Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with text Stuff from dot Com.
Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to Text Stuff. I'm Jonathan Strickland
Speaker 1: and I'm joined once again by my esteemed colleague Scott Benjamin. Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you very much. I appreciate he've asked me back
Speaker 1: a few times. I know I keep doing it because
Speaker 1: you keep saying yes. I appreciate the invites. This is
Speaker 1: always a fun one to do, and it's uh, it's great,
Speaker 1: you know. I always like to have him on. Usually
Speaker 1: we have Scott on to talk about things that have
Speaker 1: to do with cars, because that's the world that's Scots
Speaker 1: quite familiar with. He's and I mean, I don't even
Speaker 1: know how many episodes Car Stuff is up to now,
Speaker 1: but it's got to be in the hundreds and hundreds.
Speaker 1: It's like six fifty or so. Yeah, So you guys
Speaker 1: are you know, you've been around for a while and
Speaker 1: you've talked a lot about cars. But this time I
Speaker 1: thought we'd talked about something a little different. We're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about E Mike's which, as you mentioned before we
Speaker 1: started recording. Uh, the E stands for the sound you
Speaker 1: make when you're writing it. That's if you're going downhill,
Speaker 1: really fast. I guess I often follow that up with
Speaker 1: a series of other sounds, some of which make words
Speaker 1: that I can't say on this podcast. But we were
Speaker 1: talking about electric bicycles, various types of electric bicycles and
Speaker 1: kind of some of their counterparts that are similar to them.
Speaker 1: And you might have seen stuff about e bikes recently. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's been a couple of products that have been coming
Speaker 1: out of the prototype stage that have made it something
Speaker 1: that is more accessible to the general public. Before, I
Speaker 1: would say there were it was like a very niche audience,
Speaker 1: like bicycle enthusiasts and uh, some do it yourselfers who
Speaker 1: really were into this. But now we're actually seeing it
Speaker 1: where people who are living in maybe city environments can
Speaker 1: get hold of these, especially if they're trying to transition
Speaker 1: from car ownership to something else. I mean, you've probably
Speaker 1: heard the story about millennials not flocking to car ownership
Speaker 1: the way previous generations have. In fact, we talked about
Speaker 1: that a couple of times in previous episodes. So bicycles
Speaker 1: are becoming more and more important in the United States.
Speaker 1: They've been important in other parts of the world for ages,
Speaker 1: and electric bikes are becoming a big part of that.
Speaker 1: But here's the interesting thing. A long way to go
Speaker 1: for this, But they're not a new idea, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: they're far from a new idea. In fact, this goes
Speaker 1: back oh what a hundred and twenty some years now,
Speaker 1: I say, what, Yeah, a long long time ago. So
Speaker 1: went back to uh, I want to say, it's in
Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds, right, right, Um, I think my
Speaker 1: notes say the mid to late eighteen nineties. But the
Speaker 1: first one that I've actually got an account for, you know,
Speaker 1: the actual the date that was given, it's right around
Speaker 1: and it had a double electric motor design. Now there
Speaker 1: may have been one prior to that, I'm not sure,
Speaker 1: but actually had two electric motors. And we've talked about
Speaker 1: the complexity of a two motor design earlier. Today it
Speaker 1: seems like it would be an impossible thing to do,
Speaker 1: really nearly impossible. At least, it would seem impractically. Oh
Speaker 1: that's it. Maybe not impossible, but impractical, that's a better
Speaker 1: way to say it. Because we talked about the pros
Speaker 1: and cons of different types and how they work and
Speaker 1: and the characteristics of each one, and what you would
Speaker 1: have to do to pair two of them together. To
Speaker 1: make them work in tandem. Yeah, what happens if you
Speaker 1: cut the power to one and you forget to cut
Speaker 1: the power to the other, and then next thing you know,
Speaker 1: you're doing flips. Well, I have a feeling in it
Speaker 1: wasn't quite as complex as we're making it out to be.
Speaker 1: It's probably a lot simpler. But then in uh In,
Speaker 1: just one year later, there was a drive belt design
Speaker 1: that came around, which is, yeah, it is kind of
Speaker 1: cool because that's different than what we're seeing today, which
Speaker 1: you might think you're seeing that today, but you're seeing
Speaker 1: probably a version of a moped really or something like that,
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about the difference of that too. And
Speaker 1: then in this is one that I really wanted to
Speaker 1: talk about just for a second, there was a patent,
Speaker 1: you know, pulled for a frick in roller wheel design,
Speaker 1: which is really unusual, and this is one that we
Speaker 1: haven't seen maybe ever on a bicycle recently. Can I
Speaker 1: like a guess on what this is? Sure, because I
Speaker 1: I haven't read the patent, so why would guesses? This
Speaker 1: means that there would be an electric motor that would
Speaker 1: turn a small wheel that is actually right up against
Speaker 1: one of the primary wheels. In the bicycle, and the
Speaker 1: rotation of the small wheel is translated into the rotation
Speaker 1: of the larger wheel. That's exactly right. Now. It seems
Speaker 1: very inefficient, isn't it to do it that way? It
Speaker 1: was it was mounted, I guess, would be behind the
Speaker 1: rider's seat above the wheel, and it would it would
Speaker 1: the pressure was a downward force on the wheel, on
Speaker 1: the surface of the wheel where it would contact the road,
Speaker 1: and that translated to as you said, the you know,
Speaker 1: the drive the actual drive wheel, which to me, that
Speaker 1: would be not just inefficient because obviously the smaller wheel
Speaker 1: is gonna have to rotate many, many, many more times
Speaker 1: faster than the large wheel, right, but also it means
Speaker 1: adding more aar and tear on that particular wheel of
Speaker 1: your bike. You're exactly right, And it just seems like
Speaker 1: it seems like a difficult design to make work. But
Speaker 1: I just wanted to tell you that, you know, even
Speaker 1: prior to nine, people are really thinking about this. They're really,
Speaker 1: you know, considering the idea that an electric bike is
Speaker 1: something that is necessary to get around town. And quite honestly,
Speaker 1: you know, where did they have It's not like they
Speaker 1: were in a crowd of city at that point, probably
Speaker 1: it's not likely. Uh they might have been, but um
Speaker 1: it would it would be more for you know, like
Speaker 1: a country ride or something like that that they would
Speaker 1: use it for, right, I would imagine. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: unless you're talking about you know, your your when you
Speaker 1: see the rise of the city's really because the rise
Speaker 1: of the automobile. You see the rise of automobile, which
Speaker 1: gave rise to two cities getting larger and larger and
Speaker 1: more sprawl. Perhaps you could argue that the bike would
Speaker 1: have been useful for someone who cannot afford a full
Speaker 1: automobile but still needs to make a commute. But we
Speaker 1: often here in the United States in particular, we have
Speaker 1: often thought about bicycles as recreational devices. Right, this is
Speaker 1: the thing that we use. You want to go out
Speaker 1: and get some exercise, you want the fresh air, you
Speaker 1: want a nice relaxing ride. And uh, in fact, when
Speaker 1: we were first talking about doing this topic, it was
Speaker 1: only when we started talking about the possibility of using
Speaker 1: a bike in instead of a car or taking public
Speaker 1: transportation in order to get around regularly. That's something like
Speaker 1: an electric bike really started to make sense because otherwise
Speaker 1: you kind of want that that exertion, that's part of
Speaker 1: the experience. Let me let me just for one second
Speaker 1: go back and kind of defend my my my country
Speaker 1: ride example, because the lay that I I picture UM
Speaker 1: cities right around the turn of the century, you know,
Speaker 1: the turn of the nineteenth century, is that they were
Speaker 1: they were crowded with cars which were relatively new at
Speaker 1: the time, brand new at the time, UM, carriages, lots
Speaker 1: of horses, lots of people walking. But I don't necessarily
Speaker 1: think of seeing a lot of a lot of bicycles
Speaker 1: in city environments. That's from from photos of that day,
Speaker 1: of that era or depictions of it, you know, whether
Speaker 1: it be wrongs or whatever. You don't see a lot
Speaker 1: of bicycle riders. However, today in crowded cities, you do
Speaker 1: see a lot of bicycle riders. I mean that's that
Speaker 1: and especially in places like China where it's extremely crowded
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe not everybody can afford a motorcycle,
Speaker 1: right or or a big scooter um or definitely not
Speaker 1: a car. Bicycle is a good option, but as you said, UM,
Speaker 1: they're not necessarily in it for you know, exercise or
Speaker 1: to get out and you know, to get the get
Speaker 1: the heart pumping or whatever, especially in places where pollution
Speaker 1: might be so bad that you don't necessarily want to
Speaker 1: be breathing. R Now, this is just like an inexpensive
Speaker 1: method of transportation, way to commute and uh and also
Speaker 1: you know, to take up as little space as possible
Speaker 1: when you're not using that thing, right, Yeah, So now
Speaker 1: we're starting to see this grow in popularity here in
Speaker 1: the United States, like I said, in some parts of
Speaker 1: the world, and in parts of Europe. That's all. It's
Speaker 1: been popular for years and in fact, electric bikes have
Speaker 1: been around for quite some time in in both Europe
Speaker 1: and the United States as well as Asia. But these
Speaker 1: are uh, you know, we've seen a lot of development
Speaker 1: over the last i'd say a couple of decades. We've
Speaker 1: seen really some some interesting development to the point where
Speaker 1: it's become uh, something that the average consumer can can
Speaker 1: be aware of, as opposed to you know, the bike enthusiasts.
Speaker 1: Part of that is battery technology. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I'm jumping ahead of you here, but but
Speaker 1: part of that is battery technology because lead acid batteries,
Speaker 1: that's the kind of battery that you typically find in
Speaker 1: an automobile, a typical one, not not one of the
Speaker 1: newer ones. But um, they're big, they're heavy, they're bulky.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's difficult to carry that kind
Speaker 1: of weight around on a bike. You're trying to remain
Speaker 1: as light as possible with this type of setup, as
Speaker 1: we'll talk about in a moment. But um, you know,
Speaker 1: with some of the newer battery technology, like lithium ion
Speaker 1: batteries or even you know, some of the nickel cadmium
Speaker 1: batteries from you know, or nickel metal hydride batteries, or
Speaker 1: or even the seal some of these, I guess, the
Speaker 1: sealed lead acid batteries. Some of them are small enough
Speaker 1: that couldn't you know, you could potentially use them. But
Speaker 1: the lead acid batteries tend to be a lot heavier
Speaker 1: than the batteries. Yeah. The other thing that uh, you know,
Speaker 1: those batteries have been a challenge, not just from a
Speaker 1: science perspective, but also safety obviously lithium ion in particular.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't you want to be really uh
Speaker 1: you don't you don't want to overheat your lithium ion batteries. Well,
Speaker 1: and it's not a great idea to also be biking
Speaker 1: around with a box of sulfuric acid. Yeah, that's that's
Speaker 1: what it is. Yeah, that's that can be a bit
Speaker 1: of a that could be a bit of a drag
Speaker 1: if things go wrong. But yeah, yeah, I mean, like
Speaker 1: I think of here in here, in Atlanta, for example,
Speaker 1: things can get pretty hot. So imagine that you have
Speaker 1: a really hot day and you're taking your electric bike
Speaker 1: for a ride, and you've got your battery or lithium
Speaker 1: ion battery, and you're you know, you have to hit
Speaker 1: dead Man's Hill, It's the craziest hill in Atlanta, which
Speaker 1: I just made up, and uh you, so you kicked
Speaker 1: the bike into full gear to try and help you
Speaker 1: as much as it can to get up there. I
Speaker 1: can imagine that lithium ion battery getting really kind of
Speaker 1: deteriorating rapidly due to we're operating at such a high temperature.
Speaker 1: The heat is the worst enemy of batteries. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know that they die often in cold weather, but
Speaker 1: heat is where the real damage occurs. And then you
Speaker 1: don't realize it until it's cold and all those chemical
Speaker 1: reactions are slowing down, and that's when you really feel
Speaker 1: that you feel the pain from you know, the damage
Speaker 1: that was done in the summer months. Now. Of course,
Speaker 1: the nice thing is that most of the systems we're
Speaker 1: talking about, in fact, all the ones I'm familiar with,
Speaker 1: have replaceable batteries. So worst case scenario as you swap
Speaker 1: out a dead battery for a new one, obviously you
Speaker 1: want to preserve the life of your batteries as long
Speaker 1: as possible for multiple reasons. Financial would be a big one,
Speaker 1: but also just you know, it's more environmentally friendly to
Speaker 1: go easy on your battery so that you don't have
Speaker 1: to have I don't have to worry about, well, how
Speaker 1: do I dispose of this thing now that potentially has
Speaker 1: toxic materials in it. But let's be honest, the financial
Speaker 1: reason is the big one. That's the big one. I mean,
Speaker 1: it is the big one. I mean. Another thing we
Speaker 1: need to point out is electric bikes can be pretty expensive.
Speaker 1: Even the conversion kits where you can turn your existing
Speaker 1: bike into electric bike, some of those can be some
Speaker 1: of those can dwarf the price of your original bike. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I've seen kids just conversion kits that that range anywhere
Speaker 1: from you know, I think it was about seven seventy
Speaker 1: five dollars up to two thousand dollars where you're not
Speaker 1: getting an entire bike, you're getting the kit to make
Speaker 1: your existing bike into an e bike. And and of
Speaker 1: course the two thousand dollar kit comes with everything you
Speaker 1: would ever want, all the sensors. The seven D and
Speaker 1: seventy five dollar kit doesn't even have a battery with it,
Speaker 1: and I think there's no controller. I mean, it's just
Speaker 1: it's it's a very basic, basic kit where you're gonna
Speaker 1: have to add parts to it in order to make
Speaker 1: that even work. So it can be expensive, but maybe
Speaker 1: maybe it's better just to buy a bike right from
Speaker 1: the manufacturer. Yeah, yeah, there there are choices, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: you can get a bike that is designed as an
Speaker 1: electric bike from the beginning, and it's got the systems
Speaker 1: all integrated into it already, so it's going to Those
Speaker 1: are gonna look the nicest. Obviously, they're to cost a lot.
Speaker 1: You're gonna cost a lot if you convert a bike, then,
Speaker 1: depending upon the conversion kit you have, if it's one
Speaker 1: of those where it's a real D I O Y
Speaker 1: kind of approach, it'll work, but it'll probably also look
Speaker 1: kind of weird because the bike that you have was
Speaker 1: not originally intended to be an electric bike. You had
Speaker 1: to add all these different components on it. You have
Speaker 1: to put a battery pack somewhere on that thing, and
Speaker 1: sometimes that means that you have a big bulky section
Speaker 1: of the middle of the bike. But there are other
Speaker 1: types of electric bike converter kits as well that um
Speaker 1: incorporate all the elements into the hub of either the
Speaker 1: front wheel or the rear wheel. Those are kind of cool. Now,
Speaker 1: it does mean that the hub of that tire is
Speaker 1: going to look enormous compared to a normal bicycle tire.
Speaker 1: But but all the other elements are hidden away, right.
Speaker 1: You don't have, uh, you know, and there're only a
Speaker 1: couple of examples of this, but you don't have like
Speaker 1: a big external battery pack that's hanging off one of
Speaker 1: the bars of your bicycle unless unless you go back
Speaker 1: to one of those kids like we talked about. You
Speaker 1: know that you do have a big canvas bag that
Speaker 1: has a battery attached to it, and that's a speed
Speaker 1: controller and all the other electronics to go along with this.
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean that stuff is gonna be
Speaker 1: zip tied to the frame of your bike. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's not it's going to look like it's a kid
Speaker 1: that you added onto your bike. It's not going to
Speaker 1: be as as buttoned up as the as the bike
Speaker 1: that would come from the manufacturer. Look because they you know,
Speaker 1: they drill holes in the frame and they feed the
Speaker 1: wire through there and it only exits where it needs to.
Speaker 1: It's very uh, it's very minimally obtrusive, I guess on
Speaker 1: the on the design of the bike. Yeah, as opposed
Speaker 1: to have zip ties every couple of inches, everything in place,
Speaker 1: and there's still kind of is that element of these
Speaker 1: even even with the manufacturer built ones, you know, the
Speaker 1: ones that come from the factory, you know where I
Speaker 1: don't know how many they build a day, maybe, you know,
Speaker 1: it depends on the place, I guess, but it would
Speaker 1: I would think it's very few because these are hand
Speaker 1: assembled of course. Um, but yeah, they're they're pretty well
Speaker 1: buttoned up, but they still have a little bit of
Speaker 1: that you know, uh, a little bit of that look
Speaker 1: like it was kind of made it a workbench a
Speaker 1: little bit, but in a good way, like of in
Speaker 1: that that you know, again like that d I Y
Speaker 1: sort of approach. And they're getting better and better. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so I guess it's good to talk about, you know,
Speaker 1: the different types of electric bikes as well as to
Speaker 1: compare them against other powered bicycles. So the powered bicycle
Speaker 1: I always thought of when I was growing up, it
Speaker 1: was not electric at all. It was it was gas powered.
Speaker 1: The motorized bicycle, the moped moped. Yeah, so you've got
Speaker 1: the motorized and pedal PD the moped or velociped. Some
Speaker 1: people say that's from the old term for bicycle velocopied,
Speaker 1: which dates to even earlier in the uh you know,
Speaker 1: the the nineteenth century. Uh that was my favorite arcade
Speaker 1: game philosophy. Yeah, where you had to, you know, to
Speaker 1: shoot the little Penny Farthings as they came down the screen. Um. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The the moped is similar in many ways to electric bicycles,
Speaker 1: except of course it's not running on electricity. It's got
Speaker 1: an actual motor engine and I should sea tiny gasoline engine. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. And that's what I tend to think of
Speaker 1: two when I think of of a a pedal assisted
Speaker 1: powered vehicle and I think of that, that's that's the
Speaker 1: one I go to. Is like that old moped design
Speaker 1: where you see you would see somebody pedaling like crazy
Speaker 1: to either get it moving or more typically, you would
Speaker 1: just see the pedals, you know, remaining where they are.
Speaker 1: People would have their feet on the pedals, but it
Speaker 1: would be all you know, gasoline power that they're using.
Speaker 1: They're using just the engine to propel themselves forward. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they've got a throttle control, and the throttle control provides
Speaker 1: the power which drives the drive train and you don't
Speaker 1: have to do any pedaling at all to keep it going.
Speaker 1: It was very rare to see somebody actually pedaling a
Speaker 1: moped to the point now where the term moped, by
Speaker 1: at least some people is used as a generic term
Speaker 1: for any non motorcycle motorized two wheel vehicle. Okay, this
Speaker 1: is where we had a little discussion about this at
Speaker 1: our desks earlier, because we sitting next to each other
Speaker 1: in the office and we were kind of throwing this
Speaker 1: back and forth a little bit like, Okay, if if
Speaker 1: this is a moped, what what is a scooter? And
Speaker 1: then how do you differentiate between that and a motorcycle?
Speaker 1: And you know, there's there's traditional ways to do that
Speaker 1: by engine size. You can you can say that you know,
Speaker 1: a moped is between forty nine ccs and all the
Speaker 1: way up to ccs. But now I think that there's
Speaker 1: some what they call, I want to say, they're called
Speaker 1: like maxi scooters that are bigger than that. They're capable
Speaker 1: of going faster, but they're still considered a scooter. But
Speaker 1: they're allowed on roads but not on highways. And you
Speaker 1: do sit with your feet forward, you know, on a
Speaker 1: platform in front of the chair, so there's like a
Speaker 1: pass through between the handlebars and where you sit. You're
Speaker 1: not on you don't have your feet on pedals in
Speaker 1: or pegs as you would on a motorcycle. It's on
Speaker 1: like a little just its own little platform. But some
Speaker 1: of those maxi scooters are capable of you know, eighty
Speaker 1: miles per hour, seventy five miles per or something like that. Um,
Speaker 1: that's not the typical scooter that I think of. I
Speaker 1: think of the old vespas, you know, which we're you know,
Speaker 1: the older ones, which are creeping along at about thirty
Speaker 1: miles per hour max. But they did have that traditional
Speaker 1: seating position where you can you can picture that right
Speaker 1: with the platform in front, where your your feet are
Speaker 1: side by side in front of you, And that's what
Speaker 1: I think of. They didn't have a pedal mechanism at
Speaker 1: all like a moped does. So that to me was
Speaker 1: the break between scooters and mopeds. But now I guess
Speaker 1: there's a blurred line between what's a moped and what's
Speaker 1: a scooter. Yeah, I think it's just. I think it's
Speaker 1: just in the use of the term being very casual
Speaker 1: about it, right, I don't think it's I think if
Speaker 1: you were to nail someone down and say no, let's
Speaker 1: let's get to the technical uh distinction between these, they
Speaker 1: would agree. But I think casually people refer to practically
Speaker 1: anything that doesn't look like a motorcycle as a moped
Speaker 1: or a scooter, one or the other, And honestly, it
Speaker 1: really doesn't matter. We're just trying to to segment these
Speaker 1: different things into and just find a way to discuss
Speaker 1: them where everybody can picture the same thing. Now. The
Speaker 1: interesting thing also about mopeds to me is that some
Speaker 1: of them are designed so that, yeah, you could pedal
Speaker 1: and propel them just under pedal power if you needed to,
Speaker 1: like if the engine died or ran all gas. Uh,
Speaker 1: It's not easy to do. This is a very heavy vehicle.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it looks like you're peddaling like crazy and you're
Speaker 1: not really getting anywhere some of them. Really, the pedals
Speaker 1: were more about getting the engine started right, so it
Speaker 1: wasn't about providing any form of propulsion. It was just
Speaker 1: about getting the engine to the point where you could
Speaker 1: get the ignition going and take off. So uh, that
Speaker 1: kind of separates it from electric electric bikes in another way.
Speaker 1: So you've got two big separations. One you're not using
Speaker 1: gas with electric bikes. But the other is that with
Speaker 1: a true E bike, you are supposed to be able
Speaker 1: to pedal and power the bike, or you use some
Speaker 1: form of pedal assists. That's where you get the ped
Speaker 1: alex type of bikes, So that's that's often what they're called,
Speaker 1: where they are providing some of the power to turn
Speaker 1: the wheel of the bicycle so that it offsets some
Speaker 1: of the force needed. And then you have power on
Speaker 1: demand electric bicycles where the electric motor is providing all
Speaker 1: the power you need to propel the bike forward, and
Speaker 1: you can you can cut the motor off and then
Speaker 1: continue to pedal, or if you just want to have
Speaker 1: a real easy ride of it, you just power the
Speaker 1: throttle and that gives the electric motor the power to
Speaker 1: push the bike forward. On, so it's you're using it
Speaker 1: as if it was a scooter, not a bicycle at all.
Speaker 1: For the power on demand systems, okay, and the pedal
Speaker 1: X when you mentioned that, I think people might be
Speaker 1: confused by the term, But that's a combination of three words.
Speaker 1: It's pedal electric cycle and it's pedal X. It's spelled
Speaker 1: a little weird, but PEDALEX. I've also heard elect peds
Speaker 1: simply to say that it's similar to mo peds, so
Speaker 1: instead of motor pedals, you want to think of it
Speaker 1: that way, it's electric pedals. But pedal X is definitely
Speaker 1: the more common of the two that I've seen, and
Speaker 1: you know, these are these are pretty popular I think
Speaker 1: in Uma, as we said, in cities, you know, the
Speaker 1: pedal X systems are the ones that we see a
Speaker 1: lot of because those are the ones that if you're pedaling,
Speaker 1: you get like A watched a few videos of these recently.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm kind of familiar with what's going on here.
Speaker 1: But when you when you get on them and you're pedaling,
Speaker 1: it's like you're feeling something that's pushing you, but it's
Speaker 1: like it's pushing you along because these are rear wheel
Speaker 1: design things. Mostly. I mean, we've seen them on the
Speaker 1: front wheels, but that's more unusual. Usually they're on the
Speaker 1: back wheel, so it's pushing you along. And a lot
Speaker 1: of times when you watch these videos of people who
Speaker 1: are reviewing them or testing them or trying them for
Speaker 1: the first time, you know, never tried an ebike before,
Speaker 1: this pedal assist type system. When they get on them
Speaker 1: and they start riding, they start to giggle. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like they're laughing because they're they're barely pedaling, but
Speaker 1: their cruising along as if they were really really pumping
Speaker 1: the pedals really fast, and you're passing every other bike
Speaker 1: on the bike path. Um, you know, top speed vary
Speaker 1: between you know, different models, but you're going move along
Speaker 1: at a pretty good rate, a pretty rapid rate for
Speaker 1: the limited amount of pedaling that you're doing. And that's
Speaker 1: really the benefit of these pedal lex systems. That and
Speaker 1: you know, let's say you're riding into a headwind, are
Speaker 1: you're riding up a hill, which would be you know,
Speaker 1: pretty important here in Atlanta because it's not a flat
Speaker 1: city by any means, um, So that would be helpful.
Speaker 1: But the pedal systems can be used by law enforcement.
Speaker 1: You know, if they're on bikes, it's a great thing
Speaker 1: because it gives them kind of an edge, I guess
Speaker 1: if they're trying to I don't know, catch up to
Speaker 1: somebody who's on another bike. Um, it assists them in
Speaker 1: in you know, just having to do less work to
Speaker 1: get speech exactly exactly right. And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: different variety of different types of gearings and things that
Speaker 1: you can get with the different types of motors as well,
Speaker 1: so they have their own purpose. Like if you want
Speaker 1: one to go fast, you get this type of of motor.
Speaker 1: If you want one that's gonna pull a lot of weight,
Speaker 1: let's say that you're carrying a trailer, small trailer behind
Speaker 1: your bike. Cargo bikes, Yeah, cargo bikes. That's I'm glad
Speaker 1: you said that because I have written down somewhere that
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about that. Uh, there's a different
Speaker 1: type of motor than the ones we've been kind of
Speaker 1: focusing on mostly it's it's a geared motor that would
Speaker 1: be more efficient for happy loads like that if you're
Speaker 1: pulling a trailer, if you've got a cargo bike like
Speaker 1: you said, or if you're a bigger writer, you know
Speaker 1: somebody who's who's a little heavier on the heavier side,
Speaker 1: a geared motor might be the one that you want. Yeah,
Speaker 1: mid drive motors are also really good about pulling a
Speaker 1: lot of weight or kicking into two gear for something
Speaker 1: like a real steep climb. So let's say that you
Speaker 1: live in San Francisco and you've decided that you want
Speaker 1: to bike to work because you're crazy. Uh, then you
Speaker 1: may want something like a mid drive electric bicycle because
Speaker 1: it's going to give you a lot more when you
Speaker 1: start hitting those really steep hills, those really tall steep hills.
Speaker 1: I mean they're not just steep, they go on forever.
Speaker 1: So you need that kind of kind of ruty for sure.
Speaker 1: When I went to the San Francisco this is a
Speaker 1: long time ago, maybe fifteen years ago, I had a
Speaker 1: friend who, you know, I graduated with this this person,
Speaker 1: and he was now working out there with his wife,
Speaker 1: and I was in town and I had never been
Speaker 1: there before. Was my first time there, and they decided
Speaker 1: that the way we're gonna get around on was on bicycles.
Speaker 1: So this friend doesn't like you. I don't know what
Speaker 1: was going on, but I was just huffing and puffing
Speaker 1: the whole time, and would have to occasionally get off
Speaker 1: and walk my bike up the hill. And as it's crazy,
Speaker 1: well as would they, and you know, they were even
Speaker 1: accustomed to it. You know, they've been doing this for
Speaker 1: a year or two years at that point, so they
Speaker 1: were in a little better shape than then. I wasn't
Speaker 1: that bike. And honestly, even you know, back I lived
Speaker 1: in Michigan the time. Even there, I wasn't necessarily biking
Speaker 1: all the time, so it wasn't really my thing. But
Speaker 1: you know, then we're in the you know, these extremely
Speaker 1: hilly areas. Try we we rode up to the middle
Speaker 1: of the Golden Gate Bridge and you don't realize until
Speaker 1: you're on that bridge that to the midway point is uphill. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Coming back was fine, unbelievable. I couldn't. I just could
Speaker 1: not keep up with that treacherous place to ride a bike.
Speaker 1: And that that's the sort of thing like that. These
Speaker 1: bikes are really good to help for folks who want
Speaker 1: to uh use a bike more frequently, but they might
Speaker 1: encounter these issues or maybe for example, you know, one
Speaker 1: of the little behind the Curtain the episode we're recording
Speaker 1: right now, you guys, is the very last full episode
Speaker 1: of any podcast in How Stuff Works. To use the studio, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this building, Yeah, this studio that we are recording and
Speaker 1: right now is going to be broken down as soon
Speaker 1: as we're done, and then moved across town. Now, when
Speaker 1: we go to that new place across town, it's closer
Speaker 1: to where I live. And I'm thinking about biking to
Speaker 1: work whenever the occasion merits it. That's fantastic, idea, fantastic.
Speaker 1: I also am really thinking about getting an e bike system,
Speaker 1: a pedal pedal a system to help me if because
Speaker 1: I don't want to have the experience of biking to
Speaker 1: work and arriving at work looking like I just biked
Speaker 1: to work in Atlanta, especially in the summer. Yeah, I understand,
Speaker 1: But see, you want a little bit of exercise at
Speaker 1: the same time, right, and it's going to there's gonna
Speaker 1: be hills in between you and the office and I'll
Speaker 1: pill both ways, I'm sure. And uh, the you know,
Speaker 1: humidity ranging in the area. You know, you can't get
Speaker 1: around the sweating. So yeah, and we're talking about several miles.
Speaker 1: It's not it's not like it's around the corner or
Speaker 1: anything like that. So it's a good twenty five minute
Speaker 1: ride from my house. Okay, so that's a that's a
Speaker 1: reasonable distance. I can completely understand why you would want
Speaker 1: something like this now. Now me, I'm not a bike
Speaker 1: rider to begin with. Um, I have one. It's collecting
Speaker 1: dust in the basement. I think, I think I still
Speaker 1: have it after the last move. I don't even know.
Speaker 1: But it's it's just not my thing. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't live in town, so I don't really have a
Speaker 1: use to just quickly grab a vehicle and get somewhere,
Speaker 1: you know, five blocks away or whatever. But that would
Speaker 1: be a perfect use for somebody, you know, if if
Speaker 1: they did have a need like that or like you say,
Speaker 1: to get to work, you know, on days when it's
Speaker 1: sunny and uh and humid, when you don't necessarily want
Speaker 1: to uh to you know, fully exert yourself get in
Speaker 1: there as well. And uh. We could also differentiate really
Speaker 1: quickly between electric bikes and electric motorcycles. There are electric motorcycles. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Harley Davidson is touring around with one, showing it off
Speaker 1: the kind of a prototype electric motorcycle. Yeah, that's is
Speaker 1: that the that's live wire is in it. I think
Speaker 1: it's so it's it's very quiet. You know what, I
Speaker 1: have done a podcast about this. I should remember the name,
Speaker 1: but I believe it's the Harley Davidson Live Wire. It's
Speaker 1: it was the concept. They did a tour around the
Speaker 1: nation and they were allowing people to test drive that vehicle,
Speaker 1: and people who drove it really or wrote it, I guess,
Speaker 1: really really liked it. And the difference between an electric
Speaker 1: motorcycle versus an electric bike is that an electric bike
Speaker 1: has pedals that you can pedal and you operate under
Speaker 1: manual power, whereas electric motorcycle does not. That's the main desert,
Speaker 1: and it's extremely powerful. It's as just as powerful as
Speaker 1: a Harley Davidson motorcycle would be, only an electric form.
Speaker 1: So you know, all the all the other stuff that
Speaker 1: goes along with motorcycle ownerships still apply, and and a
Speaker 1: lot of the considerations that you would have to have
Speaker 1: for a bicycle are no longer part of the thought process, right,
Speaker 1: You don't need to have You don't need to sit
Speaker 1: there and say, well, we can't put a motor on
Speaker 1: that's X powerful because that it adds so much weight
Speaker 1: to the bicycle that a bicyclist isn't going to be
Speaker 1: able to use it. With a motorcycle, you don't have
Speaker 1: to worry about that as much. Now. You just worry
Speaker 1: about how fast that things canna go. Yeah, right, So
Speaker 1: let's talk about some of these motors. Some of the ones. Now,
Speaker 1: keep in mind, like I said, some of these can
Speaker 1: be bought, uh completely, like you can buy a whole
Speaker 1: bike that uses this sort of stuff, or you can
Speaker 1: end up buying conversion kits or these in hub systems
Speaker 1: where it's really an e bike inside a bicycle wheel.
Speaker 1: You literally just replace a wheel with one of these
Speaker 1: and it'll turn it into an e bike, which is
Speaker 1: pretty cool. You were talking about direct drive now. The
Speaker 1: direct drive are the ones that look like a like
Speaker 1: a pie pan in the middle of your wheel. Yes,
Speaker 1: and that's the one that everything is housed within that
Speaker 1: uh that I guess it would be a plastic outer casing, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: plastic in most cases, I think, Uh, you might find
Speaker 1: a couple that do some form of metal as the outside,
Speaker 1: like an aluminum exterior. But again, you want to have
Speaker 1: generally speaking, you want to have something that's going to
Speaker 1: be able to vent heat because it is going to
Speaker 1: build up heat inside of this thing. Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1: Now that the direct drive is just one type, there's
Speaker 1: also the geared systems of geared motors that we'll talk
Speaker 1: about as well. But if you I found a pretty
Speaker 1: good article that that describes some of the pros and
Speaker 1: cons of both types of motors. So there's direct drive,
Speaker 1: there's gear drive. There's pros for both. Now that the
Speaker 1: pros four direct drive system the pipean type you know
Speaker 1: that has everything in case. Uh, they're they're a lot
Speaker 1: more durable than the geared systems. Uh, they're faster and
Speaker 1: they tend to be quieter as well. There's actually more
Speaker 1: pros for the geared systems that we'll talk about in
Speaker 1: just a second. But they provide less drag, they're smaller,
Speaker 1: of course, they're lighter, but they do have more torque
Speaker 1: than the than the direct drive systems. Yeah. I thought
Speaker 1: that was kind of strange, I would think, and that
Speaker 1: has to be just based on gearing, of course, I mean,
Speaker 1: because you can make that work for you however you like. Right,
Speaker 1: But the direct drive motors that we talked to about,
Speaker 1: one thing we said is that it's got to have
Speaker 1: a lot of torque in order to to work because
Speaker 1: the way it's mounted on the wheel, every one rotation
Speaker 1: of the wheel is one rotation of the motors, right
Speaker 1: and right. That has to be an extremely torquey motor
Speaker 1: in order for that to work. Yeah. So, uh, that's
Speaker 1: the benefit of having gears. Right. You can you can
Speaker 1: play with how many times the motor has to rotate
Speaker 1: to rotate a wheel. You can you can use the
Speaker 1: different sizes of gears to determine the actual speech. So
Speaker 1: you can you can get it for speed, or you
Speaker 1: can get it for pulling or for power. Right, so
Speaker 1: kind of like a you know, like a transmission in
Speaker 1: a car. Uh. And so you you use these different
Speaker 1: things for different purposes, Like if you want to have
Speaker 1: a bike where it's just going to be the simplest version,
Speaker 1: the direct drive makes a lot of sense. Uh. It
Speaker 1: is as the fewest moving parts of an electric motor
Speaker 1: compared to the other variations that we've seen, and most
Speaker 1: of the kids that you'll find that you'll see have
Speaker 1: have that direct drive TI stop. Now, I've seen some
Speaker 1: that are geared that are still all self contained, which
Speaker 1: is kind of interesting, but uh, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: where you see like Essentially, there's a gear that the
Speaker 1: motor turns, then there are maybe two gears that interlock
Speaker 1: with that, and then it goes inside a larger casing
Speaker 1: has a gear mounted teeth mounted on the internal wall
Speaker 1: of the the hub, and that that's what causes the
Speaker 1: hub to turn, thus making the wheel turn. UM. So
Speaker 1: all of that can be completely enclosed too. But you
Speaker 1: can also have what what I call mid drive motors.
Speaker 1: Where are you have the external motor. It's not inside
Speaker 1: the hub of the wheel, it's mounted to the exterior
Speaker 1: of your bike. UM. It typically uh, it taps directly
Speaker 1: into your bicycles gear drive train. So you essentially replace
Speaker 1: the chain wheel that your petals would attach to the
Speaker 1: cranks on your pedals at that I think they call
Speaker 1: that the crank set. Yeah, you would replace that with
Speaker 1: the motor, the electric motor version. You know that it
Speaker 1: has the same sort of wheel that you would have
Speaker 1: to mount the chain too, but the motor helps drive
Speaker 1: that wheel so that when you start pedaling, the motor
Speaker 1: drives the actual wheel that you're their pedal cranks are
Speaker 1: attached to. This sounds a lot closer to the like
Speaker 1: a motorcycle set up. Swapping the gasoline engine for the
Speaker 1: electric motor, of course, but it's it's closer in position
Speaker 1: and the way that it drives that rear wheel, you know,
Speaker 1: with a chain or a belt in some cases. Right,
Speaker 1: that's interesting. Those are a lot less common then then
Speaker 1: would be the direct drive motor, which is the hub
Speaker 1: one or the other one that the more complex geared
Speaker 1: system that you described. Yeah, and and these also tend
Speaker 1: to get really super expensive. These are the ones that
Speaker 1: can be really efficient because they're already using the ideal
Speaker 1: gears to turn your bicycle wheel. They're using the gear
Speaker 1: is that the bicycle wheel uses anyway they would use
Speaker 1: under your normal pel. Yeah, and that's one thing that
Speaker 1: the direct drive motor does not provide you with. So
Speaker 1: you know, the one that looks like the pie pan again,
Speaker 1: that really turns any bike that you're riding into a
Speaker 1: single speed bike. But that's really all you need. And
Speaker 1: that was pointed out in one of the reviews. I
Speaker 1: know when the guys right and he's saying, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I have the ability to switch gears here, but I
Speaker 1: can't do that now that this is mounted. But I
Speaker 1: don't even need it because this kind of adapts to
Speaker 1: whatever whatever I need to happen. You know, if I
Speaker 1: need to go faster, I just pedal a little faster.
Speaker 1: If I need to slow down, I back it down.
Speaker 1: And you know, that's one thing that we should mention too,
Speaker 1: is that, um some of the reviewers were saying that
Speaker 1: there's that that instant where you need to stop, you know,
Speaker 1: and this thing is still powering, and it's there's a
Speaker 1: signal that's that's sent to that that that motor, that
Speaker 1: direct drive motor, and it's usually by slightly backpedaling, like
Speaker 1: you know, on a tent speed where you can kind
Speaker 1: of freewheel, you can back backpedal without having to you know,
Speaker 1: hit a coaster break like you went on an older bike,
Speaker 1: as long as you're not either on a yeah, like
Speaker 1: an old single speed bike where you would you would
Speaker 1: use the pedal brakes and that didn't have any handbrakes,
Speaker 1: just pedal brakes, or or even a fixed gear bike
Speaker 1: where you could pedal backwards and that would actually cause
Speaker 1: the wheels to go oh yeah, because you know the fixies,
Speaker 1: as the bike bicycle enthusiasts like Dixies, that never So
Speaker 1: that's so that's what's going on with this is that
Speaker 1: when you want to stop, when you want the assist
Speaker 1: part of this to stop, you back pedal slightly and
Speaker 1: then you use the handbrakes to bring yourself to complete stop.
Speaker 1: But there's that there's the one moment, you know where
Speaker 1: it depends on how fast you're going, if it's you know,
Speaker 1: five ft or ten feet that you travel in that time. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's that moment where it's pushing you along you would
Speaker 1: rather be stopping or you you're you're trying to you
Speaker 1: have to kind of plan ahead. I guess a little
Speaker 1: more with this type of setup right now, they haven't
Speaker 1: quite got it exactly right where it immediately responds to
Speaker 1: the need. Well yeah, because when they're cutting power, what
Speaker 1: you're doing is well, well i'll talk more about what's
Speaker 1: actually going on inside the motors here. When you're cutting power,
Speaker 1: you're essentially cutting electricity to electromagnets. But you know, it
Speaker 1: takes it takes a moment for that that attraction between
Speaker 1: your the magnets, the permanent magnets or potentially another electromagnets
Speaker 1: inside the hub of your wheel. Two um, stop being
Speaker 1: attracted in that circular motion, stop being driven forward, And
Speaker 1: this isn't so bad by any means that you know,
Speaker 1: it's not worth buying it or anything like that. It's
Speaker 1: just it's it's something that everybody noted like, oh that's
Speaker 1: a little strange. But once I adjust to that, everything
Speaker 1: works out fine. Right. So you know, let me talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about how those electric motors are working
Speaker 1: and the basis on electromagnetism. So I've talked about this
Speaker 1: so many times on tech stuff, and I know you
Speaker 1: long term fans who have have heard the electro magnetic
Speaker 1: lecture a billion times. So um, you know, go ahead
Speaker 1: and put this on two time speed and you can
Speaker 1: get through it. But I gotta I gotta cover it.
Speaker 1: So the basic of electromagnetism if you have a coil
Speaker 1: of a conducting material, if you if you coil that
Speaker 1: conducting material around a core, like you know, the classic
Speaker 1: classroom example is you taken an iron nail and you
Speaker 1: wrap some copper wire around the iron nail, and then
Speaker 1: you run an electrical current through that wire. Uh that
Speaker 1: electrical current will create a magnetic field and it will
Speaker 1: turn into an electro magnet. You can react with Ferreross materials,
Speaker 1: Fairest metals, and uh so you can pick up iron
Speaker 1: filings with this thing, because now you've got a magnet.
Speaker 1: If you put alternating current through it, then you've created
Speaker 1: a fluctuating magnetic field, which gets pretty interesting and is
Speaker 1: the basis of a lot of important technology. But anyway,
Speaker 1: if you've got these electromagnets, it creates this magnetic field.
Speaker 1: It will attract other opposite polled magnet materials. So if
Speaker 1: you have permanent magnets, let's say you've got a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of neodymium magnets. Those are very popular for a
Speaker 1: lot of applications these days, and you set them up
Speaker 1: around let's say a wheel, a free rotating wheel, and
Speaker 1: then you've got stationary electro magnets, and you can control
Speaker 1: which electrode magnets are turning on and off at any
Speaker 1: given moment, and you turn them on and off in
Speaker 1: a pattern so that it's constantly attracting and repelling the magnets,
Speaker 1: so that it creates a rotational force that will cause
Speaker 1: the wheel to rotate. Now, this isn't free energy, because
Speaker 1: you're pouring electricity into those electro magnets. This is often
Speaker 1: one of the basics of you'll see people who are
Speaker 1: peddling something they're calling a perpetual motion machine, but in
Speaker 1: reality it's using electro magnets, which means that it has
Speaker 1: to get power from somewhere, which means it's not truly
Speaker 1: perpetual motion. It means it's perpetual motion as long as
Speaker 1: the electricity doesn't run out. It's funny you said peddaling, Yeah, exactly, so, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes pun is unintended, as in this case,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it is intended. So with this rotational force,
Speaker 1: that's what provides the basics of the electric motor. By
Speaker 1: the way, the reverse is also true. If you put
Speaker 1: a conductor into a fluctuating magnetic field, then it will
Speaker 1: induce electricity to flow through that conductor. So in other words,
Speaker 1: if I have an uh, if I take that wire
Speaker 1: and I move it to something where there's a fluctuating
Speaker 1: magnetic field, meaning I'm I've got this polarity reversing over
Speaker 1: and over and over again, electricity will flow through that
Speaker 1: copper wire. So the first version I mentioned, that's the
Speaker 1: basics of the electric motor. The second one is the
Speaker 1: basics of dynamos and magnetos and even alternators. So uh,
Speaker 1: with all that in mind, that direct drive system we
Speaker 1: were talking about. Is the easiest to imagine. Think of
Speaker 1: the electro magnets as a a circle of these coils
Speaker 1: of wire. So the coils of wire are kind of
Speaker 1: if you're thinking of it in that pie shape. You
Speaker 1: turn the bicycle wheel on its side, and you you
Speaker 1: were to pull off the cover, you look at essentially
Speaker 1: little columns of a of coils of electric wire set
Speaker 1: up in a circle. Uh. And these would be stationary
Speaker 1: relative to the rotation of the wheel. They are mounted
Speaker 1: to the axle, They do not rotate, Okay, so they
Speaker 1: are they they're going to remain stationary compared to the
Speaker 1: rotation of the wheel. Around this, you would have a
Speaker 1: rotating uh wheel, rotating or rotating chamber that has permanent
Speaker 1: magnets mounted on it. All right, Now, these are the
Speaker 1: magnets that are going to be attracted and repelled by
Speaker 1: the electro magnets in the center. And because these can rotate,
Speaker 1: that change in electromagnetism is what's going to make it
Speaker 1: move and make the wheel turn, whether it's to assist
Speaker 1: you or to completely take over and act as an
Speaker 1: electric throttle. So that's where your direct drive just comes
Speaker 1: in exactly. And there are some that I've seen that
Speaker 1: connect as both like the mid drive. Some of the
Speaker 1: mid drives connect as pedal assist or then you can
Speaker 1: switch it to throttle control and then it just completely
Speaker 1: takes over for you. Um. So this is, uh, this
Speaker 1: is the very basic version, the easiest one to understand.
Speaker 1: With the electric motors, and that that chamber of permanent
Speaker 1: magnets when it does one full rotation, that's the full
Speaker 1: rotation of the wheel, right And uh, usually you have
Speaker 1: a multiple phase electric motor, and that sounds really complicated,
Speaker 1: but it's actually really easy. In fact, I'll give you
Speaker 1: a very simple example. Let's imagine that we have a clock,
Speaker 1: an analog clock, round clock, regular old thing you've seen
Speaker 1: a billion times. Now, imagine that instead of a number
Speaker 1: at each space where there normally would be one, you've
Speaker 1: got one of those coils of electric are copper wire,
Speaker 1: So you've got an electro magnet at each of the
Speaker 1: number spots. If you have a phase three motor, that
Speaker 1: means that one third of those numbers are all going
Speaker 1: to essentially switch on and switch off simultaneously. The other
Speaker 1: two thirds will do the same with their respective groups.
Speaker 1: So with the twelve number version, for a standard clock.
Speaker 1: Your twelve o'clock, three o'clock, six o'clock, and nine o'clock
Speaker 1: positions would all turn on and off simultaneously. Then you
Speaker 1: would have the one o'clock, four o'clock, seven o'clock, and
Speaker 1: ten o'clock one's doing the same and the two, five, eight,
Speaker 1: and eleven o'clock one is doing the same. And by
Speaker 1: switching between these you can have a smoother transition. To
Speaker 1: keep the bike wheel moving as smoothly as possible. It's
Speaker 1: not speeding up, slowing down, right, it's to try and
Speaker 1: keep that nice and smooth. And obviously the more phases
Speaker 1: you have, then at least to some point, the smoother
Speaker 1: the the the experience will be. You may that very
Speaker 1: easy to understand. Yeah, so, uh, you know, I I
Speaker 1: looked at this a lot to try and figure out
Speaker 1: how I was going to explain worked. Well, thank you,
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. So, yeah, that's that makes the direct
Speaker 1: drive really easy to understand. The geared ones are a
Speaker 1: little a little more complicated, but not by a whole lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're they're different, and they've got some parts that wear
Speaker 1: as well because they've got nylon gears and as you
Speaker 1: can imagine those those uh, you know, grinding on each other. Um,
Speaker 1: they're going to show signs of wear for time and
Speaker 1: you have to replace parts in them. So they're a
Speaker 1: little bit more complex than that. There's a there's actually
Speaker 1: quite a few different things. You know, they're a little
Speaker 1: bit noisier. Um, they have a lower top speed typically.
Speaker 1: Now that again, we can talk about gearing again if
Speaker 1: you want, but I think that everybody kind of understands
Speaker 1: that you can play with that gearing however you want
Speaker 1: for for an increased top speed if you need to.
Speaker 1: But typically they have a lower top speed. If you
Speaker 1: buy a bike that has a set up with a
Speaker 1: geared system, it's more for um, the heavy duty applications
Speaker 1: like the pulling or the throwing and um as we
Speaker 1: mentioned ability, right, I mean, that's that's one thing that
Speaker 1: the you know, getting in there to service them, if
Speaker 1: you have to do this yourself or you know, it
Speaker 1: could be expensive, I guess probably more expensive in the
Speaker 1: long run because of because of maintenance. You're probably talking
Speaker 1: like bucks at least to bring it into a bike
Speaker 1: shop to have a service. And honestly, the prices I
Speaker 1: mean from the kids that I was looking at, you
Speaker 1: know the difference between buying a kit to add to
Speaker 1: your bike. You know, the difference between a geared motor
Speaker 1: and a direct drive motor. It was just about identical.
Speaker 1: So you know, the the added expense that you're gonna
Speaker 1: have with a geared motor is something you have to consider,
Speaker 1: you know, somewhere down the road, you know, whether it
Speaker 1: be a year down the road or I don't know
Speaker 1: how often it would have to be serviced. I think
Speaker 1: it depends on youths really well. One other thing I
Speaker 1: would mention about the direct drive systems that is a drawback,
Speaker 1: small one. It's something called cogging. Cogging. I saw a
Speaker 1: someone trying to, uh, trying to depict this on one
Speaker 1: of the reviews, and I didn't quite see what it was.
Speaker 1: What's so so cogging is where you've got these magnets
Speaker 1: right inside inside the direct drive. They're constantly rotating because
Speaker 1: they're in the part that moves along with the rotation
Speaker 1: force of the wheel. If you have your system unpowered,
Speaker 1: so you don't have any pedal like going, that's the
Speaker 1: electro magnets are off. Those magnets are somewhat attracted to
Speaker 1: the materials at the core of that wheel the stationary part,
Speaker 1: So that part of stationary with respect to the ground,
Speaker 1: like with respect to the rest of the bike, and
Speaker 1: who wouldn't be that's a good looking part, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So when you're trying to pedal, that means that these
Speaker 1: magnets are slightly attracted to that stationary part, the resisting moving,
Speaker 1: So you have to overcome that magnetic resistance to get
Speaker 1: them to move. It's not necessarily a significant like, it's
Speaker 1: not it's not like you're gonna be like straining to
Speaker 1: move forward a few inches, but it means you have
Speaker 1: to work a little harder initially, yeah, to to get
Speaker 1: it moving because it has this drag effect. So it's
Speaker 1: called cogging, but really you can think of it as
Speaker 1: drag in the sense that it's a magnetic drag. That
Speaker 1: is listed as one of the cons on this in
Speaker 1: this article that I'm kind of following along with here
Speaker 1: and the uh the article, I mean, it's from a
Speaker 1: site called e bite kit dot com, so that's where
Speaker 1: you can also buy a kit, but it was a
Speaker 1: review blog post was done by somebody and um one
Speaker 1: of the cons that they mentioned for direct drive is drag.
Speaker 1: Drag when you when you pedal um. Now the other ones,
Speaker 1: you know, the geared systems I guess don't have that
Speaker 1: kind of drag, but there's more noise because those gears
Speaker 1: are constantly spitting in there as well. Um. The other thing,
Speaker 1: the other cons I guess we should want to just
Speaker 1: list them now for the directory system are that it
Speaker 1: has typically has less range. Uh, there are a lot
Speaker 1: you know, a lot bigger, and they're heavier than the
Speaker 1: geared systems would because the gear systems can be much smaller.
Speaker 1: They're they're again it's just based on gearing, how efficient
Speaker 1: you want to make them. And we've talked about batteries.
Speaker 1: We've talked and I felt I missed my chance to
Speaker 1: mention this, but the size of the battery matters as well.
Speaker 1: So you want a big, powerful battery, you're gonna go
Speaker 1: a little bit fat. It's gonna be able to power
Speaker 1: that you know, that that motor, whether it's a direct
Speaker 1: drive or whether it's a geared system, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: able to to I guess expel expend more juice to
Speaker 1: make that thing go a little faster. Um. It's it's
Speaker 1: very similar to if you think about the like the
Speaker 1: Tesla cars, um you know, there's the version I think
Speaker 1: it has a sixty kill a lot. Uh. I think
Speaker 1: I'm getting these numbers right. I hope I am sixty
Speaker 1: kill a lot battery. And then there's an eight five
Speaker 1: kill a lot battery and it's the the higher performance version.
Speaker 1: So it depends on the battery size and the output
Speaker 1: of that battery, how fast you're gonna go, Also the
Speaker 1: size of the motor, the output of the motor. You know,
Speaker 1: you need to get the right pairing. And there's some
Speaker 1: other really cool things that we're starting to see paired
Speaker 1: with these electric bytes bikes, especially the wheel systems that
Speaker 1: are coming out there too, in particular that I was
Speaker 1: really interested in. But there's more than that. You actually
Speaker 1: mentioned another one when we were talking before we came
Speaker 1: in here, but the Copenhagen or Copenhagen wheel from M
Speaker 1: I T and the fly Cli wheel, which uh some
Speaker 1: have suggested might have taken more than a little bit
Speaker 1: of inspiration from the Copenhagen wheel. But the truth is,
Speaker 1: these direct drive motors all look the same, it's all
Speaker 1: the same ideas, so that's hard to say. The implementation
Speaker 1: is really what's important here because it also depends on
Speaker 1: the sensors that you include, and that's where we're starting
Speaker 1: to see more complexity like that when you break it down,
Speaker 1: a direct drive in hub system is one of the
Speaker 1: simplest electric motors that you can have. But the complexity
Speaker 1: comes in these other sensors that come to play. Like
Speaker 1: some of these kits use uh you know, how do
Speaker 1: they know when to kick in and help give you
Speaker 1: pedal assystem For example, some of them, you mount a
Speaker 1: small magnet on one of the spokes of your wheel
Speaker 1: and mounted to a stationary part of the bicycle is
Speaker 1: a sensor and every time the magnet passes the sensor,
Speaker 1: it it uh clocks it so it knows, all right,
Speaker 1: the wheels having this many rotations per minute, therefore they're
Speaker 1: pedaling this amount. Therefore I will kick in this much assistance. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, about thirty years ago, I had a spedometer
Speaker 1: on a bicycle that worked the same way. It's it's
Speaker 1: really simple, it's really basic, and a lot of there's
Speaker 1: a lot of sensors and automobiles that work that same
Speaker 1: way as well. It's just a counter. It's just counting one, two,
Speaker 1: three's well, it's just more like one one one, But
Speaker 1: but it's just every rotation is saying it's just registering
Speaker 1: that right as movement. And then there are other ones
Speaker 1: that are torque sensors, right, These are these are calculating
Speaker 1: how much force the bicyclist is applying to the pedals,
Speaker 1: and it kicks in the electric motor to help counteract
Speaker 1: that force to keep it either very smooth or to
Speaker 1: just say like, all right, we have a threshold here,
Speaker 1: and anything beyond this threshold we need to kick in
Speaker 1: the electronic assess so that way we're not making the
Speaker 1: bicyclist pedal too hard. And it's a bit more complex, yeah, obviously, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then it also means that it tends to be
Speaker 1: more expensive, Like the systems that have that version of
Speaker 1: sensor are more expensive than the ones that just count rotations.
Speaker 1: And some of these are wired systems and some are
Speaker 1: wireless systems. And we talked about earlier. We talked about
Speaker 1: the control of these these systems and some of the readouts.
Speaker 1: You know, because a lot of the kids come with
Speaker 1: an LCD dashboard and it'll tell you all the information
Speaker 1: you need to need to know about, you know, the
Speaker 1: range that you know, what you have left battery power, etcetera.
Speaker 1: You know just how much help you're getting, like whether
Speaker 1: it's uh, you know, a little bit of help or
Speaker 1: a lot of help, that kind of stuff. You can
Speaker 1: put it in different modes like Eco mode, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, less help and it's it saves the battery,
Speaker 1: I guess you have an extended amount of range, or
Speaker 1: you can put it in performance mode or whatever they
Speaker 1: call it by the manufacturer. But some of them are
Speaker 1: controlled with your smartphone and how this is one of
Speaker 1: the downsides of this though. I mean, it's really cool
Speaker 1: that you can do that, and you can mount it
Speaker 1: right in the center of your of your handlebars, you know,
Speaker 1: right where you can see it. But you still have
Speaker 1: to avert your eyes from the traffic or wherever you
Speaker 1: are right in order to look down at that smartphone.
Speaker 1: And then you have to interact with it. So it's
Speaker 1: sort of akin to texting and driving or texting and
Speaker 1: biking right in a way. I know, they make the
Speaker 1: controls very easy. You know, it's it's large buttons. You
Speaker 1: just touched and swipe, and once you get accustomed to
Speaker 1: where that is, you might be able to do that,
Speaker 1: you know, relatively quickly. You know, you won't have to
Speaker 1: stare at stare at it for quite as long as
Speaker 1: you will when it's new to you. But you know,
Speaker 1: the more options you have, the more the more complex
Speaker 1: the interface is going to be. So for example, if
Speaker 1: you have the Copenhangen wheel, it's got a lot of
Speaker 1: different options, right, and you have an app that connects
Speaker 1: to the wheel, and it's using low energy Bluetooth, so
Speaker 1: it's not sipping a whole lot of power, although in fact,
Speaker 1: I would say that for your smartphone, the most power
Speaker 1: that's been consumed is just powering the display, Like that
Speaker 1: display is going to suck up more battery power than
Speaker 1: the low energy bluetooth. However, all that being said, if
Speaker 1: you've got lots and lots of options, that means you've
Speaker 1: got to swipe through stuff too, and that makes it
Speaker 1: even more complicated because your your attention is taken away
Speaker 1: from your surroundings in the road even more so that
Speaker 1: you can switch. Uh. They also have options for things
Speaker 1: like regenerative breaking or regenerating some of that electricity by
Speaker 1: putting it into exercise mode, which is where you're you're
Speaker 1: kind of working against the motor. The idea being that, uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's sort of reversing this this trend. Instead of uh,
Speaker 1: the electricity causing the motor to turn and thus giving
Speaker 1: you help, you are pushing the motor, which is causing
Speaker 1: electricity to flow the other direction and recharge the battery.
Speaker 1: It's turning a motor into a dynamo in other words. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and now one of the one of the models that
Speaker 1: I saw, um, you know, Demode, I think it was
Speaker 1: maybe the Copenhagen wheel is the one that if you're
Speaker 1: backpedaling as you're in motion, if you're so so the motor,
Speaker 1: you're you're saying to the motor, you don't want it
Speaker 1: to assist you in pedaling at this point, and you backpedal.
Speaker 1: That's the regenerative mode. That's it's it's you're gaining battery power,
Speaker 1: I guess by doing that. And you can also make
Speaker 1: a hill work for you in the same way. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: when going down the hill, you put an exercise mode,
Speaker 1: which normally would mean you have to pedal harder to
Speaker 1: get to wherever you were going. Let's say you're on
Speaker 1: a totally flat surface, You've got everything turned off and
Speaker 1: you and you ride across this flat surface. You're using
Speaker 1: a certain amount of energy. In order to do that,
Speaker 1: if you turned on exercise mode, you'd have to put
Speaker 1: in a little extra energy because now you're working against
Speaker 1: that motor to kind of regenerate electricity. If you're going
Speaker 1: down the hill, you let gravity do that extra work
Speaker 1: for you. So you switch from pedal assisted to exercise
Speaker 1: and you can regenerate some of the electricity, giving your
Speaker 1: battery a little bit extra juice that you can make
Speaker 1: it all the way to work. But that means having
Speaker 1: to switch modes in mid ride, and that's where we're
Speaker 1: getting into this, like how do you do that in
Speaker 1: a way that's not distracting the bicycle. See with that one,
Speaker 1: you're not looking down at the screen and swiping through.
Speaker 1: You're just physically doing something. And I thought that was
Speaker 1: a great way to handle that. And then you know,
Speaker 1: you just slightly backpedal. Everybody can remember that and you
Speaker 1: don't have to look down to do that. And I
Speaker 1: was thinking, why don't start to incorporate some of these
Speaker 1: controls in the handlebars as if it would be a
Speaker 1: game controller, Because once you learn a game controller, and
Speaker 1: you know what, it takes you ten minutes or if
Speaker 1: it takes you ten weeks to learn that game controller.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe not ten weeks, but you understand where
Speaker 1: it is. You don't have to look down, you know,
Speaker 1: find out where the X button is or where the
Speaker 1: A button is. It becomes natural. It's a it's a
Speaker 1: you know, um memory, muscle memory, that's the term. So
Speaker 1: once if you if you were to have a system
Speaker 1: that was universal, you know that all design all e
Speaker 1: bike designers used it, you know, that used the same
Speaker 1: hand controls on the on the not the pegs on
Speaker 1: the handlebars, handle grips, it would be something that I
Speaker 1: think everybody could benefit from because you know, you could
Speaker 1: sure you can still have your your phone there and
Speaker 1: you could have that you know, set up so that yeah,
Speaker 1: i'm gonna I'm just gonna put it in eco mode
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna leave it there, but every other control,
Speaker 1: you know, from that point on, I can use hand
Speaker 1: controls without looking down. I think that would be great
Speaker 1: for somebody who's in traffic and crowded cities like what
Speaker 1: we're talking about now. Most of them aren't as advanced
Speaker 1: as that we were talking about. That's that's the top end,
Speaker 1: really expensive ones, the ones that I'm sure that you
Speaker 1: know most of you know, the people in these crowded
Speaker 1: cities that have these kind of early versions of e bikes,
Speaker 1: they're not that complex. They they respond more to the
Speaker 1: physical commands like what we were talking about with the
Speaker 1: backpedaling for the generation and things like that. And some
Speaker 1: of them do have things like thumb throttles or thumb
Speaker 1: controls to either said on uh you know, pedal assist,
Speaker 1: or they might have a twist throttle for the fully
Speaker 1: powered electric bikes sure like a mini biker a motorbike
Speaker 1: would have. Yeah. Yeah, so there there are those versions.
Speaker 1: But the ones that I've seen, like the fly Line
Speaker 1: and the Copenhagen both of those are completely one wheel
Speaker 1: systems that then hook up like once you once you
Speaker 1: detach your existing rear wheel and then install the the
Speaker 1: Copenhagen wheel or the fly lie wheel. Uh, then all
Speaker 1: you do is you you hook it up to your
Speaker 1: smartphone and then that's what activates it's it also has
Speaker 1: some interesting safety features, like you can deactivate it so
Speaker 1: that if someone were to take your wheel, it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be of any use to them because they couldn't turn
Speaker 1: it back on again. You mentioned theft, right, because that's
Speaker 1: that's something that a lot of people would be concerned
Speaker 1: with if their back wheel of their bike is where
Speaker 1: is now worth two thousand dollars just one wheel? Right?
Speaker 1: I mean it's just a matter of two bolts to
Speaker 1: get that thing off of there. Right, So you park
Speaker 1: your bike and it's worth two thousand dollars the back
Speaker 1: end and then whatever else the rest of the bike costs.
Speaker 1: Probably an expensive bike, I guess. So what what prevents
Speaker 1: somebody from just either walking away with your bike, which
Speaker 1: I guess they could do anyways, or just taking that
Speaker 1: that that wheel off. I mean, you have to be
Speaker 1: very creative about how you chain this thing up or
Speaker 1: or what you do with it. But there's there's a
Speaker 1: safety in place, I guess if it does walk away, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a couple of them, right. There's one that has
Speaker 1: the electric motor turn off and it doesn't turn on
Speaker 1: again until it recognizes the handshake with your particular smartphone
Speaker 1: because you're paired it. Uh. There's also some that have
Speaker 1: GPS in them, so that should the wheel go wandering,
Speaker 1: you can track down where it is, kind of similar
Speaker 1: to like where's my iPhone? That sort of stuff will
Speaker 1: alert you if it's moving when you're not near it,
Speaker 1: which is interesting like that, and it's a useful feature. Uh.
Speaker 1: The Copenhagen one, I think is seven nine, and I
Speaker 1: think the fly Cli is something like six hundred. Uh
Speaker 1: they're they're about a hundred dollars off. I remember that.
Speaker 1: And uh so they're both pretty expensive. I mean, if
Speaker 1: you're looking at a brand new bicycle, depending upon what
Speaker 1: market you're in, it could be the same price as
Speaker 1: your bike. And that's just a wheel. So and and
Speaker 1: the e bike kits that I was I was mentioning you,
Speaker 1: that's that I keep saying that, so I hope you
Speaker 1: don't mind. But it's the bike kit dot com because
Speaker 1: they have a lot of good information there as well.
Speaker 1: And again they ranged from about seven hundred and seventy
Speaker 1: five dollars up to about two thousand. Was the top
Speaker 1: one I saw. But you're talking about different um completely
Speaker 1: different packages. Like that seven seventy five kid, it doesn't
Speaker 1: it It has no battery and it has no charger.
Speaker 1: UM so you're gonna have to add on to that thing, right.
Speaker 1: The other one has everything, as I mentioned. But the difference,
Speaker 1: one of the biggest differences is in the top speed
Speaker 1: and the range of these things. So you know, the
Speaker 1: lower kids tend to have a lower top speed and
Speaker 1: a and a slightly less range you know, or lower range,
Speaker 1: I guess. And as far as the distance you can travel, um,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe the low end one is like,
Speaker 1: you know, twelve to fifteen miles with power assist, and
Speaker 1: the upper arrange one can go all the way up
Speaker 1: to about fifty four miles. So a fifty four mile
Speaker 1: bike ride on one charge. That's pretty good, I mean.
Speaker 1: And you know, top speed if about twenty eight miles
Speaker 1: per hour. Now you might be limited in some cities
Speaker 1: to what speed you're allowed to travel because there are
Speaker 1: restrictions on some of these things. And the UK it's
Speaker 1: an hour, which is about fifteen yeah, and here it's
Speaker 1: a little bit faster in the States here I think
Speaker 1: it was what twenties. And then there's that odd strange thing.
Speaker 1: It's not it's not so odd really when you really
Speaker 1: think about it, because everybodys gonna want to go a
Speaker 1: little bit faster, right, there's it's gonna be the group
Speaker 1: that wants the sport version, right, So there's the s
Speaker 1: pedal X for those people, and that stands for Speedy
Speaker 1: Pedal X. And the difference is there they have a
Speaker 1: more powerful motor. Um you know, of course you can
Speaker 1: do unlimited pedal assists if you want, so it can
Speaker 1: be kind of like a power on demand type system. Um, oh,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to take that back again.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it will do that, but it
Speaker 1: has unlimited When I'm saying it now, I've understand it.
Speaker 1: It's a it's unlimited pedal assists. So you know, once
Speaker 1: you reach that twenty miles per hour, it doesn't kind
Speaker 1: of cut out like the ones that are limited. So
Speaker 1: if you're capable of powering it further, it will continue
Speaker 1: to assist, and you would be because see it's one
Speaker 1: of those things where like you, because it's a pedal
Speaker 1: assist system, you would be able to get up to
Speaker 1: twenty miles per hour no problem. And then once you continue,
Speaker 1: it's like you're putting out less energy to go faster,
Speaker 1: and then you put out just a little bit more
Speaker 1: and you can go way faster and it just carries on.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's got to be an upper limit.
Speaker 1: There has to be a a top limit, but really
Speaker 1: the speed cutout is set far far higher, and for
Speaker 1: this type of sis them. Uh, you know, things like um,
Speaker 1: you know, helmets and protective gear are required because they
Speaker 1: realize that it's closer to a scooter or a motorcycle
Speaker 1: even in some phases depends on how fast you can go,
Speaker 1: but the speedy pedal X or something for you know,
Speaker 1: the people that want to kind of take it to
Speaker 1: the next level. Right, I don't think I'm gonna need
Speaker 1: anything quite at that level if I if I do
Speaker 1: invest in one of these, uh, And I gotta say
Speaker 1: that something else we should mention is that the in
Speaker 1: hub systems do have other other things you gotta remember.
Speaker 1: For one, it's going to offset the weight of your bicycle,
Speaker 1: like it's going to put a lot more weight on
Speaker 1: whatever wheel you're replacing. Yes, and we're talking like ballpark
Speaker 1: ten pounds. I mean that's right around where it is.
Speaker 1: It's that you know, I've seen nine pound systems and
Speaker 1: I've seen thirteen pound systems, so somewhere in there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that's gonna be something to keep in mind. The
Speaker 1: as opposed to some of the other like the mid
Speaker 1: drive systems, they kind of balance the weight out across
Speaker 1: the frame of the bicycle, so you don't have one
Speaker 1: section of the bike that is is heavier than it
Speaker 1: otherwise would be. But you know, it's it's well, it's
Speaker 1: important for riding, you know, for the way it feels
Speaker 1: on the road, but it's even more important when you're
Speaker 1: trying to carry it up the stairs and put it
Speaker 1: in your house at night. Yeah, so I'll be I'll
Speaker 1: be sure to keep all of my listeners posted if
Speaker 1: I if I invest in one of these things, I
Speaker 1: would love to see it if you were if you
Speaker 1: ride that into work, I would love to come down
Speaker 1: to the parking structure or whatever and maybe even take
Speaker 1: it for a quick sure. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: funny because it will mean that my wheel will be
Speaker 1: much more valuable, or at least cost a lot more
Speaker 1: than my bike did because I got my bike for free,
Speaker 1: so so automatically the wheel will be more expensive a
Speaker 1: free bike. Yeah, that's nice. There's a thing called free
Speaker 1: cycle Atlanta where people give away stuff. Would they don't
Speaker 1: have space for it anymore? And you found a bike
Speaker 1: and the guy was given away his bike, Wow, I
Speaker 1: got a bike. It's not it's not fancy, it's not
Speaker 1: it's not a super fancy bike, but it's it's a bike.
Speaker 1: Do they have any boats there? You know, I like
Speaker 1: a boat, but I don't necessarily want to buy a boat.
Speaker 1: The second happiest day of my life was when I
Speaker 1: bought my boat. Happiest day of my life was when
Speaker 1: I sold it. All right, Well, Scott, thank you for
Speaker 1: coming on the show. Of course, my pleasure. And and
Speaker 1: in in addition to the website you mentioned, I also
Speaker 1: want to mention electric bike review dot com, which has
Speaker 1: some great articles and some great videos. If you are
Speaker 1: interested in buying an electric bike or buying a conversion kit,
Speaker 1: they have everything you would need to know, and they
Speaker 1: also review them so you can actually look and see
Speaker 1: if they've reviewed the system you're interested in, and see
Speaker 1: what they have to say about it. Always helpful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they had like a fifteen minute long review of the
Speaker 1: Copenhagen Wheel for example, which was very interesting. They went
Speaker 1: into great detail about it. So uh and Scott, if
Speaker 1: people want to find your stuff, where do they go? Oh? Sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: we have our own website which is car Stuff Show
Speaker 1: dot com and you know Facebook, Twitter, all that stuff.
Speaker 1: We are car stuff HS of you yep, and same
Speaker 1: here for tech stuff we're tech stuff HSW on Facebook
Speaker 1: and Twitter and over on Tumbler, and you can also
Speaker 1: send me an email tech stuff at how stuff works
Speaker 1: dot com. Uh, following this episode, we're gonna have a
Speaker 1: couple of rerun episodes. That's just so that we have
Speaker 1: enough buffer between when we break this studio down and
Speaker 1: when our next studio is ready to go. And I
Speaker 1: didn't want you guys to go a single week without
Speaker 1: any episodes, So don't be frightened if you hear some reruns,
Speaker 1: just temporary, I promise, and you will hear new stuff
Speaker 1: from me. Release for more on this and basons of
Speaker 1: other topics because it has staff works dot com