1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,760 Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In 4 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of, 9 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like former A and TM 10 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly 11 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden 13 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation, 14 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part 15 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network. 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: Check your local TV provider schedule. On this episode, we're 17 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: continuing to look into ANTM psychological evaluations and how they 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: were really used. If you haven't listened to our first 19 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: episode on the psyche valve. Go back and listen to that, 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: and before I go on, I want to say that 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: this episode is particularly dark. We're talking about trauma, including 22 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: sexual assault and physical abuse. We're also talking about suicide 23 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: and suicidal ideation. Now onto the episode. While I was 24 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: doing interviews for this show, I asked every model I 25 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: spoke to what they were told the antm psyche vowel 26 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: was for. Here's what Psycho twenty four is. 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: Gina Turner said, they were explaining on a stage what 28 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: the use of the psyche yowls were for, and it 29 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: was just like, just so we can understand you and 30 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 2: get to know you better and just make this a 31 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: great experience. They didn't really say it was to manipulate you, 32 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: or to think ahead of you, or to think before. 33 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 3: You could, or to put together a certain narrative. 34 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: But once she got cast on the show, that's exactly 35 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: how her psyche vow was used. Gina had a traumatic childhood. 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,919 Speaker 1: She said her mother struggled with drug addiction and because 37 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: of that, Gina was in and out of poster care. 38 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: As an adult, she experienced sexual assault in suicidal ideation. 39 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: She told the show psychologists all of this Gina expected 40 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: that what she told them would stay in those rooms, 41 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: that it was all necessary information to ensure everyone's safety. 42 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: Gina was cast on the show, but once the camera 43 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: started rolling, she discovered that those deeply traumatic experiences she 44 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: shared in her psyche Vle had been given to A 45 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: and TM producers. Gina had a whirlwind of a season. 46 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: She was eliminated, brought back, eliminated again, then saved, and 47 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: went on to become one of two finalists, only to 48 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: lose the competition in the finale. After one of those eliminations, 49 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: the producers pulled her for an exit interview. 50 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: They interviewed me for seven hours. They caught me in 51 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: a room with an interviewer, a sound guy, and a cameraman. 52 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: The majority of that interview was them poking and prodding 53 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: at me and asking me questions about, you know, how 54 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,839 Speaker 2: traumatizing my childhood was, and like things I've gone through 55 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: with my mom, and like being in and out of 56 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 2: foster care, and how was it, you know, having a 57 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 2: mom who you know struggled with drug addiction and what did. 58 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: That do to you? For legal reasons, I have to 59 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: say this, we can't confirm what Gina is saying about 60 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: her mom here, but according to Gina, she shared this 61 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: with the A and TM psychologists and the show producers 62 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: brought it up in this confessional. Gina says she started 63 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: to shut down, but the producers didn't stop until they 64 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: got the reaction they wanted. 65 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: Then the conversation very quickly turned into them talking about 66 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: personal traumas and like my mental health and me talking 67 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: about being suicidal. And I just remember, for hours and 68 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 2: hours on Andy just kept focusing on me being suicidal, 69 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: and it's like, I just want to talk about something happy. 70 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 3: I don't want to talk about growing up in foster care. 71 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about what it's like to 72 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 2: see my mom smoke crack through a doorway. I don't 73 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: want to I don't want to talk about any of 74 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: that shit. And like it was specifically about the suicidal thing. 75 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: I was exhausted. I was physically self exhausted, and I 76 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: remember putting my handsmut and I was like, I don't 77 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: want to talk about it anymore, and I'm crying. 78 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to win American on some model. 79 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 4: I thought I could do it. 80 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about it anymore. 81 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 4: But that is literally the clip that they use for 82 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 4: how I emotionally responded for losing the competition, and that 83 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 4: will forever stick with me, like my exit from that 84 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 4: show visually, at least the way it was presented was 85 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 4: actually me talking about being suicidal. 86 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: Gina would be the last Top Model contestant to experience 87 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: this kind of pressure in an pipulation because that clip 88 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: we just heard was from the final episode of A 89 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: and TM ever made after fifteen years, the show went 90 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: off the air in twenty eighteen, and they closed it 91 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: out the same way they started. 92 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 3: They still couldn't put me in a positive light. They 93 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: still couldn't empower me. They still tried to like keep 94 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 3: me boxed into this like poor pitiful underdog girl, And 95 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 3: for that, I can say, fuck them. 96 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to beyond some. You want to beyond some. 97 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm 98 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: Bridget Armstrong. On this episode, we're continuing our deep dive 99 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: into ANTM psychological evaluations. Last episode, you heard the models 100 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: say they were told their conversations with the show psychologists 101 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: were to make sure they were a safe choice for 102 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: the show. They told the psychologists their deepest, darkest secrets 103 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: because that's what they were asked to do. Like Gina, 104 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: most contestants thought they were speaking to the psychologists in confidence, 105 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: but they were wrong. I've talked to contestants who say 106 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: their traumatic experiences were later used by producers to manipulate 107 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: them for the cameras. The fact that producers were even 108 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: allowed to do that was buried deep in the contestants' contracts. 109 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: And then there's the lingering question about the real purpose 110 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: of the psyche Vow. There are several contestants whose trauma 111 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: history and history with suicidal ideation should have gotten them 112 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: red flagged by the show psychologists. After A and TM, 113 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: some of those contestants turned to drugs and alcohol, and 114 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: one even took her own life. In the contract the 115 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: contestants signed, they waived their rights to confident GI, meaning 116 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: if the psychologists unearthed something in the psyche Vow that 117 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: made a potential cast member of danger, they had the 118 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: permission to share with producers, which makes sense, but they 119 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: also had permission to share anything else they found out 120 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: in the evaluations. The contract says quote information obtained by 121 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: producers may be used for purposes of selecting participants and 122 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: in connection with the program in general, including but not 123 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: limited to the production of the program. That language is 124 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: pretty vague, but that one line gave producers the clearance 125 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: to use what was shared in the psyche vow to 126 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: produce A and TM. If I saw it the way 127 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: it was written in the contract, I don't think I 128 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: would connect the dots, and most of the models I 129 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: talked to told me they didn't understand this part of 130 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: the process. ANTM made a point of telling contestants the 131 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: psyche vow was for their safety, but they didn't mention 132 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: its other use, maybe because they knew the contestants wouldn't 133 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,239 Speaker 1: be so forthcoming with their personal trauma if they knew 134 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: how it would be used. Producers bringing up contestants deepest 135 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: trauma on set seemed to be a pattern for A 136 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: and TM. Sarah hart Torn saw it on cycle nine. 137 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: Somebody had a. 138 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 5: Sick relative, a very sick relative that they were close to, 139 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 5: and they would ask them about it all the time. 140 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: They would push her and push her and push her, like, 141 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: are you afraid they're going to die while you're here? 142 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: Are you afraid that if you don't win, you will 143 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: have missed out on time? 144 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 2: With them? 145 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 1: In vain and even more disturbing, UV Gomez from Cycle 146 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: four told me something she opened up about during her 147 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: A and TM psyche val was later shared with the 148 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: producers of Tyra's talk show without UV's provision. 149 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 5: They asked us all these questions about like our early 150 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 5: childhood or life or traumas, and the Tyra's show called 151 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 5: me because I had a pretty traumatic childhood, to say 152 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 5: the least, and they used some of the information that 153 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 5: I had told them for America's Next Time Model about 154 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 5: my family, and they were like, we're doing the show 155 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 5: where you confront family, and we know your mom was 156 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 5: a very absent mother and there were some abuse and neglect. 157 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 5: We want you to come on the show and confront 158 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 5: her about it. I said, absolut freako lutely not. We'll 159 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 5: talk to each other. 160 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: Face to face. 161 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 5: I ain't taken her own TV to call my mom out. 162 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 5: But the fact that they did that, I felt violated. 163 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 5: That they used that, it felt very grimy. We were 164 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 5: there talking to a psychologist about all our woes and 165 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 5: struggles and then you're gonna bring it back up. 166 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: It just felt very yucky. Again, for legal reasons, I 167 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: have to say this. We can't confirm what UV is 168 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: saying about her mom here, but this is what she says. 169 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: She told the A and TM psychologists, and somehow that 170 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: information later got to the producers of Tyra's talk show. 171 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: It was an entirely different program but owned by the 172 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: same production company. During my reporting on A ANDTM, this 173 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: idea of producers manipulating the contestants with personal trauma from 174 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: their past came up a lot. But it wasn't just 175 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: in those confessional interviews or behind the scenes. Some models 176 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: say their trauma was used to create storylines, conflict, and 177 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: shocking moments on the show, and I talked to a 178 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: producer who confirmed that. Former A ANDTM creative producer Andrew 179 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: Patterson told me that if a contestant shared a fear 180 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: of something in the psyche Val, he was told about 181 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: it so he could craft photoshoots and runways that would 182 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: put the contestant face to face with their fears. The 183 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: contestant would either come out triumphant having face their trauma, 184 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: or have a complete meltdown. Either way, it made good TV. 185 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: We throw these elements of fear because it's a competition 186 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: reality show. Listen, you know, let's see how they reacted. 187 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: I always thought these photo shoots and runways were designed 188 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: to get a reaction out of all the contestants, but 189 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: Andrew told me sometimes he would look at their casting 190 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: files for personal phobias and design challenges to fuck with 191 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: specific contestants. Those photo shoots and runways usually involve spiders 192 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: or heights, you know, a little fear factor element. Most 193 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: people are afraid of bugs and hanging off the side 194 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: of tall buildings. But Lisa the Model says it got 195 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: a lot more personal. You've heard from Lisa before. She's 196 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: the one who peed in a diaper on cycle five 197 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: and was later awarded that controversial win in cycle seventeen. 198 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: During her initial A and TM Psychebile, Lisa says she 199 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: was asked about her most disgusting experience. Strange question, but 200 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: Lisa had just been through something that she couldn't forget. 201 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 6: I had taken care of my grandpa and my grandma. 202 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 6: Me and my grandma were really close, and my grandpa 203 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 6: had just passed away, and at the funeral, my grandma 204 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 6: had the worst accident ever. It was basically just like 205 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 6: she couldn't control going to the bathroom. So when she 206 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 6: went to the bathroom at the funeral, the service is 207 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 6: going on. She has the hugest accident number two right. 208 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 6: I realized she didn't come back. She was with the walker, 209 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 6: and so I went to the bathroom to go check 210 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 6: on her, and I realized that she shit all over herself. 211 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 6: It's all over her dress. She was trying to clean herself. 212 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 6: She doesn't have that much balance. I'm realizing that it's 213 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 6: on the walls because she has it on her hands. 214 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 6: There's poop everywhere, and this is her husband's funeral. So 215 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 6: I'm just like holding in trying to be strong for her, 216 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 6: but I'm also devastated. This smile is disgusting. I cleaned 217 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 6: everything up as fast as I could with just paper, 218 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 6: towels and water. We didn't come out for like twenty minutes. 219 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 6: So we finally came out. 220 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: We were what. 221 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 6: I cleaned this as best we could, but we smelled 222 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 6: like poop, and I just thought, this is the worst 223 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 6: way for my grandma to have this experience. 224 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 1: Lisa says she shared all of this with the show psychologist. 225 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 6: I'm curious of what the other girls said. I guess 226 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 6: my story beat theirs. 227 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: I guess. 228 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 6: On cycle five, they had us do a challenge guess 229 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 6: what the challenge was. The challenge was to go through 230 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 6: a obstacle course in Kalmanor where you're completely covered in Kalmanor. 231 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 6: You have to like dig yourself in the ground to 232 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 6: get under something, not touch things. 233 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: Lisa's gonna go first. 234 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 6: Where's my army Grease? Here you go, it's getting heaven. 235 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 7: She is tough here what leave. 236 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 8: Me like this? Go right on, army all the way down. 237 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 9: Fun when you get dirty, girl, I love being dirty, 238 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 9: so this actually is nothing to me. 239 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: I just have to add there is some question about 240 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: whether it was mud manure or mud mixed with manure, 241 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: but either way, it was nasty. That was the whole 242 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: point of the challenge. 243 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 6: And then they lock you in the limo. They filled 244 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 6: everything with covered it in plastic and made you just 245 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 6: sit in there with each other with the windows up 246 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 6: for about four hours where everyone just smells like poop. 247 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: And there's a. 248 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 6: Moment actually that aired on television where I'm like just 249 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 6: sitting in the car and all the girls are bitching 250 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 6: and I'm just a complete silence because I realized what 251 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 6: this is. I realized that they got this from my 252 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 6: story of my grandma. 253 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: I felt completely manipulated After doing the obstacle course and 254 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: sitting in the limo, the contestants had to go to 255 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: a casting with l Girl magazine and try to be 256 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: pretty and charming while covered with manure or mud or 257 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: some combination. It's worth noting Lisa won the challenge. Lisa 258 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: told me this experience isn't even the most disturbing thing 259 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: she shared with the A and TM psychologist. She says 260 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: she was very candid about her difficult childhood and the 261 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: sexual abuse she survived after the break. You hear what 262 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: Lisa shared during her psyche vile and why I think 263 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: it should have been a red flag for producers. Plus 264 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: we'll talk about the other contestants who may have exhibited 265 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: signs of trauma who later met tragic ends. As I've 266 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: been reporting on A and TM, I noticed the pattern. 267 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: I've talked to over a dozen models for this show 268 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: and watched hundreds of their inner and I've been alarmed 269 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: at how many A ANDTM contestants are abuse survivors. I 270 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: know abuse is common, especially for women, but on every 271 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: cycle there are multiple contestants with harrowing backgrounds. And something 272 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: about this pattern sticks with me because I don't think 273 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: it's coincidental. Lisa Demato told me she shared everything with 274 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: the ANTM psychologists, including her darkest childhood trauma. 275 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 6: Cycle five, they had me see three different therapists, but 276 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 6: I passed from all of them, which is also an 277 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 6: important thing to let you know. According to them, if 278 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 6: you get cast on the show, it means that you 279 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 6: are safe. 280 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: Just the heads up, Lisa is going to talk about 281 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: childhood sexual abuse. Here's what she told ANTM psychologists, and 282 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: take a debress. Okay. 283 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 6: When I went into my psycle valuations with the therapists 284 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 6: on cycle five, they asked me about my relationship with 285 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 6: my mother, my parents, my upbringing, as they did with everybody. 286 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 6: For me, I had been molested by my mom's boyfriend 287 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 6: from the time I was eight till twelve. My sister 288 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 6: and I just lived in fear. It was a devastating existence. 289 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: Lisa says she tried to tell her mom and she 290 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,479 Speaker 1: didn't believe her. Instead, she blamed Lisa. 291 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 6: Whenever I would stick up for myself to my mom 292 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 6: and be like, we don't deserve this, she would tell 293 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 6: us like, who do you think you are? Like you're nothing, 294 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 6: Go fucking kill yourself. That's the way my mom would 295 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 6: talk to me. So, yeah, top model, the therapist all 296 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 6: knew about. 297 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: This, you know the deal. Legally, I have to say 298 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: I can't confirm the things Lisa told me about her mother. 299 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: But Lisa said when she shared this with the A 300 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: ANDTM psychologists, she was still in her early twenties. She 301 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: hadn't fully worked through a lot of her trauma. She 302 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: said she'd thought about taking her own life before being 303 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: on A ANDTM Cycle five. Doctor Stephen Stein is the 304 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: psychologist who worked on reality shows like Survivor and Big Brother. 305 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: You met him last episode. I asked doctor Stein what 306 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: other concerns, aside from aggression and safety issues, would make 307 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: him rule out someone as a potential cast member. 308 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 7: Someone who may show signs of suicide. May I have 309 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 7: had experiences or attempted of suicide. 310 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: Lisa wasn't the only one who told me she talked 311 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: about suicide with the A ANDTM evaluators. Remember, at the 312 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: beginning of this episode, Gina says producers pushed her to 313 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: talk about her own experience with suicidal thoughts. That was 314 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: something that psychologists must have noted before Gina was cast. 315 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Stein said the other red flag he looks for 316 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: are addiction is. Lisa's edit on Cycle five pretty much 317 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: revolved around her perceived drinking problem, and she told me 318 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: the stress of being on A and TM contributed to 319 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: her drinking. 320 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 9: I had been drinking because the way they were torturing 321 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 9: me in my interviews. They kept abusing me with my 322 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 9: childhood drama. They kept manipulating my feelings. 323 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 6: And it was just devastating. I was trying to self sue. 324 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 6: That's what the drinking was. It was me self soothing. 325 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: After A and TM Cycle five, Lisa did another reality show, 326 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: celeb Rehab. That show's premise is in the name famous 327 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: people live in a house together while getting help for 328 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: drug and alcohol issues from a doctor who specializes an addiction. 329 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: We don't know if the A ANDTM psychologists knew anything 330 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: about Lisa's potential drinking problem when she auditioned for Cycle five, 331 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 1: but they definitely knew about it when they brought her 332 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: back for All Stars. Lisa's told me the models on 333 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: All Stars understood the show more their second time around, 334 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: so they weren't as eager to play into the drama. 335 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: Lisa said. When producers couldn't get the juice they needed 336 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: in the confessionals, they turned to alcohol. 337 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 6: They had guys there with champagne, so they're like, Okay, 338 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,479 Speaker 6: well if we can't get them from the interviews, we'll 339 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 6: get them right away and see who can get drunk 340 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 6: and get this thing going. I said no to the 341 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 6: champagne probably about five times. 342 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: I'm not a mental health professional, but if I'm just 343 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: judging based on what doctor Stein told me and the 344 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: information I've gathered about the A ANDTM evil, I don't 345 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: know if Lisa should have been cast on A and TM. 346 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: Even if A ANDTM producers didn't know about her alcohol 347 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: abuse and history of suicidal thoughts before cycle five, they 348 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: should have known after Lisa told consulting producer Oliver Twist 349 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: about how after she was eliminated from cycle five, she 350 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: stayed on set in a whole hotel nearby waiting for 351 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,719 Speaker 1: the season to rap, as is the case with all 352 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: the contestants. While they were stuck in limbo, Lisa says 353 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: she and another contestant faked a suicide attempt as a prank. 354 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: She says that got her labeled a liability on set 355 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: and sent home immediately. But a few years later, when 356 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 1: A and TM was casting for their all star season, 357 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: They called her and asked her to join the cast, 358 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: which she did. There are other models who may have 359 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: had serious trauma in their past, models who made it 360 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: on the show and later went down dangerous paths. Kimberly 361 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: Razuski was a contestant on cycle ten. She had blonde 362 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: hair around face in a poudy expression. She had a 363 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: very cute, almost baby face that masked the pain she 364 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: was carrying inside. 365 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 10: I'm Kim, I'm twenty years old from western Massachusetts. 366 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 11: So what do you do for a living? 367 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 6: I wreck at a bank. 368 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell her. 369 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 12: Do you ever to take money? 370 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 8: A lot of money? 371 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: You do? What do you take money? Oh? 372 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 11: We steal it? 373 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: Yeah? 374 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: Oh god no, the federal offense. Kim's time on the 375 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: show was brief. She decided to leave after the first 376 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: elimination of the season. 377 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 3: Do you want to be here? 378 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 10: To be completely honest, like the whole fashion thing, it 379 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 10: doesn't interest. 380 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 8: Me at all. 381 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 10: Here? 382 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 6: Why did you come here? 383 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 10: I've learned how to like express the pictures, but like 384 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 10: the whole designer thing, like you know, I don't believe 385 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 10: in the whole like you know, I need to wear 386 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 10: designer outfits and like. 387 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 13: You don't need to wear designer outfits as a model. 388 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 10: Well I know that, but I'm just saying, like, I 389 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 10: don't find it interested. 390 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: Do you want to just go home? 391 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, go home. 392 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: Later after the cycle ended, Kim revealed the real reason 393 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: why she self eliminated. Right before filming. Her ex boyfriend 394 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: died by suicide and Kim was having a hard time coping. 395 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: We don't know if Kim shared this information with A 396 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: and TM, but it seems like she might have because 397 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: after the season, she was asked to share the real 398 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: story on Tyra's talk show. Here's Kim's segment on The 399 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: Tyra Show. 400 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 10: Three months before the show, my ex boyfriend committed suicide. 401 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 10: It was by far the hardest thing I've ever gone through, 402 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 10: and at that point in my life, it was so sudden. 403 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 3: I rushed into the whole top. 404 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 10: Model thing, which I actually I loved passion, I loved 405 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 10: being that, I loved meeting Tira, and I wanted it 406 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 10: so bad, but I didn't feel good on the inside. 407 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 10: I was a mess, you know. I got there and 408 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 10: I'm like, this is just overwhelming. I can't do this 409 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 10: right now because all I have is the death on 410 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 10: my mind. 411 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 13: And your ex boyfriend was not the first person in 412 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 13: your life to commit suicide. 413 00:23:58,520 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 6: No. 414 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 10: When I was in seventh grade, my mom committed suicide. 415 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 10: So it kind of even made it worse because I 416 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 10: started feeling like, oh my god, what am I doing 417 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,719 Speaker 10: to people? Why is everyone around me dying? And I 418 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 10: got into a pretty bad depression and a lot of anxiety. 419 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 10: It was in and out of the hospital, having panic attacks. 420 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 2: It was hard. 421 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: We might never know how much of this Kimberly shared 422 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: with the A ANDTM psychologist, because tragically, Kim took her 423 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: own life in twenty sixteen. We don't know if her 424 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 1: participation in the show contributed to her mental health decline, 425 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: but we do know the pressure of being on A 426 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: ANDTM was too much for her to handle. That's why 427 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: she walked off the set herself. But if the show 428 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: conducted thorough psyche vows, how did someone like Kim slip 429 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:57,959 Speaker 1: through the cracks? Unfortunately, Kimberly's story is just one of 430 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: the A and TM tragedies that raise its C questions. 431 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: Here's a conversation Jay Manuel had on his YouTube live 432 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: with drag Queen Raja, who you may know from RuPaul's 433 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: Drag race. Raja was also a makeup artist on A 434 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: and TM. 435 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 14: There's an elephant in the room to this season that 436 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 14: I find a little bit like maybe there was a 437 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 14: curse to it because we got to talk about Jael 438 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 14: and Renee. 439 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: The season they're referring to is cycle eight. That season 440 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: had two contestants who faced tough times after the show. 441 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: Jay l Strauss was one of them. Jl was the 442 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: wild child of her season. She was fun though, like 443 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: if you went out with her, you would have the 444 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: time of your life, but you might end the night 445 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: running from the police. But sometimes her behavior on A 446 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: and TM seemed a bit erratic. There was an episode 447 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: on cycle eight where the models were being judged on 448 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: how well they interacted with celebrities at a party. Fifty 449 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: Cent was there and what started out is a seemingly 450 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: flirty inter action ended with him pushing her into a pool. 451 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 9: Yeah him, mad. 452 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: Jale deserved it because she didn't leave that man alone. 453 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: Jayo was being annoying, but pushing her into a pool 454 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: took it too far. That's where fifty Cent's always been 455 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: an asshole. Here's Jasline, the winner of cycle eight, talking 456 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: to Oliver Twist. She's recalling Jail's behavior on their season. 457 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 11: Jayo was a rock star on our season. She's like 458 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 11: reality TV star Gold Gold. But when you think about 459 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 11: some of these personalities now in retrospect, how and why 460 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 11: they were developed that way, there was actually something already 461 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 11: being rooted from her background that was causing her to 462 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 11: kind of outburn the way she would on the show. 463 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Jaslene seems to be skating around something. We all 464 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: saw Jayl's behavior was off. We don't know if JL 465 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: had substance abuse issues at the time, and I have 466 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: to say there's no evidence that she did, but she 467 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: did have friends who were struggling with addiction. We saw 468 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: her getting news of a friend's overdose death during her season. 469 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 13: Jaylle checked her messages and found out that a close 470 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 13: friend of hers had passed away. 471 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: Hello, what's going on? 472 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: She overdose? 473 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 13: Oh no, okay, I'm gonna call you back because I'm 474 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 13: gonna gosye, because I'm gonna freak okay. 475 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: Oh God. After being eliminated from cycle eight, JL developed 476 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: an addiction to meth and other drugs. In twenty twelve. 477 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: Her family reached out to The Doctor Phil Show to 478 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: try to get her help. When she appeared on the show. 479 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: She looked nothing like the beautiful, vibrant model we met 480 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: on ANTM a few years before. She was gone and 481 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: her skin was blatchy, her teeth had started to write. 482 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: She looked way older than twenty nine. 483 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 15: You're doing drugs, you're living in crappy hotels, you're stripping 484 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 15: in some sleezed ball Jointone didn't know all that, Oh 485 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 15: I didn't. 486 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: Where isn't everybody's business. 487 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 15: I didn't bring it up until you lied. If you 488 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 15: had just said yes, then we would have gone on 489 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 15: and talked about something else. Look, I get it, but 490 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 15: you've had a crappy deal all along. What happened to 491 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 15: you when you were ten years old? 492 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: Oh my god? 493 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 15: That you don't have to talk about it. You know 494 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 15: what I'm talking about, right? And you reached out for help, right? 495 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 15: And did they believe you? No, they didn't believe you. 496 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 15: This isn't just your problem. This is a family problem. 497 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,479 Speaker 1: Doctor Phil seemed to be alluding to something bad that 498 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: happened to JL when she was a kid. I don't 499 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: know if she shared that with the A and TM psychologist. 500 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: Jelle later said she felt exploited by the Doctor Phil show. 501 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: And from the tape it sounds like he was more 502 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: interested in putting her on blast than actually helping her. 503 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: But Jall eventually got clean. She got a job as 504 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: an addiction counselor and remained clean for five years before 505 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: tragically passing of breast cancer in twenty eighteen. Other Top 506 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: Model contestants, including Carrie d English, the Cycle seven winner, 507 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: have shared their opinions about Jal's time on ANTM. Carrie 508 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: D told Gawker she didn't think A and TM producers 509 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: did enough to vet Jail, especially given the stress of 510 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: being on the show and the struggles the model's face. 511 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: After Carrie D added that quote, all they saw was 512 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: a personality good for television. The psyche vow was supposed 513 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: to be a guardrail to make sure nothing by happened 514 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: on set, to try to minimize the things the show 515 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: could be held liable for or that could harm the production, 516 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: But there was a glaring blind spot. It wasn't concerned 517 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: with how the show itself might affect contestants' mental health 518 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: in the long run. After contestants were sent home, they 519 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: told me no one from A ANDTM ever checked in 520 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: on them or their mental well being. They thought being 521 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: on the show would be their ticket into the modeling industry. 522 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: But as we know, many former contestants experienced rejection after rejection, 523 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: in part because of how the show portrayed them after 524 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: the break. The story of one model who says being 525 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: on A ANDTM sent her into a downward spiral towards 526 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: drugs and crime. Renee Alway made it to the final 527 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: three on cycle eight. She did well in the competition, 528 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: but she was the season's villain. She had beefs with 529 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: a few models. One of them almost came to blows. 530 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: It got so bad Tyra came to the house to 531 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: do an intervention where Renee was the subject. Tyra sat 532 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: Renee down beside her and had each girl go around 533 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: and say how Renee had wronged them. 534 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 3: You've been negative to everybody so many times. 535 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: It's like, how am I gonna believe you? 536 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 6: At the casting wig, You're not saying very good things. 537 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 13: I feel like she has more issues inside that she 538 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 13: has to deal with, because I think. 539 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 12: That's just all the front. 540 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 13: She makes a lot of valid points, but she says 541 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 13: that there is stuff going on internally with you. 542 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 2: When we talk. 543 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 6: You had a tendency to talk down to somebody. 544 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: Renee was defensive at first, but after hearing how the 545 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: girls felt about her, she showed some vulnerability. 546 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 13: This is your chance to address all of these girls 547 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 13: right now today. 548 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 12: I'm sorry for anything I might said, took, hurt or 549 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 12: find you guys. It's a defense mechanism for myself. I've 550 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 12: been hurt bite anybody that I've ever loved besides my 551 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 12: husband and my son, it's hurt me. 552 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: From that episode on, Renee tried to change her attitude 553 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: and she made it to the final three on that 554 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: season one thing A and TM Loved a redemption arc. 555 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: After she left the show, Renee did the top model 556 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: spin off, Modelville, a competition reality show that aired as 557 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 1: a recurring segment on Tyra's talk show. Here's Renee talking 558 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: with another contestant, Bianca Golden, about how hard it was 559 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: to get modeling jobs after A and TM. It's very 560 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: rare for black models to work right now. 561 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 13: Le Yeah, because it's really hard for me to find 562 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 13: worn't too, And I'm like as white as they come. 563 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: And here's Renee on Modelville talking about being abused as 564 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: a child. 565 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 13: I went through some horrible things when I was growing 566 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 13: up and it made me very angry and bitter and 567 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 13: just I don't know how to explain it, like I 568 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 13: just get angry with people, you know, Like that was 569 00:32:54,360 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 13: my mentality. And I was extremely abused when I was growing. 570 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 13: And it wasn't just physical, it was mental, emotional, it 571 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 13: was everything. 572 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: Renee came in second place on Modelville in third place 573 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: on ANTM. She did well on both shows, but that 574 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: still didn't help her once she got into the real world. 575 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: After Modelville, Renee's life took a turn for the worse. 576 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: She was a mother, out of work and desperate to 577 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: make it as a model. She said she'd use drugs 578 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: before A and TM, but this time her habit got 579 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: out of control. She developed an addiction to heroin that 580 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: led to homelessness and a life of crime. In twenty thirteen, 581 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: she was arrested on felony burglary charges and sentenced to 582 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: twelve years in prison. She got out early in twenty eighteen. 583 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: We couldn't get Renee to do an interview for this podcast, 584 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: so I went back to an interview she did with 585 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: an ABC affiliate. It was taped while Renee was in prison. 586 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 13: I got into the world and I went I went okay, 587 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 13: like here, I am, you know, ready to do this, 588 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 13: and it was just closed door after closed door after 589 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 13: closed door. That was really hard to take. That was 590 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 13: really hard to take. I felt like a failure because 591 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 13: I couldn't get past the reality TV stigma that had 592 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 13: been put on me. 593 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: It's striking that when Renee was given the opportunity to 594 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: speak out after her arrest, she pointed back to A 595 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: and TM, saying the show set her up for failure. 596 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 13: I mean, let's just take a look at I mean, 597 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 13: just for America's next top bottle, and let's not look 598 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 13: at any other reality TV competition. 599 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: How many of those girls do you see working today? 600 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 13: Very few, even the winners. Most of the winners are 601 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 13: just on doing their regular life or barely making it 602 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 13: in the industry. It's almost like a set up for failure. 603 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 13: Once you're done with reality TV. They don't look back 604 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 13: at you, they don't you know, there's no like check 605 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 13: on you and see how you're doing. It's just over, 606 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 13: it's done, and it's kind of all this build up 607 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 13: for just a very big letdown. 608 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,479 Speaker 1: Like most of the models I've spoken with, Renee never 609 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: heard from anyone from the show after she left. 610 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 13: I can honestly tell you that I did not get 611 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 13: a single phone call from Tyra, from anybody checking up 612 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 13: until they wanted me to do Modelville, and then after 613 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 13: that that was it. 614 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: That was it. 615 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 13: I mean, once you're out the door, you're out the door, 616 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 13: and they look on to the next which you can't 617 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 13: hardly blame them. 618 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:33,919 Speaker 1: Because that's their job. 619 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 13: Their job is to keep moving forward and bringing new 620 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 13: entertainment to the masses, and you know, that's what America wants. 621 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 13: I can honestly say that there was never any outreach 622 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 13: at all done after the show. I mean after the elimination, 623 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 13: while we were still there, still filming, a therapist got 624 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 13: on the phone and you talked to a therapist for 625 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 13: about five ten minutes, and that was the gist of it, 626 00:35:58,760 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 13: you know. 627 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: And they says she doesn't blame A and TM for 628 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 1: the choices she made and the part you didn't hear 629 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: of that interview, she takes accountability for her actions. She 630 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: acknowledges that lots of models are disappointed with their careers 631 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: after A and TM and they don't turn to drugs 632 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: or crime. I understand America's next top model isn't a 633 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: mentorship program, no matter how much Tyra tried to sell 634 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: us the Big Sister Act. Technically, the show doesn't have 635 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,240 Speaker 1: any responsibility to the models after they leave, and realistically 636 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: not everyone was going to have a big modeling career, 637 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: but at the very least, they could have done something 638 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: to make sure the models were prepared to handle the 639 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: potential let down, especially the girls who seem like they 640 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: would take it the hardest. Offering additional mental health resources 641 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: to contestants after a show RAPS isn't unheard of. In fact, 642 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: doctor Stephen Stein says it's something he offers on the 643 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: shows he works on, and he's been doing it for decades. 644 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 14: Only. 645 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 7: What I like to do, and many shows do, is 646 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 7: we give them up to three sessions of therapy once 647 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 7: they have completed the show. So usually I meet with 648 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 7: them all when they're eliminated, see how they're doing. If 649 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 7: we get the sense that somebody needs more help, I'll 650 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 7: refer to someone in their hometown. I'll find a therapist 651 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 7: for them and or choice of three therapists, and they 652 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 7: can continue for two or three sessions or on their 653 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 7: own more than that. Again, it depends on the show 654 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 7: what they're willing to fund. 655 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: From what I've heard, this isn't how it went down 656 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: on A ANDTM. Even contestants I've spoken to who shared 657 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: serious trauma histories or suicidal ideation in their casting say 658 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: they received very little follow up from the show psychologists. 659 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: And I should point out here that wasn't necessarily the 660 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 1: psychologist's decision. Like doctor Stein said, the level of post 661 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: show psychological care all came down to the budget, and 662 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,439 Speaker 1: that's a decision made at the very top. Certainly, after 663 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: the success of its first few seasons, you'd think A 664 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 1: and TM could have allocated more money for mental health resources, 665 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,720 Speaker 1: but they didn't. After she was eliminated, Renee always said 666 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: she talked to a therapist for ten minutes on the phone. 667 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:24,439 Speaker 1: Other models I've talked to said something similar. Renee may 668 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: be an extreme example of someone who couldn't handle the 669 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: reality of life after reality TV, but I know she's 670 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: not the only A and TM model who felt disappointed 671 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: and depressed after leaving the show. Brittany Brower from Cycle 672 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 1: four is one of the many models I talked to 673 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: who felt that way. 674 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 8: You're on this high from top model and then that 675 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 8: starts to slow down. 676 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 6: That's when the depression stage came and God takes. 677 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: A toll on everything. Immediately after the show, Brittany was 678 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: riding the wave of opportunities that came with her fifteen 679 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: minutes of the thing, But as that time passed, people 680 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: forgot about Brittany. 681 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 6: The next cycle comes up, then another cycle comes up. 682 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 6: It just took me a long time to bounce back 683 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 6: from that. I had to like figure out who I 684 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 6: was really again after top models. 685 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 8: And figure out how to truly be me, like the 686 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 8: strong version of me again and not be so like 687 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 8: let down. 688 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: Contestants were told the psyche vow measured their mental fitness, 689 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: but beyond what they could be held accountable for. A 690 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: and TM didn't seem to care much about the contestants 691 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,359 Speaker 1: long term well being. That may be well within their rights, 692 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: but morally it raises questions. After talking to doctor Stein, 693 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: I'm realizing A and TM was a particularly brazen offender 694 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: in the world of reality TV. For twenty four seasons, 695 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: it picked apart women's traumas and bodies to entertain us, 696 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: and afterwards the show didn't even check on them. It 697 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: didn't offer resources, which is the least they could do. 698 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: That's what other shows are doing. At the time, and 699 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: it didn't seem to learn or change its process as 700 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: the rest of the industry took more accountability for their 701 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: contestants well being. Then there's a matter of how they 702 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: conducted the psyche vale and how they used them. If 703 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: they were about safety, why would they cast contestants they 704 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: ruled out as angry or troubled and bring them back 705 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 1: to have confrontations on the show. Why would they cast 706 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: contestants who'd shown signs of substance abuse. Why would they 707 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 1: cast contestants who shared their history with suicidal ideation. Why 708 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 1: would they cast the contestant who experienced the suicide of 709 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 1: two loved ones, one of which had just happened. I 710 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: think it's because they needed them. They needed people with 711 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: traumatic backgrounds, behavioral issues, substance used disorders, and personality disorders, 712 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: people who were likely to act out on camera. They 713 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: needed these people to entertain us. So in a way, 714 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: maybe the psyche Vow worked exactly as producers intended, as 715 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: a way to find the people they thought they needed 716 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: to make a good reality show, which is exactly what 717 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: they did. One last thing before we go, we reached 718 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: out to the executive producer of a and TM ken 719 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: Mock so that he could provide more perspective on the 720 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: psyche vowels and what we've discussed in this episode, but 721 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 1: we did not hear from him before airing this episode. 722 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 1: On the next episode, we'll explore how A and TM 723 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: prioritized making the best reality TV, not the best models. 724 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 6: And I get a tap on the peck Commo should 725 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 6: up from ken Mark say stop it. We want to 726 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 6: see these girls cry. 727 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 2: This is going to make great television. 728 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 6: And I just go back and I'm like, yeah, can 729 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:00,760 Speaker 6: is curtievered? 730 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 3: A lot of those girls didn't get looked at as people. 731 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,839 Speaker 1: They were products. If they were boring, they got cut. 732 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. 733 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: We really appreciate the support. We'd love for you to 734 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: really show your support by subscribing to our show on 735 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and don't forget to leave us a five 736 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 1: star rating and review. If you love the show, tell 737 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: your group, chat, your co workers, your friends, your mama 738 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: to check us out, and if you don't, maybe keep 739 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: that one to yourself. Thanks again to all of our listeners. 740 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production 741 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in 742 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by 743 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 1: Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. 744 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 1: Our story editor is Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben 745 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin, 746 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: Melcurrie Curry Richmond. Consulting producers are Oliver Twist and Kate Taylor. 747 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio 748 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: editing and mixing by Andrew Callaway and Matt del Vecchio. 749 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model theme music was 750 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by mid Music. 751 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: Special thanks to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially 752 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: the models for sharing their stories and For more podcasts 753 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,760 Speaker 1: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 754 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Also check out the Glass podcast 755 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,320 Speaker 1: Instagram at Glass Podcasts for Curse of America's Next Top Model, 756 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 1: behind the scenes content and more.