WEBVTT - An Interview with Best Woman Herself, Rose Dommu 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:08.000 Go. Welcome to NPR. I'm Terry Gross and I'm Terry Grosser. 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:12.360 Is Terry Gross even doing Is she still doing the pod? 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.200 I don't. She could be dead for all I know. 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.400 Are you going to storm out of this interview the 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.680 way Adam Driver stormed out of his Terry Gross interview? 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.360 Is that we're calling this an interview? Yes? Okay, this 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.319 is it. This is a stop on your pressed for 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.840 This is the like a virgin special edition, special edition 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.920 RSS feed drop, the rare RSS feed drop, as long 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:41.280 as we can pressure Phoebe into posting it because neither 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.480 of us know how to do that. Yeah, and it will, 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:49.120 it will, Yeah, and you know this, this uh formally 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:54.520 will be the official official Friend and Rose interview about 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:59.040 a book called Best Woman by Rose DomU. It is 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:04.200 available and purchasable for pre order on bookshop dot org 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.880 among other websites. You also, if you're in New York, 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:11.319 you have to come and see Rose and heron Walker 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:16.200 in conversation at the Strand on September twenty third, really 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.720 chic date, September twenty Russia. You can get your take. 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:21.800 I think there's like a ticket option with a book 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:26.800 and a ticket option without a book available in Rose's 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:29.240 link tree, in her bio or a social Bible. Will 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:32.240 also put a linked tickets in the description of this 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.520 podcast episode, so you can mosey on over there to 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:37.720 get your ticket. I want to see you there. I'll 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:41.200 be there. There's also a Los Angeles event there is 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.880 I'm going to be in Los Angeles doing an event 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:51.320 at Annabelle's Book Club on October eighth I'm also going 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:58.000 to be at Greedy Read's in Baltimore on October second, Baltimore, 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:03.440 and I'm going to be in both gratone on October eighteenth, 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.720 and literally my entire family and all my mom's friends 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.639 will be there, which I love. And if you're not familiar, 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.680 I mean Deer's Virgins. I know you've heard us talk 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:18.000 about Rose's book in some capacity or another, basically every 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:20.400 other episode of the podcast. You know we've been edging. 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:24.600 We've been edging, edging edge Lords. We are. If you're 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:30.200 not familiar already with the premise of Roses book, it 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.919 does take place in Boca Raton, Florida, or large large 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.560 portions of it take place in book Raton, Florida, where 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:41.440 Rose is from. I kind of want to give. I 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:42.919 want you to give us a little summary, but like, 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:47.120 can you start by telling us what Booka Ratone, Florida is, 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:52.679 Like maybe how it influenced your malgoth persona, your your 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.480 personal malgoth persona, and then I guess, kind of how 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.240 does it become the backdrop for this book. Boca Ratone 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.760 is a very weird place, which is why I always 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.600 wanted to write a book that was set there. And 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:11.240 there's a lot of old people there, So that's Heaven's 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:15.120 waiting room, God's waiting room. Yes, I know, I've made 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:19.560 that joke on this podcast several times. Yeah. I mean 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:23.200 it's a lot of like very affluent people, a lot 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.799 of old people, a lot of Jewish people. Ariana Grande 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.760 is from there. Ariana Grande is from there, as am 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.000 I mother Teresa's from there. It's a very weird place 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:36.040 to be a child, yes, just because everyone so old. 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:41.040 Like the neighborhood I grew up in, there were no 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:46.360 other children in. You had no peers, no peers, you 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:49.280 only had old. I only had old. So I do 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.040 think that really explains a lot why I am the 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.760 way I am kind of does. And there's this kind 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.880 of with the again, we're going to get into the 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.280 plot of the book. But the character of this book, 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:07.880 Best Woman kind of uh comes in. It kind kind 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:12.520 of interfaces with the kind of JENSI quad the kind 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.240 of on we of is that's how it's pronounced right 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.560 on on we Yeah, I've did. I used to pronounce 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:23.120 that anwie yes, yes, the on wee of returning to 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.760 your childhood, returning to your like childhood bedroom, or returning 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:32.640 to your returning to your hometown, and the just like 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.960 the great sadness, the great and unamable sadness that it 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.320 kind of instills in you, yes, and also the string 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.320 and the kind of immediate regression that happens when you 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:48.599 return home. I noticed for so long that every time 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.880 I would visit home, I would immediately I would like, 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.680 within eight hours, I would become fifteen again, and I 0:04:55.680 --> 0:05:01.479 would be like, oh mom, And that is such a 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:06.520 tense experience. It's so weird to go somewhere where everybody 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:10.000 knows you, but like no one actually really knows you. Yeah. 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:14.599 And it's like so that the primary character, Julia, she 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:24.159 kind of comes home specifically for a wedding, and in 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:28.520 she's kind of immediately reminded of like a lot of 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:32.000 like I want to say, like ghosts. That sounds like 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:33.800 a little more dramatic than it actually is. But there's 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.520 a lot of these kind of ghosts of her, of 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.320 her past, of her growing up, of just like what 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.560 it felt like to be in Boca that I think 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.240 are very I just related to them part, even though 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:49.240 because I'm from a suburb, I don't know if Bocaca. Okay, 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:50.880 so I'm from this I'm kind of from the suburbs. 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:52.160 I was born on the South Side, was raised in 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.520 the suburbs. And there's this just kind of like really 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.680 weird dissonance that you experience, especially I mean definitely as 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:04.000 a queer person, especially as a transperson reinstating yourself in 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:08.160 this context. Anyways, Okay, I'm being very terrogressed right now, 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:12.480 but will you do me the honor of giving a 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.279 plot summary for the people that are not awareer of 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:20.040 the of course. So Best Woman is about Julia Rosenberg, 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.640 who is a trans woman in her late twenties living 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.559 in New York City. She is a couple of years 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:31.320 into her transition. Right before she started transitioning, her brother 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.800 got engaged and asked her to be the best man 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:39.120 at his wedding, and then when she transitioned, she became 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:41.919 the best woman, the best woman. At the beginning of 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.960 the novel, she's a couple of weeks out from the 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:51.799 wedding and going to get her best woman dress, best 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:55.440 woman dress. And I've never actually done this thing that 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:57.440 happens in the book, which is like the appointment to 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.200 get your dress that everyone has to wear. Yeah, ever 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.440 done that either, But I've watched a lot of says 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:06.720 to the dress, so I feel like I have an 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:12.080 understanding of it. Okay. So she finds out that early 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.800 in the novel that the maid of honor in her 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:20.400 brother's wedding has dropped out. Slash been kicked out because 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.000 she was uncomfortable with the idea of walking down the 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:29.679 aisle with Julia because she is transphobic, and now replacing 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.720 the maid of honor is Kim Cameron, Julia's number one 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:39.320 ultimate high school crush, who is a very hot, sexy, 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:45.240 confident lesbian. As a reader, this is this is the 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.520 part where you realize that this book is an entry 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:53.960 into the sapphic kind of romance canon. Yes, it is 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:59.760 truly a lesbian romance. What's a bisexual Bulia. Julia is 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.960 by sexual and she does. She does have a male 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:05.840 love interest in the novel too, who's more of just 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:11.480 like a hometown hookup. Because she is she is a 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:17.480 chaotic bisexual slut and I love her for that. So 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.240 what the tension of the novel kind of hinges of is. 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:26.960 During an early interaction where Julia has seen Kim again, 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:33.960 she makes the mistake of telling this little white lie, 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:42.760 which is that her family is actually more transphobic transphobic 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:48.160 than they actually are. They're actually pretty accepting. She does 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:54.800 this in a very misguided bid to gain Kim's sympathy 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.960 to her. Yes, because of an interaction that they have, 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:04.680 and and because she is kind of at this place 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.800 in her transition where she feels like she has accomplished 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:11.400 a lot of her goals and feels affirmed in a 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:15.800 lot of ways. But this girl kind of represents this 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:20.520 like last hurdle of her womanhood, which is this lesbian 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.000 who she was obsessed with in high school and knew 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:24.800 she would never be able to get because at that 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.880 time she presented as male. And so she has this 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.960 idea that if she's able to successfully you know, kind 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:41.040 of con this girl into likely lightly but con into 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:45.359 being interested in her romantically. Then that will be proof 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:50.120 that she really is the woman she has always wanted 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.520 to be and seen herself as. This is very much 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:58.719 inspired by my best friend's wedding, and you know, the 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:04.959 idea of a very unlikable protagonist who lies and makes 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.240 bad decisions to get what she wants. And I really 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.760 wanted to see a trans character be able to do 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.040 that because I feel like in a lot of a 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.360 lot of media depictions of trans people they have to 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:21.240 be either like saints or victims or a murderers, And 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:26.600 I wanted to see a really complicated trans protagonist who 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:28.600 you just kind of want to shake and go what 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.959 are you doing? Like are you doing? I very much 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.600 see Julia as like a little sister. I'm like, what 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.840 is wrong with you? So that is the setup, and 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:38.920 then the bulk of the novel takes place over the 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.760 wedding week in book ratone, as Julia reunites with her family, 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.840 all while staying connected to her friends back in New 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.480 York City who are like very much her chosen family. 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:57.560 And there's a really big cast of kooky characters, shenanigans, En, Sue, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:05.319 and there's some steamy hookups and some very painful growth 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.319 for lots of the people involved. I don't want to 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.400 give too much of the book away, but I want 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:16.840 to dig a little bit more into the plot in that. So, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:23.280 as you mentioned, there's this the the thematic tension kind 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:31.920 of starts with this, uh this, like, I guess, like 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.360 not so great choice of emotionally manipulating her high school 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:41.160 crush Kim Cameron at a cheesecake factory. And a dream 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:43.439 of mine was always to set a scene in a 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.720 novel at factory. And I did it, and you did it, 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.440 and it felt like I was there. Maybe we never 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.880 had our cheesecake factory day, remember when we were supposed 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:56.640 to have our our like a virgin holiday party, but 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.400 we couldn't because what COVID something like that like that. 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:06.360 But yeah, so so the the all of the tension 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:12.559 kind of starts in this moment where like Julia decides 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.000 to lie and save her family's a little transphobic, and 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.800 it kind of works immediately and Kim Cameron has all 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:22.360 of this cis guilt that like she like soaks the 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.440 conversation and being like, oh my god, you I mean 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:26.559 she's not like you, poor thing. But the affect is 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.640 very like you poor thing. It's very the subtext is 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.640 very You're so brave, and you're so brave, and oh, 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.080 I want to take care of you, and oh, this 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:39.679 is like maybe feeding already a kind of funny romantic 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.559 dynamic as well, because it is immediately I would say 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.920 it's I think it's pretty clear from jump that Kim 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.040 is into Julia, like she kind of said she she 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.920 all but says that that's a possibility, but it's also 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:58.720 it's like like with in terms of like her actions, 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.760 but it's also like she doesn't. It's not immediately, do 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:03.560 you know what I mean? Well, it's I think it's 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:09.040 more so that Kim's interest is very clear, but Julia 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:15.959 can't or won't let herself believe it. She can't trust it, 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:22.520 and she thinks that this manipulation of the truth is 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:28.040 kind of justified because this girl will never organically like 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:33.120 her when the evidence is staring her right in the face. 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.040 And you know, I don't want to give too much away, 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.920 but there is a point like through the novel where 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.480 it is pretty clear that Kim is interested in her, 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:47.280 and even knowing that, Julia still continues on with her 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:56.679 deception because she is an incredibly anxious, insular person. Like 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.000 that was one of the most fun parts of the novel, was, 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:04.760 you know, it's toll from first person perspective, and you 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:09.119 spend so much time in Julia's head. She really overthinks everything. 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.480 That's one of the ways in which she is like me. 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:19.720 And even with the proof of all of these different things, 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.840 her her family's acceptance, this girl's interest staring her in 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:29.320 the face, she still is seeing demons around every corner, 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.240 and what is the name? So if so, she lies 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:35.960 and she says her family's not that accepting. It's more 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:41.640 so that it's more so that she doesn't correct Kim 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:48.400 when she makes a sort of assumption. And I think 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:54.000 that's why Julia feels kind of almost like self righteous 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:57.400 about it, is like, well, she already assumed, and so 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.000 I'm just not correcting her, And it was her fault 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:02.920 for assuming in the first place that I was some 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.680 like poor little tranny that she needed to save. And 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.800 the real life nature of Julia's relationship with her family 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.360 is kind of more like, you know, mom and Dad 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:17.119 might might not have been totally understanding of it initially, 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.960 but ultimately really really understanding. She also has an older 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:26.600 brother and two twin siblings, two younger twin siblings. The brother, 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.360 I think I could say is like the most accepting, 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:36.760 but on the hint of this lie, Julie kind of 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:40.280 positions him as maybe the least accepting kind of Yeah, 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:44.000 she really throws him under the bus, the darkest lie. Yeah, 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:45.960 that is the darkest lie because with the rest of 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:47.760 her family, you know, like, what I really wanted to 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:54.360 explore is this nuance of queer acceptance where your family can, 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:56.120 you know, say all the right things and do the 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.680 right things, but there's still kind of a stinky vibe 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:02.960 of like, you know, it's still all a little conditional, 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.760 the way that you use a she her pronoun with 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.680 an emphatic kind of or it's like, I only see 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.160 you as a woman if you do these certain things 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:15.120 that I expect a woman is supposed to do. And 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.400 with Julia's brother, Aidan, he really is the one in 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:23.240 her family who has embraced her identity the most, and 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.520 maybe even more so than well no, with her mother 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.880 there her transition did bring them closer in a way, 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.120 and with her and Aiden, they've always been close and 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.200 Aiden's Aiden's he's her younger brother, so like a young 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:41.360 oh and with Aiden, like they were always close and 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:45.480 so her her transition really changed nothing about their relationship, 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:49.480 which is like such great proof to her that she 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:56.360 has the support she is looking for and why it 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:01.640 makes it all the harder to justify what she's done. 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.240 And that is the place I wanted her to be. 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.680 I really wanted the reader to be really frustrated with Julia, 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:15.000 because that's fun, yeah, and like, well, that frustration is 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.560 really I think that frustration is the thing that is 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.159 like perhaps in my experience of reading the book, the 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.000 most interesting part of it, which is that like you know, 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:29.280 her her mom and dad are like very accepting now, 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:33.399 but they've come a little ways to get there, and 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.000 so there's still this like there's this tension. There's just 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.640 feeling like the certain the way the way her mom 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.159 uses that she her pronent still feels a little a 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:46.640 type of way, or that this these very little ways 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.399 that SIS people, SIS family meverse can still disappoint us 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.959 even when they're trying, creates this like negative kind of 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:59.000 foil to it that I think, and sometimes it's the 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:03.560 trying that feels hard, like like what like because like 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:09.359 sometimes like the lack of effort is the effort, you know, 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.440 when someone is not making it clear that there's something 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:18.720 different or weird or quote unquote special about you, versus 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.600 when someone is clearly putting an effort, when there's an 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.520 emphasis on the she or the girl, or when assist 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.680 girl is like hey lady, you know like that that 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:35.320 is almost more hurtful than an out as would rather 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:42.720 like them. Yeah, it's funny, but like I the I 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:47.960 think in throughout the whole book, you depict something that 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:53.720 I've never really seen in any media before, not to representation, 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:55.760 but like it's it's something that I've never really seen 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.840 depicted before, which is that it's this transgender urge to 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:06.320 play up your trauma or oppression or to balloon that 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:12.680 frustration inside of you to a degree that feels manipulative 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.440 or punitive to those around you, you know what I mean. 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.119 Like it's like it's this thing where you're kind of 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.240 like you're like, oh, I am the victim, I'm the victim, 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.560 or these are my perpetrators, and in reality it's like 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:29.040 really really not that dynamic is not actually real, Like 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.400 it's it's much more nuanced than that, but it also 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:34.959 comes from a real place because when your trands like 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.479 you do, live in this constant fear of you know, 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:43.040 the turf around the corner, constant victimhood, and your marginalize, 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:47.440 you're minoritized in every interaction, and so you can't help 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:52.199 but expect that from people to an unhealthy extent, and 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:55.920 it actually can lead to being very unfair to people 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.960 who are not giving you that energy at all. Yes, exactly. 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.160 And I think like Aid and the Brother is maybe 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:06.520 the primary example of this. There's almost even a level 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.399 of it that comes from Kim who kind of I 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:12.280 mean as a reader, I immediately had these like alarm 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:16.000 bells in my head about how the Crush would speak 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:20.760 about transness or just like acceptance in general. We have 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:26.000 this like movie, this like after school special idea like 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:28.200 trans acceptance, so that SIS people can have a trans 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:34.239 acceptance that is like very grading. Okay, there's also a 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.560 kind of wait, what is even There's there's some sort 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:41.720 of slang term for like trade you have at your hometown. 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.880 What is it? It's it's just like like a town hookup. 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.359 It's like an old flame. It's kind of like basically 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:52.560 Julia has this old flame named Ben Ben who is 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.520 her brother's friend brother and one of the grooms men, 0:20:55.800 --> 0:21:00.399 who is someone who feels like comfortable and life just 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:02.760 one is one of those hookups that like just knows 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:04.919 your body, and so hooking up always feels like easy 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.160 and giggly and fun. Well, and also the special thing 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:12.280 for her is they were hooking up before she transitioned 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:17.200 right right, and so he's been this like constant in 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:20.800 her life and someone who was equally attracted to her 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:26.119 in both presentations. So that is really comfortable. Like I 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:29.320 think at one point I wrote that like hooking up 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:30.919 with him was like putting on a pair of like 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:35.439 the perfectly worn and old jeans, you know, which is 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:37.960 such a which is such a goal. When you have 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:41.720 a person who is like you're just like very comfortable 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.720 around can get off with. It's like really easy, you 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:47.520 don't have to put in too much effort. They know 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.320 you really well, they know your body. Kind of kind 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.880 of goals. It's been so long since I've had an 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:58.720 old Jean's hook up, but it's like it's almost too comfortable. 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:04.160 Like Julius still is like she she understands that if 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:07.840 she was like kind of a simpler person. She could 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:10.960 like let that be enough for her and like let 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:13.680 herself love this person. But she's not simple. She's not 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:17.359 a simple girl. She's very complicated. Sweet Home Alabama. Yeah, 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:20.199 it's sweet of Alabama. I mean everything is sweet Home 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:24.880 Alabama to me. Sweet Homo Alabama, Sweet Homo Alabama, three 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:33.000 sweet trans Sweet sweet Home Trallabama, Tranabama. What we're like 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:38.480 the what we're like the most? Okay? Actually, no, no, The 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:41.240 question I want to ask actually is what changed? Because 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:44.040 you know, I was like with you in like cafes 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:46.119 in Los Angeles when you were writing the first drafts, 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.520 in the first chapters of this book and somewhere along 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:51.760 the years long process. Because how many how many years 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:53.520 did it take you? It's been a little over three 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:56.480 years since I started writing the book, Okay, so but 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:00.800 you completed the manuscript like a year you know, yeah, 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:02.760 a year and a half ago. Okay, so it's like 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:06.320 two and a half years of writing essentially in that 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:13.960 two and a half year process. What changed? Like? What 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:15.919 was there? Is there? Like it doesn't have to be everything, 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:18.440 but like, what's something specific, whether like a plotline or 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:21.320 character or a dynamic or I know that the ending 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:23.240 changed that you don't need to share that, But is 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:25.840 there something else about when you were, like, you set 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:27.880 out to write this book and it ended up being 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:33.200 that book. Yeah, I think it started off as more 0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:39.920 of a kind of cut and dry romantic comedy and 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:45.040 it ended up being much more of a family drama 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:49.639 and coming of age novel because the romantic comedy was 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:57.280 really kind of like the like chocolatey rapper around a 0:23:57.400 --> 0:24:02.520 sort of more like bitter center that was this like 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:07.399 exploration of family and identity and growing up and love 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:12.160 and kind of like lures you into a book that 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:16.000 I hope like has some pretty deep things to say. 0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:19.120 It does about all of those things it actually really does. 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:22.320 I mean the family drama, well, the thoughtfulness of a 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:28.160 family drama is really in the book when she when 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.760 her inner monologues kind of pop off. She has like 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:35.720 a range of like inner monologues about transness, acceptance, family presentation, love, 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:38.560 et cetera throughout the book that are really really beautiful 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:42.040 in my favorite parts to read. When you were writing it, 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:45.040 you had quite a lot of references. Obviously, we've referenced 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:48.440 my best friend's wedding. I think we talked about Red, 0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:50.040 White and Robe but at one point, even though they 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:54.000 have virtually nothing to do with each other. But the 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:58.960 big one was actually Garden State a way, I don't 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:01.560 wait talk to me about that. So, I mean, Garden 0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:07.160 State is one of my favorite movies, and I revisit 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:09.600 it quite often. Actually, today's kind of a perfect day 0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:14.040 to watch it, because it's like Rainy. That was in 0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:16.359 mind a lot, because that is a movie that is 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:19.360 about coming home for a family event. In that case 0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:21.720 it's a funeral. In this case it's a wedding. But 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:26.720 the idea of forcing yourself back into a life that 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:31.800 you have outgrown and but also still being able to 0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:34.760 find the beauty in that former life and some kind 0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:38.480 of comfort in it while knowing that you have still 0:25:38.720 --> 0:25:43.000 transcended it. And also you know that the family and 0:25:43.080 --> 0:25:46.720 that is Jewish, and you know this Julia is Jewish. 0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:49.959 Her family is very culturally Jewish, and so that is 0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:54.280 a big part of the novel as well. Truly likes 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:59.159 Cafelta fish wait right yeah, which is famously disgusting. It 0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:02.719 is famously discuss and she does. There is a vomit 0:26:02.800 --> 0:26:07.040 scene early in the scene is really satisfying. I need 0:26:07.080 --> 0:26:10.080 to see that as a movie. You also reference wait, 0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:12.280 what is it for wedding? Four Weddings and a Funeral? 0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:14.040 What it was that? Again, I've never seen it, I 0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:17.520 don't think, or if I have, I don't. It's some no, 0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:20.720 not what's the movie I'm thinking about about a funeral? 0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:25.159 I'll remember later. Four Weddings and a Funeral is a 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.840 Richard Curtis movie. He made Nodding Hill and kind of 0:26:28.880 --> 0:26:34.080 all those British romantic comedies with Hugh Grant. It stars 0:26:34.160 --> 0:26:38.040 Hugh Grant and Annie McDowell and it is a movie 0:26:38.119 --> 0:26:42.640