1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm our host ed 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: Zetron and today I'm joined by the esteem Nathan Grayson, 4 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 2: co founder of the work owned gaming website Aftermath. Nathan, 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining me again. 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for having me. 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: So you just did two years. What's it been like. 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: What have you learned in the last two years from 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 2: doing this? 10 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: Yeah? Just nothing. 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: You know. 12 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 3: We came in as experts. We were you know, we 13 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 3: didn't need to learn anything at all. We were perfect. Yeah. No, 14 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 3: we have learned so so, so so so much. You know, 15 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 3: we entered it as five people who wrote for a living, 16 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 3: who never really had much experience with the business side 17 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 3: of things because that wasn't really our purview. And when 18 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 3: you go from being at a major public sure of 19 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 3: any sort, whether in our cases that was Geomedia with 20 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 3: Kataku with the Washington Post or Vice or whatever else, 21 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 3: you know, a lot gets handled for you, whether that 22 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 3: is payroll or promotion or in some cases social media 23 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 3: things of that nature. We have to do all of 24 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 3: that ourselves now, in addition to expanding the business, finding 25 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 3: ways to grow, finding ways to support ourselves and keep 26 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 3: it sustainable or even make it sustainable in the first place. 27 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 3: So part of the reason we decided to do a 28 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 3: relaunch was to kind of plant our flag and say like, yeah, 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 3: you know, we're a real grown up business now, whereas 30 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 3: when we first started we kind of just were cobbling 31 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 3: things together and learning as we went along. 32 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: So tell me about the relaunch. What you been doing. 33 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: You moved to ghost. 34 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, we moved over to ghost Yeah, so 35 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 3: we relaunched the website. We think it looks better and 36 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 3: nicer now there are more design possibilities and also like 37 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 3: we can accept more kinds of payment and have more 38 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 3: ways to reach readers and let them know, like, hey, 39 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 3: your subscriptions expiring, all this nitty gritty stuff. But yeah, 40 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 3: we we just decided to move over there because it 41 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 3: offers more flexibility. Sites like four or four in Hellgate 42 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 3: or on Ghosts and have nothing but good things to say, 43 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 3: and like, you know, we appreciated Lead, which is what 44 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: we're using before, that's what Defector's on. But yeah, there 45 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: are just a few things that we felt like we 46 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 3: were not going to be able to get from Lead 47 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 3: within a semi reasonable timeframe, and Ghosts already offered them. 48 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: So we're like yeah, makes sense. 49 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: It's also grown into like a vibrant website. It was 50 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: at first you were kind of testing things out, but 51 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: now you've got a very developed stack of people. You've 52 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: got free lancers now, right. 53 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we use freelancers. We accept freelance admissions. We 54 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 3: also have two regular contributors, Nicole and Isaiah. They they 55 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 3: are in our slack. They write for us, you know, 56 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 3: every week. Yeah, you know, we're going places. We're still 57 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: a core staff of five, but in the near future, 58 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: you know, should we accrue enough subscriptions, we'd like to 59 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: hire people on full time and grow staff again, similar 60 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 3: to what we've been seeing with well, I think four 61 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 3: or four now has like regular contributors as well. I'm 62 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 3: not sure if they have anyone new full time yet. Hellgate, 63 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 3: I know has grown so yeah, you know, again, we 64 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 3: are following in the footsteps of, at least relative to ourselves, giants, 65 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 3: and we would like to keep doing that. But that 66 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 3: requires growing more, making more money, all that stuff, you know, 67 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 3: typical challenges of a small business, but mapped on to 68 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 3: independent media. 69 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: So and coverage wise, you're fairly wired now like you 70 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: cover games, but kind of in the dead Spin before 71 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 2: the bullshit Happened style thing, where it's like gaming can 72 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: mean many different things. 73 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, And also, like I think from 74 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 3: the get go, what we wanted to do was cover 75 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 3: games in the way the Defector covers sports, which is 76 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 3: to say that, you know, we can cover a lot 77 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: of things, a lot of things fall under that umbrella. 78 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 3: And on top of that, like, you know, games are 79 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 3: relevant to many different areas as well, like, and so 80 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: I think that compared to other video game websites, for example, 81 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 3: we spend a lot of time covering politics. For a 82 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 3: long time, there's this refrain that like, oh, you know, 83 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 3: games are escapism and like you should keep politics out 84 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 3: of and blah blah blah, which has always been bullshit, 85 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 3: of course, But I think that even relative to our 86 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 3: coverage at other places, like before we made Aftermath, you know, 87 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 3: all of us have been fairly politically minded in our careers, 88 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 3: but after Math, like we really go in on that. 89 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 3: And I'm very proud of what we've accomplished on that 90 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 3: front in terms of just covering that overlap, especially as 91 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 3: it's become more and more relevant to the modern day. 92 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 3: You know, like when Trump was running for president again, 93 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 3: he was meeting with gaming influencers, like you know, you 94 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 3: have all of these things where now the people who 95 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: used to be considered just like outcast nerds are in 96 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 3: incredible places of prominence. 97 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's weird. I don't like seeing games bleed 98 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: into politics at all. I think we really I think 99 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: we were good in about twenty eleven with Home From 100 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: which was the I think the only necessary political game. 101 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: Well what if North Korea radiated the Mississippi River Classic game. 102 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: I'm sure I'm going to get some great emails about 103 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 2: the fact that there were political games before that, And 104 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 2: you're wrong. But it is interesting where you are where 105 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: aftermath is app in the current milieau of like politics 106 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 2: and digital culture, because it does feel like streaming and 107 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: gaming have just kind of meshed into everything now outside 108 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 2: of politics, You've got a bunch of tons of like 109 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: NBA players and NFL players who game and stream regularly, 110 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: but you've also got these particularly vile and not vile 111 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 2: streamers who. 112 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: Do it too. Yeah. 113 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and I mean we just recently this week, 114 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 3: in fact, we ran a story about kind of the 115 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: aftermath of one person in the aftermath haha, that's say. 116 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 3: But anyway about an employee at a company called Sucker Punch. 117 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 3: They made a ghost of Yota recently getting fired as 118 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 3: a result of a joke about Charlie Kirk. They are 119 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 3: one of the people who got swept up on that, 120 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 3: and so we ran a story about kind of what 121 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 3: has happened to them since that occurred, and also just 122 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: sort of like what that moment actually was versus what 123 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: you might be able to misconstrue it as. So, you know, 124 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: at the time, there was all of this furor over 125 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 3: anybody saying anything negative about Charlie Kirk, and so this 126 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 3: person got fired for a relatively innocuous joke that was 127 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: probably in bad taste, but whatever. And so what she's 128 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 3: contending now is like, you know, two months down the line, 129 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 3: she's like, this wasn't actually about the joke. It was 130 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 3: because there was a harassment mob that already existed that 131 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 3: decided to weaponize this person's death to get some people 132 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 3: fired and to you know, basically instill silence in them 133 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 3: and anybody else who witnessed that happening. And you know, 134 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 3: just generally taking the games industry to task for not 135 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 3: defending its people better. Because when this occurred, you know, 136 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 3: the company in question, at least, she says, did not 137 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 3: really like come to her or give her a warning 138 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 3: or really do anything. They were just like, yeah, you're fired. 139 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 3: And you know, as long as the games industry continues 140 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 3: to let that happen, which they've been basically doing since 141 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 3: the original gamer Gate back in twenty fourteen, as you 142 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 3: would well know, then these kinds of things like that 143 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 3: will just continue to let these mobs run rampant and 144 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 3: kind of dictate the pace of conversation around games and 145 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: even in some cases how they get made. 146 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: It is so strange. As a child, I dreamed of 147 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 2: the day that gaming would be a normal thing that 148 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: everybody talked about, And now I feel like that was 149 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: a monkey's poor situation. Maybe we should have less discussion 150 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 2: of you know, no, I don't even mean in an 151 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: immediate sense, in the sense that something happened as games 152 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: came to prominence that dragged up a ton of stuff 153 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: within gamers that wasn't anything to do with games at all. 154 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean I think a few things happened. 155 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 3: One of them is that, you know, for a while, 156 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 3: games were considered this thing like for nerds and for 157 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 3: like outcasts, and so there was always that bit of 158 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 3: a chip on people's shoulder, and that like, once the 159 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 3: mainstream started to care about games, they're like, hey, well, 160 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 3: you know, these are ours, and if you do anything 161 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 3: to them, if they get altered to fit your taste, 162 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: in your needs, then we're going to like do an uprising, 163 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 3: like get really mad. But also that kind of energy, 164 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 3: that kind of like you know, faux victimhood is very 165 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 3: easily easily weaponized by other forces, and I think that 166 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 3: the far right seized upon that quite early. Again with Gamergate. 167 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 3: They noticed that there's this latent kind of resentment running 168 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 3: through games, seeking audiences whatever you want to call them. Yeah, 169 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: like yeah, yeah, we need to find a way to 170 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 3: seize upon that, and Gamergate was the perfect flashpoint. And 171 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 3: ever since then, you know, people much smarter than me 172 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 3: have said this, but like Gamergate was the Canarian the 173 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 3: coal mine for a lot of the modern alt right, 174 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: and that's sort of just how it all started. 175 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: And I wish that they would get angry at the 176 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: real villains, which is electronic odds and the actually look 177 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 2: because can you imagine if any even a iota of 178 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 2: this vile poison in their veins was a like I 179 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 2: know this is somewhat of a tangent, but I swear 180 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 2: I'm going someone playing Madden last night because I hate myself. 181 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: And it's just this game has been broken in the 182 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: same way for fifteen years. They're a little you can 183 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 2: play a game and without fail, we'll see a bug 184 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: I beat you, the menus will hitch, menus won't load, 185 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 2: and it's just see like these harassment campaigns, I think 186 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: as so as you've well put so nakedly, not about 187 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: video games, but just aggression against woman, aggression against any outliers, 188 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: which is ironic considering gate like gamers historic outlier status. 189 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 3: Absolutely when yeah, you know, again, as with a great 190 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: many things, obviously, the real villain, especially in the case 191 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 3: you're describing, is capitalism. Yes, and like you know, if 192 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: you look at Madden sports games in general, as you're saying, 193 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 3: they've been broken in fundamental ways for like decades, but 194 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 3: what's changed about them is that they're just more heavily monetized. Now. 195 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, these companies fatigue. 196 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 3: More ways to extract money, yep, to extract tons of 197 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 3: money from them, and like they're there is anger at 198 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 3: games changing in that way, but not to this degree 199 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 3: where it's like we're going to you know, harass people. 200 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 3: I mean, there are in some cases harassment mobs that 201 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 3: have gone. 202 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: Which they which they shouldn't do to anyone, just to 203 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: be clear, right, no one should. 204 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 3: But also a lot of the developers who end up 205 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 3: in those crosshairs are also just marginalized, and that's the 206 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 3: main reason people are going after them. Yeah, it's very 207 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 3: odd because you would think that games would be this 208 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 3: kind of could be this hotbed for like resistance to 209 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 3: the ravages of capitalism, in that, you know, so many 210 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 3: games present effectively what are supposed to be fair structures. Right, 211 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 3: you get out what you put in, like, you know, 212 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 3: you gain experience for all of your work, you gain rewards, 213 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 3: things like that, and so in a lot of ways, gamers' 214 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 3: brains are tailored to expect a certain degree of fairness 215 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 3: and like egalitarianism. And so you would think that gamers 216 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 3: would look at like all these structures and say, okay, 217 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 3: well there's a problem with the structure. It's not fair 218 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 3: and we should do something about it. But you know, again, 219 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 3: they've been misled by a bunch of various forces, including 220 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 3: the powers that be, including the people who are like 221 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 3: are in charge of making the games, not the developers, 222 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 3: the executives. Yeah, and so they just never quite get there. 223 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 3: But it is kind of funny to think about, like, 224 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 3: you know, this could be the place where it all start, 225 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 3: gamers can start their revolution. 226 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: But I think the aftermath does a really good job 227 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: of that because you have the social stuff. I had 228 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: the term social justice. It's the correct one, but it's 229 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: been bounced around too much now, but it's it's a 230 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 2: place where I think you have done. You have done 231 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 2: some of the best labor work, Like you have a 232 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: labor section, And I think that people need to realize. 233 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 2: I think people need to see games developers as laborers 234 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 2: far more, because I think there are plenty of people 235 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: who are like, oh, these games, how much the game 236 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: developers make seven hundred thousand, yet like that they have 237 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 2: these they see them as this ivory tower job versus 238 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: a pretty brutal, working, stiff job at times, and then 239 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 2: even more so in things like QA. You know, as 240 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 2: long as that still exists as. 241 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 3: An industry, Yeah, right, until it gets replaced by AI 242 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 3: and Square Innex's case. 243 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, that I could not remember the company, thank you 244 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: for being. 245 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, so they want to replace seventy percent of their QA, 246 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 3: or have seventy percent of the QA done by AI. 247 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 3: I'm sure that they have some like bullshit line about 248 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 3: how that won't displace labor, but it's like, but you 249 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 3: just actually waned. 250 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 2: Thinking this out loud. That doesn't make any fucking sense. 251 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 2: First of all, QA, from what I understand, is a 252 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 2: lot of repetitive tasks. So I assume that that's why 253 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: they think AI will work. But is it going to 254 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: play the games? 255 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 3: Because that so Another big problem with that whole line 256 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 3: of reasoning is that QA is like a relationship right 257 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 3: in that you don't just need QA people to do 258 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 3: the job. You also need them to be affect of 259 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 3: communicators to the rest of the studio in terms of 260 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: what they should be looking for in terms of how 261 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 3: to reproduce various bugs and other issues. And another like 262 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: big element of QA that is super underappreciated is that typically, 263 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 3: because the game is made in bits and pieces, QA 264 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 3: is the part of the studio that earliest and most 265 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 3: often gets a full picture of what the game is 266 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 3: like to play and its totality as like a complete 267 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 3: product or is like, and so they can most often 268 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 3: answer the question early on like is this good? 269 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: Is it fun? 270 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: Admittedly, they're playing it in a very specific way, so 271 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 3: they're not necessarily playing it to enjoy themselves, but they 272 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: do have that like broader overview of what it is 273 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 3: kind of turning out to be. And they're all of 274 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 3: those things that I just mentioned. 275 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 2: AIQA is quality is so quality assurance. I probably should 276 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: have led with that, but never but no, you're right, 277 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: and it's I think seeing games as a labor thing 278 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: is so it's genuinely one of my favorite things about 279 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: often off is the if you talk about and now 280 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 2: this is a little bit it copium, hopium, whatever you 281 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: call it, but it's if you do want to change things, 282 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 2: you need to educate people about what's going wrong and 283 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: why I'm not saying that vile right, people are finding 284 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: go after Marth and going, oh, I'm changed. But it's 285 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 2: I feel like you have to build a body of 286 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: work to explain the overall problem. And it is a 287 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: label one. It is the fact that some paraphrasem mcgolfriend here. 288 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: But it's like with movies, it's like there are movies 289 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 2: that are hundred million dollars, there are movies that are 290 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 2: one million dollars, And I feel like games is in 291 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: this weird position too, where it's everything has to be 292 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: Triple A everything, biggest, most hugest game, and then there 293 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: are indie games m and it's I feel like that 294 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: like the capitalism probably you've been discussing, is there too, 295 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 2: where it's the way games are made is broken. And 296 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: I feel like Aftermath does a good job of explaining 297 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: how the breaking has happened, but also the consequences of 298 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: that fracturing. 299 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then also like I think people just don't 300 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 3: understand the scale of game making in general either, Like 301 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 3: you know, certainly there's Triple A and there's indie, but 302 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 3: there's all sorts of stuff in between a lot of 303 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 3: indie games, you know, because like there's been this larger 304 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 3: thing happening in video games where like it's been hard 305 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 3: for companies to secure investment, a lot of games have 306 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 3: gotten canceled, a lot of studios have had to break 307 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 3: up or go their separate ways, and so for a moment, 308 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 3: there was this refrain of Okay, well, like you know, 309 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 3: as a result of all of that and all these 310 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 3: layoffs happening in the Triple A space, you know, pretty 311 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 3: much every major Triple A game company via Microsoft, Sony, 312 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 3: eaub Soft Square, and it's whatever said major layoffs in 313 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: the past couple of years. And so a lot of 314 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 3: people saw that and said, well, you know, Triple A 315 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 3: is collapsing, It's going to go away in five or 316 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 3: ten years. Indies will save us, though, but you know, 317 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 3: indies are facing their own problems again in terms of 318 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 3: securing investment. And also, like a lot of indie games 319 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 3: are not just you know, one person in their garage 320 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 3: or a few people making a game for you know, 321 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 3: pocket change. These are also full scale productions. These can 322 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 3: have thirty, forty, even sometimes one hundred people working on them, 323 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 3: and they all require paychecks, and so quickly the price 324 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 3: for that on a per annual basis goes up to 325 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 3: you know, over a million dollars easily. And so it's like, 326 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 3: you know, indie's can't save us because they're facing a 327 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 3: lot of the same headwinds as everybody else. And recognizing 328 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 3: I think games are made I think allows people to 329 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 3: better get a grip on that and be like, okay, well, 330 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: then the games industry is actually facing a very different 331 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 3: challenges than it might seem on the surface. 332 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, even I, in my own ignorance, didn't even think 333 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 2: of the kind of messy middle of what one hundred 334 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: people working one hundred people would be an indie game studio. 335 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: I guess there can be. It depends on the studio. Man. 336 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 3: Some of them are you know, owned by again Microsoft, 337 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 3: Microsoft owns like half the games industry now, which is 338 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: also bad. But others are yeah, doing their own thing 339 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: and either working with publishers or securing outside funding. And 340 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 3: you know, for every one Clear Obscure Exhibition thirty three, 341 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 3: you get which studios allegedly around thirty people, but they 342 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 3: had tons of other folks touched the game of the 343 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 3: course of its development. You know, you don't get a 344 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 3: lot of other games. They're like others just get canceled, 345 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 3: they die on the vine. They can secure funding, and 346 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 3: you know, the studios either lay people off or cancel 347 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 3: games or both. 348 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean even my favorite game of the Dead Zone, 349 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: Rogue by Prophecy Games, which I love, even that one 350 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: they did Tribes three Rivals and just appears to have 351 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 2: stopped updating it, which it's just it. It almost feels 352 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: like we're reaching a breaking point with this. 353 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 3: And still briefly talk about the number of times that 354 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: people have tried to bring back Tribes and it didn't work. 355 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: It's insane how many Tribes get seventeen twenty five, one 356 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: hundred of them there. I've been playing Tribes games since 357 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: I was like in my teens. 358 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 3: Why in theory Tribes should be able to find an audience? 359 00:17:58,320 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 3: Like we live in a time now where people are 360 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 3: always for a new multiplayer game. Tribes is really interesting 361 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 3: and different compared to pretty much every multiplayer game. You 362 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 3: can ski around and like you know, figure out your 363 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 3: trajectories and launch blue discs of people. 364 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: It rules. 365 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 3: It's one of like the best multiplayer ever in my opinion, 366 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 3: and like you know, giant maps, huge landscapes, that's what 367 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 3: like Battlefield is doing now. People love that shit. And 368 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 3: so it's so oddome funny thing that each and every 369 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 3: revival and they've been like relatively well spaced out. It's 370 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 3: not like they're you know, doing these in like staccato rhythm, 371 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 3: but each and every revival has just you know, been 372 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 3: dead on arrival basically. 373 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: Like it's it's really sad to see them. 374 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, six of the six of them, it looks like, 375 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 2: my bad, I can't count. It's with that one. Maybe 376 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 2: it's the indie game thing, which is a giant map 377 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: is probably not that easy to put together. And if 378 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: you look at Try I didn't play Tribes three Rivals, 379 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: but if you look at Dead Zone Rogue, which is 380 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: FBS Rogue, like it's very I don't want to say small, 381 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 2: but it's condensed. It's like a very focused game. But 382 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: I want to change it because I'll just talk about 383 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: dates road to the Steam Machine. How are you feeling? 384 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 2: It's the Steam Machine, as you'll know from the episode 385 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 2: before this one with Steve book is the new gaming 386 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 2: console style Steam PC thing. How are you feeling about it? 387 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: I'm oddly hopeful. 388 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 389 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 3: I mean so Valve tried to release Steam machines a 390 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 3: handful of years ago as well, I think in the 391 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 3: mid twenty games, and they kind of crashed and burned 392 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: or whatever. 393 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: They just never took off. 394 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 3: I think that Valve learned a lot of very important 395 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 3: lessons from that, and I think that also just the 396 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 3: timing is much better now in terms of what people 397 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 3: are looking for. In terms of the prominence of PC gaming. 398 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 3: Back in the mid twenty tens, you know, consoles still 399 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 3: kind of ruled the roost, whereas now, like if we're 400 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 3: talking about higher end video game playing, pretty much everyone 401 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: does it or not everyone, but a lot of people 402 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 3: do it on their PCs because that also allows them 403 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 3: to you know, create content, you know, stream things of 404 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 3: that nature. And then Steam itself, which Valve owns and operates, 405 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 3: has also become so much bigger than it was even 406 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 3: back then it was already huge. Now basically is the epicenter, 407 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 3: the mecca of PC gaming. And so then you get 408 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 3: to the Steam machines themselves, and you know, there's long 409 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 3: been this perception that the PC is for a lot 410 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 3: of normal people kind of impenetrable from a gaming standpoint. 411 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: You know, you got to install the game and install 412 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 3: these patches, and then like you know, maybe it won't 413 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 3: work with your particular hardware configuration. 414 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah blahlah blah. 415 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 3: And so what Valve is basically saying is, okay, well 416 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 3: we will handle all that for you, as you might 417 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 3: expect with a video game console. And then you know, 418 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: you just click on a game and it'll work. And 419 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 3: they have a couple of things working in their favor 420 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 3: on that front. One is that they have since made 421 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: steam Os. Steam Os is a great little operating system 422 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 3: for video games. That's the whole point. Again, it's super 423 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 3: plug and play, it's really easy. And then also the 424 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 3: entire model they're going to play in Steam machines they 425 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 3: have already successfully deployed with steam Deck, which is they're handheld. 426 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 3: Steam Deck is an incredible piece of hardware. It is 427 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 3: deceptively powerful, it feels really nice in your hands, and 428 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 3: it's all entirely steam Os based, and so you can 429 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,719 Speaker 3: just install a game on it. Steam OUs will let 430 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 3: you know if it's going to run well or not. 431 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 3: Valve has this entire system where like they basically like 432 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 3: will play games to see if they're Deck verified or 433 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 3: if they're like you know, sort of edge cases where 434 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 3: they'll work but they're not optimized, or if they're just 435 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: like going to be a mess. They let you know 436 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 3: that up front, so you can go in with a 437 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 3: good idea of how it's all going to function, and 438 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 3: then you just do it. It's great, it's super smart. And 439 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 3: then you have your saves across like steam Deck and 440 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 3: every other place that you can install steam so you 441 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 3: could theoretically be playing on your steam Deck in one 442 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 3: room and decide you want to play on your TV, 443 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 3: your monitor, just your Steam machine. Yeah, yeah, you can do. Yeah, 444 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 3: it's so, it's so nice. It's it's I mean sayable 445 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 3: about Valve. They are like a libertarian kind of nightmare company, 446 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 3: but they do still make cool stuff. Unlike every their 447 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 3: video game working trying to cut their weight to profitability 448 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 3: by laying everyone off. 449 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 2: M I'm I want it, and I want this to 450 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: kill the I don't know if it will. It's going 451 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 2: to come down heavily to if it's six hundred dollars 452 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 2: versus twelve hundred dollars, and if it's sold in retailers, 453 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: but it's I wanted to smash Microsoft. I also think, 454 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: and this is a somewhat I know people aren't going 455 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: to like this. I don't think game pass is good 456 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 2: for the games industry. 457 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 3: No, no, And I think a lot of people would 458 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 3: agree with you, at least in the games industry. 459 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I don't think I think it creates I 460 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: don't know. I have a weird thing with streaming services 461 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 2: in general. I think that they create a race to 462 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 2: the bottom and actually make things way more unfair. But 463 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 2: I like that Steam charges per game. I think it's 464 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: good to do that, and I think variety of games 465 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: is good and a variety of. 466 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: Prices as well. 467 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 2: I don't know. I know they're deeply imperfect company, but 468 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 2: I genuinely think Microsoft might be walking away from the 469 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 2: Xbox or Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure why they 470 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 2: have it anymore. 471 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean they have their whole campaign now 472 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 3: where they're basically saying like anything can be an Xbox. 473 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: That's their marketing line. 474 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 3: So the basic concept is, like you know, now Xbox 475 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 3: is more of an ecosystem, an app based ecosystem that 476 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 3: lives on not just the gaming platform that you have, 477 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 3: you know, in your living room, Like it could be 478 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 3: on your smart TV, it could be on your phone, 479 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 3: it could even like be in your car, and like 480 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 3: it just seems in general that they don't really know 481 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 3: what the brand is anymore. And that also goes back 482 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 3: to like the game selection, like what is the last 483 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 3: major first party Xbox game that came out or that 484 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 3: like became the face of the platform. So, you know, 485 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: question the fact that everyone still associates Microsoft with like 486 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 3: Halo is on one handed testament to the enduring power 487 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 3: or nature I guess of like the Master chief. But 488 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 3: on the other hand, like that game came out in 489 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 3: the early two thousand and still it's the main thing 490 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 3: that people are like, Oh, yeah, that's Halo or that's Xbox. 491 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 2: So I actually just had to look this up for 492 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,719 Speaker 2: the first party games Doom the Dark Ages. 493 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because that Microsoft bought in Software and Bethesda 494 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 3: a while ago, so they own those companies now. That's 495 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 3: the other thing is in order to have more recognizable 496 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 3: IP they just bought a bunch of studios, and then 497 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 3: in recent years, because of the Activision Blizzard purchase and 498 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 3: how expensive that was, and also just you know, trends 499 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 3: in gaming, Microsoft has been laying everyone the fuck off. 500 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 3: They've laid off over four thousand people in the past 501 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 3: two years in games alone, and that's like a significant 502 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 3: chunk of you know, workers at those studios. It's like 503 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 3: a really bad situation over there. I mean, on the upside, 504 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 3: due to other stuff that takes a while to explain, 505 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 3: they did let a lot of people unionize, but then 506 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 3: also the most recent layoffs cut into the union's pretty 507 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 3: badly too. 508 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: I don't think Microsoft knows what the fuck they're doing. 509 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 2: Because you talk about you're correct and saying Yeah, they 510 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 2: want to build the ecosystem, but the ecosystem fucking sucks. 511 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 2: I remember it used to be a while ago that 512 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: I use what like a couple of years ago, I'd 513 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: say I'd use the Xbox to be like, oh, this 514 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: is kind of clean and functional. It's got a few 515 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 2: dodads to it. Now, every time I load it up, 516 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: it feels like I'm on the fucking Las Vegas strips. 517 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 2: I can add for a movie, right, but it's trying 518 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: to make me download a kids like it. It's fucking bizarre. 519 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 3: It's about to get a way worse because you know Microsoft, 520 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 3: as you well know, Microsoft is now obsessed with that 521 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 3: in AI to every potential product and feature they can 522 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 3: possibly get their hands on. And so yeah, they're going 523 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 3: to load you know, the Xbox ecosystem down with AI 524 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 3: products as well. 525 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like and. 526 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: Then on top of that, I guess like the best 527 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 3: example here is again to go back to Valve and Steam. 528 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 3: I think that if Microsoft had been building the kind 529 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 3: of platform that Steam has been for the past, you know, 530 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: well over a decade, then they'd be in a good 531 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 3: position to do what they're hoping to do with the 532 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 3: Xbox now, which is to put it to to ensure 533 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 3: that it's basically everywhere. But you know, so like the 534 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 3: Microsoft recently put out their own version of the Asis 535 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 3: rog Ally, which is a handheld. 536 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 2: I like my rog Ally, but like, yeah, everything I've 537 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: heard about the new one, I thought they were going 538 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: to do something special with it. 539 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 3: No, they just put like a fucking shitty version of 540 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 3: Windows on it where you still have to like, you know, 541 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 3: because again, you want that to be like a plug 542 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 3: and play product out in the box, you're ready to go, 543 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 3: and instead, I guess, like when you first open it up, 544 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: you've got to install all this stuff and do all 545 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 3: these updates, and it's just like tedious and horrible and 546 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 3: all for an interface that still peels. And comparison to 547 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 3: Steam in terms of just usability and versatility and like cleanness. 548 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: It's so weird, Like compared to the Steam Deck is 549 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 2: what I'm talking about. The rock Laxa before the Xbox One. 550 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 2: It's it's just front tends on frontends. It's just how 551 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 2: we've got an a Zeus layer We've got, but we've 552 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 2: got another fucking layer here, and now you can load 553 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 2: up an Xbox thing, which is a different layer and 554 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 2: if you hit the wrong button, it will load a 555 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 2: completely separate menu. And it really seems to be that 556 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 2: no one sat down and went what if this worked? 557 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: Like what if this just because the Steam deck I 558 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: bought one of those early on? It is. It's chunky, 559 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 2: it's too chunky. In fact, it's a little bit too big. However, 560 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 2: it just fucking works. He just did the button that 561 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 2: did load the game login by gameplay game fucking do 562 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 2: algebra to make it. It's not gonna I'm not gonna 563 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: brush a button with my hand and have it kick 564 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 2: back to the wind those desktop. It's just it feels 565 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 2: almost loathing for the customer at this. 566 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 3: Point, right right, I mean it's a mix of loathing 567 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 3: for the customer and then like if we're talking about 568 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 3: Microsoft and like, yeah, just maximal you know, at least 569 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 3: attempted profit extraction. But as you're saying, they didn't really 570 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 3: think all the way down to the level of what 571 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 3: will the end user experience be like and how does 572 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 3: it compare to this other thing that's already out there, 573 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 3: and it's already setting the standard for what people expect, 574 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 3: and like, if that's where you're coming from, then you 575 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 3: will forever. And I think this is also part of 576 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: Microsoft's problem in general. If that is the way that 577 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 3: you were thinking and approaching the creation of your video 578 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 3: game devices and services, you will always be at least 579 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 3: in second place, if not third. And Microsoft has always 580 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 3: been in third in the gaming space. 581 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're like, I don't even know how the 582 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: economics of buying these studios even works out for them, 583 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 2: because didn't they lose money when they bought Activision? Oh yeah, 584 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 2: people weren't buying Like who is mister Bean running Microsoft Gaming? 585 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: It just feels insane to every time I see them 586 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 2: do something. 587 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I mean like again, you know, the 588 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 3: question now is what is the strategy, because I think, yeah, 589 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 3: for a while, the strategy was very much all in 590 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 3: on game pass. That's why they bought so many studios. 591 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 3: That's why they bought Activision, Blizzard and everything else, because 592 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 3: they're like, well, we have this service that is going 593 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 3: to be the backbone of everything else we do, and 594 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: we need to populate it with content. We need regular 595 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 3: new games to be coming out. So if we buy 596 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 3: a third of the fucking video game industry and have 597 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 3: them pump out new content, then we'll be set. But 598 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 3: the problem with game Pass is that the economics of 599 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 3: it just aren't great. Like, I mean, for one, Yeah, 600 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 3: like Microsoft will repeatedly insist the game Pass is profitable, 601 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 3: but that's only if you like don't pay attention to 602 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 3: the upfront costs of the studios under Microsoft's umbrella making 603 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 3: the games, or the costs of the studios themselves. Once 604 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 3: you like get past Microsoft's you know, fake math, it's like, 605 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 3: oh no, this thing is not profitable at all. And 606 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 3: so Microsoft billion Activision Blizzard alone. Yeah, but no, once 607 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 3: you realize that, and I think Microsoft did, then they're like, ah, okay, 608 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 3: we gotta you know, diversify this further. 609 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: We got to figure out something else to do. 610 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 3: And so they started saying, okay, well, then we're going 611 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 3: to have our big, you know, first party games on 612 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,719 Speaker 3: other platforms. We're gonna sell them on PlayStation and other 613 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 3: places as well, because that'll help us recoup some costs. 614 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 3: We got to crank up the price of game Pass 615 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 3: because that might help absorb some of the costs. And 616 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 3: so like they just start slowly and shitifying everything, like 617 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 3: you know, as with every other company, to make up 618 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 3: for the fact that they this gamble is not paying off. 619 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 2: Well, I I am hoping that Valve can overtake the 620 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 2: entire exp I want them to take Xbox down because 621 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 2: I also want I'm weirdly getting onto like death to streaming, 622 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: death to game Pass and all this. I think it's 623 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: bad for everyone, but also they make good user interfaces. 624 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: It feels nothing. I don't feel like I'm being smacked 625 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 2: in the face when I use the products. I mean, 626 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: I like my Sony PlayStation. I sound one hundred million 627 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 2: years on my Saturny painstation. But even then my switch 628 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 2: to as well, partly because I load them. 629 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 3: When they work, yeah, they turn out like it's it's 630 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 3: a very low bar to clear, but in this day 631 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 3: and age, it is a necessary one to like clarify. Well, 632 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 3: it's a product, or like it's a piece of hardware, 633 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 3: and it functions. It's just like you can it does 634 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 3: what it says on the ten. Yeah, yeah, it's I 635 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 3: have hope for it. And I mean I want I 636 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 3: want a Steam machine. I want to Steam frame. 637 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 2: And ovis pro truther. 638 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, although I will say, like I don't know if 639 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 3: these Steam machines will necessarily compete directly with something like 640 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 3: the Xbox Valves already said that they don't plan to 641 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 3: subsidize the hardware in a way that would bring the 642 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 3: price down so that it's comparable necessarily to a PlayStation 643 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 3: or an Xbox. A lot of people are guessing more 644 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 3: we will be in the territory of like the PlayStation 645 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 3: five pro just a little bit price here my personal guess, 646 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 3: because they've said that it will be comparable to if 647 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 3: you were to buy all of the components for a 648 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 3: PC of similar power and a symbol at yourself, which 649 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 3: that does bring the price down in the world of 650 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 3: PC gaming a lot, right. You know, you buy a 651 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 3: midrange PC pre built, that's going to be fifteen hundred 652 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 3: dollars and more. If you assemble it yourself, you could 653 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 3: be looking at you know, eight hundred one thousand dollars. 654 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 3: My guess is that that's where it lands, probably somewhere 655 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 3: in the eight hundred and two thousand range that would be. 656 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: That's about the price of the rug achs Ally and. 657 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 3: So yeah, and like again, you know, we're still in 658 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 3: a time of tariffs and things of that nature. So 659 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 3: you know, I don't think steam machines are necessarily going 660 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 3: to be at least price wise as accessible as an Xbox, 661 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 3: at least out the gate. You know, maybe Valwful will 662 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 3: evolve their strategy over time. Have certainly done that with 663 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 3: a lot of other products. But you know, we'll see 664 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 3: they Valve is something of a black box, so they 665 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,719 Speaker 3: only tell you as much as they want to it 666 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 3: any given moment, and the rest you either divine through 667 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 3: their actions or they eventually come out and say, okay, 668 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 3: well that was kind of a miss. 669 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: We're going to change things up now, all right. 670 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: So to wrap us up, let's go positive. What are 671 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 2: you playing at the moment? What games are you enjoying? 672 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: What? What have you enjoyed this year? Let's get to them. 673 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 3: Okay, okay, let's see what if I enjoyed this year. 674 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 3: Let's see I mean Haities two. Although I feel like 675 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 3: narratively it's narratively, I feel like it's a lot weaker 676 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 3: than the first game, but gameplay wise it is so 677 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 3: much better. It is one of those games where you know, 678 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 3: every time that you finish a run, you're like, well, 679 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 3: I could do one more, and then suddenly forty five 680 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 3: minutes or an hour or three hours have disappeared, you know, 681 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 3: so obviously front Runner for game of the year for me. 682 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 3: Let's see, I was thinking about this game the other night. 683 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 3: Eternal Strand. It's this game that I played earlier this 684 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 3: year from a bunch of x BI were people. It's 685 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 3: kind of like an indie take on I would say, 686 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 3: a mixture of like Monster Hunter and Dragon's Dogma. It's 687 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 3: on PC, and I think it might be on other 688 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 3: platforms too. I played it on PC. Yeah, it's just 689 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 3: really cool. It's one of those games where you're taking 690 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 3: down gigantic enemies all the time, and you're doing it 691 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 3: by like climbing on them and having these like battles 692 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 3: that span these huge maps where like everything things are destructible, 693 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 3: so like you know, you're fighting a dragon, you're like 694 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 3: leaping on its back. It's flying away with you on 695 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 3: it and trying to shake you off. It's burning everything. 696 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: It's like three D third person situational. 697 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's really cool. 698 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 3: It's it came out at the very beginning of the year, 699 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 3: and so I was like, what, what games have I 700 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 3: really liked that sort of you know, maybe I have 701 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 3: forgotten about. It's like, oh yeah, Eternal Strand, that game rocks. 702 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 2: That's so cool. I'm so glad there's still make because 703 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 2: I and I'm not saying you're being negative, there's a 704 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 2: lot of negativity out there. It's nice they're still making funny, 705 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 2: fun games like Hades two. Really I played that all 706 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 2: through early access and then in the full one, and 707 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 2: you can just see the love. I like the ending. 708 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say with this, I like what they did. 709 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 2: I think it was strange. But you know what, the 710 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 2: amount of the amount of game I got out of 711 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 2: that game? 712 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean there's no doubt that there is 713 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,280 Speaker 1: tons of game crammed in that game. 714 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: The best value. 715 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of like slaps hood. There's so much 716 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 3: game in this game. This game can fit so much games. 717 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 2: So it's so weird to play a game like that 718 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 2: and be like, Wow, you really love making get You 719 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 2: really thought about this, because when I first played it, 720 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 2: I got kind of pissed off because the systems were 721 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 2: so different. Cool, but you can see that they've thought 722 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: for hours about the intricacies of different meta or different combinations. 723 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 3: It's just love super So you know, if we want 724 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 3: a happy kind of like games industry labor story, at 725 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 3: least as far as I understand it, Like the last 726 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 3: time I talked to them, and it has been a minute. 727 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 3: Like super Giant has really well run on that front. 728 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 3: Like I don't think they have had much employee attrition 729 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 3: at all since they started. Everyone who ends up at 730 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 3: super Giant just stays at super Giant. And like when 731 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 3: I interviewed them about this years ago, they mentioned, you know, 732 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 3: like they have things like mandatory vacation, like if you 733 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 3: don't take your vacation by the end of the year, 734 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 3: you have to just take time off, like you know, 735 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 3: people are just oh yeah. They also have policies around 736 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 3: like emails, like if it's Friday at five pm, you're 737 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 3: not allowed to email people anymore, even because they're like, 738 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 3: you might be really excited about something you're working on. 739 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 3: If you want to keep working on something, that's fine, 740 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 3: but like, don't drag other people into it, Like let 741 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 3: people have their free time and their space to you know, 742 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 3: not be embroiled in this process. 743 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, whoa because the game is so tight and good 744 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 2: and perfect, you don't have to hurt people to do 745 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 2: this right. 746 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 3: Well, Also, you can, just as you were saying, you 747 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 3: can tell the people who made it care. And I 748 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 3: think more than that, you can tell they were having 749 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 3: fun when they're making it. They were enjoying the process 750 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 3: of creating this thing they cared a lot about. And ultimately, 751 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 3: when it comes to art, commercial art, that's what you want, 752 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 3: is you know, on one hand, you want people to 753 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 3: get paid, you want them to be compensated well for 754 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 3: their labor. But on the other hand, like in an 755 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 3: ideal world, you want them to be enjoying themselves. If 756 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 3: we're going to be locked into jobs for our whole lives, 757 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 3: then we may as well enjoy the process. 758 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 2: Well, I couldn't agree more. And I must say Aftermath 759 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,439 Speaker 2: gets the better of Flying thumbs up. And we will 760 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 2: have a link to everything in the get in the 761 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 2: episode notes. Now. 762 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 3: We are also having a We're having a sale on 763 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 3: subscriptions right now, one dollar for your first month. It's 764 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 3: a great deal if you want to come, you know, 765 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 3: check out the sites you we're about. Yeah, you should 766 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 3: absolutely take advantage of that. That'll be going until the 767 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 3: end of well middle of December, basically yeah. 768 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 2: Cool, which and this will be out by then. And 769 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 2: I have subscribed to Aftermath since the beginning and I 770 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 2: will continue to do so. Please support independent medium myself included, 771 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 2: but really give give give them a look. The new 772 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 2: redesign is awesome. Nathan, Thank you so much for joining 773 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 2: us US. 774 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: Yeah again, thank you for having me. It's always wonderful 775 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: to come on. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. 776 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 4: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song 777 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 4: is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music 778 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 4: and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T 779 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 4: T O S O W s ki dot com. You 780 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 4: can email me at easy at Better Offline dot com, 781 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 4: or visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast 782 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 4: links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend 783 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 4: you go to chat dot Where's youreed dot at to 784 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 4: visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline 785 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:41,280 Speaker 4: to check out our reddit. 786 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a 787 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, 788 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us 789 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 790 00:38:54,760 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: get your podcasts.