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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, Trust trust Me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 2: I've never lived to you, and we.

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Speaker 1: Never have a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome, Welcome, Welcome to trust Me. The podcast is

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Speaker 2: about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two Edge lords

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Speaker 2: who have actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc and

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Speaker 2: I am Megan Elizabeth and today our guest is Virginia Heffernan.

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Speaker 2: She's a journalist, author, columnist at Wired, and former member

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Speaker 2: of an intellectual organization called Edge. She's going to tell

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Speaker 2: us about meeting book agent, kingmaker and Edge founder John

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Speaker 2: Rockman and how she got involved with his curated collection

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Speaker 2: of prominent academics, tech builllionaires and artists, many of whom

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Speaker 2: you would recognize, including Elon Musk Richard Dawkins, and Jeffrey Epstein.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about Edge's promise to create a third culture,

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Speaker 1: the so called Billionaire's Dinners, the group's close financial ties

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Speaker 1: to Epstein, and the overlap with the dubious academia of

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Speaker 1: the intellectual dark Web.

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Speaker 2: I realized after this interview that some conspiracy theories I

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Speaker 2: had heard before about Marina Abramovic are rooted in EDGE,

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Speaker 2: and that this is like the origin of conspiracy theories

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Speaker 2: that I knew about, but I didn't know where they

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Speaker 2: were coming from. She's an incredible artist. She's known for

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Speaker 2: performance art, you know, or she'll like sit in a

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Speaker 2: room and let people do whatever they want to her

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Speaker 2: for forty eight hours or whatever. And she's done all

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Speaker 2: of these performance pieces that are very provocative. She used

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Speaker 2: pigs blood to write phrases on walls of museum. She

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Speaker 2: invited people to a dinner party. I guess that like

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Speaker 2: for some reason, people I thought a performance thing was cannibalism,

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Speaker 2: but it was like they thought it was satanism and cannibalism.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but it was it was not. It

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Speaker 2: basically was just like outlanders conspiracy theories. However, I think

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Speaker 2: I have seen her name linked to Epstein and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and I'm guessing that this is why. But we will

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Speaker 2: find out more about that later. Interesting. Anyway, before we

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Speaker 2: dive in, Megan, can you tell me your cultiest thing

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Speaker 2: this week?

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Speaker 1: Sure, I mean we touch on if I don't want

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Speaker 1: to touch him, but we do touch on Alex Jones

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Speaker 1: in this episode, how his court case is going on

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Speaker 1: right now, and the craziness of his lawyer accidentally sending

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Speaker 1: the opposite side all of.

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Speaker 2: His text messages.

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Speaker 1: I Unfortunately, I'm friends with somebody who went super conspiracy theory,

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Speaker 1: and I'm seeing him kind of unwind this Alex Jones obsession. Really,

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Speaker 1: but I also, yeah, I also saw that Alex sent

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Speaker 1: a picture of his wife naked to another guy, and

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Speaker 1: they don't know if he had his wife's permission to

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Speaker 1: do that. So just a lot of culty things on

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Speaker 1: so many levels that I'm exploring with Alex Jones.

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Speaker 2: M So, is your friend actually like questioning his belief

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Speaker 2: in him?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a few cracks are starting to appear.

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Speaker 1: I do I think that this friend will come back

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Speaker 1: from from the dark side.

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Speaker 2: No, probably not, but maybe you never know.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I hope So what about you, what's the cultiest thing

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Speaker 1: that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: You know, I a similar thing. I was just gonna

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Speaker 2: mention mar Lago being rated by the FBI, the head

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Speaker 2: of which was actually a Trump appointee, which is super

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Speaker 2: super interesting. But basically the response on the like non Twitter,

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Speaker 2: like non mainstream Trump Pista platforms seem to be like,

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Speaker 2: this is war. Yeah, I get the abolish of the

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Speaker 2: f B, which so fucking funny. It's scary too, though,

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Speaker 2: I mean it's yes, it is scary. I mean, fortunately,

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Speaker 2: there were a bunch of tweets yesterday that were like

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Speaker 2: tomorrow it is war, and then today nothing has happened,

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Speaker 2: but everyone is saying that it's like the most riled

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Speaker 2: up that fan base has been since January sixth, which

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Speaker 2: is funny because it was presented as though he was

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Speaker 2: like stormed with guns at home, but like he was

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Speaker 2: not in town. It was very calm. It was not

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Speaker 2: this like movie scene. It was just like looking for

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Speaker 2: some boxes in the residents, which makes sense because he

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Speaker 2: was notoriously bad at giving the records to the National Archive,

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Speaker 2: which makes sense because he's notoriously bad at handing over documents.

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Speaker 2: Just regular documents like any just regular records of a

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Speaker 2: presidential term to the National Archives, which is something you

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Speaker 2: are supposed to do legally. Every president has always done that.

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Speaker 2: It's like this crazy, like maybe there's more going on

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Speaker 2: than that, but from what I understand, there's just like

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Speaker 2: records missing that he just never panned it over. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: it is so interesting how quickly it can turn to

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Speaker 2: abolish the FBI when it's his own appointee, who's the

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Speaker 2: one in charge of this fucking agency. I'm very curious

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Speaker 2: how this all pans out. I know, what a week

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Speaker 2: of like leaders who had a particular or have a

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Speaker 2: particular kind of fan base having to actually face some

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Speaker 2: consequences for their actions. And we'll see how it all.

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Speaker 2: We'll see how it all pans out. I can't wait.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm also just mainly curious to see, like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: will this be the will any of these things be

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Speaker 2: the thing that like penetrate some of those diehard followers

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Speaker 2: belief systems? And maybe not, because as we know, it

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Speaker 2: is not about facts. It is about feeling safe and comfortable.

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Speaker 2: And we'll see how it all pans out. Yes we will.

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Speaker 2: Let's go to the interview. Welcome, Virginia Heffernan.

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Speaker 3: It's so nice to be here, so nice to have you.

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Speaker 2: I'm so curious about this group that we were talking

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Speaker 2: about today. I feel like if I were a conspiracy theorist,

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Speaker 2: I would see this group and think that that is

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Speaker 2: where the illuminati illuminadi.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Chemtrails. They have the actual Camtrails factory. You know

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Speaker 3: you need someone who produces the coemptray.

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Speaker 2: Oh sure, sure, people see that.

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Speaker 3: Wow. Right, so it's the center of it all. Wow.

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Speaker 2: First of all, I want I want to get into

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Speaker 2: your personal experience, but can you just give us a

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Speaker 2: little bit of context. Who is John Brockman and what

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Speaker 2: is the edge?

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Speaker 3: John Brockman is unfailingly referred to as an impresario.

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Speaker 4: He is not considered by anyone really.

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Speaker 3: To be a guru. His real job is literary agent.

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Speaker 4: He sells books.

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Speaker 3: From writers and sometimes from non writers, from just celebrities,

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Speaker 3: and he hosts conferences for people he always calls scientists,

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Speaker 3: although many of them have no training in heart science.

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Speaker 3: And there are a lot of entrepreneurs in that set too,

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Speaker 3: whose names you'd recognize. Billionaires, the Google guys, Jack Dorsey,

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Speaker 3: just about any of the huge founders you can think of.

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Speaker 2: Did you learn about him first or did you learn

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Speaker 2: about the organization first?

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Speaker 3: All right, my marriage was falling apart, and I had

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Speaker 3: a new baby, and I really needed to make some

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Speaker 3: money on my maternity leave because it was fast becoming

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Speaker 3: clear that I would soon be a breadwinner. So I

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Speaker 3: thought that my agent, who is very literary, I had

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Speaker 3: done a PhD in English, so I had found someone who,

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Speaker 3: did you know, kind of quiet, beautiful books when I

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Speaker 3: first got to New York. But she was being very

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Speaker 3: slow in thinking through the book, and I just had

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Speaker 3: dollar signs in my own I just wanted to get

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Speaker 3: rich quick, or at least get out of consumer debt quick.

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Speaker 4: So I looked.

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Speaker 3: I was like, how do men publish these huge books

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Speaker 3: about the Internet that are suddenly everywhere?

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Speaker 4: Like Chris Anderson, the founder of Ted, and.

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Speaker 3: The other one I was looking at is Clay Shirky,

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Speaker 3: and I had their giant bestsellers on my book, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, how do they do it? I only

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Speaker 3: knew this like small corner of publishing where you got

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Speaker 3: small advances and you know, a certain amount of attention

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Speaker 3: and a fun book party in a small circle. But

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Speaker 3: I didn't know how to write one of these blockbuster

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Speaker 3: books that gets me ted talks. So I opened their

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Speaker 3: books to the acknowledgments and it said, you know, thank

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Speaker 3: you to my wife and to the fact checkers, and

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Speaker 3: to this and that and to my God, above God's

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Speaker 3: John Bracka taught me everything I know. So suddenly I

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Speaker 3: thought I need John Brockman.

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Speaker 4: He has my secret.

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Speaker 3: He's right, He's going to be the key to everything.

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Speaker 3: So I just cold called him that day and he

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Speaker 3: told me he needed women because he had been accused

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Speaker 3: of misogyny, so he would take me on.

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Speaker 4: He also had Naomi.

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Speaker 3: Wolf, the sort of sense disgrace cultural writer, and a

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Speaker 3: few other people including Carol Gilligan, a feminist of the seventies,

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Speaker 3: and some really one really interesting physicist Lisa Randall. But

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Speaker 3: mostly I just thought he was just like the baller

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Speaker 3: you know in sometimes you just want like a big

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Speaker 3: guy with a lot of money behind your back.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I mean above God, Yeah, bring it on.

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Speaker 3: He didn't offer me any spiritual guidance, but he just

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Speaker 3: offered me the promise of introducing me to a big advance,

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Speaker 3: and so I went in and met with him. He

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Speaker 3: was funny, he was super flirty in a way that

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 4: I'm fifty three.

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Speaker 3: I didn't think that him commenting on my postpart and

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Speaker 3: body was anything to worry about, or at least if

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Speaker 3: it made me uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: It was a discomfort.

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Speaker 3: I was comfortable, right, And then he talked forever and

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Speaker 3: showed me all these pictures of him.

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Speaker 4: With his famous clients.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure if his most infamous and loathed client,

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Speaker 3: Jeffrey Evstein was among the ones he showed me, but

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Speaker 3: he showed me a lot of tech leaders, and I

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Speaker 3: was sold. And then he went on and sold the book.

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Speaker 2: So he successfully made you that money. Was it very

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Speaker 2: quick that that happened.

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Speaker 3: It was pretty quick, and it wasn't much of an auction.

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Speaker 3: He had promised a huge auction, and I was going

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Speaker 3: to say it was very low, six figures, but why

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Speaker 3: not just say it.

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Speaker 4: It was one hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like a lot, but it took me six

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Speaker 3: years to write the book, and it was over three

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Speaker 3: four payments, you know, less agent's fee, which was for

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Speaker 3: him twenty percent. So it wasn't enough to pay for

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Speaker 3: those years. But I was really happy to sell it,

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Speaker 3: and I ended up loving the editor and the publisher,

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Speaker 3: which was Simon and Schuster. So Brockman did introduce me

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Speaker 3: to that, and he also had the kind of on

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Speaker 3: his roster the premier ted talk speaker, circuit agent or

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Speaker 3: one of them who had all his clients. So he

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Speaker 3: introduced me to him, to David Lavin, and for a

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Speaker 3: while I did some of the talks. If they couldn't

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Speaker 3: get the guys that they wanted, they would sometimes go

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Speaker 3: for me at you know, some low level corporate weekends.

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Speaker 2: Right. That's nice for you, Prize.

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Speaker 1: Did you feel equally respected as his male clients or

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Speaker 1: did you feel like he was kind of just needing women.

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Speaker 3: I think he needed women. One thing he said was

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Speaker 3: he never invited me to the conferences, including conferences that

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Speaker 3: are held on so called Lolita Island, which is which

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Speaker 3: is Jeffrey Epstein's island where he had we now know,

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Speaker 3: many young women sort of working there as massage therapists

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Speaker 3: to be aggled and then to you know, do sex working.

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Speaker 3: That Lolita Island and the Lolita Express were the names

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Speaker 3: of his plane and his island, and it was a

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Speaker 3: pretty open secret that I know that the people in

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Speaker 3: the airport and the Virgin Islands refer to the Lolita

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Speaker 3: Express and Lolyda Island. I mean, if you can believe it,

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Speaker 3: he was considered I think a modelizer, which was sort

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Speaker 3: of like an eighties nineties term, like he dates models

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Speaker 3: and a question about really how old models are, or

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Speaker 3: whether these women are models, or whether these women are

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Speaker 3: even there willingly.

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Speaker 4: So he had these.

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Speaker 3: Conferences there, and he said at some point they were

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Speaker 3: very private because otherwise he'd have to invite women. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it was like old school misogyny, you know, just line

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Speaker 3: after line about this and that, and I think I

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Speaker 3: just felt so much smaller than this circle. It included,

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Speaker 3: you know, plenty of legitimate intellectuals, not my favorite people,

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Speaker 3: but Stephen Pinker and Lawrence Krause who was credibly accused

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Speaker 3: and disciplined of sexual assault, Michael Schrmer, Marvin Minsky, also

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Speaker 3: sexual abuse and assault.

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Speaker 4: And then Joey Edo Joey chi Edo who.

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Speaker 3: Was recently my colleague at Wired, but he's the former

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Speaker 3: head of the MIT Media Lab, extremely influential. He just

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Speaker 3: resigned from MIT two years ago for his ties to Epstein.

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Speaker 3: But some of these were really impressive people. David Brooks,

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Speaker 3: surprisingly conservative, Oh Jeff Bezos, A Sargey Brinn, Juri Milner,

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Speaker 3: John Searle, the Philosopher originally Stephen J. Gould, Isaac g Asamov,

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Speaker 3: Stuart Brand. I say this because you know how lots

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Speaker 3: of cults, you know, you think of the actors in

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Speaker 3: nexim or you know, some of just people with money

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Speaker 3: or people with profiles that make you think, well, if

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Speaker 3: they're doing.

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Speaker 2: It gentlemen, totally yeah, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, who thinks that a Stanford philosopher or

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Speaker 3: the head of the MIT Media Lab is going to

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Speaker 3: be part of something like this, if that's kind of

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Speaker 3: the world you aspire to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I want to throw out some other names

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Speaker 2: that I saw on the website, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: who was a member at that time, but Sam Harris,

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Speaker 2: Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Daniel Konneman, who I tried to

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Speaker 2: get on the show and has not come on, Elon Musk,

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Speaker 2: Jeff Bezos, and then also Rupert Sheldrake and Brett Weinstein

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Speaker 2: who are slightly questionable, and then artists like Marina Abramovic

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Speaker 2: and Peter Gabriel and Terry Gilliam. So it really runs

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Speaker 2: the gamut of people that are respected in all of

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Speaker 2: these different spheres, and I absolutely see how that would

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Speaker 2: seem like something you'd want to be a part of.

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Speaker 3: Of course, yes, I mean it was a little ominous

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Speaker 3: that so many of them, including Harris Sheldrake obviously Brett Weinstein,

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Speaker 3: struck me as I didn't call it the intellectual dark

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Speaker 3: web then, but it struck me as they were almost

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Speaker 3: black pilled.

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Speaker 4: Have you heard that expression?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't.

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Speaker 3: What is that? It's like so called dark maga or

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Speaker 3: the intellectual dark web.

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Speaker 4: It's like, how about I strike.

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Speaker 3: A position that could be considered very Islamophobic or fascist

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Speaker 3: or Nazi, just very it feels very very dark and conspiratorial.

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Speaker 3: And I don't want to lump all of them in together,

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Speaker 3: but you know, some of the things that Harris has

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Speaker 3: said about Islam I find alarming. But then they were

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Speaker 3: in the room with Daniel Konnoman, So.

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Speaker 2: For anyone who doesn't hear about thinking fast and slow,

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Speaker 2: he kind of pioneered this idea of system one and

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Speaker 2: system two thinking, which we've talked about a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, super incredibly interesting.

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Speaker 3: But I should also say that a lot of those

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Speaker 3: big stars on the list, so like Jeff bezos, people

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Speaker 3: who didn't finish college, like I think Jack Dorsey didn't.

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Speaker 3: The intellectuals, you know, the PhDs who were academics, wanted

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Speaker 3: to be near money.

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Speaker 1: They're all using each other the other thing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, when was Edge first started? And then when did

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Speaker 2: you become a part of it?

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Speaker 3: The agency the people whose books John Brockman was actually

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Speaker 3: selling together with his wife and son, Max Brockman. That

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Speaker 3: was one active part of the company that worked like

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Speaker 3: an agency. The Edge part was a different thing. So

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Speaker 3: that was where just the proximity of the smart people

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Speaker 3: and the rich people were supposed to ennoble both of them.

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Speaker 3: He would just say why don't you join Edge, and

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Speaker 3: he'd put the name on the site, and you just thought,

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Speaker 3: no harm can come of this. And then you know,

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Speaker 3: like a party where they tell you that this member

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Speaker 3: of the Cast of the Hills is at this club.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, you should come.

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Speaker 1: Adult Hills, Total Adult Hills.

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Speaker 3: It was exactly that. It was exactly that. So that

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Speaker 3: was the Edge part. And they would put you on

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Speaker 3: the website and you would contribute. Some people would contribute

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Speaker 3: to an anthology every year, and I contributed to Were

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Speaker 3: three times, and Jeffrey Epstein, I think contributed once again.

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Speaker 3: While that was happening, I didn't know anything about the connections.

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Speaker 4: Its origin story.

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Speaker 3: Is interesting and hard to find, but I can fill

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Speaker 3: you in. In nineteen eighty one, in my estimation, a

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Speaker 3: certain group of men John Searles, Stephen J. Gold, Isaac Asimov,

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Speaker 3: Daniel Hillis, and John Brockman came together basically to be

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Speaker 3: mad at all the literary critics and artists of the

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Speaker 3: time who were very in the humanities. So like, if

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Speaker 3: you think of this as the heyday of Fuco and

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Speaker 3: dary Da and people that young women at Yale were

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Speaker 3: reading or in Paris were reading, my guess is that

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Speaker 3: they thought scientists weren't getting enough action or they weren't

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Speaker 3: cool enough. And it is actually interesting to remember a

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Speaker 3: time before you know, all these bestsellers were by neuroscientists.

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Speaker 4: You know, this is when the.

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Speaker 3: Group is pretty geeky and isn't breaking out into giant

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Speaker 3: celebrity tech talks, right, the tech.

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Speaker 1: Thing that we know now, the shiny glittery.

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Speaker 2: Tech guys, science guy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't hot yet.

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Speaker 3: They decided to sort of frame literary critics and people

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Speaker 3: in the humanities and artists as part of the anesthesiology

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Speaker 3: of wisdom. So that was like, wisdom is this kind

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Speaker 3: of boring old thing. Stuart Brand called it the old

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Speaker 3: human interest stuff, and they, by contrast, wanted to be

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Speaker 3: thinking smart. And that's what they said. The ethic of

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Speaker 3: the Reality Club is thinking smart versus the anesthesiology of

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Speaker 3: wisdom that put you to sleep. What does that mean?

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Speaker 2: I saw on the website it says we are interested

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Speaker 2: in thinking smart, we are not interested in received wisdom.

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Speaker 3: But if you see where Stuart Brand spelled that out,

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Speaker 3: what he said was, we're not interested in the old

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Speaker 3: human interest stuff. The same old he said, she said,

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Speaker 3: the politics and economics, the same sorry cyclic drama. So

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Speaker 3: basically he's talking about human stories Shakespeare right exactly, but

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Speaker 3: also stories of politics and economics that were in the news.

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Speaker 3: They wanted to hack stuff. They wanted you know, you

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Speaker 3: think how Elon Musk thinks. Now you know how recently

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Speaker 3: Musk has said that you need to practice something like

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Speaker 3: long termism, which is let people die in the climate

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Speaker 3: crisis so that later people will be saved on Mars.

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Speaker 3: That's sort of the politics and economics. It's not just

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Speaker 3: sleepy wisdom to thine own self be true kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: It's all of the humanities and the social sciences and

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Speaker 3: journalism as opposed to zeros and ones and hacking.

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Speaker 1: There's something exciting about it. I get a little like,

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Speaker 1: oh cool, that's interesting. Let's not be sleepy anymore.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was called Little Lee the third culture, right.

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Speaker 3: That's it exactly. So it was somewhere between science and literature,

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Speaker 3: science and art. This is this third way that John Brockman,

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Speaker 3: he imagined he was pioneering. So he did have Brian

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Speaker 3: Youo and other artists involved, as long as they were

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Speaker 3: hyper manly. And you know, it was just a he said,

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Speaker 3: he said there. I mean, it was just men, men, men, men,

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Speaker 3: and they would dress in this dashing kind and I

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Speaker 3: don't know what they thought of as dashing way. I

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Speaker 3: cannot wait to look that up. It's like Fedora, really embarrassing.

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Speaker 3: And you really do see the tenets of the intellectual

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Speaker 3: dark Web in the stuff that they were starting to

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Speaker 3: do in the eighties. And Brockman ended up being the,

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Speaker 3: as I say, the impresario of that.

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Speaker 2: The intellectual dark web is something that I just find

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Speaker 2: endlessly fascinating. Those men, I mean it's not all men

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Speaker 2: but primarily men. And that just sort of way of thinking,

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Speaker 2: which basically I feel like tends to smithed the idea

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Speaker 2: of there being any validity in like emotion. There seems

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Speaker 2: to be like this holding up this ideal of like objectivity.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be objective and logical and not be

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Speaker 2: hindered by our feelings, which just inherent. There's something that

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Speaker 2: feels it's rejecting our humanity, it's rejecting like femininity, it's

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Speaker 2: rejecting feelings. And I'm broadly overgeneralizing because there are lots

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Speaker 2: of conversations that happened, but I would say I feel

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Speaker 2: like that is when I'm like reading YouTube comments on

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Speaker 2: some of these people's posts, it's like so logical, so logical,

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Speaker 2: Oh fact, Oh you're the god findly finally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean it seems funny to me there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there are a lot of curious parts of it.

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Speaker 3: There are some people with legitimate intellectual credibility or sort

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Speaker 3: of academic achievement, but they are few and far between,

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Speaker 3: and some of them are like Jordan Peterson, are disgraced

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Speaker 3: in the academy I did. For what it's worth a

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Speaker 3: PhD in England at Harvard, and I spent a lot

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Speaker 3: of time at the Berkman Center, so I sort of

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Speaker 3: felt like I was really present to a lot of

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Speaker 3: this early conversation about the Internet. But there were women,

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Speaker 3: as you know, on the Internet early. So I joined

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Speaker 3: in the late seventies as a child and then stayed

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Speaker 3: on all this time. Who kind of got left out

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Speaker 3: of all these thought leadership, all this thought leadership by

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Speaker 3: this intellectual dark web. And at the same time, you know,

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Speaker 3: someone like Sam Harris has tilted into psychedelics and Buddhism basically.

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Speaker 3: There have been some nice exposes of how much any

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Speaker 3: version of Buddhism tilts into you know, extreme truth statements

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Speaker 3: and even a kind of religion that he would reject

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Speaker 3: if it were different. I just think that they're filled

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Speaker 3: with contradictions. I do think that they love to turn

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Speaker 3: and good for them, they love to own the Libs.

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Speaker 3: It's like high level QAnon basically, and some of it

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Speaker 3: is actually QAnon. They're very bad at some liberals that

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Speaker 3: I don't recognize when they describe what liberals say. You know,

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Speaker 3: obviously they hate wokeism, the fact that they considered wisdom

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Speaker 3: anesesiology suggests that they too have an idea that they

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Speaker 3: are awake and everyone else is asleep.

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Speaker 2: Right, Oh god, it's cute. Right, it's like, oh, you

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Speaker 2: think you're not affected by bias.

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Speaker 1: But the scary thing is is when you think of QAnon,

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh no, it's like a bunch of lonely

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Speaker 1: people at their house. But this is people who are

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Speaker 1: running our planet.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think of it as like single malt QAnon.

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Speaker 3: You know, they hated the lockdown, they hated masks, they

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Speaker 3: don't like Libs, they don't like Black Lives Matter, they

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Speaker 3: don't like the squad, they don't like you know, it's

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Speaker 3: just exactly that same list, which just.

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Speaker 4: Turns upside down.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's like there now, it seems there will

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Speaker 3: always be a cluster of students on every campus who

437
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 3: are strongly pro Israel if other people aren't, or they

438
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,719
Speaker 3: believe the date rape, you know, the woman's asking for it,

439
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 3: you know, just everything that.

440
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 4: Would appall would shock the Libs.

441
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're just a chunk and they just move around.

442
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,959
Speaker 3: I don't understand quite how they think of themselves as

443
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 3: such iconoclasts. They've been on campuses since William Buckley since

444
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 3: the fifties.

445
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: We all think we're original.

446
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 2: It is such black and white thinking from the people

447
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: who are so insistent that everyone else is. Are the

448
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 2: people doing the black and white thinking?

449
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I keep thinking about this metaphor of that QAnon

450
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 3: has the Great Awakening. A lot of cults have ideas

451
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 3: of who's awakened, who's asleep.

452
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 4: They're usually the awake ones.

453
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 3: And then, of course the word woke, which you know

454
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: isn't used in earnest by anyone except people trying to

455
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 3: satirize or criticize it now, but you know, early on

456
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 3: it suggested a kind of like heightened consciousness for some people.

457
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 4: And once you start.

458
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 3: In any way thinking that other people are anesthetized, or

459
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 3: other people are sheep, or other people are the walking dead,

460
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 3: you're really teeing up an inhumane way of seeing other people.

461
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely, that's a really good way to put it.

462
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 2: So sorry, what year was it approximately when you first

463
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 2: met John?

464
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 3: Biddy came in in. My daughter was just born in

465
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 3: two thousand and nine, okay, And.

466
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: There's an interesting distinction there, Like I remember reading an

467
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: article that you wrote where you were talking about how

468
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: how are all these men getting further ahead than me

469
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: when I'm doing the same exact thing, Like, do you

470
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: think there was any way you could have jumped that

471
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: barrier without linking with him?

472
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 3: I mean, I think what I have found talking to

473
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 3: Zadi Jarden, talking to Sarah Slazovitz, talking to people who

474
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 3: have been you know, in and around the internet for

475
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 3: a very long time. And we're talking about the eighties.

476
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 3: We were kind of like the female sweat hoog, like

477
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 3: you know, the sidekick person at south By Southwest or

478
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 3: you know, even at Cees the consumer electronics thing in

479
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 3: Las Vegas. There weren't very many women obviously, but it

480
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 3: wasn't like we were, you know, wearing suits.

481
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,719
Speaker 4: We were like thought that there was an equality.

482
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden people started to give

483
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 3: these highly paid talks and that just didn't happen for

484
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 3: the women. Yeah, they didn't get the advances. And when

485
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 3: I joined up with Brockman, I mean, I would look

486
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 3: at some of these people. So David Brooks, right of

487
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 3: the New York Times, is on his list. David Brooks

488
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 3: wrote his book Bobo's in Paradise about the bohemian bourgeoisie

489
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 3: that he coined, and then it was summarily discredited. I

490
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 3: mean discredited, like in every way. He went to two counties.

491
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 3: One of the counties he said, you couldn't get a

492
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 3: meal for more than twenty dollars, just a small thing, right,

493
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 3: He tried every restaurant, couldn't get a meal for twenty dollars.

494
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 3: And a journalist, Sasha Issenberg, went to that county and

495
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 3: could spend twenty dollars for dinner anywhere. So he clearly

496
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 3: hadn't been anywhere to dinner. And this was also there

497
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 3: were no yoga studios. There were yoga studios. Right, this

498
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 3: is a huge book, huge writer David Brooks, and his

499
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 3: career just continued. You know, he had no advanced degree,

500
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 3: no specialization, but just some kind of swagger and connections.

501
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: And I think, I mean you all have probably felt this,

502
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 3: like why is it Joe Rogan or you know, Alex

503
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: freaking Jones with their weird loud voices when you like

504
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 3: write down what they say and it can be just moronic,

505
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 3: like if we said that stuff, Oh my gosh, kind

506
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 3: of the male mediocrity.

507
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: Did you guys see the big sign they have in

508
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: the Alex Jones trial right now, they had to write

509
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: down don't lie to the jury and put it in

510
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: front of him for real.

511
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 3: The judge. Yes, oh my god, that is the best

512
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 3: thing I've ever heard. It's so fantastic, And that's right.

513
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 3: Don't lie to your readers, David Brooks, like I can

514
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 3: say it about any of these a lot of these people.

515
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: And then the sex scandals started rolling in, and that's

516
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 3: where we get to the really dark stuff, the black

517
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 3: pills part of it with Jeffrey Epstein.

518
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 2: So there are these billionaires dinners that take place what

519
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 2: once a year.

520
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 3: I was never invited, only a couple of normal writer women,

521
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 3: but a lot of women were invited. They are girls,

522
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 3: they were just teenagers. Oh my god, yeah they so

523
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 3: I don't actually know if they were every year. And

524
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 3: of course they were called billionaires dinners. They're not that

525
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 3: many billionaires that you could invite, you know. But there

526
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 3: was bezos, and there was pictures of people who showed

527
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 3: up at it, and a lot of women in tech

528
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 3: and even lawyers for some of the litigants in Epstein case.

529
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: Believes that those people were wing manning for Epstein while

530
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,719
Speaker 3: they were there, and it's like, who's who you know?

531
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 3: We can like look through all those photos. But it's

532
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: the people we've named.

533
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: It's like of nerds, yeah, yeah, yes, and the.

534
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 4: Oscars of nerds. It's the oscars of nerds. And it's

535
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 4: nerds that have real money in the power. Yeah. I

536
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 4: mean Alan Dershowitz is there.

537
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: Oh that man. This like symbiotic relationship between academics and scientists,

538
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: tech people and billionaires is just super super interesting to me.

539
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: They just want to feel smart, right, the billionaires just

540
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: want to get to feel smart.

541
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 4: I think so.

542
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 3: And that is I mean, if I can bring up Epstein, Yeah,

543
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 3: lots of his friends to whom he gave money. You know,

544
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 3: he gave a lot of money sometimes. I mean he

545
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: laundered at through Harvard and MIT. You know, styled himself

546
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 3: as a philanthropist for science. Now his areas of science,

547
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 3: and some of this stuff has come out in your work.

548
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 3: Some of this stuff has come out in unlikely places

549
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 3: like Aubrey Gordon and Michael Hobbs's show a maintenance Phase,

550
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: that eugenics are just a huge preoccupation of men like this.

551
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 3: That was Epstein's own teen area of interest. He you know,

552
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 3: he wanted to bring young women and you know, create

553
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 3: a of millions he also wanted to preserve his own penis.

554
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 3: And there were a lot of men in this group.

555
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 3: So Epstein's a high school dropout, but he's talking about

556
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 3: this stuff that is it's super sick. It's just as

557
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 3: sick as it gets, right, And their work as academics

558
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 3: is on stuff like their own intellectual superiority, the same

559
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 3: thing the intellectual Dark Web likes to talk about. You know,

560
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,959
Speaker 3: they're things like right that they're white, and they're this

561
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 3: and that, and that's why they're more qualified and male,

562
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: that's why they're better at math, that's why X y

563
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 3: Z like. They just do study after study that reproduces

564
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: the Bell Croove to talk about. If you take their

565
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 3: brains apart, they're just intrinsically smarter than we are.

566
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: Who is doing these studies?

567
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 3: One thing I linked to as an interview with Timothy

568
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: Leary because he was Joey Edo's godfather. This is where

569
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 3: we get to the illuminis as. So a lot of

570
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 3: the LSD crowd from heart right. So Leary is the

571
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: perfect father of this. So a lot of them draw

572
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: on Leary's work to make this point about their intellectual superiority.

573
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 3: There's also a study by some scientists at Dartmouth who

574
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 3: were found to be running a literally rape ring, who

575
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 3: on why alpha males are attracted to very thin women

576
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 3: and what anarexia does to further something? So might so

577
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 3: in any case they are doing this kind of work.

578
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 3: Epstein is having these kind of overman, it's not too

579
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 3: much to say, a kind of fascist dreams about spreading

580
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: his own seed, which is just for a whole thing.

581
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 3: But his bookish friends like to laugh at him and say,

582
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 3: whenever a conversation went over.

583
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 4: Its head, he'd ask, what does that got to do

584
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 4: with pussy? That was his favorite refrain.

585
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 2: I like pasted that quote really big into our doc

586
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: because that is just in it's comical. It's so over

587
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: the top.

588
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 3: It's really chilling how long people sat for that kind

589
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 3: of conversation. And this was, you know, I'd say this

590
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 3: was hiding in plan site. It was hiding in more

591
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 3: than plan site.

592
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 4: It was hiding on ted.

593
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 3: Stages, you know, and on the op ed page of

594
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 3: the New York.

595
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,719
Speaker 1: Times, because he was still welcome back after he got

596
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: arrested the first time.

597
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 4: Correct, that's right.

598
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's when he even brought some seemingly underage

599
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: women to MIT to talk to Joey Edo, one of

600
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: Brockman's clients and an EDGE member who ended up even

601
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: after consulting with someone who'd been sexually abused as a

602
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 3: child to see if he should do it, took money

603
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 3: from Jeffrey Epstein millions to fund research at MIT, and

604
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 3: some of the people I've mentioned, including people whose work

605
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: edges up to eugenics, are the people he funded at Harvard.

606
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 3: So then there's also there's another figure who's very close

607
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 3: to Epstein whose work is at Dartmouth. And all these

608
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 3: people now are having their names taken off buildings. MIT

609
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: is having to, you know, distribute the money Brockman's money

610
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 3: to help women, and Joey Edo was removed from the

611
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 3: board at WIRED. I should just emphasize I think he's

612
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 3: really brilliant. He's one of the few I think is

613
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: really brilliant. But I think he you know, he made

614
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 3: a horrible, horrible mistake, and he's.

615
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 4: Made the right decision in resigning. So that really blew up.

616
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 3: But Illuminati is exactly the right place to start with this,

617
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 3: because yeah, they're such elites, right, I mean, they're the

618
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 3: elites of the elites. I mean I should also add

619
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 3: no one talk to me like I thought. I was

620
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 3: like suddenly it was gonna be swept away on private

621
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: planes and stuff. But I was just back to being

622
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: a single mom. You know.

623
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: Well, I just wrote a couple things down here. So

624
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, John Brockman attended an intimate dinner for

625
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein's celebrating his release from prison.

626
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 4: That's right.

627
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: His famous literary dinners were almost entirely funded by Epstein

628
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: for a number of years after his conviction, as documented

629
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 2: his annual tax filings. After he made his final recorded

630
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: donation to EDGE in twenty fifteen, the group stopped hosting

631
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: the annual Billionaires dinner. So this is like very very

632
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 2: much intertwined. This is not like just a fringe member.

633
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 2: He is literally like funding this group. Yeah.

634
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 3: So a lot of the critics from outside, including Zadi Jardin,

635
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 3: who's done amazing work on this, say very convincingly that

636
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 3: EDGE was Epstein.

637
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 4: So if you felt like the place was a wash.

638
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 3: In money, and I think I left, well I may

639
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 3: have mentioned Brockman's office, which I met him in that

640
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 3: in his office was you had private menus, you know,

641
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 3: like just and then also it was in the former

642
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 3: Playboy Club, and he pointed out, you know, all kinds

643
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 3: of things that I was supposed to recognize but couldn't,

644
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: but like I guess basically like whips and Chain's kind

645
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 3: of BDSM style stuff that he just thought was hilarious.

646
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 3: You know, it was incredible expensive. I mean, the margin

647
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 3: on books is not that high, and you had the

648
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 3: feeling of being with the Marquis de Sade or something, right,

649
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 3: you know, like just some kind of like Diletant Royalty.

650
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 3: It's just super dark. Like it was just a very

651
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 3: creepy feeling.

652
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: Even just aside from the obvious like Epstein being a horrible,

653
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: abusive monster, just the idea that, like scientists who are

654
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: doing research, that we desperately need research to be done

655
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 2: at all times. We need to be progressing scientifically and

656
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: as much as possible. The fact that they are relying

657
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:43,479
Speaker 2: on billionaires to fund their research, who would maybe want

658
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: them to take it in a particular direction, just strikes

659
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 2: me as something that is not conducive to the kind

660
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 2: of science that we want.

661
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 3: I would go very far on this, and I would

662
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 3: say that these men need to have their work looked

663
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 3: at again. They strike me as people who've exploited, in

664
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 3: particular the very young field of neuroscience to do all

665
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 3: kinds of just so stories about alpha males, and obviously

666
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 3: evo psych has taken a lot of hits, and that

667
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 3: was one of their favorites. I mean, really evolutionary psychology.

668
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 3: It's like all those stories that are men are naturally

669
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: promiscuous or whatever the opposite of monogamous is and women

670
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 3: want to tie them down, and men like women with

671
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 3: a perfect waiste to hip ratio because they want to,

672
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 3: or who are nineteen, and that's just the way it is.

673
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 3: And you know there are times when men are having

674
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 3: sex with younger women.

675
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 4: Was fine? Is fine?

676
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 3: A lot of the like assortative mating. It's been very

677
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 3: big to explain basically everything wolf Pack die that men

678
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 3: with the most resources and the strongest.

679
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 2: The loster psychology.

680
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 3: Yes, and a lot of it has been proven time

681
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 3: after time wrong. It's like David Brooks's book, And you know,

682
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 3: I think that the real way to get it the

683
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 3: problems of Edge, is to unveil its sophistry. Unveil the

684
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 3: fact that most of these guys are like has beens

685
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: and dilettants who are writing really sketchy stuff and calling

686
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 3: it science.

687
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 4: You know, everyone there.

688
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 3: Was supposed to be a scientist. And I will just

689
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 3: speak for myself. I have not taken a science class

690
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 3: since physics when I was a senior in high school.

691
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 3: There might have been beaches, ghosts and rivers in college,

692
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 3: and the same is true for so many of these people.

693
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 3: They might have a background in social science, but they're

694
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 3: not hard scientists and Rupert Sheldrick, as you mentioned Jonah Larrair,

695
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 3: their intellectual dishonesty, plagiarism, Mark de Hauser has just been

696
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 3: revealed time and time again not to mention their abuse,

697
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 3: and they're bad ideology. So my three points on the

698
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 3: triangle for cults, they need to have fraud, final fraud

699
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 3: and other kinds of fraud. They need to have abuse,

700
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 3: and they need to have bad ideology, and Edge has

701
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 3: all of them.

702
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 2: The website is still up and the premise is like

703
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 2: just a conversation between two people with interesting ideas and

704
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 2: asking each other the questions they would normally ask themselves.

705
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 2: So it's producing this like, you know, highly intellectual conversation.

706
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: Do you think that what they've been doing is valuable

707
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 2: in that way? Do you think there's still value, Like,

708
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 2: how do you conceive of that now?

709
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's easy to slag off you

710
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 3: know what David Koresh or what Keith Ranieri just some

711
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,959
Speaker 3: of their nonsense and gibberish, you know, of their many

712
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 3: proclamations about the world. And it's harder with these guys, obviously,

713
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: because they have you know what we used to call

714
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 3: in graduate school.

715
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 4: They have the phallus, they have the logos.

716
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 3: They're the ones assumed to speak the truth. But I

717
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 3: do think a systematic analysis or or a close reading

718
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 3: of some of their work would show intellectual fraud. I

719
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 3: can give you just one example, if that would clean

720
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 3: about Yeah. So John Searle, the philosopher, is famous for

721
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 3: this thing called the Chinese room theory, and I did

722
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 3: philosophy as an undergraduate. Everyone heard about it. I'm not going

723
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 3: to explain it. It's not interesting, but he coined it

724
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty. I think I was at a conference

725
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 3: with him in Oslo and twenty sixteen, not organized by EDGE,

726
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 3: to which incidentally he brought a woman I think she

727
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 3: was sixty years his junior, which might have been who

728
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 3: didn't speak English, which might be the biggest age gap

729
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 3: I've ever seen between a couple in a couple. But

730
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 3: he was going to give a talk and he had

731
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 3: asked alone. He had asked to fly first class where

732
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 3: the rest of us didn't. And there were a lot

733
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 3: of serious people there and interesting people there, and he.

734
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 4: Asked to have a plus one.

735
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: Who was this woman who I actually felt a bit

736
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 3: worried about when I saw her. And he was giving

737
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 3: this talk on the Chinese his theory from nineteen eighty.

738
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 3: While he was giving the talk, he did things like say, well,

739
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 3: no one could understand this Chinese, and he wrote gobbledegook

740
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 3: on the whiteboard to show how crazy Chinese was, Chinese

741
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 3: just being a language no one speaks in his thing.

742
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 3: And then he did an oppression of Chinese in like

743
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 3: a fum and chee accent. So there was a lot

744
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 3: that was dated about it. And he paced around in

745
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 3: this way, and he had pacing that I just suspiciously

746
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 3: thought he's done this Before I looked it up on YouTube.

747
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 3: It was like frame for frame, the same speech he's

748
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 3: been giving for forty years. And this is this giant

749
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 3: intellectual I had learned about him in college as the

750
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 3: author of the Chinese room theory, and here he was

751
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 3: milking this thing for a gravy train and a way

752
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 3: to meet very young women. He told a lot of

753
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 3: jokes about coming to Oslo in the old days with

754
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 3: some of his friends and going out, and the implication

755
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 3: was they did drugs and got girls or whatever. And

756
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 3: there's no reason that that Chinese room thing with those

757
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 3: things in it is any more meaningful than something Keith

758
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 3: Rniary said. And that's the Emperor has New Clothes feeling

759
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 3: I emerged with after dropping Brockman as my agent.

760
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 4: Although he won't take me off the edge.

761
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. Why do you think that is just

762
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: because I mean that he won't take her up. Yeah,

763
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: because he's he kind of wants identification with you.

764
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 3: I'm sure.

765
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean he's very unwell.

766
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 3: I mean, he's old, and it's possible he just hasn't

767
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 3: seen this. And I know that he's keeping a very

768
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 3: low profile since Epstein's arrest and a parent death by suicide.

769
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 2: We didn't actually say this in our introduction, but we

770
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 2: are talking to you because you wrote an article for

771
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 2: Wired kind of talking about these experiences. And then, yeah,

772
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: your name is on the website. I was like, do

773
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 2: they is that? Are they sure this light?

774
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 3: I've gone back and forth with some other women in

775
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 3: it about why they're not taking our names down, and

776
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 3: it's not clear. One hugely important thing, though, is there

777
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: are so few women in it that unlike with people

778
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 3: in the orbit of like Harvey Weinstein or other abusers,

779
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 3: there's it's hard to build a community around people who

780
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 3: saw this and are whistleblowers in it. And again I

781
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 3: want to give a lot of credit to Zenny Jardin,

782
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 3: who was much more drawn into it and saw more

783
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 3: of the Billionaire Dinners than I did.

784
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: Who is Enny?

785
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 4: So it's it's z E N I J A R

786
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 4: D I N.

787
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 3: She's one of the founders of Boinggoing and a longtime

788
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: tech writer hero of mine. She was one of Brockman's clients,

789
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 3: and then she was very involved with Edge.

790
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 2: Are there any specifics about her experiences at the Billionaires

791
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: Dinners that are worth mentioning?

792
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 3: She is putting this together right now, and there are

793
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 3: so many allegations that she has great backup for but

794
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 3: that I don't want to bring up without that, you know,

795
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 3: without her research.

796
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that is going to be explosive. Yeah.

797
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, Have you ever felt like this might be dangerous

798
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 1: to speak out about these people?

799
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 4: I do.

800
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 3: I mean it's interesting because, you know, during the rec

801
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 3: Havana hearings, during Me too, I don't know if the

802
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 3: both of you thought, you know, oh now now we

803
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 3: can say whatever we want. You know, there's like a

804
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 3: short window where you could say, yeah, you know, this

805
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,439
Speaker 3: guy did this and this guy did that without fear

806
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 3: of reprisals. You know, I definitely you know, sitting here

807
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 3: I write out Beds too, and sitting here saying for

808
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 3: the La Times, sitting here saying that David Brooks is

809
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: like a bullshit artist. Yes, does not feel very collegial.

810
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 3: And also I feel like they don't want their work

811
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 3: questioned as much as they don't want their you know,

812
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 3: morality questioned. It would be their work and their errors

813
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 3: and their you know, John Searle wouldn't like that either,

814
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,919
Speaker 3: But so it's it is hard to question their work.

815
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 3: I will say, Stephen Pinker blocks me. A lot of

816
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 3: these people, who, by the way, are just free speech.

817
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 3: Many acts are. You don't get to block Zenny and me.

818
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 3: There's a huge number of the intellectual dark Web people

819
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 3: who block me.

820
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 2: Truly amazing, so pro free speech until it has to

821
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 2: do with anything related.

822
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 3: I know, And I mean obviously I'm not trolling Pinker.

823
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: I'm not calling him like ugly and.

824
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 4: Fat I call that.

825
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm trying to engage in, like, you know,

826
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 3: actual civil discoord.

827
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 4: Isn't that the whole purpose of.

828
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,479
Speaker 1: The Edge to begin, right, these two people who don't

829
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 1: agree having a conversation.

830
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: Yes, has anyone engaged with you on it? Like a sense?

831
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: Your piece came out.

832
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 3: A lot of people who had wondered what Edge was

833
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 3: because HarperCollins published the anthology every year that would ask

834
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 3: a quote big question, say today's leading thinkers answer this question.

835
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 3: And if any time around in the twenty tens or

836
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: the teens, you had a sense that, like there's this

837
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 3: new world of household names who are around, like they

838
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 3: get to opine on everything, and they you know, have

839
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 3: newsletters and podcasts and teaching posts at Harvard. He was

840
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 3: really part of making that world and being the gatekeeper

841
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 3: in that world. And so there are a lot of

842
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 3: male writers that wondered, you know why they where this

843
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 3: back door was. You know, I just keep thinking the

844
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 3: illuminati comparison never occurred to me, but yeah, something like

845
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 3: the Freemasons or some group, like how do you get

846
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 3: tapped into this?

847
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: Right?

848
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 3: And then they would start watching it at a distance

849
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 3: as one by one people had fraud issues, had abuse issues.

850
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 3: And then finally when Jeffrey Epstein, when it became clear

851
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 3: that Brockman was getting a lot of money from Jeffrey Epstein,

852
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 3: it was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense.

853
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 2: I understand the desire to get funding for your projects

854
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: and to get your books sold, like anyone would want

855
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 2: that in that position, to get you know, to be

856
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: in a part of this circle of highly respected people.

857
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 2: I mean, like it's very enticing and understandable until the

858
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 2: part yeah young girls are right.

859
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let's see, he got a cut. He got

860
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 3: twenty percent of my book sale, which again wasn't very much.

861
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 3: So I you know, I don't know what to say

862
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 3: about that. I guess I gave some of my money

863
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 3: to them or my labor, but otherwise I don't feel

864
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 3: very implicated because and Zenny says the same thing. You know,

865
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 3: we weren't the girls they were looking for. We weren't

866
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,439
Speaker 3: the droids they were looking for. Even Jenny was left

867
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 3: out of most of this. And you know, there were

868
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 3: just these kind of models around. I mean, you know,

869
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 3: I think a lot of cult leaders do that. And

870
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein would bring these women to parties, and obviously

871
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 3: they were on Lolita Island. So you know, Marvin Minsky

872
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 3: is one of the people that Virginia and Guifrey has

873
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 3: said had sex with her, has alleged had sex with

874
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 3: her or even raped her because she was underage. He's

875
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 3: now dead, but you know, so this group was getting

876
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 3: money from Epstein and introductions and possibly sex. There was

877
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 3: a Brockman wrote an email to another guy in it

878
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 3: who actually is a male whistle whistleblower in this group,

879
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 3: ev Ganey Marotzov. He's just a straight arrow, you know.

880
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 3: He like he just didn't see whatever was going on,

881
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 3: and he he got an invitation that he then put

882
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 3: on Twitter via email from John Brockman saying, why don't

883
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 3: you come over to Jeffrey Epstein's place. You know, that giant, giant,

884
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 3: zillion dollar mansion in New York City. Why don't you

885
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 3: come over and see the house and also meet some

886
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 3: of the girls he has here. They're really young. You

887
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 3: can get a massage, and he said, and I think

888
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 3: Prince Andrew will be there too.

889
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 4: Wow.

890
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 3: And yeah, and Evganey Morozov has written about this. He said,

891
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,280
Speaker 3: he didn't even answer, and ev Ganey's brilliant and there's

892
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: just no way he would even answer. But the men

893
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 3: have many more stories to tell, and they may be

894
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,439
Speaker 3: more worried because they were, they were more included, right, Yeah,

895
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 3: money and the thing, Yeah, they more to lose. Boggles Wow.

896
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I've been curious about Jeffrey Epstein's political ties

897
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 2: and who who in politics was involved with these things.

898
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 2: But I never knew that just like an academic that

899
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 2: we all respect and is highly regarded, would be a

900
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: part of this as well.

901
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 3: It just would never have And it's so obvious.

902
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: But it's just all about everyone's insecurity and pointing it

903
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: out is just.

904
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 3: It's too obvious.

905
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's all based off of I'm insecure, I

906
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: want to feel smart. I'm insecure, i want to feel

907
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: like I'm with the beautiful woman.

908
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 2: I'm going to do research about how we're smarter, and

909
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 2: it's just how smart and big and able to attract

910
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 2: young women.

911
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 3: I am, yes, yes, And you see, also these guys

912
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 3: getting really into their physical bodies and you know, oh my.

913
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: God, bio Hacking has muscles now with his shirt rolled up,

914
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, I'm a second hand embarrassment dying.

915
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 4: It's crazy, absolutely right.

916
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 3: And when guys like show up, I mean they're regular

917
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 3: seventy year old scientists, and then there's some seventy year

918
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 3: old scientists that look like, yeah, they've been doing some

919
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 3: some bulletproof coffee and some.

920
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, it's just and I'm insecure.

921
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: Everyone's insecure, but I'm not abusing people based off of it.

922
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we can acknowledge it, And I think that

923
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: is a big difference between That is one of the

924
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: issues with that type of thinking is like, vulnerability is bad.

925
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 2: Exactly anything I feel is bad, So I'm going to

926
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:39,959
Speaker 2: make up for instead of acknowledging it because that would

927
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: mean that I'm weak.

928
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 3: Yes, A long long time ago, I read some like

929
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 3: silly fifties wisdom that was give a smart girl a

930
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 3: ribbon have you ever heard this?

931
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 4: And give a pretty girl a book?

932
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 3: And I sort of felt like, I know this is

933
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 3: one of those like bie Cheese and she will love you. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

934
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 3: old I do right over that thing is. But I

935
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 3: feel like that's what this is. And I mean when

936
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 3: I hear about other cults, you know, the come on

937
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 3: to white women for Neo Nazi groups is usually you know,

938
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 3: you're the mother of Aryan children, and you know, she

939
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: feels so loved and you know, beautiful and desired by

940
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 3: all these people because of her whiteness. And Christian Piccollini

941
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 3: has written a lot about that that, Yeah, the bid

942
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 3: to women has been you know that they're beautiful and uh,

943
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 3: what's his name? The guy that was in the Moonies,

944
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 3: see Hassen, who I had on my show Trump Cast

945
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 3: a bunch of times. He you know, he said he

946
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 3: was nineteen and a couple of really pretty girls came

947
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 3: up to him and said, do you want to go

948
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 3: to our cool thing?

949
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 4: And it turned out to be the Moonies.

950
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 3: Like these so these like you're attractive when you thought

951
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 3: you weren't, or you're smart when you thought you were

952
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 3: just rich or good looking.

953
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 4: Right is that goes a long way?

954
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 2: Right, It's a long way. There are so many factors

955
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 2: involved that everybody needs to belong. We all need to

956
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 2: feel like we're a part of something, and often we're

957
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 2: you know, off the heels of some kind of major

958
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: life's bill perfectly. It's so funny. But then also there's

959
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: just like we all want to feel cool and important,

960
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 2: and there's a level of ego involved in almost every

961
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: story and it's and it's human. There's nothing wrong with that,

962
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 2: but that is what these kinds of groups pray upon.

963
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 3: Yes, it was exactly it for me. Yeah, I was

964
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,879
Speaker 3: at vulnerable time in my life. It wasn't a spiritual hole,

965
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 3: but I wanted money and I wanted to be like

966
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 3: those guys Clay Shirky and Chris Anderson. I thought it

967
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 3: really was like Faustian or something. It was like, I

968
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 3: want to have what they have. Yeah, I will go

969
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 3: to any lengths to get it. It didn't seem like

970
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 3: any lengths just to hire their agent, you know. And

971
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 3: the original promise was you will be rich and you

972
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 3: will be among the today's leading leading thinkers or thought

973
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 3: leaders or whatever you called them.

974
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 2: Right, he's al Pacino.

975
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 3: Well, I do feel like you are that either way.

976
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: So you're deaf, definitely on the cutting edge, and one

977
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: of the smartest people I've ever talked to.

978
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, that's so nice.

979
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm on the like in the intellectual

980
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 3: glitter web or something like. It's just like.

981
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: A part of that.

982
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 3: Yeah.

983
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 4: Really that's just form it.

984
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 3: I love it right now, honest you can start our

985
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 3: own university in Austin.

986
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 4: Self awareness is all you.

987
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 2: Need to join, Honestly, Honestly, I love that. I really

988
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 2: I do take such issue with the Joe Rogan's, the

989
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 2: Jordan Peterson's of the world, the Ben Shapiro's, Like I

990
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 2: really want there to be an answer to that movement

991
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 2: that makes room for all the things that we're talking about.

992
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 2: So listen, it starts here today.

993
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:45,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there are some wonderful women talking about

994
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 3: sorry I mean women, non men, and non white people

995
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:55,720
Speaker 3: talking about really interesting philosophical issues. Your podcast I mentioned

996
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 3: maintenance phase I think is great. You know, I know

997
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 3: the conspiratuality guys and some of the people they've had.

998
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 4: On that show who have harder one wisdom.

999
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 3: And less intellectual fraud associated with them. I mean, anyone

1000
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 3: can look at this list.

1001
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: And I like a point you made too, which is, like,

1002
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: you know, at middle aged we sometimes like, oh, we're

1003
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 1: just getting written out, and maybe it's just supposed to

1004
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: be that way. Maybe I'm not at that intellectual but

1005
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: then we're missing out on this knowledge that really smart

1006
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: people who aren't doing shitty things have.

1007
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really think you know, Rebecca Solment with men

1008
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 3: explained things to me was obviously onto something with man's plaining.

1009
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 3: And then there's also been, you know, a discussion of

1010
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 3: male mediocrity, and it is just poking at the work itself.

1011
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 3: Like for instance, when Les Moonvez who used to run CBS,

1012
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 3: was accused of and I believe officially found guilty of

1013
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 3: or at least journalistically found guilty of abusing and even

1014
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 3: raping some of his underlings. You know, they were like,

1015
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 3: this guy was so brilliant. He was the biggest genius.

1016
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 3: So I was like, you know what he made? Everybody

1017
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 3: loves Raymond, like.

1018
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 4: We can get bought Michaelangelo.

1019
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 3: Western culture will be follow you know, he might have

1020
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 3: made King of Queens also, And we're not even talking

1021
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 3: about making it and writing it, just greenlighting it right right. Wow.

1022
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 3: You know, if you kick the tires of many of

1023
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 3: these intellectual dark web men's work, it'll be meditating taking drugs,

1024
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,839
Speaker 3: like in Sam Harris's case, God bless him, like he.

1025
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,959
Speaker 4: Wants to take a lot of psychedelics. Great, but that.

1026
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 3: Doesn't make you an intellectual, and or we'd all get

1027
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 3: there faster. And he also, you know, it's islamophobic. He's done.

1028
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:51,439
Speaker 3: I mean, these are he is not producing Einstein quality work,

1029
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 3: and yet he's treated that way. And I think it's

1030
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 3: like asking ourselves, wait a second, this isn't that smart.

1031
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 3: If you saw a transcript of Brett Weinstein talking, would

1032
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 3: be like, this is a moron from TikTok.

1033
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I do think Sam Harris

1034
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 2: is smarter than a lot of the other people who

1035
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 2: are a part of that movement. And he did at

1036
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 2: least like remove himself from the identification with it because

1037
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:15,720
Speaker 2: he was like, this shit's gone crazy.

1038
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 3: I think he works sometimes with good people.

1039
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 4: He's reached out.

1040
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 3: He works with John cabot Zin and other sane Jack Cornfield,

1041
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 3: other sane meditators and Buddhists, and I do respect that.

1042
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 3: And he's also not what I call the ivermectin ivans.

1043
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 3: You know the world of people like Joe Rogan who

1044
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 3: believed that ivermectin was a cure after they believed hydroxychloroquin

1045
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 3: was that ivermectin the de wormer was a cure for it,

1046
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:43,839
Speaker 3: and I break a care for COVID. I bring this

1047
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 3: up because we've forgotten they are allowed to do that.

1048
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:49,399
Speaker 3: I mean, can you imagine you go on your show

1049
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 3: right now, you say and inject bleach into your veins,

1050
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 3: and you would be canceled tomorrow, like in one second,

1051
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,879
Speaker 3: and by the way, you should be. I would lead

1052
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 3: the way to say, take this off the air. It's dangerous. Yeah,

1053
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 3: And yet these guys are entertaining dangerous ideas on their

1054
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 3: show and no one calls them on it. Just no

1055
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 3: one fact checks, no one calls them on it, and

1056
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 3: then they go on and then they're at a party,

1057
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 3: and then Joe Rogan's still Joe Rogan.

1058
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 2: People call them on it, but people who don't have

1059
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 2: it as big of a rabid fan base and nearly

1060
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: as much reach, so it just like doesn't mean any Yeah,

1061
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 2: and twenty years.

1062
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: Will look back and people will be embarrassed.

1063
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 3: I wish people would call them idiots, like, instead of

1064
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 3: calling them dangerous or not liberal enough or whatever. I

1065
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 3: just wish they would be like, this is idiosy because

1066
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 3: sometimes listening to Alex Jones in court, I'm just like,

1067
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 3: just because you have a loud as hell, husky voice

1068
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you're interesting or even intellectually aggressive in

1069
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 3: a cool way.

1070
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 2: You know, no one considers him an intellectual, right, I

1071
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 2: mean that's not true.

1072
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 3: But I think he's I think he's the working man's intellectual.

1073
00:56:58,640 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 4: Mean, he's low end.

1074
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 3: He's low end QAnon, and there is high end QAnon,

1075
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 3: and I really don't draw a huge distinction between them.

1076
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 3: I think there's like tons of conspiracy thinking, especially in

1077
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 3: Sam Harris's work on islamsay, and the Sharia panic. You

1078
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 3: know that Islamic law was coming to the US, or

1079
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 3: some ideas about the squad or AOC. I mean, those

1080
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 3: things get so twisted. They're not quite lizard people. I admit,

1081
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 3: they don't go to the depths of Vale Jones, but

1082
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 3: they're on a continuum.

1083
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so interesting. There's like this faction that like

1084
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 2: doesn't actually care about science, which is kind of the

1085
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 2: Joe Rogans and the Alex jones is. And then there

1086
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 2: are the people who claim to care deeply about science,

1087
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 2: but maybe get so fixated on what the idea of

1088
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 2: like rational science is that they lose sight of the

1089
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 2: bigger picture altogether.

1090
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right, and they also the misuse

1091
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 3: of the word science. I mean, I think, you know,

1092
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 3: it's got a lot I was gonna say a little corrupted,

1093
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 3: but a lot corrupted. I mean, if you think about

1094
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 3: the ways that a lot of people say they're doing science,

1095
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 3: not just Brockman, I mean scientology, Christian science. Keith Ridieri

1096
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 3: talked a lot about how he had a technology of

1097
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 3: something science I can't remember exactly, but you know, and

1098
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 3: that he had a zillion IQ so that meant that

1099
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 3: he could do you know, compound interest in his head.

1100
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 4: And none of that was true.

1101
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 3: And also it can be because the person who claims

1102
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 3: he's dealing in science is incontrovertible, you know, often doesn't

1103
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 3: produce the studies he's talking about, gets to claim, like

1104
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 3: Charles Murray that oh, this is just the science that

1105
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 3: proves that black people are intellectually inferior to white people.

1106
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 3: It's just science. Look, here's my perfect science. But that

1107
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 3: idea can excuse a lot, can be a fig leaf

1108
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 3: for a tons of abuse and fraud, right, and intellectual fraud,

1109
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 3: meaning check out those studies, you know, when these dartmouth

1110
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 3: guys came down for their I don't know if you

1111
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 3: followed this, but for their literal rape circle. They're two

1112
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 3: professors in the social sciences, I think evolutionary psychologist recently.

1113
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 4: This was like three or four years ago.

1114
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 3: And I'm pretty sure Robbie Kaplan, who's representing Egene Carroll

1115
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 3: and represented a lot of women in these high profile cases.

1116
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure she represented at least one of them.

1117
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 3: But so I was like, Wow, what are these this

1118
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 3: guy's work, because I always want to try to see

1119
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 3: if there's if when there's fraud and abuse, there's also

1120
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 3: bad ideology, or when there's bad ideology and abuse, there's

1121
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 3: also fraud. And so I was like, I bet their

1122
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 3: work is not on you know, the discovery of Muon's

1123
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 3: the new particle in the universe, or working toward a

1124
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 3: better vaccine from monkey pocks, like helping people, you know,

1125
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 3: trying to make solar air conditioners, you know, stuff like that. No,

1126
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 3: of course, their work is on why anarexia is great

1127
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 3: because men love it or whatever. I mean, I'm obviously

1128
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 3: it's reductive, But why do you start that study? Yeah,

1129
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 3: you know, why do you start that study at all?

1130
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 3: There's a lot of science that needs to be done

1131
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 3: in the world, not to mention. I think some methodology queen,

1132
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 3: as Michael Hotts calls himself, could probably look into these

1133
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,479
Speaker 3: studies and say that it's unsound. I mean, I can't

1134
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 3: jump to that, but you know, when it just involves

1135
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 3: interviewing a bunch of young women who are very thin,

1136
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 3: then it's not totally clear that you're doing science. And

1137
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 3: when you look into when you hear they're doing science,

1138
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 3: you think of pages and pages of like John Nash

1139
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 3: numbers that we could never understand a lot of times

1140
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 3: they're doing you know, they seem to be doing surveys.

1141
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 3: In Sam Harris's case, he does a lot of introspection

1142
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 3: to see how.

1143
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 4: His own mind works.

1144
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 3: I mean, these are not especially kind of erudite forms

1145
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 3: of study.

1146
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 2: Right, I'm very pro science, and this kind of thing

1147
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 2: really irks me because it gives a whole big group

1148
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 2: of people that I have talked to and that I

1149
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 2: know in my life reason to be like, well, you

1150
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 2: can every study says something different, and you can kind

1151
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 2: of bend the science. We can make any studies say

1152
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 2: what we wanted to say. And I'm like, well, but

1153
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 2: that's not good science. But that is just too like

1154
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 2: complicated for the average person to like stop and think

1155
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 2: about and assess. So it just muddies the entire field.

1156
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 2: I think.

1157
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 3: You know, Charles Murray is an easy target. Who wrote

1158
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 3: the Bell curve again, you know, trying to make claims

1159
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 3: about IQ's and there being some racial corel it to them,

1160
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 3: And why did he do that study and why has

1161
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 3: he been dining out on it for what is it

1162
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 3: now thirty years and getting banned places and taking that

1163
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 3: seriously and then being a martyr for free speech. These

1164
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 3: good scientific brands, we have a shit ton of problems

1165
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 3: to solve. Yeah, you know, there's so many cool things

1166
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 3: to do with renewables that I just would be so

1167
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 3: happy to have good minds on. Yeah, and instead they're studying,

1168
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 3: you know, why some races are dumber? Like yeah, what

1169
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 3: what's the whay? Yeah, what's the point? Right, even as

1170
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 3: it's repeatedly debunked, But even leaving that aside, I thought

1171
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 3: they were supposed to be.

1172
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 4: Scientists and they're going in with all.

1173
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 3: This ideology, no bias here, Ugh, yeah, I mean, and

1174
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 3: you pull the thread of this. I'm sure you all

1175
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 3: have heard some of maintenance phase. They analyze a diet

1176
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 3: almost every week. So Keto paleo, you know, a popular diet,

1177
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 3: and so often the science is grounded this quote. Science

1178
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 3: is grounded in some kind of imperialist project to get

1179
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 3: as much work as possible out of colonial people in

1180
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 3: return for as little food as possible. Or eugenics. The

1181
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 3: relationship between paleo and eugenics is really tight. They really

1182
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 3: spell it out. I mean you can pull any thread, right,

1183
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 3: You know, you could look at all these things to

1184
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 3: do with women, slimness, speed given for wells, back to

1185
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 3: dieting all this relationship advice from.

1186
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:05,440
Speaker 4: The rules too.

1187
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:07,560
Speaker 3: You have to be more meek in your marriage. You

1188
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 3: know where does all that come from? And that was

1189
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 3: supposedly like proven techniques. Right, As I say, you can

1190
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 3: pull any thread and it can lead you to sometimes

1191
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 3: very deeply concerning ideology.

1192
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 2: Right, do you have like a main takeaway here? How

1193
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 2: would you kind of synthesize this experience?

1194
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 3: Well, one thing, I guess I love a remedy, I

1195
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 3: love a solution, and I think for now we need

1196
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 3: to sideline most of the Edgemen from kind of the

1197
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 3: quote conversation. I think they've disqualified themselves, and I think

1198
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 3: that the most important mistake was taking most of them,

1199
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 3: not all of them, but most of them. For great intellectuals,

1200
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 3: for you know, Einstein's and Newtons of our time, they

1201
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 3: just aren't. That's also where it hurts the most, because

1202
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 3: that's the thing they've been telling themselves for so long.

1203
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 3: It's the why Epstein gets to say what does this

1204
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 3: have to do with pussy because other people at the

1205
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 3: table consider him to have the quote mind of a physicist.

1206
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 3: As someone said, they are telling themselves just you know,

1207
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 3: watch one thing debunked after another.

1208
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 4: You know, Rupert Schldrake, you mentioned.

1209
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 3: Joan Alaia was you know, guilty of forging quotes by

1210
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 3: Bob Dylan. A lot of people have heard of Naomi

1211
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 3: Wolfe's kind of downfall, and she's banned from Twitter because

1212
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 3: her last book was you know, found to have misread

1213
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 3: a lot of evidence. But these are so many of

1214
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 3: these men are doing kind of deeply flawed research and

1215
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 3: calling themselves swaggering outlaws. And I think reaching pointing to

1216
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,560
Speaker 3: the flaws is one thing, the flaws in their actual research.

1217
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:59,120
Speaker 3: One two noting that the ideology gets really dark and

1218
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 3: is something that I I would call black pilled in

1219
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 3: many cases, which is you know, you know what red

1220
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 3: pilled is it's going to the Trump right. Then there's

1221
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 3: this thing now called dark Maga which edges into eugenics, Nazism,

1222
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 3: stuff like that, and then abuse, and then just.

1223
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 4: Look through the list.

1224
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 3: I'm just shy of saying do your own research. I

1225
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 3: won't say that, But look through the list of the

1226
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 3: people we've mentioned, the people in my piece maybe you

1227
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 3: can link to it in the show notes, and the

1228
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 3: people on the Edge site, and just one after another,

1229
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 3: you will be amazed at how many of them. John Cearrel,

1230
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 3: after I met him and met him with that very

1231
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 3: young woman, was removed from his position at Berkeley for

1232
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 3: it's sexually abusing and harassing women and showing them porn.

1233
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 3: These are his students, and he'd been doing it for decades. Wow,

1234
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 3: and you know I haven't even named all the cases.

1235
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 3: You know, It's like I can't think of any other

1236
01:05:55,320 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 3: organization that had built up defenses of money and the

1237
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 3: sheen of intellectual achievement so much that no one asked,

1238
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 3: you know, what's going on with the fraud, the abuse

1239
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 3: and the bad ideology here right right.

1240
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 2: I can't speak to Daniel Conneman's character, but I think

1241
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 2: he's considered someone who's done genuinely really great work in

1242
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 2: his field. It sucks for the Daniel Connemans of that

1243
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 2: group who are legitimate.

1244
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 3: As I say about Lisa Randall is an incredible physicist

1245
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 3: who's worked on black holes.

1246
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 4: Is great.

1247
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:29,360
Speaker 3: Frank Wilchick won the Nobel Prize.

1248
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 4: He blurged my book.

1249
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 3: He's an incredibly interesting physicist. He has a book called

1250
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 3: I think it's called The Just something like the Lightness

1251
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 3: of Being about entropy. It's amazing Dan Conneman, as you mentioned,

1252
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 3: I mean every page of his books I find riveting

1253
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 3: and fascinating and even applicable.

1254
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 4: You know, he's he's just amazing.

1255
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 3: There of Ganny Maratzov I said before as a wonderful

1256
01:06:56,040 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 3: critic of big tech. All of those people and more,

1257
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 3: and I do name more in the piece. You can

1258
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 3: be a member of this. You can even contribute to edge.

1259
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 3: And I'm speaking for myself as well as them by

1260
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:11,919
Speaker 3: being just you know, these guys are boy scouts. They're

1261
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 3: like people that don't notice. You know, there are people

1262
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 3: in a fraternity that might have like a group of

1263
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 3: marauding like drunks who date rape people, and then like

1264
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:22,480
Speaker 3: everyone in the outside is like I just like to

1265
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 3: hang out with guys sometimes light leave early when it

1266
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 3: gets a little crazy at night. Yeah, and that's how

1267
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 3: it felt. That's how a lot of the guys in

1268
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:33,440
Speaker 3: EDGE felt. And I don't want to you know, I

1269
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 3: don't want to paint with too broad a brush here. Yeah,

1270
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 3: but in all I think the thing is rotten to

1271
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 3: the core with with Epstein money and Epstein complicity. Yeah.

1272
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there are people in next many groups

1273
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 2: who had just a totally fine experience because they weren't

1274
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 2: in that inner circle. And that inner circle is where

1275
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 2: the harm is. But the problem is the whole, you know,

1276
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 2: the whole, the top down, the foundation is rotten.

1277
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean I think Matthew Rems, who I've had

1278
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 3: on my recent podcast, this is critical and also you

1279
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 3: know who does the Conspiratuality podcast, he calls this like

1280
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 3: the I Got mine school of like you know, kind

1281
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 3: of complicity, which is like look, Rockman made me some money,

1282
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 3: or like that yoga teacher was really great for me.

1283
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 3: I don't care if they did this other thing. I

1284
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 3: had no idea. I had no idea about Edge, but

1285
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,679
Speaker 3: it is still important to speak out when you find out,

1286
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:28,559
Speaker 3: yea for other people right, you know, right, And so

1287
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:32,479
Speaker 3: the I got mine thing is is just it's almost

1288
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 3: crueler than being just simply blind like I'm sure Daniel

1289
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 3: Conman was.

1290
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 4: He's just doing his work. He's not thinking about this.

1291
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know when you find out later and

1292
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 3: just say like, oh, well, it's you know, I made

1293
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:45,640
Speaker 3: some money here. And that's what a lot of the

1294
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:48,920
Speaker 3: men at Edge have done is just you know, try

1295
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 3: to ignore it and try to make sure that it

1296
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 3: doesn't ruin.

1297
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 4: Their careers, you know, because of these.

1298
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 3: Things are cancelable, and people are losing their jobs for

1299
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:00,680
Speaker 3: their association with Epstein. I mentioned Joey Edo and no

1300
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:03,680
Speaker 3: one wants to have that happen. Yeah, I'd love to

1301
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 3: hear Stephen Pinker speak up. I'd love to hear Sam

1302
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 3: Harris speak up. I would love to and honestly, Stephen Pinker,

1303
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:13,000
Speaker 3: if you're listening, I know you block me, and I

1304
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:17,200
Speaker 3: respect everyone making their cho their choices on Twitter hygiene.

1305
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 3: At the same time, you must have some interesting things

1306
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:23,960
Speaker 3: to say about what you saw and understood about on

1307
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,680
Speaker 3: these questions of intellectual honesty and where the money was

1308
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:30,760
Speaker 3: coming from at Edge, and if you write it or

1309
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:33,599
Speaker 3: say it anywhere I will be all ears.

1310
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:37,320
Speaker 2: Maybe we should tweet at him, Yeah, trust me listen. Yeah,

1311
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 2: I know, I wonder this. It'll be really interesting to

1312
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:44,599
Speaker 2: see who listens to this. Let's stick to you awesome. Well,

1313
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:46,160
Speaker 2: thank you, Virginia, You're awesome.

1314
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 3: It's so great to talk to you. I love this podcast.

1315
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 3: I love what you're doing. It's a really great time

1316
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 3: to think about how these communities form and how we

1317
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 3: all can come under these influences that can set us

1318
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 3: back and be so dangerous, but they also are such

1319
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 3: a stress test. You know, when you see the resilience

1320
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:08,800
Speaker 3: of you two, when you see the resilience of the

1321
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:12,720
Speaker 3: conspiratuality guys and so many others, it almost makes it

1322
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 3: seem like this was just such a rich education. So anyway,

1323
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 3: I want to commend you on such a great show.

1324
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much, thank god, Wow, thank you?

1325
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1326
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:22,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1327
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:26,040
Speaker 2: Well, where can people find you and your work?

1328
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 3: I am really into my substack, which I've had for

1329
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 3: a year and a half and it contains pretty much

1330
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 3: all my work. A lot of it is free. It

1331
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:40,679
Speaker 3: is Virginia Heffernan dot substack dot com, Virginia Heffernan dot

1332
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 3: substack dot com. I'm also in Wired just almost all

1333
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,799
Speaker 3: the time. I write a column and I write features.

1334
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:49,800
Speaker 3: The most recent one is about that book The Dawn

1335
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 3: of Everything, which is another book with a great man

1336
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 3: sort of great man background, but that I ended up

1337
01:10:56,240 --> 01:11:02,680
Speaker 3: absolutely loving and found it so extraordinarily rich. My imagination

1338
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 3: was just so fired by this book, The Dawn of Everything.

1339
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:08,640
Speaker 3: So I'm going to promote that also amazing act i'st it.

1340
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:10,960
Speaker 2: My boyfriend loves him. I think David Graeber.

1341
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 3: Oh, David Graper, the anarchist. Yeah, he died in twenty twenty,

1342
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 3: possibly of COVID, but his I did a profile of

1343
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:22,879
Speaker 3: his co author, David Wengro, who's an archaeologist and essentially

1344
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:25,439
Speaker 3: like pulls all the pins out of everything we think

1345
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 3: we know about early humans. Okay, feminist, it's a feminist book.

1346
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:34,519
Speaker 3: It's a really interesting book. It turns out all of

1347
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 3: evolutionary psychology thumbs down.

1348
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:41,760
Speaker 2: Wow, so interesting. Okay, Don, I'm on your reading list. Awesome, Well,

1349
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 2: thanks again so much for coming on. This has been

1350
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 2: great and yeah, have a wonderful What time is it

1351
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:47,680
Speaker 2: their day?

1352
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:49,080
Speaker 3: Thank you?

1353
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,800
Speaker 2: Okay, Megan, Yes, so tell me what do you think

1354
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:54,360
Speaker 2: would you join Edge?

1355
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 1: Yes, one hundred and millions percent.

1356
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:02,680
Speaker 2: Millions Tell me?

1357
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 4: Why?

1358
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:04,000
Speaker 2: Tell me why? Oh?

1359
01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 1: I would just love to be privy to all of

1360
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: these weird people's information. I would feel special. Yeah, I

1361
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: would love it. I want to go where was it?

1362
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 3: Sweden?

1363
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 1: Where do they go?

1364
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,120
Speaker 3: Switzerland? Norway? Whatever? I would love it.

1365
01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 2: I'd love all of it. Just sign me up. Yeah,

1366
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 2: I mean same, Yeah, we knew this. Are you kidding me?

1367
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 2: Validation by academic men like I'm coming in my pants

1368
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 2: right now. Yeah, it's like the story literally my whole life.

1369
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 4: Baby.

1370
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 2: No, yeah, I definitely would joint, but but fortunately now

1371
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 2: we won't.

1372
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1373
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:55,840
Speaker 1: Also unfortunately no, fortunately, fortunately we haven't been asked, Thank god.

1374
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, although it would be really cool to have conversations

1375
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:01,680
Speaker 2: with some of them people, not all of them, but

1376
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 2: some of them.

1377
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think what would happen with you is you

1378
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:07,040
Speaker 1: would be like, Okay, I'm going to join just to

1379
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 1: like to study, and then you would like accidentally become

1380
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:13,640
Speaker 1: really sucked in.

1381
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:18,799
Speaker 2: So it's not a thing anymore and it's all online,

1382
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:19,680
Speaker 2: but that doesn't.

1383
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:20,639
Speaker 4: Mean that.

1384
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:22,799
Speaker 3: All is well.

1385
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:25,639
Speaker 2: I don't know. We'll see more. Will more shall be revealed?

1386
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 4: Yes?

1387
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:27,360
Speaker 3: It shall. Well.

1388
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:30,639
Speaker 1: We loved having you here for another week with us.

1389
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 1: Can't wait to see you again next time. As always,

1390
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flags.

1391
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me.

1392
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 1: Bye bye.

1393
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1394
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:52,720
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1395
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:54,240
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1396
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:56,599
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1397
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:59,640
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1398
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:03,599
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cultpod, or on TikTok at trust

1399
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 1: Me Cult Podcast.

1400
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:08,480
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1401
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:11,840
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham

1402
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1403
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.