1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Cause Media. 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's James Today 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 2: and I'm joined again by Kevin McDonald. Kevin is a 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: retired officer fine the Irish Defense Forces with some special 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 2: forces and peacekeeping experience. Welcome to the show, Kevin. 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 3: Thanks, thanks very much for having me. And just as 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 3: a sort of disclaimer at the very start, any viewser 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 3: opinions that I expressed, the opinions of a retired senior 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 3: officers from the Irish Defense Forces can't be construed has 10 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 3: been in any way the views of the Irish Defense Forces, 11 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 3: not indeed that of the United Nations. So I just 12 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 3: wanted to but that I was there before we get 13 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 3: into it. 14 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, not a UN or an Irish Defense Forces spokesperson. 15 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: Not that we've had many of those suppose on our show, Kevin. 16 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: We're here today to talk a little bit about the 17 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 2: situation in Congo and and perhaps more specifically like how 18 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 2: the peacekeeping mission there has evolved and changed and sort 19 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,319 Speaker 2: of morphed over the years. So maybe just to begin with, 20 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 2: I can give an idea that like this city of Goma, 21 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 2: which is the capital of North Kivu Province, has recently 22 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: been captured by m twenty three rebels would explain who 23 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 2: they are people who an't familiar in a minute. It's 24 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 2: a city of about a million people. I believe that's 25 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: saying around three thousand people have been killed in this operation, 26 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: which is I mean, it's a massive. 27 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,559 Speaker 3: Death toll in a short space of time, very. 28 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 2: Short space of time. Yeah, And some of the other 29 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: stuff I've heard, like at one point there's a prison 30 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: within the city which there was a jail break, and 31 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: they think a hundred of the women who were incarcerated 32 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 2: there were sexually assaulted and in some cases burned alive 33 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: after the jail break happened. Thousands of Congolese military and 34 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: police have surrendered a contingent of I believe Romanian private 35 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: military contractors were captured. 36 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 3: Yes, captured, surrendered either where they went into Rwanda. I 37 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 3: think about three hundred of them, which is a significant 38 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: amount of mercenaries. 39 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, especially when we're talking about Romania, which is 40 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 2: not a vast country. 41 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 42 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: Understandably, a lot of things are happening in the US, 43 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: so people may have missed it, and like I think 44 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: people in the US, just due to the nature of 45 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: news being quite naval gazing here may not be as 46 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: familiar with the conflict in Congo, Like if they know 47 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 2: about it, it's from Warren's Evon songs or maybe from 48 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: maybe from a couple. 49 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 3: Of films, Lyer's Gone and Money. Yeah. 50 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the other one? 51 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 3: Roland, the Thompson Ganna. That's the yeah, Lowland, the headless Thompson. 52 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: That's it. That's the one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So let's 53 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: talk then about the various United Nations peacekeeping missions in Congo. 54 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: They've been there for since the nineteen sixties, is it 55 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: on and off? 56 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 3: Yeah? So the first mission in the Congo was or 57 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 3: No in nineteen sixty, and a lot of people would 58 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: say that that was the first UN mission, but as 59 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 3: I think we discussed the last time, the first YU 60 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 3: went mission was full scale war in nineteen fifty in Korea. Yeah, 61 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 3: and that mission is still in existence the UNC, the 62 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 3: United Nations Command. But I suppose speaking about the Congo specifically. 63 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 3: So in nineteen sixty there was seventeen newly independent states, 64 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 3: of which fourteen were from Africa, agreed to a call 65 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 3: from the U went to establish this mission in the Congo, 66 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 3: and Ireland answered the call as well, so we deployed 67 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 3: it was the first time that we deployed with the 68 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 3: UN and we had a battalion there from nineteen sixty 69 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 3: to I think nineteen sixty whenever the initial deployment ended, 70 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: and it was a fairly tough, intense introduction to peacekeeping. 71 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 3: In the early in nineteen sixty there was an engagement 72 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 3: between an Irish platoon and a large group of Beluba 73 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 3: tribesmen and there was nine Irish soldiers killed and twenty 74 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 3: six Belubas killed, and that was the first time that 75 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: Ireland kind of had to deal with that kind of 76 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: death overseas, so it was pretty traumatic. And then in 77 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty one, you've probably seen the film The Siege 78 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 3: of Jariteville, but it recounts the true story of an 79 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 3: Irish company under COMMONDA. Pack Quendlin. His company was one 80 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty eight roughly strong, and they were attacked 81 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 3: while they were at mass on a Sunday morning by 82 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 3: a group of between three and four thousand Catanganese well 83 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 3: armed soldiers backed up by French and Belgium and South 84 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 3: African mercenaries. They also had an attack helicopter and they 85 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: had an attack chest. 86 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 2: I think he had some of the old Rhodesis in 87 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: there as well at that time. 88 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah, unfortunately, anything for a fight, 89 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 3: but the Irish held out for I think over a week, 90 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: and they didn't give up when they ran out of water, 91 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: they didn't give up when they ran out of food. 92 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 3: It was when they had no bullets left they negotiated 93 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 3: a surrender thanks to the skill of the officers and 94 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: NCOs and men. Not one fatality on the Irish side. Unfortunately, 95 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 3: when they came home because they had surrendered, they were 96 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 3: treated like praias. For years it was seen like a 97 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 3: state on the nation. Now if God forbid, they had 98 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 3: fifty percent casualties that have been treated like heroes. Yeah yeah, 99 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 3: and it's only in recent years that they're getting the 100 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 3: recognition that they should have got back in nineteen sixty one. 101 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. I know they've been treated that way. 102 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 2: It's quite sad to hear. 103 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a strange one and a lot of 104 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 3: the people that we will say shunning these officers and 105 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 3: NCOs and men. It's happened to serve to overseas and 106 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 3: like if the UN they tried once to resupply them 107 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 3: with ammunition from the year, but it wasn't successful, So 108 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 3: if the UN had fully supported that company, they would 109 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 3: have held out even longer. But I suppose that's that's 110 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 3: the way things things go. So that's the first mission 111 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 3: to the Congo, and I could be corrected. I think 112 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 3: sixty four or sixty five. It might have sort of 113 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 3: started to draw down then in nineteen ninety nine, after 114 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 3: it was the first the second war, or the UN 115 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 3: established monarch monu See and that lasted from nineteen ninety 116 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 3: nine until twenty ten when it was renamed and rechanged 117 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 3: into MINUSCO. And the difference between the two is that 118 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 3: MINUSCO is what we call an integrated mission, and the 119 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 3: three pillars of an integrated mission are the restoration of 120 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 3: the rule of law, the protection of civilians, and the 121 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 3: provision for long term recovery and democratic governance. So it's 122 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 3: combining we'll say, the force of a military presence, but 123 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 3: also there's special advises on justice and policing, on governance, 124 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 3: all that sort of stuff which you wouldn't have an 125 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 3: emission like UNIFILM, which we discussed the last time, yeah, 126 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 3: which is the earlier form of peacekeeping. So MINUSCO was 127 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: supposed to have left the country in twenty twenty four, 128 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 3: but they were given a I think a one year extension. Yeah, 129 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 3: and unfortunately now with the twenty three rebel advance, the 130 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 3: mission is relocating most of its staff evacuating others. The 131 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 3: difference between the two terms is very specific. You relocate 132 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 3: within the country and you evacuate out of the country. 133 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 3: And I also note that the some of the Hybrid 134 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 3: African Union peacekeeping operations there was I think thirteen South 135 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 3: Africans killed and in the initial stages of the of 136 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 3: the onslaught towards towards going. So that that's kind of 137 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: where we are with the with the I think at 138 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: the at its height with in twenty one twenty two, 139 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 3: there was probably a strength of twenty thousand. But if 140 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 3: you think the DRC is the second largest country in Africa, 141 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 3: vast and the eleventh largest country in the world, just 142 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 3: the size of just phenomenal. So you can imagine what 143 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 3: the Congo and this entire no more than Sudan, but 144 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 3: what the Congo and its entirety was back in the day. Yeah, 145 00:07:58,400 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 3: absolutely huge. 146 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's asked. It encompasses different climates, own different ethnic groups, 147 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: as we're seeing. 148 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 3: Right, two hundred main ethnic groups. 149 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's a fascinating place. It's a place 150 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: I've wanted to go for a long time. I spent 151 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: some time on the Congo Rwanda border a few years ago. 152 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: I'm not so far from going er actually like riding 153 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 2: riding my bike around, and it's a very interesting place 154 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: in terms of what Rwanda is a very interesting place 155 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 2: in terms of its relation to its neighbors. I think 156 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: people will probably struggle to conceptualize. I actually saw somebody 157 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: had posted on Twitter, somebody who talks about Syria mostly 158 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: like how on Earth is Rwanda invading Congo? And they 159 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: had like a picture, you know, and the land mass 160 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 2: of Rwanda. Ruanda is one of the smaller countries in Africa, 161 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 2: and Congo is obviously a vast country. Are you comfortable 162 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 2: explaining a little bit of like the Rwandan involvement. 163 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 3: It's complicated and it goes back to the it is 164 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 3: genocide back in ninety four ninety four, I think you yeah. 165 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 3: And the the two Kivus, North and South Kivu, which 166 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 3: is on the border with Rwanda, there's a large amount 167 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 3: of ethnic Tutsis Congolese Tutsis there. I think what Rwanda 168 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 3: has always projected force into the Two Kivus and Catanga 169 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 3: because like literally that that's that's where the money is. 170 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 3: Of course Rwanda would say they don't, but they are 171 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 3: actively supporting and empty industry and have and most of 172 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: the twenty three, certainly the leadership would be ethnic conglese Utsis. 173 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: So ostensibly I think the raison deaths for Romanda's involvement 174 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 3: was to protect the ethnic Tutsis from Hutus that had 175 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: escaped from the from the the genocide. So it's complicated, 176 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 3: but if you kind of part those complications and think 177 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 3: of the money trail, it kind of leads to the 178 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 3: Two Kivus because seventy percent of the world's bolt, I think, 179 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 3: is kind of located between the Two Kivus, and then 180 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 3: you have gold, diamonds, all the other sort of rich minerals. 181 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, incredible wealth in Congo. 182 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but I was reading that the estimated deposits 183 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 3: in eastern Congo is something like twenty three trillion, Like 184 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 3: it's off the wall stuff. Yeah, So it's no wonder 185 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 3: it's become the battleground that it has essentially since nineteen 186 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 3: sixty because in nineteen sixty, after getting independence, the Kivu 187 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 3: and Katanga wanted to secede back by belt and that's 188 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 3: kind of what kicked off a lot of the conflict 189 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty and the reverberations from that are still 190 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 3: are still kind of being felt and been exploited because 191 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 3: everyone wants to get a piece of the action, like 192 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 3: all the surrounding countries. So yeah, I see, I think 193 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 3: it was yesterday that the they're planning a meeting. I 194 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 3: think it's this week or this weekend to try and 195 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 3: resolve the afflict. And this time they're going to try 196 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 3: and include entry twenty three in the in the amazing 197 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 3: rather than ex Google. I don't think that the choice. 198 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 3: I mean they're heading down to Book of Auso. 199 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean A twenty three have said that they're 200 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 2: going for sort of the whole country now that they're 201 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: not you know, it's not as not a regional or 202 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: like you know, ethnic movement so much as a and 203 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: that they will M twenty three would say that they're 204 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: not like per se ethnic separatists, right, like I think 205 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 2: they would claim that they're like a Liberation of Congo force. 206 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 2: And then you've Burundi supporting the Congolese government. You know 207 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,959 Speaker 2: that there's all kinds of as you say, like regional 208 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 2: and international actors because of the wealth in Congo, and 209 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 2: like let's Congo emerge from the DC emerged from its 210 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: colonial past. Right, it's always been destabilized by these actors, 211 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: both regional and international, who who wanted a piece of 212 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 2: that mineral wealth, and then they've created and sustained these 213 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: differences which have become I think there's some evidence to 214 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: suggest that, like certainly that they're like the ethnic differences 215 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 2: have become more pronounced and more like intransigent, I suppose, 216 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 2: or like you know, it's become more difficult for those 217 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 2: ethnic groups to co exist over time due to decades 218 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: of conflict, right and killing, and it's a very difficult 219 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: situation and it leaves people like the civilians living in 220 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 2: Goma today in a terrible situation where I think this 221 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 2: is the fifth time that people have attacked Goma, Like 222 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 2: it's certainly I think the last time was about twenty twelve, 223 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 2: was it when the last time M twenty three took Goma? 224 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's that's when the which we've probably just 225 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 3: gossed later, the Force and Invention Brigade. Yeah, we took 226 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 3: Goma in twenty thirteen in a relatively shar space of time. Yeah, 227 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 3: compared to how long we took to more, they regained 228 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 3: it very quickly. 229 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think we break for adverts now. I'd 230 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: like to come back and discuss the Force Intervention Brigade 231 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 2: because I think it's something that people ought to understand 232 00:12:53,720 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 2: when we talk about peacekeeping. And we're back, okay, So, yeah, 233 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: you mentioned the Force Internsian Brigade, which is something a 234 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 2: bit unique within peacekeeping, and there's a lot of like 235 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: when people talk about peacekeeping, they'll be like, oh, why 236 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: aren't they fighting? Why aren't they like going and stopping 237 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 2: the things? And I understand why people ask that, So 238 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 2: can you explain a little bit about what the FIB 239 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 2: was and what it did. 240 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 3: The concept of the Force Interventional Brigade was I think, 241 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 3: to my knowledge, it's the first UN mission that developed 242 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 3: that concept, and they actually changed the mandate to include 243 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,599 Speaker 3: an offensive capability for U and troops as opposed to 244 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 3: defensive or separation of war in factions. This was full 245 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 3: on war fighting and what they had figured out because 246 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 3: the DRC is so big, but the footprint even with 247 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: twenty thousand troops the footprint on the ground was not 248 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 3: sufficient to say, as I said, one of the three 249 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 3: pillars of an integrated emissions protection of civilians, and they 250 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 3: were finding that very difficult. So they decided to use 251 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 3: a concept of protection by projection rather than protection by presence. 252 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 3: So not alone did they have the force and digans 253 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 3: from brigade, they had the joint protection teams and also 254 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 3: an idea of a rapidly deployable battalion. So the idea 255 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 3: was that the force and Divention Brigade would say, do 256 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 3: the heavy lifting, and then when hotspots that flare up, 257 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 3: they could choose either the rapidly deployed out the battalions 258 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 3: or the joint protection teams. So the idea was that 259 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 3: rather than having static positions trying to protect people, they 260 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: would go where the action was. That was the idea, 261 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 3: and in fairness, the FIB had artillery, martor snipers, attack helicopters, UAVs, 262 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 3: special forces then retook Gum And I don't know the 263 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: exact timeframe, but I think it was less than a 264 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 3: month of the problems and I think we touched one 265 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 3: at the last time we spoke, and I think this 266 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 3: was a specific problem to the how the FIB didn't 267 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 3: really keep going the way it should have is that 268 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 3: two of the men TCCs were Tanza, Vegan and South Africa, 269 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 3: and they would have had slightly different agendas in terms 270 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 3: of who they should and they shouldn't attack based on 271 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 3: the government's position. Sorry, true country from the countries. Excuse me, 272 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 3: I should have said that. 273 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a sea of acronyms here. I've tried 274 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: to avoid all these faction acronyms, but yeah, yeah, explain 275 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: that a bit, because when people think of the UN 276 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: or in peacekeepers or troop contributing countries, the only time 277 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 2: it comes on the news in sort of the global 278 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: north is when people from say Northern Europe or North 279 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 2: America are part of these UN peacekeeping missions. So they 280 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: think of people British troops, America and Canadian what have you, 281 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: yea in their blue helmets. Right that the vast bulk 282 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: of TCCs don't come from from Northern Europe. Right in Africa, 283 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 2: that the majority of TCC's or other African countries, I 284 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: think I'm right saying it's a majority. 285 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like like here here in in South Sudan, most 286 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 3: of the big battalions are Wanda, Nepal, Mongolia, China. Generally speaking, 287 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 3: in my experience in the Central African Republic and and 288 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 3: here a lot of the battalions come from Africa, which 289 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 3: which is fair enough. I mean it's it's their continent. Yeah, 290 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 3: and they should have a they should have a stake 291 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 3: in trying to faster piece and develop peace and and 292 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 3: and help countries in less or more dire situations than 293 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 3: they themselves perhaps are. So it's understandral point about about 294 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 3: different countries being aware of what the UN does based 295 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: on I take, for instance, everyone in Ireland knows about 296 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 3: the UN when and then all about the Irish and Lebanon, 297 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 3: and in Syria and in Africa. I'm sure in the 298 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 3: Nha Kingdom, because you've got a very small UN footprint. Yeah, 299 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 3: Cyprus been one, and there's a few of you guys here. 300 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: Generally people in the UK, I'm sure you'll be able 301 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 3: to enlighten me on this wouldn't have the exact same 302 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 3: intimate knowledge or even interest in the UN, yeah, because 303 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 3: basically they don't have a big footprint, deployable footprint. 304 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And it's the same with the United States. 305 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,239 Speaker 2: I think it's not something that people think about for 306 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 2: the most part, and so like that's this question of 307 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 2: like why doesn't the un Certainly I think when people 308 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: saw what happened recently in Lebanon, they were like, why 309 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: are these peacekeepers? You know where you had these peacekeepers. 310 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 2: And we spoke about this in our last episode, right 311 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 2: being shelled being shot at. You know, the people were 312 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: asking why they went out there fighting, and there are 313 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 2: a lot of reasons for that, one being it that's 314 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 2: not what they're there to do. But yeah, when we 315 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 2: had this Force Intervention Brigade in Congo, they did some 316 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 2: good things, right, they were able to retake Goma, and 317 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 2: for the people who lived in Goma, I'm sure that 318 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: was very important, like that meaningfully improved their lives. But 319 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 2: like it also comes with these complications that you've addressed, right, 320 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: Like each of those those troop contributing countries, you need 321 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: everyone to be committed to like the same mission, I suppose, 322 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 2: and like if if your government is giving your armed 323 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 2: forces one mission that differs slightly from that which the 324 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: whoever's in commanded the force into gentry brigade hats, then 325 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: we get friction, right, or it's not as efficient as 326 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 2: it could. 327 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 3: Be Yeah, I think I'm sure I mentioned this when 328 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 3: we last spoke. It's one thing developing a robust mandate, 329 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 3: but if the if the TCCs don't have the skills, 330 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 3: the experience, the training, the equipment, or the will to 331 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 3: enforce the robust nature of that mandate, well then the 332 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 3: mandate isn't really worth anything, you know. So it's it's 333 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 3: kind of like, yes, the FIB was extremely effective for 334 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 3: a while until it wasn't. Now whether that was a 335 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 3: lack of will on the TCCs or on New York 336 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 3: or mission leadership, I have no idea, but it was 337 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 3: a great idea and it worked and then it didn't work. 338 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 2: Yeah. 339 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 3: Plus the fact that the DOC wanted the mission to 340 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 3: downsize and eventually leave, that added to the should we 341 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 3: really invest in something when we're going to pull out 342 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 3: because the country doesn't want to see her anymore? Which is 343 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 3: again it's a fair point. 344 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, No one wants foreign troops in their country, right, 345 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 2: you know, walking around, especially you know, engaging their own citizens. 346 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: But I mean it's interesting. I was watching a speaks 347 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 2: the current president of the DC, Felix Tishi Sakedy. I've 348 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: tried my best to pronounce it correctly. It's not that diffrespect. 349 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 2: He was saying that the international community is bordering on 350 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 2: complicit in M twenty three to advance because of the 351 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 2: failure to do anything about it in a speech he 352 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: gave this week, And it was interesting because it had 353 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 2: previously been, like you said, for under very understandable reasons, 354 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 2: especially in the DRC, which has this long and horrible 355 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 2: history of colonialism, like the terrible things done in the 356 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 2: Belgian Congo. We've covered. There's a lot on basketsweenw the 357 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: show that we do. People can listen to that if 358 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: they want to. But like now he's asking for more help, 359 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: which is also understandable because you know, his military is 360 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty five thousand or so like and 361 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: a large number of that it's not very combat effective 362 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: forces maybe and they've just been overrun in Goma in 363 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 2: a big city, a city of a million people. So like, 364 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 2: where do you think we go from here? What's like, 365 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 2: we're at a very unique time in world history in 366 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 2: which the United States is it's doing some things with 367 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: his foreign policy. Like I mean, I don't know, I 368 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 2: won't really meant words about anything. It's terrible, but if 369 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: we talk about like USAID, right I was speaking to 370 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 2: people on the Thai Burmese border last week who were 371 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 2: telling me that USAID has turned off life support machines 372 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: as part of it to throwdown, and that people obviously 373 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 2: directly died as a result of that. There So the 374 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: US is not necessarily averse to having terrible consequences to 375 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 2: its whatever it's trying to do right now, which I 376 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: don't really have a good word for. So look, where 377 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 2: do we go from here with the US becoming more isolationists. 378 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 3: Well, let's discuss for a few minutes the alternatives to 379 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 3: UN peacekeep yep, and there's a lot of them here 380 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 3: in Africa. So you have the South African Development Community static, 381 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 3: the East African community. There was an African Union stroke 382 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 3: un Hybrid mission and therefore unimit which is closing. There 383 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 3: was a NEO mission in Somalia. There is the Lake 384 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 3: Chad based and Multinational Task Force. There's the Group of 385 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 3: Five for the Sahel. Then you had EU four which 386 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 3: was an EU force in Chad and in Mali and 387 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 3: subsequently became miner Cat in Chad and Minusma and Mali. 388 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 3: Then you have the EUTM mission in Mali, which I 389 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 3: was part of at one stage and another one in scenario, 390 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 3: And of course we have our mercenaries, you know, and 391 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 3: when it emerged that there was over three hundred of 392 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 3: them allowed into Rwanda, I was reading the report that 393 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 3: they were getting something like three and a half thousand 394 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 3: dollars a month, whereas the DRC soldiers were getting maybe 395 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 3: three hundred dollars a month. Yeah, you know, and these 396 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 3: guys were brought in to protect the minds because again 397 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 3: it goes back to money. 398 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, platal resources, not people. That's a different thing. 399 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: So what if those like those African led peacekeeping missions 400 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 2: look like like you talked about these various like international 401 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: and regional groups. 402 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 3: I think it's it's certainly worth a try, because dun 403 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 3: hasn't the ability, need the money izume to keep doing 404 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 3: these large, big missions. At one stage, the three largest 405 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: missions were MENUSCO, which were discussing MINUSCA and the Central 406 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 3: African Republic, and MINUSMA, which was in Mali. Mali's gone, 407 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 3: DRC is on the drawdown. Central African Republic is still there, 408 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 3: but I've noticed I spent four years there and obviously 409 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: have a keen interest in the place. But there has 410 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 3: been a big increase in anti anti French with a 411 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,719 Speaker 3: Francophone country. Yeah, anti French and linked with a kind 412 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 3: of an anti UN sentiment. No, the special advisor to 413 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 3: the President is from Russia. Wagner, you had a big 414 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 3: part to play when I was there. There were key players. 415 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 416 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 3: Most likely they're inter linked. 417 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and they've done some things which are 418 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 2: horrific in terms. We've covered that as well with the 419 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: print Derma on the show. I did want to talk 420 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: about this because the US is talking about withdrawing its 421 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 2: sort of what we call soft power assets right around 422 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 2: the world, and I saw, like I forget who it 423 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 2: was saying, like, oh, let the chips fall where they may. 424 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 2: It's very obvious where the chips will fall in this 425 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 2: part of the world, right like when I was in Rwanda. 426 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: Every fancy road in Rwanda they call them Chinese roads 427 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 2: because they go from the mind to the airport beltion braces. 428 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 2: It's as naked a resource extraction project as you'll see 429 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 2: right now. China also does a soft power thing. They'll 430 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 2: build hospitals and these. You know, I forget where the 431 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 2: quote comes from, but like every time the US comes 432 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 2: we get a lecture and every time China comes, we 433 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 2: get a hospital. This will reorient the way these countries, 434 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: specifically in Africa, associate with the world right with the 435 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 2: US draw down and the United Nations not capable or 436 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 2: willing of sort of doing these massive peacekeeping missions. And 437 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 2: I think for very understandable reasons, groups like the EU. 438 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: You know, it's best not to have large deployment to 439 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 2: European and unmour what is in Africa for reasons that 440 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 2: are probably quite obvious. So like, yeah, we were likely 441 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: to see I mean, hasn't Wagner rebranded itself as the 442 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 2: Africa Core now? 443 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not sure who who's running it now, but 444 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 3: I'm sure the strings are being more closely pulled by 445 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 3: by Putin as opposed to having very loose control when 446 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 3: Pregosi was there. 447 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 448 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was given him like a standoff capability, was right, 449 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 3: This is just a PMC, nothing to do with me. Yeah, 450 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 3: but I would imagine after his drive to Moscow and 451 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 3: a subsequent demise, I'm sure that whoever is running the 452 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 3: Africa Core is much more tightly controlled by the criminal 453 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 3: I would I would imagine. 454 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a British India Company kind of model, 455 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 2: like a sort of proxy colonialism, but very tight. Like 456 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 2: you say, it's just almost just like a different badge 457 00:25:53,440 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 2: on the same thing there. I think this is one 458 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 2: of the things that won't get talked about in the 459 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 2: next four years because the US media will talk about 460 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 2: the US a lot. Again, I mean they always do. 461 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 2: But I think people should be concerned about this about 462 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 2: the future for like multi national peacekeeping in Africa, and 463 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 2: more importantly, I guess the future for or interlink without 464 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 2: the future for human rights in Africa. What do you 465 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 2: see as like meaningful ways that people can advocate for 466 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 2: a future for Africa which is not just another set 467 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: of countries extracting resources and leaving very little for the 468 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 2: people there, which is something that has happened. You know, 469 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 2: I'm a British person. This has happened by British people 470 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: for a very long time and other European people for 471 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 2: a very long time. But like that doesn't mean that 472 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 2: we shouldn't try to stop it happening in the future. 473 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 3: That's a difficult one to answer, because yeah, ideally African 474 00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 3: problems should, in my opinion, be solved by African nations, 475 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 3: and that's the reason that the African Union and all 476 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 3: these other ones that I mentioned I think are an 477 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 3: attempt to do that. Yeah, And certainly Europe and the 478 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 3: US shouldn't be dictating how Africans government themselves. They should 479 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 3: be assisting in good governance, good policing, good judiciary. But 480 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 3: it kind of goes back to money again, because there's 481 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 3: so much of a vested interest. I heard a figure 482 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 3: that twenty three were getting eight hundred thousand dollars a 483 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 3: month from some of the mines in the Kivus. I believe, so, well, 484 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 3: get that kind of money floating around, a lot of 485 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 3: people maybe don't want to sort things out, and it 486 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 3: may suit to leave the mayhem there and use all 487 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 3: these artisanal miners who are getting paid a couple of 488 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 3: cents a day. And Rwanda has just got a big 489 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 3: contract with the EU in terms of diamonds. 490 00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that is the thing, right, we can 491 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: hell where this stuff comes from, Like there is a 492 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: means to try and limit the amount of these resources 493 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 2: which you can leave conflict zones in a way which 494 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 2: benefits belligerent parties. It's where the markets for those resources 495 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 2: are willing to do it, right. 496 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, And everyone has mistaken the plat whether it's the 497 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 3: overseer of the mind, whether it's the company that owns 498 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 3: the mind, whether it's the people that move the product 499 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 3: from Kivu into someone's neighboring country, and then ultimately the 500 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 3: people that bias commercially in Western Europe or around the 501 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 3: rest of the world. 502 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's it's not you know, people think 503 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 2: of diamonds a lot, and I think people that there's 504 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,239 Speaker 2: been a kind of movement to purchase diamonds which you're 505 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 2: ethically sourced, or to just not use diamonds, to sort 506 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 2: of move away from them as like a store of value. 507 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 2: But it's also the parts in your mobile phone, isn't it. 508 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: It's not you know, it's not just like fancy engagement 509 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: rings because. 510 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 3: This is it. Yeah, you wouldn't a bit double the 511 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 3: price for more ethical mining methods most people probably earn. 512 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing, right, and especially when it's out 513 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 2: of sight, out of mind for most people, even compared 514 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: to you know, we obviously genocide Palestinian people or the 515 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: you know, when we think about these other atrostees, right, like, 516 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 2: those have not remained out of sight out of mind, 517 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 2: because they're visible in people social media because you know, 518 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 2: people in Palestine have phones and they can film, and 519 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: that's I think meaningfully changed the way. Like I wouldn't 520 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: have thought American people would care about Palestinian people. I 521 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 2: moved here in two thousand and eight, and you wouldn't 522 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: have found much interest in Palestine. 523 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 3: You wouldn't have expected them to promote ethnic cleansing of 524 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 3: guz Yeah. 525 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 2: I know you well, you wouldn't have expected that either. 526 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: But the movement like to support Palestinian people from the 527 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 2: grassroots and then also the government doing the exact opposite. 528 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: You know, It's come from the bottom up. It hasn't 529 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 2: come from like government advocacy. But we don't see that 530 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,239 Speaker 2: as much with certainly this part of Africa, right like, 531 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: and it's I expose it's contro it's goings of like 532 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: people in Congo maybe aren't able to access those global 533 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 2: networks of like social media and maybe to share their stories, 534 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 2: you know. And I think it's also a consequence of 535 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: us in the media not reporting at all, you know, 536 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: Like I've for years tried to sell stories about Africa 537 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 2: to American publications and at best they'll want a story 538 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: about like the people who are starting like social enterprise 539 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 2: European or North American people starting like social enterprises or 540 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 2: like sort of beneficial companies. And I understand it's have 541 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 2: a role, but like, you're not going to persuade me 542 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: that there isn't a single African person of interest to you, 543 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 2: and that like it's someone who came from North America 544 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 2: that is the only relevant story to tell in Africa. 545 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 2: And like I've had this falling out with so many 546 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,959 Speaker 2: editors over the years that like, no, I don't want 547 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 2: to tell that story. I want to tell a story 548 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 2: about people from Congo and Congo, about people from Rwanda 549 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 2: and Rwanda. 550 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 3: I live in the town towards the west coast of Iland, 551 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 3: and there's a guy from there. What I'll do is 552 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 3: I'll send you a link. Yeah, yeah, but he's passionate 553 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 3: about getting free education in Africa, between online courses and 554 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 3: online libraries. Obviously, the more education you get, the better 555 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 3: chance you have of having a better life. So yeah, 556 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 3: I think of some stuff and I'll send an Auntie 557 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 3: and then you can figure out whether it'll be an 558 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 3: interesting topic or whatever. But I just literally as we 559 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 3: were talking, I was thinking of how one guy is 560 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 3: trying to change conditions for younger people in Africa and 561 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 3: trying to give it to them for free. 562 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 2: That's it. Yeah, that's the key. It is like people 563 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 2: doing it. One of the things that people did which 564 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 2: I thought was really great as an example as a model, 565 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 2: is from October about October the tenth of twenty twenty three. 566 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 2: I suppose people weren't going to school or university in Gaza, 567 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 2: and very quickly there weren't any universities in Gaza because 568 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 2: they all got bombed. Right, the colleagues of mine in 569 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 2: academic departments started putting on seminars and lectures that Palestinian people, 570 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 2: be they displaced or still in Gaza, but with access 571 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: to internet, you know it's still displaced but internally displaced, 572 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 2: could attend and continue with their educations. And I thought 573 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 2: that was a really great, like solidarity based way to 574 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 2: facilitate access to something that people have had taken away 575 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 2: from them through no fault. There weren't by state aggression. 576 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 577 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, there's a model for that. I mean, colonialism 578 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: has done many terrible things, but it's given us a 579 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 2: common language with a lot of our African friends. You know, 580 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: you speak French and English, you can do quite well, 581 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: So like, yeah, there are things available, and I wish 582 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 2: people would I don't think people should stop caring about Palestine, 583 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 2: of course I don't, but I do wish they would 584 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 2: care more about people in Africa too, because like, they 585 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 2: don't deserve this any more than anyone else. 586 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 3: I was born in nineteen sixty when the first mission 587 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 3: went to to the Congo. Yeah, and it's been going on, 588 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 3: like I'm sixty four, it's been around sixty four years. Yeah, 589 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 3: so no more than the problem with the Palestiniots, I 590 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,479 Speaker 3: think some people, unless you have a specific interest in 591 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 3: it or feel passionate about it, a lot of people 592 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 3: just I think, chuwe out and to go to the 593 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 3: next pronouncement from the White House, you know, clickbit. 594 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 595 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 3: So I think it's a sad fact, but it's the 596 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 3: factor I. 597 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 2: Think, Yeah, yeah, it's a shame. And like you know, 598 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 2: if there's one thing I'd like to do with my career, 599 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 2: I'd like to spend more time in that part of 600 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: the world and do more reporting. And I think we 601 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 2: could do a lot with as a media with just 602 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: explaining how life is for everyday people, because people think 603 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 2: about Congo in terms of yeah, the m twenty three 604 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 2: in the Congolese government and who too, militias and this 605 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: and that, But the vast majority of people are just 606 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 2: trying to get on with their day. You know, they 607 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 2: want a better future for their children. Yeah, and you 608 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,879 Speaker 2: know the fact that your mobile phone it's cheap, it's 609 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: maybe making their children's future worse. And that's something that 610 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 2: we need to reckon with. And e cares Yeah, yeah, yeah, 611 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 2: I mean this is the thing. People don't talk about 612 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: electric cars. It's so as weird. It's all that stuff 613 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 2: come and then even here in America right whether the 614 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: US trying to mind lithium on reservations where you know 615 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 2: the land there's little land it's left indigenous people to 616 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 2: have sovereignty on it's where it's now trying to do 617 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,479 Speaker 2: this very invasive form of mining. Kevin, you've written a book, 618 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 2: So would you like to as we wind down here, 619 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: do you want to expend a little bit about about 620 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 2: your books so that if people are interested in your 621 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,919 Speaker 2: life and your time as a peacekeeper and an archaeologist. 622 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 3: Okay, so what starts on off as a lockdown Prodridge. 623 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 3: When COVID hit back in the day, I decided I 624 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 3: would write an account of my weird of wonderful life 625 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 3: for my just from my family, and we'll just start 626 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 3: writing as or no doubt where you start remembering. And 627 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,479 Speaker 3: suddenly I was at something like a hundred thousand words 628 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 3: and I thought, right, there might be a book in this. 629 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 3: And I know, obviously I'm opinionated about my own book naturally, 630 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 3: but it's not just a book about some random military 631 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 3: guy waffling on about his military career. I've a separate 632 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 3: career in mountaineering and kind of nearly a separate career 633 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 3: in archaeology, so it's it's a mixture of soldiering, mountaineering 634 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 3: and archaeology. As someone said it to me, it's a 635 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 3: bit like Chris Bonnington meets Bear Grills meets Indiana Jones, 636 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 3: which is a weird and wonderful way to do. So 637 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 3: the title of the book is a Lifeless Ordinary, which 638 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 3: this was a recruiting slogo in the nineteen nineties for 639 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 3: the Irish Defense Forces. I think I'll sent you the 640 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 3: link yep. 641 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 642 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 3: If not, I'll do it yeah immediately, so all your 643 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 3: viewers can can order the book. You can only get 644 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 3: it online at the publishers. It's not on Amazon at first. 645 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, well maybe maybe fore the best given the way 646 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 2: tech people are playing the US economy. Yeah, you can. 647 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 2: You can get it online. You can get it sent 648 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 2: to the United States if you interest dated. I did. 649 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time, Kevin. You're insights today. 650 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 2: I know we really appreciate it. Is there anywhere else 651 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 2: if people want to follow you online? Aside from the book? 652 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 3: The book is probably the best one. What is probably 653 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 3: the best way to get in comment? I'm on LinkedIn 654 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 3: and yeah, the normal stuff. Just google Kevin McDonald and 655 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 3: I should, I should come up. I was resisting for 656 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 3: years and years, and eventually I googled Kevin McDonald and 657 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 3: I was surprised at the amount of Kevin McDonald's There 658 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 3: is a famous American actor I think called Kevin McDonald. Yeah, yeah, 659 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 3: but I just as a small parting shot when when 660 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 3: I was in Mali, I was researching the archaeology of Mali, 661 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,720 Speaker 3: and the world expert on Malayane archaeology is a professor, naturally, 662 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 3: Kevin mac donald. So I sent him an am here 663 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,280 Speaker 3: and I said, by the way, I'm also an archaeologist 664 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 3: and my name is Kevin McDonald, and he goes my words. 665 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 3: I'd be in Bungi are in Bamaco in two weeks time. 666 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 3: Let's meet. So the two Kevin McDonald's two archaeologists met 667 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 3: up in Bamaco to discuss archaeology. 668 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 2: So that's nice when these things kept. 669 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 3: Again another one of my word and wonderful stories. 670 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, well, thanks so much for joining us to Kevin. 671 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 2: So it's nice to hiss me. 672 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 3: You're more than welcome, Jims. 673 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 674 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 675 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 676 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, 677 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: you can now find sources for It Could Happen Here 678 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: listened directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.