Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shawonda
Speaker 1: Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. I like
Speaker 1: to say that the goal of practice is simply to
Speaker 1: be a compassionate mess This is messy, Social justice is messy.
Speaker 1: Our lives are messy. Every part of it is messy.
Speaker 1: We're gonna get it wrong over and over and over again,
Speaker 1: and we shouldn't actually expect otherwise. Hi, everyone, Welcome to
Speaker 1: the Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. Something a lot
Speaker 1: of people don't know about me is I can be
Speaker 1: really hard on myself, like debilitating lee hard on myself.
Speaker 1: Years ago, in an acting class in New York City
Speaker 1: with Brad Calcatara, Brad would have me do this exercise
Speaker 1: to take on the shell of the bitchiest drag queen
Speaker 1: from RuPaul's Drag Race and to read myself as if
Speaker 1: you know, I was reading someone else with all the
Speaker 1: negative things that I say about myself. And so I
Speaker 1: commenced doing the exercise and fully committing because that's what
Speaker 1: I do as an actor. And after Brad said cut,
Speaker 1: I broke down into tears because I had witnesses a
Speaker 1: class full of people who witnessed how hard I am
Speaker 1: on myself, all the horrible, awful things I say to
Speaker 1: myself about myself. Self criticism is something that has been
Speaker 1: a theme in my life. It's something that I I
Speaker 1: think I've used as a survival strategy. And last year,
Speaker 1: when the pandemic started and I was alone a lot,
Speaker 1: I realized that all of those old self critical thoughts
Speaker 1: were creeping back in all of a sudden, I was
Speaker 1: being really, really mean and awful to myself, and that
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of almost hardwired. And so I turned
Speaker 1: to Kristin Nef's work on self compassion. I went to
Speaker 1: Kristin Neff's website and I was like, Okay, I should
Speaker 1: definitely look into this. That's why I wanted to have
Speaker 1: Kristin Neff on the show to talk about it, to
Speaker 1: help me on my journey towards being better. It's self compassion,
Speaker 1: and hopefully it will help you as well. Dr Kristin
Speaker 1: Neff is an associate professor of educational psychology at the
Speaker 1: University of Texas at Austin and a pioneer in the
Speaker 1: field of self compassion reserved. Her new book called Fierce
Speaker 1: Self Compassion, How Women can Harness Kindness to Speak Up,
Speaker 1: Claim their Power and Thrive has been released this summer.
Speaker 1: She argues in it that in order to realize the
Speaker 1: full benefits of self compassion, we need to develop both
Speaker 1: its strong and tender side. She's also the author of
Speaker 1: Self Compassion, The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself,
Speaker 1: where she explains how to heal destructive emotional patterns. Please
Speaker 1: enjoy my conversation with Dr Kristen Neff. Hello Kristen, and
Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? I'm
Speaker 1: doing wonderfully. Thank you so much to learn for having
Speaker 1: me on your show. Can we just start by you
Speaker 1: just defining what self compassion is. Absolutely so self compassion.
Speaker 1: It's really just compassion turned inward. So we're familiar with
Speaker 1: what the experience of compassion for someone else's when you know,
Speaker 1: when someone else is struggling, or they're feeling badly about
Speaker 1: themselves and they make a mistake, or you know, have
Speaker 1: some health challenge, you know what it feels like to
Speaker 1: open our heart to someone, to be warm, to be supportive,
Speaker 1: and really, at the heart of compassion is concerned with
Speaker 1: the alleviation of suffering, the desire to help in some
Speaker 1: way So self compassion quite simply is just making a
Speaker 1: U turn and using that same supportive attitude with ourselves. Right,
Speaker 1: so even if we fail or we're feeling inadequate, we
Speaker 1: accept ourselves, We encourage change if that's what's needed. There's
Speaker 1: a sense of kindness and care and connectedness and how
Speaker 1: we relate to ourselves compassionate about alleviating suffering, and then
Speaker 1: how do we turn that inward? It just feels like
Speaker 1: a very something. I'm gonna breathe, and how do we
Speaker 1: alleviate suffering from within? And I was talking to my
Speaker 1: boyfriend last night and I told him I was recording
Speaker 1: the podcast to day and he asked what the topic
Speaker 1: was and I told himself compassion, and he's sort of
Speaker 1: did Devil's advocate? Well, you know what is what if
Speaker 1: you're too compassionate towards yourself and you don't hold yourself
Speaker 1: accountable or you become narcissistic. And then I sent him
Speaker 1: an excerpt from your new book where you distinguish between
Speaker 1: self compassion and self esteem, and he's like, I think
Speaker 1: I was talking about self esteem. Can you address that
Speaker 1: and then talk to us about the difference between self
Speaker 1: compassion and self esteem. Yes, so well. Inherent to compassion
Speaker 1: is connectedness, right, So, Laverne, you'd probably like it if
Speaker 1: I had compassion for you, and you probably wouldn't like
Speaker 1: it if I pitied you. So what's the difference. The
Speaker 1: difference is other people. If I pity you, I'm feeling
Speaker 1: sorry for you, I'm looking down on you, have compassion
Speaker 1: for you. It's like, hey, I've been there, I've gone
Speaker 1: through something similar. So it's the same thing with self compassion.
Speaker 1: It's not self pity. It's not self focused. It's not
Speaker 1: woe is me? You know, because the word self is
Speaker 1: in there, people think it's self focused, but it's actually
Speaker 1: everyone faces life challenges. It's actually not just me. And
Speaker 1: so when we relate to our own struggles and imperfection
Speaker 1: with that more connected, inclusive stance, it's not so much
Speaker 1: about self love as it is just love in general.
Speaker 1: And in fact, if we just turm love outward and
Speaker 1: we care about others and we cut ourselves out of
Speaker 1: the circle of compassion, if we if we're kind to
Speaker 1: others and we treat ourselves like crap, you know, that's
Speaker 1: really self focused, isn't it. That's really not seeing ourselves
Speaker 1: as part of the larger hole, right. And so you
Speaker 1: know what we know about self compassion and self esteem
Speaker 1: is they're kind of related. In other words, if you
Speaker 1: have more self compassion, you're gonna have higher self esteem.
Speaker 1: But what the based on is very different. Self compassion
Speaker 1: is unconditional. Self esteem is a judgment is like, did
Speaker 1: I did I, you know, make my sales target? Was
Speaker 1: I productive enough? How do I look? You know? Did
Speaker 1: I lose the way they wanted to lose? The worth
Speaker 1: that comes from self esteem tends to be conditional, as
Speaker 1: conditioned on success, on what other people think of us.
Speaker 1: It's there for us on the good days, but it's
Speaker 1: a fair weather friend. You know. What happens when we
Speaker 1: fail or we aren't productive or we gain gain that
Speaker 1: way or whatever it is that our self esteem is
Speaker 1: based on, it deserts us. And so there's been a
Speaker 1: lot of research actually comparing the two. And so what
Speaker 1: we know is the sense of self worth that comes
Speaker 1: from self compassion is much less contingent, is much less
Speaker 1: dependent on external circumstances, and therefore it's more stable over time.
Speaker 1: We need to remember that it's not just us. We
Speaker 1: aren't alone. This is part of the shared human experience,
Speaker 1: and really importantly, we need to care about it. We
Speaker 1: need to have desire to help ourselves in some way,
Speaker 1: to hold ourselves, whether we're helping ourselves with warmth and acceptance,
Speaker 1: or maybe we're helping ourselves by saying you better do
Speaker 1: something differently because this isn't working for you. You know.
Speaker 1: I like to say self compassion could be tender or
Speaker 1: can be fierce. It it really just depends on what
Speaker 1: we need to alleviate or suffering gorgeous gorge. We've been
Speaker 1: talking about shared humanity as one of the three elements
Speaker 1: of self compassion, and you name two others. Can you
Speaker 1: talk about those and how how important they are? Yes? So, kindness,
Speaker 1: which is kind of the most obvious, being kind and
Speaker 1: supportive toward ourselves, accepting as opposed to very harshly judgmental,
Speaker 1: a sense of common humanity, remembering that everyone's imperfect and
Speaker 1: everyone leads an imperfect life, as opposed to feeling really
Speaker 1: isolated and separate by our pain and struggles. And also mindfulness.
Speaker 1: Mindfulness actually has to be a part of self compassion
Speaker 1: because could you imagine if you had a new a
Speaker 1: friend who was struggling and you didn't pick up her
Speaker 1: phone calls, or you just like blew her off, like
Speaker 1: I'm busy. I'm sorry, I can't listen to you. You
Speaker 1: know you can't. You couldn't have compassion for your friend.
Speaker 1: And yet we do that to ourselves. We get so
Speaker 1: busy and we're just so focused on problem solving or
Speaker 1: getting through each day that we don't pause to be mindful.
Speaker 1: You aware of the fact that, oh this is really hard.
Speaker 1: You know, what can I do to help myself at
Speaker 1: this moment? Can you define mindfulness? Because mindfulness is a
Speaker 1: word we hear a lot right in wellness space. We
Speaker 1: heard a lot, and I feel like I don't always
Speaker 1: know what it means if I'm being really how do
Speaker 1: you define mindfulness? Right? What I have to say? I'd
Speaker 1: like to steal a line from Bernie Brown. We are
Speaker 1: teaching a workshop together once and she said, Kristen, I
Speaker 1: don't like the word mindfulness is to woo woo. Can
Speaker 1: we rename it courageous presence? And I'm like, that's why
Speaker 1: you're so brilliant, Bernie. So that's what it is, right,
Speaker 1: It's the courage to be present with what is so
Speaker 1: beautif the courage to be present with what is yes.
Speaker 1: It's so we avoid two extremes. One extreme is just
Speaker 1: pretending is not there. I'm gonna look at it, put
Speaker 1: in our head in the sand. I mean the way
Speaker 1: that people do with so much of the suffering in society.
Speaker 1: What's not a problem, right, I'm not going to even
Speaker 1: go there. That's not mindful. At the same time, when
Speaker 1: we're president, it's like we're exaggerating. We aren't lost in
Speaker 1: the drama. There's some spaciousness. It's like, yeah, this this hurts,
Speaker 1: instead of being lost in the paining, like oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is the worst. Seeing everyone catastrophizing, it's like just
Speaker 1: seeing things for what they are, no more and no less.
Speaker 1: I love in your work that you give us concrete
Speaker 1: things because I read you or I watch a speech.
Speaker 1: I'm listening to you now and I'm able to take
Speaker 1: it in and I'm able to embody everything you're saying
Speaker 1: about self compassion and feel it. But then I have
Speaker 1: what you call default mode. I have a default mode
Speaker 1: that is very critical, and I think what I want
Speaker 1: to go to now are the things that get in
Speaker 1: the way of us having self compassion. I think that's
Speaker 1: related to attachment theory, and I think it's related to
Speaker 1: trauma as well. For me, I think a lot of
Speaker 1: my self criticism comes from having been bullied. My mother
Speaker 1: was emotionally abusive, and I think a lot of what
Speaker 1: she was really critical of me in ways to try
Speaker 1: to protect me, right, So that I learned and very
Speaker 1: early that like if I'm self critical, if I sort
Speaker 1: of preemptibly bully myself, then I can be protected and
Speaker 1: safe from a really harsh world or racist world, effectist
Speaker 1: all the things. So my default mode is to be
Speaker 1: highly critical of myself, and it takes it takes a
Speaker 1: lot of work for me not to just immediately go
Speaker 1: to beating myself up like that is my like boom,
Speaker 1: that's where I go, because that's just it's so deeply ingrained.
Speaker 1: And how do you when you do your default mode
Speaker 1: is to be self critical, and like, how do we
Speaker 1: what is the work to like break out of that?
Speaker 1: I guess self criticism its rooted in the desire to
Speaker 1: be safe. So we don't want to beat ourselves up
Speaker 1: for beating ourselves up. Right, Even our parents who are
Speaker 1: often very misguided, you know, they thought they were keeping
Speaker 1: us safe by criticizing us. Of course we know that
Speaker 1: they actually made things worse. It's the exact same thing
Speaker 1: with ourselves. We think we're keeping ourselves safe but beating
Speaker 1: ourselves up criticizing ourselves, but in fact it's just making
Speaker 1: things worse. So you might say that the root of
Speaker 1: the desire to criticize ourself is actually a good one. Ironically,
Speaker 1: is the desire to be safe and to protect ourselves.
Speaker 1: It's just that it's really not effective. So when we
Speaker 1: criticize ourselves, were activating the threat defense system, we increase
Speaker 1: cortisol for instance, that fight or flight response to try
Speaker 1: to feel safe. When we give ourselves compassion for activating
Speaker 1: the parasympathetic nervous system, or you might say, the care
Speaker 1: system and reduces cortisol, and it makes us feel safe
Speaker 1: another way. And that's what the attachment system, the safety
Speaker 1: of care. Right, So when you have a friend or
Speaker 1: your parents put their arms around you and say, hey,
Speaker 1: it's okay, sweetheart, I care for you, that also makes
Speaker 1: us feel safe. So believe it or not quite literally,
Speaker 1: that's what we do with ourselves. Hey it's okay, sweetheart,
Speaker 1: I'm here for you. Right, And we don't want to
Speaker 1: believe that we're perfect when we aren't. You know there
Speaker 1: are things we need to change there, there are real
Speaker 1: dangers in our environment. That's why I like to call this,
Speaker 1: like Mama bear self compassion. You know, sometimes self compassion
Speaker 1: this care is like I'm gonna protect you, but it's
Speaker 1: not coming from a place of you know, because you
Speaker 1: aren't good enough or you aren't worthy unless you change.
Speaker 1: It's like I want you to change because I care
Speaker 1: about you and I want to protect you. It gives
Speaker 1: us the sense of safety that's actually much more effective.
Speaker 1: And um, it's a different frame. It's a different frame
Speaker 1: than like you are a piece of ship you need
Speaker 1: to change and think you are beautiful and worthy and
Speaker 1: deserve you know, all the things. Now it feels like
Speaker 1: a great time for a short break. We'll be right
Speaker 1: back now, we are back, pick you up where we
Speaker 1: left on. It hits me in my gut when I
Speaker 1: think about the trauma piece where I think that the
Speaker 1: attachment piece and the trauma piece for me, that's what
Speaker 1: gets in the way. Yes, and you talk about the
Speaker 1: relationship between attachment theory and how self compassion can be
Speaker 1: a way to sort of fix some of our anxious
Speaker 1: or um where it was anxious and then um, what
Speaker 1: was the other at all acts and avoidance. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: can so. First of all, your intuition that trauma, especially
Speaker 1: family trauma, makes it more difficult, is absolutely true. In fact,
Speaker 1: we even have a term for it. We call it backdraft. Backdraft.
Speaker 1: You know, backdraft is a firefighting term and it refers
Speaker 1: to when you open the doors of a house on fire,
Speaker 1: the fresh air rushes in and the flames rush out,
Speaker 1: and you can actually be quite explosive. So the reason
Speaker 1: firefighters carry those picks, it's probably so they can poke
Speaker 1: hold holes in the house to let the errand more slowly. Well, actually,
Speaker 1: a similar process happens with self compassion. I've had people,
Speaker 1: you know, write me and say, Kristen, thanks for giving
Speaker 1: me one more thing I'm bad at. Like sometimes when
Speaker 1: we practice self compassion, especially especially if we have early
Speaker 1: family trauma, it's scary at first because what's happened is,
Speaker 1: again we've had to shut down our hearts, we had
Speaker 1: to number ourselves. It's almost like when you numb your
Speaker 1: hands and they start to warm up, they start to hurt.
Speaker 1: The same things happens with their hearts. And also the
Speaker 1: attachment system which should have made us feel safe. If
Speaker 1: you have early family trauma didn't make you feel safe,
Speaker 1: quite the opposite, and so this is definitely a barrier
Speaker 1: to people practicing self compassion because it's frightening and it
Speaker 1: can feel safer just to keep ourselves shut down. What
Speaker 1: we're really doing with self compassion is we're reparenting ourselves.
Speaker 1: We're starting to give ourselves unconditional love. You start to
Speaker 1: rely on yourself, you start to feel secure because you
Speaker 1: know that you'll be there for yourself. Right. So there's
Speaker 1: a whole type of therapy called compassion focused therapy that's
Speaker 1: all about using compassion to help people deal with early
Speaker 1: childhood trauma. But again, so just like those firefighters that
Speaker 1: have the pics to let in the air more slowly,
Speaker 1: if you do have a history of trauma, we tell
Speaker 1: people just you just need to go slowly. Maybe you're
Speaker 1: doing one of the meditations on my website and you
Speaker 1: know you're you're doing it and you just become flooded
Speaker 1: with painful memories, or you start dissociating. We know which
Speaker 1: which can happen for people if they have strong back off.
Speaker 1: If you decide, Okay, I'm gonna stop this meditation, not
Speaker 1: because I'm bad at it, but because you know what,
Speaker 1: this isn't what I need right now. This is a
Speaker 1: bit too much, is overwhelming. I'm going to have a
Speaker 1: cup of tea instead to care for myself. If you
Speaker 1: do that, you're still practicing self compassion. And it really
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how you practice self compassion. It can be
Speaker 1: taking a walk, fetting your cat, having to cup of tea.
Speaker 1: You can go slowly, you like to say, go slowly,
Speaker 1: walk farther. Yeah, right, what's really important is to shifting
Speaker 1: attitude in mindset. Why are you doing it? You're doing
Speaker 1: it because you care about yourself and you're trying to
Speaker 1: help yourself be well. Yeah, absolutely, it's a gentle process,
Speaker 1: or it could be too much, and I think it
Speaker 1: can flow down the healing. It's like you're re traumatized
Speaker 1: in the process, right. Absolutely. You said that when our
Speaker 1: hands are numb, it can kind of feel painful. When
Speaker 1: they warm up, it hurts. Yeah, when they warm up,
Speaker 1: it hurts. So it's like a gentle a gentle warming
Speaker 1: by the fire. Yes, And it really is not a destination.
Speaker 1: It's a journey. It's not like you get to this
Speaker 1: point where you're totally self compassionate. It's really moment by moment,
Speaker 1: how are you relating to this particular moment. Normally we
Speaker 1: close down unconsciously, you know, we grab that beer, or
Speaker 1: we just need to put on the TV. We don't
Speaker 1: get any benefit from it. It's really your intention. You know,
Speaker 1: why are you doing it? Are you just doing it mindlessly?
Speaker 1: But if you consciously close and you say, you know,
Speaker 1: this is a little too much for me right now,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do something else, And first of all, you've
Speaker 1: done it out of kindness, and then second of all,
Speaker 1: you remember that, Okay, I'll try to come back to
Speaker 1: this when I have more resources available, and self compassion
Speaker 1: is an amazingly powerful resource to do the work of healing.
Speaker 1: M It's beautiful. What I also love too, because my
Speaker 1: my therapist always says to me, She asked me, where
Speaker 1: do you feel letting your body? She says, it had
Speaker 1: to be embodied. Can you talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: how we can embody so that it's not just an
Speaker 1: idea in our heads, but that it becomes embodied, it
Speaker 1: becomes something that can we can use to shift our
Speaker 1: nervous systems and to regulate our nervous systems. So anytime
Speaker 1: we're dealing with difficult emotions. We actually encourage people if
Speaker 1: they can, to stop thinking about what this situation is
Speaker 1: and just to feel the discomfort in their body. Right,
Speaker 1: the emotions very intense, so times the best thing to
Speaker 1: do is, instead of feeling the emotion itself, actually fill
Speaker 1: your feet, the soles of your feet on the ground.
Speaker 1: Now the way, you're actually distracting yourself and the sensation
Speaker 1: of the emotional pain. You aren't like if you feel
Speaker 1: stabbing in your gut and it's really overwhelming, you actually
Speaker 1: don't want to feel the stabbing in your gut. You
Speaker 1: want to feel the soles of your feet on the ground.
Speaker 1: So you're distracting yourself, you're moving your attention. You can
Speaker 1: do it anywhere, So for instance, nurses often use this
Speaker 1: practice that we've taught when they're all stressed out, you know,
Speaker 1: dealing with the COVID pandemic. These feel the souls of
Speaker 1: their feet as they're walking from room to room. Because
Speaker 1: you always have your feet, you're typically always standing, so
Speaker 1: it's something you can do it any time, and it's
Speaker 1: very good for grounding and stabilizing you. And there's actually
Speaker 1: research that shows it's a very good way to deal
Speaker 1: with overwhelming emotions. Having said that, if it's not so
Speaker 1: overwhelming to go with the physical emotion again the storyline
Speaker 1: of my boyfriend left me or whatever, it is maybe
Speaker 1: too overwhelming, but maybe you can handle feeling that, you know,
Speaker 1: stabbing in your gut. So you can, for instance, just
Speaker 1: put your hands gently over the part of your body
Speaker 1: where you're feeling the pain and the verb would you
Speaker 1: indulge people by doing that? Right now? I'm doing it
Speaker 1: right now. It's always in my gud You can't see
Speaker 1: I'm doing it too. Yeah, And just you just feel
Speaker 1: the warmth of your hands and kind of use the
Speaker 1: pressure that's kind of tender and supportive, and then you
Speaker 1: say some kind words to yourself, like I'm so sorry,
Speaker 1: this is so hard. I'm here for you. Is there
Speaker 1: anything I can do to help You're just like you
Speaker 1: might say to a friend you put your hand on
Speaker 1: their shoulders, I'm so sorry, you know, can I help
Speaker 1: you anyway? Even if there's absolutely nothing you can do,
Speaker 1: When your friend just knows that you're there for her
Speaker 1: and that you love her, it helps the exact same
Speaker 1: thing with ourselves. So maybe we can't solve the problem,
Speaker 1: and it's just you know, ancient, or it's too difficult.
Speaker 1: Just being able to rely on the fact that we
Speaker 1: care and we want to help and support ourselves makes
Speaker 1: a huge difference in our ability to cope. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: Is there is something I can do to help? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm here for you. Aren't those the words we long
Speaker 1: to hear from other people, which end often they for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, they can't say it. Yeah, And I think too,
Speaker 1: like a lot of my life was like when I'm
Speaker 1: when I turned thirty and when I turned forty, and
Speaker 1: I just felt very like I hadn't done what I
Speaker 1: needed to do and what I was here to do.
Speaker 1: When I was just so hard on myself because I
Speaker 1: hadn't achieved what I wanted to achieve, and that was
Speaker 1: so none of that was helpful. It's like repeating the
Speaker 1: cycle of me not getting to where I need to
Speaker 1: go by trying being so critical. It's like it's I'm
Speaker 1: trying to help, but it actually is making things worse.
Speaker 1: So if you think of a newborn child just comes
Speaker 1: out of the womb first day on this earth, I
Speaker 1: think most people just so naturally feel the intrinsic worthiness
Speaker 1: of that newborn child. You don't say to that newborn child. Okay,
Speaker 1: you know, go once you get your college when to
Speaker 1: come back, and then maybe you'll be worthy. We could feel,
Speaker 1: you know, the sanctity of you know, the beautiful, precious
Speaker 1: nature of the life of that newborn child. And that's
Speaker 1: still us. You know, we're still that newborn child in
Speaker 1: many ways, just like we would protect the life of
Speaker 1: that newborn child. You know, we deserve the same kindness,
Speaker 1: care and love that that that newborn child does. And
Speaker 1: really that's what self compassion is is giving ourselves that
Speaker 1: same kind of parental, unconditional, loving, supportive energy. I love it,
Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you. Your new book, it's called
Speaker 1: your new book, it's called Fierce Compassion. How Women can
Speaker 1: harness kindness to speak up, claim their power and thrive.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a bit about why you chose to
Speaker 1: focus on women and gender and in relationship to the
Speaker 1: self compassion in your new book. Yes, yes, So it's
Speaker 1: it's really about harmful effects of genderal socialization. So as
Speaker 1: a trans woman you probably know something about this, right,
Speaker 1: I've talked extensively about this for years yet, So basically
Speaker 1: I talked about there's two faces of self compassion. There's
Speaker 1: two sides of it that I call the fierce and
Speaker 1: the tender side. The tender side is more the side
Speaker 1: of self compassion. We've been talking about the mothering energy,
Speaker 1: the unconditional love and support, and this is what allows
Speaker 1: us just to be with ourselves tenderly, gently. But there's
Speaker 1: also really important fierce side to compassion. Like I said,
Speaker 1: the MoMA bear energy, the warrior energy. You want to
Speaker 1: see someone fierce. You try to threaten a mother's child
Speaker 1: or threaten a Mama bear's child, you know she'll tear
Speaker 1: your head off. So this idea of protection and also
Speaker 1: providing for being willing, willing to sacrifice and do stuff
Speaker 1: to help or to motivate change. But what's happened with
Speaker 1: traditional gender role socialization because we just stuff people in
Speaker 1: the boxes? Right, So people who are you know, born
Speaker 1: at birth as women are supposed to be tender and
Speaker 1: nurturing and kind and gentle. But she better not be
Speaker 1: angry or fierce because we're gonna call her names. But
Speaker 1: people who are born you know, biologically as men, they
Speaker 1: also you know, they're socialized, but they aren't allowed to
Speaker 1: be too tender. You know that they're called sissy, they're
Speaker 1: called names and that really cuts men off from this
Speaker 1: whole beautiful part of their nature because of genderal socialization.
Speaker 1: So really, you might say the whole thesis of the
Speaker 1: book is freeing ourselves from these restrictive gender roles norms,
Speaker 1: and just saying that this these are two energies that
Speaker 1: every single human being needs to develop and integrate and
Speaker 1: harness to help themselves be. Well, it's really about how
Speaker 1: all human beings are harmed by these oppressive gender roles.
Speaker 1: And I really passionately believe that I love it, and
Speaker 1: I prefer the term assigned male at birth or assigned
Speaker 1: female at birth to talk about what what we sort
Speaker 1: of impose on people, right, yes, thank you with that assignment.
Speaker 1: What's really deep to me that when someone is born
Speaker 1: and they have a certain set of genitalian so we
Speaker 1: assign them a gender, and then we have all these
Speaker 1: expectations of how they should be based on that genitalia.
Speaker 1: I've lived it. I was assigned male at birth, and
Speaker 1: there were all these sort of spectators of the power
Speaker 1: is supposed to act, and I was in the system.
Speaker 1: What I learned very early on is if I do
Speaker 1: not conform to those expectations, I will be punished. I
Speaker 1: will literally be beaten by other children. I will be
Speaker 1: beaten and chastised by my parents and teachers. That there
Speaker 1: are violent consequences to not conforming to those expectations, and
Speaker 1: everyone learns that. And if even if you're not transgender,
Speaker 1: you learned very early on that there are consequences to
Speaker 1: not conforming to the expectations, even sist gender people get.
Speaker 1: I really think that if we can move beyond these
Speaker 1: simple binary categories and really just go towards seeing all
Speaker 1: the faces of love, and there's more than just fierce
Speaker 1: and tender, They're unlimited, you know, love manifest in so
Speaker 1: many different ways. Yeah, I think our non binary siblings
Speaker 1: have so much to offer us on this. I think
Speaker 1: that the relationship between self compassion and embracing every aspect
Speaker 1: of ourselves in terms of our gender expression is it's
Speaker 1: the most compassionate thing, because it's like, the judgment of
Speaker 1: I have to repress this masculine part of myself or
Speaker 1: I have to repress this feminine part of myself is
Speaker 1: not compassionate. The self compassionate approach is to be like,
Speaker 1: this is beautiful. This is the beautiful side of myself
Speaker 1: that I have to allow to be more authentic, but
Speaker 1: I have to love all of myself. You're probably also
Speaker 1: noticed in the book, I don't even use the terms
Speaker 1: of masculine and feminine. I use the terms yin and
Speaker 1: young because even the you know, the fact that you
Speaker 1: call the masculine and feminine in a way is already
Speaker 1: messed up. For instance, Mama bear, that's a female energy,
Speaker 1: although we typically think of that ferocity as part of
Speaker 1: the masculine gender role really has nothing to do with gender.
Speaker 1: These these yin and young energies, these gentle and ferienced
Speaker 1: energies that are part of life. We know from Chinese
Speaker 1: philosophy that in order to be healthy and well, we
Speaker 1: need both in and young. They need to be balanced
Speaker 1: and integrated. In fact, the definition of disease is an
Speaker 1: invalid between you and young. And yet we're saying the
Speaker 1: half of the world's population you could only be one
Speaker 1: way and not the other. You know, it's messed up.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I love that, and I think in the
Speaker 1: book what I think. I also appreciate that you delve
Speaker 1: deeply into anger and why it's why it's tricky, and
Speaker 1: you know, as a black woman, you know where and
Speaker 1: you talk about this in the book that we're often
Speaker 1: I've been called an angry black woman many times. Can
Speaker 1: you talk to us a little bit about like the
Speaker 1: difference between like when anger we can become this thing
Speaker 1: that releases the wrong hormones and like becomes detrimental, and
Speaker 1: then when it's useful, and then the relationship between healthy
Speaker 1: anger unhealthy anger. For for women, that's a lot I
Speaker 1: can't And by the way, Levern, I'm talking about this
Speaker 1: not a soone who gets it right all the time,
Speaker 1: but the someone who often gets it wrong. Anger is
Speaker 1: a bit of an issue for me, and I thought
Speaker 1: it was something that I could work with with mindfulness
Speaker 1: and compassion and I could hold so I wouldn't be
Speaker 1: so reactive. And it really wasn't until I fully saw that,
Speaker 1: Wait a sec. It my mom a very side, my
Speaker 1: angry side. That's what's allowed me to accomplish everything I've
Speaker 1: accomplished in the world and helped me raise my artistic
Speaker 1: sun and do so many good things. You don't want
Speaker 1: to throw the baby out with the bathwater, right, It's
Speaker 1: something that we need to honor, really deeply honor that ferocity.
Speaker 1: The main difference between constructive and destructive anger is what's
Speaker 1: its purpose. So constructive anger is aimed at reducing harm,
Speaker 1: alleviating suffering, compassion, right, it's all really so angered and justice.
Speaker 1: Anger at sexual harassment, anger, it um you know, someone
Speaker 1: exploiting someone else. The anger is actually it's not personal, right,
Speaker 1: So when it's constructive, it's just saying this is wrong
Speaker 1: and it needs to stop. Right, and when harnessed in
Speaker 1: that way in the service of justice, it can actually
Speaker 1: be very effective. Destructive anger, on the other hand, is personal.
Speaker 1: It's retaliatory. It's cutting people out of the circle of humanity,
Speaker 1: saying you're badge or evil, I hate you, and that's
Speaker 1: when it becomes destructive. But even constructive anger, even if
Speaker 1: it's really clear and firmed, people still aren't gonna like it,
Speaker 1: especially from a woman, especially from a black woman, because
Speaker 1: it triggers all these stereotypes. So it's not like if
Speaker 1: you use constructive anger, everyone's going to suddenly be okay
Speaker 1: with it. They may still not be okay with it,
Speaker 1: but you'll be okay with it. It doesn't raise your
Speaker 1: cortisol levels, it doesn't leak to the heart problems. It
Speaker 1: actually leaded more effective conflict resolution as long as it's clean,
Speaker 1: and it's aimed at preventing harm as opposed to being
Speaker 1: used to cause harm. That's when it becomes the problem.
Speaker 1: This is just that to be really real here, I
Speaker 1: did this really intense for me because I so much
Speaker 1: of the ways in which I've abdicated for justice publicly.
Speaker 1: I mitigate my anger, or I tried really hard to
Speaker 1: mitigate my anger, like, because I feel like people are
Speaker 1: going to be able to hear me, They're gonna be like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's just angry. She's this black trans woman who's angry.
Speaker 1: And so I'm constantly out in the world going on
Speaker 1: television shows talking about injustice that is infuriating and trying
Speaker 1: to mitigate my tone and mitigate my anger. It's so
Speaker 1: it's like this nuanced thing right around allowing ourselves to
Speaker 1: have righteous anger, to have anger that against injustice, but
Speaker 1: but do it in a way in public so that
Speaker 1: people can still hear us. It's a challenge, is a
Speaker 1: huge challenge that anger has to be modulated in such
Speaker 1: a way so that it doesn't turn inward and said
Speaker 1: that it doesn't become self effacing or self critical. And
Speaker 1: that's where I go, because I will beat myself up
Speaker 1: in a second. I mean so, so it really just
Speaker 1: comes down to the simple idea, is it causing harm
Speaker 1: or preventing harm? Right, So, you might even get angry
Speaker 1: at yourself if you are stuck in a really toxic relationship,
Speaker 1: or maybe you're addicted to a substance and it's really
Speaker 1: harming you, you may need to get quite fierce with yourself,
Speaker 1: even angry. But it's not angry like you are bad,
Speaker 1: you are unworthy. It's not personal. It's just the powerful
Speaker 1: young energy. If this has got to stop, this is harmful. No,
Speaker 1: it feels like it's the difference between shame and guilt.
Speaker 1: That shame is I'm sorry I am a mistake, and
Speaker 1: guilt to that and sorry I made a mistake. So
Speaker 1: then the guilt becomes something that can become adaptive as
Speaker 1: opposed to the shame that becomes like at least to
Speaker 1: depression and suicidal ideations and whatnot. So it feels like
Speaker 1: the anger that we have needs to be about behavior
Speaker 1: and not self. We have love for each other, but
Speaker 1: it is the behavior. The behavior is not okay. That
Speaker 1: it's not that we have anger about. It's a brilliant analogy.
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly. It is, right, It's it's not personal,
Speaker 1: it's not blaming, it's not shaming, but it can be
Speaker 1: quite fierce in terms of its intensity. So I like,
Speaker 1: I've got a picture if you were to go into
Speaker 1: my meditation room right now, I've got a picture of
Speaker 1: the Hindu goddess, colleague, because God some destruction, and she's
Speaker 1: got all these arms and in anach arm is the
Speaker 1: severed head of a person. She's destroyed. But what she
Speaker 1: destroys is illusion. What she destroys is the illusion of separation.
Speaker 1: So that angry energy, that wielding, that fierce sort of
Speaker 1: justice when is aimed at destroying the illusion of separation, right,
Speaker 1: and so racism, sexism, and justice, this is an illusion
Speaker 1: of separation. Right, it's not true. You're actually trying to
Speaker 1: cut through an illusion and you're helping, supposed to harming anger.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's really necessary. The reason why we have to
Speaker 1: get angry is first of all, when you're angry, when
Speaker 1: you're flood with anger, it makes you brave, makes you courageous,
Speaker 1: makes you very focused, and it sends a clear message
Speaker 1: to you and everyone else. This is damn serious. We
Speaker 1: need to pay attention. It sounds that you have to
Speaker 1: be careful in the parlance of trauma resilience, to be
Speaker 1: careful that the anger that we stand our resilient zone
Speaker 1: right when we were angry in within our resiliency and
Speaker 1: not like bumped out into survival or bumped out into
Speaker 1: sort of a trauma response. The fight flighter free exactly,
Speaker 1: very delicate. It's really, this is really, this is high
Speaker 1: level stuff. It's a challenge. I'm not I'm not saying
Speaker 1: this stuff is easy, right, It's not easy. But the
Speaker 1: thing is we want we just want to have all
Speaker 1: all the tools and resources available to us. And you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes you need to go right, Sometimes you need to
Speaker 1: go laugh. Sometimes you need more tenderness, more softness, more
Speaker 1: acceptance or gentleness. Sometimes you need more fierceness, more in
Speaker 1: more action. We're doing something to change the situation. And
Speaker 1: really that's where wisdom comes in. Nowhere from the outside
Speaker 1: can say what's right for you, But you have to
Speaker 1: care enough to ask yourself the question, what is it
Speaker 1: that I need right now? Right? Gorgeous? Oh, honey, has
Speaker 1: that for a little truth? We've got more for you
Speaker 1: after a tiny break. Oh, I'm loving where this conversation
Speaker 1: is going without further Ado. I have to say this
Speaker 1: because you were talking about the goddess with the all
Speaker 1: the heads with Collie. A lot of people who tend
Speaker 1: to be conservative I don't want to talk about racism.
Speaker 1: They feel like whenever we talk about racism or transphobia,
Speaker 1: that we are dividing each other, that just by calling
Speaker 1: out racism, we are dividing each other, and we should
Speaker 1: just never focus on race and just pretend it doesn't exist,
Speaker 1: and that's the way to alleviate racism. So sometimes people
Speaker 1: get confused when I talk about common humanity, which is
Speaker 1: part of self compassion, that the thing that means well,
Speaker 1: all lives matter, as opposed to like black lives matter.
Speaker 1: So mindfulness sees things as they are. It doesn't pretend,
Speaker 1: It doesn't put your head in the sand and pretend
Speaker 1: that that something that's not present, when in fact it is,
Speaker 1: and differences are real. You know, be nice to live
Speaker 1: in a world where there were no differences and no
Speaker 1: one suffered more than another. But that's not the reality
Speaker 1: we live in. So when I talk about common humanity,
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is no one, including ourselves, should be
Speaker 1: cut out of that circle of humanity. Every every human
Speaker 1: being is worthy but compassionate response that in no way,
Speaker 1: shape or form means that all people are the same
Speaker 1: or that all people suffer the same amount. There are
Speaker 1: very real differences based on all sorts of systems of
Speaker 1: oppression and personal history. You know, even just a genetic
Speaker 1: makeup is there's huge variations. So the mindfulness is what
Speaker 1: allows us to see clearly common humanity. In this case,
Speaker 1: you stand together with others in order to say, hey,
Speaker 1: it's not just me. We're going to stand together. And
Speaker 1: this is actually what empowers us. When we feel shame,
Speaker 1: when we let other people shame us because we aren't
Speaker 1: you know, we don't meet their standards, then we feel
Speaker 1: isolated and alone. But when we stand together and say, hey,
Speaker 1: there are hundreds of thousands of people just like me.
Speaker 1: And then when I stand up for myself, I'm not
Speaker 1: just standing up for me, I'm standing up for my
Speaker 1: entire family. Then that gives a strength and empowerment. And
Speaker 1: so mindfulness isn't always peaceful. Mindfulness sometimes wakes us up
Speaker 1: and says, hey, we got to do something in this
Speaker 1: system right to alleviate suffering. You don't know for sure
Speaker 1: what action is going to be called for it's really
Speaker 1: what your aim is, is your aim to alleviate suffering
Speaker 1: or not. I love that. I love that. I feel
Speaker 1: like what's interesting about this moment is that we actually
Speaker 1: often can't agree with what is right. That there's so
Speaker 1: much propaganda and there's so many different sort of media
Speaker 1: sources that are obstucating and spinning other narratives for different purposes,
Speaker 1: so that that piece of mindfulness gets really tricky because
Speaker 1: what reality for me? Right? I think about the um
Speaker 1: all the anti trans bills that are being introduced all
Speaker 1: over the country right now, and they're like, we need
Speaker 1: to protect women's sports like to like like, I'm just
Speaker 1: like creating this reality where like women are threatened by
Speaker 1: trans people, and it's like, that's actually not the reality.
Speaker 1: So we have to be able to sit in the
Speaker 1: in the truth, and so I think to really get
Speaker 1: clear about what the suffering is, right that like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very very important. Of course, it's a process, right,
Speaker 1: and so there's also an open mindedness to mindfulness. It's
Speaker 1: not like a belief system. It's really just a process
Speaker 1: of being open to the truth, open to scene, what's
Speaker 1: the right in front of your eyes, not hiding things,
Speaker 1: not twisting things as much as humanly possible. But you
Speaker 1: also have to open be open to the possibility that
Speaker 1: your view may be wrong. Right, so you also have
Speaker 1: to open to someone else making an argument and saying, well, actually,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe. As you point, if we start being self
Speaker 1: righteous about it, then that also causes problems. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure some of your listeners are thinking, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: how am I going to do? This is so complicated.
Speaker 1: I like to say that the goal of practice is
Speaker 1: simply to be a compassionate mess. This is messy, Social
Speaker 1: justice is messy, Our lives are messy. Every part of
Speaker 1: it is messy. We're gonna get it wrong over and
Speaker 1: over and over again, and we shouldn't actually expect otherwise.
Speaker 1: Self compassion is not about getting it right. It's about
Speaker 1: opening your heart. And so as long as our goal
Speaker 1: is to hold the entire mess with compassion, we drawn
Speaker 1: whatever tools we have available to us, whether it's anger
Speaker 1: or love or tenderness or you know, whatever we need
Speaker 1: in the moment, motivation, acceptance, and we do our best.
Speaker 1: We fall down, and we lovingly pick ourselves up again,
Speaker 1: and we keep on trying. And what happens is you
Speaker 1: learn to be less invested in the outcome. You know
Speaker 1: what if I achieved what's the outcome of my behavior?
Speaker 1: It just kind of the whole process. If I can
Speaker 1: be loving and kind and benevolent towards myself in the process,
Speaker 1: well then I've achieved my goal. It doesn't really matter
Speaker 1: if I've if I'm a mess or not. I love it.
Speaker 1: So I like to end the podcast with the question
Speaker 1: what else is true? And this is taken from my
Speaker 1: my own therapeutic work in the community resiliency model. It's
Speaker 1: about that shift and stay right. So if if I
Speaker 1: am feeling a sharp pain in my stomach, where in
Speaker 1: my body it's a neutral or positive, where in my
Speaker 1: life is a neutral or positive and that can become
Speaker 1: a resource for me. So, um, Professor Christian nef today
Speaker 1: for you, what else is true? What else is true?
Speaker 1: So the first thing that comes to mind is, um,
Speaker 1: it's just my son. I'm sorry. He always cuss my
Speaker 1: mind because he's about to get home in school. But
Speaker 1: you know, this is some the love of my son.
Speaker 1: You know, he's autistic and he's just the most beautiful,
Speaker 1: like authentic human being you ever want to be. He's
Speaker 1: not operating from the place of what do other people
Speaker 1: think of me? He's just himself. How old is he?
Speaker 1: He's he's nineteen, he's nineteen. It's something about him. It's
Speaker 1: just so beautiful and pure and so that that for
Speaker 1: me is a resource. I think I can just kind
Speaker 1: of let go my intellectual professoral life sometimes to know
Speaker 1: what I'm just a mother to him. It just really
Speaker 1: replenishes me. Yea, that is a beautiful What else is true? Beautiful?
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I have so much. I'm so
Speaker 1: moved right now by this conversation. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your work, thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 1: I'm so so grateful for you right now. And your
Speaker 1: new book is Fierce Compassion. How women can harness kindness
Speaker 1: to speak up and claim their power and thrive? Can I? Can?
Speaker 1: I ask you an honest question. So you know, I
Speaker 1: wrote the book, so it's written for women, and in
Speaker 1: terms of genderal socialization as a transwoman, I must have
Speaker 1: operated a little bit differently for you because you were
Speaker 1: socialized in the wrong gender, so to speak. So how
Speaker 1: how did that? How did that strike you? That's a
Speaker 1: really good question. I have to say. When I was
Speaker 1: when I started reading it, I'm gonna be real, honest
Speaker 1: The initial thought was like, oh my gosh, this is
Speaker 1: gonna be some white woman feminist thing that's not intersectional.
Speaker 1: Initially that was my first thought, and then I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: she's acknowledging and continued reading it's like she's acknowledging that
Speaker 1: the experiences of black women are different. And so I think,
Speaker 1: what from my experience, I was constantly failing at being
Speaker 1: masculine and being the young man boy that people wanted
Speaker 1: me to be, and so I felt like I was
Speaker 1: constantly failing. And then when I finally accepted my womanhood
Speaker 1: and transitioned, I was again not feminine enough and then
Speaker 1: failing again, right right, So the gender thing, honestly, for me,
Speaker 1: like with through socialization and then through my acceptance of
Speaker 1: my womanhood, has always been like I'm not enough, I'm failing,
Speaker 1: And I think that's honestly, probably the reality for most
Speaker 1: people is that we're constantly not woman enough for man enough,
Speaker 1: and we're constantly failing, and so we need to just
Speaker 1: throw it all out. Thank you for her for indulging me,
Speaker 1: and I did try to be clear about where I
Speaker 1: was coming from, and it's the only really perspective I
Speaker 1: could write from to be authentic, and I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of different books that could be written depending
Speaker 1: on people's different lived experience. The specificity of you writing
Speaker 1: for assist women didn't take me out as a trans woman, right, Well,
Speaker 1: that's good things. Where can folks find you? Are you
Speaker 1: on social media and all that stuff? Yes? Well, if
Speaker 1: you google self compassion you'll find my website. I have
Speaker 1: a lot of free practices and resources and muscle on Facebook, Twitter,
Speaker 1: I'm just starting up my Instagram account. I'm a little
Speaker 1: late to the game, but probably my website is the
Speaker 1: easiest place to start, and I've got a lot of
Speaker 1: free resources there. So awesome. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: Here's to all of us being a little more self compassionate.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. It's been a great interview to learn.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so grateful for Kristin Neff and her
Speaker 1: work right now, and keep thinking about what gets in
Speaker 1: the way for me at being truly compassionate to myself,
Speaker 1: and trauma can hijack my nervous system, we can hijack
Speaker 1: my whole life. The traumatic response is kind of my default.
Speaker 1: Self criticism is my default, and so the compassion that
Speaker 1: we would have towards other people, that we turn that
Speaker 1: in towards ourselves. And that seems simple, but oh my,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of reasons why it's really difficult.
Speaker 1: It's a gentle process and all this is a gentle process,
Speaker 1: and it's a daily practice us to be mindful and
Speaker 1: to be in kindness towards everyone else. And so the
Speaker 1: self compassion piece is actually really integral to trauma, resilience,
Speaker 1: to healing our attachment issues and all the things that
Speaker 1: you know we've talked about on this podcast. And it's
Speaker 1: also tied to justice and social justice, self compassion, kindness,
Speaker 1: common humanity, and mindfulness. Here's to all that in your
Speaker 1: lives and a day to time, a moment and a time,
Speaker 1: a breath at a time. Thank you for listening to
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe and share
Speaker 1: with everyone you know. Join me next week when I
Speaker 1: talk with internationally renowned researcher and educator Dr Joy Degree
Speaker 1: about intergenera rational trauma. Her book, Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome,
Speaker 1: America's Legacy of Enduring injury and Healing lays the groundwork
Speaker 1: for understanding how the past has influenced the present. You
Speaker 1: can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time,
Speaker 1: stay in the loud. The Laverne Cox Show is a
Speaker 1: production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I
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