Speaker 1: Within the close knit world of global gastronomy. Red Zeppy
Speaker 1: is a figure whose influence might be compared to that
Speaker 1: of David Bowie's and music in the nineteen seventies, or
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs in technology in the nineteen eighties, or Beyonce's now.
Speaker 1: He is the chef behind Noma, a restaurant in Copenhagen
Speaker 1: that has, for those who follow and chronicle these things,
Speaker 1: changed the way people think about food. Writers have a
Speaker 1: habit of referring to Noma as the best restaurant on
Speaker 1: earth that may or may not make Red Deppi, by
Speaker 1: hyperbolic extension, the greatest chef alive. D Zeppi was expected
Speaker 1: to fall in line with his mentors and cook French classics,
Speaker 1: and for a while he did. Soon, though, red Zeppi
Speaker 1: had the epiphany that his food should not only be
Speaker 1: made with, but entirely shaped by what he found in
Speaker 1: the forest, on the beach and in the hands of
Speaker 1: local farmers. In practice, this meant that berries ripe for
Speaker 1: a mere two weeks a year, implucked by a Swedish
Speaker 1: farmer uninterested in selling them, were more luxurious than imported caviar.
Speaker 1: He served them in a bowl with minimal adornment. He
Speaker 1: made teroar the soil, the climate, and the land that
Speaker 1: shaped the flavor of the plant and animal that eats it.
Speaker 1: More than jargon, he made it the entire point of
Speaker 1: his cuisine. That was an excerpt from the book Hungry, Eating,
Speaker 1: Road Tripping, and Risking it All with the Greatest Chef
Speaker 1: in the World. It was written by my friend, author
Speaker 1: and Esquire Food and Drink editor Jeff Gordineer. Jeff is
Speaker 1: one of my favorite food writers. He's really smart, and
Speaker 1: he's a really engaged listener. In other words, he's a
Speaker 1: great writer because he's a great observer. So when he
Speaker 1: decided to turn his attention to Renee red ZEPPI I
Speaker 1: knew it would be a worthwhile read. We started today's
Speaker 1: episode with that excerpt to provide some context about red
Speaker 1: Zeppy and the so called Nordic food movement. If you're
Speaker 1: a food person, almost certainly you're aware of his influence,
Speaker 1: but if you're not understanding the movement that he helped
Speaker 1: create will contextualize a style of food from aesthetic to
Speaker 1: ethos that has permeated fine dining kitchens, the minds of
Speaker 1: impressionable chefs, and also their Instagram feeds for more than
Speaker 1: a decade, and now on the other side of the
Speaker 1: laim and influence, noma's alumni are distinguished brigade into themselves,
Speaker 1: a gaggle of successful independent restaurateurs and food professionals who
Speaker 1: were born of this movement and in some cases, as
Speaker 1: with David Zilberg, gone on to lead his own siloed movement, or,
Speaker 1: in the case of Matt Orlando, gone on to open
Speaker 1: an acclaimed restaurant of their own. We'll hear from both
Speaker 1: of these gentlemen today. But whether or not the conversation
Speaker 1: of New Nordic is a belabored one isn't really a question. Really,
Speaker 1: the question is what do we call the movement that
Speaker 1: spawned from the New Nordic food movement Today? On point
Speaker 1: of origin, it's the new New Nordic. But before we
Speaker 1: we talked about this moniker of New Nordic, I want
Speaker 1: to back up and give some context of people who
Speaker 1: might not know what it is that we're talking about.
Speaker 1: So can you just tell people at the onset of
Speaker 1: the so called New Nordic cuisine what it is and
Speaker 1: why it was characterized that way? Well, New Nordic Cuisine
Speaker 1: when it was first kind of conceptualized. Was a kind
Speaker 1: of a mantra or should actually manifesto that a bunch
Speaker 1: of chefs from Scandinavia came up with, basically saying that
Speaker 1: there were going to stop looking south for inspiration and
Speaker 1: they were going to start looking inwards basically what was
Speaker 1: around them and why that concept in itself is not
Speaker 1: new in the cooking world at that moment in time.
Speaker 1: The idea of actually cooking from the ingredients that existed
Speaker 1: in Scandinavia was very foreign even to most of the
Speaker 1: chefs cookie in Scandinavia at the time. You might hear
Speaker 1: the word manifesto tossed around. It's less weighty than it sounds,
Speaker 1: but basically it was a living document conceived in two
Speaker 1: thousand and four when twelve Nordic chefs got together and
Speaker 1: signed a sort of declaration of independence for regional food.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go through all the tenants, but
Speaker 1: it basically covers stuff like purity, regionality and seasonality. I mean,
Speaker 1: when I first moved to Denmark in two thousand five,
Speaker 1: every fine dining restaurant was an Italian or fential restaurant,
Speaker 1: and all inspiration was coming from Italy. France and Spain,
Speaker 1: and so the idea of having a restaurant dead was
Speaker 1: only using ingredients from Scandinavia. People thought we were crazy.
Speaker 1: That's Matt Orlando. He is a prominent chef, an owner
Speaker 1: of a mass restaurant in Copenhagen and also brought in
Speaker 1: and build a brewery which is just a few steps
Speaker 1: away from the restaurant. Orlando started at Noma in two
Speaker 1: thousand five, just a year after it opened, so in
Speaker 1: other words, before it was Noma. Here he is describing
Speaker 1: the experimental vibe of the early days were crazy. I
Speaker 1: mean I started at Noma about a year after they opened,
Speaker 1: so it was very new, very experimental, not only in
Speaker 1: the way we were cooking, but just the ideology of
Speaker 1: in the direction we were trying to go. It was
Speaker 1: a very exciting time. It was we were in uncharged
Speaker 1: waters constantly, and at that moment in time when I
Speaker 1: got there, people were still kind of making fun of
Speaker 1: what was happening at moment that time. I mean to
Speaker 1: put it in context, when I went to Denmark in
Speaker 1: two thousand five, at the very beginning of this whole
Speaker 1: kind of movement, I mean, I felt like I stepped
Speaker 1: into a a wonderland ingredients stuff I had never worked before,
Speaker 1: stuff stuff that now is quite commonplace because this whole
Speaker 1: movement has really put a lot of ingredients that people
Speaker 1: had overlooked or thought as not really interesting into the
Speaker 1: limelight and now they're quite sought after. I had come
Speaker 1: from the background where you know, manipulating ingredients into something
Speaker 1: was kind of always the goal, whereas there was so
Speaker 1: much respect for the ingredients that we were we were
Speaker 1: using at the time at Doma, and it was this
Speaker 1: really natural way of cooking, kind of letting the ingredients
Speaker 1: guide you as opposed to taking an ingredient and manipulating.
Speaker 1: It was just a really big taught to be in
Speaker 1: Scandinadia in those those first few years. One of the
Speaker 1: things that stuck with me from my talk with Matt
Speaker 1: is how the movement transformed not just fine dining but
Speaker 1: also the entire food system in Denmark. And so when
Speaker 1: I put the mask, I started approaching a lot of
Speaker 1: our farmers saying a why can't we grow this or
Speaker 1: why can't we grow this? And over the last six
Speaker 1: years we have been able to start growing things in
Speaker 1: the capacity that we can use them at the restaurant.
Speaker 1: We have developed vegetables. An eight plant that's growing in
Speaker 1: Scandinavia is going to say it's way different than an
Speaker 1: eight plant growing in Italy. You can't grow the same
Speaker 1: species of a plant that you can Italy. You have
Speaker 1: to find one that's a bit more adapted to the cold,
Speaker 1: can handle temperature, swings stuff. So over the last years
Speaker 1: we've been finding the particular species of different vegetables that
Speaker 1: will thrive in this environment, and we're growing with our
Speaker 1: farmers amazing cucumbers, tomatoes, egg plants, all this stuff. And
Speaker 1: now that's catching on, and now that's becoming part of
Speaker 1: Nordic cuisine, which before, if you ever put a tomato
Speaker 1: on the menu, you would have been strung up and
Speaker 1: it was crazy and just just ridiculed by people. So
Speaker 1: it's evolved a lot in that sense in what ingredients
Speaker 1: are acceptable within the cuisine. Now. The chefs that contributed
Speaker 1: to this manifesto really made a commitment to not only
Speaker 1: finding these ingredients and using them, but more importantly, really
Speaker 1: supporting the farmers and helping them to get these ingredients
Speaker 1: to the restaurants. And you know, when I look back
Speaker 1: on it now and I look at all the there's
Speaker 1: so many farms around Copenhagen that up until this massive
Speaker 1: restaurant movement and the spotlight of Copenhagen. Up until then,
Speaker 1: these farms they were selling to big co ops and
Speaker 1: grocery stores, and they were producing amazing vegetables, but they
Speaker 1: were producing them on a bigger scale, and the people
Speaker 1: that were consuming them didn't really have a whole lot
Speaker 1: of respect for what these farms were doing. If you
Speaker 1: look at the majority of those farms now, they only
Speaker 1: produce for restaurants. And that's how big of a switch
Speaker 1: it's been. They only produced for restaurants, and they only
Speaker 1: produced for restaurants that really respect the ingredients that they're producing.
Speaker 1: So I think it was it was a massive commitment
Speaker 1: from this this group of chefs that are beginning to
Speaker 1: really embrace this because they, I mean, this was not
Speaker 1: the easy way to go about cooking at all. At
Speaker 1: what point at Noma in your tenure there did you
Speaker 1: realize this restaurant that people were making fun of in
Speaker 1: the early days was actually at the cross section of
Speaker 1: the most important international food movement that was happening. I
Speaker 1: realized that the day I stepped in the door there,
Speaker 1: my world was flipped upside down, and I just became
Speaker 1: completely obsessed with the process of cooking, in the science
Speaker 1: behind it into a molecular level. And somewhere along the line, obviously, Lee,
Speaker 1: what's new is destined to become old. And now we
Speaker 1: find ourselves, as you said, fourteen years down the line,
Speaker 1: and yet we're still talking about New Nordic cuisine, and
Speaker 1: other chefs and alumni like yourself have gone on to
Speaker 1: make their own names and really deep impressions in the
Speaker 1: global restaurant culture as well. So how are you grappling
Speaker 1: with the nomenclature of new Nordic cuisine and light of
Speaker 1: the fact that we're moving onto our almost second decade
Speaker 1: of this. If you look at the religious background of
Speaker 1: this part of the world, it's primarily Protestant, and in
Speaker 1: the Protestant religion, food is not something to be enjoyed.
Speaker 1: Food is a thing of substance. So there has never
Speaker 1: been this deep history of food because food has never
Speaker 1: been a priority in this region of the world in
Speaker 1: regards to enjoyment like it is in France and Spain
Speaker 1: and Italy and stuff like that. So this way of
Speaker 1: thinking in this region of the world is new, and
Speaker 1: so that new part of the title has had a
Speaker 1: place at a certain moment in time. And I get
Speaker 1: asked often like why how do you think Nordic cuisine
Speaker 1: has been able to retain its time at the top
Speaker 1: of influential cuisines in the world. And the answer is simple,
Speaker 1: is that, unlike other cuisines, because we don't have this
Speaker 1: like really like rich food history here, we don't have
Speaker 1: rules that we have to follow culturally, and so the
Speaker 1: cuisine itself keeps evolving. And if I look at how
Speaker 1: people were cooking here in two thousand five, and then
Speaker 1: look at how the next generation of chefs are cooking
Speaker 1: now in Scandinavia, I mean it's a different thing completely.
Speaker 1: And there are things that were important then that aren't
Speaker 1: important now, and they were rules set out by this
Speaker 1: manifesto that are become obsolete. And this whole next generation
Speaker 1: of chefs coming through have really challenged what Nordic cuisine
Speaker 1: is because you have so many foreigners coming to this
Speaker 1: region of the world to cook, and the majority of
Speaker 1: the people running the restaurants in Copenhagen are not from here.
Speaker 1: The global influence of the Nordic food movement can't be
Speaker 1: overstated because so many chefs themselves are the ones that
Speaker 1: are constantly reinforcing its importance and their own lives and
Speaker 1: in their own careers and point of origin. Episode two,
Speaker 1: we heard Geesely Grimson from Salt Work in Iceland saying
Speaker 1: this very thing, but basically the new Nordic food scene,
Speaker 1: which is brought to the world by many people in Scandinavia,
Speaker 1: but most notably probably renerand Zappi and the team at Noma.
Speaker 1: It kind of opened the eyes of many Icelandic chefs
Speaker 1: too to be proud of what is surrounding us. So
Speaker 1: I mean, I can say I started working in the
Speaker 1: restaurant industry about like tann or eleven years ago, and
Speaker 1: then people wouldn't be using seaweed that is growing around.
Speaker 1: They wouldn't be kind of really they would be more
Speaker 1: proud to use kind of black truffles from Italy or
Speaker 1: or or these kind of like Italian parmesanos or this
Speaker 1: like proshut cut ham and all that, because nobody kind
Speaker 1: of was super proud of Icelandic food traditions. And in
Speaker 1: episode eleven, we heard chef Michael alec Debi talking about
Speaker 1: how it was the power of the story that read
Speaker 1: Zeppi and Noma were able to help craft that made
Speaker 1: it so influential. In other words, not just amplifying the
Speaker 1: influence of the food itself, but also even how we
Speaker 1: talk about the food um And what I've learned from
Speaker 1: a lot of the chefs are the stories they tell.
Speaker 1: They get to tell the story of their cuisine, of
Speaker 1: their food, of their people through the art that they
Speaker 1: have and through the art that the exhibit. Even chefs
Speaker 1: that I didn't work with, like Renewed Zeppi and alex
Speaker 1: Atala and Massimos Botura, how their approach towards their cuisine
Speaker 1: have changed the world's perception. For our Reneed, no one
Speaker 1: looked at Scandinavian food as you know, anything more than
Speaker 1: potatoes and you know, carrots, And now the Northern cuisine
Speaker 1: is being revered and it's because of that representation and
Speaker 1: the stories that are told behind the the people and
Speaker 1: the tradition that was Matt Orlando, chef and owner at
Speaker 1: a mass and brought in and build brewery in Copenhagen.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to point of origin. Today. Our special guest
Speaker 1: is Chef David Zilberg, who is the fermentation guru at
Speaker 1: Noma or more formally known as the Director of Fermentation
Speaker 1: at NOMA. He is also the author of the essential
Speaker 1: book on fermentation called The Nope But Guide to Fermentation,
Speaker 1: and we are pleased to have him join us today. David,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. On point of origin.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me of course here. Of course,
Speaker 1: of course I ended up in Copenhagen because I was fascinated,
Speaker 1: like I think many people are in the world of
Speaker 1: food about restaurant Noma. So I shot off a little
Speaker 1: to Denmark and they snatched me up. That was in
Speaker 1: two thousand and four team in the spring. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: worked in the main kitchen for about a year and
Speaker 1: that was very much a shock coming from my little
Speaker 1: provincial country of Canada to the big leagues of you know,
Speaker 1: European mission Star fifty best less restaurants. Let's stuck with
Speaker 1: him and get my head down and tried to work hard.
Speaker 1: And about a year into my time, they're, um, you know,
Speaker 1: Rene and Dan Drew studio head chefs set me down
Speaker 1: and said, you know, times for me and they wanted
Speaker 1: me ton't start working at From addition that that's kind
Speaker 1: of a semi position. When David Zilber reached out to
Speaker 1: Noma in two thousand fourteen, Noma was already very much
Speaker 1: a thing. Part of it's and enduring influence then and
Speaker 1: even now has been the team's ability to attract and
Speaker 1: retain talent. Like Matt Orlando said, most of the folks
Speaker 1: in Noma's kitchen aren't from Denmark. That can be credited
Speaker 1: in part to red Zeppy's investment in R and D.
Speaker 1: After a year and a half at Noma, Silber was
Speaker 1: promoted and now holds the position of Director of Fermentation,
Speaker 1: which is one of the most distinguished in the field.
Speaker 1: I've always been a really nerdy guy, you know, like
Speaker 1: I never went to university. I barely scraped through high school.
Speaker 1: But in my own private life, you know, I always
Speaker 1: have this thirst phenology, lay too much time on Wikipedia
Speaker 1: or you know, just picking up science non fictions up
Speaker 1: on my own. And that's that was for a long
Speaker 1: time kind of my form of relaxation outside of the
Speaker 1: kitchen and my form of entertainment. And by the time
Speaker 1: I got to know my age, what was it was
Speaker 1: like twenty seven and twenty eight, Like there's been enough
Speaker 1: kind of under my belt by that point in terms
Speaker 1: of my own private reading that I just had the
Speaker 1: capacity to explain a lot of things that maybe other
Speaker 1: books in the kitchen might have taken for granted. You know,
Speaker 1: one one kind of token example, one day, the bone
Speaker 1: marrow wasn't doing so well, and then I had to explain, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you know, the fat inside marrow is an interlinked layer
Speaker 1: of cells to contain water. So if you de hydrated
Speaker 1: slightly before service, he moved that surface water and trap
Speaker 1: sugar molecules which will help a caramelize that. Yeah, with
Speaker 1: within a year, you know, I was thankful that I
Speaker 1: started doing something else and I had never expected that.
Speaker 1: That's not why I arrived at Normal, but it was
Speaker 1: kind of like one of these life changing moments where
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, this could lead to some really amazing
Speaker 1: opportunities for me. But I'd also like to say that,
Speaker 1: you know, like me ending up in the formentation, that
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily light in to the top of this restaurants. Like,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that make this place work,
Speaker 1: and you know, there's amazing cooks like Meta in June
Speaker 1: and the Test Kitchen and have the creative talent, but
Speaker 1: I feel I lack in some ways and in terms
Speaker 1: of their decisiveness or the ability to explore flavors in
Speaker 1: this world, and their creativity is just you know, they're
Speaker 1: they're kind of victual leading forces in that kitchen. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe conceptually, I'm better suited to tinkering with fermentation and
Speaker 1: coming up with ingredients or building blocks, But in this restaurant,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no there's no one cook at the
Speaker 1: top of the mountain. Like between our head chef and
Speaker 1: our ingredient manager and the chefs, it takes a village.
Speaker 1: Noma has expanded its influence by attracting talents from outside
Speaker 1: of the food world, like anthropologist, molecular chemist, and agricultural
Speaker 1: scientists who work in its Nordic Food Lab. So when
Speaker 1: you hear David Silber talk about the environment at Noma
Speaker 1: from his prayer as the now director of the fermentation Lab,
Speaker 1: it was a really big deal for him to get
Speaker 1: that promotion. Do you think Noma Do you think of
Speaker 1: it as a restaurant? It is a restaurant, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's how I had to define it. I would say
Speaker 1: that it is. But it's very rare that I walk
Speaker 1: into a restaurant and also call it an institution. You know,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of also how we think about it.
Speaker 1: Um when you moved into a role that was focused
Speaker 1: on fermentation, this is happening. I mean you say, maybe
Speaker 1: four or five years ago, concurrently with a moment nationally
Speaker 1: or globally rather where fermentation was coming not really back
Speaker 1: into fashion, but was being centered on restaurant menus. Can
Speaker 1: can you say or do you? Can you theorize maybe
Speaker 1: why over the last couple of years it seems like
Speaker 1: the focus on fermentation has really been centered in rest
Speaker 1: rants all over the world. But I really do think
Speaker 1: it's less of the trend and more than understanding, Like
Speaker 1: there is a deep comprehension that these things aren't out
Speaker 1: of reach for people, and as they explore them for themselves,
Speaker 1: they realize that it's powerful. And I don't think you
Speaker 1: can never take that power away. That's not something you
Speaker 1: get bored of. Once you make it, you have it
Speaker 1: on hanging because the work it for a little more. So. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because once you can focus on what's within your boundaries,
Speaker 1: you can then be for you to kind of look
Speaker 1: outside and then say, Okay, now I can take an
Speaker 1: inspiration other spaces and then translate that to where I
Speaker 1: am and make it make sense for me. And that's
Speaker 1: exactly what we've done with the commentation for them come
Speaker 1: to get go from those first investigations on the household,
Speaker 1: but looking more the food love, these were a bunch
Speaker 1: of very curious and passion of cooks that we're just
Speaker 1: looking at blood for inspiration and trying to translate that
Speaker 1: to the terrore of of of the current locale, and
Speaker 1: in doing so you end up with a deep understanding.
Speaker 1: You're not just learning by roads. It takes up the
Speaker 1: found taking apart and understanding of the intermach nations to
Speaker 1: build something back up that is completely new. So it's
Speaker 1: definitely exploded and expanded, and the amount of restaurants that
Speaker 1: would definitely fall under that cachet has grown many times over,
Speaker 1: but it's still there. And even though even at Noma,
Speaker 1: you know we might cook with all of the allier
Speaker 1: there get our see me from Japan and Troubles from
Speaker 1: Australia and kind of trade our footsteps to our travels,
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like we're any less about celebrating the
Speaker 1: region that we're in or coming up the flavors that
Speaker 1: make for a distinct cuisine. So I think it's a
Speaker 1: valid now as it ever worked. But it's also mature,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's grown beyond that kind of boyish
Speaker 1: naive to tay about making your mark on the world
Speaker 1: that maybe got it to come about in the first place,
Speaker 1: and I doesn't think it's kind of aged into a
Speaker 1: really amazing place where you have all these amazing restaurants
Speaker 1: with Emily as well as producing you know, whole generations
Speaker 1: of talent. I'm curious how you know, stories like yours
Speaker 1: of chefs coming from different parts of the world for
Speaker 1: the Noma experience and then you know, in many cases
Speaker 1: moving on to start their own restaurants or even in
Speaker 1: the cases where they stay. How much has the worldliness
Speaker 1: of the staff over the years impacted the cuisine at
Speaker 1: Noma UM in Copenhagen as well? The influence of of
Speaker 1: like a multinational kitchener's impacted incredibly profoundly, in no offense
Speaker 1: to the Dames. But back in Canada, I mean, we
Speaker 1: have First Nations people, we have Aboriginals that this in Denmark,
Speaker 1: you know, this is where white people come from it,
Speaker 1: so it's a fairly comogenous society by its nature. But
Speaker 1: as Noma kept growing, I mean the amount of Dames
Speaker 1: that represented the kitchen kind of dwindled as it attracted
Speaker 1: world attention, and it became an attractor for um, you know,
Speaker 1: top shops around the world, kind of sipening off the
Speaker 1: crumvilla crump of that crop. So when it comes to
Speaker 1: New Nordic food, we talk a lot about farms and
Speaker 1: ingredients and sourcing, and even though conceptually we understand these things,
Speaker 1: it all feels and sounds kind of nebulous. So we
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to a chef who was influenced by
Speaker 1: the New Nordic Food movement, not necessarily from having worked
Speaker 1: in the kitchens at Noma or like restaurants in Copenhagen,
Speaker 1: but having observed the style of cooking from Afar and
Speaker 1: let it infuse their own. So we talked to Chef
Speaker 1: Jeremy Charles, who is considered to be one of the
Speaker 1: very best chefs in Canada. And we're talking to Chef
Speaker 1: Charles about a cod and I think in the way
Speaker 1: that we discussed the utilization of the fish, you will
Speaker 1: hear with a lot more specificity the philosophical in gastronomical
Speaker 1: role of New Nordic food in his own So while Obviously,
Speaker 1: Noma did not invent utilizing local fish and its entirety.
Speaker 1: There is something about the surrounding ideology presented by Chef
Speaker 1: Charles through this Michelin Star lens which I think will
Speaker 1: help people understand how the new Nordic style has really
Speaker 1: rippled outward. So here is Chef Jeremy Charles. We're here
Speaker 1: at Rifflin Hitch Lodge, an incredible fishing lodge in a
Speaker 1: state in Labrador on the Eagle River, which I think
Speaker 1: you can hear in the background, and I'm here with
Speaker 1: one of Canada's most owned and celebrated chefs, Jeremy Charles. Today. Hey,
Speaker 1: how's it going. Thanks for hanging out, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: I mean, what a beautiful spot to be. I grew
Speaker 1: up in St. John's, which is the capital of Newfoundland
Speaker 1: and Labrador. I spent a lot of my summers in
Speaker 1: a small fishing village with my grandmother and grandfather. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a place where they lived off the land.
Speaker 1: You know, they grew their gardens, they ate from the
Speaker 1: land and see picked berries and you know, as a kid,
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time down on the wharf
Speaker 1: cutting out cod tongues and really being exposed to the
Speaker 1: traditional ways and roots of Newfouland, you know. And I
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in the kitchen with my grandparents,
Speaker 1: cooking a lot of traditional meals. You know, we grew
Speaker 1: out picking berries and come back and make a beautiful pie.
Speaker 1: And and again going down to the wharf and you know,
Speaker 1: bringing up to cod fish and splitting them with my
Speaker 1: grandfather and on a rock in front of the house,
Speaker 1: and using all the parts of the cod fish. You know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't just the boneless, skinless loins. It was you know,
Speaker 1: busting down the cod's head and taking out the cod
Speaker 1: tongues and the napes and just using the whole fish
Speaker 1: and celebrating the whole animal. You know, all the remains
Speaker 1: went back into the garden to help for lots of gardens.
Speaker 1: There was nothing that that went to waste. And um,
Speaker 1: you know, they were they were eating organically before the
Speaker 1: word organic really meant anything to people. You know, that
Speaker 1: generation of people. My grandmother's ninety two right now, and
Speaker 1: she's still making bread and buns and it's uh, it's
Speaker 1: so inspiring. And and it was that was just the
Speaker 1: way of life. That's how people lived in New foland
Speaker 1: can you tell us a bit about what napes are
Speaker 1: for the listeners who might not be familiar. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: cod napes, well, our way of saying the uh, the
Speaker 1: fins the collar of the codfish, and we cut those
Speaker 1: out and they're almost like the chicken wing of the codfish.
Speaker 1: Are so beautiful and so much gelatin and they're just
Speaker 1: something you pick up in your hands and you get
Speaker 1: tucked into it. You know. It's uh, it's uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's probably the best way to describe it. And
Speaker 1: I understand it's one of your favorite parts of the cod. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people again that market and stuff,
Speaker 1: we're just buying bonless, skinless cod and you see people
Speaker 1: bone out fish and you know they take off the
Speaker 1: loins and the whole fish goes over the side or
Speaker 1: in the bin. It's just like, my god, you know,
Speaker 1: there's so much to a cod fish more than just
Speaker 1: just the loins. So when we're breaking down cod where yeah,
Speaker 1: you use the napes and the tongues and the cheeks,
Speaker 1: the heads, and we use the sounds which are the
Speaker 1: sound ballast of the fish and um, yeah, it's you
Speaker 1: know for for New Flann that's the whole reason why
Speaker 1: people can a new flanners for the cod fish. You know,
Speaker 1: when when you say the word fish, people just assume
Speaker 1: you're talking about codfish, and cod is king and always
Speaker 1: will be, you know. Yeah, Can you talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about the role that cod played over the last
Speaker 1: few centuries here end up until the nineteen nineties UM
Speaker 1: when the industry began to decline here, cod fish was
Speaker 1: everything to New Fland and most a lot of parts
Speaker 1: of Labrador. I mean, the island was full of fishing
Speaker 1: communities all across the island and it sustained generations of people.
Speaker 1: And you know, we traded salt cod for molasses and
Speaker 1: rum and salt, and you know, we shipped caught all
Speaker 1: around the world Spain, Portugal, you know, down the islands, Jamaica,
Speaker 1: and it was such an important resource and such an
Speaker 1: important part of our obviously culture and it's kind of
Speaker 1: ingrained in who we are. And the whole idea is
Speaker 1: to celebrate again all the wild, beautiful ingredients from land.
Speaker 1: And see, we're so fortunate here in New Fland were
Speaker 1: able to serve wild game moose and rabbits and partridge
Speaker 1: and grouse and some of the most beautiful seafood in
Speaker 1: the world, scallops and sea urchin and obviously codfish and
Speaker 1: snow crab, lobster, whelks, razor clams. Uh, you know, the
Speaker 1: list goes on. But you know, for many years, a
Speaker 1: lot of those products were just like frozen or just
Speaker 1: shipped out of the province to Japan, New York, Boston,
Speaker 1: you know, China and Russia, and you know sea urchin
Speaker 1: or welks or razor clams. You know, those were things
Speaker 1: that I didn't see at my grandmother's table, you know,
Speaker 1: and people really didn't acknowledge those ingredients. And I was like,
Speaker 1: my god, you know, we can live in these big cities,
Speaker 1: and seeing how prize these ingredients were to so many people,
Speaker 1: it was like, we have all this beautiful, beautiful things
Speaker 1: back home that are not being celebrated put on plates.
Speaker 1: So I was really excited when I did return home
Speaker 1: to start to showcases ingredients that were really kind of yeah,
Speaker 1: not part of the culture, not part of the diet,
Speaker 1: you know. And m yeah, that was really really exciting.
Speaker 1: For sure. You know that you're only as good as
Speaker 1: your products, and when you have beautiful products, you just
Speaker 1: try to keep it simple and showcase those things. But
Speaker 1: those relationships are a big part of it. And it's
Speaker 1: not just ordering off an order sheet and you know, cooking,
Speaker 1: it's all about what goes into sourcing these ingredients and things.
Speaker 1: We are able to tell you a story actually where
Speaker 1: the food is actually coming from, you know, and how
Speaker 1: it's been harvested, and and what neck of the woods
Speaker 1: is coming from and almost down to the individual. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's all comes back to creating a sense of place.
Speaker 1: And and uh, for many years, I don't think New
Speaker 1: Flan really had a food identity, shall we say, you know,
Speaker 1: we kind of got lost in lost in space. I
Speaker 1: don't know. We're an island in the middle of the
Speaker 1: Atlantic Ocean, way out on the end of Canada. You know.
Speaker 1: For for many years we're forgotten about. And even when
Speaker 1: people talked about New Flan, they talked about fish and
Speaker 1: chips and deep fried food. And you know, everybody here
Speaker 1: didn't want any traditional foods. They wanted everything else outside
Speaker 1: of the province, you know. And so I think it
Speaker 1: was about ten fifteen years ago maybe things started to change,
Speaker 1: you know. I think, you know, myself and Jeremy and
Speaker 1: a few other people were a big part of that
Speaker 1: of bringing back being proud of ingredients around us and
Speaker 1: proud of the food and really again going back to
Speaker 1: our roots, you know, and back to our roots sellers
Speaker 1: and growing things in our gardens and showing people that
Speaker 1: it's okay to to live off the land. It's okay
Speaker 1: to celebrate the things around you. It doesn't have to
Speaker 1: come from outside the province. You know. For many years
Speaker 1: people always wanted stuff from outside, and it was like
Speaker 1: nobody focused on all the beautiful things we had. And
Speaker 1: I think that comes back to you know, education too,
Speaker 1: especially with all the while edibles here, all the beautiful
Speaker 1: Chantrell's and all the wonderful things that are in the
Speaker 1: woods that are just at our fingertips that people had
Speaker 1: no idea about, you know, not many anyhow. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been it's been a great time to be part
Speaker 1: of definitely food movement. You know. It's a wonderful culture
Speaker 1: here and it's a special place and I'm super proud
Speaker 1: to be to be home and to be able to
Speaker 1: come to places like this and spend time with friends
Speaker 1: and the fish and hunting again, live off the land
Speaker 1: and be a family. Our last guest today, chef Boback
Speaker 1: is one of the trailblazers of the Copenhagen food scene.
Speaker 1: He first made his name at restaurant Palace Gin, where
Speaker 1: he won a Michelin star, and in two thousand and
Speaker 1: eleven he opened up his restaurant Geist, where he's still
Speaker 1: the executive chef. Today we're picking up with him speculating
Speaker 1: on how Danish culture might have been the key to
Speaker 1: understanding the formation of the Nordic food movement. Here's Chef Bobeck.
Speaker 1: If you're born in Italy or Spain, in or France,
Speaker 1: which is the big countries, and in our part of
Speaker 1: the world, our continent, I bet that they're they're under
Speaker 1: the spell of the mama culture. That your mama would
Speaker 1: look at them and say, my boy, don't you change
Speaker 1: the thing. You're beautiful, you're strong, you have the right genes.
Speaker 1: I bet it's the same here in America. But when
Speaker 1: you're born in Denmark, your mother looks at you with straight,
Speaker 1: honest eyes, very clear. She says, if you want to
Speaker 1: be anything, you gotta learn You gotta learn language. Because
Speaker 1: you live in a country that only has six million people.
Speaker 1: No one understands your tongue. So if you want to
Speaker 1: accomplish anything, you've gotta open up your eyes. That's what
Speaker 1: you're being taught. Long story short. I think what happened
Speaker 1: was we were a group of maybe twenty chefs around
Speaker 1: that time. And this is because there's a group of
Speaker 1: chefs who are able to work across Europe without being
Speaker 1: paid and then eventually bring those skills from in some
Speaker 1: cases three Michelin star restaurants back to Copenhagen. And so
Speaker 1: now you have kind of the makings of a new
Speaker 1: food culture because you have a group of highly skilled
Speaker 1: and trained chefs who have just arrived back to Copenhagen
Speaker 1: in the early two thousands. Is that right? It might
Speaker 1: sound ridiculous no pay, but it was very simple. Otherwise
Speaker 1: you don't get inside the door. So how did you survive?
Speaker 1: You work at a cafe next there, you do some shifts,
Speaker 1: you do a job as a dishwasher. You get enough
Speaker 1: to run. The ironic positive side of it is you're
Speaker 1: working six days a week. You don't need clothes, I
Speaker 1: mean one set of clothes last week. You don't you
Speaker 1: don't need food because you're eating at the restaurant. You
Speaker 1: talk about Nordic and and the creation and the birth
Speaker 1: of it, the romantic story that I try and and
Speaker 1: and the way I try and explain to this it's
Speaker 1: a little bit like a cat that gets lured up
Speaker 1: in the tree. It's not concerned about how it's going
Speaker 1: to get down again. It's just going forward. There's something
Speaker 1: that's more interesting up in that tree, and that's why
Speaker 1: it goes up there. Then there's no doubt about it
Speaker 1: that who everyone knows at Noma was simply just a
Speaker 1: better translator of everything. He by far was better man
Speaker 1: at at setting up an organization around the whole thing
Speaker 1: and putting words to it and executing it. And boy
Speaker 1: or boy, it has he changed it. And I couldn't
Speaker 1: be more proud of it. And it's it's as simple
Speaker 1: as that. You know, there's this line I always used,
Speaker 1: how can you miss something if you don't know it exists?
Speaker 1: And there made it exist, so you would create it.
Speaker 1: Danish food. The Nordic style approach has the same strength
Speaker 1: in architecture as well. It's a very clean lines, very understandable,
Speaker 1: almost naked, and when you work in such a visual
Speaker 1: and flavorful, clear vision, it becomes much easier to understand
Speaker 1: the language. And I think it has many similarities to
Speaker 1: Japanese lifestyle and cooking, and maybe the world was just
Speaker 1: begging for some one to open their eyes and it
Speaker 1: happened to be him, all us that group of people.
Speaker 1: And but there always need to be a face on
Speaker 1: something and where you all talking to each other about
Speaker 1: a collective vision for the food that you wanted to cook.
Speaker 1: I think we talked about it, but not in the
Speaker 1: sense that you would hope that we would choke about it.
Speaker 1: We were friends. But what you all have collectively done
Speaker 1: has been transformative, and that people are thinking about cuisine
Speaker 1: as something that is closely related to identity and the
Speaker 1: amount of pride and resourcefulness that Renee was able to
Speaker 1: help articulate as a very visible and charismatic leader really
Speaker 1: inspired a lot of chefs around the world world and
Speaker 1: in turn it brought a lot of people to Copenhagen
Speaker 1: and really has given Copenhagen this reputation. And your restaurant
Speaker 1: is a big part of that as well. And so
Speaker 1: I wonder now that this thing that we didn't know
Speaker 1: we wanted to exist, it existed, it has thrived in
Speaker 1: such a way that now everyone is trying to create
Speaker 1: their own equivalents for their culture. What do you think
Speaker 1: about this movement that you helped build, and what do
Speaker 1: you think about its utility in the future, if at all,
Speaker 1: if it needs to have a future, given how far
Speaker 1: it's come in the last let's say ten or fifteen years.
Speaker 1: Let me give an analogy of one of the big
Speaker 1: staples of American American football, New England Patriots. Either people
Speaker 1: hate them or they loved them. They have a guy,
Speaker 1: a quarterback, com Tom Brady, and a genius also, Build Bilichick.
Speaker 1: You know, do your job. But the thing is when
Speaker 1: the team starts out, they have to figure out how
Speaker 1: to work, how to play, how to make this happen.
Speaker 1: And then after that all the other teams start studying them.
Speaker 1: What are their moves, what are their secrets? So what
Speaker 1: keeps them in the game for so long is their
Speaker 1: self reflection of acknowledging we need to move, We need
Speaker 1: to be in a movement as well. We can't be static,
Speaker 1: we can't celebrate our successes. And that's I think one
Speaker 1: of the keystones to the survival of any great cuisine
Speaker 1: is that it's in movement, that it's constantly evolving. When
Speaker 1: you live inside the fourst you just see the trees.
Speaker 1: You don't see the forest and you're just doing what
Speaker 1: you do. You guys, you see the forest because you're
Speaker 1: looking from a distance. As as long as we just
Speaker 1: keep doing what it is we're doing, we will become relevant.
Speaker 1: And if not, so be it. It's not important. What's
Speaker 1: important is one of my life mantrass is it's easier
Speaker 1: to remember the truth than the lie. And and if
Speaker 1: you live a life like that, it's just so easy
Speaker 1: because you just gotta do what you do. You don't
Speaker 1: have to be concerned. I think life gets complicated when
Speaker 1: you start doing what you think you should be doing
Speaker 1: because other people are telling you you should be doing this.
Speaker 1: So how should we regard the most influential international food
Speaker 1: movement of the last decade as something that happened or
Speaker 1: is happening. What's unequivocally true is that Scandinavia is now
Speaker 1: very much on the map alongside France, Spain and Italy
Speaker 1: as the most regarded cuisines in Europe and in fact
Speaker 1: among the very best in the world. The New Nordic
Speaker 1: movement spawned a very real and very robust hospitality industry,
Speaker 1: gastro tourism sector, food artisans and innumerable small farmers, the
Speaker 1: movement that we used to call New Nordic. Now it's
Speaker 1: just Nordic, and I think more than anything that pretty
Speaker 1: much says it all. I'd like to thank our guest
Speaker 1: today Matt Orlando of a mass and brought In and Build,
Speaker 1: David Dilbert, fermentation director at NOMA, and Bobeck of Geist
Speaker 1: All in Copenhagen. Thanks to Chef Jeremy Charles of Raymonds
Speaker 1: and the Merchant Havever in St. John's Newfoundland Special. Thanks
Speaker 1: to Simon Lavender who created the music featured in today's
Speaker 1: episode special. Thanks to my business partner who makes all
Speaker 1: things possible at Whetstone are co founder Melissa she Thanks mel.
Speaker 1: Thank you to Selene Glazier, who is our lead producer.
Speaker 1: To Cat Hong, our editor, to Havin Obasa Lassa and
Speaker 1: Quentin lebou our production interns. To our friends at iHeart
Speaker 1: Radio for helping us bring you this podcast. To Gabrielle Collins,
Speaker 1: our supervising producer, engineer J. J. Pauseway and executive producer
Speaker 1: Christopher Hasiotis. I'm your host, the origin Forager Steven Saderfield,
Speaker 1: and we will be back here next week with more
Speaker 1: from Whetstone Magazine's point of origin podcast, What w