Speaker 1: Well, I'm so glad that you were here doing this.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Too much for having you.
Speaker 1: How come my little cultural pot one little cultural anthology,
Speaker 1: which is how I lovetily like to think about it.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: Hello, I'm mini driver. I've always loved Preust's questionnaire. It
Speaker 1: was originally in nineteenth century parlor game where players would
Speaker 1: ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing the
Speaker 1: other player's true nature. In asking different people the same
Speaker 1: set of questions, you can make observations about which truths
Speaker 1: appear to be universal. And it made me wonder, what
Speaker 1: if these questions were just the jumping off point, what
Speaker 1: greater depths would be revealed if I asked these questions
Speaker 1: as conversation starters. So I adapted Prus's questionnaire and I
Speaker 1: wrote my own seven questions that I personally think are
Speaker 1: pertinent to a person's story.
Speaker 3: They are when and where were you happiest? What is
Speaker 3: the quality you likely about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines.
Speaker 1: Love for you?
Speaker 3: What question would you most like answered, What person, place,
Speaker 3: or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
Speaker 3: your last meal? And can you tell me something in
Speaker 3: your life? That's grown out of a personal disaster, and
Speaker 3: I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that
Speaker 3: I am honored and humbled to have had the chance
Speaker 3: to engage with. You may not hear their answers to
Speaker 3: all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to
Speaker 3: which questions felt closest to their experience, or the most surprising,
Speaker 3: or created the most fertile ground to connect.
Speaker 1: My guest today on Mini Questions is the actor and
Speaker 1: all round excellent person Lucy Boynton. I first met Lucy
Speaker 1: when we were shooting the film Chevalier in Prague. Over
Speaker 1: the course of promoting a film, you get to spend
Speaker 1: time with the people in it, and Lucy is just
Speaker 1: one of the most interesting and thoughtful.
Speaker 3: Women I've met in a long time.
Speaker 1: She considers things. I'm really inspired by how she doesn't
Speaker 1: just quickly answer a question when it's posed to fill
Speaker 1: the space to hold the floor, but rather takes her
Speaker 1: time responding and then revels in the answer. She attributes
Speaker 1: this to having grown up in a household of journalists
Speaker 1: where the question was the thing. Actors are funny people,
Speaker 1: I mean funny peculiar by that we appear extrovert, when
Speaker 1: there is actually a whole other, inward facing person interrogating
Speaker 1: things and wondering if any of it is fit for
Speaker 1: public consumption. Lucy gracefully inhabits both these aspects, and I
Speaker 1: always look forward to seeing her and to watching what
Speaker 1: films she chooses to make. I'm particularly looking forward to
Speaker 1: seeing The Greatest Hits, her newest movie out now on Hulu.
Speaker 1: Where and when were you happiest?
Speaker 2: I found it so hard to answer, because I think
Speaker 2: my answer to that would change so much all the
Speaker 2: time based on what I currently want and like what
Speaker 2: I'm currently seeking. But I think the one that really
Speaker 2: springs to mind is I had a five day period
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one where I had just finished filming
Speaker 2: The Hipgris File and I was about to go onto
Speaker 2: this mini series when I had five days of quarantine
Speaker 2: way back when we had to do that, and I
Speaker 2: was so content. I just finished a job that was
Speaker 2: one of the best times of my life personal experience
Speaker 2: wise and work wise. I was about to go onto
Speaker 2: something I loved so much, and that in terms of
Speaker 2: work that's been kind of the dream forever, feeling safe
Speaker 2: in it and feeling inspired by it. And energized by it,
Speaker 2: and it had just been so rewarding working with such
Speaker 2: brilliant people as well that I'm still so close with,
Speaker 2: So it was really personally impactful as well. It was
Speaker 2: a period of time where I just felt contentment.
Speaker 1: I heard Julia Roberts interviewed once and she said, for her,
Speaker 1: the best time was the time between when one job
Speaker 1: ended but you knew another one was beginning. And I
Speaker 1: think it's so many actors have this feeling of we
Speaker 1: never know where the next job is coming from. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're one of most actors, so that feeling of
Speaker 1: safety bookended by work. Do you think that safety for
Speaker 1: you is part of contentment, that the incredible instability of
Speaker 1: being an actor and not knowing, well, perhaps I will
Speaker 1: be able to pay my mortgage or can I look
Speaker 1: a year down the line, and is it okay if
Speaker 1: I go on holiday? Is it okay if I make
Speaker 1: plans for my future financially because I have no idea
Speaker 1: if I'm going to be able to underwrite that with work? Exactly,
Speaker 1: the safety factor into happiness for.
Speaker 2: You totally, because it also gives you a momentary sense
Speaker 2: of structure of your life, kind of like what you're saying,
Speaker 2: but it allows me to understand where I'll be and when,
Speaker 2: so then I can start to shape my life. So
Speaker 2: in that pocket of time, I felt that satisfied feeling
Speaker 2: of being exhausted by something that you loved, something is
Speaker 2: on the horizon. But now I'm dipping back into my
Speaker 2: life life and I'm present with my friends and family again,
Speaker 2: and I know where I'll be for the next chunk
Speaker 2: of time, so I can also start to shape my
Speaker 2: personal life in a way that when you don't know
Speaker 2: when you're working next, you can't.
Speaker 1: Except So what do you think the attraction of this itinerancy?
Speaker 1: Because it is in this life that we live, because
Speaker 1: it's certainly nothing that anyone It's so funny. Everyone always
Speaker 1: talked about the unemployment as an actor, but no one
Speaker 1: ever went you better get ready to live out of
Speaker 1: a suitcase for the rest of your life and miss weddings,
Speaker 1: miss funerals, miss christenings, miss birthdays, miss big family events.
Speaker 1: Why is it so compelling?
Speaker 2: I think there is just something appealing about I don't
Speaker 2: know where I'll be this time, next month, or next year,
Speaker 2: and I feed off of that, and I think there's
Speaker 2: a certain element whether it's kind of partially self destructive
Speaker 2: or just the thrill of the unknown that your life
Speaker 2: hasn't fallen into a pattern, and because I personally wouldn't
Speaker 2: be able to enjoy that thing is. I don't know
Speaker 2: how people do it with families. I don't know how
Speaker 2: you manage it once you have kids, because you know,
Speaker 2: I've done this since I was twelve, and I've always
Speaker 2: been really free, like I can drop everything and go
Speaker 2: somewhere next week and just hop on a plane wherever
Speaker 2: I need to be. I can be. That has increasingly,
Speaker 2: like as I get older, I find it harder to
Speaker 2: realize how sometimes I can be the friend who can't
Speaker 2: really depend on. You know, I'm less dependable in my
Speaker 2: personal life because of all of this, and I'm struggling
Speaker 2: with that more and more as I get older.
Speaker 1: It's such a good point that I have felt like
Speaker 1: such a bad friend, even though I know my love
Speaker 1: remains constant always for my friends totally.
Speaker 2: But you kind of let yourself off the hook a
Speaker 2: little bit because it's always been this way, because it's
Speaker 2: always been this kind of you know, out of the blue,
Speaker 2: I'll be the other side of the world, and I
Speaker 2: forgot to mention that.
Speaker 1: It's a weird life. I don't have an enormous amount
Speaker 1: of friends, I think as a result of it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I have very few, but very very good friends, because
Speaker 1: you say exactly, you don't have the time to maintain
Speaker 1: the peripheral nice friendships that are lovely people to have
Speaker 1: over for dinner once every few months. But I don't
Speaker 1: have anyone like that because if I'm home, there are
Speaker 1: like four people that I've got to say, because I
Speaker 1: don't know when I'm going to be gone. Okay, so
Speaker 1: what question would you most like answered?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I've been racking my reins about this
Speaker 2: and I have no answer.
Speaker 1: I reject your question past.
Speaker 2: I'm someone who feels quite content with the unknown. I
Speaker 2: don't want to know about ma afterlife. I don't want
Speaker 2: to know.
Speaker 1: That's good though, that's very No one has ever said
Speaker 1: that I am extremely content with the unknown that's really present.
Speaker 2: It excites me more because it means that there's no
Speaker 2: definitive answer. It means it's just so much more space
Speaker 2: for your own interpretation or to just sit in it
Speaker 2: as is and makes you much more present. And I
Speaker 2: don't know, Yeah, not trying to control things with answers.
Speaker 1: So hold on. So you come from a family who,
Speaker 1: quite literally because they're journalists, are expected to have answers
Speaker 1: in a way about cultural relevance, about politics, the facts
Speaker 1: of science. So it feels like it was quite an
Speaker 1: answer based sort of environment. So how do you fit
Speaker 1: into that?
Speaker 2: I think it's the inverse, it's question based environment. So
Speaker 2: they source the answers from the experts, from the people
Speaker 2: who do know, and their job is to facilitate and
Speaker 2: ask the right questions to invite that conversation. And so
Speaker 2: maybe that's why then, because yeah, sitting around that table,
Speaker 2: it's always been the most intellectually simulating debates, but without
Speaker 2: any kind of definitive answer. It's always an awareness of
Speaker 2: unless you're stating statistics, your stating interpretation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because this all dovetails into the comfort
Speaker 1: level with untelledness. And I don't mean that in a
Speaker 1: way that it is applied to women and mental health.
Speaker 1: I mean in terms of of again the itinerancy of
Speaker 1: being an actor, the idea of being so present, or
Speaker 1: being more interested in the present than in the unknown,
Speaker 1: or sitting worrying about gosh, I wonder what the answer
Speaker 1: that is, rather than what is it relkas Head, keep
Speaker 1: asking the questions until you live the answers, so you
Speaker 1: live the answer in a present moment rather than sort
Speaker 1: of seeking it as this thing that's always just up ahead.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that keeps you open to the
Speaker 2: idea that there's no definitive answer, that it's just like
Speaker 2: a collection of information, and you kind of quilt that
Speaker 2: together and you're okay with that fas to form. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 2: because it frees me. I think I'm not trying to
Speaker 2: get to an end result. I think I would just
Speaker 2: kind of reject that.
Speaker 1: I say that to myself. I wrote a book with
Speaker 1: that as the central thesis, clearly because it is something
Speaker 1: I long to be able to really fundamentally. No, there
Speaker 1: is no there there. It is here and only here,
Speaker 1: and that's completely fine. That's brilliant.
Speaker 2: I think, isn't that the most freeing thing there? Because
Speaker 2: it's like this idea that I don't know, when you
Speaker 2: just sit in the idea that everything is made up
Speaker 2: and it's all just happening now and.
Speaker 1: It is all fiction. I agree, it is all and
Speaker 1: it's a fiction that.
Speaker 2: Is like, yeah, giant playground, and so it just immediately
Speaker 2: becomes I mean fascical.
Speaker 1: Look, I think you've got a right like you know,
Speaker 1: the Dow of Boynton Babes.
Speaker 2: The World by Lucy Winton.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love?
Speaker 1: For you?
Speaker 2: All my female friendships and predominantly only when I was
Speaker 2: thinking about this question that I actually take time to
Speaker 2: really like analyze the relationships in my life. And I
Speaker 2: think we talk about romantic relationships so much more and
Speaker 2: romanticize them, whereas like female friendships and best friendships, we
Speaker 2: just don't. And my friend Ellen and I we're best
Speaker 2: friend since we were eleven. It's been so unconditional, it's
Speaker 2: been so dependable, and we've just given each other so
Speaker 2: much grace to really grow and change as people, and
Speaker 2: in so many ways we're really different, and yet relentlessly
Speaker 2: we're still there for each other. And it's just it's
Speaker 2: kind of remarkable.
Speaker 1: What you just described is probably the ideal of what
Speaker 1: a relationship would be with a romantic partner, maybe just
Speaker 1: as women. That's how the trajectory has always been. That's
Speaker 1: what you're aiming for. I love that your definition of
Speaker 1: is the female friendship. You have the blueprint for that
Speaker 1: in your life and that one doesn't really need much
Speaker 1: outside of that. I don't think I'm very interested in
Speaker 1: why we're pushed on romantic relationships so much more than
Speaker 1: we are on the fundament of friendship with whomever. That is,
Speaker 1: whoever our best friends are, our best relationships are.
Speaker 2: I feel like that's all just so like entrenched in
Speaker 2: traditional and misogyny and women having to marry men in
Speaker 2: order to have a bank account, yeah, and be able
Speaker 2: to do anything exact. Now that that landscape is changing
Speaker 2: so much, I think the rhetoric is changing, and I
Speaker 2: think you're seeing it in a wave of women having
Speaker 2: much higher standards and saying kind of I'm actually not
Speaker 2: going to settle for this what previously you kind of
Speaker 2: had to. And I think part of that is like
Speaker 2: more fulfillment in your life in general, but also realizing, yeah,
Speaker 2: and these friendships you get.
Speaker 1: All of that, I mean, one hundred percent, and if you.
Speaker 2: Nurture that, it is such a strong foundation for your life.
Speaker 1: So interesting, You're right, like, I don't even think about
Speaker 1: the systemic programming that I have, what I realize, even
Speaker 1: though I have always longed just to do what I
Speaker 1: do for a living and acting has been this great passion, always, always,
Speaker 1: always this idea that I had to find that person
Speaker 1: to love and to love me, and that superseded everything,
Speaker 1: and that was always the quest, and that not happening
Speaker 1: until my late forties. I've realized I thought of that
Speaker 1: as a failure and it's such utter bollocks.
Speaker 2: Because it's this constant message that you're not enough on
Speaker 2: your own, and that women aren't enough on their own,
Speaker 2: certainty validated by the presence of a male partner. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then you're successful, Yeah, even if you've had the
Speaker 2: job all along. Then you're stamped with okay, decent person exactly.
Speaker 1: And the idea of belonging, like my boyfriend doesn't want
Speaker 1: to get married, my parents weren't married. Now I'm like,
Speaker 1: where does this come from?
Speaker 2: This?
Speaker 1: And it's an idea about belonging, of someone choosing me,
Speaker 1: because I think I was programmed to believe someone has
Speaker 1: to choose me, and when you look at what we
Speaker 1: do for a living, fundamentally that's also what it is.
Speaker 1: You have to get chosen over all the other people.
Speaker 1: But it really just comes back to lack of self worth.
Speaker 1: For me.
Speaker 2: I've done so much analysis of like why do women
Speaker 2: feel this way about it because of who my sister is.
Speaker 2: When I was sixteen, she handed me the book Kunt
Speaker 2: and told me that the patriarchy is taking advantage of me,
Speaker 2: and the tampon industry are taking advantage of me. Read up.
Speaker 1: Your sister should be talking in schools.
Speaker 2: She should be. She runs a monthly event, Sex Talks,
Speaker 2: and it's everyone leaving feeling empowered.
Speaker 1: And sounds like she was ahead of the curve because
Speaker 1: that word like empowerment, which is what women, particularly young women,
Speaker 1: I think, are getting to feel now for the first time,
Speaker 1: and it be acknowledged by outside forces. I'm much older
Speaker 1: than you, but I remember when my aunt and my
Speaker 1: mother were protesting at Greenham Common about the nuclear bombs
Speaker 1: that we were going to be housing, and I remember
Speaker 1: how they were just presented on the news as these
Speaker 1: dirty hippie women who were not tethered to families or people.
Speaker 1: They were so othered because they stepped out of exactly
Speaker 1: what you said, this heteronormative idea of what a woman
Speaker 1: is supposed to be, and all that stuff goes in
Speaker 1: and we are now I'm picking that. I watched my
Speaker 1: nieces and my friend's children and like you know, speaking
Speaker 1: to young women like you, it's so great to know
Speaker 1: that it's just not acceptable anymore, that you don't accept it.
Speaker 2: Still, it is happening so slowly, and you're grateful that
Speaker 2: it's happening across the board, but you realize how much
Speaker 2: of everything is entrenched in that. And still the media
Speaker 2: I think plays such a huge role in keeping us
Speaker 2: static in that in the differences of the way men
Speaker 2: and women are portrayed.
Speaker 1: What do you think do you think that we should
Speaker 1: be going on marches against the patriot I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of, like.
Speaker 2: What, I don't know, because it's so entrenched in our fabric.
Speaker 2: It's built by them for them. Supposedly, the answer is
Speaker 2: to pick a lane, so you can't disassemble the thing
Speaker 2: in its entirety all at once. So choose something that
Speaker 2: you're very passionate about changing and then start shipping away
Speaker 2: at it from there, so then everyone does that. I
Speaker 2: think that's a brilliant whole thing starts to crumble, and
Speaker 2: I do think that is the dissemination of information. That
Speaker 2: is about speaking with each other and going, oh my goodness,
Speaker 2: this is you feel this too, and this has been
Speaker 2: your experience too.
Speaker 1: So someone like looking at you and they would see
Speaker 1: a picture of you looking beautiful in a magazine and
Speaker 1: then there would maybe have the opportunity to listen to you,
Speaker 1: for example here or somewhere else and correlate. Ah, a beautiful,
Speaker 1: successful woman can also be interrogating ideas that need to
Speaker 1: disassemble shit that we've all just been accepting. And perhaps
Speaker 1: it's a very big ship and it is taking a
Speaker 1: really long fucking time to turn it around. I do
Speaker 1: think it's happening, but I agree with you the slowness
Speaker 1: of it is glacial and it's fucking annoying. I really
Speaker 1: like that. I like that about picking a lane, shipping
Speaker 1: away in that way.
Speaker 2: And I do think we're lucky because we do have
Speaker 2: the opportunity in this job to you know, even like
Speaker 2: with Chevalier this film, where you get to hold a
Speaker 2: mirror up to people that is kind of trojan horsing
Speaker 2: your message. You're getting to offer really tangible experience of
Speaker 2: empathy that is otherwise a more analytical process of someone
Speaker 2: having to read about a thing and then imagine, whereas
Speaker 2: with film and the entertainment industry, I think you are
Speaker 2: just offered it. There's very much more kind of visceral
Speaker 2: experience of that, and.
Speaker 1: It's immersive too. It's a very elegant way of giving
Speaker 1: meaning to what we do beyond the sort of raw
Speaker 1: going to the movies. Having an experience, particularly with stories
Speaker 1: like Chevalier, you can introduce an essentially a raised story
Speaker 1: and it be beautiful and entertaining and devastating and raw.
Speaker 1: So that's very interesting. You see what person, place, or
Speaker 1: experience most altered your life.
Speaker 2: This is going to be such an obvious answer, but
Speaker 2: it's starting this job when I was twelve. Well, my
Speaker 2: first job was playing the young bittrick s Potter and
Speaker 2: Miss Potter so cute, and I think I didn't realize
Speaker 2: how much this job has impacted my formation of self
Speaker 2: until I started doing therapy and in our first session,
Speaker 2: I was going through the trajectory of my life so
Speaker 2: that she kind of understand who I was, and then
Speaker 2: part of it was you know, and then I started
Speaker 2: acting at like eleven twelve, and she's like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: that's going to be a big one. I was like, no, no, no, Honestly,
Speaker 2: I have such a healthy relationship with it, like you know,
Speaker 2: another actors present in the families you know, expectations, not
Speaker 2: controlling parents by any means really supportive, solid foundation or
Speaker 2: good or good. And then we started to unpick it,
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh no, this is the source of
Speaker 2: so much shit to be untangled.
Speaker 1: So what pit one thing just because I'm fascinated because
Speaker 1: you're so little and such a formative moment, Yeah, what
Speaker 1: is one pathway that that led you down that you've
Speaker 1: had to unpick?
Speaker 2: I mean the main two is obedience and then trusting
Speaker 2: my own feelings. So I find that my relationship with
Speaker 2: obedience was the main thing that came out of these
Speaker 2: therapy sessions that I was really stunned by and disappointed with,
Speaker 2: because I think in most workforces in industries, obedience is rewarded,
Speaker 2: and especially obedience without question is rewarded. But in our industry,
Speaker 2: I think there are really tangible ways that's rewarded. And
Speaker 2: from the bare minimum, the way that you're hitting your mark,
Speaker 2: you turn up with all your lines.
Speaker 1: Learned, someone else always has the last word, yeah.
Speaker 2: And obedience becomes really tangible and constantly reinforcement, especially as
Speaker 2: a child, and I think as a young girl to
Speaker 2: have obedience as a kind of a goal every day
Speaker 2: in a very tangible way, and your work environment is
Speaker 2: really odd.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And my sister has always challenged every source of authority
Speaker 2: around her. She just kind of arrived that way, and
Speaker 2: I became the antithesis of that, and I hate it.
Speaker 2: I don't challenge authority enough and have to make such
Speaker 2: a concerted effort to do that as I get older.
Speaker 2: And it's not even like seeking validation or praise. It's
Speaker 2: just seeking confirmation that you've done the thing or exceeded it.
Speaker 2: And that's it. It's not that I need the praise,
Speaker 2: it's that the box has been checked. And I've always
Speaker 2: looked outside of myself for that confirmation rather than do
Speaker 2: I feel like I've done it? Or am I aware
Speaker 2: that I've done enough?
Speaker 1: God, that's so interesting, Lucie.
Speaker 2: So that was the one thing and then the other. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was trusting my own feelings because this job is
Speaker 2: really odd, and that as much as your brain knows
Speaker 2: or you can analytically know that this is a separate
Speaker 2: person to yourself, a separate experience to yourself, your body
Speaker 2: still experiences the chemical reactions to whatever you're telling it
Speaker 2: you're going through. So from that age, I haven't solely
Speaker 2: been me, and so I find it hard to tap
Speaker 2: into my gut instinct and to know my own feelings
Speaker 2: and thoughts through and through I really challenged them. I
Speaker 2: don't completely trust them because I'm constantly changing them. I'm
Speaker 2: constantly leaning into someone very different from myself.
Speaker 1: Do you find that, because in a way, the more
Speaker 1: one is not oneself, it actually throws into relief who
Speaker 1: you are. The more you feel not yourself, you get
Speaker 1: to actually then connect with Oh goodness, that is actually
Speaker 1: very other than who I am.
Speaker 2: Yes and no, Yes, when I'm playing someone really far
Speaker 2: from myself. But in recent years, I've played more characters
Speaker 2: who were more similar to parts of me, or parts
Speaker 2: of me that I wanted to exercise more and lean into.
Speaker 2: And so then when they start to bleed into one another, yeah,
Speaker 2: I do find it hard to find myself and I
Speaker 2: do feel like I have I'm not kind of floating
Speaker 2: between personalities. I do have a strong sense of self.
Speaker 2: I just find that hard to trust sometimes.
Speaker 1: And it's so interesting, And when you're talking about obedience,
Speaker 1: it's so funny how it's like there's a whole universe
Speaker 1: of expansion going on behind the incredibly structured notion of
Speaker 1: like obedience and ticking the boxes and playing by the
Speaker 1: rules so that you have an exterior that is cool.
Speaker 1: And then I love I love talking to you because
Speaker 1: it is like there's this whole universe of freedom going
Speaker 1: on behind it, which is fantastic, because I got to
Speaker 1: tell you, without one you sound patronizing. As you get older,
Speaker 1: that universe of expansion just becomes more and more and
Speaker 1: more who you are and what you live.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm already feeling that more since the age of
Speaker 2: twenty seven onwards. I've felt that more than ever, that
Speaker 2: I'm turning away from things that don't feed me anymore
Speaker 2: and that I was locked into focusing on even though
Speaker 2: it didn't help help me. And also just yeah, that
Speaker 2: freedom of just like everything is made up, and so
Speaker 2: I think part of that because you can slot into
Speaker 2: so many different identities with this work, the idea of
Speaker 2: the ultimate self isn't so precious. I'm not as protective
Speaker 2: of it. It's much more of a fluid thing. So
Speaker 2: that's a good thing and then also a harder thing
Speaker 2: because you can tap into any feeling, any point of
Speaker 2: view and all of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it really does. I think what's really great
Speaker 1: is that it doesn't sound like you punish yourself for
Speaker 1: the person that you were, but rather they're sort of
Speaker 1: continuing to fold into the person that you're becoming, which
Speaker 1: maybe is a really healthy way. You know, we take
Speaker 1: all of our imperfection with us in our little backpack
Speaker 1: as we move along without being angry about it, which
Speaker 1: I think is what keeps us stuck as people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I used to do that a
Speaker 2: lot when I was younger, like stepping out of the
Speaker 2: way that I wanted to be was unacceptable and kind
Speaker 2: of punishable, whereas now it's just kind of like everyone's
Speaker 2: winging it.
Speaker 1: And do you think that you more trust your own
Speaker 1: feelings or is that something that you continue to kind
Speaker 1: of have to work on, or do you feel that
Speaker 1: you do it more naturally now?
Speaker 2: I think I'm less analytical of it of just like
Speaker 2: observe the feelings and let it pass, and then what
Speaker 2: resonates and what is true will keep coming back and
Speaker 2: you'll circle round to it again. And also just yeah,
Speaker 2: there's a kind of detachment from permanence. So it's like
Speaker 2: my mum has always said it to us, and I
Speaker 2: always repeat it to my sister and my friends. Of
Speaker 2: like all of your feelings are valid. Just listen to that,
Speaker 2: and it doesn't mean that it has to stick, but
Speaker 2: just like observe it and then let it pass. So
Speaker 2: I think I'm learning to like justify myself less by
Speaker 2: kind of clinging to those feelings and just living it
Speaker 2: all flow. There's this book The Island by Aldus Huxley,
Speaker 2: and in it there's this paragraphs that just says, go lightly,
Speaker 2: and it just talks about like it's dark because you're
Speaker 2: trying too hard. Go lightly lightly, And it's just the
Speaker 2: most beautiful of just like we're so trying to clutch
Speaker 2: to these things that we think are true and real
Speaker 2: in us, and actually there's so much that we said
Speaker 2: for just letting it go and just being and observing
Speaker 2: and then letting it pass.
Speaker 1: I love that, Gosh, particularly with the more challenging things
Speaker 1: in life, to go lightly when you feel like you're
Speaker 1: being pulled into the abyss of whether it's grief or
Speaker 1: sadness or depression or whatever. To be able to remember
Speaker 1: that in those moments is so wonderful because it's simple
Speaker 1: and it's direct, and it's actually prescriptive, which is great.
Speaker 2: I know, it's kind of cliche, but it is, it
Speaker 2: is how it shall be exactly. I've got the full thing.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it'd be so lovely. Read it.
Speaker 2: Yes, lightly, child, lightly, learn to do everything lightly. Yes,
Speaker 2: feel lightly, even though you're feeling deeply, Just lightly let
Speaker 2: things happen and lightly cope with them. I was so
Speaker 2: preposterously serious in those days. Such a humorous, little prig.
Speaker 2: Lightly lightly is the best advice ever given me when
Speaker 2: it comes to dying. Even nothing ponderous or potentious or emphatic,
Speaker 2: no rhetoric or tremulose, no self conscious persona putting on
Speaker 2: its celebrated imitation of Christ or little Nell, and of course,
Speaker 2: no theology, no metaphysics, just the fact of dying and
Speaker 2: the fact of the clear light. So throw away your
Speaker 2: baggage and go forward. Here A quick sounds all about you,
Speaker 2: sucking at your feet, trying to suck you down into
Speaker 2: fear and self pity and despair. That's why you must
Speaker 2: walk so lightly, lightly, my darling, on tiptoes, and no luggage,
Speaker 2: not even a spongebag, completely unencumbered.
Speaker 1: Oh lows, No, I'm crying.
Speaker 2: Isn't it beautiful?
Speaker 1: The fact of the clear light?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that book is full of that kind of sentiment
Speaker 2: of it's definitely a little dated in areas, but it's
Speaker 2: full of understanding small self in the big, big landscape.
Speaker 1: Exactly. Gosh, I don't have anything to add to that
Speaker 1: is so beautifully said and so beautifully put in your life.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me something that has grown out of
Speaker 1: a personal disaster?
Speaker 2: The ability to self soothe and the understanding that the
Speaker 2: most impactful strength is self sourced. So when I've been
Speaker 2: going through a really difficult time and I'm still in
Speaker 2: the thick of it and still drowning in the feelings
Speaker 2: and going through it and realizing that I'm coping and
Speaker 2: that I'm getting through something that I didn't think I
Speaker 2: had the kind of ability to the equipment too that
Speaker 2: I thought would be that would wash me away and hasn't.
Speaker 2: I'm still here and I'm just coping.
Speaker 1: So would you say that's like there are moments where
Speaker 1: you get to be the observer around turmoil and can
Speaker 1: see that you're sitting there shuddering and sad or whatever
Speaker 1: the moment is, but you can see I am actually
Speaker 1: still here and I am coping with it, and that's
Speaker 1: the thing that will carry you on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that I'm stronger than I thought I was. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that you're more unshakable than you think you are and
Speaker 2: not that and that doesn't mean any lack of a
Speaker 2: kind of emotional response or impact. It hasn't you, but
Speaker 2: it just means you'll go out the other side. There's
Speaker 2: this Emmy lou Harris song Boulded of Birmingham that she
Speaker 2: wrote when Grandpasons died, and in it one of the
Speaker 2: most devastating lyrics is well you really got me this
Speaker 2: time And the hardest part is knowing I'll survive, And
Speaker 2: that I think resonates so much of just like regardless
Speaker 2: of the intensity or severity the loss, the grief, you
Speaker 2: come out the other side and you look back. And
Speaker 2: I think that's why it's also important to always keep
Speaker 2: a diary, because then I look back on these moments
Speaker 2: where I was just like drowning in it, and here
Speaker 2: I am a year later or whatever or however long after,
Speaker 2: and having grown from it.
Speaker 1: Would that be your how too? In terms of a
Speaker 1: practical application, that keeping a diary, that journaling, that being
Speaker 1: able to physicalize the emotions that you're going through and
Speaker 1: then being able to revisit it and see that you've
Speaker 1: evolved or that you moved on from it. Is that
Speaker 1: a practical application, do you think?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I think just in terms of also having
Speaker 2: to verbalize, having to articulate exactly how you feel. And
Speaker 2: there are times when I'm writing and it's like I'm
Speaker 2: just not getting it, I'm not conveying it. So I
Speaker 2: keep writing and it's such a cathartic purging of your feelings,
Speaker 2: so that then I'm aware don't take as much of
Speaker 2: it to someone else, and it stays kind of ugly
Speaker 2: in its honesty, and so it can be much more cleansing.
Speaker 2: And then you look back on it and it's just
Speaker 2: this constant reminder of everything returns to the middle. It
Speaker 2: goes really high, and it goes really low, and it
Speaker 2: always comes back to the middle. Everything passes, and so
Speaker 2: it is kind of moving to look back on that
Speaker 2: and realize you're own strength, or realize, like, my god,
Speaker 2: what a huge reaction. I'm fine, it was fine, And
Speaker 2: I was young. I know.
Speaker 1: That's so funny. We've been moving around since COVID, into
Speaker 1: so different countries, different houses, and I found a box
Speaker 1: of diaries and one of the entries from when I
Speaker 1: was ten and it was so funny. It literally went,
Speaker 1: this is my last entry because I am going to die.
Speaker 1: I have so many of them, I mean so dramatic,
Speaker 1: and I.
Speaker 2: Have so many like that around ten years old, and
Speaker 2: it's like my sister is annoying me so much, she
Speaker 2: is going to cause me a half stack. I'm going
Speaker 2: to die. Here's my will. I need everything to my sister.
Speaker 1: Sisters. What would be your last meal?
Speaker 2: Pancakes?
Speaker 1: Now hold please? Do you mean the thick American pancakes
Speaker 1: that we did not grow up eating? Or do you
Speaker 1: mean the thin pancakes that we would have on shrive Tuesday?
Speaker 1: Thank you?
Speaker 2: Exactly, absolutely, the thin, thin pancakes from shrive Tuesday.
Speaker 1: That's a great exactly.
Speaker 2: Americans grapes with lemon jam, A huge stack of them.
Speaker 2: I used to just put them away on my mom.
Speaker 1: That's so funny. My mother used to stand at the
Speaker 1: stove and she would be there for forty five.
Speaker 2: Minutes after the other, after the other, after It's.
Speaker 1: Also about the heat of the pan, you know, once
Speaker 1: it's got to the optimum.
Speaker 5: Because she would always pancakes for the doll ones. They
Speaker 5: would always be and once it's got to that brilliant temperature. Also,
Speaker 5: I would be able to defend in a court of
Speaker 5: law that lemon and sugar is the greatest of all
Speaker 5: the saturations and toppings.
Speaker 1: It beats, it.
Speaker 2: Beats everything there with you.
Speaker 1: And people have tried to took me into natlla and banana.
Speaker 1: I've actually even tried to took me into jam. I
Speaker 1: cannot ever leave lemon and sugar.
Speaker 2: Jam with a little bit of lemon, I do recommend
Speaker 2: a sin sin.
Speaker 1: That may because you have to have that sharp sour.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's why. That's why the lemon and sugar.
Speaker 1: Just oh my god, it's so it's so true. I
Speaker 1: do remember being in a really fancy restaurant with my
Speaker 1: dad when I was probably about nine, so inappropriately in
Speaker 1: this very fancy restaurant and they were making crepe suzette
Speaker 1: at the table. So they were making these pancakes and
Speaker 1: they light the pan on fire, and the guy he'd
Speaker 1: done this huge performance, and I remember we put the
Speaker 1: pancake on my plate with a flourish and I remember
Speaker 1: standing up and going, it is just a pancake. And
Speaker 1: my dad was just horrified and he was like, shut up,
Speaker 1: it's crepes, is it? And I was like no, it
Speaker 1: is a pancake, like mummakes fraud. It I was calling fraud.
Speaker 1: It was like everyone was agreeing that this was something
Speaker 1: that clearly was not.
Speaker 2: But that's the kid that I wanted to be. That's
Speaker 2: the kid with the lack of obedience that challenges the
Speaker 2: status quo.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Lucy, it's so interesting because like.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: I was that child.
Speaker 2: I'm so jealous.
Speaker 3: But you know what.
Speaker 1: Happens to that person is you get beaten by that,
Speaker 1: You get absolutely rounded on for being that. It's so
Speaker 1: interesting that there is clearly a punishment, and I think
Speaker 1: it is particularly for young women. Absolutely if you are
Speaker 1: left having to unpick the not speaking out, and if
Speaker 1: you speak out, believe me, you will get savaged. But
Speaker 1: there's no easy way out of it.
Speaker 2: And I wonder if at least it has to be
Speaker 2: getting better. So more and more women doing that is
Speaker 2: more and more examples to young girls who then become that.
Speaker 2: And so I keep using her as a reference because
Speaker 2: I look up to her so much. But my sister
Speaker 2: has faced that and now it doesn't seem to shake
Speaker 2: her because she's been able to look to those women
Speaker 2: and see that and be like I want to be
Speaker 2: the loud voice rather than the quiet acceptance.
Speaker 1: Well, maybe there's the middle path as well, that the
Speaker 1: loud voice also eventually doesn't become the loud voice exactly,
Speaker 1: it becomes the voice. It becomes the voice of reason.
Speaker 2: But also the loud voice has been the voice of reason.
Speaker 2: It's just been such an unreasonable environment. That's exactly is
Speaker 2: protest to state the most obvious.
Speaker 1: That feels like it goes into exactly what you were saying.
Speaker 1: You choose the path that you can actually affect change on,
Speaker 1: and perhaps that is speaking to the young actors that
Speaker 1: you then work with. That's when you work with a
Speaker 1: twelve year old actress, it's a very different conversation than
Speaker 1: someone was perhaps having with you. I've found that on sets,
Speaker 1: like my area of expertise is that I am now
Speaker 1: a fifty three year old version of maybe the twenty
Speaker 1: three year old woman that I'm also working with. So
Speaker 1: there's so much exchange. There is so much that can
Speaker 1: be offered between the two of us, which then forges
Speaker 1: a pat and also the young men who are then
Speaker 1: observing and listening to those conversations or that we're having
Speaker 1: conversations with. That is how you fashion a different narrative
Speaker 1: is by having that narrative totally.
Speaker 2: And I think you can see the progress and that
Speaker 2: happening of it being less a priority to be a
Speaker 2: quote unquote team player in our industry where I'm very
Speaker 2: aware that I've come into the industry or at least
Speaker 2: become an adult at a time when enough women have
Speaker 2: been saying that, don't prioritize being liked. Because see, even
Speaker 2: when you're a team player, I don't know, it's just
Speaker 2: having to learn to be comfortable with people being uncomfortable
Speaker 2: by you just stand up for yourself and it's worth it,
Speaker 2: and it's so uncomfortable at the time, and you feel
Speaker 2: like such a problem.
Speaker 1: I've noticed. It's the way that one delivers. Yes is
Speaker 1: what you do. And I hate that the idea that
Speaker 1: a woman has to sort of speak more quietly or
Speaker 1: she's called shrill. But it's not that. It's sort of
Speaker 1: about being a human and going no, no, no, I
Speaker 1: connect with what I'm saying, and I can have the
Speaker 1: patience to say what I need to say in a
Speaker 1: way that it is more likely to be heard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you don't have to rise to the way
Speaker 2: that it's been brought to you. Yeah, you can be
Speaker 2: there in issue too.
Speaker 1: Respect Oh Lucy, it's just been the most wonderful conversation.
Speaker 1: It's so brilliant talking to you. You're such a fantastic person,
Speaker 1: you really are. I'm so glad that you're out there working.
Speaker 1: You're such a great actor and you're such an excellent person.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, and also thank
Speaker 2: you so much for doing this podcast, and thank you
Speaker 2: for all the times you have been the loudest voice
Speaker 2: and honestly, profusely, profusely grateful for you.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Darling.
Speaker 1: One Fantastic Mini Questions is hosted and written by Me
Speaker 1: Mini Driver, Executive produced by Me and Aaron Kaufman, with
Speaker 1: production support from Jennifer Bassett, Zoey Denkler and Ali Perry.
Speaker 3: The theme music is also by Me and additional music
Speaker 3: by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Jim Nikolay Addison, O'Day, Henry Driver, Lisa Castella,
Speaker 1: Anick Oppenheim, A, Nick Muller and Annette Wolfe, A wkpr,
Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Nicki Etoor, Morgan Lavoy and Mangesh had Tickadore