1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin previously on Revisionist History. 2 00:00:25,156 --> 00:00:27,996 Speaker 2: Had my wife just been murdered in my home, I 3 00:00:27,996 --> 00:00:31,756 Speaker 2: could tell you nothing. My mind's gone. But he knew 4 00:00:31,836 --> 00:00:34,076 Speaker 2: everything in detail. That's a red flag. 5 00:00:35,316 --> 00:00:39,316 Speaker 3: I can't remember how soon they figured out that, you know, 6 00:00:39,436 --> 00:00:42,396 Speaker 3: the preacher had sent us the job and all that, 7 00:00:42,516 --> 00:00:45,956 Speaker 3: but it was, you know, it was pretty obvious, pretty quick. 8 00:00:46,956 --> 00:00:48,996 Speaker 4: I just don't think some of these people that were 9 00:00:49,036 --> 00:00:51,756 Speaker 4: on the jury, they didn't want that to be on 10 00:00:51,796 --> 00:00:56,276 Speaker 4: their conscious the rest of their life. Putting somebody into 11 00:00:56,316 --> 00:00:57,116 Speaker 4: the death penalty. 12 00:00:58,236 --> 00:01:04,316 Speaker 5: Thirty five years, that's how long Elizabethsonnett's family waited for 13 00:01:04,556 --> 00:01:05,396 Speaker 5: justice to occur. 14 00:01:05,996 --> 00:01:08,756 Speaker 2: Thirty five long years. 15 00:01:09,996 --> 00:01:14,036 Speaker 6: He was just having severe nightmares of being executed over 16 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:16,076 Speaker 6: and over. He sort of came out of a depression 17 00:01:16,356 --> 00:01:18,156 Speaker 6: and then the second execution came up. 18 00:01:31,036 --> 00:01:33,636 Speaker 2: So at some point during your conversations with him, he 19 00:01:33,716 --> 00:01:35,196 Speaker 2: gets his second warrant. 20 00:01:35,396 --> 00:01:36,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, when is that? 21 00:01:38,396 --> 00:01:41,676 Speaker 6: So he got a second warrant in November a year 22 00:01:41,756 --> 00:01:46,356 Speaker 6: later for January execution. So you know, they take you 23 00:01:46,396 --> 00:01:47,916 Speaker 6: as soon as they give you the warrant. By the way, 24 00:01:47,916 --> 00:01:50,036 Speaker 6: this is another particularly cruel thing. This is the man 25 00:01:50,036 --> 00:01:52,076 Speaker 6: who's been thirty four years. He has a cell. He's 26 00:01:52,436 --> 00:01:54,276 Speaker 6: you know, they call it their house, their cell. So 27 00:01:54,396 --> 00:01:56,556 Speaker 6: his house was nice, you know, he had his stuff 28 00:01:56,556 --> 00:01:59,116 Speaker 6: in there. And once they take you to the warden 29 00:01:59,156 --> 00:02:00,636 Speaker 6: and tell you they don't take you back to your cell, 30 00:02:00,676 --> 00:02:04,276 Speaker 6: that's it. You get put in the death chamber cell, 31 00:02:04,356 --> 00:02:06,236 Speaker 6: which is this totally isolated cell. 32 00:02:07,156 --> 00:02:08,036 Speaker 1: Very hard. 33 00:02:09,556 --> 00:02:13,316 Speaker 2: Kate Portererfield, the psychologist hired by Kenny Smith's legal team, 34 00:02:15,436 --> 00:02:17,716 Speaker 2: once he was given the second warrant and taken to 35 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:19,716 Speaker 2: the death chamber, did you lose contact with him? 36 00:02:20,036 --> 00:02:20,276 Speaker 7: No? 37 00:02:20,276 --> 00:02:21,276 Speaker 1: No, we were able to talk. 38 00:02:21,436 --> 00:02:23,596 Speaker 6: We talked up until about I think we talked up 39 00:02:23,676 --> 00:02:28,676 Speaker 6: until about December, and then he got very you know, 40 00:02:28,756 --> 00:02:32,476 Speaker 6: he turned his attention to facing what was probably going 41 00:02:32,556 --> 00:02:35,596 Speaker 6: to happen. His lawyers were working very hard to still 42 00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 6: stop it. I testified in the hearing about what I 43 00:02:38,916 --> 00:02:40,556 Speaker 6: believed was going to happen to him with his post 44 00:02:40,596 --> 00:02:42,436 Speaker 6: traumatic stress if he had to go through this again. 45 00:02:43,236 --> 00:02:47,636 Speaker 6: And I testified, which I believed to be true, that 46 00:02:47,676 --> 00:02:49,436 Speaker 6: this man was going to go into a state of 47 00:02:49,476 --> 00:02:56,916 Speaker 6: such severe symptomatic PTSD as to be really just devastated, 48 00:02:57,236 --> 00:02:59,436 Speaker 6: you know, to be taken into that same thing again 49 00:02:59,556 --> 00:03:05,876 Speaker 6: was going to just be you know, catastrophic to his psyche. Yeah, well, 50 00:03:05,916 --> 00:03:07,996 Speaker 6: and those words cruel and unusuals like the legal term. 51 00:03:07,996 --> 00:03:09,956 Speaker 6: And so what I was saying is this man's going 52 00:03:10,036 --> 00:03:14,316 Speaker 6: to be absolutely devastated within his psyche and disorganized and 53 00:03:15,476 --> 00:03:20,036 Speaker 6: completely symptomatic because he's got a severe condition that you 54 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:21,636 Speaker 6: guys did to him, by the way, that was brought 55 00:03:21,676 --> 00:03:22,916 Speaker 6: about by what was done. 56 00:03:23,596 --> 00:03:26,116 Speaker 1: So this was not a guy who had PTSD before this. 57 00:03:28,436 --> 00:03:30,956 Speaker 2: Do you remember the first contact you had with him 58 00:03:30,956 --> 00:03:31,676 Speaker 2: after he got. 59 00:03:31,476 --> 00:03:34,956 Speaker 1: His warrant, I mean, I remember some of it. I mean, 60 00:03:35,196 --> 00:03:36,556 Speaker 1: he was very focused on fighting. 61 00:03:36,556 --> 00:03:38,276 Speaker 6: You know, he was very focused on fighting it, and 62 00:03:38,316 --> 00:03:39,676 Speaker 6: he was very worried about his family. 63 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:41,676 Speaker 1: He was super worried about his mom. 64 00:03:42,916 --> 00:03:48,876 Speaker 6: And his grandson and his wife. So he was very 65 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:53,436 Speaker 6: focused on them. And he also said, you know, I've 66 00:03:53,436 --> 00:03:55,436 Speaker 6: had the greatest lawyers. We're going to keep fighting this. 67 00:03:56,476 --> 00:03:58,636 Speaker 6: I mean, look, he was anxious, he was really starting 68 00:03:58,636 --> 00:04:01,036 Speaker 6: to fall apart, but he was also trying to be 69 00:04:01,116 --> 00:04:09,316 Speaker 6: focused on hope. 70 00:04:10,356 --> 00:04:13,676 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to the Alabama Murders. 71 00:04:14,196 --> 00:04:18,716 Speaker 2: This is the final episode in our series. We started 72 00:04:18,756 --> 00:04:21,836 Speaker 2: with the murder of Elizabeth Senate on Coon Dog Cemetery Road. 73 00:04:22,436 --> 00:04:24,356 Speaker 2: And now we're going to end with what happened in 74 00:04:24,436 --> 00:04:28,996 Speaker 2: Kenny Smith's last days, the bizarre and grotesque final act 75 00:04:29,356 --> 00:04:32,676 Speaker 2: to the Senate cascade, with the State of Alabama endeavored 76 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:37,116 Speaker 2: to figure out and justify another way of executing Kenny Smith. 77 00:04:39,036 --> 00:04:59,596 Speaker 2: This is episode seven, the Second Warrant. Just over a 78 00:04:59,636 --> 00:05:03,236 Speaker 2: month before Kenny Smith's second execution date, his legal team 79 00:05:03,436 --> 00:05:06,876 Speaker 2: made one last big push to save his life. A 80 00:05:06,956 --> 00:05:11,556 Speaker 2: lawsuit heard in US History Court in Montgomery, Alabama, Kenneth 81 00:05:11,676 --> 00:05:16,876 Speaker 2: Eugene Smith v. John Q. Ham Ham. The defendant is 82 00:05:16,916 --> 00:05:20,756 Speaker 2: the commissioner of the Alabama Department of Corrections. Bulldog of 83 00:05:20,796 --> 00:05:24,556 Speaker 2: a guy, maybe six feet bald, white mustache and go tee, 84 00:05:24,676 --> 00:05:28,556 Speaker 2: dark suit, white shirt, red tie. If you're curious about him, 85 00:05:28,796 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 2: you can find him on YouTube, where he's a regular. 86 00:05:33,916 --> 00:05:36,796 Speaker 2: He's the person in Alabama state government whose job it 87 00:05:36,876 --> 00:05:39,476 Speaker 2: is to stand up at press conferences and announce that 88 00:05:39,516 --> 00:05:44,156 Speaker 2: one of his prisons has just executed another person about. 89 00:05:43,916 --> 00:05:47,116 Speaker 4: One of the Alabama spring Born the night State of 90 00:05:47,156 --> 00:05:50,796 Speaker 4: Alabama carried out excuse of James Barber by lethal injection 91 00:05:51,396 --> 00:05:53,076 Speaker 4: at Williams a Hold Prison. 92 00:05:54,156 --> 00:05:58,396 Speaker 2: He answers questions about how things went emny IVS. 93 00:05:58,516 --> 00:06:00,196 Speaker 1: Did you need the heavy any too? 94 00:06:00,396 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 4: We had too, So there were three stays to six minutes. 95 00:06:04,476 --> 00:06:07,436 Speaker 2: And let's the world know they've done their job well. 96 00:06:07,796 --> 00:06:11,396 Speaker 4: So we carried out successful law in execution of the 97 00:06:11,676 --> 00:06:12,676 Speaker 4: man's break. 98 00:06:12,636 --> 00:06:13,036 Speaker 5: Ut and. 99 00:06:19,996 --> 00:06:24,796 Speaker 2: John Q. Ham this is who Kenny Smith's legal team 100 00:06:24,916 --> 00:06:28,476 Speaker 2: is up against. The basis of their appeal was a 101 00:06:28,516 --> 00:06:31,596 Speaker 2: new method that Alabama intended to use on Kenny Smith. 102 00:06:32,556 --> 00:06:35,676 Speaker 2: Having lost confidence in the ability of its execution team 103 00:06:35,836 --> 00:06:39,516 Speaker 2: to find one of Kenny Smith's vans, the state decided 104 00:06:39,556 --> 00:06:42,876 Speaker 2: instead to strap him to a gurney, put a mask 105 00:06:42,956 --> 00:06:45,956 Speaker 2: over his face, and pump him full of nitrogen gas, 106 00:06:46,596 --> 00:06:49,156 Speaker 2: a method that had never been used in a judicial 107 00:06:49,196 --> 00:06:54,076 Speaker 2: execution before in the United States, or for that matter, anywhere. 108 00:06:54,956 --> 00:06:58,876 Speaker 2: They were attempting to make history, and in response, Kenny 109 00:06:58,876 --> 00:07:01,836 Speaker 2: Smith's lawyers argued that the use of an untested method 110 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:06,676 Speaker 2: like nitrogen asphyxiation would violate the Eighth Amendment prohibition against 111 00:07:06,676 --> 00:07:14,516 Speaker 2: cruel and unusual punishment. Wanted a preliminary injunction. Tell me 112 00:07:14,516 --> 00:07:16,836 Speaker 2: a little bit about nitrogen gas. 113 00:07:17,996 --> 00:07:20,596 Speaker 8: It's not in its pure form. It's not used you 114 00:07:20,596 --> 00:07:22,236 Speaker 8: know in medical situations. 115 00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:26,076 Speaker 2: This is joel' zivid, the Atlanta and the caesiologist who 116 00:07:26,156 --> 00:07:28,156 Speaker 2: we've heard from many times in this series. 117 00:07:28,756 --> 00:07:32,596 Speaker 8: You know, in the air we breathe, it airs actually 118 00:07:32,796 --> 00:07:37,356 Speaker 8: is a mixture of about seventy nine percent or eighty 119 00:07:37,396 --> 00:07:41,596 Speaker 8: percent nitrogen and twenty twenty nine percent oxygen. Why don't 120 00:07:41,636 --> 00:07:45,356 Speaker 8: we breathe pure oxygen? If the atmosphere of the Earth 121 00:07:45,436 --> 00:07:48,956 Speaker 8: was pure oxygen, it would be on fire and there 122 00:07:48,956 --> 00:07:51,516 Speaker 8: would be no life. So to make it kind of 123 00:07:51,516 --> 00:07:54,516 Speaker 8: work in the body, we have to water it down, 124 00:07:54,596 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 8: so to speak, with nitrogen gas. 125 00:07:57,436 --> 00:08:00,676 Speaker 2: We breathe in oxygen, which keeps us alive, mixed in 126 00:08:00,716 --> 00:08:04,436 Speaker 2: with enough nitrogen to make it safe. Nitrogen is inert. 127 00:08:04,596 --> 00:08:06,716 Speaker 2: It just passes in and out of the body. 128 00:08:07,316 --> 00:08:11,836 Speaker 8: Like it doesn't kind of hurt to inhale it. But 129 00:08:12,396 --> 00:08:15,836 Speaker 8: what it does do is that it doesn't you know, 130 00:08:15,876 --> 00:08:19,916 Speaker 8: it doesn't light the fire of life. It doesn't support 131 00:08:20,196 --> 00:08:25,636 Speaker 8: the cellular combustion that is required with oxygen. So it's 132 00:08:25,716 --> 00:08:28,516 Speaker 8: like putting the candle, you know, under the glass, and 133 00:08:28,556 --> 00:08:32,436 Speaker 8: the candle eventually uses up all the oxygen and nothing remains. 134 00:08:33,676 --> 00:08:38,796 Speaker 8: So the theory was that because nitrogen gas was not noxious, 135 00:08:39,276 --> 00:08:42,316 Speaker 8: it would be it could be given to someone as 136 00:08:42,356 --> 00:08:46,636 Speaker 8: a kind of, you know, method of gas execution that 137 00:08:46,756 --> 00:08:50,516 Speaker 8: would not be so troubling to them because they would 138 00:08:50,556 --> 00:08:54,476 Speaker 8: breathe it and not know it, and that they would 139 00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:58,196 Speaker 8: then lose consciousness and die. 140 00:08:59,356 --> 00:09:02,996 Speaker 2: All you needed was some pure industrial grade nitrogen gas 141 00:09:03,396 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 2: and a type fitting mask. That was the theory and 142 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:10,756 Speaker 2: the great appeal of nitrogen to state like Alabama, where 143 00:09:10,796 --> 00:09:13,796 Speaker 2: the execution teams were not always up to the challenge 144 00:09:13,836 --> 00:09:18,196 Speaker 2: of executing people the conventional way. But in practice there 145 00:09:18,196 --> 00:09:22,636 Speaker 2: are complications, like if some oxygen seeps into your mask 146 00:09:22,836 --> 00:09:25,556 Speaker 2: while you're being fed nitrogen, then you could end up 147 00:09:25,596 --> 00:09:29,876 Speaker 2: in a vegetative state, alive but brain dead. There's also 148 00:09:29,916 --> 00:09:34,156 Speaker 2: the possibility, since pure nitrogen makes people nauseous, that the 149 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:37,716 Speaker 2: prisoner being executed could throw up in their mask and 150 00:09:37,796 --> 00:09:41,716 Speaker 2: choke to death, which achieves the same end but inducing 151 00:09:41,756 --> 00:09:44,356 Speaker 2: someone to asphyxiate on their own vomit is not a 152 00:09:44,396 --> 00:09:48,236 Speaker 2: Supreme Court approved method of execution as yet. 153 00:09:49,956 --> 00:09:53,796 Speaker 8: So in lethal injection, you know, once the vein is 154 00:09:53,876 --> 00:09:58,876 Speaker 8: canulated and the drugs are flowing, it's hard to stop. Okay, 155 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:01,956 Speaker 8: you can't kind of block your own vein or do something. 156 00:10:02,436 --> 00:10:08,476 Speaker 8: But in gas execution, you have to participate in your 157 00:10:08,516 --> 00:10:13,476 Speaker 8: own demand by breathing. Okay, So the first thing that 158 00:10:13,556 --> 00:10:17,116 Speaker 8: you're going to do is as you hold your breath, okay, 159 00:10:17,156 --> 00:10:20,156 Speaker 8: because you don't want to breathe. So now you're holding 160 00:10:20,196 --> 00:10:22,756 Speaker 8: your breath. You're holding your breath, and as you hold 161 00:10:22,796 --> 00:10:28,196 Speaker 8: your breath, your own carbon dioxide gas, which is something 162 00:10:28,196 --> 00:10:31,076 Speaker 8: that we normally exhale and is sort of finely regulated, 163 00:10:31,436 --> 00:10:35,076 Speaker 8: starts to rise. And it's the rising of carbon dioxide 164 00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:37,356 Speaker 8: that is very uncomfortable when you hold your breath. It 165 00:10:37,396 --> 00:10:40,116 Speaker 8: makes you want to take a breath, So that starts 166 00:10:40,116 --> 00:10:43,356 Speaker 8: to at some point you can't stand it, okay, and 167 00:10:43,396 --> 00:10:45,676 Speaker 8: you've got to take a breath, so you breathe in. 168 00:10:45,716 --> 00:10:48,756 Speaker 8: At that point, you breathe in. This nitrogen gas that 169 00:10:48,916 --> 00:10:52,236 Speaker 8: you know, has a very different kind of impact on 170 00:10:53,676 --> 00:10:57,676 Speaker 8: what's happened to you because by virtue of holding your breath, 171 00:10:58,196 --> 00:11:01,596 Speaker 8: it dilates the blood vessels in the brain. Okay, So 172 00:11:01,676 --> 00:11:06,516 Speaker 8: now you've got this flush of nitrogen gas that's traveling, 173 00:11:06,756 --> 00:11:10,316 Speaker 8: you know, at volume into your brain. That may be 174 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:14,556 Speaker 8: why you have a seizure, and it seems to create 175 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 8: a cascade of other kinds of physiologic changes. None of 176 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:23,436 Speaker 8: which this instantaneous unconsciousness followed by death. 177 00:11:29,076 --> 00:11:32,516 Speaker 2: The effectiveness of nitrogen gas as an euthanizing agent has 178 00:11:32,556 --> 00:11:36,796 Speaker 2: actually been extensively studied in animals. A group of researchers 179 00:11:36,796 --> 00:11:40,996 Speaker 2: in Zurich, for example, recently took sixty rats, implanted them 180 00:11:41,036 --> 00:11:44,916 Speaker 2: with biomedical sensors, divided them into groups, each with a 181 00:11:44,956 --> 00:11:51,236 Speaker 2: different lethal method carbon dioxide, a powerful anesthetic called isofluorane, 182 00:11:51,876 --> 00:11:58,836 Speaker 2: carbon monoxide, and nitrogen. They euthanized all the animals, videotaped 183 00:11:58,876 --> 00:12:06,876 Speaker 2: their final moments, necropsied the bodies, and collected cardiovascular, respiratory, neural, biochemical, histological, 184 00:12:07,156 --> 00:12:14,036 Speaker 2: and behavioral data. Conclusion, carbon monoxide and nitrogen resulted in 185 00:12:14,156 --> 00:12:18,636 Speaker 2: longer times to loss of consciousness, induced seizures before loss 186 00:12:18,636 --> 00:12:24,076 Speaker 2: of consciousness, increased stress levels, and caused higher lung damage. Therefore, 187 00:12:24,436 --> 00:12:30,436 Speaker 2: carbon monoxide and nitrogen are not humane alternatives and should 188 00:12:30,436 --> 00:12:35,916 Speaker 2: not be used for euthanasia. They weren't talking about the 189 00:12:35,956 --> 00:12:39,356 Speaker 2: applicability of their findings to human beings. They were simply 190 00:12:39,356 --> 00:12:43,116 Speaker 2: addressing their colleagues who used lab animals for research purposes. 191 00:12:43,596 --> 00:12:47,276 Speaker 2: They were telling them even the smallest and most despised 192 00:12:47,276 --> 00:12:51,636 Speaker 2: of animals deserves some degree of consideration. Please don't use nitrogen. 193 00:12:52,356 --> 00:12:56,676 Speaker 2: A rat deserves a better way to die. So this 194 00:12:56,916 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 2: was the point of the final lawsuit. Kenny Smith's lawyers 195 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:03,556 Speaker 2: wanted to know had John Hamm and his colleagues thought 196 00:13:03,596 --> 00:13:06,876 Speaker 2: about this new method of killing people with anything like 197 00:13:06,916 --> 00:13:32,876 Speaker 2: the rigor of the lab racy. December twentieth, twenty twenty three, 198 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:37,276 Speaker 2: it's a month before Kenny Smith's second execution date. John Q. 199 00:13:37,476 --> 00:13:40,356 Speaker 2: Ham took the stand in the morning. He began by 200 00:13:40,476 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 2: laying out Alabama's proposed protocol they would be using, he said, 201 00:13:45,236 --> 00:13:49,276 Speaker 2: the same execution chamber as a lethal injection attempt, the 202 00:13:49,316 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 2: same gurney, the execution team would have the same captain. 203 00:13:53,276 --> 00:13:55,796 Speaker 2: Ten of the twelve members of the execution team would 204 00:13:55,836 --> 00:13:58,796 Speaker 2: be the same. Each step of the protocol would be 205 00:13:58,836 --> 00:14:02,116 Speaker 2: the same. The only difference would be no IV this time, 206 00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:05,916 Speaker 2: just a mask hooked up to a canister of pure nitrogen. 207 00:14:06,756 --> 00:14:10,156 Speaker 2: The cross examination was handled by one of any Smith's lawyers, 208 00:14:10,676 --> 00:14:15,076 Speaker 2: Andrew Burns Johnson out of Birmingham. Can you tell the 209 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:17,876 Speaker 2: court what deliberation you had relating to what to do 210 00:14:17,996 --> 00:14:21,796 Speaker 2: in the circumstance of vomiting in the mask? When nitrogen 211 00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:26,956 Speaker 2: is being applied. Answer, we just had conversations about, like 212 00:14:27,036 --> 00:14:31,516 Speaker 2: I said, sitting around hypotheticals. So we sat around and 213 00:14:31,556 --> 00:14:34,516 Speaker 2: we came up with those ideas or excuse me, the 214 00:14:34,556 --> 00:14:36,876 Speaker 2: side effects. So what we would do in that situation? 215 00:14:38,356 --> 00:14:41,756 Speaker 2: Question did you consider that vomiting in a mask could 216 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:47,076 Speaker 2: cause asphyxiation? Answer? Yes, sir. Question did you consult with 217 00:14:47,116 --> 00:14:51,916 Speaker 2: any medical personnel about how to lessen that risk? Answer? No, sir. 218 00:14:52,756 --> 00:14:55,276 Speaker 2: Did you talk to any medical personnel about how to 219 00:14:55,316 --> 00:14:59,236 Speaker 2: alleviate that risk? No, sir. Did you talk to any 220 00:14:59,236 --> 00:15:02,236 Speaker 2: medical personnel about what to do in that situation as 221 00:15:02,236 --> 00:15:11,356 Speaker 2: it's happening to prevent asphyxiation? I did not. I can 222 00:15:11,436 --> 00:15:13,636 Speaker 2: only imagine what was going through the mind of Kenny 223 00:15:13,676 --> 00:15:18,716 Speaker 2: Smith's lawyer in that moment. Is it bafflement, disbelief? I mean, 224 00:15:18,956 --> 00:15:21,716 Speaker 2: for goodness sake, a research team in Zurich went to 225 00:15:22,036 --> 00:15:24,676 Speaker 2: enormous effort to figure out whether nitrogen was worthy of 226 00:15:25,196 --> 00:15:29,796 Speaker 2: lab rats. Could the Alabama State Department of Corrections, an 227 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:33,676 Speaker 2: organization with a budget of over seven hundred million dollars, 228 00:15:34,436 --> 00:15:41,596 Speaker 2: really just be winging it? Wait, we're not finished. Question, Okay, 229 00:15:41,916 --> 00:15:45,076 Speaker 2: you certainly had medical personnel available to you to ask 230 00:15:45,156 --> 00:15:49,516 Speaker 2: that question? Answer, I could have sought out medical advice. Yes. 231 00:15:50,636 --> 00:15:54,876 Speaker 2: Question okay, did the state have medical personnel involved in 232 00:15:54,876 --> 00:15:58,676 Speaker 2: this process of developing this protocol that you signed? Answer? 233 00:15:59,436 --> 00:16:03,116 Speaker 2: The Department of Corrections did not have medical personnel involved. 234 00:16:04,316 --> 00:16:07,876 Speaker 2: Question were you ever involved in meetings with medical personnel 235 00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:14,116 Speaker 2: with the issue ofvomiting in the mask was discussed at all? Answer? No, sir. 236 00:16:15,076 --> 00:16:18,636 Speaker 2: Question have you had an opportunity to review the declarations 237 00:16:18,636 --> 00:16:21,116 Speaker 2: of the experts in this case who talk about the 238 00:16:21,156 --> 00:16:25,716 Speaker 2: effects of vomiting in the mask? Answer? I have not. 239 00:16:29,356 --> 00:16:32,596 Speaker 2: This goes on and on. By the way, other witnesses 240 00:16:32,596 --> 00:16:35,476 Speaker 2: from the state of Alabama get called. Has anyone thought 241 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:38,556 Speaker 2: about what would happen if outside air came into the mask? 242 00:16:39,076 --> 00:16:39,156 Speaker 8: No? 243 00:16:40,116 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 2: Where did you get that mask? By the way, Well, 244 00:16:43,516 --> 00:16:46,396 Speaker 2: they don't really make masks for execution purposes, do they? 245 00:16:46,676 --> 00:16:49,476 Speaker 2: So we're using an industrial mask, the kind that a 246 00:16:49,516 --> 00:16:54,436 Speaker 2: construction worker might use. We did some internet research. Literally, 247 00:16:54,556 --> 00:16:56,916 Speaker 2: the person who the state asked to figure out the 248 00:16:56,956 --> 00:17:00,076 Speaker 2: mask question, who they brought to the hearing to support 249 00:17:00,116 --> 00:17:03,836 Speaker 2: their case, admitted that he never used these kinds of masks, 250 00:17:04,276 --> 00:17:08,116 Speaker 2: had no expertise in the characteristics of these masks, and 251 00:17:08,196 --> 00:17:10,756 Speaker 2: knew what he knew because he'd spend some time online. 252 00:17:11,996 --> 00:17:14,836 Speaker 2: Kenny Smith's lawyer then brings up the testimony of a 253 00:17:14,876 --> 00:17:18,276 Speaker 2: previous witness who'd stress the importance of the mask fitting 254 00:17:18,316 --> 00:17:22,036 Speaker 2: perfectly so no outside air would leak in, and asks 255 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 2: John q Ham about it. Question, So, in order to 256 00:17:26,436 --> 00:17:29,796 Speaker 2: be properly placed, one would have to ensure that there's 257 00:17:29,796 --> 00:17:34,636 Speaker 2: no outside air coming in? Answer? That was his opinion. 258 00:17:35,156 --> 00:17:39,476 Speaker 2: Question okay, assuming his opinion is correct, what's done in 259 00:17:39,476 --> 00:17:42,556 Speaker 2: the execution chamber to make sure that no outside air 260 00:17:42,636 --> 00:17:47,116 Speaker 2: gets under the mask? Answer? Well, that's hypothetical on his 261 00:17:47,236 --> 00:17:51,716 Speaker 2: opinion being correct. Question even so, what is done to 262 00:17:51,756 --> 00:17:56,036 Speaker 2: make sure no outside air comes in? Answer? I don't 263 00:17:56,036 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 2: know specifically what the team captain does to make sure 264 00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:01,316 Speaker 2: the air does not get in, but I'm sure they 265 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:06,636 Speaker 2: do practice quite regular Question. Do you agree with me? 266 00:18:06,676 --> 00:18:08,516 Speaker 2: There's nothing in the protocol that would let us know 267 00:18:08,556 --> 00:18:10,116 Speaker 2: what's going to have happened to make sure there's a 268 00:18:10,116 --> 00:18:16,516 Speaker 2: proper fit. Answer that is correct. Later in the day, 269 00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:19,756 Speaker 2: Kate Porterfield was called to the stand. She had spent 270 00:18:19,916 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 2: more than a year assessing Kenny Smith. She had submitted 271 00:18:23,036 --> 00:18:25,996 Speaker 2: her report to the court. She probably knew more than 272 00:18:26,076 --> 00:18:28,916 Speaker 2: anyone at that moment what he was feeling and how 273 00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:31,356 Speaker 2: he was doing, and how he might react to being 274 00:18:31,476 --> 00:18:34,396 Speaker 2: re executed by the same crew on the same journey 275 00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:37,676 Speaker 2: in the same execution chamber as the first go round. 276 00:18:38,316 --> 00:18:39,876 Speaker 2: But do you know what she was asked at the 277 00:18:39,876 --> 00:18:42,836 Speaker 2: beginning of her cross examination by the attorney for the 278 00:18:42,876 --> 00:18:47,076 Speaker 2: Alabama Department of Corrections. Had she properly accounted for the 279 00:18:47,116 --> 00:18:51,396 Speaker 2: possibility that Kenny might be malingering? What if all that 280 00:18:51,516 --> 00:18:54,796 Speaker 2: PTSD stuff that he claimed was about being jabbed with 281 00:18:54,836 --> 00:18:57,356 Speaker 2: needles for three and a half hours was just him 282 00:18:57,676 --> 00:19:01,916 Speaker 2: faking it? A long technical discussion follows about how you 283 00:19:01,916 --> 00:19:04,916 Speaker 2: can tell if someone's actually faking it, and from there 284 00:19:05,436 --> 00:19:07,556 Speaker 2: the questioning moved to the vomit. 285 00:19:07,356 --> 00:19:13,676 Speaker 6: Issue, and astonishingly, oh gosh, the focus of that hearing 286 00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 6: this is how what where the legal system sometimes is 287 00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:18,556 Speaker 6: just you can't make it up? 288 00:19:18,716 --> 00:19:20,316 Speaker 1: This stuff that they that. 289 00:19:20,276 --> 00:19:24,396 Speaker 6: Becomes the issue because he had to have a mask 290 00:19:24,476 --> 00:19:29,636 Speaker 6: over his face to get the gas for nitrogen hypoxia execution, 291 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:34,356 Speaker 6: and sorry, the details of this are gross, his lawyers argued, 292 00:19:35,076 --> 00:19:37,996 Speaker 6: he is because of his post traumatic stress, going to 293 00:19:38,036 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 6: possibly throw up, and if he throws up in his mask, 294 00:19:41,196 --> 00:19:43,556 Speaker 6: it's going to be you know, he could get asphixiated 295 00:19:43,636 --> 00:19:47,276 Speaker 6: that way. Now of course you are listening and thinking 296 00:19:47,356 --> 00:19:49,196 Speaker 6: this is so like talk about absurd, right. 297 00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:53,196 Speaker 1: So I was asked to testify. 298 00:19:52,756 --> 00:19:55,356 Speaker 6: About his post traumatic stress and his nausea, which was 299 00:19:55,396 --> 00:20:00,796 Speaker 6: one of his symptoms. And you know, I was asked 300 00:20:00,836 --> 00:20:04,196 Speaker 6: to testify would he throw up if they put a 301 00:20:04,196 --> 00:20:07,476 Speaker 6: mask on his face and try to kill him, which 302 00:20:08,516 --> 00:20:15,156 Speaker 6: you know, it's just incredible to be asked that in 303 00:20:15,196 --> 00:20:17,916 Speaker 6: a court of law. And I had to say, you know, 304 00:20:18,796 --> 00:20:20,596 Speaker 6: I'm not a medical doctor first of all, so I 305 00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:24,276 Speaker 6: can't speak to the gastro intestinal system and what it does. 306 00:20:24,316 --> 00:20:26,436 Speaker 6: I can tell you as a psychologist from this kind 307 00:20:26,436 --> 00:20:28,876 Speaker 6: of severe post traumatic stress and the fact that mister 308 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:32,396 Speaker 6: Smith's had really severe nausea and so vomiting, there is 309 00:20:32,436 --> 00:20:34,756 Speaker 6: a high likelihood that could happen, Yes, because he's going 310 00:20:34,836 --> 00:20:37,756 Speaker 6: to go into a serious state of distress. 311 00:20:38,716 --> 00:20:40,836 Speaker 1: But it kind of boiled down to whether or not 312 00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:42,076 Speaker 1: he would. 313 00:20:41,996 --> 00:20:47,756 Speaker 6: You know, vomit, as whether they could stop this, and they, 314 00:20:47,876 --> 00:20:51,116 Speaker 6: you know, the judge said, the judge said, don't let 315 00:20:51,196 --> 00:20:52,636 Speaker 6: him eat eight hours before. 316 00:20:54,436 --> 00:20:56,636 Speaker 1: That's what they did move the last meal earlier. 317 00:20:58,876 --> 00:21:06,076 Speaker 2: And with that Kenny's fate was said. In the months 318 00:21:06,156 --> 00:21:09,196 Speaker 2: leading up to his execution date, Kenny Smith began to 319 00:21:09,236 --> 00:21:13,036 Speaker 2: put his affairs in order. In his words, he loved 320 00:21:13,116 --> 00:21:17,196 Speaker 2: up on everybody. He named his witnesses. He wanted his 321 00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:22,076 Speaker 2: family there, his mom, his wife, his sons, his spiritual advisor, 322 00:21:22,076 --> 00:21:25,876 Speaker 2: his lawyer, Robert Grass. So tell me about that evening. 323 00:21:26,676 --> 00:21:33,316 Speaker 9: So I arrived. I was supposed to go to the 324 00:21:33,356 --> 00:21:36,316 Speaker 9: prison at five, So I got there at five. 325 00:21:38,196 --> 00:21:40,676 Speaker 2: Everyone on the list arrived at home in prison on 326 00:21:40,716 --> 00:21:44,916 Speaker 2: the afternoon of January twenty fifth. The corrections department gathered 327 00:21:44,956 --> 00:21:47,396 Speaker 2: them and put them in a van to drive to 328 00:21:47,436 --> 00:21:48,516 Speaker 2: the execution chamber. 329 00:21:49,116 --> 00:21:51,916 Speaker 9: At some point it started to rain and you could 330 00:21:51,956 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 9: hear on the roof, you know, you could hear the 331 00:21:54,436 --> 00:21:55,796 Speaker 9: rain falling on the roof. 332 00:21:59,796 --> 00:22:04,436 Speaker 2: They emptied their pockets, no watches, no phones. At six 333 00:22:04,436 --> 00:22:06,636 Speaker 2: point fifty two, one of the drivers of the van 334 00:22:06,716 --> 00:22:10,236 Speaker 2: got a phone call. It was moving time. A police 335 00:22:10,236 --> 00:22:13,116 Speaker 2: car with flashing lights led the way through a gate 336 00:22:13,156 --> 00:22:15,356 Speaker 2: at the back of the prison. From there to a 337 00:22:15,396 --> 00:22:20,316 Speaker 2: holding room. Another wait, maybe an hour. Lee Hedgebeth, the 338 00:22:20,356 --> 00:22:23,396 Speaker 2: local reporter who did some interviews for US was there, 339 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:28,116 Speaker 2: so was Kenny Smith's mom, Linda. 340 00:22:28,716 --> 00:22:31,516 Speaker 5: He'd survived that first attempt, Did you think there was 341 00:22:31,556 --> 00:22:33,636 Speaker 5: any chance that he would survive the second time? 342 00:22:35,716 --> 00:22:47,356 Speaker 1: You know, I really didn't. Good you, I don't know. 343 00:22:47,756 --> 00:22:51,196 Speaker 5: Part of me thought we might all die because they 344 00:22:51,196 --> 00:22:53,036 Speaker 5: didn't know what they were doing. It was the first 345 00:22:53,036 --> 00:22:55,356 Speaker 5: time it had ever been done. Yeah, you know, he's 346 00:22:55,356 --> 00:22:57,116 Speaker 5: got a mask that leaks, and. 347 00:23:00,716 --> 00:23:04,276 Speaker 7: I don't know, somehow I just knew that that was 348 00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:09,396 Speaker 7: that was going to be it. And when he well, 349 00:23:09,396 --> 00:23:11,476 Speaker 7: he said when he seen him coming there, said well, Mom, 350 00:23:12,516 --> 00:23:18,556 Speaker 7: they're coming to get me, and you know, we said 351 00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:22,876 Speaker 7: our good pies, and you know, the laughing thing he 352 00:23:22,916 --> 00:23:26,556 Speaker 7: said was I love you, Mom, I gotta go. 353 00:23:30,356 --> 00:23:33,036 Speaker 5: So the last time he saw him was when I 354 00:23:33,196 --> 00:23:36,476 Speaker 5: was there in my room and they come and get him. 355 00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:39,716 Speaker 5: Do you remember is that what he said to you then? Too? 356 00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:44,396 Speaker 5: What do you remember what she said to him? 357 00:23:45,196 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 7: I told him I loved him too. He said, I know, Mom. 358 00:23:53,916 --> 00:23:56,356 Speaker 7: And then I just can't get that picture out of 359 00:23:56,396 --> 00:24:01,236 Speaker 7: my head when he's they're walking him back and he 360 00:24:02,236 --> 00:24:07,036 Speaker 7: looked back and he was just smiling. Yeah, that haunts me. 361 00:24:10,996 --> 00:24:15,236 Speaker 2: At some point, everyone was led to the witness room. 362 00:24:15,596 --> 00:24:18,756 Speaker 9: A curtain was drawn by the windows. There were four 363 00:24:18,796 --> 00:24:23,676 Speaker 9: seats in the front which we took. There was a 364 00:24:23,716 --> 00:24:29,796 Speaker 9: box of tissues to my right near the window sill, 365 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:40,276 Speaker 9: or on a window sill, and then a little after 366 00:24:40,356 --> 00:24:48,396 Speaker 9: that they opened the curtain. We could see Kenny strapped 367 00:24:48,396 --> 00:24:50,876 Speaker 9: to a gurney, who was strapped across his chest. His 368 00:24:51,116 --> 00:24:56,596 Speaker 9: arms were strapped to the side, and he was wearing 369 00:24:57,316 --> 00:25:02,476 Speaker 9: a mask. The warden entered the room. He read the 370 00:25:02,556 --> 00:25:08,796 Speaker 9: death warrant. He asked Kenny if he had if you 371 00:25:08,836 --> 00:25:13,636 Speaker 9: want to make a statement, which he did, so they 372 00:25:13,636 --> 00:25:19,196 Speaker 9: put the microphone. They unscrewed a valve to the mask. 373 00:25:19,396 --> 00:25:23,036 Speaker 9: They put the microphone near him, and he made his statement. 374 00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:25,276 Speaker 9: Warden then left the room. 375 00:25:25,556 --> 00:25:28,436 Speaker 2: What did he say? 376 00:25:29,836 --> 00:25:33,076 Speaker 9: He said something along the lines of that Alabama was 377 00:25:33,156 --> 00:25:38,436 Speaker 9: taking a step backwards that evening, and he said, I 378 00:25:38,476 --> 00:25:44,196 Speaker 9: love you all, I'm going with peace, and I forget 379 00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:46,916 Speaker 9: exactly what it was, but it was something along those lines. 380 00:25:51,476 --> 00:25:57,596 Speaker 9: The warden left the room and then they started the procedure, 381 00:25:57,996 --> 00:26:03,836 Speaker 9: or at least that's what it seemed like. And that was, 382 00:26:06,636 --> 00:26:12,676 Speaker 9: you know, pretty ugly to watch because Kenny, they had 383 00:26:12,676 --> 00:26:15,956 Speaker 9: been saying all along that Kenny would be unconscious and 384 00:26:16,876 --> 00:26:18,916 Speaker 9: you know seconds, you know, less than a minute, and 385 00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:25,276 Speaker 9: this would be a painless thing. I'm not a medical person. 386 00:26:25,516 --> 00:26:29,716 Speaker 9: I can't opine on the on what happened. The only 387 00:26:29,756 --> 00:26:32,676 Speaker 9: one who can tell us if he experienced pain is 388 00:26:32,716 --> 00:26:39,596 Speaker 9: not here to describe it. But what I observed anyhow, 389 00:26:39,756 --> 00:26:44,116 Speaker 9: did not look like what Alabama had advertised, because there 390 00:26:44,156 --> 00:26:53,476 Speaker 9: were violent seizure type movements. You know, it's kind of 391 00:26:54,636 --> 00:26:57,796 Speaker 9: as best he could against the constraints. You could see 392 00:26:57,796 --> 00:27:01,796 Speaker 9: his head come back and violently come forward and violently 393 00:27:01,876 --> 00:27:06,276 Speaker 9: go back. You could see his fist clenched in his arms, 394 00:27:07,756 --> 00:27:12,676 Speaker 9: straining against the restraints. And as I said, I didn't 395 00:27:12,716 --> 00:27:17,556 Speaker 9: have my watch, and I wasn't cognizant if there was 396 00:27:17,596 --> 00:27:19,756 Speaker 9: a clock in the room. But I can tell you 397 00:27:19,836 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 9: that that went on, you know, that was minutes, not seconds, 398 00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:26,476 Speaker 9: that that appeared to be going on. There's was what 399 00:27:26,596 --> 00:27:33,236 Speaker 9: appeared to be gasping for air. After that, for again 400 00:27:33,316 --> 00:27:42,516 Speaker 9: another period of you know, minutes, not nott seconds. At 401 00:27:45,876 --> 00:27:50,836 Speaker 9: at some point you could see him kind of fall 402 00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:55,476 Speaker 9: back into you know, into the gurney and and lay there. 403 00:27:59,516 --> 00:28:04,156 Speaker 9: Then they escorted us out of the witness room, took 404 00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:06,716 Speaker 9: us back, put us back in the van, and brought 405 00:28:06,756 --> 00:28:10,236 Speaker 9: us back to the parking lot where we had gathered. 406 00:28:11,316 --> 00:28:15,476 Speaker 9: And that was that evening. 407 00:28:23,556 --> 00:28:27,636 Speaker 2: Can you describe your feelings when it was over. 408 00:28:32,076 --> 00:28:32,796 Speaker 5: It's hard to. 409 00:28:35,076 --> 00:28:35,676 Speaker 9: Describe. 410 00:28:35,836 --> 00:28:36,036 Speaker 6: You know. 411 00:28:36,116 --> 00:28:43,836 Speaker 9: That was about eighteen years of effort that ended up 412 00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:52,076 Speaker 9: being unsuccessful. I felt awful about that. I felt awful for. 413 00:28:55,596 --> 00:28:56,196 Speaker 10: For Kenny. 414 00:28:56,316 --> 00:29:02,316 Speaker 9: I felt awful for Kenny's wife, his children, his mother, 415 00:29:02,916 --> 00:29:07,636 Speaker 9: his extended family. He had, you know, grandchildren by that point, 416 00:29:07,756 --> 00:29:14,716 Speaker 9: niece's nephews. The point of the eighteen years of representation 417 00:29:15,116 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 9: was basically to avoid, to prevent that moment. 418 00:29:20,636 --> 00:29:24,076 Speaker 2: Do you miss him? 419 00:29:24,356 --> 00:29:30,076 Speaker 9: I do? I Actually, you know, I think about him. 420 00:29:30,196 --> 00:29:37,356 Speaker 9: His birthday was July fourth, so I was thinking about 421 00:29:37,396 --> 00:29:45,156 Speaker 9: him then and I think about him often. 422 00:29:55,236 --> 00:29:58,196 Speaker 2: Can you tell me a little bit more about Sorry? 423 00:30:00,476 --> 00:30:04,036 Speaker 9: I'm sorry, you know, I wish I could. Every time 424 00:30:04,076 --> 00:30:06,196 Speaker 9: I tell this story, I wish I could tell it 425 00:30:06,236 --> 00:30:06,556 Speaker 9: with a. 426 00:30:06,516 --> 00:30:19,516 Speaker 10: Different ending and a different beginning. For that matter, we'll 427 00:30:19,516 --> 00:30:36,636 Speaker 10: be right back, good night. 428 00:30:36,756 --> 00:30:39,876 Speaker 4: State of Alabama started carrying out the execution of Kennethy 429 00:30:40,076 --> 00:30:44,916 Speaker 4: Gene Smith by nitrogenpoxia at the WILLIAMS. Holman Correction Facility 430 00:30:44,916 --> 00:30:48,076 Speaker 4: of Smith was executed for the nineteen eighty eight capital 431 00:30:48,196 --> 00:30:52,636 Speaker 4: murder of Elizabeth Orleans Senate in Calvert County. 432 00:30:54,036 --> 00:30:57,556 Speaker 2: After it was all over, John Q. Haam, the Commissioner 433 00:30:57,596 --> 00:31:00,956 Speaker 2: of the Alabama Department of Corrections, held a press conference 434 00:31:01,116 --> 00:31:04,756 Speaker 2: as he always does, podium, big banner right behind him 435 00:31:04,756 --> 00:31:11,716 Speaker 2: with the words professionalism, integrity, accountability, Charles and Elizabeth sentences. 436 00:31:11,716 --> 00:31:13,916 Speaker 2: Two sons stand off to the side. 437 00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:18,516 Speaker 7: Commissioner mister Smith appeared to shake him ride on the 438 00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:20,916 Speaker 7: gurry for at least two minutes at the start of 439 00:31:20,916 --> 00:31:21,516 Speaker 7: the execution. 440 00:31:22,076 --> 00:31:26,476 Speaker 4: Was that expected period that one Smith was holding his 441 00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:30,396 Speaker 4: breath as long as he could, and then there's also 442 00:31:30,516 --> 00:31:35,236 Speaker 4: information out there he struggled against his restraints a little bit, 443 00:31:35,316 --> 00:31:38,876 Speaker 4: but there's some involuntary movement and some agniballe breathing. So 444 00:31:39,796 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 4: that was all expected. And then the side effects that 445 00:31:43,556 --> 00:31:47,276 Speaker 4: we've seen of researched on lecrogen the box here. So 446 00:31:47,396 --> 00:31:48,956 Speaker 4: nothing was out of the order of what. 447 00:31:48,836 --> 00:31:52,876 Speaker 2: We were expecting, nothing out of the ordinary, just what 448 00:31:52,916 --> 00:31:56,476 Speaker 2: they were expecting. Then more questions. 449 00:31:57,036 --> 00:31:59,876 Speaker 5: He appeared conscious for the first several minutes. 450 00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:00,676 Speaker 3: Do you agree with that? 451 00:32:00,796 --> 00:32:03,516 Speaker 7: The Attorney General's Office in Port Filing said they thought 452 00:32:03,556 --> 00:32:07,236 Speaker 7: with Migraten would cost a lack of consciousness within seconds. 453 00:32:08,036 --> 00:32:08,356 Speaker 2: I don't know. 454 00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:11,876 Speaker 4: I couldn't really see his face from where I was sitting. 455 00:32:12,076 --> 00:32:13,556 Speaker 2: Y'all might have had a better view. 456 00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:17,116 Speaker 8: Of that anytimes to implement this method for future and 457 00:32:17,156 --> 00:32:21,476 Speaker 8: mains on Destoh. 458 00:32:19,716 --> 00:32:22,676 Speaker 4: That's this is a state law for the state of Alabama. 459 00:32:22,836 --> 00:32:26,316 Speaker 4: That nation POxy is one of the three methods of execution. 460 00:32:26,476 --> 00:32:29,276 Speaker 4: So thenmates choose it, then that's the method we will use. 461 00:32:30,596 --> 00:32:33,876 Speaker 2: Then, came a press release from the Alabama Attorney General's Office. 462 00:32:35,196 --> 00:32:40,356 Speaker 2: Alabama has achieved something historic. It went on despite the 463 00:32:40,476 --> 00:32:44,276 Speaker 2: international effort by activists to undermine and disparage our states 464 00:32:44,356 --> 00:32:47,276 Speaker 2: justice system and to deny justice to the victims of 465 00:32:47,316 --> 00:32:52,316 Speaker 2: heinous murders. Our proven method offers a blueprint for other 466 00:32:52,396 --> 00:32:55,796 Speaker 2: states and a warning to those who would contemplate shedding 467 00:32:55,916 --> 00:33:00,996 Speaker 2: innocent blood. This is an important night for Liz Senett's family, 468 00:33:01,636 --> 00:33:04,516 Speaker 2: for justice and for the rule of law in our 469 00:33:04,556 --> 00:33:11,156 Speaker 2: great nation. As an affair, and in his madness, sees 470 00:33:11,196 --> 00:33:14,836 Speaker 2: no alternative but to kill his wife, he recruits two 471 00:33:14,956 --> 00:33:18,476 Speaker 2: troubled young men who take the fall. Both of those 472 00:33:18,516 --> 00:33:21,596 Speaker 2: men are redeemed. While in prison, they discover their capacity 473 00:33:21,596 --> 00:33:23,796 Speaker 2: to love and to be loved. But that is of 474 00:33:23,836 --> 00:33:27,276 Speaker 2: no concern for the state of Alabama, which executes the 475 00:33:27,316 --> 00:33:30,916 Speaker 2: first by setting his lungs on fire, and executes the 476 00:33:30,996 --> 00:33:36,276 Speaker 2: second twice, first in spirit and then in fact letting 477 00:33:36,356 --> 00:33:39,236 Speaker 2: him combulse on the gurney, because no one bothered to 478 00:33:39,356 --> 00:33:41,836 Speaker 2: check whether a method that is not even worthy of 479 00:33:41,916 --> 00:33:46,676 Speaker 2: lab rats was a good idea for human beings. The 480 00:33:46,756 --> 00:33:52,236 Speaker 2: cascade begins in obliviousness, then proceeds from indifference to cruelty, 481 00:33:52,996 --> 00:33:57,836 Speaker 2: and ends in revision when a senior elected official of 482 00:33:57,876 --> 00:34:01,676 Speaker 2: an American state looks back over a thirty six year 483 00:34:01,796 --> 00:34:08,236 Speaker 2: long cascade of moral failure and declares, without irony, Alabama 484 00:34:08,276 --> 00:34:25,516 Speaker 2: has achieved something historic. Do you remember the last conversation 485 00:34:25,676 --> 00:34:26,316 Speaker 2: you had with them. 486 00:34:27,116 --> 00:34:29,356 Speaker 6: We still were very much talking about what his options 487 00:34:29,356 --> 00:34:31,556 Speaker 6: were and legally, and I didn't know it was going 488 00:34:31,596 --> 00:34:34,196 Speaker 6: to be my last conversation with him, you know. So 489 00:34:34,716 --> 00:34:38,516 Speaker 6: once it got very close to the warrant, I had said, 490 00:34:38,756 --> 00:34:41,596 Speaker 6: you know, I'm here. Anybody would like me to do 491 00:34:41,636 --> 00:34:44,996 Speaker 6: anything to assist with this post traumatic stress or anything, 492 00:34:45,156 --> 00:34:48,876 Speaker 6: please contact me, you know, And but he started to 493 00:34:48,876 --> 00:34:51,196 Speaker 6: really have to focus on what he was about to do. 494 00:34:51,276 --> 00:34:52,756 Speaker 6: You know what was about to happen to him. So 495 00:34:52,796 --> 00:34:54,996 Speaker 6: I wrote him a letter at the end, and I 496 00:34:55,036 --> 00:34:57,596 Speaker 6: sent it to him. I just wrote him a little 497 00:34:57,596 --> 00:35:00,676 Speaker 6: paragraph and I just said that what it had meant 498 00:35:00,716 --> 00:35:02,876 Speaker 6: to work with him. They gave it to him, I 499 00:35:02,876 --> 00:35:04,356 Speaker 6: guess the day before, and I just said, you know, 500 00:35:04,556 --> 00:35:08,756 Speaker 6: your spirit is just you know, irrepressible, and you're I 501 00:35:08,796 --> 00:35:11,356 Speaker 6: did say I liked this because it was true with Kenny. 502 00:35:11,356 --> 00:35:16,756 Speaker 6: I said, your ability to build relationships behind walls is 503 00:35:16,796 --> 00:35:20,636 Speaker 6: nothing less than miraculous. Because that's really what I felt 504 00:35:20,676 --> 00:35:24,676 Speaker 6: about him. You know, he built relationships, real ones with 505 00:35:24,756 --> 00:35:25,436 Speaker 6: his loved ones. 506 00:35:26,036 --> 00:35:30,636 Speaker 1: M and that's not easy. It's not easy when we're 507 00:35:30,676 --> 00:35:31,196 Speaker 1: not in prison. 508 00:35:32,636 --> 00:35:38,156 Speaker 2: You know, where were you when he was finally executed. 509 00:35:38,676 --> 00:35:39,476 Speaker 1: Oh? I was home. 510 00:35:41,956 --> 00:35:45,716 Speaker 6: So I I have this thing I do where I 511 00:35:45,756 --> 00:35:47,396 Speaker 6: you know, I talked to the lawyers always before and 512 00:35:47,436 --> 00:35:48,236 Speaker 6: say we're all. 513 00:35:48,076 --> 00:35:52,356 Speaker 1: Being stuff and obviously if anyone needs me, and then. 514 00:35:52,276 --> 00:35:54,876 Speaker 6: I usually tell my kids and we're going to light 515 00:35:54,876 --> 00:35:56,556 Speaker 6: a candle, and we light a candle for the person. 516 00:35:56,876 --> 00:36:00,236 Speaker 6: And usually I put some something pretty with the candle 517 00:36:00,316 --> 00:36:03,236 Speaker 6: and then take a picture of it. And I always 518 00:36:03,236 --> 00:36:05,196 Speaker 6: send the picture of the candle to the lawyers and 519 00:36:05,276 --> 00:36:08,436 Speaker 6: just say, you know, I'm remembering Kenny right now and 520 00:36:08,516 --> 00:36:14,476 Speaker 6: whatever he's going going through. And then I usually have 521 00:36:14,556 --> 00:36:30,196 Speaker 6: a glass of wine and feel like shit, what are 522 00:36:30,196 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 6: you thinking? 523 00:36:30,636 --> 00:36:46,676 Speaker 1: May I ask? 524 00:36:51,716 --> 00:37:35,436 Speaker 6: I'm sorry. Right, it's a lot to think about. And 525 00:37:38,836 --> 00:37:41,396 Speaker 6: you know, the normal thing we do we make meaning, right, 526 00:37:42,396 --> 00:37:43,676 Speaker 6: is we think about other losses. 527 00:37:43,756 --> 00:37:43,916 Speaker 1: Think. 528 00:37:44,156 --> 00:37:46,316 Speaker 6: You think about what the person's family went through. You 529 00:37:46,356 --> 00:37:49,156 Speaker 6: think what you would go through if that was happening, 530 00:37:49,196 --> 00:37:51,476 Speaker 6: you know. So it's this is what being a human is. 531 00:37:51,516 --> 00:37:53,756 Speaker 6: It's like when you put your mind in this place, 532 00:37:55,196 --> 00:37:57,116 Speaker 6: it's a lot. It's a lot. 533 00:38:49,556 --> 00:38:53,436 Speaker 2: Revisionist History is produced by Lucy Sullivan, Benda daff Haffrey, 534 00:38:53,636 --> 00:38:57,236 Speaker 2: and Nina Bird Lawrence. Additional reporting by Benda daff Haffrey 535 00:38:57,396 --> 00:39:01,756 Speaker 2: and Lee Hedgebeth. Our editor is Karen Schakerji, fact checking 536 00:39:01,796 --> 00:39:05,876 Speaker 2: by Kate Furby. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Production 537 00:39:05,996 --> 00:39:11,036 Speaker 2: support from Luke Klement, Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence. Original 538 00:39:11,076 --> 00:39:14,476 Speaker 2: music was composed, arranged, and recorded by Luis Querra, with 539 00:39:14,556 --> 00:39:19,396 Speaker 2: additional composition and recording by Paul Brainerd. Drums by Jimmy Bott, 540 00:39:19,756 --> 00:39:22,996 Speaker 2: sound design and additional music by Jake Gorsky. Cover art 541 00:39:22,996 --> 00:39:25,876 Speaker 2: for the season was designed by Sean Karney and special 542 00:39:25,916 --> 00:39:28,756 Speaker 2: thanks to a whole host of people who helped us out. 543 00:39:29,236 --> 00:39:31,636 Speaker 2: The good folks at Audible who came to our table 544 00:39:31,636 --> 00:39:36,036 Speaker 2: reads Tali Emlin, Randy Suskin at the Equal Justice Initiative 545 00:39:36,036 --> 00:39:39,516 Speaker 2: in Montgomery who helped us out with research, Mike Cooley 546 00:39:39,836 --> 00:39:43,356 Speaker 2: of the Drive By Truckers and at Pushkin, Greta Cone, 547 00:39:43,596 --> 00:39:49,836 Speaker 2: Jacob Weisberg, Sarah Nix, Nicole opten Bosch, Jasmine Faustino, Christina Sullivan, 548 00:39:50,076 --> 00:39:54,876 Speaker 2: Amy Gaines, McQuaid, Grace Ross, Eric Sandler, Morgan Ratner, Kira Posey, 549 00:39:55,156 --> 00:39:59,596 Speaker 2: Jordan McMillan, Jake Flanagan, Owen Miller, Fara de Grange, and 550 00:39:59,636 --> 00:40:02,156 Speaker 2: Sarah Buguer. H'm Malcolm glava 551 00:40:09,196 --> 00:40:09,236 Speaker 1: O