WEBVTT - Psych Out | EP 5 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.760 Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:05.560 your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.520 season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.879 the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.320 stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.320 want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.840 Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.279 Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of, 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.240 and a few you didn't like former A and TM 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:32.080 judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.159 of the long running TV series through the untold stories 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.519 of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:43.640 opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation, 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.560 shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.919 docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:01:00.240 Check your local TV provider schedule. On this episode, we're 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:04.400 continuing to look into ANTM psychological evaluations and how they 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.560 were really used. If you haven't listened to our first 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.240 episode on the psyche valve. Go back and listen to that, 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:13.080 and before I go on, I want to say that 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:17.480 this episode is particularly dark. We're talking about trauma, including 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:21.600 sexual assault and physical abuse. We're also talking about suicide 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:28.920 and suicidal ideation. Now onto the episode. While I was 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.800 doing interviews for this show, I asked every model I 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.600 spoke to what they were told the antm psyche vowel 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:36.920 was for. Here's what Psycho twenty four is. 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.200 Gina Turner said, they were explaining on a stage what 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.000 the use of the psyche yowls were for, and it 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.640 was just like, just so we can understand you and 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:47.560 get to know you better and just make this a 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.640 great experience. They didn't really say it was to manipulate you, 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.200 or to think ahead of you, or to think before. 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:56.760 You could, or to put together a certain narrative. 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:00.560 But once she got cast on the show, that's exactly 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:04.600 how her psyche vow was used. Gina had a traumatic childhood. 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.919 She said her mother struggled with drug addiction and because 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.400 of that, Gina was in and out of poster care. 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:15.000 As an adult, she experienced sexual assault in suicidal ideation. 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:19.560 She told the show psychologists all of this Gina expected 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.160 that what she told them would stay in those rooms, 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.079 that it was all necessary information to ensure everyone's safety. 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.560 Gina was cast on the show, but once the camera 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:33.640 started rolling, she discovered that those deeply traumatic experiences she 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.240 shared in her psyche Vle had been given to A 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:41.920 and TM producers. Gina had a whirlwind of a season. 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:46.680 She was eliminated, brought back, eliminated again, then saved, and 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.440 went on to become one of two finalists, only to 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.880 lose the competition in the finale. After one of those eliminations, 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.200 the producers pulled her for an exit interview. 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:03.200 They interviewed me for seven hours. They caught me in 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:09.280 a room with an interviewer, a sound guy, and a cameraman. 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:13.760 The majority of that interview was them poking and prodding 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.240 at me and asking me questions about, you know, how 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.839 traumatizing my childhood was, and like things I've gone through 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:20.640 with my mom, and like being in and out of 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:22.960 foster care, and how was it, you know, having a 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.800 mom who you know struggled with drug addiction and what did. 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:29.160 That do to you? For legal reasons, I have to 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.560 say this, we can't confirm what Gina is saying about 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.960 her mom here, but according to Gina, she shared this 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.200 with the A and TM psychologists and the show producers 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:43.520 brought it up in this confessional. Gina says she started 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.480 to shut down, but the producers didn't stop until they 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:48.120 got the reaction they wanted. 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:53.360 Then the conversation very quickly turned into them talking about 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.240 personal traumas and like my mental health and me talking 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.600 about being suicidal. And I just remember, for hours and 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.840 hours on Andy just kept focusing on me being suicidal, 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.160 and it's like, I just want to talk about something happy. 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:07.880 I don't want to talk about growing up in foster care. 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:09.400 I don't want to talk about what it's like to 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:12.920 see my mom smoke crack through a doorway. I don't 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:14.840 want to I don't want to talk about any of 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.120 that shit. And like it was specifically about the suicidal thing. 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.240 I was exhausted. I was physically self exhausted, and I 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:22.800 remember putting my handsmut and I was like, I don't 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:24.880 want to talk about it anymore, and I'm crying. 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:27.320 I wanted to win American on some model. 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:28.919 I thought I could do it. 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:34.320 I don't want to talk about it anymore. 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.440 But that is literally the clip that they use for 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:45.360 how I emotionally responded for losing the competition, and that 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:49.040 will forever stick with me, like my exit from that 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.640 show visually, at least the way it was presented was 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:53.640 actually me talking about being suicidal. 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.760 Gina would be the last Top Model contestant to experience 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:02.159 this kind of pressure in an pipulation because that clip 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.960 we just heard was from the final episode of A 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:09.440 and TM ever made after fifteen years, the show went 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:11.880 off the air in twenty eighteen, and they closed it 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:13.480 out the same way they started. 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.640 They still couldn't put me in a positive light. They 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.880 still couldn't empower me. They still tried to like keep 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:23.719 me boxed into this like poor pitiful underdog girl, And 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.320 for that, I can say, fuck them. 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:34.599 Yeah, I want to beyond some. You want to beyond some. 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.520 Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:52.440 Bridget Armstrong. On this episode, we're continuing our deep dive 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:59.440 into ANTM psychological evaluations. Last episode, you heard the models 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.640 say they were told their conversations with the show psychologists 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.159 were to make sure they were a safe choice for 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:09.359 the show. They told the psychologists their deepest, darkest secrets 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.760 because that's what they were asked to do. Like Gina, 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.720 most contestants thought they were speaking to the psychologists in confidence, 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.080 but they were wrong. I've talked to contestants who say 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:24.560 their traumatic experiences were later used by producers to manipulate 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:28.440 them for the cameras. The fact that producers were even 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:32.640 allowed to do that was buried deep in the contestants' contracts. 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.640 And then there's the lingering question about the real purpose 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:40.200 of the psyche Vow. There are several contestants whose trauma 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:44.000 history and history with suicidal ideation should have gotten them 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:47.800 red flagged by the show psychologists. After A and TM, 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.760 some of those contestants turned to drugs and alcohol, and 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:57.080 one even took her own life. In the contract the 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:01.280 contestants signed, they waived their rights to confident GI, meaning 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:03.919 if the psychologists unearthed something in the psyche Vow that 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.719 made a potential cast member of danger, they had the 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.440 permission to share with producers, which makes sense, but they 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.760 also had permission to share anything else they found out 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:18.480 in the evaluations. The contract says quote information obtained by 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:22.400 producers may be used for purposes of selecting participants and 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:25.640 in connection with the program in general, including but not 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:30.800 limited to the production of the program. That language is 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.560 pretty vague, but that one line gave producers the clearance 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:36.880 to use what was shared in the psyche vow to 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.920 produce A and TM. If I saw it the way 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:41.720 it was written in the contract, I don't think I 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.080 would connect the dots, and most of the models I 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.400 talked to told me they didn't understand this part of 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:52.000 the process. ANTM made a point of telling contestants the 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.880 psyche vow was for their safety, but they didn't mention 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:59.880 its other use, maybe because they knew the contestants wouldn't 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:03.239 be so forthcoming with their personal trauma if they knew 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:08.120 how it would be used. Producers bringing up contestants deepest 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.160 trauma on set seemed to be a pattern for A 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.560 and TM. Sarah hart Torn saw it on cycle nine. 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:16.360 Somebody had a. 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.680 Sick relative, a very sick relative that they were close to, 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.000 and they would ask them about it all the time. 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.440 They would push her and push her and push her, like, 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.360 are you afraid they're going to die while you're here? 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:31.400 Are you afraid that if you don't win, you will 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:32.559 have missed out on time? 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:33.000 With them? 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:38.839 In vain and even more disturbing, UV Gomez from Cycle 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.040 four told me something she opened up about during her 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:44.760 A and TM psyche val was later shared with the 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.680 producers of Tyra's talk show without UV's provision. 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.880 They asked us all these questions about like our early 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:57.400 childhood or life or traumas, and the Tyra's show called 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.640 me because I had a pretty traumatic childhood, to say 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.040 the least, and they used some of the information that 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:08.679 I had told them for America's Next Time Model about 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:12.199 my family, and they were like, we're doing the show 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.760 where you confront family, and we know your mom was 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.640 a very absent mother and there were some abuse and neglect. 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.439 We want you to come on the show and confront 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:27.640 her about it. I said, absolut freako lutely not. We'll 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:28.640 talk to each other. 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:29.160 Face to face. 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.880 I ain't taken her own TV to call my mom out. 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.200 But the fact that they did that, I felt violated. 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:41.240 That they used that, it felt very grimy. We were 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.640 there talking to a psychologist about all our woes and 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.679 struggles and then you're gonna bring it back up. 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:53.000 It just felt very yucky. Again, for legal reasons, I 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.840 have to say this. We can't confirm what UV is 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.319 saying about her mom here, but this is what she says. 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:03.040 She told the A and TM psychologists, and somehow that 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.880 information later got to the producers of Tyra's talk show. 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.160 It was an entirely different program but owned by the 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:17.160 same production company. During my reporting on A ANDTM, this 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.880 idea of producers manipulating the contestants with personal trauma from 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.320 their past came up a lot. But it wasn't just 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:28.480 in those confessional interviews or behind the scenes. Some models 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:32.360 say their trauma was used to create storylines, conflict, and 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.920 shocking moments on the show, and I talked to a 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:39.200 producer who confirmed that. Former A ANDTM creative producer Andrew 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.240 Patterson told me that if a contestant shared a fear 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:44.720 of something in the psyche Val, he was told about 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.360 it so he could craft photoshoots and runways that would 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.160 put the contestant face to face with their fears. The 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.200 contestant would either come out triumphant having face their trauma, 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:58.240 or have a complete meltdown. Either way, it made good TV. 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.520 We throw these elements of fear because it's a competition 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.360 reality show. Listen, you know, let's see how they reacted. 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.520 I always thought these photo shoots and runways were designed 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.200 to get a reaction out of all the contestants, but 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:14.400 Andrew told me sometimes he would look at their casting 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:18.360 files for personal phobias and design challenges to fuck with 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:23.280 specific contestants. Those photo shoots and runways usually involve spiders 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.880 or heights, you know, a little fear factor element. Most 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:29.360 people are afraid of bugs and hanging off the side 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.680 of tall buildings. But Lisa the Model says it got 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:36.480 a lot more personal. You've heard from Lisa before. She's 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:38.800 the one who peed in a diaper on cycle five 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.160 and was later awarded that controversial win in cycle seventeen. 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.760 During her initial A and TM Psychebile, Lisa says she 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:51.959 was asked about her most disgusting experience. Strange question, but 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.720 Lisa had just been through something that she couldn't forget. 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.600 I had taken care of my grandpa and my grandma. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.120 Me and my grandma were really close, and my grandpa 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:07.000 had just passed away, and at the funeral, my grandma 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.760 had the worst accident ever. It was basically just like 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.440 she couldn't control going to the bathroom. So when she 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.440 went to the bathroom at the funeral, the service is 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:23.040 going on. She has the hugest accident number two right. 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.280 I realized she didn't come back. She was with the walker, 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:28.960 and so I went to the bathroom to go check 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.160 on her, and I realized that she shit all over herself. 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:35.800 It's all over her dress. She was trying to clean herself. 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.280 She doesn't have that much balance. I'm realizing that it's 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:41.520 on the walls because she has it on her hands. 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:46.400 There's poop everywhere, and this is her husband's funeral. So 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:50.439 I'm just like holding in trying to be strong for her, 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:56.240 but I'm also devastated. This smile is disgusting. I cleaned 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:58.160 everything up as fast as I could with just paper, 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.840 towels and water. We didn't come out for like twenty minutes. 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:04.240 So we finally came out. 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:04.840 We were what. 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:07.959 I cleaned this as best we could, but we smelled 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.760 like poop, and I just thought, this is the worst 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.640 way for my grandma to have this experience. 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.719 Lisa says she shared all of this with the show psychologist. 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:23.959 I'm curious of what the other girls said. I guess 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:25.680 my story beat theirs. 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:26.160 I guess. 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.400 On cycle five, they had us do a challenge guess 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:36.160 what the challenge was. The challenge was to go through 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:42.920 a obstacle course in Kalmanor where you're completely covered in Kalmanor. 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.760 You have to like dig yourself in the ground to 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:48.560 get under something, not touch things. 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:50.640 Lisa's gonna go first. 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.480 Where's my army Grease? Here you go, it's getting heaven. 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.520 She is tough here what leave. 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:06.400 Me like this? Go right on, army all the way down. 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.360 Fun when you get dirty, girl, I love being dirty, 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:11.800 so this actually is nothing to me. 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.320 I just have to add there is some question about 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.880 whether it was mud manure or mud mixed with manure, 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.080 but either way, it was nasty. That was the whole 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:26.880 point of the challenge. 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.200 And then they lock you in the limo. They filled 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.840 everything with covered it in plastic and made you just 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.360 sit in there with each other with the windows up 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:40.360 for about four hours where everyone just smells like poop. 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:41.840 And there's a. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.760 Moment actually that aired on television where I'm like just 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.840 sitting in the car and all the girls are bitching 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:51.000 and I'm just a complete silence because I realized what 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.280 this is. I realized that they got this from my 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:55.520 story of my grandma. 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:03.760 I felt completely manipulated After doing the obstacle course and 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.120 sitting in the limo, the contestants had to go to 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.920 a casting with l Girl magazine and try to be 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.440 pretty and charming while covered with manure or mud or 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:17.360 some combination. It's worth noting Lisa won the challenge. Lisa 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.440 told me this experience isn't even the most disturbing thing 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.400 she shared with the A and TM psychologist. She says 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.600 she was very candid about her difficult childhood and the 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.960 sexual abuse she survived after the break. You hear what 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.960 Lisa shared during her psyche vile and why I think 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.960 it should have been a red flag for producers. Plus 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.600 we'll talk about the other contestants who may have exhibited 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:52.560 signs of trauma who later met tragic ends. As I've 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.280 been reporting on A and TM, I noticed the pattern. 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.280 I've talked to over a dozen models for this show 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.240 and watched hundreds of their inner and I've been alarmed 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:07.440 at how many A ANDTM contestants are abuse survivors. I 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:11.400 know abuse is common, especially for women, but on every 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:16.040 cycle there are multiple contestants with harrowing backgrounds. And something 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.760 about this pattern sticks with me because I don't think 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:24.840 it's coincidental. Lisa Demato told me she shared everything with 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.800 the ANTM psychologists, including her darkest childhood trauma. 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:34.320 Cycle five, they had me see three different therapists, but 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.120 I passed from all of them, which is also an 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.080 important thing to let you know. According to them, if 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.840 you get cast on the show, it means that you 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:43.600 are safe. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.120 Just the heads up, Lisa is going to talk about 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:51.920 childhood sexual abuse. Here's what she told ANTM psychologists, and 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.080 take a debress. Okay. 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.760 When I went into my psycle valuations with the therapists 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.520 on cycle five, they asked me about my relationship with 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:06.159 my mother, my parents, my upbringing, as they did with everybody. 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:12.480 For me, I had been molested by my mom's boyfriend 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.440 from the time I was eight till twelve. My sister 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.359 and I just lived in fear. It was a devastating existence. 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:23.480 Lisa says she tried to tell her mom and she 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.479 didn't believe her. Instead, she blamed Lisa. 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:29.680 Whenever I would stick up for myself to my mom 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.160 and be like, we don't deserve this, she would tell 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:36.440 us like, who do you think you are? Like you're nothing, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.520 Go fucking kill yourself. That's the way my mom would 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:47.000 talk to me. So, yeah, top model, the therapist all 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:48.640 knew about. 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:55.560 This, you know the deal. Legally, I have to say 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.520 I can't confirm the things Lisa told me about her mother. 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.399 But Lisa said when she shared this with the A 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.879 ANDTM psychologists, she was still in her early twenties. She 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.199 hadn't fully worked through a lot of her trauma. She 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.480 said she'd thought about taking her own life before being 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:16.439 on A ANDTM Cycle five. Doctor Stephen Stein is the 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.879 psychologist who worked on reality shows like Survivor and Big Brother. 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.760 You met him last episode. I asked doctor Stein what 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:27.879 other concerns, aside from aggression and safety issues, would make 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:30.160 him rule out someone as a potential cast member. 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.680 Someone who may show signs of suicide. May I have 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.280 had experiences or attempted of suicide. 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.200 Lisa wasn't the only one who told me she talked 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:44.280 about suicide with the A ANDTM evaluators. Remember, at the 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.960 beginning of this episode, Gina says producers pushed her to 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.440 talk about her own experience with suicidal thoughts. That was 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:55.600 something that psychologists must have noted before Gina was cast. 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.000 Doctor Stein said the other red flag he looks for 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:03.560 are addiction is. Lisa's edit on Cycle five pretty much 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:07.240 revolved around her perceived drinking problem, and she told me 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.040 the stress of being on A and TM contributed to 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:10.639 her drinking. 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.640 I had been drinking because the way they were torturing 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.280 me in my interviews. They kept abusing me with my 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:22.240 childhood drama. They kept manipulating my feelings. 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:26.480 And it was just devastating. I was trying to self sue. 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:29.840 That's what the drinking was. It was me self soothing. 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:36.200 After A and TM Cycle five, Lisa did another reality show, 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:40.520 celeb Rehab. That show's premise is in the name famous 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:42.480 people live in a house together while getting help for 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.800 drug and alcohol issues from a doctor who specializes an addiction. 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.560 We don't know if the A ANDTM psychologists knew anything 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:53.359 about Lisa's potential drinking problem when she auditioned for Cycle five, 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:56.479 but they definitely knew about it when they brought her 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.919 back for All Stars. Lisa's told me the models on 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.080 All Stars understood the show more their second time around, 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:05.760 so they weren't as eager to play into the drama. 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.680 Lisa said. When producers couldn't get the juice they needed 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.200 in the confessionals, they turned to alcohol. 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.640 They had guys there with champagne, so they're like, Okay, 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.479 well if we can't get them from the interviews, we'll 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.320 get them right away and see who can get drunk 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.439 and get this thing going. I said no to the 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.640 champagne probably about five times. 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.840 I'm not a mental health professional, but if I'm just 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.760 judging based on what doctor Stein told me and the 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:39.520 information I've gathered about the A ANDTM evil, I don't 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.600 know if Lisa should have been cast on A and TM. 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:47.120 Even if A ANDTM producers didn't know about her alcohol 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:50.879 abuse and history of suicidal thoughts before cycle five, they 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:55.720 should have known after Lisa told consulting producer Oliver Twist 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.760 about how after she was eliminated from cycle five, she 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.520 stayed on set in a whole hotel nearby waiting for 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:03.719 the season to rap, as is the case with all 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.720 the contestants. While they were stuck in limbo, Lisa says 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:12.359 she and another contestant faked a suicide attempt as a prank. 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:15.880 She says that got her labeled a liability on set 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:19.360 and sent home immediately. But a few years later, when 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:21.719 A and TM was casting for their all star season, 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:24.640 They called her and asked her to join the cast, 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:30.280 which she did. There are other models who may have 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:34.000 had serious trauma in their past, models who made it 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:38.560 on the show and later went down dangerous paths. Kimberly 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.280 Razuski was a contestant on cycle ten. She had blonde 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.560 hair around face in a poudy expression. She had a 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.040 very cute, almost baby face that masked the pain she 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:50.480 was carrying inside. 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:53.639 I'm Kim, I'm twenty years old from western Massachusetts. 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:54.640 So what do you do for a living? 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:55.760 I wreck at a bank. 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:56.560 I'm gonna tell her. 0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:00.080 Do you ever to take money? 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:01.400 A lot of money? 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:05.840 You do? What do you take money? Oh? 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:06.639 We steal it? 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:06.960 Yeah? 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:11.879 Oh god no, the federal offense. Kim's time on the 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:14.760 show was brief. She decided to leave after the first 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:15.919 elimination of the season. 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:17.520 Do you want to be here? 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:20.760 To be completely honest, like the whole fashion thing, it 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:21.840 doesn't interest. 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:22.120 Me at all. 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:23.760 Here? 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:25.320 Why did you come here? 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.640 I've learned how to like express the pictures, but like 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:31.679 the whole designer thing, like you know, I don't believe 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:33.560 in the whole like you know, I need to wear 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:34.920 designer outfits and like. 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:36.960 You don't need to wear designer outfits as a model. 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:38.600 Well I know that, but I'm just saying, like, I 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:39.600 don't find it interested. 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:43.560 Do you want to just go home? 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:46.960 Yeah, all right, go home. 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:53.600 Later after the cycle ended, Kim revealed the real reason 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:57.840 why she self eliminated. Right before filming. Her ex boyfriend 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:01.760 died by suicide and Kim was having a hard time coping. 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:05.560 We don't know if Kim shared this information with A 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:08.960 and TM, but it seems like she might have because 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:11.680 after the season, she was asked to share the real 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:16.840 story on Tyra's talk show. Here's Kim's segment on The 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:17.440 Tyra Show. 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:22.840 Three months before the show, my ex boyfriend committed suicide. 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:28.200