1 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Good morning, peepson, Welcome to woke f Daily. Would meet 2 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: your girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker, Folks, 3 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to welcome back to wok Appa Daily 4 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: our friend and our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, 5 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: the author of Dying of Whiteness. And today Jonathan and 6 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: I get into yet another conversation about the lack of 7 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,639 Speaker 1: gun reform in this country. But it's predicated on an 8 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: awful fucking video that is going around on TikTok that 9 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: I've seen reposted on Joey Read from MSNBC's Instagram page. 10 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: Viola Davis, actress, reposted on her page, and it is 11 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: if you haven't seen this video, because I by the 12 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: time that this recording come out, I will have done 13 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: a TikTok of my own. It is a video of 14 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: an Alabama school district that has rolled out a new product, 15 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: which is a whiteboard that pulls out into a bulletproof 16 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: shelter safe room for your kids in the classroom. It 17 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: is the most obscene fucking thing that I have seen ever. 18 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: And the reason why it's going viral is because people 19 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: in this country and other countries are like, Wow, classrooms 20 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: are supposed to be safe spaces. Schools are supposed to 21 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: be safe fucking spaces. The fact that Americans would rather 22 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: build safe rooms and monetize bullet proof backpacks so monetize 23 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: childhood trauma instead of voting for politicians that care more 24 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: about our fucking children and our nation's safety than they 25 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: do their fucking donor base is absurd. But you know, 26 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: let's hand it to Americans to be able to fucking 27 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: monetize every goddamn thing, including your children's trauma. You know, 28 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: we are now living with the first generation of active 29 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: shooter drill children who are now Gen z's, graduating from college, 30 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: entering into the workforce. They've been doing active shooter drill 31 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: since they were three fucking years old. We have created 32 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: an entire generation of traumatized, depressed, and anxiety riddled children 33 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: that how are now adults who have never known safety ever. 34 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: Think about that. Think about your own childhood. Think about 35 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: the fears that you might have had, the normal fears, 36 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: right the boogeyman, you know, maybe the bully at school, 37 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: maybe standing up and giving your presentation. But nobody from 38 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: the boomers to the gen xers to most of the 39 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: millennials ever had to fear getting shot dead in their classroom, 40 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: getting shot dead at their place of worship, getting shot 41 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: dead at the mall. But this is what we are 42 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: doing now. We're creating bulletproof whiteboard safe rooms inside of 43 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: classrooms instead of passing gun reform. What in the entire fuck? 44 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: So coming up next, friends, my conversation with our in 45 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, who has a new book 46 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: that will be coming out next year, folks, on this 47 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: very issue, folks. I can't tell you how excited I 48 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: am to welcome back to woke F Daily doctor Jonathan Metzel, 49 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: our friend and the author of Dying of Whiteness, who 50 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: is working on a new book that I can't wait 51 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: to read and discuss here on Woke f when it 52 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: comes out. Jonathan, it's been a while, and sadly, in 53 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: the time that we have not been together, there have 54 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: been so many mass shootings, more mass shootings that have 55 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: happened than days in the year thus far. This week, 56 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: President Biden went to Moderate, California, the site of the 57 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: shooting that was targeted at the Asian American community during 58 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: the Lunar New Year celebration. There, he spoke about you 59 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: know how many times he has done this, the fact 60 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: that we need sensible gun reform. It's the same conversation 61 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: that unfortunately he has had as Vice president and now 62 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: as president of the United States. And so I just 63 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: want to get initially your reactions to his speech and 64 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: where we find ourselves right now in twenty twenty three. Well, 65 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: I appreciate that President Biden did something. I think it's 66 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: symbolically important. I think where he did it is important, 67 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: and I think that it's also important that he signals 68 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: that he's not going to let this issue diet, that 69 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: he's going to keep at it. But I would also, 70 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: of course admit a frustration because but democratic presidents can 71 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: do are largely symbolic executive orders that can easily be 72 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: overturned if a Republican takes over. That's what we saw 73 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: with President Obama after his frustration that nothing really got 74 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: passed after Sandy Hook and all the all the uproar 75 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: after that, tried to work with people, tried to work 76 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: with people, and then ultimately passed a bunch of really 77 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: I think, really good executive orders keeping guns away from 78 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: people with serious amounts of illness or convictions. Another thing 79 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: President Obama did was invest in smart gun technology to 80 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: guns that could only be fired by recognizing the palm 81 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: print of somebody who owned them, which I think would 82 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: be great. But the minute Trump took over, he just 83 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: overturned all that stuff, and so really there's a kind 84 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: of back and forth nature of it. And of course 85 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: the other part is that a lot of things that 86 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: are signed by executive order really aren't implemented that much 87 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: in states that have really strong gun lobbies. So California, 88 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: we're you know, California's already doing a lot of the 89 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: things that President Biden had suggested, enhanced background checks, other 90 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: kinds of factors, but it's limited because it's surrounded by 91 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: states like Arizona where there are hardly any gun laws, 92 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,679 Speaker 1: and so it really can't stop the flow of guns 93 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: into its borders. And so again, I think this is 94 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: an ongoing struggle, obviously a polarizing struggle struggle, but I 95 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: just to be honest, as somebody who's studied this for 96 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: a long time, I think it's important to keep going. 97 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: But of course there's always frustration that we just keep 98 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: going back and forth about the same issues of background 99 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: checks and red flag laws, when really what we're talking 100 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: about is a much bigger issue about polarization and public 101 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: safety and race and guns in America. You know, Jonathan, 102 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: what I find so troubling about where we are right now, 103 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: and I feel like, you know, for the past I 104 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: don't even know, it's been three years now since you 105 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: and I have been in deep conversation about so many 106 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: issues that are affecting Americans every single day. But when 107 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: I see President Biden, you know, once again, do exactly 108 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: what she said. You know, he provides a moral barometer, right, 109 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: he gives a speech, he is empathetic, and he does 110 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: what any responsible president of this country would do. But 111 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, we know that that 112 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: community and Moniti. Since that shooting actually happened, there have 113 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: been I think roughly sixty plus shootings that have happened, 114 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: right because we know that mass shootings are identified as 115 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: four people shot or more at a time. So since then, 116 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, there have been countless and not everybody gets 117 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: a headline, and not everybody gets the met the attention 118 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: unless it's gruesome, unless the ages of the victims are young, 119 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: unless it's a marginalized community that was targeted. You know, 120 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: this is Republicans problem. This is the problem of Republicans 121 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: solely right. That if we had the will of the 122 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: Republican Party to recognize that young children shouldn't have to 123 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: learn how to army crawl and begin active shooter drills 124 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: at three years old in this country, that that shouldn't 125 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: be a norm of what it means to grow up 126 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: in America, we wouldn't be here. So explain to me 127 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: and just your thoughts on where parents and caregivers are 128 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: in this country, because this to me, Jonathan, Yes, I 129 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: understand the gun manufacturers make money. I understand the gun 130 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,359 Speaker 1: lobby is a billion dollar industry, and I understand that Republicans, 131 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, have written their souls off in blood in 132 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: order for donors right from the NRA. But this has 133 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: got to be beyond four parents and caregivers, beyond a 134 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: partisan issue. Unfortunately, it is a superpartisan issue. It's an 135 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: identity issue for a lot of people, and so of 136 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: course I definitely, definitely, definitely agree with you. I wish 137 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: that we could come together to make school safe, and 138 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: workplace is safe, and shopping mall safe and every place 139 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: else that has been targeted by this horrible violence. But 140 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: I think that the split really is how people respond 141 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: to it. I mean, I've been doing this kind of 142 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: work for a long time, and I think that the 143 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: false dichotomy that we get into is like Democrats want 144 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: gun safety and Republicans wants shootings, Like nobody really, when 145 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: it comes down to it, really wants shootings. Are we sure? 146 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: Because when you have I mean, honestly, I think about 147 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 1: this because when you have, right, I saw another headline 148 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: this week which was that a four year old got 149 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: a hand of a gun in Texas that was not 150 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: locked up and shot and killed their three year old sibling. Right, 151 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: That's a normal headline in places that have loosened or 152 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: completely erased any type of gun safety. Right. But I 153 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: guess the let me let me just what I mean. 154 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: I mean that Republicans are so programmed to think that 155 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: more guns is the answer to every one of these provocations. 156 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: So it's not like they're pro shooting. I think that's 157 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: a I think that's a misnomber that the Democrats get into. 158 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: But I will say that there's no provocation to which 159 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: the answer for many GOP voters and RA supporters isn't 160 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: isn't more guns? And so when they hear that there's 161 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: a mass shooting, the automatic responses, man, I wish I 162 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: would have had a weapon at that time. I would 163 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: have stopped this. And when they hear that there's any 164 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 1: kind of robbery or crime or anything like that, all 165 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: the stuff that the GOP amplifies, the answer isn't let's 166 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: make communities safer for everyone. It's I wish I wish 167 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: I had my gun that moment. So that's kind of 168 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: the ingrained logic, which of course is tied into logic 169 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 1: that is as old as this country that is very racialized, 170 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: that white Americans get to carry guns, that white that 171 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: guns are, you know, symbols of white protection. So there's 172 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: a whole history here going into it, and the question 173 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: is what do you what do you do about that? 174 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: Are you trying to reason with centrist gun owners? Are 175 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: you trying to just create laws that force them to 176 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: go along? Are you trying to fortify blue states? I 177 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: just think that the minute you start thinking like, what 178 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: really is the answer to what we're facing right now, 179 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: it's it's a bigger issue than it seems, even with 180 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: all these mess shootings. And I'm not trying to sound 181 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: like I'm talking around in circles. But as you can 182 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: hear from the way I'm talking about this, I've been 183 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: writing a book about this exact issue for the last 184 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: ten years now, and the diagnosis for me is very easy. 185 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: But the question of where we go in this country 186 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: is really complicated. Let me give you an example. One 187 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: of the main things we suggest as Democrats, right is 188 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: background checks. Right initially, we say background checks on all 189 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: gun purchases. That's one of the things that Biden just did. Well. 190 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: I agree we need background checks on all gun purchases. 191 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: They're way too many loopholes, but we already have four 192 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million guns in this country roughly, and 193 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: that's almost one hundred million more guns that we have people. 194 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: And so even if you implemented background checks right now 195 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 1: on every single gun purchase, which isn't going to happen, 196 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: you still have more guns than people. And so it 197 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: would take you three hundred years probably to get to 198 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: even that out in a way. And so the suggestions 199 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: that were I just feel like the suggestions that we're 200 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: positing honestly as Democrats, are way they under estimate the problem, 201 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: or do they under they're not answers to the problem 202 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: we're facing so right now we have watched it's mark 203 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: and there are over three hundred pieces of legislation that 204 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: have been rolled out to restrict drag performances or ban them, 205 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: to deny trans kids gender affirming care, to ban books, 206 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: to do all of these radical fascist ideas and bring 207 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: them into fruition in red states across this country, you know. 208 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: And their hope is that in twenty twenty four they'll 209 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: be able to nationalize their chrystal fascist beliefs. When I 210 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: look at how rapidly they're moving to target the LGBTQ community, 211 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: to target the Black community, to target the Jewish community, 212 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: there seems to be no guardrails on how quickly legislation 213 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: can get passed and be operationalized. The same thing has 214 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: happened with abortion. So we look to the president to 215 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: guide us right, and for so long we were taught 216 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: that the president is the most powerful person in all 217 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: the land. But it turns out that Ron De Santis 218 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: actually is. It turns out that Greg Abbott actually is. 219 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: It turns out that Sarah Huckaby Sanders actually is. These 220 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: are governors in right states. So again, when I think 221 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: about the core of the problem, it isn't just an 222 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: ideological one, Jonathan, or or values based one or lack thereof. 223 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: It's also the fact that Democrats have put all of 224 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: their eggs in the executive branch and none at the 225 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: state level. Can you speak to that, no, I mean, 226 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: that's my frustration. That's kind of the core argument of 227 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: my book is that. And let me just be clear, 228 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: part of what I'm showing is that guns are a 229 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: core aspect of the ideology and the movement that you've 230 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: just talked about. So it's no mistake that, for examples, 231 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: to Santist right now is overturning Florida's gun laws, right 232 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: Texas gun laws. Loose gun laws have propelled people like 233 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: Abbot to power. In Tennessee right now, they are overturning 234 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: every single gun law in Tennessee. We they just passed 235 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: a bill or are about too that anyone eighteen year 236 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: old and over can open kerry in public, an AK 237 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: forty seven or an AAR fifteen with no training, no 238 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: permit whatsoever. And so, in a way, guns are a 239 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: massive aspect of this issue. And I feel like it's 240 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: not just about executive I feel like for too long 241 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: Democrats have kind of told themselves, well, bad gun policies 242 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: are just a red state problem. They're just something happening 243 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: down there. But here in New York we have, you know, 244 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: tight gun laws, so we have much more public health. 245 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: And I think that was part of the lie that 246 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: Democrats told themselves, is that the country wasn't connected, that 247 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: the aims of this movement, which is symbolized by loose 248 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: gun laws and more public carried guns, was just going 249 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: to stay in the South, when when we're seeing with 250 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, for example, right now, or with the 251 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: judge in Texas right now overturning MIFFI pristone is that 252 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: this movement really has national implications and national designs. And 253 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: so I think we've woken up too late to the 254 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: fact that red state politicians, pro gun politicians were building 255 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: really an orc army in a certain kind of way, 256 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: like a kind of red state movement that really the 257 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: aim wasn't just to have bad gun policy in Tennessee, 258 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: it was to take over the country in the Supreme Court, 259 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: and so I certainly think that a much more ambitious 260 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: national response that starts with taking grassroots movements the way 261 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: I mean the Republicans de Santa started by taking over 262 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: the school boards and public health boards. Look what's happening 263 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: in Tennessee right now with city commissions and so playing 264 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: the game of investing in local politics is where the 265 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: Democrats have to start completely agree. You know, here's the thing, Jonathan, 266 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: and you know, I hate to be Debbie Downer, right, 267 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: this is a Downer conversation, right, which is that we're losing, yeah, right, 268 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: like I mean. And not only are we losing in 269 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: terms of policy, we're losing in the courts, We're losing 270 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: in the states. We're losing everywhere. And I posted this, 271 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: I joked on Mary Trump Show the other day. I 272 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: posted this very scientific poll on Twitter, and I asked 273 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: folks if they thought that they were going to see 274 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: the end of democracy in their lifetimes. And I'm assuming 275 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: that people are my age or older. And when the 276 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: poll came back after you know, twenty four hours, the 277 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: majority of people said yes, that they believed that democracy 278 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: will be done in their lifetime. And I'm not talking 279 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: about twenty thirty years from now. I'm actually talking about 280 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: you know, two, five, maybe ten at most. Tell me something, 281 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: is there a going backwards here to sense, to logic, 282 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: to shared values in morals and if there's not, then 283 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: what the fuck are we all doing? Do you know 284 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like in all honesty, because I people 285 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: ask me all the time, like we're losing. I need 286 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: to move right, You're telling me it doesn't really matter 287 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: if you move from Florida to New York, or Texas 288 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: to Washington, or you know, or Alabama to Oregon. It 289 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: doesn't fucking matter. You're not safe anywhere. So at this stage, 290 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: I'm just like, so, what the fuck are we all doing? 291 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: This is not sour grapes. Okay, it's a little sour grapes. 292 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: But the initial title of my book, which was rejected 293 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: by my publisher was how We Lost a Requiem for 294 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: Liberal America. That was my working title, and they said, 295 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 1: nobody's going to buy a book about losing, and we're 296 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: not losing anyway. All the publishers, of course, are in 297 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: New York. They don't see what I see in Tennessee. 298 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, we're actually losing. So I actually 299 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: showed them one of your tweets and I'm like, look, 300 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,479 Speaker 1: we're losing. People agree we're losing, but they don't. But 301 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: I think that we need to figure out like why 302 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: we lost, Like as I completely agree with you, And 303 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: the answer that I give about why we lost is 304 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: that this stuff that's happening in the country right now 305 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: that people in New York and Los Angeles and Honolulu 306 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: and other Democratic strongholds that are urban cities largely seats 307 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: of power, it's been happening in the South for a 308 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: long time. And I think that really what we needed 309 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: was a Southern strategy to say, hey, look, the whole 310 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,479 Speaker 1: country's connected, and we're going to aggressively intervene into the 311 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: South and really try to change the issue in the South. 312 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: What we did was we let a Republican power base 313 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: grow in the South in a way that then is 314 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: taking over the country. And so my answer for that 315 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: is we need to learn from first of all, from 316 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 1: the lessons of the past, Like what would it have 317 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: taken to win in my home state of Missouri when 318 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: the NRA took over the state, really or in Tennessee 319 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: when they rejected the affordable character to fight back against 320 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: that would be to fight on the ground of racial politics, 321 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: to fight on the ground of learning for local elections, 322 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: to instill science and common sense and other factors. But 323 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: we didn't do that. We kind of let the South go. 324 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,719 Speaker 1: We didn't have a kind of reverse Southern strategy. And 325 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: so I think that's what we're that's what we're seeing 326 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: right now where that's that's my read on it. And 327 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: so the question of our people going to wake up 328 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: right now, I guess I would just ask you, like, 329 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: which people are going to wake up right because people 330 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: in half the country have already been living under the 331 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,239 Speaker 1: regime that you're talking about for quite some time, and 332 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 1: it's led to more power for this agenda, not less 333 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: power for it. I mean, I guess my feeling is that, 334 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: by the way, would you would you buy a book 335 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: called How We Lost or Recoring for Liberal America because 336 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: you're my friends? Yeah, Okay, fine, Okay, I like the 337 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: new working title that you have that you don't want 338 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: to use. Okay, Okay, that's what I like. Okay, But 339 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: I think that we're at a time where we got 340 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: an actual war that is being waged through mass shootings 341 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: and lack of gun reform, and not even lack of 342 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: gun reform. Republicans aren't even in the lack of gun 343 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: reform type of place they're in the everyone gets a 344 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: gun as soon as you come out of the womb 345 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: type of place, right like, this is a hellscape. And 346 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: I see this getting drastically worse over the next two, five, ten, 347 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: twenty thirty years. I think that the first half of 348 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: my life, where things seem like they were going in 349 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: the right direction, every generation was afforded something better than 350 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 1: previous generations. That that's dead and gone. And I think 351 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: that a lot of Americans, more so than not, are 352 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: conscious right to that, which is why there's a war 353 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: on wokeness. They don't even know how to fucking define it, frankly, 354 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: but there's a war on wokeness because they prefer people 355 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: to be asleep and scared. So I guess the last 356 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: question for you is you know you've spent your entire 357 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: career trying to diagnose this problem. To me, your book 358 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: Dying of Whiteness did diagnose the problem. It's whiteness, it's 359 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 1: white supremacy, it's Christo fascism, it's you know, the belief 360 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: that so long if I'm doing bad is fine, so 361 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: long as the person down the street that's of color 362 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: is doing worse, then that's great, right, And the fact 363 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 1: that you can monetize that you can sell that you 364 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: can keep, you know, recreating these characters, these minions to 365 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: sell this bullshit. And I'm just wondering, like, do you 366 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: see hope in our future? Or do you just see 367 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: an increase in violence? How much time do I have 368 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: to answer that question, I mean, take all the time 369 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: you'd like, do I see hope? Well, let me ask 370 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: you really quickly, rights that, do you see hope in 371 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: our future? I am you know, some days, some days 372 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: I see hope in the future. I see that there 373 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: are more people that are conscious to inequity, to injustice, 374 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: to the lies of capitalism, to the indoctrination of patriotism. 375 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: I see hope in that. But do I think that 376 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to see change in my lifetime? No? Do 377 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: I think I'll see things get worse in my lifetime. Yeah, 378 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: we have a pretty big election coming up in a 379 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: little over a year here, year and a half here. 380 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: Um so, so I think despair is not helpful right now. 381 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: I certainly think that getting getting involved because I do 382 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: think I mean, we felt like this in the twenty election, 383 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: but oh my god, the stakes of the twenty twenty 384 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 1: four election are in many ways even greater because of 385 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: all this stuff that's happened since the Biden's election, and 386 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: so I think mobilizing, I mean, we basically have an 387 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: electoral fight for the future of our country coming up, 388 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: and maybe maybe we can talk about this next time, 389 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: like how do we how do we how do we 390 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: flip the things we're talking about into democratic strategy, which 391 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: I think is going to be the hard part. And 392 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: I do think the Democrats are really facing a really 393 00:25:54,359 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: hard question about really rerunning Biden, who's really old, or 394 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: or opening up. I mean that should have happened a 395 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: while ago. It looks like Biden's going to run again. 396 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,239 Speaker 1: But I do think that mobilizing, mobilizing Democratic voters right 397 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: now for these issues. In other words, there's there's a 398 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 1: place we can go with this frustration right now which 399 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: is actually tied to electoral politics, which may not be 400 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: the case in twenty twenty five, but it's the case 401 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: right now in twenty twenty three. And so I do 402 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: have hope that we will mobilize, that people will recognize 403 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: the stakes. I have just a shy ton of concern 404 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: about if Biden's going to be able to pull it off. Honestly, 405 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: right now, I hope he can. He's surprised me at 406 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: every level. But yes, he has, and I want people 407 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: to remember that that he has been. He has been, 408 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: and I've done it, you know, I did it on 409 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: this show multiple multiple, multiple times. I underestimated Joe Biden. 410 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: We continue to underestimate Joe Biden and he continues to 411 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: opp form. So, yes, is his age a thing, Sure 412 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: it is. But do I think that he was the 413 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: man for the job in twenty twenty after I said 414 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: that he wasn't even on my fucking lift, Yes, I do. Yeah, no, 415 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: And and honestly, if it's him, but I just think 416 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: that I think it's people that cannot be complacent and 417 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: think that the twenty four election is just going to 418 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: be a relitigation of the twenty twenty election. There's so 419 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: many factors that are so exponentially different right now. In 420 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, there was no stop to Steal movement. In 421 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Trump had just gotten on stage with COVID, 422 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: sweating profusely and shown embodied his mismanagement of the pandemic. 423 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: So there's so many factors that are going to be 424 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: different right now. It's a totally different campaign, and I 425 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: just think people need to realize that even though Biden 426 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: won in twenty twenty, the fight in twenty twenty four 427 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: is even more high stakes in a way, but also 428 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: a different fight. And so I think that there's a 429 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: place to go with this despair right now, and I 430 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: think questions of how to fight back, which is why 431 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 1: this show is sitting on a gold mine, as they 432 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: say on MSNBC advertisements, fighting back against this ludicrous anti 433 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: woke agenda where anything that happens you just call it woke. 434 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: But I think there are some strategies that are that 435 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: need to be formulated now because I think right now 436 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: there's an avenue to go with despair, which is not 437 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: going to be an option if we don't win. Yeah, 438 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Matzel, it is a pleasure to be back 439 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: in conversation with you. Friend. We will talk next week 440 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: and you know, see where we land. Then appreciate you. 441 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on Woke 442 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: A f as always power to the people and to 443 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.