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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Paul, Ay, Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going well. How's your week been been?

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Speaker 3: Okay, it's been good. This year has been such a

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Speaker 3: whirl wind, I think for both of us. I've, of course,

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Speaker 3: have been bouncing all over the country traveling, you know,

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Speaker 3: filming for TV. Had the book tour. You've also had

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Speaker 3: the book tour, right I have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you and I have met in London and in Colorado,

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Speaker 2: and then I just asked our producer to flag me

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Speaker 2: anytime you come.

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Speaker 1: To Texas because I never go to Colorado. So when

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Speaker 1: you come to Texas.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to drive wherever you are and you and

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Speaker 2: I can sit down and have some sparkling water or something.

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Speaker 3: Well, and don't forget Vegas. We briefly bumped into each

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Speaker 3: other in Vegas.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Vegas. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about you. I am not a huge

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Speaker 2: fan of traveling. It's just I don't like to be

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Speaker 2: away from my family. I like to be at home.

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Speaker 1: What about you?

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Speaker 3: For me, I when I travel, the fun part is

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Speaker 3: seeing different parts of the country. And then if I'm

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Speaker 3: doing something for a case, of course, that's what I

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Speaker 3: like to I need to get out, and so I

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Speaker 3: look forward to going out and seeing these things. But

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Speaker 3: the amount of traveling something I didn't realize until I

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Speaker 3: got into this. It is a surprisingly lonely existence. You

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Speaker 3: buy yourself on an airplane, you buy yourself at an airport,

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Speaker 3: you buy yourself at a hotel. It really is something

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Speaker 3: that can wear on you and then just a constant

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Speaker 3: living out of a suitcase. It's something that I enjoy

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Speaker 3: for a period of time, but then I want to

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Speaker 3: be home. I want to be in my jeep, I

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Speaker 3: want to be on the mountain. I definitely need to

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Speaker 3: have that break.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like that too.

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Speaker 2: I have tried to structure all of my tenfold seasons

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Speaker 2: around places where my family's willing to go. So we

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Speaker 2: have two seasons in Virginia and I taped both of

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Speaker 2: them while we were on a vacation a couple of

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Speaker 2: summers ago. I really just try to incorporate them as

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Speaker 2: much as I can. But the traveling that I enjoy

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Speaker 2: the most is through New England.

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Speaker 1: Have you been to New England before? No?

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Speaker 3: In fact, that's the one part of the country I

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Speaker 3: really have never been. I think the furthest north on

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Speaker 3: the East coast. I've been was up to Stanford, Connecticut.

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Speaker 3: Of course, I've seen the online photos and it just

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Speaker 3: looks gorgeous and all the history. I've just never had

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Speaker 3: a reason to be up there.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: One of the things I've mentioned to you is my

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Speaker 2: love of history, and particularly of the time period and

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Speaker 2: the seventeen hundreds around the American Revolutionary War. And I

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Speaker 2: went to school at Boston University, and I specifically went

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Speaker 2: there not because it's a great school. It is a

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Speaker 2: wonderful school, but because I loved Boston. I was enamored

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Speaker 2: as a teenager with Boston and all of the history

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Speaker 2: there because of that time period. So I am super

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Speaker 2: excited about this story that we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: because it's set in New England during the Revolutionary War

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Speaker 2: time period and involved some politics.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that I keep.

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Speaker 2: Hammering home to you that I know you know now,

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Speaker 2: which is number one. You'll get to know these people

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Speaker 2: from a couple of hundred years ago, and actually you'll

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Speaker 2: care about what the outcome is because we'll understand their

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Speaker 2: personalities a little bit. And really it's because all of

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Speaker 2: these themes in crime just keep coming up over and

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Speaker 2: over again, and you will recognize this theme, I'm sure

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Speaker 2: very quickly when we talk about this story. So I

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Speaker 2: think by the end of this you're going to say,

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Speaker 2: I'm ready to take that trip. You've got to go

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Speaker 2: to New England. It's just such a one. It's an

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Speaker 2: electric place for me.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, over the summer, I was out in Washington,

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Speaker 3: d C. Taking my younger set of kids to some

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Speaker 3: of the historic sites, including the American History Museum and

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Speaker 3: then down to Mount Vernon and so, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: been a long time since I've studied the American Revolution

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Speaker 3: in school, and so it was a good refresher to

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Speaker 3: actually go through the museum and go, oh yeah, I

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Speaker 3: remember this, or you know, find out George Washington's role.

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Speaker 3: So I'm very interested to hearing this case and the

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Speaker 3: history behind.

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Speaker 2: It well, and I will tell you this is from

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Speaker 2: seventeen seventy eight, and it is not going to be

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Speaker 2: the oldest case we do.

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Speaker 1: We're going to go pretty far back.

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Speaker 2: And I love these characters because they're put into situations

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Speaker 2: that I just could never imagine being put into, and

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Speaker 2: I'll flag those as we get closer.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to keep this a little bit of a mystery.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that the killers are going to be

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Speaker 2: a mystery, but really the way that this story unfolds

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Speaker 2: is so interesting to me, and the way that they

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Speaker 2: handled politics in the seventeen hundred.

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Speaker 1: So let's just jump into it.

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Speaker 2: Let's set the scene, and then I will ask you

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Speaker 2: again at the end. Does this convince you, Paul Hols

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Speaker 2: to go visit New England? So I said before seventeen

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Speaker 2: seventy eight Massachusetts, but this starts actually a few years

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Speaker 2: before that. And this is a woman with a very

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Speaker 2: interesting name, Bathsheba. It is a very old name, and

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Speaker 2: I had never heard of it. Even with all the

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Speaker 2: research I've done, I've never heard of anybody named Bethsheba.

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Speaker 2: So this is about a woman named Bathsheba Ruggles Spooner,

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Speaker 2: and she was born in seventeen forty six in Sandwich, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: And the reason that I think probably the name is significant,

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Speaker 2: and the reason why this story in some ways is

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Speaker 2: significant is what researchers found later on about this story,

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Speaker 2: which was that the significance of the politics was very,

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Speaker 2: very important in this time period. So Revolutionary War, we

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Speaker 2: have the patriots versus the loyalists. So let's just talk

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Speaker 2: about the Beshiba and her upbringing. She was born to

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Speaker 2: a man named Timothy Ruggles, who was a really well

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Speaker 2: known figure in New England leading up to the American

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Speaker 2: Revolutionary War. And I had read about Timothy Ruggles, so

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Speaker 2: I remember reading about him in high school when I

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Speaker 2: was studying American history. He was a brigadier general, a judge,

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Speaker 2: Speaker of the House, really really powerful man. So but

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Speaker 2: Sheiba grew up kind of with a luxurious upbringing.

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Speaker 1: She was very well educated.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the way that she's described is is beautiful.

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Speaker 2: We don't have photographs, paintings and sketches, but just someone

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Speaker 2: who seemed to have certainly a certain amount of entire, idle,

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Speaker 2: mean and wealth because of her father. And the politics

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Speaker 2: behind this is really important. Ruggles was a loyalist, which

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Speaker 2: meant he supported the Crown. He wasn't a patriot, and

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Speaker 2: he was very outspoken and obviously, you know, before the

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Speaker 2: war he was really a part of.

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Speaker 1: The government in New England.

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Speaker 2: And these are the people, just as a reminder, who

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Speaker 2: wanted the English to stay in power.

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Speaker 1: They didn't want to be independent.

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Speaker 2: And you know, as the war is really gearing up,

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Speaker 2: people are being very vocal, and Timothy Ruggles was one

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Speaker 2: of those vocal people.

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Speaker 3: Would Timothy have been born over in England or born

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Speaker 3: here in North America?

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Speaker 2: He was actually born in Massachusetts. Oh yeah, Timothy Ruggles

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Speaker 2: was born in Massachusetts. And Timothy Ruggles was someone who

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Speaker 2: really was proud of his heritage, proud to represent the Crown,

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Speaker 2: and very outspoken. I don't think with Sheba, his daughter

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Speaker 2: was particularly political, but she was ready to get out

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Speaker 2: of the house. And she married a man named Joshua Spooner.

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Speaker 1: This is going to seem very familiar.

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Speaker 2: Spooner came from a very good family he owned a

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Speaker 2: decent amount of land, so this was something that would

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Speaker 2: have been common.

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Speaker 1: It's suspected that this was.

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Speaker 2: An arranged marriage, which you know, in the eighteenth century

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Speaker 2: and also in the nineteenth century, arranged marriages were not

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Speaker 2: between a couple. It was between two families who were

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Speaker 2: making an agreement to kind of consolidate their land and

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Speaker 2: consolidate their wealth with this young couple. So Ba Sheba

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Speaker 2: married Joshua Spooner, and I will say this is often

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Speaker 2: a recipe for disaster, particularly in the seventeen hundreds, where

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Speaker 2: women had very little rights and they were essentially, you know,

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Speaker 2: given over to a young man who had a family

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Speaker 2: with a high reputation. This did not please a lot

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Speaker 2: of the women, and so you could see already where

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Speaker 2: this is heading that this is going to be problematic

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Speaker 2: this marriage.

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Speaker 3: And I think from my perspective, you think about out

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Speaker 3: a relationship that forms between two people and there's an

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Speaker 3: emotional attachment prior to the commitment to marriage. Here there

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Speaker 3: is no emotional attachment. It is literally this is what's

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Speaker 3: going to happen because of the property and the financial

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Speaker 3: benefits to both families. So that plays a part. When

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Speaker 3: I started assessing the modive moving forward. How these people

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Speaker 3: were forced together could provide insight in terms of what

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Speaker 3: ultimately happens.

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Speaker 2: And I think that there are historians that theorize that

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Speaker 2: Timothy Ruggles did this also as a political move, not

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Speaker 2: just monetary, because of the approaching war, not knowing how

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Speaker 2: this was going to turn out. The safety of being

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Speaker 2: a part of another family as affluent as the Spooners

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Speaker 2: would have been good for him. There's also the very

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Speaker 2: slight possibility that Sheeba and Joshua Spooner were actually in love.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say that's doubtful as we move forward,

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Speaker 2: but you never know. She was twenty, so she's awfully young.

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Speaker 2: Twenty though in the seventeen hundreds was about the right

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Speaker 2: marrying age and maybe actually a little older than some

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Speaker 2: other women would have been married.

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Speaker 3: How old would Joshua have been at the time.

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Speaker 2: Thirty seven, So she was twenty when they married and

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Speaker 2: he was thirty seven when they married.

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Speaker 1: Big age difference.

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Speaker 2: I think twenty to thirty seven this would not have

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Speaker 2: been unusual in the seventeen hundreds. That actually he being

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Speaker 2: twice the age would not have been particularly unusual either.

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Speaker 3: No, but you know, I think there's still that difference

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Speaker 3: in terms of life experience at that point, and particularly

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Speaker 3: in the seventeen hundreds, you know, where life expectancy for

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Speaker 3: you know, the men was much shorter than what it

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Speaker 3: is today. For me, that's that is a startling age

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Speaker 3: difference in terms of assessing their relationship.

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Speaker 2: And I think as we move forward we'll see the

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Speaker 2: cracking of their relationship a little bit. And again I'm

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Speaker 2: still trying to preserve the mystery about who the victim

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Speaker 2: is and who the killer is. So Bashiba and Joshua

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Speaker 2: actually live in a comfortable life. They come both of

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Speaker 2: them from affluent families, and joshua family was farmers. They

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Speaker 2: had a lot of agriculture, and in the seventeen hundreds,

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Speaker 2: farming and agriculture were very, very profitable, particularly in the

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Speaker 2: south where I've done some work in Virginia, there were

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Speaker 2: tobacco fields everywhere, and you know, in the north they

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Speaker 2: had not quite built the factories in the mills. So

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Speaker 2: agriculture really was where the money was, owning the land.

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Speaker 2: It did make you cash poor. You didn't have a

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Speaker 2: lot of cash on hand, which got a lot of

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Speaker 2: people in trouble. In the aristocracy, they couldn't pay debts

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Speaker 2: because everything was tied up in their land. But regardless,

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Speaker 2: the Sheba and Joshua lived a comfortable life. They were

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Speaker 2: in Brookfield, Massachusetts. They had four children, living in a

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Speaker 2: nice two story house. Everything seems to be going well.

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Speaker 2: The father, Tomothy Ruggles, is happy as we're approaching the war.

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Speaker 2: This is seventeen sixty six, when they're married and they

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Speaker 2: have these children. It seems like they were unhappy behind

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Speaker 2: closed doors relatively soon after their marriage, which is why

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Speaker 2: I doubt the whole they were actually in love theory.

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Speaker 2: I think this does sound like an arranged marriage, and

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Speaker 2: it seems very acrimonious from the start. Some allegations of

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Speaker 2: abuse Joshua to with Sheba. Lots of yelling, lots of disagreements.

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Speaker 2: She sounds very spirited, meaning she wasn't putting up with this.

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Speaker 2: She was not going to be a complacent wife, probably

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Speaker 2: partially because of how she was raised, with a lot

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Speaker 2: of affluence and maybe some entitlement.

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Speaker 1: She really stood up for herself.

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Speaker 2: Joshua seemed like a cad I guess would be the

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Speaker 2: old term for it.

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Speaker 3: Well, and you throw four kids into this mix. Children

248
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Speaker 3: definitely add a level of stress into any relationship. I

249
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Speaker 3: imagine these kids were probably very close in age.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was one after the other.

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Speaker 2: And they were married in sixty six, and all of

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Speaker 2: this release starts to happen in seventy seven. Can you

253
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Speaker 2: imagine having four children. I mean, let's assume they immediately

254
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Speaker 2: started having kids, four children in an eleven year span.

255
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Speaker 2: I'm sure it was very overwhelming. But they probably also

256
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Speaker 2: had domestic servants.

257
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Speaker 3: Oh sure, Yeah, that makes sense.

258
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Speaker 2: But still screaming kids, you know, and all of that

259
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Speaker 2: doesn't help.

260
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Speaker 1: Sounds like he was a big drinker.

261
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Speaker 2: Alcohol in the mix is not going to be helpful,

262
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Speaker 2: of course. But it's interesting to think that these people,

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Speaker 2: with all of the money and all of the opportunity

264
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Speaker 2: that they have, are still struggling to have a relationship

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Speaker 2: that's going to work, when on paper, they probably should

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Speaker 2: have a good marriage.

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Speaker 1: You know, everything lines up.

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Speaker 2: They're from the same socioeconomic background, same politics, so it

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Speaker 2: seems like a personality difference and abuse on top of

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Speaker 2: that at the same time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you also have two people who were potentially

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Speaker 3: just forced together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so now they're trying to live a life

275
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Speaker 3: that neither one.

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Speaker 2: Of them wants, and now we're going to introduce a

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Speaker 2: third person into this relationship, and this does not go

278
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Speaker 2: very well.

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Speaker 3: This is where things get spicy there.

280
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Speaker 2: This is where things get spicy in a way that

281
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Speaker 2: let's just remember the time period. We have a sixteen

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Speaker 2: year old young man who is a sold who comes

283
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Speaker 2: through in seventeen seventy seven and he is coming from

284
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Speaker 2: a hospital camp in New York to his home in Ipswich, Massachusetts.

285
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Speaker 1: So listen to this.

286
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Speaker 2: This young man, Ezrael Ross, was on a two hundred

287
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Speaker 2: and forty mile journey by foot during the war. Could

288
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Speaker 2: you pull that off? Two hundred and forty miles by foot?

289
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Speaker 3: I couldn't pull it off. And imagine what he must

290
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:29,160
Speaker 3: be caring on his back.

291
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Speaker 1: Yep, Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you're right.

292
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Speaker 2: I'm sure tons of provisions and weapons and everything else

293
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,280
Speaker 2: you could think of sixteen years old, and he was

294
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Speaker 2: pulled into the war. So we have the war breaking out.

295
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Speaker 2: This young man is kind of broken down himself. He's

296
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Speaker 2: incredibly weak, which I think is an understatement. In poor health.

297
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Speaker 2: He had just finished a campaign in the Continental Army,

298
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Speaker 2: which would be the Patriots. So the people who are

299
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Speaker 2: vying for independence, and he is walking by the Spooner

300
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Speaker 2: house on this long journey, but Sheba spots him and

301
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Speaker 2: she beckons him in and nurses him back to health.

302
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,840
Speaker 2: So this is some sort of an omen or something.

303
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,520
Speaker 2: It's sixteen year old young man who has just come

304
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Speaker 2: out of a hellish war battle and he enters the

305
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,200
Speaker 2: home of a woman who is thirty one years old.

306
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Speaker 2: But Sheba's thirty one, he's sixteen. And I would say,

307
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Speaker 2: what's interesting about this dynamic here is Joshua knew him.

308
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Speaker 2: Joshua Spooner, the husband knew him just from being around

309
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Speaker 2: because he lived in Massachusetts. And I guess they had

310
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Speaker 2: seen each other as a family friend and invited him

311
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Speaker 2: in the house and said to Basheba, go ahead and.

312
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Speaker 1: Nurse him back to health.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so listen, let me tell you something that I

314
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,120
Speaker 2: did not really realize about the seventeen hundreds and the

315
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,880
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds until I started talking to more family members.

316
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Speaker 2: This was so common, inviting perfect strangers into your home,

317
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Speaker 2: giving them all the food that you had. It was

318
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Speaker 2: just part of being part of a community, particularly during

319
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Speaker 2: a war. It was surprising to me, but this is

320
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Speaker 2: what happened all the time. Particularly in the seventeen hundreds

321
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Speaker 2: and the eighteen hundreds.

322
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Speaker 3: So Basheba is nursing the sixteen year old man back

323
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Speaker 3: to health. She has her four kids. Her oldest kid

324
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Speaker 3: is is he do we know, like ten eleven years old?

325
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Speaker 1: Yeah? No, older than ten for sure.

326
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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, because I was just thinking she as a mom,

327
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Speaker 3: has a child that's probably not much younger than Ezra.

328
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Speaker 1: Correct.

329
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Speaker 2: Okay, the oldest that their child could be could be,

330
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Speaker 2: you know, eleven years old. Because again, things start to

331
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Speaker 2: happen here in a year or two.

332
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Speaker 1: So I think though that.

333
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Speaker 2: Being in the army and being in battle most likely

334
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Speaker 2: has weathered him.

335
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Speaker 1: Certainly it has matured him.

336
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Speaker 2: And I don't know how she views him at this point,

337
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,480
Speaker 2: but Ezra sounds just grateful to have someone taking care

338
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,560
Speaker 2: of him. She nurses him back to health and he

339
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Speaker 2: goes back home.

340
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Speaker 1: He is then told he needs to go back to

341
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Speaker 1: the front lines. Guy.

342
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 2: He goes back, and every time he keeps going back

343
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Speaker 2: and forth between New York, where he's supposed to report to,

344
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,359
Speaker 2: and Massachusetts. He stops at the Spooner home and he

345
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:16,160
Speaker 2: creates a friendship with Joshua Spooner and with Bsheba, and

346
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,320
Speaker 2: he grows closer and closer, and then he makes visits

347
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Speaker 2: when he's not in.

348
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Speaker 1: Battle, when he's sort of off duty.

349
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Speaker 2: So he's creating this, you know, relationship with this couple

350
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Speaker 2: that seems very supportive at the start. But I would

351
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Speaker 2: guess this is I don't know why Joshua thinks this

352
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,160
Speaker 2: is a good idea or not. Maybe he doesn't suspect

353
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Speaker 2: that Bsheba would fancy a sixteen year old man. Maybe

354
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Speaker 2: he just had a certain feeling about the character of Ezra,

355
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Speaker 2: but he does not oppose. As we're spending the night

356
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Speaker 2: at the house, doesn't this seem like a mistake.

357
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Speaker 3: So obviously, you know, things start to happen between Ezra

358
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Speaker 3: and Bsheba right.

359
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:00,879
Speaker 1: Right, and Joshua.

360
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,560
Speaker 2: This does not help his relationship with his wife Joshua,

361
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 2: but she but continue to have a bad relationship.

362
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Speaker 1: He still drinks a lot.

363
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,200
Speaker 2: And Ezra and Basheba actually they begin to have a

364
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:16,359
Speaker 2: physical relationship, and unsurprisingly, but Sheeba gets pregnant. She says,

365
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 2: she says she's pregnant, And I'm going to put a

366
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,600
Speaker 2: little question mark on that because this plays into the

367
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 2: story later on in January of seventeen seventy eight, she

368
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:30,240
Speaker 2: is pregnant, and she realizes this, I'm assuming when she

369
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,000
Speaker 2: misses her minstrel cycle. I can't imagine there's really any

370
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 2: other way that she would know in that time period.

371
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,240
Speaker 2: So she realizes that she's pregnant, and she is not

372
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,520
Speaker 2: acknowledging really who the father is. But we're going to

373
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,560
Speaker 2: assume that her claim is that it was her husband's,

374
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 2: but it doesn't sound like they were sleeping together at

375
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Speaker 2: the time, so we're also assuming it was really Ezra's baby.

376
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,439
Speaker 3: Okay, cause she's at this point, this relationship between her

377
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,359
Speaker 3: and Joshua, it's on the outs. They're not having a

378
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 3: sexual relationship, right, Well, you've got Ezra coming over, by

379
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,160
Speaker 3: his own admission, him and Bathsheba are having a sexual relationship,

380
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,439
Speaker 3: So it's entirely possible Ezra is the father of this child.

381
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there had been rumors that Basheba was having

382
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,399
Speaker 2: affairs with other people, nothing substantiated, but one of the

383
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,880
Speaker 2: friends of Bosheba had quoted her as saying she had

384
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,439
Speaker 2: an utter aversion to her husband, which is a very

385
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,560
Speaker 2: polite way of saying, yeah, we have no physical relationship

386
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 2: at all. So she realized that she's pregnant in January

387
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 2: of seventeen seventy eight, and I can't imagine doesn't cause

388
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 2: panic with Bathsheba. Because of the society they were in.

389
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 2: To get a divorce in the seventeen hundreds, women almost

390
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 2: never initiated them. It was literally an act of the

391
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 2: legislature to be able to achieve a divorce. So what

392
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,320
Speaker 2: frequently happened was if the two people agreed that they

393
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,640
Speaker 2: didn't want to be married anymore, they just live separate lives.

394
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 2: And that was not what was going to happen in

395
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,680
Speaker 2: this case. So she's pregnant, she's pan and she realizes

396
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 2: that this is going to be problematic.

397
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:05,400
Speaker 1: That's a bad setup.

398
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,440
Speaker 3: It is. And the way that I'm thinking about this

399
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,840
Speaker 3: is her panic has got to be because of Joshua.

400
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 3: If her and Joshua, let's say we're having sexual relations

401
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 3: in the months prior to her fighting out that she's pregnant,

402
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 3: she during this timeframe could easily convince him it's his child.

403
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 3: The fact that she's panicking tells me they weren't having

404
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 3: sexual relations, and so when it does come out, it

405
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 3: becomes obvious she's pregnant. Joshua's going to go I know

406
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 3: it's not mine. Yeah, oh for sure.

407
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 2: And just to put in context, in colonial America, when

408
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 2: a woman was found to be an adulterous, whether it

409
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 2: was true or not, she would be stripped down to

410
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 2: her waist and publicly whipped.

411
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,439
Speaker 1: So she has a legitimate reason to panic.

412
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 2: And Ezra is now panicking also, So this is problematic,

413
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 2: and they don't think there's any other way out except

414
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 2: to kill Joshua Spooner, so they begin to plot to

415
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 2: kill him.

416
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 3: Okay, so we have a little conspiracy going on.

417
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 2: We do not so little, because they start to expand

418
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: it pretty soon. So this is where I need your

419
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 2: input because I don't understand the way people think sometimes,

420
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 2: so they brainstorm. And we've talked about how people used

421
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 2: poisons much more often in the seventeen hundreds, particularly in

422
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,919
Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds when they became more commonplace. But in

423
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,879
Speaker 2: the seventeen hundreds they also used poison to kill people.

424
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 2: Ezra and Basheba believe that this is the most efficient

425
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 2: way to kill Joshua. I don't think Ezra felt confident

426
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 2: enough to attack him. I'm not sure they could figure

427
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 2: out a plot where it would seem like an accident

428
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 2: or anything. So they think they're going to poison him,

429
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 2: which would not have been uncommon. So Ezra goes out

430
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 2: and buy something called aquafortis, which is a very old

431
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 2: term for nitric acid.

432
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 1: And let me tell you what they used.

433
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 2: Aquafortis in the seventeen hundreds for. It was a liquid

434
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 2: that they would use to dissolve maybe rust, or dissolve

435
00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 2: down parts of silver.

436
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 1: So this was very acidic.

437
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 2: So tell me about nitric acid and how would you

438
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 2: ever use it to kill someone?

439
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 3: Well, ye know, nitric acid is it's a very powerful acid.

440
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 3: You have your nitric acid, hydrochloric acid, these really strong

441
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,919
Speaker 3: acids that each has their own properties. I've used nitric

442
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 3: acid in the lab. It's something that you do not

443
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 3: want to get onto your skin. It burns, it's got

444
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 3: a very strong smell to it. It almost has from

445
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 3: my recollection and it's been decades now, but there's almost

446
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 3: a syrupy component to it. It's almost thicker than water.

447
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 3: But it is a very strong acid. So they're planning

448
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 3: on trying to poison with nitric acid.

449
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, I'm assuming it's going to taste better when

450
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,719
Speaker 2: you taste it was that a good assumption. If you

451
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 2: were actually going to taste it, it would taste terrible.

452
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 1: You need something to cover.

453
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 3: It up, right well, you know, of course, you can

454
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 3: dilute down acids. We drink acid all the time. You

455
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 3: think about you know, some of the Sodus that we're drinking,

456
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 3: they can be quite acidic. So I'm wondering if nitric

457
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 3: acid has some toxic component to it that if taken

458
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 3: over time, it would poison Joshua. But if it is

459
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 3: given to Joshua with any level of strength, he's going

460
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 3: to know it immediately. This is not going to be

461
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 3: something that you know, you can just ingest and not

462
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 3: feel the ramifications right away.

463
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think at least Ezra and Bathsheba are

464
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 2: smart enough to know that they're going to have to

465
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: put this in something that's going to be covered up,

466
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 2: so you know, he's not going to be able to

467
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 2: detect that there's.

468
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: Any poison in it.

469
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 2: So they choose Grog, which I love a good story

470
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 2: involving grog. Grog, I know, I know, it feels like Beowulf,

471
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 2: which was one of my favorite books.

472
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: Beowah.

473
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 3: It sounded like something out of Harry Potter.

474
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 1: To me, So grog is real.

475
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 2: I don't know if anybody in the audience has had grog,

476
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 2: but it varies. I mean I had always associated grog

477
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 2: with a beer, you know, old fashioned term for beer,

478
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: but it does vary. I looked up a Navy Royal

479
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: Navy grog.

480
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: Recipe just for you, Paul Holes.

481
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 2: So it is water, dark rum, lemon juice and cinnamon

482
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 2: and this was from the Caribbean. This is what the

483
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: Navy folks would bring in and from the Caribbean and drink.

484
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: But it varies.

485
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: Very strong drinks to sort of a real simple beer.

486
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 2: So something that is alcoholic with a very strong taste.

487
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: That Ezra and but Sheba are just crossing their fingers

488
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 2: that this is going to cover up the taste of

489
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 2: the nitric acid.

490
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 3: That grog doesn't sound too bad. Yeah, the dark rum

491
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: with cinnamon.

492
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: It ain't whiskey.

493
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, but now that you know what that drink

494
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 2: could have potentially been something stort or you can even

495
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 2: think of mold wine, something very strong, something that would

496
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: be acidic. Yeah, I still don't know if it's going

497
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: to be enough to cover up that nitric acid taste,

498
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: depending on how much they put in.

499
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 3: That's really going to be the question. So did they

500
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 3: test it out? Did they sample it before they gave

501
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 3: it to Joshua. I mean, I've got a case in

502
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 3: which a poisoner ended up making a poison chocolate turtles

503
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 3: with cyanide and actually tried to poison the pet cat

504
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 3: as a test. But that's sometimes what you will see

505
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 3: these poisoners do is if they're thinking, okay, we have

506
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 3: to somehow disguise the taste. Yeah, they'll make up their

507
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 3: concoction and then test it themselves say okay, that's passable.

508
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 3: I can't detect that there's something wrong with this. You know,

509
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 3: they won't obviously jest a lot. And so I'm wondering,

510
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 3: did they make up a grog nitric acid mixture and

511
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 3: then just do a quick sample of it and go, Okay,

512
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 3: he'll be fooled.

513
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: I don't believe they did, because what they did did

514
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 2: not work. Joshua took one sip and spewed it all

515
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 2: over the place and said, this tastes off. So I

516
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 2: don't think a trial run was in the cards for

517
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: Ezra and Basheba. This is what happens when you put

518
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 2: a sixteen year old in charge of poisoning your husband

519
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 2: because it was his idea. This is why I say

520
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 2: over and over again, if you are going to poison someone,

521
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: you have to be educated about it because you if

522
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 2: you don't do enough of it, you make them sick

523
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: and suspicious. If there's too much, it's going to pop

524
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 2: up with an autopsic. Even in the seventeen hundreds, they

525
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: would have been able to spot something off with certain poisons,

526
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 2: certainly something like cyanide.

527
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 3: No, for sure, there's obvious visual clues with certain types

528
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 3: of poisons, whether it be cyanide or carbon monoxide poisoning.

529
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 3: You know, it becomes very obvious once you open a

530
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 3: body up. But this really does underscore that, you know,

531
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 3: many people get into this idea of homicide, but they

532
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 3: have no experience. Yeah, they make mistakes, and here in

533
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 3: the seventeen hundreds, it's not like they're watching a TV

534
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 3: show CSI and even getting you know, feedback on that.

535
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 3: They're left to their own devices, I'm sure on how

536
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 3: to go about to get rid of Joshua, and.

537
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: They start getting frustrated because we are on a time

538
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 2: clock here. If you remember she's pregnant, this happens, I

539
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 2: would say about a month after she discovers she's pregnant.

540
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 2: So let's say she's maybe two months pregnant at this point,

541
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: and she probably is panicking.

542
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: She's had four.

543
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: Children, she knows when she's going to start showing, and

544
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 2: I think that time is of the essence for the

545
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 2: two of them, and so they keep brainstorming. Joshua does

546
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 2: not seem alarmed by what happened. I'm assuming things go

547
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 2: bad food wise and drink wise all the time in

548
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 2: the seventeen hundreds. If it's not preserved, well, he's probably

549
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 2: been sickened before.

550
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: He probably had a bad taste in.

551
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: His mouth and just blew it off because he didn't

552
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: seem alarmed.

553
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, this grog probably has a kin of alcohol concentration.

554
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 3: It's not going to go bad due to you know,

555
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: bacterial contamination. But for sure, I could see where it

556
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 3: would be easy for Joshua just to assume that this grog,

557
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 3: for whatever reason was was bad and not to have

558
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 3: any suspicion that somebody was trying to often at that moment.

559
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: As the sheiba continues on, and you know, she says.

560
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: I'm pregnant and I'm getting desperate here she has more

561
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: and more erratic behavior. She's really upset. Her husband continues

562
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: to be abusive. Ezra is still there, off and on,

563
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: and they say that this needs to happen. Soon, something

564
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: fortuitous happens. The war is still raging, which is not

565
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: the fortuitous part. But the war is still raging, which

566
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: means there are soldiers dragging themselves out of battle all

567
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 2: the time. And in Massachusetts where they're living in Brookfield,

568
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: they meet two deserters from the British Army, from the Loyalists.

569
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: And this is James Buchanan, who is a sergeant, and

570
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 2: a private named William Brooks. So i'll just call them

571
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: Buchanan and Brooks, and this is just again common. They

572
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: pay to stay at the Spooner home. Joshua Spooner seems

573
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: like he's fine with it. So you've got these two

574
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 2: loyalists who are fighting on behalf of the British Army.

575
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: You've got Basheba, who is the daughter of somebody very affluent,

576
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: an affluent loyalist, and so now they're coming together and

577
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: Brooks and Buchanan say almost immediately, she is saying that

578
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: she wants to kill her husband. And Ezra has said,

579
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: forget this I'm out of this. I don't want to

580
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: have anything to do with it. He chickens out. He

581
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: doesn't want to do anything else. So she realizes she

582
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: needs to bring in some freelancers, essentially, and these two

583
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: men seem to fit the ticket. And she says, I

584
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 2: will give you money to kill my husband because the

585
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: poisoning attempt didn't happen. I still am confused by people

586
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: who hire other people and don't think that they're going

587
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: to get caught.

588
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: Isn't that the rule? The more people you involve, the

589
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: higher the chances is you're going to get caught.

590
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's something that investigatively we're always looking for.

591
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what's interesting though about the seventeen hundreds.

592
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: It probably was very difficult to find a way to

593
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: catch hitman because think about it, you're not tracing phone calls,

594
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: you're not checking bank accounts. These are two people who

595
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: were wandering in and wandering out in the middle of

596
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: a war. So if they indeed do follow through with

597
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: this plot to kill Joshua's spooner, they are gone in

598
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: the wind very quickly, if they can just keep their

599
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 2: mouths shut, do you not?

600
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: Is Ezra aware of Buchanan and Brooks being at the house.

601
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: Yes, and he's all for it because he doesn't want

602
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: to do it himself.

603
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: He has done with this. He thinks that this will

604
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: be the solution.

605
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 2: He's happy to be involved in a way where he's

606
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: not the one plotting it and he's not the one

607
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 2: that has to fully execute it.

608
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: He needs partners.

609
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: So Bashiba uses her money and power that she has

610
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: to offer these two men a huge sum one thousand

611
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 2: dollars which in seventeen seventy eight is thirty thousand dollars

612
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: to kill her husband, as well as Joshua's watch, his belt, buckles,

613
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: his clothes, all to murder the husband. So, okay, I

614
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: get the money, but I have done cases. Burke and

615
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 2: Hare is a really good example of a case where

616
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: you have serial killers who are killing all of these

617
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: people and then taking the clothing of the victims. Which

618
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 2: wouldn't be a problem if they would go a couple

619
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: of towns over and sell the clothing, But when you

620
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: give them to people and all of a sudden, these

621
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: folks who have gone missing or wearing the clothing of

622
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: these missing people, then it's a problem.

623
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, Basically they're passing evidence of the homicide around and

624
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 3: eventually that's going to get back to the investigators.

625
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: So what Basheba says is she says, I have a plan.

626
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: Once Buchanan and Brooks agrees, she says, what I think

627
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: you should do is kill him, however way you think.

628
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: Is the most efficient.

629
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 2: Beat him to death is what her suggestion was, and

630
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: then drop him down a well. As a sign of

631
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: the times, I guess it was dangerous in the middle

632
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: of the night to go out and get water out

633
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: of a well because if you tripped and fell, boy,

634
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: you would just go to the bottom. She said, easy, man,

635
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: this is what happens all the time. Let's just make

636
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 2: that happen.

637
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 3: On the surface. Not a bad plan. You know, the

638
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: beating could replicate the types of injuries blunt force trauma

639
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 3: that you know, the fall down the well would have

640
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: if they do it right. But you know, oftentimes things

641
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 3: go wrong because the victim fights back.

642
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: And remember Joshua was a big drinker, so nobody would

643
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 2: be surprised if he were drunk in the middle of

644
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: the night going out to get water or not, just

645
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 2: walking by a well and tripping and falling down. So

646
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: it'll be interesting when you hear about the injuries. So

647
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: Joshua does what he had always done.

648
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: He goes out. He goes drinking with friends at a tavern.

649
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: It's March, it's.

650
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: Cold outside, it's fairly late, around nine o'clock, it's still

651
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: dark outside. And he comes home and he's holding a

652
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: lantern in one hand, so one hand is occupied, and

653
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: he's walking through the dark. And I often say this phrase,

654
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: there's no other lighting in the seventeen or eighteen hundreds,

655
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: usually accept starlight and moonlight. And he's walking with this

656
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: spoil lantern, walking home from the tavern, and he's got

657
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: this dark pathway he's trying to navigate, and he is

658
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: ambushed by Buchanan and Brooks and Ezra. Ezra feels safe

659
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 2: enough with two other men for all three of these

660
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: people to jump him.

661
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: So he is jumped.

662
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: He has one hand occupied, he's trying to drop the lantern.

663
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 2: They are all beating him severely, and then one person

664
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: is strangling him until he's dead. So I already know

665
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: what you're going to say. There's marks on him, so

666
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: if they do find the body, you'll at least see

667
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: strangulation marks, and that this wasn't an accident, right.

668
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: See, you know, it's not so much the marks left

669
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 3: from the strangulation, so there most certainly could be that

670
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: it's more of what happens internally to the body. If

671
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: they were sophisticated enough to understand what happens during a

672
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 3: strangulation when the blood vessels in the neck are compressed. Initially,

673
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 3: the jugular veins are going to be compressed, but the

674
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 3: arteries are still open. The heart's pumping, and now you

675
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 3: have arterial blood that's still flowing up into the brain

676
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 3: into the head area. But because the primary blood vessels

677
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 3: that allow the head to drain are closed off, you

678
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: get this big pressure build up and so now you

679
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 3: get the small blood vessels bursting. This is where you

680
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 3: see the Petiki eye in the eyes. It looks like

681
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 3: bright red just points in the whites of the eyes.

682
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 3: You can see this sometimes in the oral cavity and

683
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 3: the lips. You can even see it internally in the heart,

684
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 3: and so at autopsy, even without seeing marks on the

685
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 3: neck externally of strangulation, the eyes will give away the

686
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 3: possibility that strangulation.

687
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: Occurred, and there's no other way that would have happened.

688
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: I guess I wonder if a medical examiner would have

689
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 2: known that in the seventeen hundreds, if there's no other

690
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: way to replicate that.

691
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 3: That would be a i think a diagnostic feature of

692
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 3: strangulation that back in the seventeen hundreds they would have

693
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 3: been aware of. It's something that didn't re wire any

694
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 3: special testing. It's an observation.

695
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just over and over again, seeing the same

696
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: thing seemed the same kinds of poisoning over and over again,

697
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,439
Speaker 2: like mercury, Like mercury poisoning that we might not see

698
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: very often now, but they saw all the time, I'm

699
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: sure in the seventeen hundreds. Yes, Okay, So they ultimately

700
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 2: end up killing him. There's three of them versus one Joshua,

701
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: and they dump his body as planned down a well.

702
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: And they went to tell the Sheiba what happened, all

703
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 2: three of them, and she seemed very confused.

704
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: She didn't know what they were talking about.

705
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 2: So the question will be a little bit later whether

706
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: she was acting or whether she was really confused and

707
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 2: having some sort of mental break, not.

708
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: Remembering any of this. The men later on.

709
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: Reported in their interviews with police that she seemed very off,

710
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: like she was not happy or anything like that she

711
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: acted oddly.

712
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's hard to say what's going on there.

713
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 3: She most certainly could be now distancing herself from the homicide,

714
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 3: especially if law enforcement is onto this right away. But

715
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: also is there a level of regret that it went

716
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 3: to this point now she's having emotional distress over it.

717
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, father of her four children, but a man who

718
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 2: is also abusive. This is the part of the story

719
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 2: where I would say this is a cautionary tale for

720
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: people who are thinking of hiring hitman to say, these

721
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 2: were not good hitmen at all. Not only did they

722
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 2: show off Joshua's buckles at a tavern when they all

723
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: went drinking, they were also just bragging in general of

724
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 2: having his things, of making a deal with his wife.

725
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 1: Of course they were drunk, let's say, on grog.

726
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: I'm assuming on cross they were revealing themselves with alcohol.

727
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: And again, these are just young men who were in

728
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: the army that she picked up and said, let's go

729
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 2: ahead and do this, and experienced obviously.

730
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it experience not understanding how a criminal investigation was

731
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 3: going to occur, how their statements they're bragging inside this

732
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 3: bar is ultimately going to be their undoing because now

733
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 3: you have people who are not tied to the crime,

734
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 3: who aren't concerned about their right to freedom if they're

735
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 3: caught going I know something and I can report it

736
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 3: without risk of anything happening to me.

737
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: And it doesn't sound like they were saying we killed

738
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: this guy. It was just saying, look at all his

739
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: great stuff, and now we have it. And it was

740
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: suspicious because this got word to one of Joshua's spooner's friends,

741
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 2: who was a physician named Jonathan King. Jonathan and Joshua

742
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: had been drinking the night that Joshua died.

743
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: He was one of the people at that tavern and

744
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: he was very concerned.

745
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: In the meantime, the men had not picked apparently the

746
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 2: right well to dump Joshua's body in, because his body

747
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: was discovered the next day and I don't know if

748
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: it was floating or how it was discovered, but it

749
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: was spotted fairly easily, and they pulled him up just

750
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 2: in time for Jonathan King, the physician, to examine his

751
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: body and make a prediction about what happened. So first,

752
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: let's tackle picking the wrong well again and experienced, and

753
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 2: there certainly would have been better ways. In a war,

754
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: I would have thought to figure out where to deposit

755
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: this man's body so he wouldn't be found ever again.

756
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: Well, there's so many ways in order to dispose of

757
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 3: a body, you know. I'm wondering this well. I mean,

758
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 3: if it's an act of well, maybe it's being used

759
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,479
Speaker 3: on a daily basis, you know. And if you throw

760
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 3: a body down into this well, and I don't know

761
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: what the diameter of this well is, but is this

762
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: something where he's just floating in the water and you know,

763
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 3: they're looking down into the users of the well or

764
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: looking down going hold on, there's a body down there?

765
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 3: Or does he get stuck? Is it a narrow enough

766
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 3: diameter to where the body gets stuck? And now the

767
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 3: people who use this well aren't able to use it

768
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 3: and look down and go hold on, you know, so

769
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 3: that's part of it. They would have been better off

770
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 3: taking him out into the middle of the woods, yeah,

771
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 3: you know, way out in middle the wood and leaving

772
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 3: him on the surface and let the animals get to him.

773
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: But if he's in the well with enough time and

774
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 2: without discovery, maybe they picked a well that was not

775
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: currently in use. Often wouldn't the water have disfigured him

776
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: enough over time, it's March, it's not hot. I'm just

777
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: trying to think of what water, what going down the

778
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 2: well would have aided in this covering up some kind

779
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: of evidence.

780
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 3: A body being smrged in water for a period of time.

781
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 3: Of course, there is an impact in terms of how

782
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 3: the tissues are affected during the decompositional process. But it

783
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 3: strikes me that, you know, these wells are dug deeper

784
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: into the earth, this is going to be a very

785
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 3: cool environment. That water is going to be very cool,

786
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 3: so it likely is going to be slowing down decomposition.

787
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 3: It's going to be slowing down the release of the gases.

788
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: You know that somebody might smell if they're walking by

789
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 3: the well, but decomposition is still going to occur nonetheless,

790
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 3: you know, and eventually, if he wasn't found right away,

791
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 3: if this is a well that's being used, that water

792
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 3: is probably going to start tasting pretty bad.

793
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: Yeah.

794
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: I don't even want to go through the stories that

795
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 2: I know about that, numerous stories. So regardless, Joshua is

796
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 2: brought up, his body's laid out. His friend, doctor King

797
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 2: comes over and he does an examination and he says,

798
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 2: and this is the only information I have that Joshua's

799
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 2: face above his nose and his temple were very bruised,

800
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 2: and the scalp was cut an inch and a half long.

801
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: And I wonder if that was because nobody's mentioning weapons.

802
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: It looks like he was just strangled and beaten. I

803
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: wonder if that's just from being in the well and

804
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: being knocked on sharp rocks. I'm assuming. I mean, we're

805
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 2: not talking about bricks. We're probably talking about slate wells.

806
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 3: Well, you know, the descriptor, Doctor King is not coming

807
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 3: off as a trained forensic pathologist utilizing you know, the

808
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 3: types of terminologies that would really describe what this wound is.

809
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 3: It's a cut that could be a laceration. This is where,

810
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 3: you know, maybe the side of Joshua's head ends up

811
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 3: hitting against a hard surface and the skin splits. It

812
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 3: could be from being beat you know where Now a

813
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 3: blunt object has hit Joshua's temple area. But what strikes

814
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 3: me is that this is not for the amount of

815
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 3: three men beating on him. This does not sound like

816
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 3: a lot of damage done to Joshua. Doctor King is

817
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 3: not describing abrasions to the body. Imagine a body, you know,

818
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: falling down a well, and scraping along the wall. You're

819
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: going to have abrasions to show that kind of movement

820
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 3: and the rubbing against this rough surface on the skin

821
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 3: that is exposed, and he's not making any mention of that.

822
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: You're right.

823
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think that he was particularly trained

824
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 2: in any sort of forensics. But what he said was

825
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 2: enough to convince the authorities to arrest Ezra with the

826
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: two men who were bragging, all three are arrested. They

827
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 2: all confess, So that is not the interesting part of this.

828
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: They were all intimating. You know, they all said we

829
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 2: did it. Here's the evidence, and Bathsheba is the one

830
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 2: who convinced us to do it. Bathsheba is arrested. She

831
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: is arrested for inciting a betting and procuring the manner

832
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: and form of the murder. So what is in now terms?

833
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: What would she have been arrested for?

834
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: Now?

835
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 2: If you're hiring to kill your husband, Oh geez, is

836
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: that accessory?

837
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: I wonder what that is?

838
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 3: Well, she could most certainly, like in California with the

839
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 3: Fellowy murder, she potentially could be charged with the murder,

840
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 3: just straight up front, even though she's not the one

841
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 3: that is committing the act of violence. But I'm not

842
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 3: sure what the actual charge would be today for because

843
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 3: this is such a rare thing in terms of working

844
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 3: a case where somebody is truly hiring a hitman. That

845
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 3: is something we don't run into very frequently at all.

846
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 2: What's interesting about this is but Sheba, it's really hard

847
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: to get a handle on her as a person and

848
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: now as a defendant. She did not want to identify

849
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 2: Joshua's body. She said she was too upset. She said, yes,

850
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 2: I did ask them to kill my husband, but I

851
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: didn't think they would actually go through with it. And

852
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 2: her attorney said, why would she do that? She admitted

853
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 2: to hiring these men. She must have been insane, because

854
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 2: why would she essentially kill the golden goose. She has

855
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: this husband, who has a lot of family money, she's

856
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: got children. Why would she sacrifice her entire social status?

857
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: Which tells you a lot about what people thought about

858
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 2: in the seventeen hundreds, that they cared much more about

859
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: social status than the fact that this woman says she

860
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: was being abused, maybe her children were being abused, and

861
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: she was trying to find a way out, not the

862
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 2: right way out, but she was trying to find a

863
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: way out.

864
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 3: Did the investigators find anything that Basheba had passed on

865
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 3: to these men in exchange for their services, something that

866
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 3: could lead directly back to her.

867
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: Well, the buckles in the clothes. I mean, we're wearing

868
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: this guy's clothes. This did guy's clothes, which I think

869
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: was the big thing. I don't know if the money

870
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: were still on them. I can't imagine even three soldiers

871
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: could blow through one thousand dollars in seventeen seventy eight

872
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: at a tavern. But I think that the clothing and

873
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: the manner of death. And then they confessed obviously, But

874
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 1: the big thing was she was saying, listen, I told

875
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: him to do it. I didn't think they were going

876
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: to do it, and.

877
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 2: I'm not in my right mind anyway, And so she

878
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: is going down a insanity plea, which we know is

879
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 2: a legal term. It's not a medical term when I

880
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 2: say insanity. It is the legal term that they were

881
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 2: trying to reach to see if she would be put

882
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: into a mental health facility rather than being hanged with

883
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 2: the other three men who ultimately were going to be

884
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 2: convicted and sent to the gallows.

885
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 3: And maybe she was thinking ahead you know, when she

886
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 3: is initially being contacted and she's got the strange behaviors,

887
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 3: maybe she is trying to set up this insanity defense.

888
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 2: And also her claim is that she's pregnant, and oftentimes

889
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 2: women who were pregnant when they would act erratically, it

890
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,240
Speaker 2: was treated as if they had a mental illness.

891
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 1: And so she just.

892
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: Said, I am off balance and I didn't know what

893
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: I was doing, and I should not be held responsible.

894
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: And the attorney said, why would she hire these three guys, well,

895
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 2: the boyfriend and the two men.

896
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: Why would she do that? It just doesn't make any sense.

897
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 1: She said. She was also concerned that her father.

898
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 2: She was going through a lot of emotional stress because

899
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: her father was going to be run out of Massachusetts.

900
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 2: Her father was a loyalist at this point, the loyalists

901
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: were being removed in the war, and she was saying,

902
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 2: this is a breaking point for already a woman who's

903
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: in a difficult mental state to begin with. She has

904
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 2: put on trial, and ultimately she and the other three people,

905
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 2: Ezra and the two other soldiers are all found guilty

906
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: and they're sentenced to be hanged. They're given the death

907
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: penalty for this, which is not surprising, of.

908
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 3: Course, right, and I know from my perspective, I'm just

909
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 3: trying to figure out who does the defense have to

910
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 3: convince right sures of her peers or is it going

911
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 3: to be an appointed individual such as a judge that

912
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 3: would be the lone decider of their fate.

913
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 2: I believe it's a jury, and the jury didn't believe

914
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 2: that this was an insanity defense that was viable, and

915
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 2: so they convicted all four of them. They were all

916
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: sentenced to death. But there's an issue. Remember both Sheba

917
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 2: is saying that I'm pregnant. That's the claim, I'm pregnant,

918
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,879
Speaker 2: and you cannot execute a pregnant woman. On top of this,

919
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: if they go through with this poll, she will be

920
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: the first woman executed in what is now America because

921
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 2: we're post war and we have independence. First woman to

922
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 2: be executed in America if they execute her she says

923
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 2: she's pregnant.

924
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, things get complicated.

925
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 3: Now, absolutely, because now you're taking the life of this

926
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 3: unborn child as the state. So I think that is

927
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 3: a very strong argument that she couldn't be executed until

928
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 3: after she gave birth.

929
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 2: And here's where politics plays in, because this is where

930
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 2: the story gets really odd. We have to have some

931
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 2: medical exams to determine is she lying or not, because

932
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: I don't always believe the sheiba is she making up things?

933
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 2: Did she really know that they were going to kill

934
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 2: the husband? Whose baby is this? If there is a

935
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: baby at all? So the government says, Okay, we're going

936
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: to order an exam and we're not going to execute

937
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 2: her until we figure this out. So they order an exam.

938
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 2: There are Now I had never heard this phrase. In

939
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 2: all of my digging around in the seventeen and eighteen hundreds,

940
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 2: I've never heard the phrase men midwives, men midwives, So

941
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: men who were midwives. Okay, now I had no idea,

942
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 2: but I mean, I guess male obstetricians would be it,

943
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 2: and female obstetricians. But two men midwives examined her and

944
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 2: twelve matrons.

945
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 1: She was not quick with child.

946
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 2: Quick with child as a seventeen hundred phrase, which means

947
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: that the fetus could be felt moving inside the womb,

948
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 2: which meant an advanced state of pregnancy, a viable pregnancy

949
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 2: in the eyes of seventeen seventy eight Massachusetts. So they said,

950
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: if she is pregnant, we can't tell, and the child.

951
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: Is not viable.

952
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 3: Woh okay. So in essence, now she is no longer

953
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 3: considered pregnant and eligible for execution.

954
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: Right. So here's the thing that's interesting.

955
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 2: Women have either faked pregnancies or gotten pregnant on purpose

956
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: in the past. So we're trying to sort out here

957
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 2: whether or not she's manipulating the system and if she's pregnant.

958
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 2: But we have now fourteen people who say that she

959
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 2: was not quick with child so that the pregnancy could

960
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 2: be felt in the womb, and that this was going

961
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 2: to be a viable pregnancy. So Buthiba of course protested

962
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,879
Speaker 2: and said we need another exam. There was one other

963
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: exam given whoever did the exam that the person in

964
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,959
Speaker 2: the main who did the exam said that she could

965
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: tell that she was pregnant and this was a viable pregnancy.

966
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 2: So you've got fourteen people versus one person. And this

967
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 2: is important because, as we're saying, this would have been

968
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 2: in the seventeen hundreds, eighteen hundreds and now would have

969
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,240
Speaker 2: been horrifying to execute a woman who was pregnant.

970
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 3: And this is an example of a battle of experts

971
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 3: in a legal proceeding. You have individuals that have specialized training,

972
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 3: and they're coming to different conclusions while examining the same patient.

973
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 2: And even the woman who examined her, who said, yes,

974
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 2: she is quick with child, still couldn't determine how far

975
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 2: along she was. But the estimate would have been five

976
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: to six months if she were telling the truth to

977
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: begin with. The government said this doesn't matter. We have

978
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: fourteen people who say that she's not pregnant or not

979
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 2: quick with child, and we're going to proceed with execution.

980
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 2: And but Sheba finally gave up and said, okay, but

981
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 2: I demand that you do an autopsy on my body

982
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 2: after I die, because I'm right, and you were essentially

983
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 2: all going to go to hell for doing this. So

984
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 2: all four people, so Spoon or Ross and then the

985
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 2: two soldiers, Brooks and Buchanan, were all publicly hanged, of course,

986
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 2: on July second, seventeen seventy eight, because public hangings were

987
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 2: so common and there were.

988
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: Five thousand people.

989
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: I can't even say this enough, how common public hangings

990
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: were in the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds, to the

991
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 2: glee of people who sat there and wanted to see it.

992
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 2: It's incredible when you look at some of the photographs

993
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 2: from the eighteen hundreds of people watching public executions, how

994
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 2: happy they are to see it. With picnics and fried

995
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 2: chicken and everything that you could think, children running around

996
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 2: all over the place. It was a huge social event

997
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 2: to see somebody hanged.

998
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like it's like the Saturday afternoon Matt

999
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 3: and Ay. Everybody's coming for entertainment. You know, it's just

1000
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 3: so bizarre that that mentality existed back in the day.

1001
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this was a big part of the social

1002
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 2: scene in this This is you know, five thousand people

1003
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 2: coming to the public square with their children.

1004
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: A storm broke out.

1005
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 2: Of course, this really feels like the Salem witch trials,

1006
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 2: and it's just sort of this real Gothic feeling. It's July,

1007
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: but there's this huge summer storm that comes through, and

1008
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 2: one newspaper said later on, God is in his wrath,

1009
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:26,399
Speaker 2: protesting in vivid lightnings and aspiring thunder. Because there were

1010
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 2: a lot of people who did believe that she was

1011
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: pregnant and that.

1012
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: This was not a just execution.

1013
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 2: So all four were hanged and people leave, and as requested,

1014
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 2: the shiba has a autopsy done on her body, and

1015
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 2: it turns out.

1016
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: She was five months pregnant with a boy.

1017
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 2: Oh wow, and by all estimates totally healthy would have

1018
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 2: gone to full term boy.

1019
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: Is what they believed. Yeah, they hanged a pregnant woman

1020
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: five months pregnant.

1021
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 3: And it really shows the state of midwivary. I'm not

1022
00:51:58,080 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 3: sure if that's the way to say it.

1023
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 1: That could be a yes.

1024
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 3: You know, but back where you have fourteen of these

1025
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 3: experts all saying she wasn't and she's five months pregnant,

1026
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 3: I mean, she's in her second trimester.

1027
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: And certainly showing I would assume at this point.

1028
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow.

1029
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 2: Okay, So here's the stinger here, As I said, first

1030
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: woman officially in the new United States in America to

1031
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: be hanged, and hundreds of years later, people have looked

1032
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 2: at this case and re examined it, and it's not

1033
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 2: forensically looking for different evidence.

1034
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: What historians are saying they're putting together.

1035
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,760
Speaker 2: Is looking at people who signed the death warrant, people

1036
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 2: who were pushing for this to happen. The officials who

1037
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:45,439
Speaker 2: signed the death warrant not only were patriots who had

1038
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 2: a disdain for Timothy Ruggles, but also one of the

1039
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 2: main people who signed the death warrant was Joshua Spooner's stepbrother. Okay,

1040
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 2: so the idea was that these fourteen people who all

1041
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 2: said she did not have a pregnancy, that was quickened

1042
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: that there was a baby moving around, and then you

1043
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 2: have someone else who says, yes, that's the truth.

1044
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: The idea and the accusation now is that you.

1045
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 2: Have fourteen people who were lying and that she wouldn't

1046
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 2: have been executed at least at that point. The politics

1047
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 2: that play in here, the loyalists versus the patriots, someone

1048
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 2: trying to get away with a crime, they end up

1049
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 2: executing a woman.

1050
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 1: All they would have had to do is.

1051
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 2: Wait three or four more months, but they couldn't. They

1052
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 2: wanted to make an example of her. And it sounds

1053
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 2: like specifically because of her father, because of his connections,

1054
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:35,959
Speaker 2: because he was a loyalist and a powerful one.

1055
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 3: The prejudice is so obvious from the political side. And

1056
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 3: then these fourteen midwives and matrons were they paid off

1057
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 3: in order to come to a certain conclusion. And then

1058
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 3: you had the one that her team hired going no,

1059
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 3: she's pregnant.

1060
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 2: Regardless though the proof is there five month old baby boy.

1061
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 3: This isn't a who done it? The case you know

1062
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 3: the right people were caught, and she sounds like she

1063
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 3: had her own role in the death of Joshua.

1064
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,439
Speaker 2: The thing that I think is so interesting and why

1065
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 2: I thought this story was really important, is you have

1066
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 2: a woman from an affluent family married to an affluent man,

1067
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 2: maybe a marriage out of convenience, terrible marriage. It sounds

1068
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 2: like an abusive man. She has an affair with a

1069
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 2: young man, she gets pregnant, She's scared to death of

1070
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 2: the pregnancy, and now we know it was a real pregnancy.

1071
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 1: She was not making this up. She was scared, and

1072
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: she thought the only way out would be to kill

1073
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: her husband, and unfortunately that might have been one of

1074
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: the most viable ways out for her.

1075
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 2: Deserting her children didn't sound like it was going to

1076
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 2: be an option. And I certainly am not condoning killing

1077
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 2: your husband. I am saying, though, that there were such

1078
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: limitations for women in the seventeen hundreds that she felt trapped.

1079
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 2: She made some pretty big mistakes, and surely there would

1080
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 2: have been a different way for her to get out.

1081
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 2: But executing her while pregnant, even if she was lying,

1082
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 2: all they had to do was wait four months put

1083
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 2: her in jail, which would have been a terrible jail

1084
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 2: in the seventeen hundreds.

1085
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 1: She might have died on her own there. But the

1086
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: anger towards the loyalists in that time period after the

1087
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: war was incredible and they were out to punish people.

1088
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 2: So politics again plays a part in women's roles and

1089
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 2: how you women are perceived in society.

1090
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 3: Let me throw a thought out at you and you

1091
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 3: know today, of course I would want proof that the

1092
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:37,240
Speaker 3: unborn child was in fact Ezras. Yeah, you had mentioned

1093
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 3: that there is a chance that Basheba had potentially had

1094
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 3: other affairs during the course of her marriage. Considering her

1095
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 3: status in the community, I would imagine that these other

1096
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 3: affairs would probably have been with men who also had status.

1097
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 3: Is it possible that another high status male is indeed

1098
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 3: the father of the child? But Bsheba knew she could

1099
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 3: convince Ezra because he's so young. Yeah, basically to be

1100
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 3: the one to take out Joshua. In some ways, from

1101
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 3: looking at this from a different perspective, is there a

1102
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 3: powerful and influential male who's trying to hide the fact

1103
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,280
Speaker 3: that he had an affair with Bsheba That could also

1104
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 3: be influencing the speed in which she's executed.

1105
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: It could be.

1106
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, boy, that's quite a conspiracy, even bigger than the

1107
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 2: one that we've been talking about. And also, to go

1108
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 2: back over to the Sheba side a little bit, there

1109
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 2: is a very distinct possibility that she has repeated to

1110
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 2: friends over and over again that they really dislike each other.

1111
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: It does not mean that he's not making her have sex.

1112
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: There's no sexual assault, true.

1113
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,959
Speaker 2: So that could have even more deeply influenced her because

1114
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 2: there was no definitive proof of this being Ezra's child.

1115
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 2: And just because they have a terrible marriage certainly does

1116
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 2: not mean that it's not possible for her to have

1117
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 2: gotten pregnant through rape.

1118
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 1: So this is another mystery.

1119
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 2: But I think that the signific gets of this case

1120
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 2: has been pretty great just because this is the first

1121
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 2: woman to be executed. It's always startling to me to

1122
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 2: read about women being executed regardless of the time period.

1123
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 2: But I've also said many many times that when we

1124
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 2: say people are surprised that women kill is not giving

1125
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 2: women very much credit. Women are as capable as men

1126
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 2: are of anger and murder and plotting and deviousness and

1127
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 2: bath Sheba, I suspect knew exactly what was happening but

1128
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 2: the fact that she was pregnant really through an interesting

1129
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 2: twist into this story for me, and so I was

1130
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: glad to share it with you.

1131
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: I think it's a really interesting case.

1132
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 2: It is, and however you feel about what ultimately happened

1133
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 2: with Bsheba, it seems clear that she was made.

1134
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: An example of by the Patriot government.

1135
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 2: So I am expecting to hear you give me details

1136
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 2: next week about booking your next flight to go to

1137
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 2: New England and to check.

1138
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 1: Out, to check out the area.

1139
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 2: It is absolutely beautiful, and then we'll have some more stories. So, boy,

1140
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 2: by the end of season one, if you don't go

1141
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 2: to New England, I'm just going.

1142
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: To tear my hair out.

1143
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 3: One of the things that's possibly going to draw me

1144
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 3: to New England is Bosheba was buried in an unmarked

1145
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 3: grave and they don't know where that's at. Right, I'm like, well,

1146
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 3: I want to see if I can figure out where

1147
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 3: that's at. He had Oh, let's solve that mystery.

1148
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: Sounds like a road trip. Let's do it.

1149
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 2: Let's get Cora in the car and we'll go. We'll

1150
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 2: take our families up there and see. Okay, So we'll

1151
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 2: talk again next week with another compelling episode of Buried Bones.

1152
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1153
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 3: For our Sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

1154
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1155
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1156
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1157
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1158
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 3: Same song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1159
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1160
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1161
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1162
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 2: buried Bones Pod.

1163
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1164
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1165
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and

1166
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

1167
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 2: Cases is also available now