they thought he was too hard

579
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: on their kids. And I thought, this is a moment

580
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: the culture that that this a thing that I went

581
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: through that wasn't abusive, It was just really difficult um

582
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: that somehow kids aren't allowed to go through anymore, aren't

583
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: being allowed to go through anymore, And I think you're

584
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: gonna pay a big price for this. At the bottom

585
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: all I was this guy. I think I maintained to

586
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: this day, Uh that if I had never had this

587
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: experience with this coach, I never would have become a writer. Yeah.

588
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: I was astonished when you said that, because you seem

589
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: like such a natural writer. So coach fits takes you

590
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: from Michael Lewis the Hooligan two. I love the story

591
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: one out bottom of the ninth man, first and third

592
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: the best picture picture gets pulled and income second stringer

593
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: Mike Lewis tell us what the coach says to you

594
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: that seems like a lifetime turning point, that moment in

595
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: your baseball. Uh so this is what you know. They're

596
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: lots of other people in the podcast with me sent

597
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: telling a similar sort of story. It's sort of like

598
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: where he said, where how he uses the sport to

599
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: create to start to create a new identity. So I

600
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: just joined the team I was. I was thirteen. Uh

601
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: it was the summer team. I was the younger picture,

602
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: so it wasn't my turn to pitch. I was sitting

603
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: on the bench watching us play, and like, you know,

604
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: it was one of those games where you felt like

605
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: all the grown ups in New Orleans were in the

606
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: stands screaming and drinking and and and it got very intense,

607
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: and for complicated reasons, he had to pull the picture. Uh.

608
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: And it was the bottom of the last inning and

609
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: runners on first and third, one out, and it was

610
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,439
Speaker 1: just I was so over my head, you know, i'd

611
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: been I I just restarted my baseball career six months before.

612
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 1: I just learned a curveball. He comes and he grabs

613
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: me off the bench and he said and pulls me

614
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 1: out into the mount He says, he says, you know,

615
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: I'm kind of glad we're doing this because there's no

616
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: one I'd rather have in this situation. And you know,

617
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 1: in retrospect, it's funny. It At the time I thought

618
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: I believe him, you know, like he he thinks I

619
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: can do this, and and he kind of looks over

620
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: at the guy. He first he hands me the ball,

621
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: he says, shove this up their ass, and then he

622
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: looks over at the guy in the third base and

623
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 1: he goes and then pick his ass off and and

624
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: and and so, and it's exactly what happened. I picked

625
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: the guy off third base, I struck out the next guy.

626
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: We won. And afterwards he says, this is who you are.

627
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: This moment is who you are. It was so different

628
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: than anything I've ever been. But it was such a

629
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: good feeling coming from this. You know, it was like

630
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: God talking to you. Zeus was talking to you, and

631
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: he says, this is who you are. So all of

632
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: a sudden, you start to be this. You start to

633
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: tell yourself this story, this is who I am. And

634
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: to be this. But to be this person, I have

635
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: to be a different person. I have to work, I

636
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: have to care, I have to try, I have to suffer.

637
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: I have to be brave. You know. It's like one

638
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: thing after another. And so all those qualities started to

639
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: come and come out of him. It's almost like and

640
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: we are. I argue this in the podcast cast, the

641
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: really great coaches are giving you a piece of themselves,

642
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: and they're taking some little piece of their character and

643
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 1: they're putting it inside of you. And and like anybody

644
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: can call themselves a coach, but that the role is

645
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 1: a very funny roles. As I say, it's like a

646
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: rubber suit. It's our strengths and and expands to fit

647
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: the character of the person who's wearing it. And and um,

648
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: you know, the man makes the clothes. And and when

649
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: you have a character who is as powerful as that character,

650
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: you can have an enormous influence on a person, to

651
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: say the very least. So let's talk about a very

652
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: different coach. I am very late to the game of tennis.

653
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 1: I started in my I don't know, early fifties, so

654
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: I am not playing all that long. And one of

655
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: the few books I purchased that I found to be

656
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: of help is The Inner Game of Tennis. Tell us

657
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: a little bit about the author of that book, and

658
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: he's completely different approach to coaching than coach fits. So

659
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: this is the episode that follows the Coach Fish Jerald episode,

660
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,959
Speaker 1: which will be released next next week. Um. So there's

661
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: been this movement and coaching and I kind of wonder

662
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,959
Speaker 1: where to come from. And the movement has a couple

663
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: of aspects to it. One is, um, the thing that's

664
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: being a coach more than anything else is the state.

665
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: It's the state of mind in which you're doing whatever

666
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: you're doing. So it's sort of mental coaching. Uh. And

667
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: it's everywhere you see it. You see it in with

668
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 1: chief executives, you see with Wall Street traders, you see

669
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: it various forms of life coaching. And these people call

670
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: themselves performance coaches, and they're all over the economy where

671
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: the Tony Robin of America. Yes, but it's really the

672
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: Tim Galway of vacation of the It's the guy the

673
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: inner game of tennis is really the beginning of all this. Um.

674
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 1: I mean you talked to talk to some talked to

675
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: some big time coaches like Pete Carroll or Steve Kerr,

676
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: and they will tell you their inspiration is that book

677
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: and that guy, uh and and the eye and the idea, Yes,

678
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: and the idea is um your words, like, you can't

679
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: really manipulate players or the people you're trying to coach

680
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: as simply as you think you can just by telling

681
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: him to do things, just by criticism and praise, And

682
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: in fact, criticism and praise are both often counterproductive there

683
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: they create that what you're trying to do is get

684
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: the the player into a state of mind where they're

685
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: almost unseelf conscious in what they're doing and and to

686
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: focus or put in another way, to move their focus

687
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: onto things that are very helpful to focus on, and

688
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: away from things that aren't helpful. To focus on. Someone

689
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: who's going out to um to pitch in a in

690
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,399
Speaker 1: a in a in a pressure situation, the last thing

691
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 1: you want to be thinking is, oh, please God don't

692
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: let me walk him, or please God throw a strike.

693
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: What you want to be thinking is, um, push off

694
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: the rubber, you know, really push when you you're thinking

695
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: about physical things that actually control the outcome, not the

696
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: outcome itself. I can take a funny story. So Tim Goalaway,

697
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: who writes this book, he's it was just a tennis pro.

698
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 1: Like how many tennis pros in the world have started

699
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: a revolution? Uh, He's he's a he's a tennis pro

700
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: in the early seventies who starts teaching in this different way,

701
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: not telling people where to hold their racket, just showing

702
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: them strokes and saying just watch me and then just

703
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: do it. Uh. And and he his book is published

704
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: and he thinks it's a tennis book. It's like, ah,

705
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 1: you know, you know, it'll sell twenty thou copies. It

706
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: sells like ends up selling like two million copies. But

707
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: and people are grabbing it. Who aren't interested in tennis,

708
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: but teaching other things. He gets a call from the

709
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: Houston Philharmonic, and he knows nothing about music, like doesn't

710
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: even know the notes, never played anything. He's not a

711
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: musical guy. But he goes down to see these people.

712
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: And the guy who's the the who's the conductor of

713
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: the symphonies kind of skeptical and he kind of and

714
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: after they listen to go always talk about the end

715
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: of game of tennessee, is okay? Pick someone here to coach?

716
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: And he and and and and Go always says, any volunteers,

717
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: and he says. The tuba player raises his hand and

718
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 1: he goes like this is really bad, Like I don't

719
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: I don't even know where to end of the tuba

720
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 1: you blow on and and so the tuba player gets

721
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 1: up and Go always says to him, what's your what's your?

722
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: What worries you? Like, what's the problem? And the guy says,

723
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: sometimes the notes are the notes are not coming out

724
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: quite as full as as I like them too, And

725
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 1: I'm straining to hear it, and it's very hard to

726
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: hear it because you know the two but where they

727
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: come out so far away from my ear? And always says, well, like,

728
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 1: what do you what do you notice in your body

729
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: when things aren't working? And the guy says, oh, my

730
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: tongue gets dry and almost it starts to condoms, almost

731
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: get swollen. And so go always says, forget about the notes,

732
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: don't listen to the notes. He says, just focus on

733
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,439
Speaker 1: your tongue. Well, just keep the tongue moist. Don't worry

734
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 1: about anything but keeping the tongue moist. So the guy

735
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: you know always says. The guy picks up the tube

736
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: and goes boom boom, and he says, I couldn't tell

737
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: any difference. I didn't know I did, I could tell

738
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: whether it was good or bad. But the guy does this,

739
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: and the entire orchestra stands up and gives him a

740
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: standing ovation. He said, and that it was like focusing

741
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: on the right thing as opposed to the outcome outcome,

742
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 1: process over outcome. And there are lots of different ways

743
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: to say it, and there are lots of different ways

744
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: to teach it. But it creates a movement inside of coaching,

745
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: and and it creates an opportunity different kind of opportunity.

746
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: It means you don't need to know anything about the

747
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: thing you're coaching, you just need to know about states

748
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: of mind that lead to good performance. And so there's

749
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: a guy in that episode. He's twenty nine years old.

750
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 1: He is he is a direct descendant of Tim Galway

751
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 1: and he's coaching. You know, any given day you would

752
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: find in him with New York Giants football players, New

753
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: York Mets baseball players, New York City Firefighters, Goldman Sachs, traders,

754
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 1: my daughter, seventeen year old softball player. I hired him

755
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: just to see how that work out. But he that

756
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 1: he's able to move from one space to the next.

757
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: And you talk to the people who work with him,

758
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: and actually I saw it. The effects. The effects are

759
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: actually kind of great. Uh. That that you you just

760
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 1: gives people in a in a kind of a relaxed

761
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: frame of mind to perform underpression. My special guest this

762
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: week is Michael Lewis uh and he has been writing

763
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: almost a weekly series of columns at Bloomberg Opinion about

764
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: things that are going on with the coronavirus and and

765
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: they've been kind of fascinating. Like most Michael Lewis topics,

766
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: you find a corner of this that other people are

767
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: either overlooking or having dove is deeply into it, and

768
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: then you reveal something interesting. The first one you wrote no,

769
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: is gee, we really don't have a lot of data

770
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: about the effect of social distancing and what it means

771
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: for the spread of of the coronavirus. What made you

772
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: start doing these weekly calms, Well, it was the ineptitude

773
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 1: of the response, I think was the first thing. Also

774
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: the size of the problem, but it was I was

775
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 1: just struck that we live in this society that has

776
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: lad the world in exploring the importance of data. We

777
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: coined the phrase data scientist. We revolutionize sports by using

778
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: data and analytics in new and different ways. Every business

779
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 1: in America has has been swept up in this data revolution.

780
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: We faced this existential threat and we lack data because

781
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: we're not collecting enough of it. It's the most amazing thing.

782
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: I you know that the so the initial failure of

783
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 1: the of the Center for Disease Controls tests and then

784
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: the seeming lack of enthusiasm interest in the Trump administration

785
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: in in in rapidly figuring out that problem and testing

786
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: more um got me interested in the first place. And

787
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 1: then the question became like, I mean, I still think

788
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: this is an opportunity, and I still may try to

789
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,919
Speaker 1: do this with the pieces. I think you could take

790
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: some of the best like baseball stats geeks, the guys

791
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: who are in front offices now, guys who are running teams,

792
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: and throw throw them into this problem because like, where

793
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: do you what's the data you want? Right now? There's

794
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: a lot of data that really help us with this.

795
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 1: One is like one is data in in who's got

796
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: about how many people have the disease and how it

797
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: how it spreads. I mean that's this is this is knowable. Uh,

798
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: we don't know it, but it's knowable. You mentioned in

799
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 1: one of the columns that we haven't really explored why

800
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: churches and synagogues seemed to be focal points. Is it's

801
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: something about singing as opposed to working with a family

802
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: member who has it that you don't get yet A

803
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: church or synagogue seems to be a giant hotspot. Yes,

804
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 1: I mean the places where people are in each other's

805
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: presence and breathing heavily, uh, for a long periods of

806
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: time seems to be a big, big problem. Whereas you

807
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 1: don't really it's not doesn't. I mean, it's all anecdote, right,

808
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: This is just so tri it shouldn't be anecdote. I

809
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: don't get the sense that anybody's getting it by, you know,

810
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: from a jogger who's passing by, uh, or from a

811
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: surface of a table or I mean, I don't know

812
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: that's true. But we should know this already and we don't.

813
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question when when you go

814
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: shopping and or if you have food delivered from the supermarket,

815
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: are you wiping everything down with h either Clorox wipes

816
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: or something like that, or is it just get thrown

817
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: right into the fridge and freezer gets thrown right into

818
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: the fridge and freeze. Really yeah, but I but I

819
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: would not go to a restaurant right now if they no,

820
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: not no, no, it's gonna be. I don't know. I'll

821
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 1: go to a restaurant before there's a vaccine now, but

822
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: if there's a tree eatment, but not that, I'm going

823
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: to restaurant this have you? Have you been following this

824
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: about the Llama antibodies much smaller than human anybody's that

825
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: seem to a lock onto the spike projections of the

826
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: outer part of the coronavirus. I think Fiser is testing

827
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: that with their German partner. And the downside is you

828
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: get a very long neck and you start spitting and everything.

829
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: But other wise, but you won't get the coronavirus. That's

830
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: that's a fair trade off. Yeah, totally fair. Uh So

831
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: there are so the data. You asked me why they

832
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: got interested. I got interested because it seemed like we

833
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: figured out how to value baseball players, but we haven't

834
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: figured out how to measure, how to how to how

835
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: the coronavirus works, and we and there's there's social data,

836
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: like the movement of people. It's being collected, it's being analyzed,

837
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: it's just but I I get the sense it's being

838
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: done in the kind of very crude ways that say,

839
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: baseball stats were looked at in the early seventies, and

840
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: I think I think there's just like So that's one

841
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: threat of the columns is I'm very interested in the

842
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 1: whole data story. So before we leave data, the Google

843
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: Apple project to trace people who are moving about through

844
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,919
Speaker 1: their mobile phones. That seems to be pretty detailed data set,

845
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: although we don't really know of that data, who has it.

846
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: We could just tell how much people are moving around

847
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 1: the country. So all I have actually written about this yet,

848
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: But but there's also the Facebook data that's being essentially

849
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 1: laundered through epidemiology departments at universities. So the Facebook, these

850
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: companies can't give their data to the government's privacy issues,

851
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 1: but they can give it to academics who can anonymize

852
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: it and and give it in a different package to

853
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: policy makers. And I do know that they've been able

854
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 1: to determine that that just increase increases in human movement.

855
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: I mean, this is kind of mind blowing, but increases

856
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: in human movement. So so let's say Gavin Newsom in

857
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: California says, Okay, it's okay to go to the beach,

858
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden you see an up

859
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: tick in actually how many how many yards people are

860
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 1: moving every day? Um, there's a direct correlation between that

861
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: and deaths from coronavirus. Yes, a couple of weeks later,

862
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: they've already figured that out. And and if they think

863
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: about how many steps there are in there, you know,

864
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: you can imagine a world where everybody's moving around a

865
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: lot more, but they're just in their cars and they

866
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: never get out of their cars, and they would have

867
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,280
Speaker 1: no effect at all. But actually, movement is a pretty

868
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: good proxy for spread of disease. Uh And and so

869
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: that data is gonna be usable if they get their

870
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: minds around it in all kinds of interesting ways, they'll

871
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: be able to see the effect of the policy on

872
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: movement and you know, the effective movement on the spread

873
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 1: of the disease. Um. So that I think we're headed

874
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: in a direction where data is is going to be

875
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: our solution short of a vaccine or treatment that the

876
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: data offers the most hope. What do you think about

877
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: these anti lockdown protests that we've seen in places like

878
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: Wisconsin and Michigan. Um, I think they're horrible. Uh. I mean,

879
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: it's sort of like if you it's not just yourself

880
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: you're affecting when you wander, when you when you decide

881
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: to get together with lots of other people, you're making

882
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 1: it more likely I get this thing and and um.

883
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: But although a lot of them have gotten it is

884
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: so from what we've read since those events, it's symptomatic

885
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 1: of a bigger problem. And this circles back to the podcast.

886
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: We are we are an uncoached team right now. We're

887
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: a team. We're a team. We're a team where everybody

888
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: wants the ball to shoot. We're a team where that

889
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: does not playing together. It's really it's it's it's and

890
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 1: it's a moment where we really need to act as

891
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: a team that play and and play together. So we

892
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: we need to have a strategy and everybody, everybody buy

893
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 1: into the strategy. That is going to be the title

894
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: of this We are an uncoached team. If somebody is

895
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: to write a book about this era, and I have

896
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,879
Speaker 1: to imagine we're gonna see dozens of them. Um who

897
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 1: should write that? Is that a Michael Lewis book? Or

898
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: is that somebody else's book. I think I have an idea,

899
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: but I'm not. I'm not ready to talk about it.

900
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear that, because anytime you get a

901
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: an idea, other interesting things come about. All right, So

902
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: season one was referee, Season two is coaching. What is

903
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: season three going to be about? I don't want to

904
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: say yet because because I'm not quite sure whether I'm

905
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,399
Speaker 1: going to keep it in the arena or leave the arena, right,

906
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 1: But if you do seven, you're gonna keep The original

907
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: concept was everything sports related within that everything It's sort

908
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: of like the roles are all roles you find inside

909
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: of a stadium, inside of inside of an arena of ambition.

910
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 1: But but it may, I may I may break that

911
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 1: rule and just and and it just may be. You know,

912
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 1: there may be other roles that I just i't want

913
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: to explore. I have not figured out what the third

914
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: season is yet. And um, I have to ask about

915
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: the book Coach. You wrote about Coach Fit. That's a

916
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 1: deeply personal book. You reference yourself in Liars Poker, But

917
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: I don't think I've read anything of yours that looks

918
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: as deeply personal as as Coach appears to be. Well,

919
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: and the podcast, so that this is right, there's nothing.

920
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever written anything quite like that,

921
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,320
Speaker 1: just because um, I'm generally not my material this Usually

922
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: it's generally something else. But this was just an odd

923
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: moment where I was useful. Let's talk about podcasts and

924
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: streaming video. What are you watching during lockdown and what

925
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 1: are you listening to? I have been working so hard

926
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: on the podcast that I've been watching very little. But

927
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: the one thing I have been watching is Fouda. Uh.

928
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 1: It was so stressful. It's it is stressful, but it's

929
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: unbelievably good. Great. Uh. So Fauda is the only thing

930
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: I've been watching regularly. In fact, I think I learned

931
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: in one of your columns. I don't remember if this

932
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,760
Speaker 1: was you were somebody else, that Fouda was originally written

933
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: for an Israeli audience, and it's watched throughout the Arab world,

934
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: which is sort of surprising when you consider the subject

935
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: is Israeli intelligence officers going after terrorists. It's the Narcos

936
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 1: story all over again. Narcos. Narcos was written for an

937
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: American audience, and it's all over the South, all over

938
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 1: Latin in South America. So I think I asked you

939
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: this last time, and I don't recall much of an answer.

940
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: I asked who who your mentors were? And I don't

941
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 1: remember you saying coach fits. But now I have to

942
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: re ask the question intense, who were your mentors? We'se

943
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: after you know you have you know they're meant your

944
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: mentors at different stages of your life. Right, He's probably

945
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: the most important, certainly the most important, because he caught

946
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: me at that stage. My father has always been a

947
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: mentor mentor to me and still is um the uh.

948
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: Tom Wolfe was a mentor to me when I very

949
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: early early stages of my writing career. UM, my editor

950
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: star Lawrence at at Norton has been a really important

951
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: mentor to me. Uh, those are the I would say

952
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 1: those are the main ones. That's a good list, UM,

953
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: favorite books. What are some of your old time favorite books?

954
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: And what are you reading now? If anything? I just

955
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: started in on you on Hillary Mantell's UM trilogy. Wolf

956
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: Hall was the first novel and I never got around

957
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: to it, and so I've just started to read that. Um.

958
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 1: I just finished the single best pandemic novel. It's called

959
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,359
Speaker 1: The Gentleman in Moscow by Amer Tolls, and it's it's

960
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,399
Speaker 1: the it's the novel to read in the pandemic because

961
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 1: it's about a Russian aristocrat who's locked up inside of

962
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: a hotel for fifty years. He can't leave, he can't leave,

963
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: and it's this it's this wonderful exploration of of a

964
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: of a mind adapting to a smaller space. Um. Anyway,

965
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: so that I love that book. Um, I'm reading novels

966
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: that I'm not really I haven't been reading any nonfiction.

967
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 1: Give us a third one. Well, I can't read more

968
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: than one a time. So the the the I'll give you,

969
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you one. Um. Uh, I'll give you

970
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 1: one that I read a while ago. But it's sort

971
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: of like it should have been. It's it should have

972
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: occupied the place in the American curriculum and Catcher in

973
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: the Ride does. It's called Red Sky at Morning and

974
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 1: uh um, pick that up and you won't be You'll

975
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 1: you'll be happy. Fantastic And and our final two questions,

976
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,399
Speaker 1: what advice would you give a recent college graduate who

977
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: was thinking about writing as a career. It's really simple,

978
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: and that is, make sure that you actually want to

979
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: write rather than be a writer. Uh They are always

980
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: people who want to be writers, but they actually don't

981
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:02,359
Speaker 1: want to write. And if you don't actually love it,

982
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be good at it. It's gonna be miserable.

983
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 1: And you can spend all your life posing and pretending

984
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 1: to have written, and it's just it's just it's a horrible,

985
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 1: horrible path. And it's something about the because nobody can

986
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 1: you can nobody can really call you on it. Uh

987
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: for a long time. You can spend your whole life

988
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: pretending to be a writer without actually writing. So uh

989
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: so just right, you know, And then the second part

990
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: that is what you write about, right, because then when

991
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: you come out of college is usually don't have that

992
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: much in the way of material. Go do stuff. It's

993
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: just interesting because maybe you can write about that. So

994
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: don't just be a writer right right and be something

995
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: else right and then and the two will go to

996
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: eventually the two will find each other. And our final question,

997
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: what do you know about the world of writing and

998
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: investing and risk today that you wish you knew thirty

999
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:55,879
Speaker 1: years or so when you ago when you were first

1000
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: getting started. So, when I was first getting started at Solomon,

1001
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 1: oh those other when I was first getting started as

1002
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 1: a writer. Well, I love the story about you, you know,

1003
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: writing it Sally and having them call you into the

1004
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: office and you had someone figured out was it chevy

1005
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: Chase's dad figured out that I was writing at her

1006
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,720
Speaker 1: a pseudonym, and chevy Chase's dad was an editor Simon

1007
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: and Schuster. He's want to put in my head that

1008
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,959
Speaker 1: I could write a book. So I'm so at that era.

1009
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 1: What do you what do you know today? You wish

1010
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: you knew back then about the writing process? I don't

1011
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 1: think I would you know. I like the way I

1012
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 1: I learned about the writing process. I wouldn't I wouldn't

1013
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: want to put a lot of stuff in my head

1014
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 1: when I was starting out, that I didn't have to

1015
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: sort of earn the knowledge, you know. I think I

1016
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,720
Speaker 1: was blessed that I didn't have any writers in my life,

1017
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:47,840
Speaker 1: that I didn't know any writers, that I didn't know

1018
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:49,919
Speaker 1: anybody knew any writers, that I was sort of making

1019
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 1: it up as I went along. I would hate to

1020
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: have gone at it in a more knowing way. I

1021
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 1: made a lot of dumb mistakes, but I like those

1022
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 1: mistakes like I don't I don't rewind the tape and say, oh,

1023
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: I wish I had known that it would have been worse.

1024
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 1: Anything I would have known would have made me works.

1025
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: That was my conversation with Michael lewis always a delight.

1026
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 1: We decided to release this as a special bonus podcast

1027
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: for Memorial Day weekend. I hope you found it interesting.

1028
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: Um all the usual things apply. If you enjoy this conversation, well,

1029
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: be sure to look up or Down an Inch on

1030
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: Apple iTunes and you can see any of the other

1031
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: three D plus conversations we've had since we began recording these,

1032
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: or check out your favorite podcast source Spotify, Google Overcast, Stitcher,

1033
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: wherever find our podcasts are sold. We love your comments,

1034
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: feedback and suggestions right to us at m I Be

1035
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: podcast at Bloomberg dot net. You can check out my

1036
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: weekly column on Bloomberg dot com slash Opinion, Follow me

1037
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Rid Halts. Sign up for our daily

1038
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: reads at Rid hal dot com. I would be remiss

1039
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 1: if I did not thank the cracked staff that puts

1040
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: these conversations together each week. Michael Boyle is my producer

1041
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: slash booker. Charlie Volmer is our audio engineer. Michael Batnick

1042
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: is my head of research. A taker Val Brunn is

1043
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: our project manager. I'm Barry Retults. You've been listening to

1044
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 1: Master's in Business on Bloomberg Radio