1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:01:01,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin as a girl. Growing up on a Colorado ranch, 2 00:01:01,796 --> 00:01:05,636 Speaker 1: Jean Fred's first wife was Gutsie. Her sister Carol said 3 00:01:06,516 --> 00:01:10,996 Speaker 1: she was fearless, bold, She rode horses and swam in 4 00:01:11,116 --> 00:01:16,556 Speaker 1: rivers and fished in the pond. Then she moved away 5 00:01:16,636 --> 00:01:21,316 Speaker 1: to Malibu and when she died at thirty four, her 6 00:01:21,356 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 1: ashes were scattered on the sea. But near the ranch, 7 00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:29,476 Speaker 1: several miles away, there's a tombstone with Jean's name on it. 8 00:01:31,556 --> 00:01:34,236 Speaker 1: When I went to Colorado to meet Fred's daughters, I 9 00:01:34,276 --> 00:01:37,476 Speaker 1: asked if I could see it. Jean was Kirsten and 10 00:01:37,556 --> 00:01:40,396 Speaker 1: Heidi's mom. So one rainy afternoon, the two of them 11 00:01:40,436 --> 00:01:45,636 Speaker 1: took me there. It was a spooky place, part junkyard, 12 00:01:45,876 --> 00:01:49,596 Speaker 1: part bone yard, and the ominous thunderheads and vale of 13 00:01:49,716 --> 00:01:56,396 Speaker 1: rain didn't help. So what kind of place is this? 14 00:01:57,116 --> 00:02:01,556 Speaker 1: So we were I'm laughing because we were talking to 15 00:02:02,076 --> 00:02:05,276 Speaker 1: a caretaker and just like he's pretty quirky. But he 16 00:02:05,396 --> 00:02:09,476 Speaker 1: was a friend of my grandparents. Also, there's like a 17 00:02:09,556 --> 00:02:15,676 Speaker 1: pet cemetery over there. This is a human cemetery. We 18 00:02:15,716 --> 00:02:18,036 Speaker 1: walked over to a large rock with a plaque that 19 00:02:18,156 --> 00:02:23,556 Speaker 1: said Schunhoven, Jean's maiden name. Jean's name was centered between 20 00:02:23,596 --> 00:02:27,276 Speaker 1: her parents on its own plaque. I asked Kirsten to 21 00:02:27,316 --> 00:02:33,716 Speaker 1: read it, sure, Jean M. Rayler Schunhoven nineteen forty two 22 00:02:33,836 --> 00:02:39,676 Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy six, and the amas for Marguerite. I 23 00:02:39,716 --> 00:02:44,116 Speaker 1: remember my grandpa telling me that they got a He 24 00:02:44,196 --> 00:02:48,116 Speaker 1: showed me this stone and he said that he put 25 00:02:48,196 --> 00:02:50,996 Speaker 1: my mom's name on there because her ashes were spread 26 00:02:51,036 --> 00:02:54,676 Speaker 1: in the ocean. They just wanted a place to remember 27 00:02:54,756 --> 00:03:00,996 Speaker 1: her by. Yeah, I don't feel her here or like 28 00:03:01,356 --> 00:03:03,956 Speaker 1: feel the need to come here, even for our grandparents. 29 00:03:03,956 --> 00:03:06,196 Speaker 1: Like that's what being at the ranches is, all those 30 00:03:06,236 --> 00:03:10,596 Speaker 1: memories there. Do you feel your mom at the ranch? 31 00:03:12,876 --> 00:03:14,676 Speaker 1: I don't know if I would say that I feel 32 00:03:14,716 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 1: her there, but I'd think about the history, like you 33 00:03:17,516 --> 00:03:20,196 Speaker 1: know that she grew up here and the memories there, 34 00:03:20,396 --> 00:03:24,316 Speaker 1: And actually I think about like like that our dad 35 00:03:24,356 --> 00:03:26,636 Speaker 1: has been there, and like he's taken a bath in 36 00:03:26,716 --> 00:03:29,436 Speaker 1: this tub, like he talks about taking you know, taking 37 00:03:29,476 --> 00:03:33,076 Speaker 1: baths there, and so just knowing that they were there. 38 00:03:33,556 --> 00:03:37,436 Speaker 1: But it's not like I feel her presence or anything. 39 00:03:37,476 --> 00:03:40,916 Speaker 1: It's more just right. They were so young when Jean died. 40 00:03:41,436 --> 00:03:46,236 Speaker 1: Kirsten was in diapers. Hoti was barely six. Jean is 41 00:03:46,476 --> 00:03:51,716 Speaker 1: understandably abstract to them. She's another loss, one they can't 42 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:56,436 Speaker 1: quite process, because to process that loss might make their 43 00:03:56,476 --> 00:04:06,356 Speaker 1: pain unbearable. To most people who hear Fred's story, the 44 00:04:06,476 --> 00:04:10,556 Speaker 1: rhyme of Jean's drowning and Verna's is uncanny, like something 45 00:04:10,596 --> 00:04:13,956 Speaker 1: out of Edgar Allan Poe. It's so on the nose, 46 00:04:14,156 --> 00:04:18,716 Speaker 1: it's practically clunky. It's definitely the hardest circumstance. To give 47 00:04:18,716 --> 00:04:22,316 Speaker 1: Fred the benefit of the doubt about the mysterious death 48 00:04:22,316 --> 00:04:25,476 Speaker 1: of the first wife makes the second wife's death suspect, 49 00:04:26,156 --> 00:04:28,916 Speaker 1: and his conviction in the killing of the second wife 50 00:04:29,276 --> 00:04:33,556 Speaker 1: makes the first wife's death seem like murder too, But 51 00:04:33,756 --> 00:04:36,996 Speaker 1: not to the sisters. They don't see it at all. 52 00:04:38,116 --> 00:04:44,596 Speaker 1: Here's Kirsten. I've definitely had hard conversations with my dad 53 00:04:44,716 --> 00:04:49,236 Speaker 1: about Jean's death and just really finding out what happened 54 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:51,676 Speaker 1: because I was a baby, and just like the details, 55 00:04:51,756 --> 00:04:56,276 Speaker 1: and also like were their investigations, you know, like supposedly 56 00:04:56,716 --> 00:04:59,876 Speaker 1: Jean's dad like had it looked into, but it wasn't, 57 00:04:59,916 --> 00:05:04,436 Speaker 1: like there wasn't a formal investigation. But I've definitely asked 58 00:05:05,116 --> 00:05:08,476 Speaker 1: probing questions about it. But I kind of see it 59 00:05:08,516 --> 00:05:12,196 Speaker 1: as like, look at my dad's history, and I mean 60 00:05:12,236 --> 00:05:14,036 Speaker 1: I compare him to one of the Kennedy's. I mean, 61 00:05:14,076 --> 00:05:17,076 Speaker 1: look at all just all of the horrible accidents that 62 00:05:17,116 --> 00:05:21,916 Speaker 1: can happen to one family, like fires, bike accidents, car accidents, 63 00:05:22,036 --> 00:05:26,996 Speaker 1: tractor accidents, just like accident prone or you know, whatever 64 00:05:27,036 --> 00:05:32,436 Speaker 1: you want to say. Then Kim Verna's daughter said something 65 00:05:32,596 --> 00:05:37,476 Speaker 1: totally surprising. She said she didn't know how Jean died. 66 00:05:38,836 --> 00:05:42,796 Speaker 1: I mean, didn't she die of an aneurysm? No, see 67 00:05:42,836 --> 00:05:46,156 Speaker 1: that it wasn't that. So our grandma kept telling us 68 00:05:46,236 --> 00:05:49,276 Speaker 1: for some reason, how did she die? So she drowned 69 00:05:49,276 --> 00:05:51,996 Speaker 1: in the swimming pool, but her ultimate cause of death 70 00:05:52,116 --> 00:05:58,876 Speaker 1: was brain swelling and pneumonia from the drowning. But yeah, 71 00:05:58,876 --> 00:06:03,356 Speaker 1: we were told that she had an aneurism. I mean, 72 00:06:03,396 --> 00:06:08,356 Speaker 1: and I think that's medically. That is what people have proposed, 73 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:10,716 Speaker 1: you know, they're theories that because she was a flight 74 00:06:10,756 --> 00:06:14,356 Speaker 1: attendant and the altitude and then she had just come 75 00:06:14,356 --> 00:06:16,316 Speaker 1: back from a flight and they were drinking in the 76 00:06:16,316 --> 00:06:18,316 Speaker 1: hot tub and then she got in the cold pool. 77 00:06:18,436 --> 00:06:22,276 Speaker 1: So like vessels expanding and contracting, I mean, those were 78 00:06:22,316 --> 00:06:26,676 Speaker 1: the theories, But I mean, ultimately she died of pneumonia 79 00:06:26,716 --> 00:06:31,156 Speaker 1: and brain swelling. And I think the Corners report refers 80 00:06:31,196 --> 00:06:37,956 Speaker 1: to occidental drowning. I mean drowning was the cause of death. Yeah, gotcha. 81 00:06:42,996 --> 00:07:16,796 Speaker 1: I'm Dana Goodyear and this is Lost Hills episode ten Lifelines. 82 00:07:19,476 --> 00:07:22,676 Speaker 1: Back in nineteen seventy six, the La County Coroner said 83 00:07:22,676 --> 00:07:25,916 Speaker 1: that Fred's first wife, Jean, had died as a result 84 00:07:25,956 --> 00:07:30,036 Speaker 1: of accidental drowning in the family pool. Her husband, the 85 00:07:30,076 --> 00:07:32,436 Speaker 1: only witness, said he found her face down in the 86 00:07:32,516 --> 00:07:38,076 Speaker 1: shallow end. Okay, case closed. Fred hinted at various reasons 87 00:07:38,156 --> 00:07:40,916 Speaker 1: Jean might have drowned. She lost a lot of weight, 88 00:07:41,076 --> 00:07:42,996 Speaker 1: She'd gone from a very hot, hot tub into an 89 00:07:43,076 --> 00:07:46,596 Speaker 1: unheeded pool. She was deep into Life Spring, a potentially 90 00:07:46,676 --> 00:07:49,876 Speaker 1: dangerous self improvement group. She was having visions of her 91 00:07:49,876 --> 00:07:58,916 Speaker 1: own death involving water, but her death was unexplained. It 92 00:07:58,956 --> 00:08:03,036 Speaker 1: wasn't until nineteen eighty one that Jean's drowning was investigated 93 00:08:03,116 --> 00:08:06,476 Speaker 1: as a homicide by the Santa Barbara detectives, who were 94 00:08:06,516 --> 00:08:11,196 Speaker 1: looking into Verna and Doug's drownings at Rock. At Fred's 95 00:08:11,196 --> 00:08:14,396 Speaker 1: trial for the murders of Verna and Doug stan Rowdin. 96 00:08:14,556 --> 00:08:19,116 Speaker 1: The DA was blocked from introducing testimony about Jean until 97 00:08:19,316 --> 00:08:23,636 Speaker 1: the penalty phase, So while the jury was considering whether 98 00:08:23,676 --> 00:08:26,636 Speaker 1: Fred should be sentenced to death, Rodin put on a 99 00:08:26,676 --> 00:08:31,996 Speaker 1: mini trial for Jean. She was an aggravating factor, a 100 00:08:32,116 --> 00:08:35,516 Speaker 1: reason in San Rowdin's mind to sentence Fred to death. 101 00:08:36,596 --> 00:08:39,156 Speaker 1: Rowden told the jury that Jean's death was a murder 102 00:08:39,676 --> 00:08:43,236 Speaker 1: quote a homicide done for the motive once again of 103 00:08:43,396 --> 00:08:47,756 Speaker 1: enhancing this defendant's standard of living. This time, Fred didn't 104 00:08:47,796 --> 00:08:51,476 Speaker 1: take the stand, but he'd certainly told his Jean's story before. 105 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:54,876 Speaker 1: He'd long been in the habit of buttonholing people and 106 00:08:54,956 --> 00:08:59,396 Speaker 1: recounting the events of October fifteenth, nineteen seventy six. He 107 00:08:59,556 --> 00:09:05,396 Speaker 1: cornered Jean's friend Barbara Warner at Jean's memorial service. I 108 00:09:05,556 --> 00:09:08,476 Speaker 1: really think he had that story so down patch. He 109 00:09:08,556 --> 00:09:12,996 Speaker 1: rattled off so bad with so little emotion, that I 110 00:09:13,036 --> 00:09:19,876 Speaker 1: thought with him. He told the story repeatedly to his 111 00:09:19,916 --> 00:09:24,556 Speaker 1: friend Mike Colleen. When Jean died. Fred spent an awful 112 00:09:24,596 --> 00:09:27,196 Speaker 1: lot of time at our house. He would come over 113 00:09:27,196 --> 00:09:31,756 Speaker 1: in the evening and cry, he if we went through 114 00:09:31,756 --> 00:09:35,196 Speaker 1: it once, we went through it fifty times. Every step 115 00:09:35,236 --> 00:09:39,116 Speaker 1: he took from the hot tub to the house. The 116 00:09:39,156 --> 00:09:41,796 Speaker 1: way I recall the story was that one of the 117 00:09:41,796 --> 00:09:46,596 Speaker 1: babies was crying in the background, and that when Fred went, 118 00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:49,196 Speaker 1: Fred said, you know, like you stay here algi quay 119 00:09:49,356 --> 00:09:50,796 Speaker 1: the baby and take care of the baby and get 120 00:09:50,796 --> 00:09:52,956 Speaker 1: you a glass of wine, which he requested. So I 121 00:09:53,236 --> 00:09:55,076 Speaker 1: believe he sais on the next seven minutes he was 122 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:57,316 Speaker 1: gone or something, because he'd stepped it out and timed it, 123 00:09:57,996 --> 00:10:00,356 Speaker 1: and when he came back. Everybody knows the story. Jeanne's 124 00:10:00,516 --> 00:10:02,596 Speaker 1: face out of the pool and all the terrible things 125 00:10:02,596 --> 00:10:06,156 Speaker 1: had happened at that point. Fred even told the story 126 00:10:06,156 --> 00:10:09,676 Speaker 1: to Santa Barbara detectives Fred Ray and Claude Tell when 127 00:10:09,676 --> 00:10:11,916 Speaker 1: they came to talk to him about Verna and Doug's 128 00:10:11,956 --> 00:10:15,916 Speaker 1: drownings in January nineteen eighty one. While discussing what had 129 00:10:15,916 --> 00:10:20,196 Speaker 1: happened to Verna and Doug, detective said Fred quote continually 130 00:10:20,236 --> 00:10:24,756 Speaker 1: referred to a handwritten set of notes that was weird. 131 00:10:25,836 --> 00:10:29,196 Speaker 1: Fred also told the detectives he had notes on Jean's death, 132 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:33,316 Speaker 1: which they found later when they searched his house that 133 00:10:33,476 --> 00:10:38,876 Speaker 1: was extra weird. Telling his gene story, Fred has always 134 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:41,116 Speaker 1: made a point of mentioning the alcohol he and Jean 135 00:10:41,196 --> 00:10:44,716 Speaker 1: were drinking, and because he was the only witness. It 136 00:10:44,836 --> 00:10:49,276 Speaker 1: features in other people's tellings too, A story with one 137 00:10:49,356 --> 00:10:54,796 Speaker 1: source repeated so often it comes to resemble truth. She 138 00:10:54,836 --> 00:10:57,356 Speaker 1: had already poured a glass of wine, even in the 139 00:10:57,436 --> 00:11:01,716 Speaker 1: house to get her glass of wine to him, Would 140 00:11:01,756 --> 00:11:04,716 Speaker 1: you mind bringing back to get your glass of wine. 141 00:11:04,836 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 1: We sort of sold off that bottle, and then I 142 00:11:08,156 --> 00:11:11,716 Speaker 1: got another bottle. The neighbor boy who ran over when 143 00:11:11,716 --> 00:11:14,556 Speaker 1: he heard Fred calling for help that night, said he'd 144 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:17,556 Speaker 1: noticed wine glasses and a pair of unsmoked joints in 145 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:22,436 Speaker 1: the backyard, like a stage complete with props. But these 146 00:11:22,476 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 1: were not incidental period details. They served a very important purpose. 147 00:11:28,156 --> 00:11:33,076 Speaker 1: I believe they were intended to introduce doubt, reasonable doubt 148 00:11:33,476 --> 00:11:37,036 Speaker 1: about how Jean ended up in the pool. And the 149 00:11:37,116 --> 00:11:41,636 Speaker 1: reason I think this is Jean was not intoxicated, not 150 00:11:41,756 --> 00:11:45,956 Speaker 1: even a little bit. Stan Rowdin the DA presented evidence 151 00:11:46,036 --> 00:11:49,676 Speaker 1: that showed her blood alcohol level was point one milligrams 152 00:11:49,716 --> 00:11:54,116 Speaker 1: per desolator, one one thousandth of the legal limit for driving, 153 00:11:54,596 --> 00:11:57,836 Speaker 1: and there were no other drugs in her system. The 154 00:11:57,956 --> 00:12:01,756 Speaker 1: fact of her sobriety is meaningful, and it could mean 155 00:12:01,956 --> 00:12:06,676 Speaker 1: the La County coroner's report was wrong, and it can't 156 00:12:06,716 --> 00:12:11,516 Speaker 1: be accident. Okay, this is doctor Ronald Wright, a forensic 157 00:12:11,556 --> 00:12:15,556 Speaker 1: pathologist who's also a scuba diver. Adult humans that are 158 00:12:15,716 --> 00:12:24,316 Speaker 1: not intoxicated won't drown in a swimming pool. It doesn't happen. 159 00:12:25,396 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 1: If it does happen, they either committed suicide or they 160 00:12:31,476 --> 00:12:35,916 Speaker 1: are a victim of homicide. Okay, it's easy. He testified 161 00:12:35,956 --> 00:12:38,716 Speaker 1: at the mini trial, the Jeen's death was not due 162 00:12:38,716 --> 00:12:43,676 Speaker 1: to natural causes. It was unnatural, and unnatural deaths are 163 00:12:43,716 --> 00:12:48,756 Speaker 1: either accidents or suicides or homicides. I didn't see any 164 00:12:48,796 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 1: evidence that she was suicidal, so therefore it looks like 165 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:56,596 Speaker 1: a homicide to me. But there were no signs of 166 00:12:56,636 --> 00:13:00,356 Speaker 1: trauma to Jean's body. So during the mini trial, Rodin 167 00:13:00,396 --> 00:13:04,316 Speaker 1: asked another witness, a pathologist who'd reviewed Jean's file, if 168 00:13:04,316 --> 00:13:07,636 Speaker 1: it was possible for a person to hold another person 169 00:13:08,236 --> 00:13:12,676 Speaker 1: underwater law enough to drown them without leaving marks. It 170 00:13:12,876 --> 00:13:16,756 Speaker 1: is possible, was the response. In the end, though the 171 00:13:16,876 --> 00:13:19,876 Speaker 1: judge ruled that the DA hadn't sufficiently made his case. 172 00:13:20,476 --> 00:13:23,916 Speaker 1: He hadn't proved Fred's involvement with Jean's death. Beyond a 173 00:13:23,956 --> 00:13:27,796 Speaker 1: reasonable doubt, and that's where Jean was left in a 174 00:13:27,876 --> 00:13:32,996 Speaker 1: kind of limbo, unresolved, not likely an accident or a suicide, 175 00:13:33,516 --> 00:13:38,516 Speaker 1: and not approvable homicide. Before we got off the phone, 176 00:13:38,596 --> 00:13:41,316 Speaker 1: I asked doctor Wright about another part of his testimony 177 00:13:41,316 --> 00:13:46,476 Speaker 1: which had caught my attention. Fred Rayler described having found 178 00:13:46,596 --> 00:13:52,556 Speaker 1: his wife Jean, in the pool, face down, arms outstretched, 179 00:13:53,356 --> 00:13:57,716 Speaker 1: and you said, that's impossible. That's not the way dead 180 00:13:57,716 --> 00:14:03,476 Speaker 1: people float. Okay, when you lose consciousness from whatever you've 181 00:14:03,516 --> 00:14:08,556 Speaker 1: lost consciousness, you know gravity works. Their arms aren't outstretched. 182 00:14:08,556 --> 00:14:13,316 Speaker 1: They actually goes straight down in there. It's called a 183 00:14:13,476 --> 00:14:17,436 Speaker 1: dead man's float. They teach people to do that in 184 00:14:17,596 --> 00:14:22,956 Speaker 1: swimming lessons. So you found that to be suspicious that 185 00:14:22,956 --> 00:14:28,356 Speaker 1: that's what his description of his wife. He's incorrect, Okay, 186 00:14:28,596 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 1: she wasn't. That's not the way humans are when they grown. 187 00:14:33,156 --> 00:14:36,596 Speaker 1: Did that make him seem like he was lying? I 188 00:14:36,636 --> 00:14:42,276 Speaker 1: would think that's highly probable, although that is a jury determination, 189 00:14:42,556 --> 00:14:45,956 Speaker 1: not mine. I'm just telling you you can't do it 190 00:14:46,036 --> 00:14:50,916 Speaker 1: the way he said it happened. It was improvable. But 191 00:14:50,996 --> 00:14:55,476 Speaker 1: it was so obvious. Fred the waterman, the navy diver 192 00:14:56,076 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 1: had misdescribed the dead man's float. He says he didn't 193 00:15:00,716 --> 00:15:03,836 Speaker 1: kill Jean. I asked him, just like I asked him 194 00:15:03,836 --> 00:15:07,236 Speaker 1: about Verna and Doug. Fred, I have to ask you, 195 00:15:07,916 --> 00:15:13,636 Speaker 1: did you kill Jean? I did not, but I don't 196 00:15:13,676 --> 00:15:17,276 Speaker 1: believe him. And if it's possible to kill someone in 197 00:15:17,356 --> 00:15:21,316 Speaker 1: water and leave no mark, that means those second secret 198 00:15:21,356 --> 00:15:26,156 Speaker 1: autopsies of Vernon and Dug don't really matter. The findings 199 00:15:26,156 --> 00:15:29,836 Speaker 1: of pre mortem trauma could be totally invalid, the bodies 200 00:15:29,876 --> 00:15:34,156 Speaker 1: could present no traumatic wounds, and Fred could still be 201 00:15:34,196 --> 00:16:01,476 Speaker 1: the one who killed them. In the search of Fred's 202 00:16:01,516 --> 00:16:04,916 Speaker 1: house on Sea Level Drive, the Santa Barbara detective seized 203 00:16:04,956 --> 00:16:08,476 Speaker 1: an eleven page document detailing plans for a sailing trip 204 00:16:08,516 --> 00:16:13,036 Speaker 1: to Santa Island. It included an incredibly detailed hand drawn 205 00:16:13,156 --> 00:16:17,036 Speaker 1: map of the island, including flora and fauna and shipwrecks, 206 00:16:17,156 --> 00:16:20,636 Speaker 1: and all the spots to drop anchor. The guy was 207 00:16:20,676 --> 00:16:25,276 Speaker 1: a planner. Fred told the detectives he had often sailed 208 00:16:25,276 --> 00:16:28,316 Speaker 1: his boat Perseverance to Santa Cruz Island and had the 209 00:16:28,396 --> 00:16:31,836 Speaker 1: dory out there at least a dozen times. He got 210 00:16:31,836 --> 00:16:34,916 Speaker 1: to know the island and its features inch by inch, 211 00:16:35,396 --> 00:16:40,516 Speaker 1: clocking every cove and inlet. How the shadows fell at 212 00:16:40,556 --> 00:16:43,636 Speaker 1: the dot representing Bird Rock on the map, it says 213 00:16:43,956 --> 00:16:48,156 Speaker 1: tunnel through rock. That's because the sea cave on the 214 00:16:48,196 --> 00:16:51,476 Speaker 1: western end of Bird Rock at low tide becomes a 215 00:16:51,556 --> 00:16:58,716 Speaker 1: passage through are on the John will help you, guys. 216 00:16:58,716 --> 00:17:01,316 Speaker 1: On a month after we walked around Sea Level Drive 217 00:17:01,356 --> 00:17:05,556 Speaker 1: together on a crisp clear October morning, John Lytell and 218 00:17:05,636 --> 00:17:08,676 Speaker 1: I took a boat out to Santa Cruz Island. So 219 00:17:09,116 --> 00:17:11,756 Speaker 1: welcome to board Blue guys. Glad to have you here. 220 00:17:12,036 --> 00:17:15,716 Speaker 1: Um again, Captain Randy fun Fact on the boat, John 221 00:17:15,796 --> 00:17:18,036 Speaker 1: McVie the basis on Fleetwood. Mac owned this boat for 222 00:17:18,076 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 1: ten years. At the time of Doug's death, when they 223 00:17:22,076 --> 00:17:26,236 Speaker 1: were both eight, John was Doug's best friend. Now he's 224 00:17:26,236 --> 00:17:29,676 Speaker 1: a detective with the La County Sheriff's Department. I'm a 225 00:17:29,676 --> 00:17:31,756 Speaker 1: deputy sheriff. You want me to not bring a gun 226 00:17:31,756 --> 00:17:39,516 Speaker 1: on the boat. Sorry. For forty years, Doug's death has 227 00:17:39,556 --> 00:17:42,916 Speaker 1: tormented him, but he'd never seen the place where it happened. 228 00:17:43,916 --> 00:17:46,996 Speaker 1: Now he was ready to face it and hopefully get 229 00:17:47,076 --> 00:17:52,076 Speaker 1: some resolution. Crossing the channel, John was chewing everything over. 230 00:17:53,316 --> 00:17:56,116 Speaker 1: He takes him out there. Um, he knows when he's 231 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:57,756 Speaker 1: gonna do it, he knows why he's gonna do it, 232 00:17:57,796 --> 00:17:59,676 Speaker 1: he knows where he's going to do it. Because this 233 00:17:59,756 --> 00:18:01,916 Speaker 1: is the best scenario. I have to make it look 234 00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:05,476 Speaker 1: like an accident. Well, this is what I got. He's 235 00:18:05,476 --> 00:18:08,636 Speaker 1: a chatty guy, but as we approached the island, he 236 00:18:08,676 --> 00:18:14,076 Speaker 1: got Captain Randy filled the silence. So Santa Cruz Island 237 00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:17,716 Speaker 1: is about twenty eight miles long. It's the largest island 238 00:18:17,756 --> 00:18:21,516 Speaker 1: off the California coast. So we'll just be seeing a 239 00:18:21,636 --> 00:18:25,436 Speaker 1: very small, little, little tiny bit of the island. And 240 00:18:25,476 --> 00:18:30,836 Speaker 1: then a bird rock loomed, craggy and imposing with creases 241 00:18:30,836 --> 00:18:34,636 Speaker 1: and shadows that reminded me of he Man's Castle Gray Skull. 242 00:18:35,556 --> 00:18:39,076 Speaker 1: At its western end was Scorpion Anchorage. We were heading 243 00:18:39,116 --> 00:18:41,836 Speaker 1: to the other end to Little Scorpion Anchor. Just entering 244 00:18:41,916 --> 00:18:46,236 Speaker 1: into the little Scorpion Anchory, the Perseverance anchored on January second, 245 00:18:46,476 --> 00:18:52,916 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, rock is off to our starboard quarter. 246 00:18:53,236 --> 00:18:57,556 Speaker 1: It was noon. We were right on time, and we'll 247 00:18:57,556 --> 00:19:00,036 Speaker 1: come in here and circle around and find a find 248 00:19:00,036 --> 00:19:05,236 Speaker 1: a good spot to set the anchor verna. Fred and 249 00:19:05,316 --> 00:19:08,796 Speaker 1: Doug ate their lunch sandwiches and chips then got in 250 00:19:08,836 --> 00:19:12,596 Speaker 1: the door. Between one and one thirty, Kirsen went below 251 00:19:12,676 --> 00:19:15,796 Speaker 1: deck to take a nap with her grandparents. Heidi and 252 00:19:15,876 --> 00:19:18,116 Speaker 1: Kim went with Fred's brother and his wife in the 253 00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:21,476 Speaker 1: inflatable boat to explore the beach at Santa Cruz Island. 254 00:19:22,876 --> 00:19:26,076 Speaker 1: John and I got in Captain Randy's motorized dinghy and 255 00:19:26,156 --> 00:19:30,516 Speaker 1: powered toward Bird Rock. So if we get around, what 256 00:19:30,596 --> 00:19:32,436 Speaker 1: we have now is a lot to lobster season, so 257 00:19:32,436 --> 00:19:34,476 Speaker 1: we got to negotiate through this might feel the traps. 258 00:19:34,916 --> 00:19:36,516 Speaker 1: There's a lot of kilp on the other side, so 259 00:19:36,556 --> 00:19:39,716 Speaker 1: we'll see how close we can get. The criminalist Duane 260 00:19:39,756 --> 00:19:43,556 Speaker 1: Moza had speculated that Fred killed Verna and Doug inside 261 00:19:43,556 --> 00:19:46,196 Speaker 1: the sea cave on the western end of Bird Rock, 262 00:19:46,596 --> 00:19:49,276 Speaker 1: so we headed there to see if the sea cave 263 00:19:49,356 --> 00:19:56,276 Speaker 1: theory made sense. Cave entrances right around the quartery. I've 264 00:19:56,316 --> 00:19:59,676 Speaker 1: been thinking the sea cave was too exposed. Anyone on 265 00:19:59,716 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 1: the beach, including Heidi and Kim, could have seen Fred 266 00:20:02,956 --> 00:20:05,716 Speaker 1: row the dory in or out of the cave, but 267 00:20:05,836 --> 00:20:08,916 Speaker 1: the mouth of the cave was deep black with an 268 00:20:09,116 --> 00:20:13,036 Speaker 1: aura of darkness around it. You can't see anything. You're 269 00:20:13,036 --> 00:20:16,476 Speaker 1: not gonna see anything happening there, Pass up first rock, 270 00:20:16,596 --> 00:20:18,116 Speaker 1: these people on shore work, and you see, you gotta 271 00:20:18,116 --> 00:20:21,236 Speaker 1: think angles out here. Everything around the cave is dark. 272 00:20:21,316 --> 00:20:25,596 Speaker 1: You really can't see even an orange the dory going 273 00:20:25,596 --> 00:20:29,876 Speaker 1: in there. I told John about an earlier trip Fred 274 00:20:29,876 --> 00:20:32,996 Speaker 1: and Verna had made to Santa Cruz Island six months 275 00:20:33,036 --> 00:20:36,516 Speaker 1: before the fatal one. It was Fourth of July weekend 276 00:20:36,836 --> 00:20:40,556 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty. They took the kids on perseverance and spent 277 00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:45,076 Speaker 1: four days out there with get this, the lawyer Bill 278 00:20:45,156 --> 00:20:49,436 Speaker 1: Fairfield and his family, and Fred's old sailing buddy, Jean's 279 00:20:49,436 --> 00:20:53,756 Speaker 1: old flame Dick Philthowen and his wife and kids. It 280 00:20:53,796 --> 00:20:58,036 Speaker 1: was the hot Tub Sextet reunited with Verna in place 281 00:20:58,076 --> 00:21:02,236 Speaker 1: of Jean. They had a blast hiking to waterfalls, shooting 282 00:21:02,236 --> 00:21:06,396 Speaker 1: off fireworks, belting out rounds of God bless America. It 283 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:09,716 Speaker 1: was the most perfect Fourth of July ever. Wrote later. 284 00:21:11,116 --> 00:21:14,596 Speaker 1: He and Verna rode all around exploring in the dory. 285 00:21:15,316 --> 00:21:19,636 Speaker 1: Fred commended her for her attitude. That's casing the joint. 286 00:21:20,036 --> 00:21:22,436 Speaker 1: He understood exactly what he needed to do to get 287 00:21:22,476 --> 00:21:26,396 Speaker 1: his job done without anybody knowing. That's what like technicians 288 00:21:26,396 --> 00:21:29,876 Speaker 1: will do. The like I don't. A week after the 289 00:21:29,956 --> 00:21:33,876 Speaker 1: July fourth cruise, Fred and Verna had their secret official wedding, 290 00:21:34,196 --> 00:21:38,956 Speaker 1: solidifying the financial connection between them. If she died, everything 291 00:21:38,996 --> 00:21:43,396 Speaker 1: she had and more the insurance they'd soon buy would 292 00:21:43,476 --> 00:21:47,716 Speaker 1: be his outright or in a trust that he controlled. 293 00:21:49,316 --> 00:21:52,236 Speaker 1: After looking at it, I didn't buy the sea cave theory. 294 00:21:52,836 --> 00:21:56,316 Speaker 1: Too risky, no matter how low the visibility, and it 295 00:21:56,356 --> 00:21:59,316 Speaker 1: was too different from the story Fred presented to authorities. 296 00:22:00,116 --> 00:22:06,156 Speaker 1: Fred was methodical a planner. He liked to simplify hone control. 297 00:22:07,196 --> 00:22:09,596 Speaker 1: So I asked Captain Randy to take us to the place. 298 00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:12,916 Speaker 1: Fred said the dory had capsized in the open ocean 299 00:22:13,156 --> 00:22:16,996 Speaker 1: on the north side of Bird Rock. So according to 300 00:22:17,076 --> 00:22:23,156 Speaker 1: the drawings, the boat capsized right in here, out front 301 00:22:23,156 --> 00:22:27,876 Speaker 1: of the rock. That's where. That's where, according to Fred, 302 00:22:28,276 --> 00:22:31,236 Speaker 1: Lady jumped at the birds and they all lunged and toppled, 303 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:35,396 Speaker 1: and the dory overturned. He said he could see Perseverance 304 00:22:35,596 --> 00:22:39,716 Speaker 1: anchored at Little Scorpion the entire time. That was the point, 305 00:22:39,836 --> 00:22:42,236 Speaker 1: he said, to get a picture of Doug holding Lady 306 00:22:42,236 --> 00:22:44,556 Speaker 1: in the dory with Bird Rock in the near ground 307 00:22:44,636 --> 00:22:48,956 Speaker 1: and Perseverance in the distance. But as we moved toward 308 00:22:49,036 --> 00:22:52,116 Speaker 1: the spot in front of Bird Rock, I noticed that 309 00:22:52,196 --> 00:22:56,476 Speaker 1: Captain Randy's sailboat in Little Scorpion Anchorage was slipping out 310 00:22:56,476 --> 00:23:00,196 Speaker 1: of view. The north face of Bird Rock is cupped, 311 00:23:00,436 --> 00:23:02,516 Speaker 1: so when you're close to it, the sides of the 312 00:23:02,596 --> 00:23:06,676 Speaker 1: rock block both anchorages from view, meaning you can't see 313 00:23:06,996 --> 00:23:10,756 Speaker 1: or be seen by the boats on either side. If 314 00:23:10,756 --> 00:23:14,796 Speaker 1: you're in this cove, you cannot see Scorpion Anchorage at all. 315 00:23:14,876 --> 00:23:16,916 Speaker 1: All those boats on that side wouldn't see any Lady, 316 00:23:17,796 --> 00:23:24,556 Speaker 1: where's that? If he doesn't right in here, nobody can 317 00:23:24,596 --> 00:23:27,596 Speaker 1: see him. In front of the rock, there was an 318 00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:30,796 Speaker 1: explosion of white water, a geyser that shot into the 319 00:23:30,796 --> 00:23:34,836 Speaker 1: air as the waves pounded into an underwater cavern. Oh, yes, 320 00:23:35,116 --> 00:23:38,076 Speaker 1: that's the blow hole. Go as close to that as 321 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:49,436 Speaker 1: we can. Fred said that after the cap size, he 322 00:23:49,516 --> 00:23:52,236 Speaker 1: collected Verna and Doug and swam with them to Bird 323 00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:55,236 Speaker 1: Rock with Lady on his shoulders, clawing at his head. 324 00:23:56,116 --> 00:24:00,516 Speaker 1: He described maneuvering past the blowhole with difficulty to hoist 325 00:24:00,636 --> 00:24:04,316 Speaker 1: Lady up. John stared up at the rock, the sixty 326 00:24:04,356 --> 00:24:09,836 Speaker 1: foot cliff face. The dog up on this side. That's 327 00:24:09,836 --> 00:24:13,156 Speaker 1: a dog, right, not a moungoat. This is a dog, okay, 328 00:24:13,476 --> 00:24:16,756 Speaker 1: our eagle Popey, whose legs can't be more than you know, 329 00:24:16,876 --> 00:24:21,036 Speaker 1: three inches block is all like muscles and stuff, and 330 00:24:21,676 --> 00:24:24,196 Speaker 1: it's like it's sharp. The d did get him on 331 00:24:24,196 --> 00:24:29,036 Speaker 1: the island on the side. No way, no way. We 332 00:24:29,196 --> 00:24:32,116 Speaker 1: idled in our dinghy, looking up at the sheer rock wall. 333 00:24:32,876 --> 00:24:36,316 Speaker 1: The blowhole went off again, and it all started coming 334 00:24:36,356 --> 00:24:43,876 Speaker 1: together for me like a story. Fred would have rode 335 00:24:43,916 --> 00:24:49,356 Speaker 1: them here, knocked them out, drowned them, flipped the doory 336 00:24:49,476 --> 00:24:53,316 Speaker 1: and shoved it away, swum a short distance to the rock, 337 00:24:54,116 --> 00:24:58,516 Speaker 1: and waited for rescue. Maybe he offloaded lady on his 338 00:24:58,596 --> 00:25:01,236 Speaker 1: way to the spot on that gentle ledge on the 339 00:25:01,276 --> 00:25:05,556 Speaker 1: eastern side, like the Santa Barbara Day thought making excuses 340 00:25:05,556 --> 00:25:09,156 Speaker 1: to Verna and Doug about why or maybe lady he 341 00:25:09,316 --> 00:25:11,596 Speaker 1: was still in the door until the murder, and she 342 00:25:11,636 --> 00:25:14,436 Speaker 1: made her own way over to the eastern ledge, her 343 00:25:14,516 --> 00:25:20,236 Speaker 1: survival instincts kicking in her little legs, paddling furiously. Verna, 344 00:25:20,396 --> 00:25:24,196 Speaker 1: he would have killed for the money, Doug, because he 345 00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:30,916 Speaker 1: was the witness. We went back to our boat and 346 00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:34,116 Speaker 1: got ready to head home. From the back deck, John 347 00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:38,036 Speaker 1: squinted out at bird rock. Doug's ashes had been scattered 348 00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:40,876 Speaker 1: at sea, and there was no marker for him anywhere 349 00:25:40,876 --> 00:25:46,196 Speaker 1: on land, so this was it. Bird Rock was his grave. 350 00:25:47,556 --> 00:25:48,956 Speaker 1: I'm looking at that, and I see all the rocks. 351 00:25:48,956 --> 00:25:51,836 Speaker 1: I'm like, those are all tombstones. That's all death. That's 352 00:25:51,836 --> 00:25:55,196 Speaker 1: how I look at it. I just this is a 353 00:25:55,236 --> 00:25:58,796 Speaker 1: weird I got a creepy feeling. This whole place is 354 00:25:58,836 --> 00:26:05,916 Speaker 1: not what I thought it would be. Before Christmas, in 355 00:26:05,956 --> 00:26:08,956 Speaker 1: December of nineteen eighty, John had said goodbye to Doug, 356 00:26:09,516 --> 00:26:11,756 Speaker 1: thinking he'd see him again in a few months or 357 00:26:11,756 --> 00:26:15,876 Speaker 1: whenever the railers got back from their sailing trip to Mexico. Instead, 358 00:26:16,276 --> 00:26:24,836 Speaker 1: over the holidays, Doug had died here. John looked ill 359 00:26:25,276 --> 00:26:28,396 Speaker 1: and kept turning his face away from the rock, only 360 00:26:28,436 --> 00:26:31,996 Speaker 1: to have his gaze pulled back to it. This is 361 00:26:32,036 --> 00:26:36,916 Speaker 1: like death. You just feel death. I don't. I know 362 00:26:36,916 --> 00:26:39,476 Speaker 1: it's not like that for everybody, but I don't. I'll 363 00:26:39,476 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 1: probably never ever come back here again. No way we're 364 00:26:44,116 --> 00:26:57,276 Speaker 1: worth it. I don't know. That affects me so much. 365 00:26:59,756 --> 00:27:01,956 Speaker 1: I don't know if I don't know. Back then, I 366 00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:03,556 Speaker 1: wasn't like I want to be in law enforces to 367 00:27:03,556 --> 00:27:11,636 Speaker 1: solve crimes. But more helping people that are helping people 368 00:27:11,636 --> 00:27:18,036 Speaker 1: that are getting drowned and getting killed. Just say it's 369 00:27:18,076 --> 00:27:25,476 Speaker 1: not fair. It's not fair. It's bullshit, like he didn't 370 00:27:25,556 --> 00:27:28,636 Speaker 1: he didn't kill, just that he like killed part of 371 00:27:28,636 --> 00:27:35,636 Speaker 1: our lives. We turned around and headed back across the channel, 372 00:27:36,116 --> 00:27:43,156 Speaker 1: with hundreds of dolphins leaping in our wake. I asked 373 00:27:43,236 --> 00:27:47,116 Speaker 1: John if the trip had brought him clarity, and he said, yeah, 374 00:27:47,756 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 1: he felt he knew where Doug had died. It's a 375 00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:55,796 Speaker 1: great place to kill somebody. Nobody can see you, nobody 376 00:27:55,796 --> 00:27:59,996 Speaker 1: can hear you. But where that happened, Where that that 377 00:28:00,036 --> 00:28:05,396 Speaker 1: little co is. It's like Professor Plum with the candlestick 378 00:28:05,436 --> 00:28:08,956 Speaker 1: in the conservatory. Nobody saw it, but you know what happened, 379 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:11,996 Speaker 1: and that when you look at it that way, it's scary, 380 00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:34,116 Speaker 1: Like that area is scary because it's perfect. The case 381 00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:37,836 Speaker 1: against Fred Rayler, in spite of all that scientific evidence, 382 00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:42,036 Speaker 1: was largely circumstantial if you looked at it one way. 383 00:28:42,356 --> 00:28:46,676 Speaker 1: Fred was a victim of unfathomably bad luck. That's been 384 00:28:46,716 --> 00:28:49,636 Speaker 1: the subtext of every conversation I've had with him. His 385 00:28:49,756 --> 00:28:54,556 Speaker 1: persona is built around this idea of steadfast, stoic perseverance 386 00:28:54,676 --> 00:28:58,476 Speaker 1: in the face of hardship. Looked at another way, the 387 00:28:58,516 --> 00:29:03,796 Speaker 1: authority's way. Fred's a devious and malicious killer. From that 388 00:29:03,836 --> 00:29:06,516 Speaker 1: point of view, it's no coincidence that people close to 389 00:29:06,596 --> 00:29:11,356 Speaker 1: him kept drowning. He was drowning. But that's the thing 390 00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:15,876 Speaker 1: about circumstantial evidence. It doesn't look the same to everyone. 391 00:29:20,596 --> 00:29:23,196 Speaker 1: The first time I went up into the hayloft in Colorado, 392 00:29:23,516 --> 00:29:27,316 Speaker 1: I saw something really strange. It was a kiddie pool 393 00:29:27,476 --> 00:29:30,996 Speaker 1: with a plastic skeleton in it and an oar and 394 00:29:31,076 --> 00:29:35,276 Speaker 1: a headless dummy dressed in boy's clothing and not attached, 395 00:29:35,716 --> 00:29:40,596 Speaker 1: a painted pumpkinhead, a skeleton with an oar, A dummy 396 00:29:40,636 --> 00:29:44,676 Speaker 1: with no head. Law enforcement thought Fred had stunned Verna 397 00:29:44,716 --> 00:29:47,756 Speaker 1: with the door's oar. A dug sized dummy and a 398 00:29:47,836 --> 00:29:50,236 Speaker 1: dummy head had been used in the trial and helped 399 00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:55,036 Speaker 1: to convict Fred. Clearly, this was someone's morbid idea of 400 00:29:55,076 --> 00:29:58,476 Speaker 1: a joke. Wait, Heidi, can you come over here and 401 00:29:58,596 --> 00:30:04,876 Speaker 1: tell us about this? So what is this situation here? 402 00:30:04,916 --> 00:30:07,356 Speaker 1: At first, she had no idea what I was talking about. 403 00:30:07,956 --> 00:30:12,076 Speaker 1: She couldn't see it. It was a random collection of stuff, disconnected, 404 00:30:12,556 --> 00:30:17,676 Speaker 1: not meaningful, unrelated, you're looking at a kiddie pool with 405 00:30:18,676 --> 00:30:22,276 Speaker 1: there's a skeleton in it, and then there's also it 406 00:30:22,316 --> 00:30:27,156 Speaker 1: looks like a scarecrow, and then there's paddles. The paddles 407 00:30:27,196 --> 00:30:29,756 Speaker 1: are for a stepboard that's not up here right now, 408 00:30:30,556 --> 00:30:33,916 Speaker 1: and the scarecrow my daughter's built for Halloween. We put 409 00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:37,276 Speaker 1: it down at the then, like an optical illusion where 410 00:30:37,276 --> 00:30:39,716 Speaker 1: a hidden picture emerges only after you stare at it 411 00:30:39,796 --> 00:30:43,836 Speaker 1: a while. She saw what I saw, but it does 412 00:30:43,916 --> 00:30:47,836 Speaker 1: now that I'm looking at it. It's bizarre. Yeah. No, 413 00:30:48,036 --> 00:30:54,036 Speaker 1: it's just a pile of junk with a few skeletonstone 414 00:30:54,076 --> 00:31:00,476 Speaker 1: in Yeah. I considered whether her explanation was reasonable, that 415 00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:06,156 Speaker 1: these things would have ended up together completely unintentionally. No way. 416 00:31:06,996 --> 00:31:09,956 Speaker 1: She had a plausible explanation for everything, but it didn't 417 00:31:09,996 --> 00:31:13,356 Speaker 1: pass a gut check according to the law. Though I 418 00:31:13,396 --> 00:31:15,676 Speaker 1: would have to give Heidi the benefit of the doubt. 419 00:31:16,356 --> 00:31:21,116 Speaker 1: It was just an accident. The kittie pool moment illustrated 420 00:31:21,156 --> 00:31:25,076 Speaker 1: something else for me too, how much Fred's daughters need 421 00:31:25,196 --> 00:31:28,636 Speaker 1: him to be innocent, and how blinding that need is. 422 00:31:31,076 --> 00:31:34,396 Speaker 1: Kim's father, Bill, died after falling from a rooftop in 423 00:31:34,476 --> 00:31:38,516 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five. Her mother died with her little brother 424 00:31:38,756 --> 00:31:43,756 Speaker 1: at Bird Rock in nineteen eighty one. Heidi and Kirsten's mother, Jean, 425 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:47,476 Speaker 1: drowned in the family pool in Malibu in nineteen seventy six. 426 00:31:49,756 --> 00:31:54,796 Speaker 1: Fred is all they have. Sometimes, when you love and 427 00:31:54,956 --> 00:31:58,476 Speaker 1: need someone that badly, you can't see what's right before 428 00:31:58,476 --> 00:32:03,276 Speaker 1: your eyes. And if they want to keep him, they 429 00:32:03,396 --> 00:32:16,156 Speaker 1: must believe him. A few years ago, Kirsten, the youngest 430 00:32:16,196 --> 00:32:21,036 Speaker 1: of the sisters, Fred's favorite prime kid, spearheaded a petition 431 00:32:21,116 --> 00:32:24,276 Speaker 1: to ask Jerry Brown, the governor of California at the time, 432 00:32:24,476 --> 00:32:28,556 Speaker 1: to grant her father clemency. The Governor's office sent someone 433 00:32:28,596 --> 00:32:32,156 Speaker 1: to interview Fred in prison, and then the Santa Barbaradier's 434 00:32:32,196 --> 00:32:36,156 Speaker 1: office began reaching out to victims, which meant they called Kim, 435 00:32:36,916 --> 00:32:42,076 Speaker 1: Verna's daughter, Doug's older sister. Of the three sisters, Kim 436 00:32:42,236 --> 00:32:45,476 Speaker 1: is the most secretive. Almost no one in her life 437 00:32:45,596 --> 00:32:49,196 Speaker 1: knows the story of her childhood. The whole time we 438 00:32:49,196 --> 00:32:52,436 Speaker 1: were in the hayloft, she rarely volunteered anything other than 439 00:32:52,556 --> 00:32:58,116 Speaker 1: quiet agreement with her sisters. Now she spoke up when 440 00:32:58,156 --> 00:33:01,116 Speaker 1: that happened, I mean, I was surprised by it, but 441 00:33:01,156 --> 00:33:04,036 Speaker 1: then also like you know, her and offended that they 442 00:33:04,076 --> 00:33:07,116 Speaker 1: even did that. You know, I got his voice message 443 00:33:07,116 --> 00:33:08,836 Speaker 1: and then called him back the next day and then 444 00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:13,836 Speaker 1: flat out told him that I support my dad's clemency 445 00:33:13,956 --> 00:33:15,836 Speaker 1: and all this procedure and stuff like that, and then 446 00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:22,676 Speaker 1: didn't hear from their office again. But ah, this is Kirsten. 447 00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:26,996 Speaker 1: But then, I mean, we doubled down and sent another, 448 00:33:27,356 --> 00:33:31,316 Speaker 1: you know, batch of probably twenty letters of everyone saying like, yeah, 449 00:33:31,356 --> 00:33:34,796 Speaker 1: you may consider us the victim's family, but we love 450 00:33:34,796 --> 00:33:38,316 Speaker 1: and support him to this day. We you know, want 451 00:33:38,356 --> 00:33:41,876 Speaker 1: you to release him. I mean, how many times can 452 00:33:42,036 --> 00:33:46,476 Speaker 1: the victim's family say that? And it doesn't matter. I mean, 453 00:33:46,556 --> 00:33:52,236 Speaker 1: he's seventy eight years old with health problems. He's not 454 00:33:52,516 --> 00:33:55,116 Speaker 1: a risk. You know, he's not a risk to anybody. 455 00:33:56,436 --> 00:34:00,756 Speaker 1: If he ever was, he's not. Now they're accusing him 456 00:34:00,756 --> 00:34:03,836 Speaker 1: of killing family members and we're his family, so yeah, 457 00:34:03,996 --> 00:34:14,876 Speaker 1: we'll take the risk of him possibly killing us. Fred 458 00:34:14,996 --> 00:34:19,276 Speaker 1: was the perfect father who designed the perfect crime murder 459 00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:24,716 Speaker 1: with no witnesses that left no marks once authorities believed 460 00:34:24,756 --> 00:34:28,076 Speaker 1: he got away with it the second time he got caught. 461 00:34:29,796 --> 00:34:33,196 Speaker 1: On the surface, his family was perfect, but the real 462 00:34:33,236 --> 00:34:36,796 Speaker 1: story was what happened below. The surface where he held 463 00:34:36,836 --> 00:34:41,316 Speaker 1: them under and no one saw. I don't think the 464 00:34:41,396 --> 00:34:45,556 Speaker 1: trial or even the investigation was necessarily fair, but I 465 00:34:45,636 --> 00:34:48,316 Speaker 1: do think the jury sent a guilty man to prison. 466 00:34:50,436 --> 00:34:54,516 Speaker 1: But Fred, he's still keeping up appearances. In the tapes 467 00:34:54,596 --> 00:34:57,156 Speaker 1: from forty years ago. He sounds kind of numb, but 468 00:34:57,276 --> 00:35:01,596 Speaker 1: also irritated, as if he's explaining things through gritted teeth 469 00:35:01,756 --> 00:35:09,756 Speaker 1: to a dimwitted kid. In our conversations, he's mister Malibu again, genial, affable, 470 00:35:10,196 --> 00:35:13,516 Speaker 1: chuckling like a shopping mall Santa Claus, who you know, 471 00:35:13,676 --> 00:35:16,956 Speaker 1: is just an out of work actor in a polyester suit. 472 00:35:18,676 --> 00:35:26,996 Speaker 1: Good morning, How are you? I feel contained? So for 473 00:35:27,036 --> 00:35:34,236 Speaker 1: some reason contained, Yeah, that's a joke. This conversation was 474 00:35:34,276 --> 00:35:37,036 Speaker 1: just a couple of weeks ago. On December eighth, it 475 00:35:37,076 --> 00:35:40,516 Speaker 1: was our twenty fifth phone call. Fred said he was 476 00:35:40,596 --> 00:35:43,876 Speaker 1: still working on his case. His appeal back in nineteen 477 00:35:43,916 --> 00:35:47,716 Speaker 1: eighty five hadn't worked because even though all three judges 478 00:35:47,756 --> 00:35:51,236 Speaker 1: felt that Duane MOS's testimony about the experiments with the 479 00:35:51,316 --> 00:35:54,356 Speaker 1: dummy and the dory should not have been allowed, they 480 00:35:54,356 --> 00:35:57,356 Speaker 1: didn't agree on how much it had influenced the jury's decision. 481 00:35:58,036 --> 00:36:01,156 Speaker 1: Two of the judges said that even without Moses's testimony, 482 00:36:01,436 --> 00:36:03,716 Speaker 1: the outcome of the trial would have been the same. 483 00:36:04,796 --> 00:36:07,996 Speaker 1: And then the third one wrote a shepherd dissenting opinion 484 00:36:08,436 --> 00:36:11,316 Speaker 1: where he went into the whole thing and said, no, 485 00:36:11,556 --> 00:36:15,276 Speaker 1: this is primarily the reason we've got this gut. In 486 00:36:15,356 --> 00:36:19,556 Speaker 1: recent years, California law has changed to reflect growing skepticism 487 00:36:19,596 --> 00:36:23,076 Speaker 1: about forensic science, which can be so persuasive to juries 488 00:36:23,516 --> 00:36:28,236 Speaker 1: but is also often total bunk. Now there's an appetite 489 00:36:28,276 --> 00:36:30,876 Speaker 1: to take another look at cases where junk science may 490 00:36:30,876 --> 00:36:34,556 Speaker 1: have played a role in conviction. So Fred's forging ahead, 491 00:36:34,916 --> 00:36:41,356 Speaker 1: serving as his own lawyer. So I've been basically pressing 492 00:36:41,476 --> 00:36:45,276 Speaker 1: that issue along with some others, all the way through 493 00:36:45,316 --> 00:36:49,916 Speaker 1: the court system. So I started out with the Superior 494 00:36:49,956 --> 00:36:53,116 Speaker 1: Court in Santa Barbara and then went all the way 495 00:36:53,156 --> 00:36:57,596 Speaker 1: up to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court of California, 496 00:36:58,076 --> 00:37:02,636 Speaker 1: and that one's just done this year. I had a 497 00:37:02,676 --> 00:37:04,916 Speaker 1: feeling this would be the last time I'd talked to Fred, 498 00:37:05,556 --> 00:37:08,356 Speaker 1: and I wanted to understand something that had been bothering 499 00:37:08,356 --> 00:37:12,036 Speaker 1: me all along. That his love for his daughters seems 500 00:37:12,356 --> 00:37:15,756 Speaker 1: so real. It's the one part of his facade I 501 00:37:15,796 --> 00:37:19,756 Speaker 1: just can't see through. I don't think it is a facade. 502 00:37:20,676 --> 00:37:22,956 Speaker 1: So I asked him about his relationship with them and 503 00:37:23,076 --> 00:37:28,636 Speaker 1: what they're unfaltering support has meant to him. Oh, it 504 00:37:28,716 --> 00:37:37,556 Speaker 1: means absolutely everything. I'm fortunate that they're astute enough and 505 00:37:37,676 --> 00:37:44,716 Speaker 1: old enough now to really comprehend both situations and to 506 00:37:44,956 --> 00:37:51,916 Speaker 1: understand the legal process. And basically they're my lifeline at 507 00:37:51,916 --> 00:37:55,676 Speaker 1: the moment, because if I, if I didn't have my daughters, 508 00:37:55,796 --> 00:38:00,116 Speaker 1: I'd be in a lot of trouble. What would happen 509 00:38:00,876 --> 00:38:06,716 Speaker 1: if one of them questioned either of those stories that 510 00:38:06,756 --> 00:38:13,276 Speaker 1: you've told them? Sure, well, I would try my most 511 00:38:13,356 --> 00:38:18,476 Speaker 1: to figure out why they had changed their mind and 512 00:38:18,876 --> 00:38:22,156 Speaker 1: to do everything that I could to, you know, help 513 00:38:22,196 --> 00:38:28,836 Speaker 1: them understand it even better. It's one of those It's 514 00:38:28,836 --> 00:38:32,276 Speaker 1: one of those things that, knowing the three women, it 515 00:38:32,316 --> 00:38:36,676 Speaker 1: would be hard for me to grasp, it would be 516 00:38:36,716 --> 00:38:41,356 Speaker 1: hard for you to grasp why they might have questions. 517 00:38:41,476 --> 00:38:45,596 Speaker 1: Oh exactly. In other words, there's a lot of things 518 00:38:45,636 --> 00:38:51,036 Speaker 1: that none of us know, and that'll always be the case. 519 00:38:51,396 --> 00:38:55,716 Speaker 1: But what they do know basically has led them to 520 00:38:55,716 --> 00:38:58,516 Speaker 1: stay with me and be with me, you know, the 521 00:38:58,676 --> 00:39:02,956 Speaker 1: entire time, and bring husbands up and bring babies up, 522 00:39:02,996 --> 00:39:07,196 Speaker 1: and you know, visit me at all different funny places. 523 00:39:07,836 --> 00:39:11,556 Speaker 1: They'll old folsome. We actually had family visits in the hospital, 524 00:39:12,876 --> 00:39:17,316 Speaker 1: and so I had these three little girls basically visiting 525 00:39:17,356 --> 00:39:21,676 Speaker 1: me for a weekend in prison, which is, you know, 526 00:39:21,836 --> 00:39:25,316 Speaker 1: rather astounding that as they had the fortitude to be 527 00:39:25,396 --> 00:39:30,996 Speaker 1: able to face that and basically for us to have 528 00:39:30,996 --> 00:39:37,156 Speaker 1: a pretty good Do you think your identity remaining? Is 529 00:39:37,196 --> 00:39:43,916 Speaker 1: your identity at root that you are a good father? Yeah? 530 00:39:43,956 --> 00:39:46,476 Speaker 1: And the thing that we say over and over is 531 00:39:46,516 --> 00:39:50,596 Speaker 1: that I'm probably better as a father in here than 532 00:39:50,636 --> 00:39:53,596 Speaker 1: I would have been out there. Being in here, I 533 00:39:53,756 --> 00:39:57,756 Speaker 1: followed them at every step of their lives and listened 534 00:39:57,796 --> 00:40:02,196 Speaker 1: and shared letters, and you know, it's I've got them 535 00:40:02,236 --> 00:40:05,996 Speaker 1: to know them and them to know me. So it's 536 00:40:05,996 --> 00:40:10,476 Speaker 1: one of those little twists of irony. Do you think 537 00:40:10,516 --> 00:40:16,476 Speaker 1: you'll get out? I do yes, because I know that 538 00:40:16,636 --> 00:40:20,836 Speaker 1: what they did wasn't fair and it violated the rule 539 00:40:20,876 --> 00:40:27,076 Speaker 1: of law. And at some point the line had gone dead. 540 00:40:42,116 --> 00:40:45,676 Speaker 1: I talked to Fred twenty five times for a total 541 00:40:45,756 --> 00:40:48,916 Speaker 1: of six hours, forty five minutes and forty seven seconds. 542 00:40:50,876 --> 00:40:54,276 Speaker 1: He told me about Jean, that they were working things out. 543 00:40:55,516 --> 00:40:58,316 Speaker 1: He told me about Verna, that she was the love 544 00:40:58,356 --> 00:41:02,156 Speaker 1: of his life. He told me about their life in Malibu, 545 00:41:03,396 --> 00:41:09,716 Speaker 1: that it was perfect, wholesome, sweet, a dream. But it 546 00:41:09,836 --> 00:41:13,916 Speaker 1: was right there when Fred was talking about his daughters 547 00:41:14,156 --> 00:41:18,756 Speaker 1: and the kind of father he's been, how they're his lifeline. 548 00:41:20,196 --> 00:41:26,676 Speaker 1: That was the one moment, maybe the only moment, when 549 00:41:26,756 --> 00:42:06,076 Speaker 1: I knew Fred was telling the truth. Lost Hills is reported, 550 00:42:06,076 --> 00:42:09,636 Speaker 1: written and hosted by me Dana Goodyear. The editor is 551 00:42:09,676 --> 00:42:13,956 Speaker 1: Ben Adair. Our senior producer is Hayley Fox, who contributed 552 00:42:14,036 --> 00:42:19,156 Speaker 1: a ton of additional reporting. Producers are Nicole McNulty, Cameron Kell, 553 00:42:19,316 --> 00:42:23,556 Speaker 1: and Savannah Wright. Mika Hauser is our fact checker. Our 554 00:42:23,596 --> 00:42:28,076 Speaker 1: composer and sound designer is Dan Leone. Our mix engineers 555 00:42:28,076 --> 00:42:32,316 Speaker 1: are David Hermann and Michael Raphael. Our cover art is 556 00:42:32,356 --> 00:42:36,756 Speaker 1: called for a Kid, and It's by Francesca Gabiani. Bena 557 00:42:36,836 --> 00:42:40,796 Speaker 1: Dare and I are the creators and executive producers. Executive 558 00:42:40,836 --> 00:42:44,636 Speaker 1: producers for Pushkin Industries are Jacob Weisberg, The Tal Mullad 559 00:42:44,796 --> 00:42:49,836 Speaker 1: and Jacob Smith. Thanks also to the Pushkin team Mia Lobell, 560 00:42:50,276 --> 00:42:55,316 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, John Schnars, Carly mcgliori, Amy Gaines, Maggie Taylor, 561 00:42:55,476 --> 00:43:00,836 Speaker 1: Nicole Morano, Eric Sandler, Mary Beth Smith, Brant Haynes, Jake Gorsky, 562 00:43:01,076 --> 00:43:08,596 Speaker 1: Sean Carney, Royston Bezerv, Maya Koneg, and Daniella Lacan. Lost 563 00:43:08,676 --> 00:43:12,676 Speaker 1: Hills the production of Western Sound and Pushkin Industries. You 564 00:43:12,716 --> 00:43:16,316 Speaker 1: can sign up for Western Sounds newsletter at Western Dashsound 565 00:43:16,516 --> 00:43:23,436 Speaker 1: dot com. Pushkin's newsletter is at Pushkin dot fm. Follow 566 00:43:23,516 --> 00:43:26,876 Speaker 1: at Lost Hills Pod on social media, and please remember 567 00:43:26,916 --> 00:43:29,396 Speaker 1: to rate and review the show in your podcast app. 568 00:43:29,876 --> 00:43:33,396 Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, 569 00:43:33,516 --> 00:43:36,516 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts,