1 00:00:15,066 --> 00:01:02,216 Speaker 1: Pushkin Pushkin As a girl growing up on a Colorado ranch, Jean, 2 00:01:02,556 --> 00:01:06,706 Speaker 1: Fred's first wife, was gutsy, her sister Carol said. She 3 00:01:06,746 --> 00:01:11,446 Speaker 1: was fearless, bold. She rode horses and swam in rivers 4 00:01:11,566 --> 00:01:17,366 Speaker 1: and fished in the pond. Then she moved away, to Malibu. 5 00:01:18,706 --> 00:01:22,466 Speaker 1: And when she died, at 34, her ashes were scattered 6 00:01:22,526 --> 00:01:26,726 Speaker 1: on the sea. But near the ranch, several miles away, 7 00:01:27,046 --> 00:01:31,846 Speaker 1: there's a tombstone with Jean's name on it. When I 8 00:01:31,896 --> 00:01:34,636 Speaker 1: went to Colorado to meet Fred's daughters, I asked if 9 00:01:34,696 --> 00:01:38,236 Speaker 1: I could see it. Jean was Kirsten and Heidi's mom, 10 00:01:38,616 --> 00:01:40,976 Speaker 1: so one rainy afternoon, the two of them took me there. 11 00:01:42,896 --> 00:01:47,566 Speaker 1: It was a spooky place. Part junkyard, part boneyard. And 12 00:01:47,586 --> 00:01:54,226 Speaker 1: the ominous thunderheads and veil of rain didn't help. So 13 00:01:54,486 --> 00:01:57,646 Speaker 1: what kind of place is this? 14 00:01:57,666 --> 00:01:57,726 Speaker 2: So. 15 00:01:59,586 --> 00:02:02,946 Speaker 2: I'm laughing because we were just talking about the caretaker 16 00:02:03,026 --> 00:02:03,726 Speaker 2: and just like. 17 00:02:03,826 --> 00:02:06,146 Speaker 4: He's pretty quirky, but he was a friend of my 18 00:02:06,186 --> 00:02:11,106 Speaker 4: grandparents also. So there's like a pet cemetery over there. 19 00:02:11,126 --> 00:02:12,356 Speaker 2: This is a. 20 00:02:13,156 --> 00:02:15,526 Speaker 4: Human cemetery. 21 00:02:15,566 --> 00:02:17,906 Speaker 1: We walked over to a large rock with a plaque 22 00:02:17,926 --> 00:02:22,806 Speaker 1: that said Schoonhoven, Jean's maiden name. Jean's name was centered 23 00:02:23,226 --> 00:02:27,146 Speaker 1: between her parents on its own plaque. I asked Kirsten 24 00:02:27,186 --> 00:02:30,176 Speaker 1: to read it. Jean M. 25 00:02:30,356 --> 00:02:33,836 Speaker 4: Raylor, Schoonhoven, 1942 to 1976. 26 00:02:33,816 --> 00:02:38,256 Speaker 2: And the M is for Marguerite. 27 00:02:39,696 --> 00:02:42,656 Speaker 4: I remember my grandpa telling me that they got a 28 00:02:44,116 --> 00:02:47,916 Speaker 4: He showed me this stone, and he said that he 29 00:02:47,936 --> 00:02:50,536 Speaker 4: put my mom's name on there because her ashes were 30 00:02:50,656 --> 00:02:52,736 Speaker 4: spread in the ocean, and they just wanted a place 31 00:02:52,756 --> 00:02:55,116 Speaker 4: to remember her by. 32 00:02:55,136 --> 00:03:01,856 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't feel her here or, like, feel the 33 00:03:01,896 --> 00:03:04,306 Speaker 2: need to come here, even for our grandparents. Like, that's 34 00:03:04,326 --> 00:03:06,986 Speaker 2: what being at the ranch is, is all those memories there. 35 00:03:06,996 --> 00:03:10,586 Speaker 1: Do you feel your mom at the ranch? 36 00:03:12,986 --> 00:03:14,686 Speaker 2: I don't know if I would say that I feel 37 00:03:14,746 --> 00:03:17,636 Speaker 2: her there, but I think about the history. Like, you know, 38 00:03:17,676 --> 00:03:20,616 Speaker 2: that she grew up here and the memories there. And 39 00:03:20,916 --> 00:03:24,676 Speaker 2: actually I think about, like, that our dad has been 40 00:03:24,716 --> 00:03:27,376 Speaker 2: there and, like, he's taken a bath in this tub. Like, 41 00:03:27,416 --> 00:03:32,256 Speaker 2: he talks about taking baths there. And so just knowing 42 00:03:32,316 --> 00:03:36,266 Speaker 2: that they were there. But it's not like I feel 43 00:03:36,326 --> 00:03:38,166 Speaker 2: her presence or anything. It's more just. 44 00:03:39,066 --> 00:03:42,746 Speaker 1: They were so young when Jean died. Kirsten was in diapers. 45 00:03:43,146 --> 00:03:48,546 Speaker 1: Heidi was barely six. Jean is, understandably, abstract to them. 46 00:03:49,646 --> 00:03:53,886 Speaker 1: She's another loss, one they can't quite process, because to 47 00:03:53,946 --> 00:04:04,496 Speaker 1: process that loss might make their pain unbearable. To most 48 00:04:04,536 --> 00:04:07,896 Speaker 1: people who hear Fred's story, the rhyme of Jean's drowning 49 00:04:08,036 --> 00:04:11,756 Speaker 1: and Verno's is uncanny, like something out of Edgar Allan Poe. 50 00:04:12,896 --> 00:04:17,166 Speaker 1: It's so on the nose, it's practically clunky. It's definitely 51 00:04:17,206 --> 00:04:19,666 Speaker 1: the hardest circumstance to give Fred the benefit of the 52 00:04:19,706 --> 00:04:23,726 Speaker 1: doubt about. The mysterious death of the first wife makes 53 00:04:23,766 --> 00:04:27,546 Speaker 1: the second wife's death suspect. And his conviction in the 54 00:04:27,626 --> 00:04:30,616 Speaker 1: killing of the second wife makes the first wife's death 55 00:04:30,996 --> 00:04:36,076 Speaker 1: seem like murder, too. But not to the sisters. They 56 00:04:36,116 --> 00:04:38,916 Speaker 1: don't see it at all. Here's Kirsten. 57 00:04:40,456 --> 00:04:46,246 Speaker 2: I've definitely had hard conversations with my dad about Jean's 58 00:04:46,306 --> 00:04:49,726 Speaker 2: death and just really finding out what happened because I 59 00:04:49,766 --> 00:04:52,226 Speaker 2: was a baby and just like the details and also 60 00:04:52,246 --> 00:04:57,486 Speaker 2: like were there investigations you know like supposedly Jean's dad 61 00:04:57,526 --> 00:05:00,386 Speaker 2: like had it looked into but it wasn't like there 62 00:05:00,426 --> 00:05:06,166 Speaker 2: wasn't a formal investigation but I've definitely asked probing questions 63 00:05:06,326 --> 00:05:08,976 Speaker 2: about it but I kind of see it as like 64 00:05:09,186 --> 00:05:12,856 Speaker 2: look at My dad's history, and I compare him to 65 00:05:12,896 --> 00:05:15,236 Speaker 2: one of the Kennedys. I mean, look at all, just 66 00:05:15,376 --> 00:05:18,556 Speaker 2: all of the horrible accidents that can happen to one family. 67 00:05:18,636 --> 00:05:24,296 Speaker 2: Like fires, bike accidents, car accidents, tractor accidents. Just like 68 00:05:24,616 --> 00:05:27,856 Speaker 2: accident prone or, you know, whatever you want to say. 69 00:05:27,876 --> 00:05:35,266 Speaker 1: Then Kim, Verna's daughter, said something totally surprising. She said 70 00:05:35,326 --> 00:05:37,506 Speaker 1: she didn't know how Gene died. 71 00:05:37,526 --> 00:05:39,146 Speaker 2: I mean. 72 00:05:40,016 --> 00:05:41,396 Speaker 5: Didn't she die of an aneurysm? 73 00:05:42,236 --> 00:05:42,436 Speaker 6: No. 74 00:05:42,636 --> 00:05:43,816 Speaker 7: See, that's— It wasn't that. 75 00:05:44,116 --> 00:05:46,816 Speaker 4: So our grandma kept telling us for some reason. 76 00:05:46,836 --> 00:05:47,696 Speaker 8: So how did she die? 77 00:05:48,346 --> 00:05:51,066 Speaker 2: So she drowned in the swimming pool, but her ultimate 78 00:05:51,326 --> 00:05:53,886 Speaker 2: cause of death was brain swelling and pneumonia. 79 00:05:54,506 --> 00:05:55,746 Speaker 6: From the drowning. From the drowning. 80 00:05:55,766 --> 00:06:01,716 Speaker 2: Hmm. But, yeah, we were told that she had an aneurysm. Right. 81 00:06:03,196 --> 00:06:06,476 Speaker 2: I mean, and I think that's—medically, that is what people have— 82 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:10,476 Speaker 2: You know, there are theories that because she was a 83 00:06:10,496 --> 00:06:14,146 Speaker 2: flight attendant and the altitude, and then she had just 84 00:06:14,186 --> 00:06:16,186 Speaker 2: come back from a flight, and they were drinking in 85 00:06:16,206 --> 00:06:18,946 Speaker 2: the hot tub, and then she got in the cold pool. So, like, 86 00:06:19,546 --> 00:06:23,466 Speaker 2: vessels expanding and contracting. I mean, those were the theories. But, 87 00:06:23,486 --> 00:06:27,446 Speaker 2: I mean, ultimately, she died of pneumonia and brain swelling. 88 00:06:28,386 --> 00:06:32,236 Speaker 1: And I think the coroner's report refers to accidental drowning. 89 00:06:32,256 --> 00:06:33,676 Speaker 1: I mean, drowning was the. 90 00:06:34,256 --> 00:06:35,336 Speaker 6: Cause of death. Mm-hmm. 91 00:06:43,126 --> 00:06:47,576 Speaker 1: I'm Dana Goodyear, and this is Lost Hills. Lost Hills 92 00:07:14,376 --> 00:07:22,416 Speaker 1: Episode 10, Lifelines. Back in 1976, the L.A. County coroner 93 00:07:22,516 --> 00:07:25,516 Speaker 1: said that Fred's first wife, Jean, had died as a 94 00:07:25,536 --> 00:07:29,856 Speaker 1: result of accidental drowning in the family pool. Her husband, 95 00:07:29,976 --> 00:07:32,356 Speaker 1: the only witness, said he found her face down in 96 00:07:32,376 --> 00:07:37,636 Speaker 1: the shallow end. Okay, case closed. Fred hinted at various 97 00:07:37,716 --> 00:07:40,896 Speaker 1: reasons Jean might have drowned. She'd lost a lot of weight. 98 00:07:41,136 --> 00:07:43,016 Speaker 1: She'd gone from a very hot hot tub into an 99 00:07:43,096 --> 00:07:47,126 Speaker 1: unheated pool. She was deep into Lifespring, a potentially dangerous 100 00:07:47,166 --> 00:07:50,366 Speaker 1: self-improvement group. She was having visions of her own death 101 00:07:50,666 --> 00:08:00,856 Speaker 1: involving water. But her death was unexplained. It wasn't until 102 00:08:00,856 --> 00:08:04,676 Speaker 1: 1981 that Jean's drowning was investigated as a homicide by 103 00:08:04,696 --> 00:08:07,616 Speaker 1: the Santa Barbara detectives who were looking into Verna and 104 00:08:07,656 --> 00:08:11,816 Speaker 1: Doug's drownings at Bird Rock. At Fred's trial for the 105 00:08:11,856 --> 00:08:15,596 Speaker 1: murders of Verna and Doug, Stan Roden, the DA, was 106 00:08:15,756 --> 00:08:20,296 Speaker 1: blocked from introducing testimony about Jean until the penalty phase. 107 00:08:21,496 --> 00:08:24,296 Speaker 1: So while the jury was considering whether Fred should be 108 00:08:24,356 --> 00:08:28,376 Speaker 1: sentenced to death, Roden put on a mini-trial for Jean. 109 00:08:29,376 --> 00:08:33,836 Speaker 1: She was an aggravating factor, a reason, in Stan Roden's mind, 110 00:08:34,096 --> 00:08:37,736 Speaker 1: to sentence Fred to death. Roden told the jury that 111 00:08:37,796 --> 00:08:41,616 Speaker 1: Jean's death was a murder, quote, a homicide, done for 112 00:08:41,656 --> 00:08:45,796 Speaker 1: the motive, once again, of enhancing this defendant's standard of living. 113 00:08:46,756 --> 00:08:49,916 Speaker 1: This time, Fred didn't take the stand. But he'd certainly 114 00:08:49,976 --> 00:08:53,306 Speaker 1: told his Jean story before. He'd long been in the 115 00:08:53,346 --> 00:08:59,426 Speaker 1: habit of buttonholing people and recounting the events of October 15, 1976. 116 00:08:59,426 --> 00:09:03,526 Speaker 1: He cornered Jean's friend, Barbara Warner, at Jean's memorial service. 117 00:09:05,406 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 4: I really think he had that story so down pat. 118 00:09:08,456 --> 00:09:09,756 Speaker 9: He rattled it off so fast. 119 00:09:10,596 --> 00:09:15,596 Speaker 4: With so little emotion that I thought, there's something wrong 120 00:09:15,616 --> 00:09:15,886 Speaker 4: with this. 121 00:09:18,016 --> 00:09:20,896 Speaker 1: He told the story repeatedly to his friend Mike Killeen. 122 00:09:22,156 --> 00:09:25,096 Speaker 10: When Gene died, Fred spent an awful lot of time 123 00:09:25,416 --> 00:09:27,676 Speaker 10: at our house. He would come over in the evening 124 00:09:27,716 --> 00:09:32,236 Speaker 10: and cry. He, if we went through it once, we 125 00:09:32,256 --> 00:09:35,796 Speaker 10: went through it 50 times. Every step he took from 126 00:09:35,816 --> 00:09:39,736 Speaker 10: the hot tub to the house, the way I was 127 00:09:40,426 --> 00:09:42,246 Speaker 10: recall the story, was that one of the babies was 128 00:09:42,306 --> 00:09:46,626 Speaker 10: crying in the background. And the vet, when Fred went, 129 00:09:47,266 --> 00:09:48,986 Speaker 10: Fred said, you know, like, you stay here. I'll go 130 00:09:49,006 --> 00:09:50,596 Speaker 10: quiet the baby and take care of the baby and 131 00:09:50,616 --> 00:09:52,456 Speaker 10: get you a glass of wine, which he requested. So 132 00:09:53,176 --> 00:09:55,076 Speaker 10: I believe he said something like seven minutes he was 133 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:57,386 Speaker 10: gone or something because he'd stepped it out and timed it. 134 00:09:58,156 --> 00:10:00,216 Speaker 10: And when he came back, everybody knows the story. Gene 135 00:10:00,256 --> 00:10:02,366 Speaker 10: was face down in the pool and all the terrible 136 00:10:02,396 --> 00:10:03,906 Speaker 10: things that happened at that point. 137 00:10:05,106 --> 00:10:07,946 Speaker 1: Fred even told the story to Santa Barbara detectives, Fred 138 00:10:08,006 --> 00:10:10,486 Speaker 1: Ray and Claude Tuller. when they came to talk to 139 00:10:10,526 --> 00:10:15,096 Speaker 1: him about Verna and Doug's drownings in January 1981. While 140 00:10:15,126 --> 00:10:19,136 Speaker 1: discussing what had happened to Verna and Doug, detectives said Fred, quote, 141 00:10:19,556 --> 00:10:24,776 Speaker 1: continually referred to a handwritten set of notes. That was weird. 142 00:10:25,916 --> 00:10:29,156 Speaker 1: Fred also told the detectives he had notes on Gene's death, 143 00:10:29,496 --> 00:10:33,326 Speaker 1: which they found later when they searched his house. That 144 00:10:33,386 --> 00:10:38,846 Speaker 1: was extra weird. Telling his Gene story, Fred has always 145 00:10:38,886 --> 00:10:41,166 Speaker 1: made a point of mentioning the alcohol he and Gene 146 00:10:41,186 --> 00:10:44,826 Speaker 1: were drinking. And because he was the only witness, it 147 00:10:44,886 --> 00:10:49,286 Speaker 1: features in other people's tellings, too. A story with one 148 00:10:49,386 --> 00:10:53,466 Speaker 1: source repeated so often it comes to resemble truth. 149 00:10:54,746 --> 00:10:56,706 Speaker 9: She had already poured a glass of wine. 150 00:10:56,726 --> 00:10:57,786 Speaker 7: He went in the house. 151 00:10:57,846 --> 00:10:58,686 Speaker 2: To get her a glass of wine. 152 00:10:58,706 --> 00:10:59,686 Speaker 7: To get her a glass of wine. 153 00:10:59,706 --> 00:11:02,786 Speaker 4: She said to him, would you mind bringing back a 154 00:11:02,826 --> 00:11:03,446 Speaker 4: glass of wine? 155 00:11:03,666 --> 00:11:04,686 Speaker 10: And get you a glass of wine. 156 00:11:04,706 --> 00:11:08,186 Speaker 9: We sort of killed off that bottle, and then I 157 00:11:08,226 --> 00:11:09,046 Speaker 9: got another bottle. 158 00:11:10,026 --> 00:11:12,446 Speaker 1: The neighbor boy who ran over when he heard Fred 159 00:11:12,486 --> 00:11:15,736 Speaker 1: calling for help that night said he'd noticed wine glasses 160 00:11:15,916 --> 00:11:19,136 Speaker 1: and a pair of unsmoked joints in the backyard, like 161 00:11:19,176 --> 00:11:23,606 Speaker 1: a stage complete with props. But these were not incidental 162 00:11:23,686 --> 00:11:28,786 Speaker 1: period details. They served a very important purpose. I believe 163 00:11:29,066 --> 00:11:34,146 Speaker 1: they were intended to introduce doubt. Reasonable doubt about how 164 00:11:34,246 --> 00:11:37,526 Speaker 1: Jean ended up in the pool. And the reason I 165 00:11:37,566 --> 00:11:42,066 Speaker 1: think this is, Jean was not intoxicated. Not even a 166 00:11:42,086 --> 00:11:46,516 Speaker 1: little bit. Stan Roden, the DA, presented evidence that showed 167 00:11:46,576 --> 00:11:51,516 Speaker 1: her blood alcohol level was 0.1 milligrams per deciliter. one 168 00:11:51,696 --> 00:11:55,066 Speaker 1: one-thousandth of the legal limit for driving, and there were 169 00:11:55,126 --> 00:11:58,546 Speaker 1: no other drugs in her system. The fact of her 170 00:11:58,586 --> 00:12:02,766 Speaker 1: sobriety is meaningful, and it could mean the L.A. County 171 00:12:02,826 --> 00:12:04,986 Speaker 1: coroner's report was wrong. 172 00:12:06,306 --> 00:12:07,986 Speaker 6: It can't be an accident, okay? 173 00:12:09,006 --> 00:12:12,836 Speaker 1: This is Dr. Ronald Wright, a forensic pathologist who's also 174 00:12:12,856 --> 00:12:13,536 Speaker 1: a scuba diver. 175 00:12:13,996 --> 00:12:21,266 Speaker 6: Adult humans that are not intoxicated... won't drown in a 176 00:12:21,286 --> 00:12:27,216 Speaker 6: swimming pool. It doesn't happen. If it does happen, they 177 00:12:27,316 --> 00:12:33,216 Speaker 6: either committed suicide or they are a victim of homicide. 178 00:12:33,696 --> 00:12:33,916 Speaker 11: Okay? 179 00:12:33,956 --> 00:12:34,676 Speaker 6: It's easy. 180 00:12:35,276 --> 00:12:38,416 Speaker 1: He testified at the mini-trial that Gene's death was not 181 00:12:38,516 --> 00:12:43,406 Speaker 1: due to natural causes. It was unnatural. And unnatural deaths 182 00:12:43,626 --> 00:12:47,266 Speaker 1: are either accidents or suicides or homicides. 183 00:12:47,936 --> 00:12:51,256 Speaker 6: I didn't see any evidence that she was suicidal, so 184 00:12:51,296 --> 00:12:54,476 Speaker 6: therefore it looks like a homicide to me. 185 00:12:55,416 --> 00:12:57,976 Speaker 1: But there were no signs of trauma to Jean's body. 186 00:12:58,716 --> 00:13:02,456 Speaker 1: So during the mini-trial, Roden asked another witness, a pathologist 187 00:13:02,496 --> 00:13:05,676 Speaker 1: who'd reviewed Jean's file, if it was possible for a 188 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:09,836 Speaker 1: person to hold another person underwater long enough to drown 189 00:13:09,876 --> 00:13:14,516 Speaker 1: them without leaving marks. It is possible, was the response. 190 00:13:15,856 --> 00:13:18,246 Speaker 1: In the end, though, the judge ruled that the DA 191 00:13:18,356 --> 00:13:22,216 Speaker 1: hadn't sufficiently made his case. He hadn't proved Fred's involvement 192 00:13:22,236 --> 00:13:26,396 Speaker 1: with Jean's death beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's where 193 00:13:26,436 --> 00:13:30,736 Speaker 1: Jean was left, in a kind of limbo, unresolved, not 194 00:13:30,816 --> 00:13:35,616 Speaker 1: likely an accident or a suicide, and not a provable homicide. 195 00:13:37,376 --> 00:13:39,616 Speaker 1: Before we got off the phone, I asked Dr. Wright 196 00:13:39,716 --> 00:13:42,516 Speaker 1: about another part of his testimony, which had caught my attention. 197 00:13:43,596 --> 00:13:44,896 Speaker 1: Fred Raylor described. 198 00:13:45,616 --> 00:13:50,756 Speaker 12: having found his wife, Jean, in the pool, face down, 199 00:13:51,296 --> 00:13:55,506 Speaker 12: arms outstretched. And you said, that's impossible. 200 00:13:56,126 --> 00:14:00,706 Speaker 6: That's not the way dead people float, okay? When you 201 00:14:00,746 --> 00:14:06,106 Speaker 6: lose consciousness from whatever you've lost consciousness, you know, gravity works. 202 00:14:06,906 --> 00:14:10,646 Speaker 6: Their arms aren't outstretched. They actually go straight down in 203 00:14:10,716 --> 00:14:15,636 Speaker 6: their It's called a dead man's float. They teach people 204 00:14:15,696 --> 00:14:18,516 Speaker 6: to do that in swimming lessons. 205 00:14:19,336 --> 00:14:23,536 Speaker 12: So you found that to be suspicious, that that's his 206 00:14:23,576 --> 00:14:24,656 Speaker 12: description of his wife? 207 00:14:25,616 --> 00:14:26,576 Speaker 6: He's incorrect. 208 00:14:27,896 --> 00:14:29,236 Speaker 9: Okay? She wasn't. 209 00:14:29,296 --> 00:14:32,416 Speaker 6: That's not the way humans are when they drown. 210 00:14:33,216 --> 00:14:35,066 Speaker 1: Did that make him seem like he was lying? 211 00:14:36,466 --> 00:14:40,536 Speaker 6: I would think that's highly probable. Although that is a 212 00:14:40,576 --> 00:14:45,376 Speaker 6: jury determination, not mine. I'm just telling you, you can't 213 00:14:45,616 --> 00:14:47,436 Speaker 6: do it the way he said it happened. 214 00:14:49,256 --> 00:14:54,306 Speaker 1: It was improvable, but it was so obvious. Fred, the waterman, 215 00:14:54,666 --> 00:15:00,006 Speaker 1: the Navy diver, had misdescribed the dead man's float. He 216 00:15:00,066 --> 00:15:03,346 Speaker 1: says he didn't kill Jean. I asked him, just like 217 00:15:03,386 --> 00:15:04,886 Speaker 1: I asked him about Verna and Doug. 218 00:15:05,846 --> 00:15:08,766 Speaker 11: Fred, I have to ask you, did you kill Jean? 219 00:15:10,306 --> 00:15:10,946 Speaker 9: I did not. 220 00:15:13,086 --> 00:15:16,486 Speaker 1: But I don't believe him. And if it's possible to 221 00:15:16,546 --> 00:15:19,976 Speaker 1: kill someone in water and leave no mark, that means 222 00:15:20,026 --> 00:15:24,576 Speaker 1: those second secret autopsies of Verna and Doug don't really matter. 223 00:15:25,536 --> 00:15:29,496 Speaker 1: The findings of premortem trauma could be totally invalid. The 224 00:15:29,536 --> 00:15:34,036 Speaker 1: bodies could present no traumatic wounds. And Fred could still 225 00:15:34,086 --> 00:16:01,036 Speaker 1: be the one who killed them. In the search of 226 00:16:01,116 --> 00:16:04,456 Speaker 1: Fred's house on Sea Level Drive, the Santa Barbara detectives 227 00:16:04,536 --> 00:16:08,456 Speaker 1: seized an 11-page document detailing plans for a sailing trip 228 00:16:08,616 --> 00:16:13,096 Speaker 1: to Santa Cruz Island. It included an incredibly detailed, hand-drawn 229 00:16:13,136 --> 00:16:17,006 Speaker 1: map of the island, including flora and fauna and shipwrecks 230 00:16:17,246 --> 00:16:20,706 Speaker 1: and all the spots to drop anchor. The guy was 231 00:16:20,746 --> 00:16:26,546 Speaker 1: a planner. Fred told the detectives he'd often sailed his boat, Perseverance, 232 00:16:26,606 --> 00:16:29,156 Speaker 1: to Santa Cruz Island. and had the dory out there 233 00:16:29,556 --> 00:16:32,216 Speaker 1: at least a dozen times. He got to know the 234 00:16:32,356 --> 00:16:36,706 Speaker 1: island and its features inch by inch, clocking every cove 235 00:16:36,766 --> 00:16:41,606 Speaker 1: and inlet, how the shadows fell. At the dot representing 236 00:16:41,686 --> 00:16:45,026 Speaker 1: Bird Rock on the map, it says Tunnel Through Rock. 237 00:16:46,616 --> 00:16:48,936 Speaker 1: That's because the sea cave on the western end of 238 00:16:48,996 --> 00:16:54,796 Speaker 1: Bird Rock, at low tide, becomes a passage through. Are 239 00:16:54,816 --> 00:16:55,336 Speaker 1: we on the blue? 240 00:16:55,396 --> 00:16:56,736 Speaker 8: We're on blue. 241 00:16:57,616 --> 00:16:57,896 Speaker 2: Wow. 242 00:16:57,916 --> 00:16:58,896 Speaker 8: John will help you guys on. 243 00:16:58,916 --> 00:17:01,696 Speaker 1: A month after we walked around Sea Level Drive together, 244 00:17:02,256 --> 00:17:05,796 Speaker 1: on a crisp, clear October morning, John Lytel and I 245 00:17:05,956 --> 00:17:07,696 Speaker 1: took a boat out to Santa Cruz Island. 246 00:17:08,736 --> 00:17:13,116 Speaker 13: So welcome aboard blue, guys. Glad to have you here. Again, 247 00:17:13,156 --> 00:17:16,276 Speaker 13: Captain Randy. Fun fact on the boat, John McVie, the 248 00:17:16,296 --> 00:17:18,496 Speaker 13: bassist on Fleetwood Mac, owned this boat for 10 years. 249 00:17:20,376 --> 00:17:22,736 Speaker 1: At the time of Doug's death, when they were both eight, 250 00:17:23,256 --> 00:17:27,076 Speaker 1: John was Doug's best friend. Now he's a detective with 251 00:17:27,096 --> 00:17:28,496 Speaker 1: the L.A. County Sheriff's Department. 252 00:17:29,396 --> 00:17:31,456 Speaker 14: I'm a deputy sheriff. You want me to not bring 253 00:17:31,476 --> 00:17:32,096 Speaker 14: a gun on the boat? 254 00:17:32,856 --> 00:17:33,406 Speaker 8: Oh, that's fine. 255 00:17:33,446 --> 00:17:33,866 Speaker 14: Does it matter? 256 00:17:33,946 --> 00:17:34,306 Speaker 2: Okay. 257 00:17:34,726 --> 00:17:40,266 Speaker 1: And I don't... For 40 years, Doug's death has tormented him, 258 00:17:40,926 --> 00:17:44,166 Speaker 1: but he'd never seen the place where it happened. Now 259 00:17:44,246 --> 00:17:47,906 Speaker 1: he was ready to face it and hopefully get some resolution. 260 00:17:49,486 --> 00:17:52,086 Speaker 1: Crossing the channel, John was chewing everything over. 261 00:17:53,516 --> 00:17:56,276 Speaker 15: Takes him out there. He knows when he's going to 262 00:17:56,316 --> 00:17:57,786 Speaker 15: do it. He knows why he's going to do it. 263 00:17:57,836 --> 00:17:59,676 Speaker 15: He knows where he's going to do it because this 264 00:17:59,716 --> 00:18:01,856 Speaker 15: is the best scenario. I have to make it look 265 00:18:01,876 --> 00:18:04,296 Speaker 15: like an accident. Well, this is what I got. 266 00:18:05,296 --> 00:18:08,306 Speaker 1: He's a chatty guy, but as we approached the island, 267 00:18:08,626 --> 00:18:13,286 Speaker 1: he got quiet. Captain Randy filled the silence. 268 00:18:13,306 --> 00:18:16,326 Speaker 13: Santa Cruz Island is about 28 miles long. 269 00:18:16,406 --> 00:18:18,906 Speaker 8: It's the largest island off the California coast. 270 00:18:18,926 --> 00:18:23,446 Speaker 13: So we'll just be seeing a very small little little 271 00:18:23,486 --> 00:18:26,426 Speaker 13: tiny bit of the island. 272 00:18:26,826 --> 00:18:31,566 Speaker 1: Bird Rock loomed, craggy and imposing, with creases and shadows 273 00:18:31,626 --> 00:18:36,346 Speaker 1: that reminded me of He-Man's castle, Greyskull. At its western 274 00:18:36,426 --> 00:18:39,706 Speaker 1: end was Scorpion Anchorage. We were heading to the other end, 275 00:18:39,806 --> 00:18:40,886 Speaker 1: to Little Scorpion Anchorage. 276 00:18:40,906 --> 00:18:43,746 Speaker 8: We're just entering into the Little Scorpion Anchorage. 277 00:18:43,766 --> 00:18:46,796 Speaker 1: The Perseverance Anchorage on January 2, 1981. Bird Rock is. 278 00:18:50,476 --> 00:18:53,056 Speaker 8: Off to our starboard quarter. 279 00:18:53,316 --> 00:18:55,556 Speaker 1: It was noon. We were right on time. 280 00:18:56,356 --> 00:18:59,756 Speaker 8: And we'll come in here and circle around and find 281 00:18:59,776 --> 00:19:01,116 Speaker 8: a good spot to set the anchor. 282 00:19:04,406 --> 00:19:07,806 Speaker 1: Verna, Fred, and Doug ate their lunch, sandwiches and chips, 283 00:19:08,346 --> 00:19:12,066 Speaker 1: then got in the dory between 1 and 1.30. Kirsten 284 00:19:12,106 --> 00:19:14,686 Speaker 1: went below deck to take a nap with her grandparents. 285 00:19:15,426 --> 00:19:17,946 Speaker 1: Heidi and Kim went with Fred's brother and his wife 286 00:19:17,986 --> 00:19:20,776 Speaker 1: in the inflatable boat. to explore the beach at Santa 287 00:19:20,796 --> 00:19:25,236 Speaker 1: Cruz Island. John and I got in Captain Randy's motorized 288 00:19:25,316 --> 00:19:27,446 Speaker 1: dinghy and powered toward Bird Rock. 289 00:19:28,806 --> 00:19:31,026 Speaker 13: So if we get around there, what we have now 290 00:19:31,046 --> 00:19:32,786 Speaker 13: is a lot of lobster season, so we've got to 291 00:19:32,806 --> 00:19:35,606 Speaker 13: negotiate through this minefield of traps. There's a lot of 292 00:19:35,646 --> 00:19:37,386 Speaker 13: kelp on the other side, so we'll see how close 293 00:19:37,426 --> 00:19:37,906 Speaker 13: we can get. 294 00:19:38,586 --> 00:19:42,416 Speaker 1: The criminalist, Dwayne Mose, had speculated that Fred killed Verna 295 00:19:42,456 --> 00:19:45,496 Speaker 1: and Doug inside the sea cave on the western end 296 00:19:45,536 --> 00:19:48,556 Speaker 1: of Bird Rock, so we headed there. to see if 297 00:19:48,596 --> 00:19:50,496 Speaker 1: the sea cave theory made sense. 298 00:19:51,446 --> 00:19:54,426 Speaker 8: The sea cave entrance is right around the corner. 299 00:19:56,136 --> 00:19:59,576 Speaker 1: I've been thinking the sea cave was too exposed. Anyone 300 00:19:59,616 --> 00:20:02,416 Speaker 1: on the beach, including Heidi and Kim, could have seen 301 00:20:02,576 --> 00:20:04,856 Speaker 1: Fred row the dory in or out of the cave. 302 00:20:05,716 --> 00:20:08,796 Speaker 1: But the mouth of the cave was deep black with 303 00:20:08,836 --> 00:20:10,636 Speaker 1: an aura of darkness around it. 304 00:20:11,746 --> 00:20:14,626 Speaker 15: You can't see anything. You're not going to see anything 305 00:20:14,646 --> 00:20:17,166 Speaker 15: happen in there. Past that first rock, these people on 306 00:20:17,186 --> 00:20:18,646 Speaker 15: shore aren't going to see. You've got to think angles 307 00:20:18,706 --> 00:20:18,946 Speaker 15: out here. 308 00:20:19,736 --> 00:20:21,296 Speaker 1: Everything around the cave is dark. 309 00:20:21,336 --> 00:20:23,466 Speaker 12: You really can't see even an orange dory. 310 00:20:24,966 --> 00:20:29,546 Speaker 1: Going in there. I told John about an earlier trip 311 00:20:29,646 --> 00:20:32,606 Speaker 1: Fred and Verna had made to Santa Cruz Island, six 312 00:20:32,686 --> 00:20:37,036 Speaker 1: months before the fatal one. It was Fourth of July weekend, 1980. 313 00:20:37,036 --> 00:20:41,096 Speaker 1: They took the kids on Perseverance and spent four days 314 00:20:41,176 --> 00:20:45,876 Speaker 1: out there with, get this, the lawyer, Bill Fairfield and 315 00:20:45,916 --> 00:20:50,076 Speaker 1: his family, and Fred's old sailing buddy, Jean's old flame, 316 00:20:50,456 --> 00:20:54,016 Speaker 1: Dick Vilthoen, and his wife and kids. It was the 317 00:20:54,076 --> 00:20:58,586 Speaker 1: hot tub sextet reunited with Verna in place of Jean. 318 00:20:59,586 --> 00:21:03,046 Speaker 1: They had a blast, hiking to waterfalls, shooting off fireworks, 319 00:21:03,326 --> 00:21:06,686 Speaker 1: belting out rounds of God Bless America. It was the 320 00:21:06,726 --> 00:21:11,356 Speaker 1: most perfect Fourth of July ever, Fred wrote later. He 321 00:21:11,396 --> 00:21:15,676 Speaker 1: and Verna rode all around, exploring in the dory. Fred 322 00:21:15,736 --> 00:21:17,776 Speaker 1: commended her for her attitude. 323 00:21:18,616 --> 00:21:21,696 Speaker 15: That's casing the joint. He understood exactly what he needed 324 00:21:21,716 --> 00:21:24,016 Speaker 15: to do to get his job done without anybody knowing. 325 00:21:24,716 --> 00:21:27,906 Speaker 15: That's what, like, technicians will do. They'll plan, like, I 326 00:21:27,906 --> 00:21:28,546 Speaker 15: don't ever forget about. 327 00:21:29,126 --> 00:21:32,086 Speaker 1: A week after the July 4th cruise, Fred and Verna 328 00:21:32,126 --> 00:21:36,566 Speaker 1: had their secret official wedding, solidifying the financial connection between them. 329 00:21:37,426 --> 00:21:41,816 Speaker 1: If she died, everything she had, and more, the insurance 330 00:21:41,856 --> 00:21:45,916 Speaker 1: they'd soon buy, would be his, outright, or in a 331 00:21:45,976 --> 00:21:51,056 Speaker 1: trust that he controlled. After looking at it, I didn't 332 00:21:51,076 --> 00:21:54,366 Speaker 1: buy the sea cave theory. Too risky, no matter how 333 00:21:54,426 --> 00:21:57,466 Speaker 1: low the visibility. And it was too different from the 334 00:21:57,506 --> 00:22:02,326 Speaker 1: story Fred presented to authorities. Fred was methodical, a planner. 335 00:22:02,966 --> 00:22:08,186 Speaker 1: He liked to simplify, hone, control. So I asked Captain 336 00:22:08,226 --> 00:22:10,446 Speaker 1: Randy to take us to the place Fred said the 337 00:22:10,466 --> 00:22:13,766 Speaker 1: dory had capsized, in the open ocean, on the north 338 00:22:13,826 --> 00:22:15,066 Speaker 1: side of Bird Rock. 339 00:22:16,346 --> 00:22:18,106 Speaker 8: So according to the drawings, the boat. 340 00:22:23,206 --> 00:22:29,526 Speaker 1: That's where, according to Fred, Lady jumped at the birds 341 00:22:29,696 --> 00:22:32,716 Speaker 1: and they all lunged and toppled and the dory overturned. 342 00:22:33,676 --> 00:22:36,876 Speaker 1: He said he could see Perseverance anchored at Little Scorpion 343 00:22:37,196 --> 00:22:40,556 Speaker 1: the entire time. That was the point, he said, to 344 00:22:40,576 --> 00:22:42,826 Speaker 1: get a picture of Doug holding Lady in the dory 345 00:22:43,046 --> 00:22:45,786 Speaker 1: with Bird Rock in the near ground and Perseverance in 346 00:22:45,806 --> 00:22:49,936 Speaker 1: the distance. But as we moved toward the spot in 347 00:22:49,976 --> 00:22:53,606 Speaker 1: front of Bird Rock, I noticed that Captain Randy's sailboat 348 00:22:53,826 --> 00:22:58,086 Speaker 1: in Little Scorpion Anchorage was slipping out of view. The 349 00:22:58,146 --> 00:23:00,946 Speaker 1: north face of Bird Rock is cupped, so when you're 350 00:23:00,986 --> 00:23:03,606 Speaker 1: close to it, the sides of the rock block both 351 00:23:03,706 --> 00:23:07,546 Speaker 1: anchorages from view, meaning you can't see or be seen 352 00:23:07,606 --> 00:23:09,456 Speaker 1: by the boats on either side. 353 00:23:09,476 --> 00:23:14,456 Speaker 15: If you're in this cove, you cannot see Scorpion Anchorage 354 00:23:14,536 --> 00:23:16,556 Speaker 15: at all. All those boats on that side wouldn't see anything. 355 00:23:17,706 --> 00:23:18,466 Speaker 14: No way, look at that. 356 00:23:18,486 --> 00:23:20,886 Speaker 6: He's totally hidden. 357 00:23:21,726 --> 00:23:24,926 Speaker 1: If he does it right in here, nobody can see him. 358 00:23:26,306 --> 00:23:28,916 Speaker 1: In front of the rock, there was an explosion of whitewater, 359 00:23:29,476 --> 00:23:31,936 Speaker 1: a geyser that shot into the air as the waves 360 00:23:32,056 --> 00:23:33,636 Speaker 1: pounded into an underwater cavern. 361 00:23:34,476 --> 00:23:35,736 Speaker 14: Oh, yes, that's the whirlpool. 362 00:23:35,756 --> 00:23:47,826 Speaker 1: Let's go as close to that as we can. Fred 363 00:23:47,886 --> 00:23:50,826 Speaker 1: said that after the capsize, he collected Verna and Doug 364 00:23:50,926 --> 00:23:53,466 Speaker 1: and swam with them to Bird Rock, with Lady on 365 00:23:53,506 --> 00:23:57,926 Speaker 1: his shoulders, clawing at his head. He described maneuvering past 366 00:23:57,986 --> 00:24:02,826 Speaker 1: the blowhole, with difficulty, to hoist Lady up. John stared 367 00:24:02,866 --> 00:24:05,266 Speaker 1: up at the rock, the 60-foot cliff face. 368 00:24:07,006 --> 00:24:10,426 Speaker 8: Put the dog up on this side? That's a dog, right? 369 00:24:10,466 --> 00:24:11,146 Speaker 14: Not a mountain goat? 370 00:24:11,206 --> 00:24:11,986 Speaker 8: This is a dog. 371 00:24:12,306 --> 00:24:14,186 Speaker 14: This is a beagle puppy whose. 372 00:24:14,846 --> 00:24:17,646 Speaker 1: Legs can't be more than, you know, three inches. 373 00:24:17,666 --> 00:24:22,126 Speaker 8: All that black is all, like, muscles and stuff, and that's, like, 374 00:24:22,266 --> 00:24:22,646 Speaker 8: it's sharp. 375 00:24:22,666 --> 00:24:24,976 Speaker 14: The dog didn't get up on the island on this side. 376 00:24:25,026 --> 00:24:25,396 Speaker 11: No way. 377 00:24:26,096 --> 00:24:26,996 Speaker 6: No way. 378 00:24:29,036 --> 00:24:31,496 Speaker 1: We idled in our dinghy, looking up at the sheer 379 00:24:31,556 --> 00:24:35,636 Speaker 1: rock wall. The blowhole went off again, and it all 380 00:24:35,696 --> 00:24:43,456 Speaker 1: started coming together for me. Like a story. Fred would 381 00:24:43,476 --> 00:24:48,906 Speaker 1: have rode them here, knocked them out, drowned them, flipped 382 00:24:48,926 --> 00:24:52,746 Speaker 1: the dory and shoved it away, swum a short distance 383 00:24:52,806 --> 00:24:57,886 Speaker 1: to the rock, and waited for rescue. Maybe he offloaded 384 00:24:57,946 --> 00:25:00,666 Speaker 1: Lady on his way to the spot, on that gentle 385 00:25:00,726 --> 00:25:04,056 Speaker 1: ledge on the eastern side, like the Santa Barbara DA thought, 386 00:25:04,636 --> 00:25:08,806 Speaker 1: making excuses to Verna and Doug about why. Or maybe 387 00:25:08,866 --> 00:25:11,526 Speaker 1: Lady was still in the dory until the murder, and 388 00:25:11,546 --> 00:25:13,786 Speaker 1: she made her own way over to the eastern ledge, 389 00:25:14,326 --> 00:25:20,276 Speaker 1: her survival instincts kicking in, her little legs paddling furiously. Verna, 390 00:25:20,496 --> 00:25:24,276 Speaker 1: he would have killed for the money. Doug, because he 391 00:25:24,356 --> 00:25:30,976 Speaker 1: was the witness. We went back to our boat and 392 00:25:31,016 --> 00:25:34,196 Speaker 1: got ready to head home. From the back deck, John 393 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:37,996 Speaker 1: squinted out at Bird Rock. Doug's ashes had been scattered 394 00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:40,816 Speaker 1: at sea, and there was no marker for him anywhere 395 00:25:40,876 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 1: on land. So this was it. Bird Rock was his grave. 396 00:25:47,566 --> 00:25:48,986 Speaker 8: I'm looking at that, and I see all the rocks. 397 00:25:49,006 --> 00:25:50,886 Speaker 8: I'm like, those are all tombstones. That's all death. 398 00:25:51,766 --> 00:25:52,426 Speaker 1: That's how I look at it. 399 00:25:52,426 --> 00:25:58,786 Speaker 14: It's just a weird, creepy feeling. This whole place is 400 00:25:58,826 --> 00:25:59,616 Speaker 14: not what I thought it would be. 401 00:26:04,876 --> 00:26:08,556 Speaker 1: Before Christmas in December of 1980, John had said goodbye 402 00:26:08,576 --> 00:26:11,056 Speaker 1: to Doug, thinking he'd see him again in a few 403 00:26:11,096 --> 00:26:13,616 Speaker 1: months or whenever the railers got back from their sailing 404 00:26:13,656 --> 00:26:19,936 Speaker 1: trip to Mexico. Instead, over the holidays, Doug had died here. 405 00:26:24,056 --> 00:26:27,056 Speaker 1: John looked ill and kept turning his face away from 406 00:26:27,096 --> 00:26:30,206 Speaker 1: the rock, only to have his gaze pulled back to it. 407 00:26:30,216 --> 00:26:36,936 Speaker 14: This is like, death. You just feel death. I know 408 00:26:36,956 --> 00:26:39,996 Speaker 14: it's not like that for everybody, but I'll probably never 409 00:26:40,056 --> 00:26:40,916 Speaker 14: ever come back here again. 410 00:26:40,936 --> 00:26:43,176 Speaker 6: No way. 411 00:26:43,316 --> 00:26:56,766 Speaker 3: It's not worth it. I don't know why that affects 412 00:26:56,786 --> 00:27:01,156 Speaker 3: me so much. I don't know if I don't know, 413 00:27:01,416 --> 00:27:02,836 Speaker 3: back then I wasn't like, I want to be in 414 00:27:02,876 --> 00:27:08,456 Speaker 3: law enforcement to solve crimes, but more helping people that are. 415 00:27:11,186 --> 00:27:13,126 Speaker 15: Helping people that are getting drowned and getting killed. 416 00:27:13,146 --> 00:27:18,626 Speaker 3: It's just, it's not fair. 417 00:27:21,186 --> 00:27:22,026 Speaker 6: It's not fair. 418 00:27:22,106 --> 00:27:22,986 Speaker 2: It's bullshit. 419 00:27:23,006 --> 00:27:27,976 Speaker 15: Like he didn't, he didn't kill just them. He like 420 00:27:28,056 --> 00:27:28,756 Speaker 15: killed part. 421 00:27:28,576 --> 00:27:35,106 Speaker 1: Of our lives. We turned around and headed back across 422 00:27:35,146 --> 00:27:38,366 Speaker 1: the channel with hundreds of dolphins leaping in our wake. 423 00:27:42,806 --> 00:27:45,006 Speaker 1: I asked John if the trip had brought him clarity, 424 00:27:45,666 --> 00:27:49,266 Speaker 1: and he said, yeah. He felt he knew where Doug 425 00:27:49,306 --> 00:27:49,746 Speaker 1: had died. 426 00:27:50,866 --> 00:27:54,656 Speaker 15: It's a great place to kill somebody. Nobody can see you. 427 00:27:55,526 --> 00:28:00,056 Speaker 15: Nobody can hear you. But where that happened, where that 428 00:28:00,096 --> 00:28:05,396 Speaker 15: little cove is, it's like, professor plum with the candlestick 429 00:28:05,456 --> 00:28:08,556 Speaker 15: in the conservatory nobody saw it but you know what 430 00:28:08,596 --> 00:28:11,376 Speaker 15: happened and that when you look at it that way 431 00:28:11,416 --> 00:28:14,036 Speaker 15: it's scary like that area is scary because. 432 00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:14,796 Speaker 2: It's perfect. 433 00:28:33,696 --> 00:28:36,716 Speaker 1: The case against Fred Raylor, in spite of all that 434 00:28:36,816 --> 00:28:41,576 Speaker 1: scientific evidence, was largely circumstantial. If you looked at it 435 00:28:41,676 --> 00:28:45,216 Speaker 1: one way, Fred was a victim of unfathomably bad luck. 436 00:28:46,256 --> 00:28:48,976 Speaker 1: That's been the subtext of every conversation I've had with him. 437 00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:53,536 Speaker 1: His persona is built around this idea of steadfast, stoic 438 00:28:53,736 --> 00:28:58,056 Speaker 1: perseverance in the face of hardship. Looked at another way, 439 00:28:58,466 --> 00:29:03,636 Speaker 1: the authorities way, Fred's a devious and malicious killer. From 440 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:06,436 Speaker 1: that point of view, it's no coincidence that people close 441 00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:10,976 Speaker 1: to him kept drowning. He was drowning them. But that's 442 00:29:11,036 --> 00:29:14,406 Speaker 1: the thing about circumstantial evidence. It doesn't look the same 443 00:29:14,486 --> 00:29:21,946 Speaker 1: to everyone. The first time I went up into the 444 00:29:21,986 --> 00:29:26,546 Speaker 1: hayloft in Colorado, I saw something really strange. It was 445 00:29:26,606 --> 00:29:29,706 Speaker 1: a kiddie pool with a plastic skeleton in it and 446 00:29:29,766 --> 00:29:34,366 Speaker 1: an oar. and a headless dummy dressed in boys' clothing, and, 447 00:29:34,586 --> 00:29:39,636 Speaker 1: not attached, a painted pumpkin head. A skeleton with an oar? 448 00:29:40,196 --> 00:29:43,836 Speaker 1: A dummy with no head? Law enforcement thought Fred had 449 00:29:43,936 --> 00:29:47,716 Speaker 1: stunned Verna with the Dory's oar. A dug-sized dummy and 450 00:29:47,746 --> 00:29:49,936 Speaker 1: a dummy head had been used in the trial and 451 00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:54,816 Speaker 1: helped to convict Fred. Clearly, this was someone's morbid idea 452 00:29:55,036 --> 00:29:58,216 Speaker 1: of a joke. Wait, Heidi, can you come over here 453 00:29:58,336 --> 00:30:04,676 Speaker 1: and tell us about this? So, what is this situation here? 454 00:30:04,936 --> 00:30:07,396 Speaker 1: At first, she had no idea what I was talking about. 455 00:30:08,036 --> 00:30:12,026 Speaker 1: She couldn't see it. It was a random collection of stuff, disconnected, 456 00:30:12,606 --> 00:30:14,236 Speaker 1: not meaningful, unrelated. 457 00:30:15,396 --> 00:30:19,776 Speaker 4: You're looking at a kiddie pool with, there's a skeleton 458 00:30:19,936 --> 00:30:23,636 Speaker 4: in it, and there's also, it looks like a scarecrow, 459 00:30:24,656 --> 00:30:27,896 Speaker 4: and then there's paddles. The paddles are for a set 460 00:30:27,936 --> 00:30:31,686 Speaker 4: board that's not up here right now, and the scarecrow 461 00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:34,446 Speaker 4: my daughter's built for Halloween, we put it down at. 462 00:30:34,406 --> 00:30:38,036 Speaker 1: The Then, like an optical illusion where a hidden picture 463 00:30:38,116 --> 00:30:40,996 Speaker 1: emerges only after you stare at it a while, she 464 00:30:41,096 --> 00:30:41,986 Speaker 1: saw what I saw. 465 00:30:43,336 --> 00:30:47,966 Speaker 7: But it does, now that I'm looking at it, it's bizarre. Yeah, no, 466 00:30:48,066 --> 00:30:54,306 Speaker 7: it's just a pile of junk. With a few skeletons thrown. 467 00:30:54,086 --> 00:30:54,546 Speaker 6: In, yeah. 468 00:30:56,946 --> 00:31:01,306 Speaker 1: I considered whether her explanation was reasonable, that these things 469 00:31:01,346 --> 00:31:07,166 Speaker 1: would have ended up together completely unintentionally, No way. She 470 00:31:07,206 --> 00:31:10,226 Speaker 1: had a plausible explanation for everything, but it didn't pass 471 00:31:10,266 --> 00:31:13,606 Speaker 1: a gut check. According to the law, though, I would 472 00:31:13,646 --> 00:31:16,526 Speaker 1: have to give Heidi the benefit of the doubt. It 473 00:31:16,566 --> 00:31:21,416 Speaker 1: was just an accident. The kiddie pool moment illustrated something 474 00:31:21,576 --> 00:31:25,356 Speaker 1: else for me, too. How much Fred's daughters need him 475 00:31:25,416 --> 00:31:32,296 Speaker 1: to be innocent, and how blinding that need is. Kim's father, Bill, 476 00:31:32,556 --> 00:31:37,116 Speaker 1: died after falling from a rooftop in 1975. Her mother 477 00:31:37,156 --> 00:31:40,156 Speaker 1: died with her little brother at Bird Rock in 1981. 478 00:31:40,156 --> 00:31:40,836 Speaker 8: Heidi and. 479 00:31:42,536 --> 00:31:46,106 Speaker 1: Kirsten's mother, Jean, drowned in the family pool in Malibu 480 00:31:46,546 --> 00:31:54,306 Speaker 1: in 1976. Fred is all they have. Sometimes, when you 481 00:31:54,346 --> 00:31:57,966 Speaker 1: love and need someone that badly, you can't see what's 482 00:31:58,006 --> 00:32:01,776 Speaker 1: right before your eyes. And if they want to keep him, 483 00:32:03,156 --> 00:32:15,786 Speaker 1: they must believe him. A few years ago, Kirsten, the 484 00:32:15,826 --> 00:32:20,566 Speaker 1: youngest of the sisters, Fred's favorite, prime kid, spearheaded a 485 00:32:20,606 --> 00:32:23,766 Speaker 1: petition to ask Jerry Brown, the governor of California at 486 00:32:23,806 --> 00:32:28,026 Speaker 1: the time, to grant her father clemency. The governor's office 487 00:32:28,066 --> 00:32:31,226 Speaker 1: sent someone to interview Fred in prison, And then the 488 00:32:31,266 --> 00:32:34,946 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara DA's office began reaching out to victims, which 489 00:32:35,026 --> 00:32:40,666 Speaker 1: meant they called Kim, Verna's daughter, Doug's older sister. Of 490 00:32:40,706 --> 00:32:44,606 Speaker 1: the three sisters, Kim is the most secretive. Almost no 491 00:32:44,666 --> 00:32:47,136 Speaker 1: one in her life knows the story of her childhood. 492 00:32:48,516 --> 00:32:50,776 Speaker 1: The whole time we were in the hayloft, she rarely 493 00:32:50,816 --> 00:32:55,516 Speaker 1: volunteered anything other than quiet agreement with her sisters. Now 494 00:32:55,676 --> 00:32:56,316 Speaker 1: she spoke up. 495 00:32:57,946 --> 00:33:00,966 Speaker 5: When that happened, I mean, I was surprised by it, 496 00:33:01,026 --> 00:33:03,876 Speaker 5: but then also, like, you know, hurt and offended that 497 00:33:03,896 --> 00:33:06,796 Speaker 5: they even did that. You know, I got his voice 498 00:33:06,836 --> 00:33:08,776 Speaker 5: message and then called him back the next day and 499 00:33:08,816 --> 00:33:12,596 Speaker 5: then just flat out told him that I support my 500 00:33:12,646 --> 00:33:15,686 Speaker 5: dad's clemency and all this procedure and stuff like that 501 00:33:15,706 --> 00:33:17,086 Speaker 5: and then didn't hear from their office again. 502 00:33:17,106 --> 00:33:20,566 Speaker 9: But, yeah. 503 00:33:21,826 --> 00:33:22,656 Speaker 1: This is Kirsten. 504 00:33:24,056 --> 00:33:27,206 Speaker 2: But then, I mean, we doubled down and sent another, 505 00:33:27,386 --> 00:33:31,306 Speaker 2: you know, batch of probably 20 letters of everyone saying like, yeah, 506 00:33:31,386 --> 00:33:34,826 Speaker 2: you may consider us the victim's family, but we love 507 00:33:34,866 --> 00:33:38,326 Speaker 2: and support him to this day. We, you know, want 508 00:33:38,346 --> 00:33:41,866 Speaker 2: you to release him. I mean, how many times can 509 00:33:42,106 --> 00:33:46,506 Speaker 2: the victim's family say that? And it doesn't matter. I mean, 510 00:33:46,566 --> 00:33:52,696 Speaker 2: he's 78 years old with health problems. He's not a 511 00:33:52,756 --> 00:33:56,616 Speaker 2: risk You know, he's not a risk to anybody. If 512 00:33:56,656 --> 00:34:00,836 Speaker 2: he ever was, he's not now. They're accusing him of 513 00:34:00,946 --> 00:34:04,446 Speaker 2: killing family members, and we're his family, so we'll take 514 00:34:04,466 --> 00:34:07,686 Speaker 2: the risk of him possibly killing us. 515 00:34:14,646 --> 00:34:18,046 Speaker 1: Fred was the perfect father who designed the perfect crime, 516 00:34:18,846 --> 00:34:24,256 Speaker 1: murder with no witnesses that left no marks. Once, authorities 517 00:34:24,296 --> 00:34:27,476 Speaker 1: believed he got away with it. The second time, he 518 00:34:27,536 --> 00:34:32,736 Speaker 1: got caught. On the surface, his family was perfect. But 519 00:34:32,776 --> 00:34:36,436 Speaker 1: the real story was what happened below the surface, where 520 00:34:36,456 --> 00:34:41,026 Speaker 1: he held them under and no one saw. I don't 521 00:34:41,066 --> 00:34:44,526 Speaker 1: think the trial or even the investigation was necessarily fair. 522 00:34:45,366 --> 00:34:47,766 Speaker 1: But I do think the jury sent a guilty man 523 00:34:47,826 --> 00:34:54,096 Speaker 1: to prison. But Fred... he's still keeping up appearances. In 524 00:34:54,136 --> 00:34:56,776 Speaker 1: the tapes from 40 years ago, he sounds kind of numb, 525 00:34:57,136 --> 00:35:01,196 Speaker 1: but also irritated, as if he's explaining things through gritted 526 00:35:01,256 --> 00:35:06,796 Speaker 1: teeth to a dim-witted kid. In our conversations, he's Mr. 527 00:35:06,836 --> 00:35:12,276 Speaker 1: Malibu again, genial, affable, chuckling like a shopping mall Santa Claus, 528 00:35:13,126 --> 00:35:16,086 Speaker 1: who you know is just an out-of-work actor in a 529 00:35:16,106 --> 00:35:16,986 Speaker 1: polyester suit. 530 00:35:17,006 --> 00:35:19,206 Speaker 9: Good morning. 531 00:35:20,026 --> 00:35:20,366 Speaker 1: How are you? 532 00:35:21,906 --> 00:35:27,606 Speaker 9: I feel contained for some reason. 533 00:35:29,106 --> 00:35:29,666 Speaker 7: Contained? 534 00:35:29,686 --> 00:35:31,856 Speaker 9: Yeah, that's a joke. 535 00:35:33,296 --> 00:35:36,356 Speaker 1: This conversation was just a couple weeks ago, on December 8th. 536 00:35:36,976 --> 00:35:40,476 Speaker 1: It was our 25th phone call. Fred said he was 537 00:35:40,616 --> 00:35:43,576 Speaker 1: still working on his case. His appeal back in 1985 538 00:35:43,576 --> 00:35:48,186 Speaker 1: hadn't worked. because even though all three judges felt that 539 00:35:48,256 --> 00:35:51,796 Speaker 1: Dwayne Mose's testimony about the experiments with the dummy and 540 00:35:51,836 --> 00:35:54,936 Speaker 1: the dory should not have been allowed, they didn't agree 541 00:35:54,996 --> 00:35:58,256 Speaker 1: on how much it had influenced the jury's decision. Two 542 00:35:58,316 --> 00:36:01,576 Speaker 1: of the judges said that even without Mose's testimony, the 543 00:36:01,696 --> 00:36:03,716 Speaker 1: outcome of the trial would have been the same. 544 00:36:03,736 --> 00:36:08,016 Speaker 9: And then the third one wrote a separate dissenting opinion 545 00:36:08,036 --> 00:36:11,536 Speaker 9: where he went into the whole thing and said, no, 546 00:36:11,556 --> 00:36:13,836 Speaker 9: this is primarily the reason we've got this guy here. 547 00:36:15,216 --> 00:36:18,876 Speaker 1: In recent years, California law has changed to reflect growing 548 00:36:18,936 --> 00:36:23,076 Speaker 1: skepticism about forensic science, which can be so persuasive to juries, 549 00:36:23,556 --> 00:36:28,206 Speaker 1: but is also often total bunk. Now there's an appetite 550 00:36:28,246 --> 00:36:30,886 Speaker 1: to take another look at cases where junk science may 551 00:36:30,906 --> 00:36:34,526 Speaker 1: have played a role in conviction. So Fred's forging ahead, 552 00:36:34,986 --> 00:36:36,086 Speaker 1: serving as his own lawyer. 553 00:36:36,106 --> 00:36:43,816 Speaker 9: So I've been basically pressing that issue along with some others. 554 00:36:44,736 --> 00:36:47,516 Speaker 9: all the way through the court system. So I started 555 00:36:47,676 --> 00:36:52,516 Speaker 9: out with the Superior Court in Santa Barbara and then 556 00:36:52,556 --> 00:36:54,956 Speaker 9: went all the way up to the Supreme Court, the 557 00:36:54,996 --> 00:37:01,016 Speaker 9: Supreme Court of California. And that was just done this year. 558 00:37:02,336 --> 00:37:04,046 Speaker 1: I had a feeling this would be the last time 559 00:37:04,086 --> 00:37:07,366 Speaker 1: I'd talk to Fred, and I wanted to understand something 560 00:37:07,466 --> 00:37:10,666 Speaker 1: that had been bothering me all along, that his love 561 00:37:10,726 --> 00:37:14,786 Speaker 1: for his daughter seems so real. It's the one part 562 00:37:14,806 --> 00:37:18,446 Speaker 1: of his facade I just can't see through. I don't 563 00:37:18,486 --> 00:37:21,446 Speaker 1: think it is a facade. So I asked him about 564 00:37:21,486 --> 00:37:24,986 Speaker 1: his relationship with them and what their unfaltering support has 565 00:37:25,006 --> 00:37:25,466 Speaker 1: meant to him. 566 00:37:27,086 --> 00:37:36,476 Speaker 9: Oh, it means absolutely everything. I'm fortunate that they're astute 567 00:37:37,016 --> 00:37:42,776 Speaker 9: enough and old enough now to really comprehend both situations. 568 00:37:43,776 --> 00:37:50,896 Speaker 9: and to understand the legal process. And basically, they're my 569 00:37:50,976 --> 00:37:55,176 Speaker 9: lifeline at the moment because if I didn't have my daughters, 570 00:37:55,936 --> 00:37:56,996 Speaker 9: I'd be in a lot of trouble. 571 00:37:59,296 --> 00:38:04,616 Speaker 11: What would happen if one of them questioned either of 572 00:38:04,716 --> 00:38:07,516 Speaker 11: those stories that you've told them? 573 00:38:08,736 --> 00:38:14,476 Speaker 9: Sure. Well, I would try... my utmost to figure out 574 00:38:14,856 --> 00:38:19,676 Speaker 9: why they had changed their mind and to do everything 575 00:38:19,736 --> 00:38:24,306 Speaker 9: that I could to, you know, help them understand it 576 00:38:24,566 --> 00:38:30,486 Speaker 9: even better. It's one of those things that knowing the 577 00:38:30,546 --> 00:38:33,886 Speaker 9: three women, it would be hard for me to grasp. 578 00:38:36,326 --> 00:38:38,146 Speaker 11: It would be hard for you to grasp why they 579 00:38:38,186 --> 00:38:39,886 Speaker 11: might have questions? 580 00:38:42,606 --> 00:38:45,836 Speaker 9: Exactly. In other words, there's a lot of things that 581 00:38:46,336 --> 00:38:51,056 Speaker 9: none of us know. And that'll always be the case. 582 00:38:51,416 --> 00:38:55,696 Speaker 9: But what they do know basically has led them to 583 00:38:55,736 --> 00:38:58,546 Speaker 9: stay with me and be with me, you know, the 584 00:38:58,606 --> 00:39:03,186 Speaker 9: entire time and bring husbands up and bring babies up and, 585 00:39:03,206 --> 00:39:08,146 Speaker 9: you know, visit me at all different funny places. The 586 00:39:08,266 --> 00:39:11,756 Speaker 9: old Folsom, we actually had family visits in the hospital there. 587 00:39:13,066 --> 00:39:17,306 Speaker 9: And so I had these three little girls basically visiting 588 00:39:17,366 --> 00:39:21,806 Speaker 9: me for a weekend in prison, which is, you know, 589 00:39:21,846 --> 00:39:25,646 Speaker 9: rather astounding that they had the fortitude to be able 590 00:39:25,706 --> 00:39:31,126 Speaker 9: to face that and basically for us to have a 591 00:39:31,166 --> 00:39:31,786 Speaker 9: pretty good visit. 592 00:39:33,166 --> 00:39:39,276 Speaker 11: Do you think your identity... Is your identity at root 593 00:39:39,776 --> 00:39:41,136 Speaker 11: that you are a good father? 594 00:39:43,036 --> 00:39:46,226 Speaker 9: Yeah. And the thing that we say over and over 595 00:39:46,356 --> 00:39:50,366 Speaker 9: is that I'm probably better as a father in here 596 00:39:50,486 --> 00:39:53,466 Speaker 9: than I would have been out there. Being in here, 597 00:39:53,606 --> 00:39:56,346 Speaker 9: I follow them at every step of their lives and 598 00:39:57,296 --> 00:40:02,356 Speaker 9: listened and shared letters and, you know, I've gotten to 599 00:40:02,416 --> 00:40:05,736 Speaker 9: know them and them to know me. So, you know, 600 00:40:05,836 --> 00:40:08,576 Speaker 9: it's one of those little twists of irony. 601 00:40:10,046 --> 00:40:11,596 Speaker 11: Do you think you'll get out? 602 00:40:13,426 --> 00:40:17,346 Speaker 9: I do, yes, because I know that what they did 603 00:40:17,826 --> 00:40:22,086 Speaker 9: wasn't fair and it violated the rule of law and 604 00:40:22,126 --> 00:40:22,826 Speaker 9: at some point. 605 00:40:25,546 --> 00:40:43,716 Speaker 1: The line had gone dead. I talked to Fred 25 606 00:40:43,716 --> 00:40:48,206 Speaker 1: times for a total of 6 hours, 45 minutes, and 607 00:40:48,206 --> 00:40:53,446 Speaker 1: 47 seconds. He told me about Jean, that they were 608 00:40:53,486 --> 00:40:57,736 Speaker 1: working things out, He told me about Verna, that she 609 00:40:57,756 --> 00:41:01,056 Speaker 1: was the love of his life. He told me about 610 00:41:01,076 --> 00:41:06,546 Speaker 1: their life in Malibu, that it was perfect, wholesome, sweet, 611 00:41:07,686 --> 00:41:12,626 Speaker 1: a dream. But it was right there, when Fred was 612 00:41:12,706 --> 00:41:15,646 Speaker 1: talking about his daughters and the kind of father he's been, 613 00:41:16,546 --> 00:41:23,136 Speaker 1: how they're his lifeline. That was the one moment, maybe 614 00:41:23,396 --> 00:41:30,286 Speaker 1: the only moment, when I knew Fred was telling the truth. 615 00:42:04,566 --> 00:42:08,386 Speaker 1: Lost Hills is reported, written, and hosted by me, Dana Goodyear. 616 00:42:08,846 --> 00:42:13,066 Speaker 1: The editor is Ben Adair. Our senior producer is Haley Fox, 617 00:42:13,226 --> 00:42:18,406 Speaker 1: who contributed a ton of additional reporting. Producers are Nicole McNulty, 618 00:42:18,526 --> 00:42:22,686 Speaker 1: Cameron Kell, and Savannah Wright. Micah Hauser is our fact checker. 619 00:42:23,496 --> 00:42:27,516 Speaker 1: Our composer and sound designer is Dan Leone. Our mix 620 00:42:27,596 --> 00:42:32,096 Speaker 1: engineers are David Herman and Michael Raphael. Our cover art 621 00:42:32,236 --> 00:42:35,646 Speaker 1: is called For a Kid, and it's by Francesca Gabbiani. 622 00:42:36,546 --> 00:42:39,506 Speaker 1: Ben Adair and I are the creators and executive producers. 623 00:42:40,386 --> 00:42:44,686 Speaker 1: Executive producers for Pushkin Industries are Jacob Weisberg, Lital Malad, 624 00:42:44,906 --> 00:42:49,936 Speaker 1: and Jacob Smith. Thanks also to the Pushkin team, Mia Lobel, 625 00:42:50,356 --> 00:42:55,296 Speaker 1: Heather Fane, John Schnarz, Carly Migliore, Amy Gaines, Maggie Taylor, 626 00:42:55,536 --> 00:43:00,836 Speaker 1: Nicole Morano, Eric Sandler, Mary Beth Smith, Brant Haynes, Jake Gorski, 627 00:43:01,146 --> 00:43:08,606 Speaker 1: Sean Carney, Royston Bezerve, Maya Koenig, and Daniela Lacan. Lost 628 00:43:08,646 --> 00:43:12,006 Speaker 1: Hills is a production of Western Sound and Pushkin Industries. 629 00:43:12,626 --> 00:43:17,116 Speaker 1: You can sign up for Western Sound's newsletter at western-sound.com. 630 00:43:17,696 --> 00:43:24,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin's newsletter is at pushkin.fm. Follow at Lost Hills Pod 631 00:43:24,876 --> 00:43:27,736 Speaker 1: on social media. And please remember to rate and review 632 00:43:27,776 --> 00:43:31,626 Speaker 1: the show in your podcast app. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 633 00:43:31,886 --> 00:43:35,446 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 634 00:43:35,466 --> 00:43:36,426 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts.