WEBVTT - A New, New Nordic? 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:19.400 Within the close knit world of global gastronomy. Red Zeppy 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.440 is a figure whose influence might be compared to that 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:26.200 of David Bowie's and music in the nineteen seventies, or 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:32.080 Steve Jobs in technology in the nineteen eighties, or Beyonce's now. 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:37.280 He is the chef behind Noma, a restaurant in Copenhagen 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.440 that has, for those who follow and chronicle these things, 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:45.600 changed the way people think about food. Writers have a 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.879 habit of referring to Noma as the best restaurant on 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:53.600 earth that may or may not make Red Deppi, by 0:00:53.800 --> 0:01:02.240 hyperbolic extension, the greatest chef alive. D Zeppi was expected 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.119 to fall in line with his mentors and cook French classics, 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:09.279 and for a while he did. Soon, though, red Zeppi 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.240 had the epiphany that his food should not only be 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.520 made with, but entirely shaped by what he found in 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.920 the forest, on the beach and in the hands of 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:24.880 local farmers. In practice, this meant that berries ripe for 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:28.119 a mere two weeks a year, implucked by a Swedish 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:33.039 farmer uninterested in selling them, were more luxurious than imported caviar. 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.039 He served them in a bowl with minimal adornment. He 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:42.319 made teroar the soil, the climate, and the land that 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.120 shaped the flavor of the plant and animal that eats it. 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.520 More than jargon, he made it the entire point of 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:58.360 his cuisine. That was an excerpt from the book Hungry, Eating, 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.360 Road Tripping, and Risking it All with the Greatest Chef 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.120 in the World. It was written by my friend, author 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:10.560 and Esquire Food and Drink editor Jeff Gordineer. Jeff is 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.600 one of my favorite food writers. He's really smart, and 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:17.840 he's a really engaged listener. In other words, he's a 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:21.200 great writer because he's a great observer. So when he 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.480 decided to turn his attention to Renee red ZEPPI I 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:28.680 knew it would be a worthwhile read. We started today's 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.840 episode with that excerpt to provide some context about red 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:37.320 Zeppy and the so called Nordic food movement. If you're 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.280 a food person, almost certainly you're aware of his influence, 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.440 but if you're not understanding the movement that he helped 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:47.959 create will contextualize a style of food from aesthetic to 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:52.440 ethos that has permeated fine dining kitchens, the minds of 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.760 impressionable chefs, and also their Instagram feeds for more than 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.720 a decade, and now on the other side of the 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.519 laim and influence, noma's alumni are distinguished brigade into themselves, 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:09.639 a gaggle of successful independent restaurateurs and food professionals who 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:13.160 were born of this movement and in some cases, as 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:18.600 with David Zilberg, gone on to lead his own siloed movement, or, 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.040 in the case of Matt Orlando, gone on to open 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:26.280 an acclaimed restaurant of their own. We'll hear from both 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:30.440 of these gentlemen today. But whether or not the conversation 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:36.000 of New Nordic is a belabored one isn't really a question. Really, 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.760 the question is what do we call the movement that 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:45.240 spawned from the New Nordic food movement Today? On point 0:03:45.240 --> 0:04:00.920 of origin, it's the new New Nordic. But before we 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.960 we talked about this moniker of New Nordic, I want 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.080 to back up and give some context of people who 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.200 might not know what it is that we're talking about. 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.440 So can you just tell people at the onset of 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.680 the so called New Nordic cuisine what it is and 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.000 why it was characterized that way? Well, New Nordic Cuisine 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:26.120 when it was first kind of conceptualized. Was a kind 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:29.880 of a mantra or should actually manifesto that a bunch 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:34.400 of chefs from Scandinavia came up with, basically saying that 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.320 there were going to stop looking south for inspiration and 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.000 they were going to start looking inwards basically what was 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:45.800 around them and why that concept in itself is not 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:50.520 new in the cooking world at that moment in time. 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.320 The idea of actually cooking from the ingredients that existed 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.400 in Scandinavia was very foreign even to most of the 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.159 chefs cookie in Scandinavia at the time. You might hear 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:08.200 the word manifesto tossed around. It's less weighty than it sounds, 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.440 but basically it was a living document conceived in two 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:15.039 thousand and four when twelve Nordic chefs got together and 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.480 signed a sort of declaration of independence for regional food. 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.080 I'm not going to go through all the tenants, but 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:26.120 it basically covers stuff like purity, regionality and seasonality. I mean, 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.839 when I first moved to Denmark in two thousand five, 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:33.320 every fine dining restaurant was an Italian or fential restaurant, 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:38.320 and all inspiration was coming from Italy. France and Spain, 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:44.599 and so the idea of having a restaurant dead was 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:54.360 only using ingredients from Scandinavia. People thought we were crazy. 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:00.480 That's Matt Orlando. He is a prominent chef, an owner 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.280 of a mass restaurant in Copenhagen and also brought in 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.880 and build a brewery which is just a few steps 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.840 away from the restaurant. Orlando started at Noma in two 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:14.440 thousand five, just a year after it opened, so in 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:18.400 other words, before it was Noma. Here he is describing 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:22.160 the experimental vibe of the early days were crazy. I 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.440 mean I started at Noma about a year after they opened, 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:29.200 so it was very new, very experimental, not only in 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:32.080 the way we were cooking, but just the ideology of 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.400 in the direction we were trying to go. It was 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.080 a very exciting time. It was we were in uncharged 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.800 waters constantly, and at that moment in time when I 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.360 got there, people were still kind of making fun of 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:49.000 what was happening at moment that time. I mean to 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.440 put it in context, when I went to Denmark in 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.880 two thousand five, at the very beginning of this whole 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.360 kind of movement, I mean, I felt like I stepped 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:02.520 into a a wonderland ingredients stuff I had never worked before, 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.080 stuff stuff that now is quite commonplace because this whole 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.200 movement has really put a lot of ingredients that people 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.800 had overlooked or thought as not really interesting into the 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.560 limelight and now they're quite sought after. I had come 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:19.480 from the background where you know, manipulating ingredients into something 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:25.400 was kind of always the goal, whereas there was so 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.880 much respect for the ingredients that we were we were 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.560 using at the time at Doma, and it was this 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:37.200 really natural way of cooking, kind of letting the ingredients 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.480 guide you as opposed to taking an ingredient and manipulating. 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:42.720 It was just a really big taught to be in 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.000 Scandinadia in those those first few years. One of the 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:48.320 things that stuck with me from my talk with Matt 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.160 is how the movement transformed not just fine dining but 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.840 also the entire food system in Denmark. And so when 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.520 I put the mask, I started approaching a lot of 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:03.200 our farmers saying a why can't we grow this or 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.280 why can't we grow this? And over the last six 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:09.440 years we have been able to start growing things in 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.800 the capacity that we can use them at the restaurant. 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:15.600 We have developed vegetables. An eight plant that's growing in 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:17.640 Scandinavia is going to say it's way different than an 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:21.080 eight plant growing in Italy. You can't grow the same 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.760 species of a plant that you can Italy. You have 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.160 to find one that's a bit more adapted to the cold, 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:31.400 can handle temperature, swings stuff. So over the last years 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:36.640 we've been finding the particular species of different vegetables that 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.839 will thrive in this environment, and we're growing with our 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:45.200 farmers amazing cucumbers, tomatoes, egg plants, all this stuff. And 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.120 now that's catching on, and now that's becoming part of 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.400 Nordic cuisine, which before, if you ever put a tomato 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:54.960 on the menu, you would have been strung up and 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:59.000 it was crazy and just just ridiculed by people. So 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:04.360 it's evolved a lot in that sense in what ingredients 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:09.199 are acceptable within the cuisine. Now. The chefs that contributed 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.640 to this manifesto really made a commitment to not only 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:17.760 finding these ingredients and using them, but more importantly, really 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:21.400 supporting the farmers and helping them to get these ingredients 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:23.640 to the restaurants. And you know, when I look back 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:25.400 on it now and I look at all the there's 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:32.520 so many farms around Copenhagen that up until this massive 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.559 restaurant movement and the spotlight of Copenhagen. Up until then, 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.840 these farms they were selling to big co ops and 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:45.040 grocery stores, and they were producing amazing vegetables, but they 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.680 were producing them on a bigger scale, and the people 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.640 that were consuming them didn't really have a whole lot 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.680 of respect for what these farms were doing. If you 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.920 look at the majority of those farms now, they only 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:04.040 produce for restaurants. And that's how big of a switch 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.760 it's been. They only produced for restaurants, and they only 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:12.560 produced for restaurants that really respect the ingredients that they're producing. 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.360 So I think it was it was a massive commitment 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:18.440 from this this group of chefs that are beginning to 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.920 really embrace this because they, I mean, this was not 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.280 the easy way to go about cooking at all. At 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.679 what point at Noma in your tenure there did you 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:34.360 realize this restaurant that people were making fun of in 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.320 the early days was actually at the cross section of 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.840 the most important international food movement that was happening. I 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.080 realized that the day I stepped in the door there, 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.760 my world was flipped upside down, and I just became 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:53.840 completely obsessed with the process of cooking, in the science 0:10:53.880 --> 0:11:00.160 behind it into a molecular level. And somewhere along the line, obviously, Lee, 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:06.520 what's new is destined to become old. And now we 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.439 find ourselves, as you said, fourteen years down the line, 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:16.200 and yet we're still talking about New Nordic cuisine, and 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.360 other chefs and alumni like yourself have gone on to 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:23.600 make their own names and really deep impressions in the 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:28.680 global restaurant culture as well. So how are you grappling 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:33.760 with the nomenclature of new Nordic cuisine and light of 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.440 the fact that we're moving onto our almost second decade 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.520 of this. If you look at the religious background of 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.480 this part of the world, it's primarily Protestant, and in 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.880 the Protestant religion, food is not something to be enjoyed. 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.679 Food is a thing of substance. So there has never 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.199 been this deep history of food because food has never 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:57.160 been a priority in this region of the world in 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.360 regards to enjoyment like it is in France and Spain 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.680 and Italy and stuff like that. So this way of 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:06.160 thinking in this region of the world is new, and 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.040 so that new part of the title has had a 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:14.280 place at a certain moment in time. And I get 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.600 asked often like why how do you think Nordic cuisine 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:21.600 has been able to retain its time at the top 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:26.120 of influential cuisines in the world. And the answer is simple, 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.120 is that, unlike other cuisines, because we don't have this 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:35.760 like really like rich food history here, we don't have 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:41.360 rules that we have to follow culturally, and so the 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:46.720 cuisine itself keeps evolving. And if I look at how 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.000 people were cooking here in two thousand five, and then 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.440 look at how the next generation of chefs are cooking 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:58.400 now in Scandinavia, I mean it's a different thing completely. 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.200 And there are things that were important then that aren't 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.840 important now, and they were rules set out by this 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:11.000 manifesto that are become obsolete. And this whole next generation 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:17.720 of chefs coming through have really challenged what Nordic cuisine 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:22.679 is because you have so many foreigners coming to this 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.959 region of the world to cook, and the majority of 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:31.560 the people running the restaurants in Copenhagen are not from here. 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.360 The global influence of the Nordic food movement can't be 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.160 overstated because so many chefs themselves are the ones that 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:50.480 are constantly reinforcing its importance and their own lives and 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:54.120 in their own careers and point of origin. Episode two, 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:58.160 we heard Geesely Grimson from Salt Work in Iceland saying 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:05.680 this very thing, but basically the new Nordic food scene, 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:10.120 which is brought to the world by many people in Scandinavia, 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.560 but most notably probably renerand Zappi and the team at Noma. 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:17.680 It kind of opened the eyes of many Icelandic chefs 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.520 too to be proud of what is surrounding us. So 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.440 I mean, I can say I started working in the 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.840 restaurant industry about like tann or eleven years ago, and 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:33.040 then people wouldn't be using seaweed that is growing around. 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.880 They wouldn't be kind of really they would be more 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.920 proud to use kind of black truffles from Italy or 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.680 or or these kind of like Italian parmesanos or this 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:47.320 like proshut cut ham and all that, because nobody kind 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:53.000 of was super proud of Icelandic food traditions. And in 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.760 episode eleven, we heard chef Michael alec Debi talking about 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.160 how it was the power of the story that read 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.560 Zeppi and Noma were able to help craft that made 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:06.880 it so influential. In other words, not just amplifying the 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.600 influence of the food itself, but also even how we 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:15.280 talk about the food um And what I've learned from 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.440 a lot of the chefs are the stories they tell. 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:23.760 They get to tell the story of their cuisine, of 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.760 their food, of their people through the art that they 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.560 have and through the art that the exhibit. Even chefs 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.240 that I didn't work with, like Renewed Zeppi and alex 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:39.960 Atala and Massimos Botura, how their approach towards their cuisine 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:44.640 have changed the world's perception. For our Reneed, no one 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.640 looked at Scandinavian food as you know, anything more than 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:52.320 potatoes and you know, carrots, And now the Northern cuisine 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:56.840 is being revered and it's because of that representation and 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.720 the stories that are told behind the the people and 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:10.120 the tradition that was Matt Orlando, chef and owner at 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:14.080 a mass and brought in and build brewery in Copenhagen. 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:55.080 Welcome back to point of origin. Today. Our special guest 0:16:55.280 --> 0:17:01.440 is Chef David Zilberg, who is the fermentation guru at 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:05.480 Noma or more formally known as the Director of Fermentation 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:10.800 at NOMA. He is also the author of the essential 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.640 book on fermentation called The Nope But Guide to Fermentation, 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.879 and we are pleased to have him join us today. David, 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.359 thank you so much for joining us. On point of origin. 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:23.800 Thank you for having me of course here. Of course, 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.320 of course I ended up in Copenhagen because I was fascinated, 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.920 like I think many people are in the world of 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.040 food about restaurant Noma. So I shot off a little 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.240 to Denmark and they snatched me up. That was in 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.719 two thousand and four team in the spring. Yeah, I 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:40.919 worked in the main kitchen for about a year and 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:43.760 that was very much a shock coming from my little 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.080 provincial country of Canada to the big leagues of you know, 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:51.280 European mission Star fifty best less restaurants. Let's stuck with 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.280 him and get my head down and tried to work hard. 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:55.760 And about a year into my time, they're, um, you know, 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.200 Rene and Dan Drew studio head chefs set me down 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:01.160 and said, you know, times for me and they wanted 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.720 me ton't start working at From addition that that's kind 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:11.560 of a semi position. When David Zilber reached out to 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.320 Noma in two thousand fourteen, Noma was already very much 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:18.800 a thing. Part of it's and enduring influence then and 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.400 even now has been the team's ability to attract and 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.760 retain talent. Like Matt Orlando said, most of the folks 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:31.240 in Noma's kitchen aren't from Denmark. That can be credited 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.680 in part to red Zeppy's investment in R and D. 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:37.480 After a year and a half at Noma, Silber was 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.840 promoted and now holds the position of Director of Fermentation, 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:43.600 which is one of the most distinguished in the field. 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.439 I've always been a really nerdy guy, you know, like 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.280 I never went to university. I barely scraped through high school. 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.560 But in my own private life, you know, I always 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.040 have this thirst phenology, lay too much time on Wikipedia 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:01.879 or you know, just picking up science non fictions up 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:03.840 on my own. And that's that was for a long 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.840 time kind of my form of relaxation outside of the 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.840 kitchen and my form of entertainment. And by the time 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:12.639 I got to know my age, what was it was 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:14.960 like twenty seven and twenty eight, Like there's been enough 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.640 kind of under my belt by that point in terms 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:20.600 of my own private reading that I just had the 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.160 capacity to explain a lot of things that maybe other 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.800 books in the kitchen might have taken for granted. You know, 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.280 one one kind of token example, one day, the bone 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.200 marrow wasn't doing so well, and then I had to explain, oh, well, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.879 you know, the fat inside marrow is an interlinked layer 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:40.200 of cells to contain water. So if you de hydrated 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.840 slightly before service, he moved that surface water and trap 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.880 sugar molecules which will help a caramelize that. Yeah, with 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.359 within a year, you know, I was thankful that I 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:51.400 started doing something else and I had never expected that. 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:53.439 That's not why I arrived at Normal, but it was 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.080 kind of like one of these life changing moments where 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:58.080 you're like, oh, this could lead to some really amazing 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.919 opportunities for me. But I'd also like to say that, 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.000 you know, like me ending up in the formentation, that 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.480 doesn't necessarily light in to the top of this restaurants. Like, 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:08.560 there's a lot of people that make this place work, 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.800 and you know, there's amazing cooks like Meta in June 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.399 and the Test Kitchen and have the creative talent, but 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.320 I feel I lack in some ways and in terms 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.919 of their decisiveness or the ability to explore flavors in 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.120 this world, and their creativity is just you know, they're 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.639 they're kind of victual leading forces in that kitchen. You know, 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.080 maybe conceptually, I'm better suited to tinkering with fermentation and 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.320 coming up with ingredients or building blocks, But in this restaurant, 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:36.159 you know, there's no there's no one cook at the 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.639 top of the mountain. Like between our head chef and 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.160 our ingredient manager and the chefs, it takes a village. 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.400 Noma has expanded its influence by attracting talents from outside 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:52.480 of the food world, like anthropologist, molecular chemist, and agricultural 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.960 scientists who work in its Nordic Food Lab. So when 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.840 you hear David Silber talk about the environment at Noma 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.840 from his prayer as the now director of the fermentation Lab, 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:05.160 it was a really big deal for him to get 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:09.080 that promotion. Do you think Noma Do you think of 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.959 it as a restaurant? It is a restaurant, I mean, 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.160 that's how I had to define it. I would say 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:17.840 that it is. But it's very rare that I walk 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:22.639 into a restaurant and also call it an institution. You know, 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:26.919 and that's kind of also how we think about it. 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.880 Um when you moved into a role that was focused 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:34.760 on fermentation, this is happening. I mean you say, maybe 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:39.000 four or five years ago, concurrently with a moment nationally 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:44.880 or globally rather where fermentation was coming not really back 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:49.320 into fashion, but was being centered on restaurant menus. Can 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:52.880 can you say or do you? Can you theorize maybe 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.719 why over the last couple of years it seems like 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:59.880 the focus on fermentation has really been centered in rest 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:02.520 rants all over the world. But I really do think 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:04.840 it's less of the trend and more than understanding, Like 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.560 there is a deep comprehension that these things aren't out 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.920 of reach for people, and as they explore them for themselves, 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.560 they realize that it's powerful. And I don't think you 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:15.879 can never take that power away. That's not something you 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.040 get bored of. Once you make it, you have it 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:21.359 on hanging because the work it for a little more. So. Yeah, 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.040 because once you can focus on what's within your boundaries, 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:27.360 you can then be for you to kind of look 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:29.399 outside and then say, Okay, now I can take an 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:33.040 inspiration other spaces and then translate that to where I 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:35.320 am and make it make sense for me. And that's 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:37.400 exactly what we've done with the commentation for them come 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.720 to get go from those first investigations on the household, 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:42.760 but looking more the food love, these were a bunch 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:44.879 of very curious and passion of cooks that we're just 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:47.520 looking at blood for inspiration and trying to translate that 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.919 to the terrore of of of the current locale, and 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:53.040 in doing so you end up with a deep understanding. 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.720 You're not just learning by roads. It takes up the 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:59.240 found taking apart and understanding of the intermach nations to 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:02.480 build something back up that is completely new. So it's 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:05.919 definitely exploded and expanded, and the amount of restaurants that 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:09.120 would definitely fall under that cachet has grown many times over, 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:11.879 but it's still there. And even though even at Noma, 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:13.640 you know we might cook with all of the allier 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.640 there get our see me from Japan and Troubles from 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:19.400 Australia and kind of trade our footsteps to our travels, 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:22.320 it doesn't feel like we're any less about celebrating the 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:25.120 region that we're in or coming up the flavors that 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:28.240 make for a distinct cuisine. So I think it's a 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:31.399 valid now as it ever worked. But it's also mature, 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:36.520 you know, and it's grown beyond that kind of boyish 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:39.600 naive to tay about making your mark on the world 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:41.920 that maybe got it to come about in the first place, 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:44.080 and I doesn't think it's kind of aged into a 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:47.879 really amazing place where you have all these amazing restaurants 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:52.280 with Emily as well as producing you know, whole generations 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:56.480 of talent. I'm curious how you know, stories like yours 0:23:56.720 --> 0:24:00.399 of chefs coming from different parts of the world for 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:04.240 the Noma experience and then you know, in many cases 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:06.720 moving on to start their own restaurants or even in 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:11.920 the cases where they stay. How much has the worldliness 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:16.280 of the staff over the years impacted the cuisine at 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:21.160 Noma UM in Copenhagen as well? The influence of of 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:25.800 like a multinational kitchener's impacted incredibly profoundly, in no offense 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:28.399 to the Dames. But back in Canada, I mean, we 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:32.320 have First Nations people, we have Aboriginals that this in Denmark, 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:34.480 you know, this is where white people come from it, 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:38.359 so it's a fairly comogenous society by its nature. But 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:41.280 as Noma kept growing, I mean the amount of Dames 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:45.240 that represented the kitchen kind of dwindled as it attracted 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:49.840 world attention, and it became an attractor for um, you know, 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:52.440 top shops around the world, kind of sipening off the 0:24:52.480 --> 0:25:24.720 crumvilla crump of that crop. So when it comes to 0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:27.119 New Nordic food, we talk a lot about farms and 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:31.760 ingredients and sourcing, and even though conceptually we understand these things, 0:25:32.040 --> 0:25:35.280 it all feels and sounds kind of nebulous. So we 0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:38.880 wanted to talk to a chef who was influenced by 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:42.480 the New Nordic Food movement, not necessarily from having worked 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:46.280 in the kitchens at Noma or like restaurants in Copenhagen, 0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:51.600 but having observed the style of cooking from Afar and 0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:54.920 let it infuse their own. So we talked to Chef 0:25:55.040 --> 0:25:57.840 Jeremy Charles, who is considered to be one of the 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:01.680 very best chefs in Canada. And we're talking to Chef 0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:05.760 Charles about a cod and I think in the way 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:09.360 that we discussed the utilization of the fish, you will 0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:15.120 hear with a lot more specificity the philosophical in gastronomical 0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:19.520 role of New Nordic food in his own So while Obviously, 0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:24.480 Noma did not invent utilizing local fish and its entirety. 0:26:24.520 --> 0:26:29.400 There is something about the surrounding ideology presented by Chef 0:26:29.520 --> 0:26:32.880 Charles through this Michelin Star lens which I think will 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:36.680 help people understand how the new Nordic style has really 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:45.520 rippled outward. So here is Chef Jeremy Charles. We're here 0:26:45.560 --> 0:26:50.520 at Rifflin Hitch Lodge, an incredible fishing lodge in a 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:53.840