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Speaker 1: Booking a trillions.

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Speaker 2: I'm Joe Webber and I'm Eric Altunas.

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Speaker 1: Eric, there's a country that is actually like big in

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Speaker 1: ETFs and we actually don't really talk about it enough,

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Speaker 1: but you're heading to Asia on a trip, and then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden we started talking about Japan and

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, you know what, we should actually

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Speaker 1: do a Japan episode. And to do that, we're going

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Speaker 1: to have Jeremy Schwartz, who's the global Chief investment Officer

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Speaker 1: at Wisdom Tree joining us. What are we going to

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Speaker 1: talk to him about?

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Speaker 3: Eric?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, beyond those reasons, there's also a new prime

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Speaker 2: minister there who, by all accounts is very like Abbe

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Speaker 2: and Abe Nomis was a whole thing from about ten

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Speaker 2: years ago where this guy just cut He did a

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Speaker 2: lot of you know, currency manipulation in order to exports

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Speaker 2: and that created what was called the fee wars for

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Speaker 2: a couple of years there. And DXJ, which is the

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Speaker 2: Wisdom Tree Japan hedged DTF was like a total rock star.

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Speaker 2: In fact, remember the trivia episode we did. One of

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Speaker 2: the trivia questions was what was the LASTDTF that wasn't

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Speaker 2: Vanguard or I shares to win the annual flow crown

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Speaker 2: and the answer is DXJ. In twenty thirteen, it took

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Speaker 2: a nine billion, but then it started to underperform the

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Speaker 2: non hedged, a lot of people left. It was like

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Speaker 2: a rise and then a fall. Then it actually had

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Speaker 2: a good run again, but people didn't really come back

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Speaker 2: like they did. It was like it didn't get a

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Speaker 2: second bite at the apple, which we've seen on occasion.

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Speaker 2: But with this leader in here, maybe we'll get a

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Speaker 2: third bite at the apple. Maybe this time it will work.

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Speaker 2: I can already see some of the assets growing in it,

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Speaker 2: but it's still, you know, basically a shell of what

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Speaker 2: it was ten years ago. But the design of DXJ

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Speaker 2: should be perfectly fit for this prime minister. Of what

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Speaker 2: I'm reading is true.

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Speaker 1: That prime minister is Sanai Takeishi, the first female prime

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Speaker 1: minister in Japan's history. Her nickname is a throwback to

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Speaker 1: Margaret Thatcher, the Iron Lady. And joining us is Jeremy

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Speaker 1: Schwartz of Whitstry this time on trillions is Japan back. Jeremy,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Trillians.

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Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me.

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Speaker 3: One of my favorite topics to talk about with Eric

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Speaker 3: from first episode of ETFIQ to back.

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Speaker 4: Japan might be coming back.

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Speaker 1: Oh so, Jeremy, we did a check.

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Speaker 4: You were on in April of twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: It's been a second so excited to have you back.

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Speaker 1: So let's hear you answer the question, is Japan back?

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess you're gonna say the affirmative.

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Speaker 3: Well, the thing is that Japan never left. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the thing is people might have traded it wrong. But

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Speaker 3: you know, if I look at the performance of DXJ

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Speaker 3: compared to the S and P five hundred since twenty twelve,

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Speaker 3: how many international funds can you say have beaten the

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Speaker 3: S ANDB five hundred since twenty twelve. EFA by the way,

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Speaker 3: MSCI EFA, the broader national benchmark that everybody buys for

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Speaker 3: international has returned like seven percent a year. The S

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Speaker 3: and P has done fifteen percent a year, okay, and

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Speaker 3: so seven versus fifteen for thirteen years, by the way,

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Speaker 3: compounds to like one hundred and fifty percent versus five

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Speaker 3: hundred percent. So this is how much international has beaten.

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Speaker 3: What has beaten the S and P since that time.

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Speaker 4: D x JET.

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Speaker 3: So it's like that now there's a period where it

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Speaker 3: wasn't but as of today. That's you know, and we're

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Speaker 3: recording early October. That is true, and so there's been

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, this comes back to a fundamental

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Speaker 3: problem through international I mean, Eric, this is something I've

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Speaker 3: talked about for a long time.

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Speaker 4: This is somewhat a.

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Speaker 3: Branding problem, but you know, it also just a sequencing

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Speaker 3: problem that people think hedging is this exotic thing, when

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Speaker 3: like betting on currencies is actually a much more interesting,

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Speaker 3: more exotic thing. Like why are you going to go

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Speaker 3: long the en? You know, if you had to say default,

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Speaker 3: should it be long the en or should just be

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Speaker 3: neutral the en? Most people would have been neutral, but

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Speaker 3: they default to being long v en all the time.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of a crazy thing. But I'd say DXJA

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Speaker 3: never left, but people left and they made a mistake.

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Speaker 1: So what's interesting about that timeline that you lay out

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Speaker 1: is just how much has actually changed in Japan. You know,

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Speaker 1: this huge monetary policy experiment. It was they had like

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Speaker 1: negative interest rates forever year and change ago. They left

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Speaker 1: that and like re entered sort of the normalcy. Now

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Speaker 1: there's inflation and even Japanese are starting to have to

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Speaker 1: invest differently because they can't just keep cash under the

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Speaker 1: Mattress anymore. So is this is dxj's success. Is it

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Speaker 1: really like the the international investment opportunity or is there

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Speaker 1: a domestic story there or too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, people do ask that question about if it's also

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Speaker 3: one of the oldest populations of declining populations. So like

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Speaker 3: when when we talk about it, is it really about

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Speaker 3: the local Japan story or just their global you know,

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Speaker 3: sort of footprint. I have said that it's not about

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Speaker 3: just the local economy, that it's Japan is generally like

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Speaker 3: a global growth play that it sort of exports all

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Speaker 3: around the world. They have some of the you know,

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Speaker 3: they're they're the infrastructure from their their semiconductors can find

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Speaker 3: their way. Soft Bank is like an AI play. Tokyo

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Speaker 3: Electron feeds into a lot of the other global AI stories,

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Speaker 3: you know, so they are components. They don't have like

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Speaker 3: a they'd say the mag seven like we have these

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Speaker 3: tech leaders, but they have things that support a lot

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Speaker 3: of that, you know, I'd say. The other person who's

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Speaker 3: brought the most interest to Japan has been Buffet. So

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Speaker 3: like you think about world's premier best value investers. Five

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Speaker 3: years ago, I was telling people follow Buffet in Japan

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Speaker 3: I've probably done six or seven different pieces follow Buffet

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Speaker 3: into Japan, and in fact, they actually then created a fund.

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Speaker 4: To buy half the stocks.

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Speaker 3: You know, half of its weight basically is in the

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Speaker 3: Buffet stocks, so OP j OPBJ Japan Opportunities, which we

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Speaker 3: took a smaller fund to do that. We had a

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Speaker 3: small cap fund. That's the more local that was the

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Speaker 3: more local story. I just said, you know, people don't

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Speaker 3: care much enough about the small caps. As much as

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Speaker 3: I cared, people didn't care.

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Speaker 4: But the Japan.

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Speaker 3: Opportunity story with Buffet tagging along actually is is just

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Speaker 3: as interesting today.

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Speaker 2: Actually, when we look at the year today returns, it's

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Speaker 2: pretty close. So the non hedged is up eighteen percent,

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Speaker 2: d XJ is up about the same, and the SMP's

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Speaker 2: up thirteen percent. Now, the dollar has been weakening, and

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Speaker 2: usually if the dollar's weakening, it's not good for currency

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Speaker 2: hedged international ATFS, right, you want the dollar strengthening and

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Speaker 2: Japan's currency getting weaker.

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Speaker 5: That's the perfect trade for d XJ.

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Speaker 2: Is this prime minister going to do what Abe did

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Speaker 2: and like really purposely make the current see worthless in

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Speaker 2: order to jack up exports, and how much is left

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Speaker 2: in that trade because when I just went back and

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Speaker 2: looked at five year, d XJ is destroying the non hedged.

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Speaker 2: So I guess that would be my two questions as

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Speaker 2: somebody thinking about going in now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a very tricky question.

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Speaker 3: These cursies can be very unpredictable, which goes back to

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Speaker 3: like do you really want to bet on the end

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Speaker 3: going up? You know, which it's a it's a high

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Speaker 3: bar to say, like do I really want to bet

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Speaker 3: on the end?

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Speaker 4: You know what d XJA you're basically getting today.

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Speaker 3: You're getting called three and a half to four percent

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Speaker 3: on top of the local market or this is an

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Speaker 3: important distinction because when you hedge, you get the interest

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Speaker 3: rate differentials on top of the local market return.

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Speaker 4: Like you hear about the end carry trade. You hear

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Speaker 4: about these carry trades.

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Speaker 3: When you're hedging, you're paid the interest rate differentials between

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Speaker 3: the local you know, between the US and local market. So, yes,

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Speaker 3: the Feds bring rates down, Japan's been hiking a little

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Speaker 3: bit for a little while. We're getting five to six

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Speaker 3: percent carry on top of the local market return, which

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Speaker 3: is again is how much the end has to go

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Speaker 3: up to break even with the hedge, right, so they're

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Speaker 3: starting out four percent behind the eight ball is how

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Speaker 3: much the unheedged has to go up now the end

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Speaker 3: had the dollar had beginning week, A lot of people

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Speaker 3: are think the dollar had peeked out and things go.

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Speaker 3: So it is not just in Japan's control. I mean,

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Speaker 3: for sure, when AB came in, you had eighty en

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Speaker 3: to the dollar. Today we're over one fifty end to

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Speaker 3: the dollar. So it's definitely a very different starting point.

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Speaker 3: It was a very overly strong end when ABI came in.

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Speaker 3: You wouldn't say it's an overly strong end today. But

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Speaker 3: it sort of comes back to the policies, like if

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Speaker 3: she's trying to get them to delay raising rates, if

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Speaker 3: they do a lot more physical spending. They've got some

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Speaker 3: the highest debts to GDP. You know, there's just the questions.

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Speaker 3: It's like what you know, Now, she might be pro

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Speaker 3: growth and that might be good for the currency, but

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Speaker 3: it's it's sort of an it's it's unpredictable, so it's like,

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Speaker 3: is that your thesis?

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Speaker 4: The thesis is is she's.

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Speaker 3: Good for the equities, she might not be good for

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Speaker 3: the currency, or at least it adds extra noise and

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Speaker 3: extra volatility when you know, you could buy the stocks

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Speaker 3: and get paid over three percent today to hedge it.

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Speaker 5: One thing you mentioned was the debt to GDP.

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Speaker 2: As Joel knows, I've been deep in this bitcoin book,

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Speaker 2: and one of the things that you have to cover

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Speaker 2: when you're covering this is deficit debt inflation. And I

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Speaker 2: think the US is like one thirty percent. I have

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Speaker 2: to double check out, but I believe Japan's double two

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty percent. They're basically like the highest in

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Speaker 2: the world for a big country. That seems crazy to me,

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Speaker 2: But as some people pointed out, that doesn't necessarily mean

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Speaker 2: you're going to get a lot of inflation. And Japan

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Speaker 2: is also you know, there's a famous like kind of

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Speaker 2: meme on social media where somebody starts talking about US

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Speaker 2: stocks and somebody comes in, now do Japan, And it's

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Speaker 2: usually looking at like the Lost Decade of Japan, like,

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Speaker 2: which was a couple decades ago, about how a stock

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Speaker 2: market can just do nothing.

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Speaker 5: So I guess with I don't know as.

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Speaker 2: An investor, and I'm thinking, like, hey, this is a

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Speaker 2: debt ridden country. I don't hear a lot of things

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Speaker 2: about mag seven type stocks there. What am I really

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Speaker 2: buying here is it just to trade on monetary policy?

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Speaker 2: And how much more monetary policy can be dubbish or

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Speaker 2: loose given they're already at that debt to GDP level.

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Speaker 3: My friends at all Star Charts j C, PERETZTI, Strasa

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Speaker 3: do these like thirty year breakout charts on Japan, Like,

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Speaker 3: you know, like they has been building this base for

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Speaker 3: thirty years and you just got like the Nieka breakout

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Speaker 3: of forty eight thousand, and it's you know, nineteen eighty

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Speaker 3: nine was the peak. It's just catching up to the

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty nine peak.

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Speaker 4: But it was like one of the.

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Speaker 3: Greatest bubbles of all time. Like international stocks were sixty

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Speaker 3: percent Japan in nineteen eighty nine. It was one of

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Speaker 3: the most expensive markets. You thought the tech bubble in

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Speaker 3: two thousand was expensive, more of Japan was more expensive

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Speaker 3: than tech bubble of two thousand, Right, That's how big

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Speaker 3: it was. Now it's the inverse today. If I look

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Speaker 3: at that, you know, I've got two different Japan foots.

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Speaker 3: But let's just stay with di XJA the flagship fourteen

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Speaker 3: and a half pe when the S and P's twenty

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Speaker 3: three pe. Okay, so SMP selling at a four to

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Speaker 3: five percent earning sield. We've got a two and a

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Speaker 3: half percent equity premium. Let's call it, you know, like

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Speaker 3: we look at the earning zield versus a tipshield, so

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Speaker 3: you know'll take you over forty years to w your

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Speaker 3: money in bonds today in perching power terms, under two percent,

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Speaker 3: tip shield stocks might take you fourteen to fifteen years.

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Speaker 3: In the US at a five percent earnings field, Japan

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Speaker 3: at a fourteen pe is like an eight seven to

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Speaker 3: eight percent earning yield. It's more like a eight to

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Speaker 3: nine year doubling of your perching power.

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Speaker 4: It's a much.

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Speaker 3: Better value than is like the call it the inverse bubble,

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Speaker 3: Like people just have lack of apathy. You know, there's

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Speaker 3: not any interest. International has been out of favor for

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Speaker 3: this fifteen twenty years at the US Max seven have

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Speaker 3: been in favor, and so nobody cares, and so the

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Speaker 3: valuations support that. The Japan Opportunities Fund, which has all

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Speaker 3: those buffet stocks, is a twelve and a half pe

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Speaker 3: eight percent earn ex zield, very high quality stocks, doing

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Speaker 3: a ton of buybacks, growing the dividends. I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: such a good value story.

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Speaker 4: In my opinion.

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Speaker 3: And if you get any positive catalyst that taik these

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Speaker 3: takaichi trades. If she is, you know, there's there's questions

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Speaker 3: on how effective she's going to be. She's got to

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Speaker 3: get her coalition together. But if she is productive in

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Speaker 3: lowering tax, if you're talking about doing a ten percent consumption,

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Speaker 3: like bringing a flatter tax to ten percent to try

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Speaker 3: to restimulate demand, that could be a very very big deal.

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Speaker 3: And it's a cheap market. So you know, I obviously

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Speaker 3: I like the market.

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Speaker 1: How big are these challenges that that she faces, just

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Speaker 1: to kind of lay out the landscape tough.

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Speaker 3: Man, I mean, it's a tough set of politics. She's

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Speaker 3: got to figure out who's going to to go with her,

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Speaker 3: how she brings it. They do have these inflation problemts,

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Speaker 3: but people are somewhat Eric's when you talk about the

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Speaker 3: currency before versus abe. You know, the end was way

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Speaker 3: too strong before. Now people are worried that their yen

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Speaker 3: aren't going as far and there's inflation, and so the

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Speaker 3: week end makes it a hamster. One of our former

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Speaker 3: strategies said she needs to go for.

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Speaker 4: A strong end policy.

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Speaker 3: So there's there's questions, but that is one of the

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Speaker 3: things she's got to confront. But she's definitely being trying

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Speaker 3: to bring a pro growth mindset the battle. Like I

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Speaker 3: call it, Eric, we launched an Asia Defense fund, and

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Speaker 3: Eric was giving me a hard time in the name

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Speaker 3: of like, well is it why you know? Is there

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Speaker 3: China in that Asia Defense fun? And I said, well, no, no,

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Speaker 3: this is with the battle for China and.

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Speaker 2: Joel I told him they need to run with that

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Speaker 2: and call it.

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Speaker 5: I forget the name.

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Speaker 2: We came out with defending ourselves from China, Asia Defense

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Speaker 2: etf versus.

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Speaker 5: Just like Asia Defense.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, you should own the fact that it's a

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Speaker 2: specific situation there.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if Jeremy wants to comment on that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it is the battle with China fun in

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Speaker 3: some ways. I mean we called it Asia Defense. I

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Speaker 3: thought I was implied that it was for the battle

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Speaker 3: for China. Yes, I understand his point, like is it

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Speaker 3: with China or for the battle? But that is very

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Speaker 3: topical too. In ta Kaichi, one of the ta Kayuchi trades,

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Speaker 3: I wrote a piece that the ta Kaichi trades, and

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Speaker 3: one of the trades is a defense positioning like she

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Speaker 3: is very strong against China and she thinks they if

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Speaker 3: there were to be a conflict with Taiwan. She wants

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Speaker 3: to defend Taiwan and she wants to increase spending, and

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Speaker 3: so she you know, now, if you think back to

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Speaker 3: the US politics and geopolitics, there is you know, Trump

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Speaker 3: is negotiating hard with China. Maybe by the time people

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Speaker 3: hearing this, they negotiate some grand bargain, but it's it's hot,

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Speaker 3: you know, the China US has been one of the

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Speaker 3: big hot topics this year. Abe was one of Trump's

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Speaker 3: close allies, and then you had sort of a fledgling

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Speaker 3: of prime miships that weren't you know, doing as well

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Speaker 3: with Trump. The idea was Takaichi might be a better

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Speaker 3: negotiator with Trump on some of these issues, more friendly

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Speaker 3: with Trump because she is kind of viewed as this

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Speaker 3: abbe two point zero in some ways. But the defense

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Speaker 3: story is one of the big stories, and so I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, the European defense was one of the hot

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Speaker 3: ETFs this year. Like we somehow in our European team

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Speaker 3: launched a European Defense Fund like the week Zelenski was

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Speaker 3: in the White House, and that fun just took off

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Speaker 3: like like.

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Speaker 4: You would expect.

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Speaker 3: But we actually think this Asia defense today is the

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Speaker 3: hotspot actually for where things could go over the next

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Speaker 3: few years. And Takichi is very supportive for Asian defense.

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Speaker 1: As long as we're talking about China and Trump and

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Speaker 1: Japan sort of in the middle, but maybe leaning a

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Speaker 1: little bit more towards Trump, I just want to go

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Speaker 1: back to trade, which has obviously been the backdrop for

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Speaker 1: so much of what we've been talking about all year.

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Speaker 1: Japan very much an export economy. I'm curious specifically about

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Speaker 1: the automotive industry and sort of your exposure to it

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Speaker 1: and how it's going to try and navigate what's to

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Speaker 1: come and how that might impact your investments.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that that is why I've been highlighting this second fund.

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Speaker 3: I have this Japan Opportunities Fund because it's much more

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Speaker 3: in the industrials, the five buffet stocks than just betting

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Speaker 3: on the car companies.

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Speaker 4: Now I'm not saying that DXJ is just.

330
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Speaker 3: The car companies, but in terms of the sectors, you know,

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Speaker 3: DXJ fourteen a half pe it has, it's going to

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Speaker 3: have more exposure to like Toyota, which is its second

333
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Speaker 3: largest holding, or Honda, which is in the top ten.

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Speaker 3: You know, so it's going to have twenty five percent

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Speaker 3: may be closer to twenty percent in conservatives. Grechary's industrial

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Speaker 3: is still a big sector there twenty five percent, So

337
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Speaker 3: it's more tied to that. The autos has been a sector,

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Speaker 3: you know, that China's rise has been competing with. Like

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Speaker 3: my colleague Sam was just in Mexico coming off of

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Speaker 3: a Mexico trip. Everywhere, everywhere, like everything is all China cars,

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Speaker 3: and Elon had said, you know, nine of the ten

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Speaker 3: largest car kept are gonna be Chinese, you know, because

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Speaker 3: of the competition that they are so strong. It's global

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Speaker 3: competitive that the car industry has been under pressure everywhere,

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Speaker 3: and so that is China a big China competitive dynamic.

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Speaker 2: I got an ETF NERD question for you here a

347
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Speaker 2: little bit d XJ again. When I wrote my first book,

348
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Speaker 2: The ETF Toolbox, it.

349
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Speaker 5: Was like DSJA had taken over the industry.

350
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Speaker 2: So I have a whole chapter called currency hatching, which

351
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Speaker 2: isn't that big of a deal anymore like, but at

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Speaker 2: the time, that's how big it was. I made a

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Speaker 2: whole chapter for it, and I just thought, you guys

354
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Speaker 2: really set the bar for how to market an ETF

355
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,200
Speaker 2: I called speedboat marketing. Instead of acting like an aircraft carrier.

356
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Speaker 2: If you have one of these ETFs that gets hot,

357
00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,760
Speaker 2: you drop everything and you rally around this one product.

358
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,400
Speaker 2: They had ads Jrol on Bloomberg TV and elsewhere.

359
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Speaker 5: Take the yen out of Japan. I mean that is good, right.

360
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,399
Speaker 2: Jeremy was everywhere, and Deutsche Bank had a competing product

361
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,399
Speaker 2: that had actually launched earlier, but DXJ got all the money.

362
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Speaker 5: Now.

363
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,480
Speaker 2: DXJ then saw some outflows since and it's had great performance,

364
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Speaker 2: but it hasn't able to kind of get back to

365
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Speaker 2: that peak.

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Speaker 5: What do you make of that?

367
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Speaker 2: We on a team have this phrase called like it's

368
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 2: hard to get a second bite at the apple. If

369
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,920
Speaker 2: you look at high flyers and history past, especially active managers,

370
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,439
Speaker 2: these shooting star types like the Janus twenty, it's just

371
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,200
Speaker 2: hard to come back. Even if you come back performance wise,

372
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,160
Speaker 2: it's hard to come back in a sort of zeitgeist way.

373
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Speaker 2: How do you get DXJ back on people's radars, given

374
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Speaker 2: that they might have been like, well, I did that

375
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Speaker 2: ride already and it was a little and I'm not

376
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Speaker 2: doing that again yet.

377
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 4: It's very interesting.

378
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 3: I'll say I probably talked more Curtsey Hedging than anybody

379
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 3: of the industry for the last fifteen years.

380
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,360
Speaker 4: I did my first one in nine.

381
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,159
Speaker 3: I think I was the first ETF actually, and the

382
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 3: first one was broad EFA and now, interestingly in the

383
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,880
Speaker 3: history folklore, HDJ, which became Europe, was the first one

384
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 3: we converted. It's fascinating. I remember talking about a market maker.

385
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 3: We had a client who wanted to buy it, and

386
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,639
Speaker 3: the market maker didn't want to make this is we're

387
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,080
Speaker 3: talking two thousand and nine, enty ten, and they didn't

388
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,719
Speaker 3: want to quote all the spreads because you had to

389
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,159
Speaker 3: put on these hedges and it was too wide of

390
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,160
Speaker 3: a thing. And the broad EFO just didn't take off.

391
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 3: And then it was April twenty ten we had DXJ unhedged.

392
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 3: From six April twenty ten, I added the hedge. We

393
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 3: added the hedge to the end, and then it took

394
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,959
Speaker 3: off during the earthquake in twenty eleven, so the end

395
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,720
Speaker 3: really went up and people were starting to say, oh,

396
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 3: this was a going up too much, and so it

397
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:03,640
Speaker 3: started to work for the end. So we probably talking

398
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 3: about five hundred million and twenty eleven timeframe after the earthquake,

399
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 3: and we saw that it was working for a single

400
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 3: currency with Japan, and then we made hedge the European one,

401
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,439
Speaker 3: which we should have just launched a broad EFA one

402
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 3: versus converting.

403
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 4: But you know, who know you're going back in time.

404
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 3: But then then both of those took off, you know,

405
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 3: as you said, Eric, like the single currencies did take off,

406
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 3: the broad EFAs took off. We've started doing a little

407
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 3: bit below the radar now some more active hedging, Like

408
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 3: we have a multi factor family that's actively hedging.

409
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 4: We have a dynamic family.

410
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 3: Probably our big our fund that's raising the most in

411
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,879
Speaker 3: the international marks this year has been a dynamic fund

412
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 3: that does it just as part of the factors.

413
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 4: So it does seem scary.

414
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 3: I get it comes back to branding, Like people think

415
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,920
Speaker 3: dynamic currency hedge, Oh it's a scary thing, but dynamic

416
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 3: international the branding I think is a bit better in

417
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,880
Speaker 3: multi factors just one of the factors. And so we're

418
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 3: trying to win the longer game.

419
00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 4: But you know, for sure, it.

420
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 3: Real juice is volatility taking the taking out this noisy thing.

421
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 3: Currency moves seven eight percent a year. Do you really

422
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 3: want that volatility? I think most people wouldn't accept that.

423
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 3: It comes back to benchmarking questions and all right, AQUI

424
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,400
Speaker 3: or EFA have the currency, so they feel like they're

425
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 3: going to make an active call to hedge, but really

426
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:21,679
Speaker 3: the active call is to bet on the currency.

427
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 4: It's like, really, do you want to bet on the euro?

428
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 4: Really you have the long term strong bealon the Euro.

429
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 2: This is the challenge with currency hedging. You have to

430
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 2: actually change the way your mind works. You have to

431
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: see almost the way I would describe a Jeremy, I

432
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 2: would say this lets you invest as if you're a

433
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 2: person in Japan investing in the stock market. It takes

434
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 2: out this other element. So when you buy EWJ, you're actually.

435
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 5: Buying two things.

436
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 2: And I hear you because I remember I used to

437
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 2: say this was an A minus b ETF and you're like, no,

438
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 2: it's just a the other one, asked me, yeah, and

439
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:55,439
Speaker 2: you got me.

440
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 5: It took a while.

441
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 2: Some of this stuff takes a couple of years. But

442
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,719
Speaker 2: I also think you guys, that are great job of

443
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 2: diversifying away. You've got you had like this huge hit song,

444
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 2: but instead of just like relying on this one, like

445
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 2: your next couple products over the next decade, you've got

446
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 2: some huge hits that really diversified the product line. D

447
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 2: XJ is still up there for you. But like you've

448
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 2: got USFR and dg RW both seventeen sixteen billion. We've

449
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 2: written about that a couple times. But anyway, it's just interesting.

450
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 2: Wisdom Tree has always been like an interesting case study.

451
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,199
Speaker 2: Puer ETF company, publicly traded ETF company, and you know

452
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: how to like survive after you know your big hit

453
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 2: and not make sure you're not just living off of that,

454
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 2: which I think is a good lesson for all the

455
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: issuers out there.

456
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: Well, just as we as we come to the end here,

457
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 1: Jeremy like, what's next.

458
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 3: Well, in some ways it's interesting, Eric, you talked about

459
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 3: the A plus B ETFs and A minus BUS test,

460
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 3: the one that's gaining a lot of traction.

461
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 4: Now that should be so much bigger.

462
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 3: You know that we if you said, go back to

463
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 3: the TV the TV days.

464
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 4: You know what we have TV right now is our

465
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 4: gold stack. You know, are sort of.

466
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 3: Capital fishing gold funds where you put gold on top

467
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 3: of things. As gold up fifty percent year to date,

468
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 3: we have it basically US equities plus gold futures on

469
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 3: top of it GD and then we have gdm N,

470
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 3: which is miners plus gold that competes with that, those

471
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 3: are now you know, the miners are taken one hundred

472
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 3: and fifty million this year the gold overlay to the

473
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 3: S and P kind of stocks, to our own basket

474
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 3: of five hundred stocks.

475
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,959
Speaker 2: But gd is, oh my god, run is up one

476
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 2: hundred and eighty percent.

477
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 3: Top performing compared to your standard miners.

478
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 2: That's efficient gold plus miners.

479
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 5: So that's gold miners.

480
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 2: Is that like leverage at one hundred and fifty or something.

481
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's ninety ninety. So ninety percent the stocks,

482
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 3: ninety percent the futures. So it's say, you know, it's

483
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 3: adding the gold futures on top. And we do the

484
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 3: same thing with core stocks. So if you go back

485
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 3: to your deficit problems, the debt and deficits, you know,

486
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 3: people worried about the dollar.

487
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 4: You don't have to go to.

488
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 3: International to do that. Just add gold on top of

489
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 3: your US large stacks with GDE. So that's our that's

490
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,239
Speaker 3: that is really a p This is you know, this

491
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 3: is a good a good family.

492
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: By the way, Joel, they got a China X state

493
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 2: owned enterprises and so that I told them that should

494
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 2: be take the communism out of China. But they didn't

495
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: run with that, I said, that's on the house.

496
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 5: It's pretty good.

497
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 4: Bring it back.

498
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 2: Then they have one EM that's X state owned EM companies,

499
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: and I said, probably can't. I'd say take the socialism

500
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 2: out of the emerging markets.

501
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go back with that.

502
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 3: I'm gonna bring that back to the marketing team after

503
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 3: we get off.

504
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 4: This call here.

505
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 1: All right, Well, you clearly have a way of surfing

506
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: some interesting situations. Uh so, Jeremy, thanks for coming back

507
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: on Trillions and looking forward to having you back again soon.

508
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 4: I always do to show with you guys.

509
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Trillions. Until next time. You can

510
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

511
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: or wherever else you'd like to listen to. I'd love

512
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Hit us up on social I'm

513
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: at Joel Weber Show, He's at Eric Balchino's. Trillions is

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00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 1: produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Sage Bauman is the head of

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Podcast