1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shawonda 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. I like 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: to say that the goal of practice is simply to 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: be a compassionate mess This is messy, Social justice is messy. 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: Our lives are messy. Every part of it is messy. 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: We're gonna get it wrong over and over and over again, 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: and we shouldn't actually expect otherwise. Hi, everyone, Welcome to 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: the Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. Something a lot 9 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: of people don't know about me is I can be 10 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: really hard on myself, like debilitating lee hard on myself. 11 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: Years ago, in an acting class in New York City 12 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: with Brad Calcatara, Brad would have me do this exercise 13 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: to take on the shell of the bitchiest drag queen 14 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: from RuPaul's Drag Race and to read myself as if 15 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, I was reading someone else with all the 16 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: negative things that I say about myself. And so I 17 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: commenced doing the exercise and fully committing because that's what 18 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: I do as an actor. And after Brad said cut, 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: I broke down into tears because I had witnesses a 20 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: class full of people who witnessed how hard I am 21 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: on myself, all the horrible, awful things I say to 22 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: myself about myself. Self criticism is something that has been 23 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: a theme in my life. It's something that I I 24 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: think I've used as a survival strategy. And last year, 25 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: when the pandemic started and I was alone a lot, 26 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: I realized that all of those old self critical thoughts 27 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: were creeping back in all of a sudden, I was 28 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: being really, really mean and awful to myself, and that 29 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:01,559 Speaker 1: I'm just kind of almost hardwired. And so I turned 30 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: to Kristin Nef's work on self compassion. I went to 31 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: Kristin Neff's website and I was like, Okay, I should 32 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: definitely look into this. That's why I wanted to have 33 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: Kristin Neff on the show to talk about it, to 34 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: help me on my journey towards being better. It's self compassion, 35 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: and hopefully it will help you as well. Dr Kristin 36 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: Neff is an associate professor of educational psychology at the 37 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: University of Texas at Austin and a pioneer in the 38 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: field of self compassion reserved. Her new book called Fierce 39 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: Self Compassion, How Women can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, 40 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: Claim their Power and Thrive has been released this summer. 41 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: She argues in it that in order to realize the 42 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: full benefits of self compassion, we need to develop both 43 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: its strong and tender side. She's also the author of 44 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: Self Compassion, The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself, 45 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: where she explains how to heal destructive emotional patterns. Please 46 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: enjoy my conversation with Dr Kristen Neff. Hello Kristen, and 47 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? I'm 48 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: doing wonderfully. Thank you so much to learn for having 49 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: me on your show. Can we just start by you 50 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: just defining what self compassion is. Absolutely so self compassion. 51 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: It's really just compassion turned inward. So we're familiar with 52 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: what the experience of compassion for someone else's when you know, 53 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: when someone else is struggling, or they're feeling badly about 54 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: themselves and they make a mistake, or you know, have 55 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: some health challenge, you know what it feels like to 56 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: open our heart to someone, to be warm, to be supportive, 57 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: and really, at the heart of compassion is concerned with 58 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: the alleviation of suffering, the desire to help in some 59 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: way So self compassion quite simply is just making a 60 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: U turn and using that same supportive attitude with ourselves. Right, 61 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: so even if we fail or we're feeling inadequate, we 62 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: accept ourselves, We encourage change if that's what's needed. There's 63 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: a sense of kindness and care and connectedness and how 64 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: we relate to ourselves compassionate about alleviating suffering, and then 65 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: how do we turn that inward? It just feels like 66 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: a very something. I'm gonna breathe, and how do we 67 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: alleviate suffering from within? And I was talking to my 68 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: boyfriend last night and I told him I was recording 69 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: the podcast to day and he asked what the topic 70 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: was and I told himself compassion, and he's sort of 71 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: did Devil's advocate? Well, you know what is what if 72 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: you're too compassionate towards yourself and you don't hold yourself 73 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: accountable or you become narcissistic. And then I sent him 74 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: an excerpt from your new book where you distinguish between 75 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: self compassion and self esteem, and he's like, I think 76 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: I was talking about self esteem. Can you address that 77 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: and then talk to us about the difference between self 78 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: compassion and self esteem. Yes, so well. Inherent to compassion 79 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: is connectedness, right, So, Laverne, you'd probably like it if 80 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: I had compassion for you, and you probably wouldn't like 81 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: it if I pitied you. So what's the difference. The 82 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: difference is other people. If I pity you, I'm feeling 83 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: sorry for you, I'm looking down on you, have compassion 84 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: for you. It's like, hey, I've been there, I've gone 85 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: through something similar. So it's the same thing with self compassion. 86 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: It's not self pity. It's not self focused. It's not 87 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: woe is me? You know, because the word self is 88 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: in there, people think it's self focused, but it's actually 89 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: everyone faces life challenges. It's actually not just me. And 90 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: so when we relate to our own struggles and imperfection 91 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: with that more connected, inclusive stance, it's not so much 92 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: about self love as it is just love in general. 93 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: And in fact, if we just turm love outward and 94 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: we care about others and we cut ourselves out of 95 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: the circle of compassion, if we if we're kind to 96 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: others and we treat ourselves like crap, you know, that's 97 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: really self focused, isn't it. That's really not seeing ourselves 98 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: as part of the larger hole, right. And so you 99 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: know what we know about self compassion and self esteem 100 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 1: is they're kind of related. In other words, if you 101 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: have more self compassion, you're gonna have higher self esteem. 102 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: But what the based on is very different. Self compassion 103 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: is unconditional. Self esteem is a judgment is like, did 104 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: I did I, you know, make my sales target? Was 105 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: I productive enough? How do I look? You know? Did 106 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: I lose the way they wanted to lose? The worth 107 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: that comes from self esteem tends to be conditional, as 108 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: conditioned on success, on what other people think of us. 109 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: It's there for us on the good days, but it's 110 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: a fair weather friend. You know. What happens when we 111 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: fail or we aren't productive or we gain gain that 112 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: way or whatever it is that our self esteem is 113 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: based on, it deserts us. And so there's been a 114 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: lot of research actually comparing the two. And so what 115 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: we know is the sense of self worth that comes 116 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: from self compassion is much less contingent, is much less 117 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: dependent on external circumstances, and therefore it's more stable over time. 118 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: We need to remember that it's not just us. We 119 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: aren't alone. This is part of the shared human experience, 120 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: and really importantly, we need to care about it. We 121 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: need to have desire to help ourselves in some way, 122 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: to hold ourselves, whether we're helping ourselves with warmth and acceptance, 123 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: or maybe we're helping ourselves by saying you better do 124 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: something differently because this isn't working for you. You know. 125 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: I like to say self compassion could be tender or 126 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: can be fierce. It it really just depends on what 127 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: we need to alleviate or suffering gorgeous gorge. We've been 128 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: talking about shared humanity as one of the three elements 129 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: of self compassion, and you name two others. Can you 130 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: talk about those and how how important they are? Yes? So, kindness, 131 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: which is kind of the most obvious, being kind and 132 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: supportive toward ourselves, accepting as opposed to very harshly judgmental, 133 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: a sense of common humanity, remembering that everyone's imperfect and 134 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: everyone leads an imperfect life, as opposed to feeling really 135 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: isolated and separate by our pain and struggles. And also mindfulness. 136 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: Mindfulness actually has to be a part of self compassion 137 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: because could you imagine if you had a new a 138 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: friend who was struggling and you didn't pick up her 139 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: phone calls, or you just like blew her off, like 140 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: I'm busy. I'm sorry, I can't listen to you. You 141 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: know you can't. You couldn't have compassion for your friend. 142 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: And yet we do that to ourselves. We get so 143 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: busy and we're just so focused on problem solving or 144 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: getting through each day that we don't pause to be mindful. 145 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: You aware of the fact that, oh this is really hard. 146 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: You know, what can I do to help myself at 147 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: this moment? Can you define mindfulness? Because mindfulness is a 148 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: word we hear a lot right in wellness space. We 149 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: heard a lot, and I feel like I don't always 150 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: know what it means if I'm being really how do 151 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: you define mindfulness? Right? What I have to say? I'd 152 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: like to steal a line from Bernie Brown. We are 153 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: teaching a workshop together once and she said, Kristen, I 154 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: don't like the word mindfulness is to woo woo. Can 155 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: we rename it courageous presence? And I'm like, that's why 156 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: you're so brilliant, Bernie. So that's what it is, right, 157 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: It's the courage to be present with what is so 158 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: beautif the courage to be present with what is yes. 159 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: It's so we avoid two extremes. One extreme is just 160 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: pretending is not there. I'm gonna look at it, put 161 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: in our head in the sand. I mean the way 162 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: that people do with so much of the suffering in society. 163 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: What's not a problem, right, I'm not going to even 164 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: go there. That's not mindful. At the same time, when 165 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: we're president, it's like we're exaggerating. We aren't lost in 166 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: the drama. There's some spaciousness. It's like, yeah, this this hurts, 167 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: instead of being lost in the paining, like oh my god, 168 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: this is the worst. Seeing everyone catastrophizing, it's like just 169 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: seeing things for what they are, no more and no less. 170 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: I love in your work that you give us concrete 171 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: things because I read you or I watch a speech. 172 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: I'm listening to you now and I'm able to take 173 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: it in and I'm able to embody everything you're saying 174 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: about self compassion and feel it. But then I have 175 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: what you call default mode. I have a default mode 176 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: that is very critical, and I think what I want 177 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: to go to now are the things that get in 178 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: the way of us having self compassion. I think that's 179 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: related to attachment theory, and I think it's related to 180 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: trauma as well. For me, I think a lot of 181 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: my self criticism comes from having been bullied. My mother 182 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: was emotionally abusive, and I think a lot of what 183 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: she was really critical of me in ways to try 184 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: to protect me, right, So that I learned and very 185 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: early that like if I'm self critical, if I sort 186 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: of preemptibly bully myself, then I can be protected and 187 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: safe from a really harsh world or racist world, effectist 188 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: all the things. So my default mode is to be 189 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: highly critical of myself, and it takes it takes a 190 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: lot of work for me not to just immediately go 191 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: to beating myself up like that is my like boom, 192 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: that's where I go, because that's just it's so deeply ingrained. 193 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: And how do you when you do your default mode 194 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: is to be self critical, and like, how do we 195 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: what is the work to like break out of that? 196 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: I guess self criticism its rooted in the desire to 197 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: be safe. So we don't want to beat ourselves up 198 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: for beating ourselves up. Right, Even our parents who are 199 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 1: often very misguided, you know, they thought they were keeping 200 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: us safe by criticizing us. Of course we know that 201 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: they actually made things worse. It's the exact same thing 202 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: with ourselves. We think we're keeping ourselves safe but beating 203 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: ourselves up criticizing ourselves, but in fact it's just making 204 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: things worse. So you might say that the root of 205 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: the desire to criticize ourself is actually a good one. Ironically, 206 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: is the desire to be safe and to protect ourselves. 207 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: It's just that it's really not effective. So when we 208 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: criticize ourselves, were activating the threat defense system, we increase 209 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: cortisol for instance, that fight or flight response to try 210 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: to feel safe. When we give ourselves compassion for activating 211 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: the parasympathetic nervous system, or you might say, the care 212 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: system and reduces cortisol, and it makes us feel safe 213 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: another way. And that's what the attachment system, the safety 214 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: of care. Right, So when you have a friend or 215 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: your parents put their arms around you and say, hey, 216 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: it's okay, sweetheart, I care for you, that also makes 217 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: us feel safe. So believe it or not quite literally, 218 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: that's what we do with ourselves. Hey it's okay, sweetheart, 219 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: I'm here for you. Right, And we don't want to 220 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: believe that we're perfect when we aren't. You know there 221 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: are things we need to change there, there are real 222 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 1: dangers in our environment. That's why I like to call this, 223 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,599 Speaker 1: like Mama bear self compassion. You know, sometimes self compassion 224 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: this care is like I'm gonna protect you, but it's 225 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: not coming from a place of you know, because you 226 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: aren't good enough or you aren't worthy unless you change. 227 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: It's like I want you to change because I care 228 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: about you and I want to protect you. It gives 229 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: us the sense of safety that's actually much more effective. 230 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: And um, it's a different frame. It's a different frame 231 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: than like you are a piece of ship you need 232 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: to change and think you are beautiful and worthy and 233 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: deserve you know, all the things. Now it feels like 234 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: a great time for a short break. We'll be right 235 00:12:44,440 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: back now, we are back, pick you up where we 236 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: left on. It hits me in my gut when I 237 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: think about the trauma piece where I think that the 238 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: attachment piece and the trauma piece for me, that's what 239 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: gets in the way. Yes, and you talk about the 240 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: relationship between attachment theory and how self compassion can be 241 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: a way to sort of fix some of our anxious 242 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: or um where it was anxious and then um, what 243 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: was the other at all acts and avoidance. Yeah, I 244 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: can so. First of all, your intuition that trauma, especially 245 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: family trauma, makes it more difficult, is absolutely true. In fact, 246 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: we even have a term for it. We call it backdraft. Backdraft. 247 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: You know, backdraft is a firefighting term and it refers 248 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: to when you open the doors of a house on fire, 249 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: the fresh air rushes in and the flames rush out, 250 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: and you can actually be quite explosive. So the reason 251 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: firefighters carry those picks, it's probably so they can poke 252 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: hold holes in the house to let the errand more slowly. Well, actually, 253 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: a similar process happens with self compassion. I've had people, 254 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: you know, write me and say, Kristen, thanks for giving 255 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: me one more thing I'm bad at. Like sometimes when 256 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: we practice self compassion, especially especially if we have early 257 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: family trauma, it's scary at first because what's happened is, 258 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: again we've had to shut down our hearts, we had 259 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: to number ourselves. It's almost like when you numb your 260 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: hands and they start to warm up, they start to hurt. 261 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: The same things happens with their hearts. And also the 262 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: attachment system which should have made us feel safe. If 263 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: you have early family trauma didn't make you feel safe, 264 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: quite the opposite, and so this is definitely a barrier 265 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: to people practicing self compassion because it's frightening and it 266 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: can feel safer just to keep ourselves shut down. What 267 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: we're really doing with self compassion is we're reparenting ourselves. 268 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: We're starting to give ourselves unconditional love. You start to 269 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: rely on yourself, you start to feel secure because you 270 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: know that you'll be there for yourself. Right. So there's 271 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: a whole type of therapy called compassion focused therapy that's 272 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: all about using compassion to help people deal with early 273 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: childhood trauma. But again, so just like those firefighters that 274 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: have the pics to let in the air more slowly, 275 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: if you do have a history of trauma, we tell 276 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: people just you just need to go slowly. Maybe you're 277 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: doing one of the meditations on my website and you 278 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: know you're you're doing it and you just become flooded 279 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: with painful memories, or you start dissociating. We know which 280 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: which can happen for people if they have strong back off. 281 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: If you decide, Okay, I'm gonna stop this meditation, not 282 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: because I'm bad at it, but because you know what, 283 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: this isn't what I need right now. This is a 284 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: bit too much, is overwhelming. I'm going to have a 285 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: cup of tea instead to care for myself. If you 286 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: do that, you're still practicing self compassion. And it really 287 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: doesn't matter how you practice self compassion. It can be 288 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: taking a walk, fetting your cat, having to cup of tea. 289 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: You can go slowly, you like to say, go slowly, 290 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: walk farther. Yeah, right, what's really important is to shifting 291 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: attitude in mindset. Why are you doing it? You're doing 292 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: it because you care about yourself and you're trying to 293 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:16,359 Speaker 1: help yourself be well. Yeah, absolutely, it's a gentle process, 294 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: or it could be too much, and I think it 295 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: can flow down the healing. It's like you're re traumatized 296 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: in the process, right. Absolutely. You said that when our 297 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: hands are numb, it can kind of feel painful. When 298 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: they warm up, it hurts. Yeah, when they warm up, 299 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: it hurts. So it's like a gentle a gentle warming 300 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: by the fire. Yes, And it really is not a destination. 301 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: It's a journey. It's not like you get to this 302 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: point where you're totally self compassionate. It's really moment by moment, 303 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: how are you relating to this particular moment. Normally we 304 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: close down unconsciously, you know, we grab that beer, or 305 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: we just need to put on the TV. We don't 306 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: get any benefit from it. It's really your intention. You know, 307 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: why are you doing it? Are you just doing it mindlessly? 308 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: But if you consciously close and you say, you know, 309 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: this is a little too much for me right now, 310 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do something else, And first of all, you've 311 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: done it out of kindness, and then second of all, 312 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: you remember that, Okay, I'll try to come back to 313 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: this when I have more resources available, and self compassion 314 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: is an amazingly powerful resource to do the work of healing. 315 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: M It's beautiful. What I also love too, because my 316 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: my therapist always says to me, She asked me, where 317 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: do you feel letting your body? She says, it had 318 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: to be embodied. Can you talk a little bit about 319 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: how we can embody so that it's not just an 320 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: idea in our heads, but that it becomes embodied, it 321 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: becomes something that can we can use to shift our 322 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: nervous systems and to regulate our nervous systems. So anytime 323 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: we're dealing with difficult emotions. We actually encourage people if 324 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: they can, to stop thinking about what this situation is 325 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: and just to feel the discomfort in their body. Right, 326 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: the emotions very intense, so times the best thing to 327 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: do is, instead of feeling the emotion itself, actually fill 328 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: your feet, the soles of your feet on the ground. 329 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: Now the way, you're actually distracting yourself and the sensation 330 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: of the emotional pain. You aren't like if you feel 331 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: stabbing in your gut and it's really overwhelming, you actually 332 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: don't want to feel the stabbing in your gut. You 333 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: want to feel the soles of your feet on the ground. 334 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: So you're distracting yourself, you're moving your attention. You can 335 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: do it anywhere, So for instance, nurses often use this 336 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 1: practice that we've taught when they're all stressed out, you know, 337 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: dealing with the COVID pandemic. These feel the souls of 338 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: their feet as they're walking from room to room. Because 339 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: you always have your feet, you're typically always standing, so 340 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: it's something you can do it any time, and it's 341 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: very good for grounding and stabilizing you. And there's actually 342 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: research that shows it's a very good way to deal 343 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: with overwhelming emotions. Having said that, if it's not so 344 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: overwhelming to go with the physical emotion again the storyline 345 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: of my boyfriend left me or whatever, it is maybe 346 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: too overwhelming, but maybe you can handle feeling that, you know, 347 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: stabbing in your gut. So you can, for instance, just 348 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: put your hands gently over the part of your body 349 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: where you're feeling the pain and the verb would you 350 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: indulge people by doing that? Right now? I'm doing it 351 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: right now. It's always in my gud You can't see 352 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: I'm doing it too. Yeah, And just you just feel 353 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: the warmth of your hands and kind of use the 354 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: pressure that's kind of tender and supportive, and then you 355 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 1: say some kind words to yourself, like I'm so sorry, 356 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: this is so hard. I'm here for you. Is there 357 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: anything I can do to help You're just like you 358 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: might say to a friend you put your hand on 359 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: their shoulders, I'm so sorry, you know, can I help 360 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: you anyway? Even if there's absolutely nothing you can do, 361 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: When your friend just knows that you're there for her 362 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: and that you love her, it helps the exact same 363 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: thing with ourselves. So maybe we can't solve the problem, 364 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: and it's just you know, ancient, or it's too difficult. 365 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: Just being able to rely on the fact that we 366 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: care and we want to help and support ourselves makes 367 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: a huge difference in our ability to cope. I'm so sorry. 368 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: Is there is something I can do to help? Yeah, 369 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: I'm here for you. Aren't those the words we long 370 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: to hear from other people, which end often they for 371 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: whatever reason, they can't say it. Yeah, And I think too, 372 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: like a lot of my life was like when I'm 373 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: when I turned thirty and when I turned forty, and 374 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: I just felt very like I hadn't done what I 375 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: needed to do and what I was here to do. 376 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: When I was just so hard on myself because I 377 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: hadn't achieved what I wanted to achieve, and that was 378 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: so none of that was helpful. It's like repeating the 379 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: cycle of me not getting to where I need to 380 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: go by trying being so critical. It's like it's I'm 381 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: trying to help, but it actually is making things worse. 382 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: So if you think of a newborn child just comes 383 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: out of the womb first day on this earth, I 384 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: think most people just so naturally feel the intrinsic worthiness 385 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: of that newborn child. You don't say to that newborn child. Okay, 386 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, go once you get your college when to 387 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: come back, and then maybe you'll be worthy. We could feel, 388 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: you know, the sanctity of you know, the beautiful, precious 389 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: nature of the life of that newborn child. And that's 390 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: still us. You know, we're still that newborn child in 391 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: many ways, just like we would protect the life of 392 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: that newborn child. You know, we deserve the same kindness, 393 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: care and love that that that newborn child does. And 394 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: really that's what self compassion is is giving ourselves that 395 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: same kind of parental, unconditional, loving, supportive energy. I love it, 396 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you. Your new book, it's called 397 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: your new book, it's called Fierce Compassion. How Women can 398 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: harness kindness to speak up, claim their power and thrive. 399 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: Can you talk a bit about why you chose to 400 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: focus on women and gender and in relationship to the 401 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: self compassion in your new book. Yes, yes, So it's 402 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: it's really about harmful effects of genderal socialization. So as 403 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: a trans woman you probably know something about this, right, 404 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: I've talked extensively about this for years yet, So basically 405 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: I talked about there's two faces of self compassion. There's 406 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: two sides of it that I call the fierce and 407 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: the tender side. The tender side is more the side 408 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: of self compassion. We've been talking about the mothering energy, 409 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: the unconditional love and support, and this is what allows 410 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: us just to be with ourselves tenderly, gently. But there's 411 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: also really important fierce side to compassion. Like I said, 412 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: the MoMA bear energy, the warrior energy. You want to 413 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: see someone fierce. You try to threaten a mother's child 414 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: or threaten a Mama bear's child, you know she'll tear 415 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: your head off. So this idea of protection and also 416 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: providing for being willing, willing to sacrifice and do stuff 417 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: to help or to motivate change. But what's happened with 418 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: traditional gender role socialization because we just stuff people in 419 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: the boxes? Right, So people who are you know, born 420 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: at birth as women are supposed to be tender and 421 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: nurturing and kind and gentle. But she better not be 422 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: angry or fierce because we're gonna call her names. But 423 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: people who are born you know, biologically as men, they 424 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: also you know, they're socialized, but they aren't allowed to 425 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: be too tender. You know that they're called sissy, they're 426 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: called names and that really cuts men off from this 427 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: whole beautiful part of their nature because of genderal socialization. 428 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: So really, you might say the whole thesis of the 429 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: book is freeing ourselves from these restrictive gender roles norms, 430 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: and just saying that this these are two energies that 431 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: every single human being needs to develop and integrate and 432 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: harness to help themselves be. Well, it's really about how 433 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: all human beings are harmed by these oppressive gender roles. 434 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: And I really passionately believe that I love it, and 435 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: I prefer the term assigned male at birth or assigned 436 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: female at birth to talk about what what we sort 437 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: of impose on people, right, yes, thank you with that assignment. 438 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: What's really deep to me that when someone is born 439 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: and they have a certain set of genitalian so we 440 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: assign them a gender, and then we have all these 441 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: expectations of how they should be based on that genitalia. 442 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: I've lived it. I was assigned male at birth, and 443 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: there were all these sort of spectators of the power 444 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: is supposed to act, and I was in the system. 445 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: What I learned very early on is if I do 446 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,719 Speaker 1: not conform to those expectations, I will be punished. I 447 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: will literally be beaten by other children. I will be 448 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: beaten and chastised by my parents and teachers. That there 449 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: are violent consequences to not conforming to those expectations, and 450 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: everyone learns that. And if even if you're not transgender, 451 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 1: you learned very early on that there are consequences to 452 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: not conforming to the expectations, even sist gender people get. 453 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: I really think that if we can move beyond these 454 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: simple binary categories and really just go towards seeing all 455 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: the faces of love, and there's more than just fierce 456 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 1: and tender, They're unlimited, you know, love manifest in so 457 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: many different ways. Yeah, I think our non binary siblings 458 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: have so much to offer us on this. I think 459 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: that the relationship between self compassion and embracing every aspect 460 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: of ourselves in terms of our gender expression is it's 461 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: the most compassionate thing, because it's like, the judgment of 462 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: I have to repress this masculine part of myself or 463 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: I have to repress this feminine part of myself is 464 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: not compassionate. The self compassionate approach is to be like, 465 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: this is beautiful. This is the beautiful side of myself 466 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: that I have to allow to be more authentic, but 467 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: I have to love all of myself. You're probably also 468 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: noticed in the book, I don't even use the terms 469 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: of masculine and feminine. I use the terms yin and 470 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: young because even the you know, the fact that you 471 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: call the masculine and feminine in a way is already 472 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: messed up. For instance, Mama bear, that's a female energy, 473 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: although we typically think of that ferocity as part of 474 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: the masculine gender role really has nothing to do with gender. 475 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: These these yin and young energies, these gentle and ferienced 476 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: energies that are part of life. We know from Chinese 477 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: philosophy that in order to be healthy and well, we 478 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: need both in and young. They need to be balanced 479 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: and integrated. In fact, the definition of disease is an 480 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: invalid between you and young. And yet we're saying the 481 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: half of the world's population you could only be one 482 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: way and not the other. You know, it's messed up. 483 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: Thank you. I love that, and I think in the 484 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: book what I think. I also appreciate that you delve 485 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: deeply into anger and why it's why it's tricky, and 486 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: you know, as a black woman, you know where and 487 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: you talk about this in the book that we're often 488 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: I've been called an angry black woman many times. Can 489 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: you talk to us a little bit about like the 490 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: difference between like when anger we can become this thing 491 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: that releases the wrong hormones and like becomes detrimental, and 492 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: then when it's useful, and then the relationship between healthy 493 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: anger unhealthy anger. For for women, that's a lot I 494 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: can't And by the way, Levern, I'm talking about this 495 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: not a soone who gets it right all the time, 496 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: but the someone who often gets it wrong. Anger is 497 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: a bit of an issue for me, and I thought 498 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: it was something that I could work with with mindfulness 499 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: and compassion and I could hold so I wouldn't be 500 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: so reactive. And it really wasn't until I fully saw that, 501 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: Wait a sec. It my mom a very side, my 502 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: angry side. That's what's allowed me to accomplish everything I've 503 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: accomplished in the world and helped me raise my artistic 504 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: sun and do so many good things. You don't want 505 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: to throw the baby out with the bathwater, right, It's 506 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: something that we need to honor, really deeply honor that ferocity. 507 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: The main difference between constructive and destructive anger is what's 508 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: its purpose. So constructive anger is aimed at reducing harm, 509 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: alleviating suffering, compassion, right, it's all really so angered and justice. 510 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: Anger at sexual harassment, anger, it um you know, someone 511 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,959 Speaker 1: exploiting someone else. The anger is actually it's not personal, right, 512 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,959 Speaker 1: So when it's constructive, it's just saying this is wrong 513 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: and it needs to stop. Right, and when harnessed in 514 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,719 Speaker 1: that way in the service of justice, it can actually 515 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 1: be very effective. Destructive anger, on the other hand, is personal. 516 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: It's retaliatory. It's cutting people out of the circle of humanity, 517 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: saying you're badge or evil, I hate you, and that's 518 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: when it becomes destructive. But even constructive anger, even if 519 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: it's really clear and firmed, people still aren't gonna like it, 520 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: especially from a woman, especially from a black woman, because 521 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: it triggers all these stereotypes. So it's not like if 522 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: you use constructive anger, everyone's going to suddenly be okay 523 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: with it. They may still not be okay with it, 524 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: but you'll be okay with it. It doesn't raise your 525 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: cortisol levels, it doesn't leak to the heart problems. It 526 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: actually leaded more effective conflict resolution as long as it's clean, 527 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: and it's aimed at preventing harm as opposed to being 528 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: used to cause harm. That's when it becomes the problem. 529 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: This is just that to be really real here, I 530 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: did this really intense for me because I so much 531 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: of the ways in which I've abdicated for justice publicly. 532 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: I mitigate my anger, or I tried really hard to 533 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: mitigate my anger, like, because I feel like people are 534 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: going to be able to hear me, They're gonna be like, oh, 535 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: she's just angry. She's this black trans woman who's angry. 536 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,239 Speaker 1: And so I'm constantly out in the world going on 537 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: television shows talking about injustice that is infuriating and trying 538 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: to mitigate my tone and mitigate my anger. It's so 539 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: it's like this nuanced thing right around allowing ourselves to 540 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: have righteous anger, to have anger that against injustice, but 541 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: but do it in a way in public so that 542 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: people can still hear us. It's a challenge, is a 543 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: huge challenge that anger has to be modulated in such 544 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: a way so that it doesn't turn inward and said 545 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: that it doesn't become self effacing or self critical. And 546 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: that's where I go, because I will beat myself up 547 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: in a second. I mean so, so it really just 548 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: comes down to the simple idea, is it causing harm 549 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: or preventing harm? Right, So, you might even get angry 550 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: at yourself if you are stuck in a really toxic relationship, 551 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: or maybe you're addicted to a substance and it's really 552 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: harming you, you may need to get quite fierce with yourself, 553 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: even angry. But it's not angry like you are bad, 554 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: you are unworthy. It's not personal. It's just the powerful 555 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: young energy. If this has got to stop, this is harmful. No, 556 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: it feels like it's the difference between shame and guilt. 557 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: That shame is I'm sorry I am a mistake, and 558 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: guilt to that and sorry I made a mistake. So 559 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: then the guilt becomes something that can become adaptive as 560 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: opposed to the shame that becomes like at least to 561 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: depression and suicidal ideations and whatnot. So it feels like 562 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: the anger that we have needs to be about behavior 563 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: and not self. We have love for each other, but 564 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: it is the behavior. The behavior is not okay. That 565 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: it's not that we have anger about. It's a brilliant analogy. 566 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly. It is, right, It's it's not personal, 567 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: it's not blaming, it's not shaming, but it can be 568 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: quite fierce in terms of its intensity. So I like, 569 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: I've got a picture if you were to go into 570 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: my meditation room right now, I've got a picture of 571 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: the Hindu goddess, colleague, because God some destruction, and she's 572 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: got all these arms and in anach arm is the 573 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: severed head of a person. She's destroyed. But what she 574 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: destroys is illusion. What she destroys is the illusion of separation. 575 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: So that angry energy, that wielding, that fierce sort of 576 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: justice when is aimed at destroying the illusion of separation, right, 577 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: and so racism, sexism, and justice, this is an illusion 578 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: of separation. Right, it's not true. You're actually trying to 579 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: cut through an illusion and you're helping, supposed to harming anger. 580 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's really necessary. The reason why we have to 581 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: get angry is first of all, when you're angry, when 582 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: you're flood with anger, it makes you brave, makes you courageous, 583 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: makes you very focused, and it sends a clear message 584 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: to you and everyone else. This is damn serious. We 585 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: need to pay attention. It sounds that you have to 586 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: be careful in the parlance of trauma resilience, to be 587 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: careful that the anger that we stand our resilient zone 588 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: right when we were angry in within our resiliency and 589 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: not like bumped out into survival or bumped out into 590 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: sort of a trauma response. The fight flighter free exactly, 591 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: very delicate. It's really, this is really, this is high 592 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: level stuff. It's a challenge. I'm not I'm not saying 593 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: this stuff is easy, right, It's not easy. But the 594 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: thing is we want we just want to have all 595 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: all the tools and resources available to us. And you know, 596 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: sometimes you need to go right, Sometimes you need to 597 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: go laugh. Sometimes you need more tenderness, more softness, more 598 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: acceptance or gentleness. Sometimes you need more fierceness, more in 599 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: more action. We're doing something to change the situation. And 600 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: really that's where wisdom comes in. Nowhere from the outside 601 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: can say what's right for you, But you have to 602 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: care enough to ask yourself the question, what is it 603 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: that I need right now? Right? Gorgeous? Oh, honey, has 604 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: that for a little truth? We've got more for you 605 00:32:54,160 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: after a tiny break. Oh, I'm loving where this conversation 606 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: is going without further Ado. I have to say this 607 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: because you were talking about the goddess with the all 608 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: the heads with Collie. A lot of people who tend 609 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: to be conservative I don't want to talk about racism. 610 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: They feel like whenever we talk about racism or transphobia, 611 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: that we are dividing each other, that just by calling 612 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: out racism, we are dividing each other, and we should 613 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: just never focus on race and just pretend it doesn't exist, 614 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: and that's the way to alleviate racism. So sometimes people 615 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: get confused when I talk about common humanity, which is 616 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: part of self compassion, that the thing that means well, 617 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: all lives matter, as opposed to like black lives matter. 618 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: So mindfulness sees things as they are. It doesn't pretend, 619 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't put your head in the sand and pretend 620 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: that that something that's not present, when in fact it is, 621 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: and differences are real. You know, be nice to live 622 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: in a world where there were no differences and no 623 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: one suffered more than another. But that's not the reality 624 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: we live in. So when I talk about common humanity, 625 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: what I'm saying is no one, including ourselves, should be 626 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: cut out of that circle of humanity. Every every human 627 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: being is worthy but compassionate response that in no way, 628 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: shape or form means that all people are the same 629 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: or that all people suffer the same amount. There are 630 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: very real differences based on all sorts of systems of 631 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: oppression and personal history. You know, even just a genetic 632 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: makeup is there's huge variations. So the mindfulness is what 633 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: allows us to see clearly common humanity. In this case, 634 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: you stand together with others in order to say, hey, 635 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: it's not just me. We're going to stand together. And 636 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: this is actually what empowers us. When we feel shame, 637 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,439 Speaker 1: when we let other people shame us because we aren't 638 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: you know, we don't meet their standards, then we feel 639 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: isolated and alone. But when we stand together and say, hey, 640 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: there are hundreds of thousands of people just like me. 641 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: And then when I stand up for myself, I'm not 642 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: just standing up for me, I'm standing up for my 643 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: entire family. Then that gives a strength and empowerment. And 644 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: so mindfulness isn't always peaceful. Mindfulness sometimes wakes us up 645 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 1: and says, hey, we got to do something in this 646 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: system right to alleviate suffering. You don't know for sure 647 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: what action is going to be called for it's really 648 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: what your aim is, is your aim to alleviate suffering 649 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: or not. I love that. I love that. I feel 650 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: like what's interesting about this moment is that we actually 651 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 1: often can't agree with what is right. That there's so 652 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: much propaganda and there's so many different sort of media 653 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: sources that are obstucating and spinning other narratives for different purposes, 654 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,720 Speaker 1: so that that piece of mindfulness gets really tricky because 655 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: what reality for me? Right? I think about the um 656 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: all the anti trans bills that are being introduced all 657 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: over the country right now, and they're like, we need 658 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: to protect women's sports like to like like, I'm just 659 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: like creating this reality where like women are threatened by 660 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 1: trans people, and it's like, that's actually not the reality. 661 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: So we have to be able to sit in the 662 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: in the truth, and so I think to really get 663 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: clear about what the suffering is, right that like, yeah, 664 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 1: it's very very important. Of course, it's a process, right, 665 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: and so there's also an open mindedness to mindfulness. It's 666 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: not like a belief system. It's really just a process 667 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: of being open to the truth, open to scene, what's 668 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: the right in front of your eyes, not hiding things, 669 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: not twisting things as much as humanly possible. But you 670 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: also have to open be open to the possibility that 671 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: your view may be wrong. Right, so you also have 672 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 1: to open to someone else making an argument and saying, well, actually, 673 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: maybe maybe. As you point, if we start being self 674 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: righteous about it, then that also causes problems. And I'm 675 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: sure some of your listeners are thinking, Oh my god, 676 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: how am I going to do? This is so complicated. 677 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: I like to say that the goal of practice is 678 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: simply to be a compassionate mess. This is messy, Social 679 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: justice is messy, Our lives are messy. Every part of 680 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: it is messy. We're gonna get it wrong over and 681 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: over and over again, and we shouldn't actually expect otherwise. 682 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: Self compassion is not about getting it right. It's about 683 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: opening your heart. And so as long as our goal 684 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: is to hold the entire mess with compassion, we drawn 685 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: whatever tools we have available to us, whether it's anger 686 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: or love or tenderness or you know, whatever we need 687 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: in the moment, motivation, acceptance, and we do our best. 688 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: We fall down, and we lovingly pick ourselves up again, 689 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: and we keep on trying. And what happens is you 690 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: learn to be less invested in the outcome. You know 691 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: what if I achieved what's the outcome of my behavior? 692 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: It just kind of the whole process. If I can 693 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: be loving and kind and benevolent towards myself in the process, 694 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: well then I've achieved my goal. It doesn't really matter 695 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: if I've if I'm a mess or not. I love it. 696 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: So I like to end the podcast with the question 697 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: what else is true? And this is taken from my 698 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: my own therapeutic work in the community resiliency model. It's 699 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: about that shift and stay right. So if if I 700 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: am feeling a sharp pain in my stomach, where in 701 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: my body it's a neutral or positive, where in my 702 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,479 Speaker 1: life is a neutral or positive and that can become 703 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: a resource for me. So, um, Professor Christian nef today 704 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: for you, what else is true? What else is true? 705 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 1: So the first thing that comes to mind is, um, 706 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: it's just my son. I'm sorry. He always cuss my 707 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: mind because he's about to get home in school. But 708 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: you know, this is some the love of my son. 709 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: You know, he's autistic and he's just the most beautiful, 710 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 1: like authentic human being you ever want to be. He's 711 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 1: not operating from the place of what do other people 712 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: think of me? He's just himself. How old is he? 713 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 1: He's he's nineteen, he's nineteen. It's something about him. It's 714 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: just so beautiful and pure and so that that for 715 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: me is a resource. I think I can just kind 716 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: of let go my intellectual professoral life sometimes to know 717 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: what I'm just a mother to him. It just really 718 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: replenishes me. Yea, that is a beautiful What else is true? Beautiful? 719 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I have so much. I'm so 720 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: moved right now by this conversation. Thank you so much. 721 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: Thank you for your work, thank you for joining me today. 722 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 1: I'm so so grateful for you right now. And your 723 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: new book is Fierce Compassion. How women can harness kindness 724 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: to speak up and claim their power and thrive? Can I? Can? 725 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: I ask you an honest question. So you know, I 726 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 1: wrote the book, so it's written for women, and in 727 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: terms of genderal socialization as a transwoman, I must have 728 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: operated a little bit differently for you because you were 729 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: socialized in the wrong gender, so to speak. So how 730 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: how did that? How did that strike you? That's a 731 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: really good question. I have to say. When I was 732 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: when I started reading it, I'm gonna be real, honest 733 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: The initial thought was like, oh my gosh, this is 734 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: gonna be some white woman feminist thing that's not intersectional. 735 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: Initially that was my first thought, and then I was like, Okay, 736 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: she's acknowledging and continued reading it's like she's acknowledging that 737 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: the experiences of black women are different. And so I think, 738 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: what from my experience, I was constantly failing at being 739 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: masculine and being the young man boy that people wanted 740 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: me to be, and so I felt like I was 741 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 1: constantly failing. And then when I finally accepted my womanhood 742 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: and transitioned, I was again not feminine enough and then 743 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: failing again, right right, So the gender thing, honestly, for me, 744 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: like with through socialization and then through my acceptance of 745 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: my womanhood, has always been like I'm not enough, I'm failing, 746 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,439 Speaker 1: And I think that's honestly, probably the reality for most 747 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: people is that we're constantly not woman enough for man enough, 748 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: and we're constantly failing, and so we need to just 749 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: throw it all out. Thank you for her for indulging me, 750 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 1: and I did try to be clear about where I 751 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 1: was coming from, and it's the only really perspective I 752 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: could write from to be authentic, and I think there's 753 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: a lot of different books that could be written depending 754 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: on people's different lived experience. The specificity of you writing 755 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: for assist women didn't take me out as a trans woman, right, Well, 756 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 1: that's good things. Where can folks find you? Are you 757 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: on social media and all that stuff? Yes? Well, if 758 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: you google self compassion you'll find my website. I have 759 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,720 Speaker 1: a lot of free practices and resources and muscle on Facebook, Twitter, 760 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: I'm just starting up my Instagram account. I'm a little 761 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: late to the game, but probably my website is the 762 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: easiest place to start, and I've got a lot of 763 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: free resources there. So awesome. Thank you, thank you, thank you. 764 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: Here's to all of us being a little more self compassionate. 765 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,879 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. It's been a great interview to learn. 766 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so grateful for Kristin Neff and her 767 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: work right now, and keep thinking about what gets in 768 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 1: the way for me at being truly compassionate to myself, 769 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: and trauma can hijack my nervous system, we can hijack 770 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,760 Speaker 1: my whole life. The traumatic response is kind of my default. 771 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: Self criticism is my default, and so the compassion that 772 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 1: we would have towards other people, that we turn that 773 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: in towards ourselves. And that seems simple, but oh my, 774 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: there are a lot of reasons why it's really difficult. 775 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 1: It's a gentle process and all this is a gentle process, 776 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: and it's a daily practice us to be mindful and 777 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: to be in kindness towards everyone else. And so the 778 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: self compassion piece is actually really integral to trauma, resilience, 779 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: to healing our attachment issues and all the things that 780 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: you know we've talked about on this podcast. And it's 781 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:24,280 Speaker 1: also tied to justice and social justice, self compassion, kindness, 782 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: common humanity, and mindfulness. Here's to all that in your 783 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 1: lives and a day to time, a moment and a time, 784 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 1: a breath at a time. Thank you for listening to 785 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe and share 786 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: with everyone you know. Join me next week when I 787 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,800 Speaker 1: talk with internationally renowned researcher and educator Dr Joy Degree 788 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,240 Speaker 1: about intergenera rational trauma. Her book, Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome, 789 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: America's Legacy of Enduring injury and Healing lays the groundwork 790 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: for understanding how the past has influenced the present. You 791 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox 792 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, 793 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:31,920 Speaker 1: stay in the loud. The Laverne Cox Show is a 794 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 1: production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. 795 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I 796 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,360 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 797 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,320 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.