WEBVTT - The Inside Scoop on ED Recovery ft. @Jennifer_rollin 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:04.400 I won't let my body out me out well everything 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.920 that I'm made do. Won't spend my life trying to change. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.440 I'm learning to love who I am. I get I'm strong, 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:15.840 I feel free, I know who every part of me. 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:24.000 It's beautiful and I will always out way if you 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.200 feel it with joys in there, she's some love to 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:31.200 the boom there. Let's say good day and did you 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:37.080 and die out? All right? Amy here and Lisa and 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.920 I are super excited to be joined today by Jennifer Rowland. 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.519 She has been on Outwagh before and she's someone we 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.680 reference quite a bit here on Our Way and even 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:50.600 on my four Things podcast. I feel like I'm always 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.800 referring people to something that Jennifer has posted on Instagram 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.800 because I just feel like she uses Instagram. Well, it's 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.080 a powerful tool. Instagram is how I even connected with Lisa, 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:04.720 and Lisa opened me up to this whole world of 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.280 people that are really making an impact. I'm speaking from 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:10.080 someone who I know We've got a lot of listeners 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:13.240 that this is new information to them. But y'all have 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.120 really been digging deep in this stuff for quite some time, 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.560 and you've made it your life's mission to help people 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.360 in a different way, you know, and you're a eating 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:26.520 disorder therapist. There's other people that do work in your 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:28.560 field that I feel like sometimes you even have to 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.920 call them out. I just learned so much from what 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.600 you put on Instagram, which if people want to follow you, 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.280 you're at Jennifer Underscore roll in r O L L 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:40.959 I in. But we're extra excited to have you on 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.920 today because we're gonna be breaking down your new book, 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.760 which is called The Inside Scoop on Eating disorder Recovery, 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.560 and it's advice from two therapists who have been there 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.600 and out of the gate. Just let us know what 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:58.040 inspired you and Calleen to write this book. Why did 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:00.320 you want to put this out there? Because working on 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.920 Instagram and working with clients, which that's your main thing, 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:04.880 working the clients, that's a lot. But to take on 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.880 writing a book, that's a whole another animal. So why 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.040 was it important to you to do that? Yeah, So, 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.280 speaking of meeting people on Instagram, Colleen and I actually 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.760 met I want to stay on Instagram or Facebook many 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.720 years ago and became friends and we both kind of 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.320 came to the idea separately. It was actually very like 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.000 serendipitous where I had been thinking, you know, Colleen, like, 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.280 wouldn't it be so cool if we had a recovery 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.160 book that was kind of how to guide for people 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.040 and eating disort of recovery, where each chapter was a 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:36.720 different topic, And she's like, Jen, I've been working on 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:38.760 this book for like a couple of years actually, like 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:41.519 I had the same exact idea. So then a publisher 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:43.959 ended up reaching out to me randomly on Instagram a 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.440 couple of months after we started working on the outline, 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.400 and basically long roundabout way of saying, I wrote the 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.720 book because I personally struggled with the eating disorder and 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.920 my passion is really helping other people to recover, and 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.880 I saw this as another avenue to reach people who 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.400 maybe couldn't come to see me for therapy. Well, you 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.639 know something that I have really enjoyed as how y'all 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.360 did the book was you back it up with a 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.400 lot of research and it's very thoughtfully done. But every 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:14.600 once in a while you'll sprinkle in, you know, Colleen's 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:17.680 personal story or Jennifer's personal story, so then it makes 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:21.880 it so relatable and for certain people reading it, including myself, 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.880 it's like oh wow, Okay, there are others out there 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.960 that have the same things that I have going on 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.320 inside of my head. So I thought that was a 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.600 nice little touch that you know, is occasionally sprinkled in 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.160 and made it very, very very relatable. Yeah, that means 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.720 a lot, and we've gotten that feedback that people love, 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.720 like the personal antecdotes. We also tried to write it 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.560 in kind of like a snarky, sassy tones that it 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.520 wasn't like to make a serious topic kind of I 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.480 don't want to say fun, but relatable, to make it 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:53.520 sound like it was your best friends, kind of like 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.560 talking to you about recovery tips a little bit more 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.240 approachable as well. And I think a lot of people 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.400 really put therapists and maybe registered dietitians who work with 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:08.320 eating disorders on this pedestal. And by inserting your story 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.360 of I get it, I've been there, I know the struggle, 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:13.680 which is very I feel like different than perhaps how 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.799 you were like professionally trained to do business. And obviously 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.800 there's a perfect balance that you've found of sharing so 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:23.240 that it's helpful, not you know, over sharing. I personally 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:27.200 also find it really meticulously well done how you to 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.760 share and the fact that you really had the courage 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:34.240 to share and disrupt what's expected of therapists, because not 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.599 just for your own personal like, yeah, you did something big, 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.560 but for so many of our listeners. I think they're 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:44.240 afraid to knock on a therapist store. They think that, 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.279 you know, it comes with judgment, or they just don't 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.359 really know what to expect. Maybe, so I think softening 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.719 that and prying open that door a little bit to 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.320 your own life creates some safe place. Yeah, and that 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.840 was again like, really our intention was not to come 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.159 off as this traditional therapy where it's very stuffy, like 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.359 you're laying back on a couch, the person is a 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.280 blank slate. We wanted to, yeah, do exactly what you're 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.560 talking about, make people feel more open and more comfortable 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.360 with reaching out for help. So if people wanted to 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:15.960 pick up this book, and again it's called The Inside 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.600 Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery, and on the cover it's 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.280 this really pretty pinkish purpleish color, but then there's a 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.720 big old ice cream scooper full of some vanilla ice 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:27.960 cream and so and then if you again, if you 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.599 follow Jennifer on Instagram too, I love the different you know, 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.240 yummy coffee posts and all the eating disorder recovery looks 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.800 like this, and she's doing like an amazing food post. 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.640 But who is this book for? And maybe who is 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.480 this book not for? Yeah, so we say it in 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.120 the book that this book is really for everyone. I 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.760 think I know myself, and from hearing a little bit 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.080 about both of your stories, I think it was similar 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.120 this idea of like I'm not sick enough, maybe I 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.919 haven't been professionally diagnosed. Maybe I'm not you know, in 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.159 a quote unquote underweight body. And so this book is 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.240 for everyone, for people who've been diagnosed with eating disorders, 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.520 for people who struggle with disordered eating, basically for anyone 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.479 who struggles in their relationship to food and their body, 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.400 because we wanted to debunk that myth about like what 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:17.040 it means to be like quote unquote sick enough. And specifically, 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.279 we hear a lot from our audience that they are. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.160 When we talk about eating disorders, what they hear is restriction, 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:28.840 and that's not their problem. They struggle with binging over eating, 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:32.040 and sometimes the weight comes with it, sometimes it doesn't. 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.880 But would this book provide tools for somebody who is 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.160 struggling with the binge portion. Absolutely, and we've gotten that 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:41.640 question a fair bit, and we have a chapter on 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:45.400 binge eating disorder as well as orthorexia and trauma, so 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.840 we cover a whole host across the eating disorder spectrum. 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.159 One activity that I enjoyed doing was filling out my 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:58.160 bio psycho social egg so explain to people and obviously 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.440 they get the book they will have a better understand standing. 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.120 But I did think that that was an interesting activity 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.279 to have us do as we were working our way 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.400 through the beginning of the book, just so that we 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:11.960 understand our egg, and like, what does our egg have 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.120 to do with what's going on with us? Can you 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.800 explain why it's important for people to know their egg 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.480 and why you'll put that in there. Absolutely. So when 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:23.960 we think about eating disorders or other mental illnesses, it's 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.040 this saying where we say genetics loads the gun and 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:31.480 then environment pulls the trigger. So looking at your biopsychosocial 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:35.400 egg is looking at biological factors, right. So I happen 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.760 to have a close family member who had air XCO, 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.680 which I later learned temperamental factors. So there are some 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:46.600 personality traits like perfectionism, harm avoidance being a highly sensitive person. 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.920 And then lastly we look at environmental factors, so we 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:55.480 know oppression, you know, fat phobia, racism, trauma, going through 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.720 food and security. These are all things in our environment 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.040 which come together for that person who has maybe some 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.400 of the underlying genetics and some of the personality factors 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.920 which creates this eating disorder egg and ultimately causes it 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.640 to crack, which causes the eating disorder. If that makes sense, 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.720 It makes so much sense, and I think as it's 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.679 such a helpful way to really break down that eating 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:21.880 disorders aren't caused by one thing. And one word that 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.960 you just said that really spoke to me specifically was 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.480 it can be caused by trauma or trauma is one 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.640 of the things that can bring on an eating disorder 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.000 in conjunction with some other things. But a lot of 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.880 my clients and perhaps people you work with, some have 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:40.000 obvious trauma, such as you know, sexual trauma or emotional trauma, 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:45.240 but others aren't able to say I have had trauma 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:49.600 because they don't view their experience as quote unquote traumatic. 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.800 So do you find in your practice that it's helpful 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:57.640 to explore what trauma actually means? Absolutely? And that's such 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.440 a common thing where people think, oh, trauma as only 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:04.520 sexual assault or physical assault or abuse, and they will 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.840 minimize their experiences and say, oh, well, that couldn't possibly 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.199 have been a trauma. So in our book we talk 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.000 about big tea and little t traumas, and it's not 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:17.200 to diminish anything, but it's to recognize that trauma is 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.920 anything that overwhelms your nervous system's ability to cope in 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.600 that moment. So if you're a child and your parents 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:26.839 go through a really awful divorce, that could be a trauma. Right. 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.240 It's common, a lot of people go through that, but 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.720 it can be highly traumatic, and so we have to 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:36.080 realize that trauma is way more broadly defined than how 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.880 it's typically defined, you know in the media. Yeah, I 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.000 think it's so important for people to recognize big teas 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.440 and little teas and then if they do have the 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.480 resources to put in the work to maybe even access 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:51.960 sometimes we yeah have trauma that we don't even realize 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.160 is there because we don't have the time or the 0:09:56.240 --> 0:10:01.240 resources or the energy to tap in to trauma, whether 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:03.360 big or little, And depending on how long we've been 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:08.000 numbing with whatever various thing, for however long, then yeah, 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.400 bringing that trauma to the surface is very challenging, but 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.920 then validating to be like, yeah, even though you didn't 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.680 go through physical or sexual assault, you went through something 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.680 else that was challenging, and even if no one else understands, 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.320 it's real to you and this is one of the 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.720 causes that you know is how you ended up in 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.520 this situation. So how how do your clients respond to 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.800 doing this biopsychosocial egg work. I think you know, for 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.000 people it can be a big like light bulb moment, 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.920 or even just it feels good to gain more insight 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.079 into the different factors that caused it, because we don't 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:45.640 necessarily need to know what caused it in order to 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:49.200 treat it, but it's definitely helpful right to guide our 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.040 course of treatment. Right, if it's partially caused by trauma, 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:54.880 then trauma work might be indicated. For instance, like after 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.200 somebody has worked on healing their behaviors with food, I 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:02.000 will say with the I'M a specific component that can 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.560 be challenging, Like you both kind of alluded to, where 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:08.040 it's like someone might have never identified as a trauma survivor, 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.280 but as they're looking at the environmental stressors they went through, 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.080 and they have someone like me or another therapist who's 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.920 validating and saying, wow, you know that sounds traumatic that 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:21.120 your parents weren't emotionally available. Um So recognizing that they 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.000 might have struggled more than they are aware of can 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:26.560 also be a little bit jarring. I think at first 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.360 for some people. I had to read actually a few 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.800 times because I had never had it put this way 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.200 for me, but was acting as if and I went 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:39.240 ahead and started doing that. I was hearing you. I 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.120 mean maybe I had heard it in different ways from 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.679 other people, but I was traveling the weekend that I 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:47.880 was reading your book, and I went out to eat 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:49.720 a couple of times, and I thought, well, this is 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.160 fun for me to do that act as if activity. 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.719 And we went out to Mellow Mushroom or something and 0:11:55.920 --> 0:12:00.880 I ordered yeah, and I ordered a year barbecue chicken 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:05.559 pizza with jalapenos, and yeah, it's got this barbecue drizzle. 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:09.120 And I don't think, honestly, i'd had that in I 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.920 don't know, twelve years, not for any reason. I just 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.600 had not been to Mellow Mushroom. But even if I 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.679 had been, like eight years ago or something, I probably 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.280 would have only ordered the salad or soup or something 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.239 like that, and it was fun for me in recovery. 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.280 And I'm not trying to throw in anybody's face that 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:29.719 isn't quite there yet, but i will say it was 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.280 a great activity, even on the other side of things, 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:34.560 to still act as if. And I'm gonna have you 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:36.440 break that down because some people are probably like, wait, 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.440 what do you mean to act as if? But my 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:44.200 example is I ordered my barbecue chicken pizza and I 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.400 acted like this is totally normal for me. And it's 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.280 cool because now it is normal for me, But I 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.880 just wish that I had had that activity years ago, 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.760 because you know, I do think you have to to 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.880 practice it. You have to practice doing those things that 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:02.680 maybe you're like, oh wait, I'm I'm not supposed to 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.360 have this pizza and I'm doing air quotes, but as 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.160 a podcast you can't see. But when you do the activity, 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.360 you act like it's totally normal, and you're like, yeah, 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.520 it's very normal for me to be ordering this pizza 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:19.360 right now, and then it creates that new narrow pathway 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.800 of like, yes, this is normal. I absolutely love that. 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:25.560 That is such a great example and it's so awesome, 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.240 like just to have that joy and food right like 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.720 after you deeply struggled with eating disorder. It's the joy 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.480 coming out of Amy's mouth right now, Like you're so 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.160 alive telling that story that it's giving me life and 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.160 making me want to find a mellow mushroom. But it's 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.800 like it's so contagious what you're putting out right now 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.960 telling that story by using the tool in this book. So, 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.120 I mean, I think we all feel that, which is 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:52.880 also Yeah, even though that's an activity I've done, I 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.880 just wasn't ever calling it act as if. So then 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.160 even when I read it in your book, Jennifer, I 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:00.600 read it a couple of times, and then I wanted 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.000 to implement my act as if. And now now it's 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:05.760 making sense. I don't know, maybe I was tired at 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:07.679 the time, but it like wasn't clicking for me, and 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:09.680 then I was like, oh wait, now I totally get it. 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:13.280 But so for other people, like breakdown act as if 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.880 and what it is, and then why it's important to 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.600 act as if when you are really seeking recovery. Yeah, 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.240 So I love this skill and some people might just 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.440 kind of know of it without knowing the name, But 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.960 basically what it is is thinking about, first off, like 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.560 your true life values and like what you want for 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.600 your life. And so for someone in recovery, maybe that's 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:36.640 my value is I want to be able to share 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.120 pizza with friends. Yet and in recovery, I feel really 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.760 scared and terrified. My eating disorder is telling me you 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.120 know you're gonna gain x pounds or like X is unhealthy, right, 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.960 And so instead I choose to act as if And 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.080 basically that's doing the action while feeling the fear or 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:58.120 whatever other emotion it is. Ultimately, just to explain it further, 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.040 I think often in life we say I'm gonna wait 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.200 till I feel motivated or I'm gonna wait till I 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.160 feel confident before doing that hard and scary thing. But 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.560 the thing is that the behavior changed comes before our 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.960 thoughts start to change. So we only gain confidence by 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.000 doing actions that we would do if we were confident 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.840 while feeling scared shitless inside. So that's ultimately kind of 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.680 what it is. And I think your example was so perfect. 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:24.600 I'm so glad that you wrote a book because you 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:29.000 have such a succinct and powerful way of putting things 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.080 into words. And I think that makes you want to 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.640 do it. It's really incredible. In your book, you also 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.560 talk about mantras for food guilt. I can't tell you 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.920 how many times get d m s from somebody in 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.000 a panic who's going through the guilt of I just ate, 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.800 or maybe the guilt of I didn't exercise today. Can 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:51.640 you tell us a little bit about what inspired you 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.360 to include mantras, maybe even backing up and just explaining 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.160 what a mantra is I define it. Mantra is kind 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:00.440 of just something a coping statement, some thing that you 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.880 tell yourself in the moment, And for people in recovery, 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.640 often there's a lot of guilt and anxiety around eating 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.880 or like around exercise behaviors, things like that, and many 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.080 of my clients struggle with guilt and anxiety around food. 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.560 So these are just like short statements that you can 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.080 kind of tell yourself if you're in the heat at 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.200 that moment and the eating disort of voices yelling in 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:26.000 your head about how quote unquote bad like some food is. 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.640 It can be so powerful to have that, and if 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:31.840 it sounds like that won't help me in the moment, 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.440 It's one of those things that you just got to 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.520 try it, and it's so centering because it gets you 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.200 out of that fear mode and into safety. And even 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.040 though you're in the same exact physical space you just were, 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:45.800 it's like a new door has been opened and it's 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.960 just a glimmer of light. But that glimmer of light 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.040 is all you need to keep going and know that 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.720 you just did something really hard and keep going with 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.440 acting as if. Even pairing those two together, I feel 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:59.720 it could be really helpful. I was just about to 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.280 say a mantra could be Okay, act as if, act 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.800 as if, act as if, and you can repeat that 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.920 to yourself and it's not lost on all three of us, 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.520 Like we've all been in your shoes. If you're if, 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:13.879 you're listening and you're like, okay, but really, what did 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.160 they know? And it's like, no, gosh, we've been there. 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:21.080 Everybody's story is a little bit different. But yeah, I mean, 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.639 maybe that mantra for you is act as if, Like 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.439 maybe skipping the workout is what you need, and you 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.879 act like that's your normal. Oh, act as if skipping 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.480 your workout is no big deal, and then eventually it 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.239 will become no big deal, like your life will go 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.840 on I just remember thinking like if I did not 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.879 work out for a day, that my whole body was 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:43.639 what was going to happen. I didn't know if it's 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:45.760 gonna wake up and my clothes wouldn't fit, Like I 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.879 had those thoughts, if I don't go to the gym today, 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.320 I'm gonna be bigger tomorrow. And you know, I wish 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.480 that I had had had a mantra or something else 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.320 to tell myself of like that's just not the case. 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.119 And I was giving myself more stress and anxiety and 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.879 worry in all my thoughts instead of keeping them more 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.600 positive and believing that that I did have more control 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.480 than I thought. Does that make sense so much? And Jennifer, 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.600 I'm a huge fan of therapy, have been in therapy 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:15.960 my whole life, but I'd say, if I had to, 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.439 I really don't like having regrets. But if I have 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.440 one regret after meeting you and reading this book, even 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:28.439 is that I didn't ever seek out specifically and eating 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:34.080 disorder therapist specifically, because even though I knew I had 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.200 food stuff going on, to have somebody walk you through 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:41.080 these things that I did alone and provide the tools 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:45.320 rather than feel so freaking alone when you have that 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:48.720 food guilt or that workout guilt, and to have somebody 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:50.640 to say it to and to that person to first 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.440 of all validate your experience and then provide a tool 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.639 to get you through it. I mean, you're saving a 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.760 lot on emotional energy that you know. It's hard to 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.640 figure this stuff out on your own because you once 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.320 you're in that fear brain, it's really hard to realize 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.919 that there's any other way to feel. In that moment. 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.880 It feels so scary that your clothes aren't going to fit, 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.560 or that you've caused damage to your health, if you're 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.800 struggling with orthorexia, you know all those things. So yeah, 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.800 you know a dred percent. And I think even when 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.320 you do seek treatment, it's so helpful right to have 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.160 someone to walk alongside you, especially if they've been there, 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:27.760 but even if they haven't, who has lots of experience 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:31.040 with working with eating diswortters. I highly recommend that. And 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.080 we also have to set expectations that when you're starting 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.600 to act as if like you're going to be scared 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.520 and that fear brain is going to be activated, right, 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.520 and like you said, something like a mantra or other 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.080 things can be grounding to get you out of almost 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.040 that like fight or flight, which can come up because 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.760 you know, we all understand for people with eating disorders, 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.320 taking that day off of going to the gym feels 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.680 like taking someone with a fear of heights and saying, Okay, 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:57.600 we're at the top of this really tall building and 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.320 I want you to stand here and bungee jump off 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:03.239 of it. Right, So we have to acknowledge that this 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:05.120 work is really hard, but I think we can all 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:09.479 say that it's incredibly rewarding and the payoff is really big. Okay, Jennifer, 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:12.040 do you mind if I read something from your Instagram? Now? 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.040 Go for it. You put up a big picture of 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.560 Hoggendoss ice cream, and that was the photo, and then 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.919 your caption was my life without an eating disorder is 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.600 a million times better than my life with one. In 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.840 my eating disorder, I was miserable, frequently, didn't want to 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.840 be alive, and very anxious. Today, I've been mostly off 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.760 exploring Baltimore with Mark. We got lunch at a restaurant. 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:36.879 I asked him if we could grab some ice cream 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.639 and we'll be eating dinner out in my e d. 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.560 I would have been so anxious about all of it 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.679 and missed out on joy, not just the food, but 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.480 being able to enjoy the moment and the day with Mark. 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:52.399 I feel happy and at peace with myself. I just 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:54.960 wanted to share that as a story of hope and 0:20:55.119 --> 0:21:01.280 encouragement to anybody listening that if you feel anxious and miserable. 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:05.040 I remember feeling, yes, tons of negative emotions when I 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.000