WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 17 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.160 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.360 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:27.200 can make your own decisions. Welcome to It could happen 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:31.000 here a podcast about things falling apart, and today it's 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:33.400 it's there. There's there's a little bit of getting put 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:36.680 back together, but today's mostly them falling apart. I'm your host, 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:39.560 Christopher Wong. With me, I have Lucy who is a 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:41.519 teacher in Chicogo public schools and as part of the 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.080 Teachers Union, and today we're going to be talking about 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.280 just the absolute shit show that is being inflicted on 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.640 teachers and students in public schools. And Lucy, how how 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.360 are you? How are you doing? Um? You know, it's 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.800 it's been kind of weird, but all in all, I'm 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.600 in good spirits. I think my sisters and brothers and 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.640 CTU are in good spirits. So we're going to keep 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.560 fighting the good fight. Hell yeah. So before before we 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:15.120 fully start to get into the teachers Union and Lord 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.280 Lightfoot's foory, I want to sort of get a bit 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:19.880 of context for people who don't live in Chicago or 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.360 just don't know much about the only politics because LORI, 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:26.319 you know, if you read sort of like media accounts 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:28.320 of this, like you you, you you may be sort 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:32.200 of misled into into thinking that there's like even some 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.120 semblance of good faith going on here from Loyd Lightfoot, 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:36.840 And like, I just I just want to like do 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.640 a great like a Lord Lightfoot Greatest hits real for 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.360 a second. So Lightfoot, like immediately after she got elected, 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.000 like the like the first thing she does is she starts, 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.040 she's she literally she's like, Okay, there's too much crime 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:50.640 on the subway. We're gonna put swat teams on them. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:51.960 And so you know, you just be on the red 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.600 lane and there's a wat team and you know, because 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:56.080 again this is what happens when you put a swat 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.400 team on the fucking subway. They immediately shown a dude 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.440 in the back for nothing, literally no reason. They shot 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.240 him in the back. Um So that that was like 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.680 that was like like the first like few weeks of 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.960 lightfoot and then during the uprising, she like she she 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:13.000 turned the rich part of Chicago and she like a 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.120 medieval castle like she like like like raised all the 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:18.280 drawbridges into the middle of the city so that no 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.320 one could get into the central part of the city. 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.680 It was like awful. And then you know, then as 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:25.240 as as we sort of like there there's more and 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:31.000 more sort of bad lightfoot stuff. Most recently so Chicago 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.960 got a bunch of aid money from the federal government 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.240 and she spent two and one million dollars of it 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:42.519 paying the police, not the schools. Yeah, nope. And CPD 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.120 like these again I think I talked about this before, 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.720 but like when when the CIA was like our initial 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.720 torturing program failed, where do we go to like find 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:54.560 people who know how to torture? They brought into Chicago 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.320 Police Detective like and you know, and this is the 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:59.360 the CPD. Like there's there's two have a CPD. Right, 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:03.079 there's there's like the torture CPD. And then related to them, 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:05.320 but not necessarily identical is the part of the CPD 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.200 that's just a cartel. Like there there was there was 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:12.120 a thing in at the beginning of the tens were 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.320 like it turned out that like the almost like the 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:16.359 huge parts of the CPD were literally just a cartel. 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.560 They're running drugs. They were just like doing shakedowns for 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:23.280 and and like one person total, like you got arrested 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.480 by the FBI four and everyone else is just still there. 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.280 It's great, it's a it's a time. So that this 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.320 is this is who Lorily Lightfoot is. Um, she sucks. 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.040 Like everyone hates her like her. The people who should 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.640 be her political allies hate her. Like Chicago Chargo got 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:38.920 like a police reform bill, and the reason it was 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:40.440 like a very mild one, but the reason it happened 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.280 was just that like like the like the Alderman passed 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:46.520 it out of just pure spite because of how much 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.160 they don't like Lightfoot. So this is this is the 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:54.480 this has been my Christopher shouts that led Lightfoot instruted this. 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.600 But yeah, needless to say, Lightfoot not acting in good faith. 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:04.840 Just absolutely Yeah, an villain's incredible. No, actually that's not 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:11.680 fair because a lot of Batman villains are kind of right. Yeah, yeah, 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.040 she's she's, she's she's she's like the nightmare refusion of 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.080 like batman and a Batman villain, like what if what 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.280 do you think the worst aspects of booth and then 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:24.360 made them the mayor. It's it's a yeah, I've been 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:29.600 kind of um so, I moved here almost a year 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:35.279 ago from a smaller city, and I did not like 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.800 the mayor in my city, and he really was a 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.560 big fan of like the Lory lay Put playbook. But um, 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:45.520 I guess people weren't as politically involved there. And my 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:51.040 first week working in Chicago public schools, um, somebody mentioned 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:57.040 the mayor mentioned Laurie, and everybody kind of groaned, and 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:59.720 I was like, oh, you don't like her, you don't 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.080 like you're theyre And I mean I knew they didn't, 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.640 but I was just kind of testing the waters. And 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:06.960 this lady looks at me and goes, we hate her. 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.960 I swear, like, if you mentioned her name in this city, 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:15.280 people practically spit on the ground. It's like it's amazing 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:20.080 because like men demon Yeah, it's like like Chogo dotoriously 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.160 we all hate her. Politicians but like Lightfoot like like that, 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.160 there were you would find rama Manuel supporters right, Like 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.760 I don't know a single lord like outside of the 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:35.200 schools within the schools, everyone I know, like even even 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.440 the even the cops don't like her, Like she keeps 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.040 funneling hundreds of billions of dollars in them and they 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.240 still don't like her. It's like, it's incredible. How do 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.680 you unite the teachers union and the police union. One 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.240 something that's the only thing that they've ever agreed on 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:58.880 is fuck Lory Lightfoot. It's really incredible. So Lifefoot's latest scheme, Um, yeah, 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.080 do you want to explain? I guess go back a 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:04.720 little bit in in into the history of sort of 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:11.480 how how Chicago and Chicago Public schools have kind of 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:14.240 been responding to COVID and then how they just did 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.479 this stuff, and yeah, I guess, like, yeah, give us 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.680 a background, like what's going on right now? Well, I'm 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.400 going to preface with two things. One, I am fairly 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.120 new here, so I don't know all of the details. 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:29.680 And two, I really want to emphasize that I'm just 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.600 here talking for myself. I don't represent CTU in any way. 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.960 This is just I wanted to talk about my feelings 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.960 on things. So, um, what I do know is they 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.360 were doing remote learning and when I arrived here in March, 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:53.239 we were fully remote and UM. Then in the fourth 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:58.680 marketing period, so like around like after spring break, UM, 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.640 we moved to a hybrid at all, so we had 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.480 parents and kids could like choose if they wanted to 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.400 stay online or if they wanted to be in person. UM. 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.000 I think like sixty percent or more depending on what 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.720 school UM chose the online option. Like a lot of 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.880 parents just were not comfortable putting their kids in UM. 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.120 I know that there's been like a ton of talk 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:29.800 about UM, you know, like the most economically disadvantaged families 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.080 need the schools open, But it's kind of been the reverse. 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.480 It's been the people who have UM more means are 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:42.160 more interested in opening, and people who UH are less 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.800 well off are a little more resistant to it. I mean, 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.640 that's not the same across the board. I don't want 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.840 to generalize too much, but that's been what I've seen UM. 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.520 I think, if I had to guess it, there's a 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.160 lot of history behind that. Like UM, I mean, first 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:00.160 of all, just can your family afford an illness like this? 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:05.720 And people living in multi general generational households. And I 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.200 think something that CPS and our government in general really 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:14.160 fail to acknowledge is just how how much mistrust there 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:20.240 is between government institutions, public schools, and UM people of color, 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.440 and for good reason. You know, they have been repeatedly 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.760 just screwed over by these institutions. And I can absolutely 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:31.240 understand why they might not trust a school district that says, hey, 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.599 we'll keep your kids safe, because they weren't doing it 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:38.839 before the pandemic. UM. So we had I had like 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.200 seven kids in one of my classes, and like ten 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.440 and another and then the rest of them were online. 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.920 And I'm like sitting at a computer teaching to the 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.480 kids online and to the kids in their room. All 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:51.240 the kids in the room are on their computers too, 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.839 so that we can like still be like one cohesive class. UM. 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:57.599 It was hard, and it was like kind of like 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:01.079 mentally fatiguing, like just going back and forth like that. 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.079 But you know, we made it work. I was kind 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:05.600 of I was really proud of us, Like we made 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.360 it work. We made it happen. We stayed in contact 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:12.520 with the families and the kids constantly, UM, and like 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.160 as things moved on and as numbers started going down, 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.520 more people started warning their kids back UM. And then 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:23.280 after spring break they UM well, so like after springbreak, 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:25.960 they let people come back, and then as we moved 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:27.760 towards on our more and more kids were coming back. 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.600 Which it was the school I was in was UM 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.520 handling it very well. Our principle was really committed to 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.559 like keeping us safe. So there was UM testing, like 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.000 once a week somebody would come back and be like, yo, 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.240 go get your COVID test. UM. I don't know if 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:48.120 kids were being tested, but I know teachers were. UM. 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.760 Then summer happens. I ended up in a different school 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:56.760 in the Austin neighborhood, which is UM a lot less 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.319 advantage than the one that I had been working in, 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.720 and we open back up fully in person no remote 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.360 option like at all, like UM. The only people who 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.720 could get remote were kids that were deemed medically fragile, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.120 but they had to one submit like tons of paperwork 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.959 to prove that and to their siblings could not stay removed. 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.320 So at that point it's like, why, what's the point. 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.240 And if you were a teacher who had a medically 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.640 fragile child in the schools, your kid could be remote, 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.599 but you couldn't, So then you know, how is that 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:36.600 going to work? UM? And I found in the school 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:38.800 where I was. You know, this is the issue with 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.679 Chicago and with you know, most of the country is 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.800 some schools have more resources than others, and the school 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.199 I didn't know where to get tested. Nobody like told me. 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.360 I think there was some kind of testing program, not sure, 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:56.480 definitely nothing for students UM. I've since moved to a 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.000 high school that has more resources, but still I have 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.120 not been able to figure out where the hectic at testing. 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.400 Which has been one of the biggest things that uh 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:09.000 CTU is asking for is we want um opt out 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:13.000 testing instead of opt in testing, so you would automatically 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.360 be registered to test, and if you didn't want to test, 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:18.920 then you would have to opt out, which would end 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.160 up with far more people getting tested and make it 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.840 a lot easier because a big part of why people 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.280 are in signing up is it's really hard, like I 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.199 don't know where to find it. That everyone's like, it's 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.920 in your emails somewhere. I've searched my email. I don't know, 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.319 Like we get like emails a day like yeah, and 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:38.960 it's yeah, Like you know, I think anyone anyone who 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.199 remembers what being in a school is like those they have, 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:47.000 I mean, just the absolute worst bureaucratic stuff like it's 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.240 it's it's it's like honestly like it like my experiences 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.360 with like academia and like back in the high school, 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.280 like their tech stuff was like worse than corporate sex stuff, 0:11:56.320 --> 0:12:03.319 which is like astounding. Mm hmm, it's it's ridiculous. Do 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.600 you want to jump into here into Lightfoot's like, okay, 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.719 Lightfoot has like invented a new kind of COVID denialism, 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:13.040 which is like she she's now turned into like a 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:17.600 COVID test denihilist, like it's incredible, like she she she has. 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.559 She went on this rant about how like COVID testing 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:25.080 is a quote quasi medical procedure and how you're gonna 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:29.559 get lost, like it's it's bizarre. So this this journalist 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.800 asked her about the testing because and I don't know 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:34.679 which journalist that was, but I want to thank them 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.520 so much because they have seen a lot of the 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.160 reporters are actually out there trying to keep c t 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.400 use demands in the conversation as opposed to this like 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:47.240 whole oh lazy teachers don't want to work like off, 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:52.079 we do want to be working. Um. But so I 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.240 almost thought that she had like mixed up with this 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.800 person said and thought that they were talking about vaccines. 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.240 But even so, like stop it, stop, just stop doing that. 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.960 But who is having a reaction to a COVID test? 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:10.360 It is like literally a cute tip, like like you 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.800 just stick They don't even stick it that far up 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:14.960 your nose anymore. They just do a little in your 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.599 nostril or like a mouth smile. Yeah. Like actually, like 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.319 as someone who had like like I genuinely did have 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:23.400 a kind of bad reaction because the guy jabbed it 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.000 up really far and like I was like sneezing a 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:31.240 lot afterwards. But it's like what, oh, no, you sneezed 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.319 a little bit, Like what what does it even mean? 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:37.280 Like not like I feel like people are acting like 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:41.360 this test is like this weird new technology. It is. 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.800 It isn't like right before the pandemic, like a couple 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:46.560 of months before I had the flu and I had 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.120 exactly the same kind of test. They stuck a thing 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.720 up my nose. It was hella uncomfortable. Um it took 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:56.200 like two seconds. They stuck it on a little plastic thing. 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:58.280 I'm a bob and said, oh, looks like you have 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:04.040 the flu. Yeah, it's I don't know where this is 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:08.719 coming from. I think it's just she is not a 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:13.400 very charismatic person and she's not someone who does well 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:17.040 under pressure. And right now she's back into a corner 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.760 and she's acting out and it's been kind of wild, 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:24.280 like I've seen she's she's also throwing other people around 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.560 her under the bus. Yeah, Like she says something about 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.800 Pedro Martinez, Like she says, the teachers aren't in charge 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.280 of this. Paedro Martinez is in charge. She's the CEO. 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:37.400 And I'm like, okay, so you're being this is setting 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.520 him up to take the blame on this everything that 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.440 you tweeted about like it was. She was like, no, no, 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.120 it's actually the mayor's and not sorry, it's it's actually 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.560 the Uh, it's the principles. Responsive to the principles were 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:57.080 like no, yeah, CPS is kind of interesting. Um, this 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.160 can be really good or really bad depending on what 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:03.960 school here put. The principles really have a lot of 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.680 autonomy over their school. Um. I have now been in 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.040 two schools where that's worked out great. My principal rocks. Um. 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.880 If she ever hears this, I hope she knows that 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.480 I said that. I think she's great. Um. Also, the 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.160 principle I worked at the beginning of school year was awful. 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:27.200 Um so, but when it comes to like district wide protocols, 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:31.800 like that's district wide. And so CPS apparently had a 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.880 meeting with principles where um, I heard some rumors about 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:36.800 this too, but I also saw that letter that they 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:41.760 had posted. Um. The principles are one really frustrated because 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:47.040 CPS isn't communicating stuff with them very effectively, and so 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.120 parents will be calling like do we have school tomorrow 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.400 and they don't know, but CTU knows and it's telling 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:55.240 their members. So the teachers all know the like more 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.720 answers than the principles do, which is obviously really embarrassing 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.520 if you're supposed to be in charge. Um. And then 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:07.160 there they were told in this meeting with CPS, school's 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.720 gonna be closed on Friday. Okay, school's closed on Friday. Great, 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.960 sounds good. And then Lightfoot gets on the dang news 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.080 and tells everybody that it will be done on a 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.200 school by school basis at principles discretion, depending on if 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:24.400 they have staff. So now all of these principles, who 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:29.720 had already told their students and families that um we're 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:34.320 closing look like they're the ones who closed it as opposed, 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.400 like and that's it is rare for me to feel 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.400 bad for a school principle because that's my boss. You know, 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:44.320 I don't know, but I feel bad for them right now. 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.040 Oh my god. Like you're just trying to like make 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.520 sure that people have the information they need in a 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.080 timely manner, and this lady is up here making you 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:57.960 look like a monster. It's so unfair. Yeah, should we 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.200 talk about what's been happening and we were up to 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.560 the past sort of winter break and then the stuff 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:08.640 that's happening now because it's very grim and bad. Yeah. 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.640 So a lot of schools have been having COVID cases. Um, 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.880 there's I'm not really sure what's going on with cps 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:19.119 IS data. It kind of seems like they're not reporting 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.679 it very faithfully or accurately. Like if you look at 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.960 their tracker, they'll be cases and then suddenly they'll be gone. Um, 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.560 we never really get a hard number ever, Like will 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:33.320 be like if you have a student in your class 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.520 who has been quarantined and we all know what it is, 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.000 but they don't say it, they'll be like, um, you know, uh, 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.560 Johnny will be out for the next X amount of 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.040 time due to health reasons, please let him join via 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.320 Google Meet. And they never do. That's the other annoying 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.239 thing is like the students I think because they are 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.560 either close contact or they're sick, um you know, to them, 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.439 it's like a a break almost like they're not going 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.720 to log in randomly. Like it's it's just with I 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.200 think with kids, like once it stops being consistent and 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.080 it's like back and forth all the time, it becomes 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:15.520 very difficult for them to stay motivated because they're out 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.520 of their routine. Like I I sometimes hate it when 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:20.120 people say this, but it is kind of true. Kids 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:25.040 kind of thrive on routine. Um. So at this point 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.639 now I have like a third of my class at 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.800 any given moment will just not be there and it 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.280 will be different third of the class every you know, 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.920 it kind of like rolls through. So all of my 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:41.720 students are like different points in the curriculum. It's hard 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.000 to like know what to teach each day because I 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.560 don't know who needs what. It's hard to reach out 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:49.080 to the kids that are at home and make sure 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:50.840 that they get what they need. Because I'm so busy 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.640 trying to catch these kids up and move these kids 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.360 on and all that stuff. UM, which I have seen 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.560 some research. I'll see if I can find it. UM 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.040 after we're done that like pointed out that like remote 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.960 learning isn't the worst thing that can happen. The worst 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.960 thing that can happen is just flipping back and forth 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.919 all the time and having huge numbers of kids absent 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:17.160 from in person learning. UM. So we go on break 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.359 and obviously we have O macron like sweeping through the 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.560 country and we all knew that they were going to 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:29.520 be spikes, Like we knew that in Chicago had what 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.720 was I Illinois had some like astronomically high number of 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:36.040 new COVID cases, like breaking records all over the place. 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:42.119 UM CPS has had huge increases. Yesterday we had forty 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:50.960 three four cases in Illinois. It's that's a lot. Like yeah, 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.520 but yeah, So overbreak, like the last like the Union 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:59.760 had been trying has been trying forever to get CPS 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:04.440 two come in and agree to UM a few things. 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:09.320 So one in February we had a um an agreement 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:12.119 that schools would flip to remote if they reached a 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:17.960 certain threshold that agreement has expired and CPS has refused 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.959 to come to the bargaining table and negotiate a new one. 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.320 They're just like, no, we don't need it. We also 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.600 have been trying to get them to do the opt 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:29.440 out testing and a like surveillance testing program in school 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.280 so we can kind of just have little bits of 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:35.840 data to understand like where are these cases. CPS doesn't 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.040 want to do this. They don't want a threshold for 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.520 flipping to remote because then they would have to flip 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.120 to remote, And they don't want the surveillance testing because 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:44.760 then they would have to flip to remote, and they 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:48.880 just don't want to flip to remote. Um. So finally 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:50.840 over break, you know, it kind of came to a 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:54.600 head like they were still refusing to negotiate, like um, 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:59.359 one of the union delegates in my building said something about, um, 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.240 they've been meeting. They go to these meetings like you know, 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:04.440 like twice a week. They try to get these meetings 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:07.000 to happen, and the mayor never comes and the CEO 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.000 never comes, like they will either send lawyers or they 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:13.200 don't show up. And it's like, dude, sounded so tired 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.959 into moralized when he said that, I felt bad for him. Um, 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:21.200 but yeah, So we voted that we were going to 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:26.360 go in on Monday and Tuesday meet with our safety committees, 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:29.480 get a feel for what's going on in school, and 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:34.840 then we are going to have a vote on Tuesday 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:36.119 night as to whether or not we will do a 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:39.439 remote work action on Wednesday. And I know a lot 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:41.720 of people have been like trying to make it sound 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.320 like this was very sudden, but it absolutely wasn't. Like 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:47.480 we had a vote about whether or not we were 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.119 interested in doing this, and then we had a vote 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.040 on whether we're still interested on having a vote, and 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:56.560 then we had the vote and the delicates voted on 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:00.359 if they wanted to hold an official like should we 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.920 do an action vote? We did. Um, it was like 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:08.680 seventy voted yes. Um. There were some complaints that some 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:10.880 people didn't get their ballots, but they did wait till 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.120 they had enough yes votes to preach that to third 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:18.480 majority that we needed. So, you know, CT, you has 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:21.560 every step of the way really been making sure, Um, 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:24.159 this is actually what we want. This isn't just like 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:29.000 unilateral things like Lorie keeps throwing that work unilateral around 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:32.640 it wasn't unilateral. It was like at least two there's 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.400 the teachers in this district said I don't feel safe 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:39.320 at school. There's not enough staff in the building right 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.480 now to even teach half my kids. A third of 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:47.399 my kids are out. This isn't working. So yeah, so 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.200 we voted that we're going to stay home and work 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:53.720 remotely and then we got locked out. Yeah, which again, 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:55.840 like and I want to almost refocus on this for 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:58.560 a second because even a lot of people who were 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:01.760 sympathetic to to to the teachers unions on Twitter, you 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:03.879 see this a lot, they'll they'll be like the CTU 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:05.560 went on a strike. It's like, no, they didn't like 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:07.959 teachers and teachers are not on strike. The teachers are 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:11.320 attempting to work from home and the school district will 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:15.400 not let them. Yeah, it's it's every morning. I get 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:18.040 up at six thirty, I make my coffee, and I 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:20.840 sit down and I try to log in, and I 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:24.280 know I won't be able to, but I do it anyway. Um. Thankfully, 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:28.160 I had thought to download as much of my materials 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:31.280 as I could prior to this one to my personal device, 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:34.479 so I am still able to create lessons lands been 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:38.200 making some very cool social study slides. I'm I'm so 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:42.400 sure that my students are gonna love lots of cool 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:46.159 assignments for them to do to um. But yeah, like 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:49.440 this is a lockout, and LORI keeps starting this word 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:52.520 like illegal work stoppage around. It's not a work stoppage. 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:56.600 We are actively working. She has illegally. It is in 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.000 our contract that she can't lock us out and she 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:04.800 did so. So yeah, everyone's doing each other and saying illegal. 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:07.840 But I know which side is right. Yeah, yeah, you know. 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:10.360 I I am not an enormal perspector of the law, 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:13.520 but like this is this is both is one of 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:16.040 the rare occasions where the thing that is happening is 0:24:16.119 --> 0:24:19.680 both illegal and also just wrong. The reporting on this 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:24.440 just has not gotten the actual fundamental thing which is 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:29.040 happening here, which is a lockout, and it's enormously frustrating 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:31.760 a lot of ways because you know, and i'd say this, okay, 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:34.320 so the like local media reporting has been a lot better, 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:37.440 but any like any national coverage has just I've seen 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.960 it's just been like, yeah, it's gonna be it for 0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:43.520 part one at this interview, come back tomorrow for part two, 0:24:43.560 --> 0:24:45.480 when we will talk more about what's actually going on 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:48.639 inside the schools and you know, generally do the media's 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:51.200 s job for them, because Lord knows they're not actually 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:53.400 getting it right. You can find us that Happened Here 0:24:53.480 --> 0:24:57.960 pod on Twitter and Instagram as usual, or you cannot 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:00.879 find us. In fact, I encourage you not defined us, 0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:17.600 because good Lord, the internet is bad. Goodbye, Welcome to 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:20.439 it could Happen Here a podcast about things going badly 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:23.640 and falling apart. And today we are back with part 0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:26.560 two for interview with Lucy about how the Chicago Public 0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:29.520 school system is following apart under the relentless assault of 0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:32.719 cruelty and malice and incompetence by the Chicago Public Schools 0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:36.760 and by the Mayor, Lord Lightfoot. Enjoy. There's everything I 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:40.000 want to talk about a bit, which is when you've 0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:42.159 been back, when you've been sort of teaching in the 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:44.560 in these really like sort of what what is it 0:25:44.600 --> 0:25:46.560 actually like to teach in these classrooms? And like you know, 0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:49.720 how how safe actually is it? So, I mean I've 0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:52.560 been in a lot of different environments. When I was 0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:55.920 teaching middle schoolers, I did not feel super COVID safe. 0:25:56.119 --> 0:26:01.080 Um they are. I don't have people know this about 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:04.040 middle school age kids. They love to touch each other, 0:26:04.200 --> 0:26:07.000 especially boys. They love to like wrestle. They're was putting 0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:09.960 each other in headlocks. I am constantly having to just 0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:13.879 be like six feet six ft or three ft or 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:16.959 whatever CDC said we are now. Um, they don't put 0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:19.399 their masks on. They put their masks in their mouths 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:23.480 all the time, like in their mouths. Um. There's they're 0:26:23.600 --> 0:26:26.480 constantly finding like weird little excuses to have their mask off. 0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:28.399 Like they'll just sit there with like like there're a 0:26:28.400 --> 0:26:29.960 lot to have water bottles because they can't use the 0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:32.000 water contains. They'll just sit there with like a straw 0:26:32.080 --> 0:26:36.080 in their mouth for like extended amounts of time. And 0:26:36.080 --> 0:26:37.720 I'm like, I need you to put your mask up, 0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:39.440 take quicksips and put your mask up. And they're like 0:26:39.520 --> 0:26:43.000 I'm drinking, Like I'm going to be drinking at the 0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:47.240 end of this day, but like, I know, take a 0:26:47.320 --> 0:26:49.480 quick sip, put your mask back up. It's really really 0:26:49.520 --> 0:26:53.199 important for your safety. Um. And then I have other 0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:55.840 kids who are absolutely straight up like terrified of this 0:26:56.000 --> 0:27:00.560 because like they've lost parents, they've lost grandparents. Um, It's 0:27:00.800 --> 0:27:04.120 it's really scary. UM. At the high school level, it's 0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:06.040 been a little better. High school kids are a little 0:27:06.040 --> 0:27:08.919 more rational. Um, but I still have a few who 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:11.880 are just like, their masks are down around their chins 0:27:11.920 --> 0:27:14.600 all the time, we're under their nose, and I'm I'll 0:27:15.280 --> 0:27:17.399 like several times of class fear, like, okay, time for 0:27:17.480 --> 0:27:19.480 everybody to do a mass check. Make sure your mask 0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:23.320 is covering your nose, your mouth, your chin. Um, I'll 0:27:23.359 --> 0:27:25.000 remind them like I have a spouse at home who 0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:28.520 has an underlying condition, and like, please don't have me 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:31.440 bring home a deadly disease to him, because that would 0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:34.960 really not be great. Um. Most of them are pretty good, 0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:37.439 but still they're getting sick. Like I think we had 0:27:37.480 --> 0:27:41.359 like forty kids out of my building one Monday and 0:27:42.480 --> 0:27:44.840 like twenty eight staff members or something like that. We're 0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:49.560 out and we had one sub which is the other 0:27:49.800 --> 0:27:53.200 That's the other issue is this isn't really a question of, um, 0:27:53.880 --> 0:27:56.680 if we should go remote. It's a question of when 0:27:56.800 --> 0:27:59.399 will we be forced to go remote. And we can 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:02.680 either do that now before everybody has gotten sick and 0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:05.880 wait for this to subside and get some better mitigation 0:28:05.920 --> 0:28:09.320 strategies in place, or we can do it after everybody 0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:11.159 is sick, and then we're going to be scrambling to 0:28:11.200 --> 0:28:13.600 figure it out and also be sick at the same time. 0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:16.480 I don't really see how that makes any sense. Yeah, 0:28:16.680 --> 0:28:18.480 that's the part of this. And I've just been like 0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:22.840 I just like I don't get it, Like I just 0:28:22.880 --> 0:28:25.840 like fundamentally, there's there's like a mental break where it's 0:28:25.880 --> 0:28:31.760 like I don't understand why like Lightfoot and CPS so 0:28:31.840 --> 0:28:36.080 insistance about not going remote, Like I get that, Like, yeah, 0:28:36.240 --> 0:28:38.720 it's it's hard on kids, but it's like it's it's 0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:44.960 you know, it is the years two Like no matter 0:28:45.040 --> 0:28:47.840 what you do, it's it's hard on the kids. And 0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:53.280 it's like, yeah, I also I wonder how much of 0:28:53.360 --> 0:28:55.280 it is the remote learning that's hard on them, and 0:28:55.360 --> 0:28:58.880 how much of it is just the um everything around 0:28:58.920 --> 0:29:01.600 them is crashing and following and burning around their ears 0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:05.240 because um, the messaging that they've been getting is that 0:29:05.360 --> 0:29:08.480 they don't matter. They're not important, their safety isn't important, 0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:12.880 their families aren't important, and um some of them like 0:29:13.040 --> 0:29:15.360 want to be remote, A lot of them, a lot 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:17.040 of their parents want them to be remote. They're like, 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:20.040 you know, it's not as good, but at least I 0:29:20.160 --> 0:29:24.080 feel safe. Some of them even thrived in remote like 0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:26.360 actually did pretty well. And I really wish that it 0:29:26.480 --> 0:29:28.880 was just an option for those students who actually did 0:29:28.920 --> 0:29:30.800 well with it, that they could just like if we 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:33.160 even ended up with like a third of our students 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:37.000 choosing it, it would mitigate this so much because that's 0:29:37.000 --> 0:29:40.280 a third of the people. Not they're to spread it around. Um, 0:29:41.240 --> 0:29:45.680 So how how big? How big your class sizes are? UM? 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:49.680 Right now the building I'm in now, I have like 0:29:51.400 --> 0:29:56.880 thirty in some my It was kind of similar at 0:29:56.920 --> 0:30:00.320 the last building, Like they're in that range. I have 0:30:00.720 --> 0:30:02.640 like always have like one or two that are like 0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:06.240 the twenty year below that are usually um special education 0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:12.120 like inclusion classes where I have co teacher. UM. But yeah, 0:30:12.200 --> 0:30:14.400 it's you know, some of them are pretty crowded, and 0:30:14.480 --> 0:30:18.080 it really varies by school. Like there's definitely schools that 0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:22.600 have over thirty kids in a room, um and don't 0:30:22.680 --> 0:30:24.640 have the staff because it's just that's the other thing 0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:27.440 is like they keep talking about, you know, I keep 0:30:27.480 --> 0:30:29.840 seeing people be like fire all the teachers, and I'm like, 0:30:30.480 --> 0:30:34.360 good luck, Like, yes, is chronically understaffed. What are you 0:30:34.440 --> 0:30:39.000 gonna do? Yeah? I think again, Like this job is 0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:44.760 really hard, like it's being a teacher. Yeah, it's hard. 0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:49.200 It's exhausting, and it's very very rewarding. Like when it's good, 0:30:49.360 --> 0:30:56.000 it's great. When it's bad, it is miserable. Um so, yeah, 0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:58.880 and like what it looks like and I mean that's 0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:01.320 you know, it depends, it really depends on what school 0:31:01.320 --> 0:31:04.160 you're in. Um I think everybody can agree that it 0:31:04.320 --> 0:31:08.360 is difficult right now. Um So, we we have like 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:13.400 air purifiers going and masks on, and I cannot understand 0:31:13.520 --> 0:31:14.880 what my kids are saying a lot of the time, 0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:18.160 Like I do not know, and they speak so quietly. Yeah, 0:31:18.680 --> 0:31:21.000 like I need you to shout it, say it like 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:25.400 you mean whatever it is. So but you know, that's 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:30.440 been challenging and frustrating and exhausting. But um the worst 0:31:30.520 --> 0:31:32.560 thing ever is finding out that one of my students 0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:35.280 is sick. Like I hate when they're I hate it 0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:37.400 when they hurt. Like whenever that one of them is hurting, 0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:40.680 I feel bad. And knowing that their home sick is 0:31:41.000 --> 0:31:44.000 it's it's really upsetting and just it's you know, it's 0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:47.400 distressing for teachers to know that their kids are struggling 0:31:47.440 --> 0:31:49.800 in a way like that. So that's you know, we 0:31:49.880 --> 0:31:53.520 want them to be safe, you know, like these kids, 0:31:53.600 --> 0:31:55.600 it's like and this is this is true of the 0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:58.400 staff too, when you're when you're getting sick, it's like, yeah, 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:00.720 like some of these people will be okay, but enormous 0:32:00.760 --> 0:32:02.280 numbers of people are like so man, these people are 0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:03.320 gonna die. So some of these people, a lot of 0:32:03.320 --> 0:32:06.040 these people are going to get disabled. Um, yeah, I 0:32:06.080 --> 0:32:08.880 mean the long term, long terffects is really bad. And 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:14.239 you know, one off, if people remember we we did 0:32:14.280 --> 0:32:16.440 an episode with on our Friends who's a nurse and like, yeah, 0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:18.720 like he he had long COVID. His long COVID was 0:32:18.840 --> 0:32:22.480 like he he couldn't do more than like like getting 0:32:22.480 --> 0:32:24.400 out of bed or like like walking across the room, 0:32:24.440 --> 0:32:27.200 which just put him in bed all day. Because there's 0:32:27.280 --> 0:32:29.240 you know, there's there's an enormous range of sort of 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:34.600 like of of long COVID side effects and yeah, it's 0:32:34.640 --> 0:32:38.800 like it's it's it's like CPS is just child cope 0:32:38.840 --> 0:32:43.160 of schools. It's just like they're getting people killed. Yeah, 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:46.440 it's and it's you know that's like the question like 0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:49.200 they keep talking about percentages and I'm like, these are 0:32:49.360 --> 0:32:52.040 human beings. Every one of those numbers is a human. 0:32:52.640 --> 0:32:55.600 So when you say like only you know, point whatever 0:32:55.720 --> 0:33:00.400 percent are going to be long term affected, like, okay, 0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:04.880 those are people. Can we stop like dehumanizing them with 0:33:05.000 --> 0:33:10.320 these later like data points and um as for like 0:33:10.440 --> 0:33:14.240 the issue with like how like kids are less affected 0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:16.960 by or whatever, Like the fact is like the more 0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:20.760 we allow this to spread around, the more variants we're 0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:23.680 going to see. And we don't know that the next 0:33:23.760 --> 0:33:26.120 variant isn't going to be the one that is really 0:33:26.560 --> 0:33:30.680 significantly harmful to children. And we are basically turning our 0:33:30.680 --> 0:33:34.360 schools into these peatree dishes where this thing can mutate 0:33:34.640 --> 0:33:38.640 and become stronger. And now we have vaccinated people who 0:33:38.680 --> 0:33:41.640 are in that mix, and it's becoming resistant to the vaccine. 0:33:42.080 --> 0:33:46.280 So you know, I'm a social studie teacher, not a 0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:49.960 science teacher, but this seems like a bad move to make. Yeah, yeah, 0:33:50.480 --> 0:33:54.440 it's I don't know, it's it's just sort of heartbreaking 0:33:54.520 --> 0:33:57.520 a lot of ways. I mean, it's just like they've 0:33:57.560 --> 0:34:00.960 just decided that you And again, like I don't I 0:34:00.960 --> 0:34:03.040 don't know why Lightfoot's doing this, Like maybe it's just 0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:05.120 like she wants to share up her base thing because 0:34:05.280 --> 0:34:07.880 she's trying to build a base among like the just 0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:13.040 like rich, weird noorsiders or something. But like it's she's 0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:16.200 a small business person. That's always when people are the 0:34:16.239 --> 0:34:20.479 small business owners who don't want to close schools because 0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:25.840 then you know, their workers won't come in, and you know, 0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:28.640 I want to feel sorry for them, but I know, 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:33.520 I don't know, like like you, because there's also a 0:34:33.560 --> 0:34:35.640 lot of small business owners who have been very supportive 0:34:35.680 --> 0:34:38.680 of us. We had uh there's like a taco place 0:34:38.840 --> 0:34:42.239 offering free burritos to us, Like I really appreciate that. 0:34:42.400 --> 0:34:46.240 Like there's the community who understand that, like the lives 0:34:46.320 --> 0:34:49.000 of our children are so much more important than you 0:34:49.160 --> 0:34:53.040 missing two weeks of profit, Like you will figure that out. 0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:56.279 And if you want to bail out businesses, um, we 0:34:56.360 --> 0:34:58.520 can figure that out. But right now. And also like 0:34:59.360 --> 0:35:03.680 is is saying like we have we aren't we refused 0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:08.680 to do anything that might be inconvenient for business owners, 0:35:09.440 --> 0:35:12.040 Like what is that? Yeah, and it's like it's like yeah, 0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:14.040 so you know. And also yeah, but like business owners 0:35:14.080 --> 0:35:15.880 did get bailed out, like they got they got they 0:35:15.920 --> 0:35:17.960 got zero presented loans. Most of those loans got written 0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:20.319 off and meanwhile, yeah, it's like, well, okay, what did 0:35:20.360 --> 0:35:21.799 life to do with the COVID buddy? She she gave 0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:24.319 it to the cops. And oh hey, guess guess who's 0:35:24.360 --> 0:35:26.680 also just a rapperance better of COVID. Oh yeah it's 0:35:26.719 --> 0:35:32.760 the cops. Yeah, resisted vaccines the most, the cops. I mean, actually, 0:35:32.760 --> 0:35:35.120 there there there There is one funny thing which I'm 0:35:35.120 --> 0:35:37.120 actually very excited about, which is that the cops are 0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:40.160 doing they're having their first so they have a new 0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:43.719 class graduating. But for the police academies, which is really bad, 0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:46.400 and there's a whole well, one of one of the 0:35:46.600 --> 0:35:48.200 like life Foot's things was that there there was a 0:35:48.280 --> 0:35:51.560 huge campaign against building more police academies because you know, 0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:54.160 everyone hates child to police apart, right, they're awful. And 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:56.560 if you have a hundred billion dollars for a new 0:35:56.600 --> 0:35:59.200 police academy, why or a hundred million or whatever it was, 0:35:59.280 --> 0:36:03.719 why can't you you put some better ventilation into schools? Yeah, 0:36:03.719 --> 0:36:05.840 well it's gonna Yeah, it's because because because like the 0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:10.120 CPD are like basically feudal lords. They have nights, they 0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:12.600 go out, they can shoot you, like they rob you. 0:36:13.000 --> 0:36:16.279 They just like any any any large number of like 0:36:16.360 --> 0:36:18.840 black kids on the streets. Like if you just have 0:36:18.960 --> 0:36:21.680 like fifteen kids walking around, like eight quad cars will 0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:24.200 show up. And you know that there was in Lightfoot 0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:25.640 was like no no, not her, like one of her 0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:27.080 campaign thing big and pain things like no, no, We're 0:36:27.080 --> 0:36:29.200 gonna make sure we build these academies. And but so 0:36:29.320 --> 0:36:31.719 they're they're having their first like rounded that they've been 0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:35.400 having trouble recruiting because the cod is good. Yeah, and 0:36:35.520 --> 0:36:38.040 and they're they're about to have their first police Academy 0:36:38.080 --> 0:36:40.920 exam and it's gonna be in person, and I am 0:36:41.360 --> 0:36:43.080 this is the only what are the few? Is this 0:36:43.360 --> 0:36:45.600 jaire Bosonaro where it's like I am rooting for the 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:49.240 virus here, like please God save us from these cops. 0:36:49.800 --> 0:36:52.279 But yeah, I mean it's it's but they're just at 0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:56.520 home and spread it around. Yeah. Yeah, that's a sad thing. 0:36:56.920 --> 0:37:02.160 It's it's just it's grotesque. And yeah, it's been this 0:37:02.280 --> 0:37:05.000 thing where I'm like watching like the school system is 0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:08.040 just throwing their hands up, been saying we don't care, 0:37:08.480 --> 0:37:12.680 We're done. The health system, the health care system is 0:37:13.000 --> 0:37:17.440 like crashing and burning all around us. Nurses are quitting 0:37:18.400 --> 0:37:22.200 hospitals are like, we don't have room for more patients, Like, 0:37:22.960 --> 0:37:25.759 did you have a cancer treatment schedule? Sorry? Did you 0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:28.200 have a surgery scheduled? Sorry? I just saw somebody on 0:37:28.239 --> 0:37:32.440 Twitter saying she um has a brain tumor and she's 0:37:32.480 --> 0:37:34.359 supposed to have a surgery for it and she can't 0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:37.399 now because of COVID because they have no beds. There 0:37:37.440 --> 0:37:40.160 aren't any. And you're telling me that the right move 0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:43.000 right now is to keep the schools open, which has 0:37:43.239 --> 0:37:49.000 always been in every every pandemic that we've ever had. 0:37:49.400 --> 0:37:53.719 Schools and hospitals and prisons are like the place where 0:37:54.520 --> 0:37:57.440 the whatever diseases spreads. And I know we've been claiming 0:37:57.600 --> 0:38:00.239 that like there's not been spread in schools, but we've 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:02.320 now seen the data that there, in fact is a 0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:05.600 huge amount. Which I've been like screaming about this since 0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:10.520 we started that their contact tracing models are they're absurd. 0:38:10.600 --> 0:38:15.520 They are like kafka esque, Like basically, um, so we 0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:19.560 start from the assumption that everybody is six ft apart 0:38:19.600 --> 0:38:24.000 and wearing their mask at all times, which it's not. 0:38:24.200 --> 0:38:27.040 It's not even it's not even physically possible in a 0:38:27.080 --> 0:38:29.600 lot of classrooms for that to be happening, and then too, 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:33.480 we start with the assumption that those things work, and 0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:36.919 so you'll get a call from a contact racer that's like, hey, 0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:43.640 um on, you know, like last Tuesday, Tuesday of last week, 0:38:44.040 --> 0:38:46.879 were you within six ft of any of your eighth 0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:49.440 graders for more than fifteen minutes? Funck if I know 0:38:50.400 --> 0:38:52.440 Tuesday of last week, was I near an eighth grader 0:38:52.480 --> 0:38:55.160 for fifteen minutes? I don't know. I have no idea 0:38:55.680 --> 0:38:59.000 even if, like, even if I did, know, what difference 0:38:59.040 --> 0:39:02.080 does it make. It is an aerosolized virus. It is 0:39:02.239 --> 0:39:04.960 in the air, and the more you sit in classrooms, 0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:08.680 the more it accumulates. Like we have seen like studies 0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:12.319 about um this, We've seen studies about how CEO two 0:39:12.920 --> 0:39:16.120 accumulates in the air when there's crowds. We know that 0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:19.480 stuff accumulates like that in classrooms very very quickly. And 0:39:19.600 --> 0:39:22.439 you're gonna tell me that as long as I wasn't 0:39:22.520 --> 0:39:26.440 within fifteen or within six ft for more than fifteen 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:31.440 continuous minutes, not even like um, not even fifteen minutes 0:39:31.520 --> 0:39:34.560 like added up throughout the day, just fifteen minutes continuously, 0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:37.080 I'm not going to get a virus. But you're shipping 0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:39.799 me like that makes no sense. And so then if 0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:42.279 and if and if you're answer to those questions are no, 0:39:43.680 --> 0:39:47.520 because whatever you were following the rules, then they're like, Okay, 0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:50.600 you got COVID somewhere else. It wasn't at school. Yeah 0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:53.719 no it does. It's nonsense. It's like I go to 0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:55.600 work and I go home. I don't do anything else, 0:39:55.640 --> 0:39:58.040 so I don't know where else is coming from, like yeah, 0:39:58.440 --> 0:40:02.279 like and also just wanted a brief digression about like okay, 0:40:02.320 --> 0:40:04.360 so like like I like I went to like a 0:40:04.600 --> 0:40:06.719 like a pretty good like like a pretty well like 0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:12.080 a very well funded like a Chicago area school, and like, okay, 0:40:12.120 --> 0:40:15.399 those places, those places ventilation sucks. Like again, like again, 0:40:15.480 --> 0:40:17.320 I went to a very well funded school. Like we 0:40:17.400 --> 0:40:19.440 had a we had drowned dead rats falling out of 0:40:19.480 --> 0:40:25.160 the ceiling like it was. It was incredibly my my 0:40:25.400 --> 0:40:28.120 my great high school memories with my principle, just like 0:40:28.719 --> 0:40:32.360 running full tilt pushing a trash can because dead drownd 0:40:32.480 --> 0:40:38.280 friend up. See my god lord, my school was wild. 0:40:38.400 --> 0:40:41.560 We had how bad it was like a kind of 0:40:41.560 --> 0:40:43.480 a chemistry teacher let a kid set off a smoke 0:40:43.560 --> 0:40:46.080 bomb like that. They made like in a classroom, but 0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:48.759 it didn't work, so it just like actually blew up 0:40:49.440 --> 0:40:53.280 like it was a time but like like like learning, Okay, 0:40:54.239 --> 0:40:56.600 I got to light the school on fire, but like 0:40:56.760 --> 0:40:58.759 like this is a this is like yeah, like like 0:40:58.840 --> 0:41:02.879 these schools are not like they're not the environments Yeah 0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:04.840 I worked in at the beginning of the year was 0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:07.200 a hundred years old. It was built in nineteen twenty 0:41:07.560 --> 0:41:10.360 and there was always this like sewage smell around the 0:41:10.400 --> 0:41:13.719 background as the pipes were messed up. It was weird, 0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:15.880 like and they couldn't fix it. I think it was 0:41:16.280 --> 0:41:18.279 it was the second or third time by building lived 0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:20.279 on fire. Like we there was a there was a 0:41:20.320 --> 0:41:22.120 whole thing in the building that was made of asbestos 0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:24.480 and they just had left it there because it was 0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:28.520 like it wasn't exposed. Yeah, abestos over like I get 0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:31.240 like I I went to like a good, well funded 0:41:31.320 --> 0:41:36.040 one of these schools, right Like it's I think there's 0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:37.759 there's like there's there's these two there's two things. I 0:41:37.800 --> 0:41:41.040 think it is. Interestingly, there's when you like talk to 0:41:41.160 --> 0:41:44.200 like the people who want the schools to open back up, right, 0:41:44.239 --> 0:41:46.040 they'll they're also talking about like oh no, it's fun. 0:41:46.080 --> 0:41:50.279 Everyone wears masks, everyone's vaccinated, everyone succeeds Like no, no, 0:41:50.440 --> 0:41:52.000 they're not like this. This is how it works in 0:41:52.080 --> 0:41:55.160 this like imaginary play world you've like created. Have you 0:41:55.280 --> 0:41:59.320 ever met a child? Like have you met your own children? 0:41:59.560 --> 0:42:01.719 Like oh and that's the best is like, well, I've 0:42:01.719 --> 0:42:03.719 been having my kids wearing masks like you have your 0:42:03.800 --> 0:42:08.000 full of ship. Okay, because I hold that kid to 0:42:08.120 --> 0:42:11.239 put their masks on like fifteen times yesterday and I 0:42:11.400 --> 0:42:14.359 love them beautiful face. I hope they get to show 0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:18.759 it off someday, but right now, cooped up, please, I'm 0:42:18.800 --> 0:42:21.600 begging you. And I'm like, I'm not like that teacher 0:42:21.680 --> 0:42:24.200 who's really authoritarian, Like I've never been good at like 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:27.239 writing kids up and getting on them for stuff because 0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:29.719 it's just like I don't know, I hate doing that. 0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:33.279 I hate being that person. So it's been like really, 0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:35.880 it's like a struggle. It's like am I going to 0:42:36.000 --> 0:42:40.040 be the person who nags them every five seconds? Or 0:42:40.120 --> 0:42:43.000 am I gonna be um the teacher that they like 0:42:43.120 --> 0:42:47.400 and want to learn from? Like you know, this isn't sustainable. 0:42:49.440 --> 0:42:51.799 So but you're asking like the attitudes of people who 0:42:52.120 --> 0:42:55.719 want to open schools back up, and I it's it's 0:42:55.840 --> 0:43:00.200 hard because I have talked to parents who are worth read, 0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:03.759 but they are also very upset because they see that 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:08.080 their kids are struggling. And I really do feel for 0:43:08.120 --> 0:43:09.880 them on that, like I really really do. It is 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:13.680 hard to see a kid struggle, but it is harder, 0:43:13.880 --> 0:43:17.319 I think, to see a kid sick. That is really hard. 0:43:17.960 --> 0:43:20.880 And it's just this, like there are ways that we 0:43:20.960 --> 0:43:24.480 can overcome the difficulties of remote learning, Like we we 0:43:25.080 --> 0:43:28.879 can find ways to give them the emotional support, um, 0:43:29.160 --> 0:43:33.080 we can find better socializing outlets, but I don't know 0:43:33.280 --> 0:43:38.759 how we fix like you've become very ill and your 0:43:39.280 --> 0:43:41.040 body isn't going to recover in the way that you 0:43:41.120 --> 0:43:43.279 thought it would, Like I don't. I can't fix that. 0:43:44.400 --> 0:43:46.880 So's something I've heard from other teachers that like the 0:43:46.960 --> 0:43:50.040 preparing remote learning stuff like is harder and takes more 0:43:50.120 --> 0:43:54.880 work than Yeah, it does. It's it's really rough. I 0:43:54.960 --> 0:43:56.600 don't like doing it. I want to be in the 0:43:56.680 --> 0:43:59.800 classroom but and I just I just want to like 0:44:00.239 --> 0:44:02.560 once again, yell at all of the people who are 0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:05.360 like the teachers are lazy and it's like no, people 0:44:05.680 --> 0:44:09.960 like they're like yeah, like you're you are advocating to 0:44:10.440 --> 0:44:13.680 do more work because that's that's the thing that will 0:44:13.760 --> 0:44:16.920 keep the kids safe. And it's yeah, I think a 0:44:17.000 --> 0:44:19.520 lot of people don't understand like the behind the scenes 0:44:19.640 --> 0:44:22.840 how the sausage gets made of a classroom. But I 0:44:22.920 --> 0:44:24.320 think a lot of people have this idea that like 0:44:24.480 --> 0:44:28.239 we are given curriculum and plans and materials pre made. 0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:32.360 And sometimes that's true. It depends on your subject. Mine 0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:34.880 is social size is not a subject where that happens 0:44:34.960 --> 0:44:37.120 very much, which is part of why I like it 0:44:37.320 --> 0:44:41.440 because I like to be creative. UM. So like my 0:44:41.640 --> 0:44:45.960 week looks like UM, there are a lot of hours 0:44:46.480 --> 0:44:50.040 after school where I am sitting down, I'm looking at 0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:52.840 the standards that I need to teach, the topics that 0:44:52.920 --> 0:44:56.160 I need to teach, and I'm researching it and learning 0:44:56.239 --> 0:44:59.800 it and finding a way to teach that to kids 0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:04.640 who don't have the same like baseline knowledge that I have. UM, 0:45:04.960 --> 0:45:08.480 And then I'm creating like an activity for them. I'm 0:45:08.560 --> 0:45:13.480 creating UM, You're I'm finding like material sources and like 0:45:13.680 --> 0:45:15.680 videos and stuff that they can watch that are going 0:45:15.719 --> 0:45:18.680 to help them, or things to read. I'm modifying those 0:45:18.760 --> 0:45:22.680 things for the kids who have UM. You know, learning differences. 0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:25.799 I'm translating some of those things into Spanish for kids 0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:27.960 who don't really read very well in English yet. So 0:45:28.320 --> 0:45:30.360 like that's a ton of work on its own. And 0:45:30.480 --> 0:45:32.160 then when we switch to remote, we have to figure 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:34.640 out how to do all of that on Google Classroom, 0:45:35.360 --> 0:45:38.560 where now it has to all be typed like or 0:45:39.560 --> 0:45:41.719 you know, like how do I figure like how do 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:46.120 I do a group project online? How do I let 0:45:46.200 --> 0:45:49.120 them do something creative that isn't just sitting here answering 0:45:49.280 --> 0:45:53.960 questions on a worksheet. That's hard, and We've been really 0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:55.680 good at it, and I've found all kinds of really 0:45:55.719 --> 0:45:59.040 cool tools to do that with. But it's so much work, 0:45:59.800 --> 0:46:01.680 and it's work that I'm willing to do because I 0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:05.200 care about my job. I enjoy my work. I love 0:46:05.280 --> 0:46:08.680 my students, but um, you know, and I want them 0:46:08.680 --> 0:46:10.080 to be safe. But like, you know, it is a 0:46:10.200 --> 0:46:12.759 ton of work. I'm not just sitting here eating bond 0:46:12.800 --> 0:46:16.480 bonds all day or drinking cocktails. Yeah, And I think 0:46:16.560 --> 0:46:20.960 there's there's like a larger sort of like like Americans 0:46:21.239 --> 0:46:24.080 have this like the sexist sort of like hatred of 0:46:24.360 --> 0:46:27.640 like or in disrespect to people who do both care 0:46:27.760 --> 0:46:32.399 work and a lot of creative work both and then 0:46:32.560 --> 0:46:35.800 simultaneously there's this sort of like you know, the the 0:46:35.960 --> 0:46:37.800 there's there's there's a resentment to people who get to 0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:41.800 actually do something that helps people. And you know, I 0:46:41.840 --> 0:46:45.080 think right now we're seeing just the most toxic fusion 0:46:45.120 --> 0:46:48.400 of that, which is that like, yeah, I know, like 0:46:48.640 --> 0:46:51.520 these like you know, and instead of like you know, 0:46:51.719 --> 0:46:55.160 recognizing the enormous amount of work that that's going into 0:46:55.239 --> 0:46:57.440 all like this going into into teaching, like the amount 0:46:57.480 --> 0:46:59.920 of sort of like the care and love that's going 0:47:00.000 --> 0:47:01.640 into the creativity it's going into it, and just like 0:47:03.400 --> 0:47:06.799 the people people's willing, like you're willing listen to make 0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:09.439 like enormous sacrifices to try to keep these kids safe. 0:47:09.440 --> 0:47:11.400 They're just like no, Like the teachers are lazy, they 0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:14.400 don't want to work, they're going on strike, like and 0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:16.480 it's you know, and and and it's like they're doing 0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:18.680 this and it's like yeah, like you you were like 0:47:18.719 --> 0:47:23.279 they're killing their own kids. It's just like it's it's 0:47:23.320 --> 0:47:26.440 this weird fusion of like we we I've had. The 0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:31.800 spaces is like a combination of like feminized care labor, 0:47:31.960 --> 0:47:39.960 emotional labor, and UM, that's sort of like like intelligence. Yeah, 0:47:40.200 --> 0:47:45.719 like professional, UM, white collar intellectual kind of thing. And 0:47:45.840 --> 0:47:51.719 then also we're teaching a UM more introductory level of 0:47:51.800 --> 0:47:54.960 our subjects, so we're seeing as like discount intellectuals who 0:47:55.080 --> 0:47:58.480 are also women who do care work. So it's it's 0:47:58.560 --> 0:48:00.879 very frustrating, and I don't think a lot of people 0:48:01.000 --> 0:48:05.640 understand the amount of UM skill and expertise it takes 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:07.400 to be a teacher and be effective at it. Like 0:48:07.520 --> 0:48:10.080 it's not just I need to know social studies to 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:12.120 the level that a twelfth grader would know it. It's 0:48:12.520 --> 0:48:15.320 I need to know social studies beyond that level and 0:48:15.480 --> 0:48:17.920 know how to communicate it to a high school student. 0:48:18.320 --> 0:48:19.799 And also I need to know a lot of stuff 0:48:19.800 --> 0:48:24.839 about like child development. It's it's really it's something and UM, 0:48:25.480 --> 0:48:28.120 I you know, I find that to be fun and challenging, 0:48:28.200 --> 0:48:32.840 but I wish it was respected and you know, and 0:48:32.960 --> 0:48:35.520 then you're talking about like people are sacrificing their own kids. 0:48:35.760 --> 0:48:38.600 I want to point out a lot like I think 0:48:38.640 --> 0:48:42.160 there's a racial component to this. UM. The people who 0:48:42.239 --> 0:48:47.560 are in wealthier schools and who are mostly white know 0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:49.799 that their kids are gonna be fine, like they are 0:48:49.960 --> 0:48:53.200 in schools that actually do have the resources to distance, 0:48:53.280 --> 0:48:57.759 that have air filters, that have good ventilation. Um, they're vaccinated, 0:48:58.239 --> 0:49:01.120 their kids are probably going to be fine. The kids 0:49:01.200 --> 0:49:05.400 that aren't going to be fine are lowing, um, students 0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:08.200 of color. And it has always been this way. It's 0:49:08.200 --> 0:49:11.719 always been this way with schools, Like when schools were desegregated, 0:49:11.880 --> 0:49:16.480 we started with private school vouchers, and we started with 0:49:16.880 --> 0:49:21.600 all of these like uh, state testing requirements and withholding 0:49:21.680 --> 0:49:24.560 funding from schools that don't meet those, you know, test 0:49:24.600 --> 0:49:29.120 standards and all of these like, um, this extra oversight 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:33.680 on teachers like that stuff all comes back to white 0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:36.399 people don't want to have to worry about black people's kids. 0:49:36.800 --> 0:49:39.680 That's it. And you know, they will move their kids 0:49:39.719 --> 0:49:42.520 out to the north side or the suburbs or whatever. 0:49:42.920 --> 0:49:45.440 Notice that all of those suburbs schools have flipped remote. 0:49:45.600 --> 0:49:47.880 Noticed that Lorry Lightfoot's kids are in a charter school 0:49:47.880 --> 0:49:52.120 that is not remote. Well, and more than Lightfoot Lightfoot Lightfoot, 0:49:53.040 --> 0:49:56.719 Lightfoot will not put herself in a room with the 0:49:56.880 --> 0:49:59.360 with the same number of people like a teacher should 0:49:59.360 --> 0:50:00.959 go to every day. You won't. And she was telling 0:50:01.000 --> 0:50:03.120 people at the press conferences they had to wear their masks, 0:50:03.320 --> 0:50:05.320 and then she wasn't wearing hers, which was very challenge 0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:08.880 to me. Like that's what they like when when you 0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:11.520 when you get to the politician level, they know it's dangerous, 0:50:11.920 --> 0:50:15.440 Like they know they they you can tell what they 0:50:15.520 --> 0:50:18.200 do right now. Yeah, like they won't do it, but 0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:20.719 like no, no, they're they're perfectly willing to just send 0:50:20.840 --> 0:50:22.440 to send you off the die, to send all these 0:50:22.520 --> 0:50:26.520 kids off to die. And it's just yeah, sometimes I 0:50:26.600 --> 0:50:29.480 feel I get kind of dumer and I wonder if 0:50:29.600 --> 0:50:33.120 like if that's not the plan, Like is it that? 0:50:33.840 --> 0:50:35.840 I mean, I don't really believe that. I think what 0:50:36.000 --> 0:50:39.279 it really is is this just like malicious neglect. Like 0:50:40.800 --> 0:50:44.239 if you're somebody who's a policymaker and someone comes to 0:50:44.320 --> 0:50:46.240 you and it's like, I need you to care about 0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:49.680 this population here that doesn't have a lot of money 0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:53.799 and needs a lot of things, and you, the policymaker, 0:50:53.840 --> 0:50:55.520 are going to be like, oh, it sounds like so 0:50:55.640 --> 0:50:58.799 much work. And then somebody else is going to come 0:50:58.840 --> 0:51:01.200 to you and be like I need these things over here, 0:51:01.239 --> 0:51:02.719 and I do have a lot of money, and I 0:51:02.840 --> 0:51:04.360 do have a lot of influence, and I'm gonna make 0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:06.200 your life difficult if you don't do what I want, 0:51:06.960 --> 0:51:08.920 they're gonna do with that other side once. And what 0:51:09.000 --> 0:51:11.200 the other side once right now is for kids to 0:51:11.239 --> 0:51:13.440 get back into school so they can have free daycares, 0:51:13.560 --> 0:51:15.920 the parents can go to work, and that's and that's it. 0:51:16.080 --> 0:51:18.719 And teachers are standing here being like, I didn't get 0:51:18.840 --> 0:51:22.080 a master's degree and do you know countless hours of 0:51:22.120 --> 0:51:26.320 professional development to be a babysitter, you know, and no, 0:51:26.600 --> 0:51:28.560 not to knock babysitters. I was in nanny for a 0:51:28.600 --> 0:51:32.919 long time. That is hard work. But um, I didn't 0:51:32.960 --> 0:51:34.759 get a master's degree to be a babysitter. I got 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:37.480 a master's degree to be a teacher. And I'm in 0:51:37.520 --> 0:51:40.440 an environment right now where I can't really teach effectively 0:51:40.760 --> 0:51:43.640 and all I'm doing is babysitting. They want to wear 0:51:43.680 --> 0:51:45.840 house kids. That is what we're doing with the schools. 0:51:46.120 --> 0:51:49.360 That's why they want them open. And it's you know, 0:51:49.480 --> 0:51:52.080 it's it's hard not to feel like they just started 0:51:52.120 --> 0:51:55.000 doing it because they hate us, even though I know 0:51:55.120 --> 0:51:57.640 it's not. It's just it does feel that way. I 0:51:57.719 --> 0:52:01.600 will like, I will say that, like you're so if 0:52:01.640 --> 0:52:04.879 you become elected as the mayor of Chicago, Like your 0:52:05.040 --> 0:52:08.120 job is to break the teachers union. Like that's that's like, 0:52:08.239 --> 0:52:10.640 that's that's that's that's like the role you're auditioning for. 0:52:10.760 --> 0:52:12.400 And they have been they have been trying to do 0:52:12.560 --> 0:52:15.480 this for literally my entire lifetime. They've been trying to 0:52:15.480 --> 0:52:18.640 do this, like since before I was born. Like that's 0:52:19.440 --> 0:52:22.520 and honestly, like, wouldn't surprise me if this was another 0:52:22.600 --> 0:52:24.560 part of this was just them once again trying to 0:52:24.600 --> 0:52:27.000 break the teacher's union. Oh absolutely, like and if and 0:52:27.040 --> 0:52:29.360 not even just that like yeah, you know, like not 0:52:29.480 --> 0:52:30.800 just on the sort of political level, like on the 0:52:30.880 --> 0:52:34.279 incredible cynical level, we'll just kill them. Well, it's it's 0:52:34.320 --> 0:52:37.520 a labor thing. Like it's not just a Chicago teachers 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:39.680 union or even a teacher's union thing. It is a 0:52:39.840 --> 0:52:45.080 labor movement across the board thing that. Um, the largest, 0:52:45.239 --> 0:52:47.759 I think the largest unionized workforce in the country is 0:52:47.800 --> 0:52:53.160 teachers and we on top of that are a union 0:52:53.200 --> 0:52:55.359 of workers who have the power to absolutely bring our 0:52:55.360 --> 0:52:57.520 economy to a grinding hole if we want to. We 0:52:57.600 --> 0:53:00.040 could all go on straight right now and no, but 0:53:00.080 --> 0:53:03.200 he's going to do ship until we go back to work. Um. 0:53:03.440 --> 0:53:05.360 They could if they, you know, they could try to 0:53:05.400 --> 0:53:08.279 like replace us with like people who are basically like 0:53:08.360 --> 0:53:11.719 hall monitors and give kids like canned curriculums, but they 0:53:11.760 --> 0:53:14.480 wouldn't really be learning very well, and parents wouldn't be 0:53:14.480 --> 0:53:16.800 happy with it, and they wouldn't be entering the workforce 0:53:16.840 --> 0:53:19.480 with the skills. They need to make money for the economy, 0:53:19.960 --> 0:53:24.560 to you know, make money for the almighty Tao. So um. 0:53:25.640 --> 0:53:28.080 The it has been a project for decades in this 0:53:28.160 --> 0:53:30.960 country to try to break teachers unions because teacher unions 0:53:31.239 --> 0:53:36.080 occupy this space where they allow other unions to happen. Um. 0:53:36.760 --> 0:53:40.319 We have, you know, enough influence on politicians that they 0:53:40.360 --> 0:53:43.040 can't just disband the labor board and make unions illegal, 0:53:43.400 --> 0:53:46.799 which they would absolutely fucking love to do. And if 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:49.240 they could just get rid of these damn teachers unions, 0:53:49.280 --> 0:53:52.279 maybe they could do it. Um. So you know, and 0:53:52.600 --> 0:53:55.279 that's what you see with the education reform movement where 0:53:55.320 --> 0:53:58.960 you have all these people advocating for bouchers and charter schools, 0:53:59.560 --> 0:54:06.759 and it's you know, they want to break labor and 0:54:07.280 --> 0:54:09.799 I see a lot of I mean, now I'm gonna 0:54:10.080 --> 0:54:12.839 I'm gonna scold some of my comrades. But I see 0:54:12.840 --> 0:54:16.200 a lot of leftists who are really skeptical of teachers 0:54:16.280 --> 0:54:18.759 and don't want to support the teachers union. And I 0:54:19.280 --> 0:54:21.359 get it, like there are a lot of teachers who 0:54:21.360 --> 0:54:23.040 really suck, and there's a lot of teachers who are 0:54:23.160 --> 0:54:25.680 not radical, like most teachers are not radical, a lot 0:54:25.719 --> 0:54:28.719 of them are pretty conservative. But at the same time, 0:54:29.320 --> 0:54:35.840 if you were to abolish schools immediately right now and 0:54:36.800 --> 0:54:39.520 break up the teachers unions and all that, you're gonna 0:54:39.520 --> 0:54:42.960 get end up with. Rich people go to school, poor 0:54:43.080 --> 0:54:45.680 people don't. If your poor your kid goes to work, 0:54:46.160 --> 0:54:48.600 probably won't be in a coal mine, but you know, 0:54:48.840 --> 0:54:53.840 they'll probably be like soldering my computer chips or coding 0:54:53.960 --> 0:54:57.120 or something for like pennies an hour. And I don't 0:54:57.200 --> 0:54:59.520 want that world. And if you actually care about labor, 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:03.320 then you need to support teachers unions because, um, the 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:06.600 public schools are central to all these communities that we 0:55:06.680 --> 0:55:10.839 want to be reaching, and the unions are the only 0:55:10.920 --> 0:55:15.440 thing making sure that they stay public. Yeah. Yeah, that's 0:55:15.480 --> 0:55:17.640 like I almost like again like to to to to 0:55:18.000 --> 0:55:21.600 Ayannaka's comrades were anti school. It's like, yeah, like, okay, 0:55:21.760 --> 0:55:24.680 I hate school. I'm for d D schooling is great, 0:55:24.800 --> 0:55:28.120 but we need to do other things first. Yeah, you 0:55:28.200 --> 0:55:30.320 have to and like again like that you need to 0:55:30.560 --> 0:55:34.320 like just like support the workers, not the institution. Like 0:55:35.840 --> 0:55:38.040 it's like it's like saying I'm a vegan, so I'm 0:55:38.040 --> 0:55:42.000 going to go after McDonald's in place like like like 0:55:42.840 --> 0:55:45.719 so like I I my high school was like all 0:55:45.760 --> 0:55:49.040 them like incredibly conservative, but everyone was still in the Union. 0:55:49.160 --> 0:55:51.239 That was like the one that was the one thing 0:55:51.520 --> 0:55:54.200 that was like, well, okay, they were there. There. There 0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:57.120 there were two counter fanidling forces. One was that I 0:55:58.480 --> 0:56:01.000 the Christians didn't seem to understand liberation theology was so 0:56:01.080 --> 0:56:03.560 occasionally they'd accidentally hire leftist because they were like, oh, 0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:06.440 you're a Christian, You're fine, you're from from America. We're 0:56:06.440 --> 0:56:08.719 not gonna question you further. The second thing was that 0:56:08.880 --> 0:56:10.880 even everyone everyone was in the Union, and that was 0:56:10.960 --> 0:56:12.960 like that was that was literally the only those are 0:56:13.000 --> 0:56:17.880 the only two left wing. Like I've gotten into so 0:56:18.040 --> 0:56:21.320 many teaching spaces by talking about how I like critical 0:56:21.360 --> 0:56:27.680 pedagogy and I don't understand Frary was a compete, or 0:56:27.760 --> 0:56:31.440 being like oh, I'm really really really into Chicago history. 0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:34.360 I especially love the history of like labor in Chicago, 0:56:34.440 --> 0:56:37.360 because it's it's huge people here here about it and 0:56:37.600 --> 0:56:42.800 they don't get that like I'm an anarchist, you know, 0:56:43.440 --> 0:56:46.520 And and a lot of the like um sort of 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:50.680 like education reform language. I think it's very funny. It 0:56:50.800 --> 0:56:58.360 is just lifted from radical like sociologists and anthropologists and 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:01.239 educators who are trying to find way is to um 0:57:01.880 --> 0:57:05.880 dismantle like authoritarian structures in schools, and so they'll come 0:57:05.960 --> 0:57:09.960 up with these like um, you know, like restorative practices 0:57:10.160 --> 0:57:12.200 and all this stuff, and then they kind of get 0:57:12.400 --> 0:57:15.040 they make their way up to the Ivory Tower and 0:57:15.120 --> 0:57:19.080 then get repackaged in this It's it's like, I don't know, 0:57:19.280 --> 0:57:21.800 it's like a machine or something that like sucks up 0:57:21.920 --> 0:57:25.920 radical ideas, brings them up to the academy, repackages them 0:57:25.960 --> 0:57:28.120 to make them nice for politicians, and then spits them 0:57:28.160 --> 0:57:32.760 back out. And it is exhausting and I hate it. 0:57:32.880 --> 0:57:35.000 It makes me so mad. I'll never forgive people for 0:57:35.080 --> 0:57:40.920 what they did to the term restorative justice. Yeah, do 0:57:41.040 --> 0:57:43.520 you have anything else that you want to make sure 0:57:43.560 --> 0:57:46.400 that people like understand about what's happening in the schools 0:57:46.480 --> 0:57:49.920 right now? UM, I guess just The biggest thing is 0:57:50.000 --> 0:57:54.200 I want people to understand that, like, this is a 0:57:54.360 --> 0:57:58.560 question of when and under what conditions are we going 0:57:58.600 --> 0:58:01.240 to be forced into a remote learning situation. This isn't 0:58:01.360 --> 0:58:04.080 like we want remote learning because we like it because 0:58:04.120 --> 0:58:07.840 it's fun. It's because it's going to happen if you 0:58:08.000 --> 0:58:10.040 like it or not. The schools are going to close 0:58:10.080 --> 0:58:12.800 if you like it or not, because the unless you're 0:58:12.880 --> 0:58:15.400 okay with, just like people are going to get sick 0:58:15.480 --> 0:58:17.720 and die and or going to work sick, which I 0:58:17.760 --> 0:58:20.760 think most of us agree that's insane. Um it is 0:58:21.600 --> 0:58:23.480 there are you We're going to be in a situation 0:58:23.520 --> 0:58:25.919 where we don't have enough staff to keep buildings open. 0:58:27.600 --> 0:58:31.680 So either we can try and mitigate that now and 0:58:32.040 --> 0:58:34.760 keep that from happening, or we can just start our 0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:37.560 hands up and stay fine. Let let the schools collapse. 0:58:38.360 --> 0:58:41.480 I don't want the schools to collapse. So, um, if 0:58:41.520 --> 0:58:43.760 we could just go remote for two weeks and get 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:49.440 some good testing in and have a vaccine requirement, and personally, 0:58:49.560 --> 0:58:52.120 I would like to advocate for remote as an option 0:58:52.240 --> 0:58:54.440 for parents who want it. I don't think that's on 0:58:54.480 --> 0:58:57.480 the table right now, but um, I think more parents 0:58:57.600 --> 0:59:00.680 out there should be demanding it. And I also would 0:59:00.680 --> 0:59:03.520 like to say to parents, you have a lot of 0:59:03.560 --> 0:59:08.000 power that you don't understand. Um, the school districts listen 0:59:08.080 --> 0:59:10.640 to the parents so much more than the teachers. One 0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:14.120 parents voice is worth like ten teacher voices. So if 0:59:14.200 --> 0:59:16.440 you see something going on in your schools that you're 0:59:16.480 --> 0:59:20.880 not comfortable with, if you have questions, contact your principles, 0:59:20.960 --> 0:59:24.440 contact the district, talk to people, talk to the other 0:59:24.520 --> 0:59:28.200 parents that you know, organize yourselves. Um, if we had, 0:59:28.520 --> 0:59:33.400 you know, strong parent organizations on our side, we would 0:59:33.400 --> 0:59:36.480 be absolutely unstoppable and we could have the school system 0:59:36.520 --> 0:59:39.880 that we want and that our kids deserve. Yeah, and 0:59:40.160 --> 0:59:42.800 I think I like the right figured this out a 0:59:42.920 --> 0:59:46.280 long time ago that you absolutely, yeah, look at what 0:59:46.440 --> 0:59:49.280 they're doing to the school board meetings with CRT. We 0:59:49.400 --> 0:59:52.080 could have that for people who are actually good people 0:59:52.120 --> 0:59:55.720 who care, like there's no there's no reason that all 0:59:55.760 --> 0:59:57.480 of the other parents couldn't be going and saying I 0:59:57.640 --> 1:00:00.120 want my kids to learn about race, and I want 1:00:00.160 --> 1:00:01.760 them to be wearing masks, and I want everybody to 1:00:01.760 --> 1:00:04.200 be vaccinated. Yeah. So I think I think I think 1:00:04.240 --> 1:00:07.080 that's a good note to end on. We you know, 1:00:07.240 --> 1:00:09.680 we can make this better. We just have to, you know, 1:00:09.800 --> 1:00:14.600 work together. Yeah, do you have anything that you want 1:00:14.600 --> 1:00:16.160 to plug? Like, do you have a way to support 1:00:16.640 --> 1:00:19.960 the teacher shore Um? I think I'll send you a 1:00:20.080 --> 1:00:23.880 flyer that we have. It has some information for contacting Alderman, 1:00:24.160 --> 1:00:28.080 getting COVID tests and potential to sign um. If you 1:00:28.160 --> 1:00:31.360 could post that, I would really appreciate. I definitely can 1:00:31.360 --> 1:00:35.840 definitely do that. Awesome, Thank you, thanks for coming on. Yeah, 1:00:36.040 --> 1:00:51.240 good talking to you. All right, Robert, do you want 1:00:51.240 --> 1:00:54.840 to open on us up with something? I don't know? Nope, 1:00:54.880 --> 1:00:57.520 you're opening the opening is is that is what you 1:00:57.640 --> 1:01:00.760 just did's already opened? Well, come to take it happen 1:01:00.840 --> 1:01:06.200 here the podcast about how things things do be crumbling sometimes, 1:01:06.320 --> 1:01:10.080 including our ability to introduce the podcast that page. It's 1:01:10.080 --> 1:01:13.160 actually a very meta art piece about the Yeah, we 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:18.400 started off very polished and slowly commentary on I don't 1:01:18.440 --> 1:01:21.600 know something. It's called out figure out what. It's a 1:01:21.640 --> 1:01:25.080 commentary on it. It's called metamodernism. It's the post it's 1:01:25.120 --> 1:01:29.120 post postmodern anyway. Um, what are we talking about? Disinformation 1:01:29.680 --> 1:01:36.880 and various bullshit today? So among the many disinformation vectors online, 1:01:37.800 --> 1:01:41.000 Joe Rogan's podcast is obviously one off, like the largest 1:01:41.200 --> 1:01:46.200 single single vectors. Yeah. I mean, I've said this before, 1:01:46.360 --> 1:01:48.760 but I'll say it again. I don't think there's a 1:01:48.880 --> 1:01:52.120 cable news station as influential as Joe Rogan. You know, 1:01:52.600 --> 1:01:54.560 you could, you could make commentary on like, oh maybe 1:01:54.600 --> 1:01:56.520 they have a larger viewership in terms of like their 1:01:56.520 --> 1:02:00.800 actual ability to influence large numbers of people. Um, there's 1:02:00.840 --> 1:02:03.880 certainly no single cable news host that comes close to 1:02:04.040 --> 1:02:07.680 Joe UM, and I would argue probably no network that does. 1:02:07.960 --> 1:02:11.919 He's extremely influential by virtue of the fact that he's 1:02:12.520 --> 1:02:16.880 um a meathead of people seem to find friendly and engaging, 1:02:17.000 --> 1:02:18.920 and he is very charismatic. He's good at what he does, 1:02:19.160 --> 1:02:23.080 he's good at talking. Yeah. So, multiple times during the 1:02:23.160 --> 1:02:27.000 past three weeks, Rogan has brought on two separate quote 1:02:27.040 --> 1:02:31.960 unquote doctors who have started to pedal something called mass 1:02:32.040 --> 1:02:35.120 formation psychosis, which is kind of a new vector in 1:02:35.280 --> 1:02:39.360 the anti vax kind of argument and like headspace, so 1:02:40.240 --> 1:02:42.760 like as for like the it could happen near portion 1:02:42.840 --> 1:02:46.200 of the episode, This one's pretty simple. Could mass formation 1:02:46.200 --> 1:02:49.320 psyches this happen here? No way, not this time. We 1:02:49.480 --> 1:02:52.920 created it. Not this time, No, not this time is 1:02:52.960 --> 1:02:57.160 totally made up, pure fiction. It's fiction. It's fiction. We 1:02:57.280 --> 1:02:59.200 made it up. We made this one up. It's a 1:02:59.280 --> 1:03:02.760 made up tip, it's a total fabrication. Nope, not really 1:03:03.720 --> 1:03:07.200 ever happened anywhere. I might also argue, no, nope, fiction, 1:03:08.000 --> 1:03:11.960 We've solved the podcast, total fabric This is not a thing, 1:03:13.240 --> 1:03:17.920 total fabrication, made up tale. So yeah, well, but when 1:03:18.200 --> 1:03:21.200 whenever these like cook doctors bring up mass formation psychoses, 1:03:21.480 --> 1:03:24.040 you can actually kind of watch them get close to 1:03:24.200 --> 1:03:28.480 understanding something real, but then they veer off into reactionary nonsense. 1:03:29.000 --> 1:03:33.320 Like most powerful nonsense, there is an element of truth 1:03:33.600 --> 1:03:37.480 that it is uh spinning off of, you know. So 1:03:37.960 --> 1:03:39.400 let's start off with some of the more kind of 1:03:39.440 --> 1:03:43.320 deranged examples and well then eventually providing at least some 1:03:43.400 --> 1:03:47.360 background onto the whole massformation psychoa, this, this idea, and 1:03:47.400 --> 1:03:49.000 then we'll kind of discuss some of the more slightly 1:03:49.040 --> 1:03:52.560 interesting aspects of this argument that Eurogan seems fond of 1:03:52.680 --> 1:03:55.000 pushing right now. So, the first thing I want to 1:03:55.040 --> 1:03:59.480 talk about is Dr Peter McCole, which is not the 1:04:00.200 --> 1:04:02.919 the guy that was trending on Twitter last week or whatever, 1:04:03.080 --> 1:04:05.280 this was. This is someone else that Rogan brought on 1:04:05.360 --> 1:04:08.000 a few weeks previously who actually started talking about this 1:04:08.120 --> 1:04:12.440 first um so background on McColl. By most accounts, he 1:04:12.600 --> 1:04:15.360 was like a top cardiologist for many years. You know. 1:04:15.520 --> 1:04:18.040 He he shares a similar story to other doctors who 1:04:18.040 --> 1:04:22.240 have become kind of COVID conspiracy celebrities. Former friends and 1:04:22.280 --> 1:04:24.080 co workers say he was a pretty reasonable guy and 1:04:24.120 --> 1:04:26.520 a good doctor, and then COVID he realized he could 1:04:26.520 --> 1:04:29.520 be worth millions of dollars. Yeah, COVID head that he 1:04:29.560 --> 1:04:31.840 started to kind of go off the rails, and he 1:04:32.320 --> 1:04:35.240 he initially began an helping conspiracy theories, in particular around 1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:39.360 hydroxy chlora quinn um. And McColl was also in the 1:04:39.440 --> 1:04:43.560 news earlier this year due to or I guess uh, 1:04:43.920 --> 1:04:46.800 due to a legal dispute with his former employer, Baylor 1:04:46.960 --> 1:04:50.760 University Health So, according to a lawsuit, for nearly six 1:04:50.800 --> 1:04:54.040 months after McCall's employment had ended, he continued to use 1:04:54.080 --> 1:04:56.480 his professional titles such as the Vice Chief of Internal 1:04:56.560 --> 1:04:59.560 Medicine at Baylor University, and this represented himself as a 1:04:59.600 --> 1:05:02.000 Baylor and ploye dozens if not hundreds of times in 1:05:02.120 --> 1:05:05.520 media interviews in which he spread disinformation about the pandemic. 1:05:06.080 --> 1:05:10.080 So the type of misinformation that he talks about, you know, 1:05:10.280 --> 1:05:14.840 pretty basic stuff. Vaccines are neither safe nor effective. Um. 1:05:14.920 --> 1:05:18.280 He was a very early hydroxical orkin proponent. Um. He 1:05:18.360 --> 1:05:21.800 claims that there's no asymptomatic COVID transmission at all, even 1:05:21.840 --> 1:05:24.720 if you're not vaccinated. Um. And he claims that you 1:05:24.760 --> 1:05:27.240 cannot get COVID twice once you have it once, the 1:05:27.400 --> 1:05:31.400 post infection natural immunity is a protective against all future 1:05:31.480 --> 1:05:34.920 COVID disease, which, of course this thing works that way, 1:05:36.280 --> 1:05:38.040 works that way. Yeah. No, everything I just said is 1:05:38.080 --> 1:05:41.600 not true. All of it can individually be disproved by 1:05:41.600 --> 1:05:48.919 the existence of Jay Bosonaro. Every single to say that, Chris, 1:05:49.040 --> 1:05:51.840 I'm looking over at my digital picture frame that is 1:05:51.960 --> 1:05:54.640 just loaded with like a dozen photos of JayR bolsa 1:05:54.720 --> 1:05:59.360 Yaro in the hospital dying. Um. Yeah, I recommend everyone 1:05:59.520 --> 1:06:02.120 do that. It improves every morning. As soon as I 1:06:02.200 --> 1:06:05.160 walk up to my recording studio, I see JayR. Bolsonaro 1:06:05.200 --> 1:06:07.160 getting ship sucked out of his nose from a tube, 1:06:07.360 --> 1:06:09.080 and I just feel ready to take on the day. 1:06:09.120 --> 1:06:14.280 It beats coffee. Wow, that's strong words. Um. The other 1:06:14.360 --> 1:06:16.160 big thing. And since how since I want to get 1:06:16.200 --> 1:06:19.640 into the mess uh psychosis bullshit is that he he. 1:06:19.840 --> 1:06:23.240 McCall also asserts that fifty thou Americans have died from 1:06:23.240 --> 1:06:27.440 the vaccine shots. This is not true, um, looking at 1:06:27.560 --> 1:06:31.520 like deaths possibly associated with it, it is like maybe 1:06:31.640 --> 1:06:35.920 a thousand or two thousand, which sucks um. And but 1:06:36.080 --> 1:06:38.680 like that's that's the highest amount because again it's not 1:06:38.760 --> 1:06:41.160 even a lot of these things are not necessarily direct 1:06:41.280 --> 1:06:44.600 directly causal um, So it's hard to figure out what 1:06:44.960 --> 1:06:47.280 is what. But if there is a number, it's around 1:06:47.360 --> 1:06:52.120 the two wish thousand range. Uh not um. And McCall 1:06:52.240 --> 1:06:55.720 thinks that or at least promotes that the idea that 1:06:56.040 --> 1:06:59.720 like the vaccine is a conspiracy theory to suppress hydroxical 1:06:59.760 --> 1:07:03.280 work win and therapeutic treatment for COVID. And this conspiracy 1:07:03.360 --> 1:07:07.160 is organized at every level, uh, three different regions, corporations, 1:07:07.360 --> 1:07:10.920 big pharma, Hollywood, and and this is this is the 1:07:11.000 --> 1:07:14.440 mass formation psychosis is that we've believed that both COVID 1:07:14.560 --> 1:07:17.400 is like a big problem and that the vaccine is 1:07:17.480 --> 1:07:20.840 the solution. So I'm gonna I'm gonna play clip. Hopefully 1:07:20.920 --> 1:07:25.120 you guys can hear this of of of McColl talking 1:07:25.200 --> 1:07:30.360 about mass formation psychosis. Dope. We've seen mass psychosis in 1:07:30.520 --> 1:07:35.240 history before the horrific group suicides that have happened with 1:07:35.400 --> 1:07:39.320 religious culture. We knew a Nazi Germany where people in 1:07:39.400 --> 1:07:42.640 a sense offered their children up to eugenics programs and 1:07:42.720 --> 1:07:46.360 a progressive mass psychosis, and they themselves walk into gas 1:07:46.440 --> 1:07:49.000 chambers and my gas that they didn't fight, go kicking 1:07:49.040 --> 1:07:52.280 and screaming. This type of that's a mass psychosis. So 1:07:52.720 --> 1:07:55.960 what Desmond says is it must be four conditions not 1:07:56.320 --> 1:08:00.200 for a mass psychosis. The first is the population must 1:08:00.240 --> 1:08:03.120 be isolated. People must be isolated for a plot period. 1:08:03.760 --> 1:08:06.800 Number two, we must have things taken away from us 1:08:06.880 --> 1:08:11.720 that we previously enjoy. Number three, there must be constant, 1:08:12.040 --> 1:08:17.520 free floating anxiety. Anxiety of more virus is more disability, 1:08:17.680 --> 1:08:22.800 more depth, more anxiety. And then the last one is 1:08:22.880 --> 1:08:25.640 that cap or number four is there must be a 1:08:25.840 --> 1:08:31.320 single solution offered by an entity and authority, the vaccine. 1:08:32.040 --> 1:08:36.080 The only solution to the pandemic is the vaccine. We're 1:08:36.200 --> 1:08:39.160 in a mass echosis. And what Desmond says is with 1:08:39.280 --> 1:08:44.080 the vaccine, there is no limit to the absurdity that 1:08:44.240 --> 1:08:47.240 we will see no limit to the absurdity. So this 1:08:47.439 --> 1:08:51.120 idea of here, take a vaccine, Take any vaccine. That's absurd. 1:08:51.640 --> 1:08:53.559 Vaccines are different. There must be a winner, there must 1:08:53.560 --> 1:08:55.720 be a loser, must be something. Why would it be 1:08:55.800 --> 1:08:58.120 any vaccine. It's the same with the masks, where mass 1:08:58.120 --> 1:08:59.479 it doesn't matter what kind of mask, just put it 1:08:59.520 --> 1:09:04.479 over your absurdity, the absurdity of well, I've already had COVID. 1:09:05.160 --> 1:09:10.200 The CDC says you can't get COVID again. Okay, so 1:09:10.680 --> 1:09:13.920 listeners at home should know so that you understand what 1:09:14.120 --> 1:09:16.559 this video is that the entire time he's talking, there's 1:09:16.600 --> 1:09:19.000 what appears to be the eviscerated corpse of a black 1:09:19.040 --> 1:09:23.080 woman lying underneath it. Like it's horrifying. It's like very 1:09:24.560 --> 1:09:30.560 like I think it's like one of the dolls that 1:09:30.920 --> 1:09:33.240 medical students learned how to do autopsies on. It's not 1:09:33.320 --> 1:09:35.400 a real person, but it does look like the corpse 1:09:35.439 --> 1:09:39.080 of an eviscerated woman as he's just like chatting face 1:09:39.360 --> 1:09:43.280 really does look like it took me. I thought it 1:09:43.360 --> 1:09:44.800 was like I couldn't forget what was going on for 1:09:44.880 --> 1:09:47.040 like yeah, I mean, yeah, they're the real person. The 1:09:47.280 --> 1:09:50.000 cadaver dolls that they have for trading are quite good. Um, 1:09:50.520 --> 1:09:52.400 I kind of want to get one for the next 1:09:52.479 --> 1:09:54.000 time I'm in Texas and want to use an Hi 1:09:54.120 --> 1:09:57.679 e lane. But that's the story for another day. So yeah, 1:09:57.840 --> 1:10:03.639 that's that's pretty dumb. Actually, the notion that people were 1:10:03.720 --> 1:10:08.000 hypnotized into peacefully walking into gas I just need to 1:10:08.080 --> 1:10:10.840 stay like that's the not not only is that like 1:10:11.320 --> 1:10:14.000 that is objectively untrue to the extent that I could 1:10:14.040 --> 1:10:17.479 provide anyone interested with thousands of pages of reading from 1:10:17.520 --> 1:10:22.000 people who survived concentration camps about how they worked and 1:10:22.200 --> 1:10:25.000 why people walked into them, and a lot of it 1:10:25.120 --> 1:10:27.439 just boils down to the fact that it was they 1:10:27.479 --> 1:10:30.160 were making a very rational choice, which was I have 1:10:30.320 --> 1:10:32.519 no options here. I cannot get out of this, but 1:10:32.600 --> 1:10:34.400 I can at least make sure that my children are 1:10:34.439 --> 1:10:37.320 not panicking in the last seconds before we're killed. And 1:10:37.520 --> 1:10:40.880 a lot of the people the the because a lot 1:10:40.960 --> 1:10:43.280 of the actual like grunt work of of key of 1:10:43.400 --> 1:10:45.760 loading humans into the gas chambers was done by other 1:10:45.880 --> 1:10:49.640 inmates who were also not going through psychosis. They were 1:10:49.680 --> 1:10:53.120 given a chance to survive longer by helping to operate 1:10:53.320 --> 1:10:56.519 the camps UM, and those people you can read some 1:10:56.680 --> 1:10:59.200 of them did survive, UM, and some of them wrote 1:10:59.200 --> 1:11:01.680 about their ex arians is um, which is some of 1:11:01.720 --> 1:11:04.800 the most harrowing ship like imaginable for a human being 1:11:04.880 --> 1:11:08.680 to possibly go through. It is all tremendously well documented. 1:11:08.760 --> 1:11:10.800 And the most offensive thing I can imagine is saying 1:11:10.840 --> 1:11:14.320 that these people were somehow is saying Number one, it's 1:11:14.320 --> 1:11:16.479 incredibly offensive to say that they were going through some 1:11:16.640 --> 1:11:18.760 sort of psychosis and that's why they walked into the 1:11:18.800 --> 1:11:22.920 chambers and not this was the best option available to them, 1:11:23.040 --> 1:11:25.960 given what was going on and what like the situation 1:11:26.080 --> 1:11:30.120 they had been forced into. They did not have other options. Um. 1:11:30.240 --> 1:11:32.760 It was that or get machine gunned to death. UM. 1:11:33.040 --> 1:11:36.320 And maybe you think you would choose a different option. UM. 1:11:36.479 --> 1:11:38.519 But if you're critiquing them or trying to claim that 1:11:38.640 --> 1:11:40.280 like the only reason they would do that what they 1:11:40.320 --> 1:11:42.800 did was that they had lost their minds UM, I 1:11:42.920 --> 1:11:44.840 will I will hit you in the face with a brick, 1:11:45.000 --> 1:11:47.880 fuck you like that. That That's my answer to that. Actually, 1:11:48.000 --> 1:11:52.200 if you are someone who is interested academically and why 1:11:53.040 --> 1:11:55.760 people did some of the things that they did at 1:11:55.880 --> 1:11:59.160 at the death camps um, and like why how that 1:11:59.240 --> 1:12:04.120 actually function? And psychologically it's like a short book. It's 1:12:04.200 --> 1:12:06.840 this way for the gas ladies and gentlemen. And it 1:12:07.000 --> 1:12:09.759 is a quasi fictionalized book by a guy named Taddius 1:12:09.760 --> 1:12:12.400 Borowski who was a survivor of the death camp. So 1:12:12.439 --> 1:12:15.280 it's based on his experiences at Auschwitz and Dachau. UM 1:12:15.400 --> 1:12:19.240 and he he describes the way in which the world 1:12:19.479 --> 1:12:23.519 of the camps worked and the psychology of the camps worked. Um. 1:12:23.680 --> 1:12:25.880 And he's not and he's not a piece of ship 1:12:26.000 --> 1:12:28.519 grifter asshole. He's a guy who lived through all of this. 1:12:28.960 --> 1:12:31.080 So if you actually care about any of this, just 1:12:31.360 --> 1:12:34.280 read that everything this guy says is wrong. And if 1:12:34.320 --> 1:12:35.800 I had a chance to, I would hit him in 1:12:35.840 --> 1:12:38.720 the face with a brick. Please continue, Garrison. Yeah, it 1:12:38.880 --> 1:12:42.799 really sucks because it's not just a combination of medical 1:12:42.840 --> 1:12:48.000 misinformation but also just the most ship sociology. Um. And 1:12:48.200 --> 1:12:52.800 it creates this a really a really disgusting package of 1:12:53.520 --> 1:12:57.519 of of really bad sociology medical misinformation. Um. And like 1:12:57.760 --> 1:13:01.479 yeah he's doing this too, like because he can make 1:13:01.520 --> 1:13:03.280 a profit off of it. So he's saying these things 1:13:03.439 --> 1:13:07.320 so I know, Um. He mentioned a name, Desmond Desmond's 1:13:07.360 --> 1:13:10.040 the guy who kind of coined this term. We'll we'll 1:13:10.040 --> 1:13:12.519 talk about more about him at the end, but for now, 1:13:13.000 --> 1:13:14.960 let's go on an ad break and we'll be back 1:13:15.280 --> 1:13:19.000 to talk about Dr Robert Malone, the other other guy 1:13:19.080 --> 1:13:24.200 who's been pushing this nonsense. So I probably will want 1:13:24.200 --> 1:13:27.320 to hit with a break even more so, honestly. Yeah, 1:13:28.520 --> 1:13:33.240 And we're back talking now about mass formation, psychosis and 1:13:33.560 --> 1:13:37.160 the dumb people who are well or smart people who 1:13:37.200 --> 1:13:42.760 are using they're they're evil. That tough. So yeah, So 1:13:42.880 --> 1:13:46.280 after after McColl went on Rogan's show, it got that 1:13:46.400 --> 1:13:50.240 that show got pretty popular. Um one, one big right 1:13:50.320 --> 1:13:53.680 wing kind of Trumpett media personality named Melissa Tate was 1:13:53.720 --> 1:13:56.439 permanently banned from Twitter after posting about the podcast and 1:13:56.520 --> 1:13:59.120 making the following post to her half a million followers, 1:13:59.479 --> 1:14:02.639 Global Mombshale. Dr Peter McCall on The Joe Rogan Show 1:14:02.720 --> 1:14:06.040 says Maderna made the code vaccine long before COVID actually hit, 1:14:06.160 --> 1:14:09.439 and that the pandemic was a premeditated and concerted scheme 1:14:09.479 --> 1:14:12.640 by government and medical entities to then force vaccinations as 1:14:12.680 --> 1:14:17.240 the solution. So that's the type of narrative that they're 1:14:17.240 --> 1:14:21.000 trying to foster because the pandemic has been so good 1:14:21.040 --> 1:14:24.560 for Biden's approval ratings. It's really working out great for everybody. 1:14:25.080 --> 1:14:28.679 UH us U S Senator Ron Johnson also promoted the interview, 1:14:28.840 --> 1:14:32.759 saying Rogan asks excellent questions and McColl provides the answers. 1:14:33.720 --> 1:14:38.840 So yeah um. So Apparently the mass formation Psychosis Doctor 1:14:38.920 --> 1:14:41.879 Guy was enough of a hit that Rogan's team decided 1:14:42.040 --> 1:14:46.320 to very soon after bring on another line, conspiracy doctor 1:14:47.120 --> 1:14:53.080 Dr Robert Malone. So during the last week one, Rogan 1:14:53.200 --> 1:14:57.600 invited Malone onto his show. Malone's of of a virologist 1:14:57.720 --> 1:15:02.440 and and a immunization doctor who claims credit for inventing 1:15:02.600 --> 1:15:06.200 the m RNA vaccine in a pair of papers from 1:15:06.320 --> 1:15:09.679 the late eighties spoilers, He did not There was work 1:15:09.720 --> 1:15:12.639 on the vaccine before him, and work continued after him. 1:15:12.840 --> 1:15:17.719 Yeah yeah, um yeah. And in eighty nine he published 1:15:17.760 --> 1:15:23.240 a paper um kind of positing maybe mr NA can 1:15:23.320 --> 1:15:28.000 be binded with with other kind of UH proteins. He 1:15:28.120 --> 1:15:30.640 did not really do any work on it besides just 1:15:30.960 --> 1:15:34.400 saying I wonder if this could maybe happen, um, And 1:15:34.520 --> 1:15:37.559 then knowledge into this due a bit. There were people 1:15:37.680 --> 1:15:41.160 asking similar questions and publishing papers at the same time 1:15:41.200 --> 1:15:46.320 of the question and before. Yeah, so Malone actually thought 1:15:46.400 --> 1:15:49.000 this was too hard and abandoned this project very soon 1:15:49.360 --> 1:15:51.680 and then went to work for like the military to 1:15:51.800 --> 1:15:55.519 develop other random like uh, he thought the RNA vaccines 1:15:55.560 --> 1:15:58.040 were too hard, so he went on to develop more 1:15:58.120 --> 1:16:01.360 stuff around DNA vaccines and has been working with like 1:16:01.439 --> 1:16:05.080 the military and various like big farmer companies fund vaccines 1:16:05.120 --> 1:16:09.080 for a while. More accurately, Dr Carrico and Drew Wiseman 1:16:09.160 --> 1:16:12.160 are two doctors that are widely agreed and acknowledged to 1:16:12.200 --> 1:16:15.560 have put the most development work and actual like like 1:16:15.680 --> 1:16:19.719 actually doing the science to make m M RNA vaccines 1:16:19.760 --> 1:16:22.559 a thing. Um, And the of course development of them 1:16:23.200 --> 1:16:26.200 was due to you know, work of hundreds of researchers. Um. 1:16:26.760 --> 1:16:28.880 So it's it's not you know, one person does not 1:16:29.040 --> 1:16:30.800 invent something like this. It's it's a group of a 1:16:30.880 --> 1:16:33.280 lot of people. But but it makes it for an 1:16:33.320 --> 1:16:36.559 easy title for your viral video. Yes, and in fact, 1:16:36.640 --> 1:16:42.320 actually um uh logically, the That's a Journalist website reached 1:16:42.360 --> 1:16:46.160 out to Malone and for an article, and Malone replied 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:51.280 back stating that he did not actually literally invent the vaccine, 1:16:51.560 --> 1:16:56.120 but instead developed a vaccine technology platform. Um. Then he 1:16:56.240 --> 1:17:00.960 presented logically copies with nine patents, none of which are 1:17:01.040 --> 1:17:07.360 the patents for functioning mRNA vaccines. Um. But but he 1:17:07.760 --> 1:17:11.479 he claims to have patented mr and A technology. I 1:17:11.560 --> 1:17:14.479 mean he did. It's technology that doesn't work and never 1:17:14.600 --> 1:17:18.559 has and and never has worked and the patents are expired. Um. Anyway, 1:17:19.040 --> 1:17:21.000 I need to past some ship. That just sounds like 1:17:21.080 --> 1:17:24.439 a real easy way to make a good grift. Yeah. So, 1:17:24.800 --> 1:17:32.320 you know, as we've seen with my but because because 1:17:32.439 --> 1:17:34.840 Malone has crafted this you know, narrative that I'm the 1:17:34.920 --> 1:17:37.439 inventor of this thing. You know, like just like we've 1:17:37.439 --> 1:17:40.000 seen with my like COVID griff name Doctor's episode behind 1:17:40.000 --> 1:17:43.080 the Bastards, just a little shred of like medical authority 1:17:43.360 --> 1:17:46.320 can be more often transformed with propaganda into something much 1:17:46.400 --> 1:17:48.920 greater than what it is, you know, whether that be 1:17:49.080 --> 1:17:51.519 claiming to be the inventor of the m R and 1:17:51.560 --> 1:17:53.840 A or you know, claiming to be the former head 1:17:53.920 --> 1:17:56.960 scientist adviser. Neither of those have to actually be true 1:17:57.000 --> 1:18:01.920 to work, because propaganda makes it true via like repetition. 1:18:02.360 --> 1:18:04.240 So yeah, it's it's the kind of thing where like 1:18:04.360 --> 1:18:07.040 dunking on these guys like it's important here to correct 1:18:07.120 --> 1:18:09.880 the record. It doesn't do anything. No, the fact that 1:18:09.960 --> 1:18:12.960 they're nothing that they say is true does not matter 1:18:13.120 --> 1:18:15.080 when it comes to them having an influence in the 1:18:15.120 --> 1:18:18.400 community they have. If you get on Rogan, it doesn't 1:18:18.600 --> 1:18:20.559 like like you've already done the thing that you need 1:18:20.600 --> 1:18:22.600 to do to be able to to profit from this. 1:18:22.680 --> 1:18:25.320 It doesn't matter that you're lying. A few months ago, 1:18:25.400 --> 1:18:27.280 Malone went on to Steve Bannon show to talk about 1:18:27.320 --> 1:18:30.320 how the vaccines make cod worse worse actually, and you 1:18:30.400 --> 1:18:32.080 know this is this is the equiped from Steve Bannon. 1:18:32.439 --> 1:18:34.720 You're hearing it from the individual who invented the M 1:18:34.800 --> 1:18:37.960 R and A vaccines and has dedicated his life to vaccines. 1:18:38.200 --> 1:18:41.080 He's the opposite of an anti vaxer, right, So it's 1:18:41.240 --> 1:18:47.280 it's that. So, yeah, start starting around June one, Malone 1:18:47.560 --> 1:18:51.120 began to make the rounds you know, Bennon Tucker, Glenn 1:18:51.200 --> 1:18:54.880 beck Um and now Joe Rogan. So you know, starting 1:18:54.880 --> 1:18:58.360 in June, he had like less than five thousand Twitter followers. 1:18:58.960 --> 1:19:01.400 Uh and just before his suspension at the end of 1:19:01.439 --> 1:19:05.639 December for spreading misinformation, he had like over half million. Um. 1:19:06.479 --> 1:19:12.200 So yeah, so right after his Twitter suspension for lying 1:19:12.280 --> 1:19:15.240 about COVID and causing you know, misinformation to run to 1:19:15.560 --> 1:19:19.000 run rampant around a health issue. Um, that's when Rogan 1:19:19.080 --> 1:19:21.439 invited him on. It was right after he got suspended 1:19:21.520 --> 1:19:24.280 from Twitter. And there's been one particular clip from the 1:19:24.360 --> 1:19:28.120 interview that has really caught like the far right's attention. Um, 1:19:28.360 --> 1:19:31.240 you know, the tweet that's it's it's connected to is 1:19:31.320 --> 1:19:34.320 captioned on Joe Rogan. Dr Robert Malone suggests we are 1:19:34.320 --> 1:19:37.280 living through a mass formation psychosis. He explains how and 1:19:37.360 --> 1:19:40.240 why this could happen and its effects. He draws analogy 1:19:40.320 --> 1:19:43.120 to the nineteen twenties and thirties Germany. They had a 1:19:43.200 --> 1:19:47.320 highly educated population and they went barking mad. Um, they 1:19:47.360 --> 1:19:50.360 did not. They made a series of logical The Nazis 1:19:50.560 --> 1:19:52.720 did not go mad. They were not crazy, They were 1:19:52.760 --> 1:19:55.760 not out of their mind. They were doing they were 1:19:55.960 --> 1:19:58.559 a large part of what they were doing was saying 1:19:58.680 --> 1:20:01.680 things that they knew were were nonsense and lies in 1:20:01.880 --> 1:20:04.439 order to get elected because it riled people up. And 1:20:04.479 --> 1:20:06.880 then a large chunk of their policy was figuring out, well, 1:20:06.920 --> 1:20:08.960 if this is the ship that we've been saying, how 1:20:09.040 --> 1:20:11.719 do we how do we translate that into policy again? 1:20:12.160 --> 1:20:16.800 Realms have been written on this by credible researchers. The 1:20:16.840 --> 1:20:19.519 people who ran the camps were not insane, although they 1:20:19.560 --> 1:20:22.960 were often deeply depressed and suicidal because it's not good 1:20:23.040 --> 1:20:26.919 to run a death camp. They were all making rational decisions. 1:20:26.960 --> 1:20:29.200 And the people who let it happen, we're letting it 1:20:29.360 --> 1:20:34.000 happen because it was dangerous and scary to interfere in 1:20:34.040 --> 1:20:36.720 any way. They were all making rational decisions. There was 1:20:36.800 --> 1:20:40.640 no insanity responsible for the Holocaust, which is worse like 1:20:40.760 --> 1:20:43.160 and then everything, yeah, yeah, yeah, what they're like, they're 1:20:43.160 --> 1:20:45.320 they're what they're doing is like they're they're they're they're 1:20:45.320 --> 1:20:47.040 trying to give people a way out right like that. 1:20:47.160 --> 1:20:49.280 You know this is this is sort of like, oh, 1:20:49.439 --> 1:20:51.360 it's well, the Nazis went insane. All the people who 1:20:51.360 --> 1:20:53.400 followed them went and saying it's like, no, no, they don't. 1:20:53.520 --> 1:20:56.320 You don't get that way out like you they chose 1:20:56.360 --> 1:20:59.599 to do this. Yeah. The the scariest and most meaningful 1:20:59.680 --> 1:21:02.000 lesson to take from the Holocaust is that you yourself 1:21:02.080 --> 1:21:04.000 could be a part of a Holocaust, even if you 1:21:04.120 --> 1:21:07.600 didn't support the killing because it's extremely easy to not 1:21:07.840 --> 1:21:10.400 get involved and stop something like that once it reaches 1:21:10.439 --> 1:21:12.680 a certain level. And it's easy for the kind of 1:21:12.760 --> 1:21:16.360 political organizations that can make things like that possible to 1:21:16.560 --> 1:21:18.519 reach a point where they can carry that sort of 1:21:18.520 --> 1:21:22.479 ship out because again, it's scary to fucking fight them. Uh. 1:21:22.760 --> 1:21:25.400 Let's what the clips like a minute long, and I 1:21:25.479 --> 1:21:28.519 think it's worth watching to see both in the context 1:21:28.640 --> 1:21:31.200 of when Rogan decides to interject and when he decides 1:21:31.240 --> 1:21:35.679 not to basically European intellectual inquiry into what the heck happened? 1:21:35.680 --> 1:21:38.000 I hate this guy already in the twenties and thirties, 1:21:38.200 --> 1:21:41.200 you know, very intelligent, highly educated population and they went 1:21:41.280 --> 1:21:46.600 barking mad um And how did that happen? Um? The 1:21:46.720 --> 1:21:50.640 answer is mass formation psychosis when you have a society 1:21:51.160 --> 1:21:54.559 that has become decoupled from each other and has free 1:21:54.640 --> 1:21:58.120 floating anxiety in a sense that things don't make sense, 1:21:58.800 --> 1:22:02.760 we can't understand, and then their attention gets focused by 1:22:02.800 --> 1:22:05.760 a leader or a series of events on one small point. 1:22:05.960 --> 1:22:10.720 Just like hypnosis, they literally become hypnotized and can be 1:22:10.880 --> 1:22:14.360 led anywhere. And one of the aspects of that phenomena 1:22:14.800 --> 1:22:17.240 is the people that they identify as their leaders, the 1:22:17.360 --> 1:22:20.800 ones typically that come in and say, you have this pain, 1:22:20.960 --> 1:22:22.960 and I can solve it for you. I and I alone, 1:22:23.560 --> 1:22:26.519 okay can fix this problem for you. Okay. Then they 1:22:26.520 --> 1:22:29.080 will lead. They will follow that person through how It 1:22:29.160 --> 1:22:32.080 doesn't matter whether they lie to them or whatever. The 1:22:32.200 --> 1:22:37.240 data are irrelevant. And furthermore, anybody who questions that narrative 1:22:37.760 --> 1:22:41.320 is to be immediately attacked. They are the other. This 1:22:41.479 --> 1:22:45.080 is central to mass formation psychosis. And this is what 1:22:45.240 --> 1:22:48.839 has happened. We had all those conditions. If you remember 1:22:48.920 --> 1:22:53.240 back before, everybody was complaining the world doesn't make sense 1:22:53.600 --> 1:22:57.120 blah blah blah. Um. And we're all isolated from each other, 1:22:57.560 --> 1:23:01.360 we're all on our little tools, not connected socially anymore 1:23:01.560 --> 1:23:05.240 except through social media. Um. And then this thing happened 1:23:05.280 --> 1:23:09.559 and everybody focused on it. That is how massformation psychosis happens. 1:23:10.080 --> 1:23:15.040 And that is what's happened here. Horrible, completely wrong um 1:23:15.160 --> 1:23:18.760 in every single way. UM. They the Germans were not 1:23:19.000 --> 1:23:22.320 confused because nothing made sense. They were angry because of 1:23:22.360 --> 1:23:24.160 the terms of the Treaty of Verst Si That were 1:23:24.200 --> 1:23:27.519 also angry because of what they saw as and what like, 1:23:27.880 --> 1:23:30.040 because of a myth that had grown up about why 1:23:30.160 --> 1:23:32.559 they had lost the First World War, which was spread 1:23:32.640 --> 1:23:34.680 by people who were the equivalent in that time of 1:23:34.760 --> 1:23:38.280 Joe Rogan. They were scared of the left, of communism, 1:23:38.320 --> 1:23:41.559 of disorder, of riots in the streets. Um and one 1:23:41.680 --> 1:23:44.960 win Hitler took power. Most Germans did not like him, 1:23:45.040 --> 1:23:48.760 They did not blindly follow him. He gradually gained the 1:23:48.920 --> 1:23:52.000 vast the support of the vast majority of Germany through 1:23:52.040 --> 1:23:54.600 a number of different, very logical things. One thing that 1:23:54.680 --> 1:23:56.479 he did that got him a lot of support was 1:23:56.560 --> 1:24:00.960 he took businesses and homes and money Jewish people and 1:24:01.080 --> 1:24:03.719 from members of other groups that the Nazis were targeting, 1:24:03.960 --> 1:24:06.160 and he gave it to Arians. There was a direct 1:24:06.320 --> 1:24:08.360 financial interest for a lot of people who got in 1:24:08.439 --> 1:24:11.000 line behind the Nazis, and he established a series of 1:24:11.040 --> 1:24:13.400 programs like the Strength through Joy program that really did 1:24:13.600 --> 1:24:16.320 benefit in a way that they had not known before 1:24:16.680 --> 1:24:19.160 the German working class um and A lot of this 1:24:19.280 --> 1:24:22.240 was again subsidized through the appropriations of things that had 1:24:22.280 --> 1:24:24.920 been owned by people that the Nazis were targeting. People 1:24:25.000 --> 1:24:27.360 fell in line behind Hitler for logical reasons. He did 1:24:27.400 --> 1:24:29.800 not reach the highest point of his support from the 1:24:29.840 --> 1:24:33.519 German populace until the taking of Paris, which obviously that 1:24:33.760 --> 1:24:35.920 was something that a lot of Germans supported. They had 1:24:35.960 --> 1:24:38.400 spent four years failing to take the city in World 1:24:38.439 --> 1:24:42.679 War One. UM. Anyway, sorry, it's all nonsense, it's all lies. 1:24:43.720 --> 1:24:46.439 I think the reason why this is latching on so 1:24:46.600 --> 1:24:49.000 much to people on the right, like people on the 1:24:49.080 --> 1:24:51.880 right who who don't consider themselves fascists, who who think 1:24:52.200 --> 1:24:55.000 who would say Nazis are bad. Right, there's they still 1:24:55.240 --> 1:24:58.360 are latching onto this because it provides a way for 1:24:58.439 --> 1:25:02.720 them to not understand how fascism actually works, right, It 1:25:03.360 --> 1:25:06.880 provides an alternative explanation that makes them not have to 1:25:06.920 --> 1:25:11.320 actually think about what fascism is. Um. And that's why 1:25:11.400 --> 1:25:14.200 they're latching onto it. And it also is already it's 1:25:14.200 --> 1:25:17.919 already a part of the conspiracies they have around vaccines 1:25:18.000 --> 1:25:22.479 and power structures. So because because it's the conspiratorial basis, 1:25:22.520 --> 1:25:25.000 instead of like thinking about power structures from like an 1:25:25.000 --> 1:25:29.439 anarchist or like like hierarchy lens, it reinforces the world 1:25:29.479 --> 1:25:31.559 views they have and makes them not have to interrogate 1:25:31.600 --> 1:25:34.840 the ones that they don't want to. UM. It sucks. 1:25:35.520 --> 1:25:39.120 Malone's Substack goes into more of this and it's it's 1:25:39.160 --> 1:25:41.240 it's pretty bad. There's a this is a few quotes 1:25:41.240 --> 1:25:42.840 that I think really kind of tied this together. And 1:25:42.880 --> 1:25:46.280 then he has some horrible statistics. Um, he says, as 1:25:46.320 --> 1:25:48.479 many of you know, I've spent time researching and speaking 1:25:48.520 --> 1:25:51.240 about mass psychosis theory. Most of what I've learned is 1:25:51.320 --> 1:25:54.479 come from Dr Desmond. Dr Desmond is like the guy 1:25:54.520 --> 1:25:59.479 who pointed this term um and uh malone writes Desmond. 1:25:59.680 --> 1:26:02.599 Realize is that this form of mass hypnosis, the madness 1:26:02.640 --> 1:26:05.599 of crowds, can account for the strange phenomenon of about 1:26:06.720 --> 1:26:09.479 the population in the Western world becoming entranched with the 1:26:09.600 --> 1:26:13.680 noble lies and dominant narrative concerning the safety and effectiveness 1:26:13.760 --> 1:26:18.560 of the genetic vaccines, and both propagated and enforced by politicians, 1:26:18.880 --> 1:26:23.280 science bureaucrats, pharmaceutical companies, and legacy media. Of course, the 1:26:23.320 --> 1:26:26.519 obvious examples of massformation is Germany in the thirties and forties. 1:26:26.960 --> 1:26:29.200 How could the German people, who are highly educated, very 1:26:29.280 --> 1:26:32.200 liberal in the classic sense, Western thinking people, how could 1:26:32.240 --> 1:26:33.880 they go crazy and do what they did to the Jews? 1:26:33.920 --> 1:26:36.679 How could this happen to a civilized people. A leader 1:26:36.760 --> 1:26:39.360 of a mass formation movement will use the platform to 1:26:39.400 --> 1:26:41.880 continue to pump the group of information to focus on. 1:26:42.400 --> 1:26:44.280 In the case of COVID nineteen, I like to use 1:26:44.360 --> 1:26:47.679 the term fear porn. Leaders through mainstream media and government 1:26:47.840 --> 1:26:50.840 channel and government channels continuously feed the beast with more 1:26:50.880 --> 1:26:55.719 messaging that further hypnotize their adherents. Studies suggest that mass 1:26:55.760 --> 1:27:00.439 formation follows a general distribution. People are in washedt and 1:27:00.520 --> 1:27:05.280 hypnotized fully doctor in the group narrative. In the middle 1:27:05.520 --> 1:27:09.120 are persuaded and may follow if no where the alternatives perceived, 1:27:09.400 --> 1:27:12.759 and thirty percent will fight the narrative. Those who rebel 1:27:12.840 --> 1:27:14.920 and fight against the narrative become the enemy of the 1:27:15.000 --> 1:27:19.920 brainwashed and the primary target of aggression. So that's the 1:27:19.960 --> 1:27:23.120 way he thinks. That is how which is really it's 1:27:23.160 --> 1:27:26.840 really subject like in terms of how he's building a 1:27:26.960 --> 1:27:29.840 narrative in his head and specifically building a narrative for 1:27:29.960 --> 1:27:33.280 other people's heads to to view. Why do I feel 1:27:33.360 --> 1:27:37.040 distrustful of certain pieces of power but love other pieces 1:27:37.080 --> 1:27:40.080 of power? Yeah, And it's again like this idea that 1:27:40.160 --> 1:27:43.520 like well, Germany was liberals there Germany had an enormous 1:27:43.960 --> 1:27:46.920 right wing movement, like it was a hugely conservative country 1:27:46.920 --> 1:27:48.280 in a lot of ways, it would also had a 1:27:48.400 --> 1:27:51.080 lot of leftist organizing and a lot of leftists in it, 1:27:51.240 --> 1:27:54.120 especially after World War One, But like the Free Corps ship, 1:27:54.200 --> 1:27:58.400 there were these massive, million strong right wing armed street 1:27:58.439 --> 1:28:01.799 movements that existed for the tyrety of the Weimar Republic. 1:28:01.960 --> 1:28:05.640 Like it's again everything he says is wrong. Yeah, and 1:28:05.760 --> 1:28:09.440 again it's like the notion that like are fully burnwashed, 1:28:10.200 --> 1:28:13.200 are in the middle of persuadable fight the narrative, it's 1:28:13.200 --> 1:28:15.120 like these these people who are upset, these like these 1:28:15.280 --> 1:28:18.439 specifically conservatives were obsessed about thinking like I would have 1:28:18.479 --> 1:28:21.080 fought the Nazis. And because they don't understand how fashion 1:28:21.120 --> 1:28:24.479 and works in powerdy namics, they don't understand how how 1:28:24.600 --> 1:28:27.040 they're actually getting pulled into the same thing. But they 1:28:27.120 --> 1:28:32.559 still view themselves as the rebel right. They're right, yeah, 1:28:32.600 --> 1:28:35.720 like they're still focused on being Yeah, it's absolutely like 1:28:35.720 --> 1:28:38.040 they're still focused on being the rebel and like we're 1:28:38.080 --> 1:28:40.639 rebelling against the vaccine that that is just like rebelling 1:28:40.640 --> 1:28:45.360 against the Nazis. And you're like, what, um, so, I 1:28:45.360 --> 1:28:48.479 just want to say about those numbers if they're too 1:28:48.520 --> 1:28:51.120 completely made up. Yeah. Yeah, when when people start throwing 1:28:51.479 --> 1:28:54.360 even numbers statistic exactly like that, it's because they're lying. Yeah, 1:28:54.479 --> 1:29:01.720 it's because yeah, yeah, absolutely not not. Yeah, that's that's 1:29:01.760 --> 1:29:07.120 complete nonsense. For one. Yeah, it's so so I get 1:29:07.479 --> 1:29:10.360 because now the other thing that happened around this interview, 1:29:10.439 --> 1:29:12.920 because it didn't give a lot of traction among the right, 1:29:13.240 --> 1:29:15.400 is that whenever these things gain traction, they also developed 1:29:15.439 --> 1:29:17.880 conspiracy theories that people are trying to suppress it. Like 1:29:18.200 --> 1:29:20.800 look at the Google algorithm when you type in certain 1:29:20.880 --> 1:29:23.599 keywords like I know that. The day this was trending, 1:29:23.600 --> 1:29:27.000 it was like if you google Dr Malone the interviews, 1:29:27.040 --> 1:29:29.120 only like the sixth result, the first one is this 1:29:29.240 --> 1:29:31.320 YouTube video debunky and like I did this, and like no, 1:29:31.680 --> 1:29:34.559 the first result was the obviously viral video of him 1:29:34.640 --> 1:29:37.280 saying the thing, Like they just they can take one 1:29:37.360 --> 1:29:40.840 screenshot that maybe someone made or maybe because of one 1:29:40.840 --> 1:29:43.800 person's computer algorithm that's what gave them and use this 1:29:43.880 --> 1:29:46.479 as like evidence that this is the entire system of 1:29:46.520 --> 1:29:48.800 the Internet suppressing the thing, Like no, the Internet wants 1:29:48.880 --> 1:29:51.320 things to go viral. Now, there's certain things where they 1:29:51.360 --> 1:29:53.880 like trying to shut down the spread of of dangerous stuff. 1:29:54.120 --> 1:29:57.400 But this got very viral. This was not contained in 1:29:57.439 --> 1:30:00.360 any way. But because of this notion like they're trying 1:30:00.400 --> 1:30:02.160 to hide it, you know, it plays into their them 1:30:02.240 --> 1:30:04.800 thinking they're like they're them thinking that they are the 1:30:04.880 --> 1:30:08.280 rebels or something. And there's also a very practical reason 1:30:08.479 --> 1:30:11.760 why the people who particularly know that they're lying do this, 1:30:11.920 --> 1:30:15.560 and it's because all of their success is based on 1:30:15.640 --> 1:30:19.040 a foundation of the way in which YouTube and Facebook 1:30:19.080 --> 1:30:23.640 and Twitter algorithmically amplified them and their predecessors, and they 1:30:23.760 --> 1:30:27.800 know that creating controversy over the fact that they're being suppressed, 1:30:28.360 --> 1:30:33.120 um leads to more content that jin's that basically algorithmically 1:30:33.160 --> 1:30:35.760 spreads their stuff more because more people are talking about it, 1:30:35.800 --> 1:30:38.760 because other people's channels start debating it, because idiots on 1:30:38.880 --> 1:30:40.519 the left are like, well, we should at least have 1:30:40.560 --> 1:30:42.760 them on platform them because we're anti censorship too, so 1:30:42.840 --> 1:30:45.040 let's debate them. And like all of this stupid ship 1:30:45.240 --> 1:30:48.840 feeds into spreading their stuff. It's a very intelligent strategy. Um, 1:30:49.840 --> 1:30:52.519 I hate it, but just in just in terms of 1:30:52.600 --> 1:30:54.920 how ridiculous it is. I know, a few days ago, 1:30:55.400 --> 1:31:00.880 a Congressman Troy Knells said that I that the transcript 1:31:00.920 --> 1:31:03.759 from the Joe Rogan Experience podcast episode with Dr Malone 1:31:03.960 --> 1:31:07.360 to the Congressional Record. Big tech wants to restrict your access, 1:31:07.439 --> 1:31:09.840 your access to information, but they cannot censor of the 1:31:09.880 --> 1:31:13.800 Congressional Record. Not te is the entire reason why you 1:31:13.920 --> 1:31:18.040 know about these people. Yeah, yeah, entirely. So if we're 1:31:18.120 --> 1:31:21.400 not for big Tech, Joe Rogan would be narrating videos 1:31:21.479 --> 1:31:26.640 of robots fighting. So Jack Sobiak got real into this 1:31:26.920 --> 1:31:29.240 because he loves anything that goes viral. If it weren't 1:31:29.280 --> 1:31:31.760 for big Tech, Jacks Beak would have died in the 1:31:31.880 --> 1:31:36.120 ditch of an oxycontent overdose. So he got real into it. 1:31:36.240 --> 1:31:38.640 He changed his like he changed his Twitter name to 1:31:38.800 --> 1:31:43.320 Jack mass Formation, psychosis psychosa Beck or some bullshit like that. 1:31:45.360 --> 1:31:48.240 Stupid and it was. It was tweeting about a NonStop 1:31:48.320 --> 1:31:50.719 for a week and like like a kid learning about 1:31:50.720 --> 1:31:54.400 a new topic because of synchronicity' He's gonna like projected 1:31:54.479 --> 1:31:57.160 onto everything he sees now because like this this new 1:31:57.280 --> 1:31:59.840 all encompassing topic that makes you avoid what fashions an 1:31:59.840 --> 1:32:02.400 act really is and then point out at the things 1:32:02.479 --> 1:32:04.879 you don't like because of course, he's gonna apply to everything. 1:32:05.160 --> 1:32:08.639 He He made a tweet right before January six, um 1:32:08.960 --> 1:32:13.679 as the anniversary of the capitol intermpted ku thing Regime 1:32:13.760 --> 1:32:16.679 media has launched a propaganda push against Ashley Babbitt today 1:32:16.920 --> 1:32:20.919 to psychologically prep their flock for the upcoming mass formation 1:32:21.000 --> 1:32:25.280 event planned for January six this week. This this is 1:32:25.320 --> 1:32:30.080 called priming as a textbook mass formation theory tactic, wait 1:32:30.200 --> 1:32:35.840 till you see what comes next? And six today has anything? 1:32:36.080 --> 1:32:40.439 What happened? Goddamn thing? They got fucking lin Manuel Morenda 1:32:40.560 --> 1:32:47.400 to sing songs? Did you see that that wasn't He 1:32:48.000 --> 1:32:50.240 might have said something in the beginning that was due, 1:32:50.280 --> 1:32:53.760 but the performance has been played before on other things. Well, 1:32:53.840 --> 1:32:55.800 and I am you know what, if we're taught trying 1:32:55.840 --> 1:32:59.320 to reach across the aisle, I am willing to admit 1:32:59.439 --> 1:33:02.160 that the pop ularity of lin Manuel Miranda might be 1:33:02.560 --> 1:33:09.960 a mass formation psychosis. Absolutely, the popularity of Hamilton's is 1:33:09.960 --> 1:33:14.000 a vest formation psychosis. Absolutely, we're just being assholes, But like, 1:33:14.000 --> 1:33:16.880 like seriously like it again, but it doesn't. It does. 1:33:17.040 --> 1:33:21.280 The fuck is when it when it comes to again, 1:33:21.439 --> 1:33:24.080 like the fact that he said there's gonna be this 1:33:24.720 --> 1:33:29.760 whatever psych mass formation psychosis event on the anniversary of 1:33:29.840 --> 1:33:31.720 January six, then it's going to be huge watch for 1:33:31.880 --> 1:33:35.400 and nothing happens, doesn't matter, never matters, will never matter, 1:33:36.000 --> 1:33:39.960 um because again, like it's it's I think one of 1:33:40.000 --> 1:33:41.920 the issues that we have here is the degree to 1:33:42.000 --> 1:33:46.040 which brain brainwashing and hypnosis and stuff are talked about 1:33:46.080 --> 1:33:48.559 within kind of discussions of a cultic milieu when they're 1:33:48.640 --> 1:33:50.840 not really a factor, not a factor in cults, not 1:33:51.560 --> 1:33:53.720 nearly as much as you think. Yeah, and not in 1:33:53.800 --> 1:33:55.280 the way that you think. There's things that like you 1:33:55.360 --> 1:33:58.559 could call brainwashing, but the the and you could even 1:33:58.600 --> 1:34:02.840 maybe call hypnosis, although that's a lot murkier, it is 1:34:02.840 --> 1:34:06.600 a very technical, Yeah, but but the what actually like 1:34:06.800 --> 1:34:09.880 the stuff that's actually happens. Again, it's always much more 1:34:10.000 --> 1:34:12.920 logical and rational if you can just inhabit the mental 1:34:13.000 --> 1:34:16.920 space of the people who are in those communities because 1:34:16.960 --> 1:34:19.320 of what they're primed to believe first and because of 1:34:19.360 --> 1:34:22.040 what is happening socially, because of the degree to which 1:34:22.080 --> 1:34:25.120 they isolate themselves from people who are outside of that bubble. 1:34:25.439 --> 1:34:28.200 Like that's why you it's so hard to get them out. 1:34:28.360 --> 1:34:31.320 It's not that like magically their brains have been taken over. 1:34:31.680 --> 1:34:34.519 It's that they have pretty methodically been put into a 1:34:34.640 --> 1:34:39.840 position where rejecting what is being told to them within 1:34:39.960 --> 1:34:45.200 this context is immensely more painful, um than just continuing 1:34:45.280 --> 1:34:47.880 to believe things that are not true. Um. And there 1:34:47.920 --> 1:34:51.080 are more consequences for it, you know. Um, you lose 1:34:51.200 --> 1:34:54.120 a support network, you lose a great deal of of 1:34:54.360 --> 1:34:57.439 of your own opinion of yourself and your self worth 1:34:57.560 --> 1:35:00.639 if you start to reject this stuff. Um. And once 1:35:00.680 --> 1:35:02.559 you can trap people in that, it's the same way 1:35:02.640 --> 1:35:06.240 that like scientology works. Once you can trap people in that, Um, 1:35:06.520 --> 1:35:09.160 it's the evidence of their eyes and the fact that 1:35:09.280 --> 1:35:12.080 like they're obviously being lied to and the things that 1:35:12.160 --> 1:35:14.160 they're being told about don't come to pass. It's this. 1:35:14.360 --> 1:35:16.840 It's the reason why you have a bunch of apocalyptic 1:35:16.920 --> 1:35:18.840 cults who say the days the world's going to end 1:35:18.920 --> 1:35:21.200 on this day and time that day in time comes, 1:35:21.280 --> 1:35:25.200 the world doesn't end, and the cult goes on. You know, yeah, 1:35:25.320 --> 1:35:28.360 it's pretty it's pretty ridiculous. This this whole thing was 1:35:28.400 --> 1:35:32.880 started by this professor of clinical psychology at at a 1:35:32.960 --> 1:35:36.840 university in Belgium, Matthias Desmott. He seems to have a 1:35:36.960 --> 1:35:41.400 pretty bad understanding of history and actual like power structures, 1:35:41.880 --> 1:35:45.320 and does not know the least bit about fascism um, 1:35:45.439 --> 1:35:47.240 and has tried to craft this thing to fill in 1:35:47.320 --> 1:35:50.400 the gaps in his own knowledge and applies it to everything. 1:35:50.680 --> 1:35:53.519 And I've read some of his stuff. It's it's nonsense. Um. 1:35:54.120 --> 1:35:56.880 Again that just like the doctors who talked about it, 1:35:56.880 --> 1:35:59.080 they're like, yeah, he's using this also as a way 1:35:59.120 --> 1:36:01.800 to explain how COVID is not real and how the 1:36:01.880 --> 1:36:06.360 vaccine is a is a ploy to do bad thing. 1:36:06.880 --> 1:36:12.800 It's it's all ridiculous. It's irresponsible, um. And they're using 1:36:12.840 --> 1:36:15.280 it as a tactic and hopefully it's just gonna blow over. 1:36:15.479 --> 1:36:17.760 But I'm sure it'll pop up everyone every once in 1:36:17.840 --> 1:36:19.640 a while, again, just like it popped up, you know, 1:36:19.920 --> 1:36:23.519 a few weeks ago. But that's that's really all. I 1:36:23.560 --> 1:36:25.479 all I want to get into it. I I could 1:36:25.600 --> 1:36:28.040 say more, but I think we have said enough. I 1:36:28.120 --> 1:36:37.639 think that's said enough. Um, all right, well fuck it, Yeah, 1:36:37.680 --> 1:36:42.400 that's it. That's all I've got. UM Read This Way 1:36:42.479 --> 1:36:46.160 for the Gas Ladies and Gentlemen by Thaddius Borowski. Um. 1:36:46.720 --> 1:36:51.280 It will, it will have a major impact on the 1:36:51.320 --> 1:36:53.479 way you see the entire world if you if you 1:36:53.600 --> 1:36:57.680 actually read it. Um, there's some incredible pieces in there. 1:36:57.720 --> 1:36:59.640 One of one of the things that the Taddy has 1:36:59.680 --> 1:37:02.360 points out, does that like people only ever have like 1:37:02.560 --> 1:37:06.640 one kind of language for for talking about like the 1:37:06.760 --> 1:37:10.000 things that they feel, where whether it's something they they 1:37:10.560 --> 1:37:13.519 kind of vaguely care about or something they care about 1:37:13.600 --> 1:37:16.519 enough to murder over. And so when people engage in 1:37:16.640 --> 1:37:19.720 acts of like horrific violence on a mass scale, they 1:37:19.840 --> 1:37:22.800 often do it looking and acting like they would if 1:37:22.800 --> 1:37:26.120 they were irritated at somebody in traffic. Um. And it's 1:37:26.160 --> 1:37:28.439 the most unsettling thing about being the victim of a 1:37:28.520 --> 1:37:31.400 genocide that you don't see the kind of hate and 1:37:31.479 --> 1:37:33.320 the kind of rage and the kind of like what 1:37:33.439 --> 1:37:35.760 you would expect someone would need to be amped up to. 1:37:36.320 --> 1:37:39.400 It's more of like you see, more like kind of 1:37:39.520 --> 1:37:42.599 boredom and and irritation and all that stuff. Like it's 1:37:42.640 --> 1:37:48.160 not anyway read read Read Daddy a Sbarowski. Um, He's 1:37:49.040 --> 1:37:52.559 I desperately wish Joe Rogan would just sit and narrate 1:37:52.680 --> 1:37:56.360 this book on his show because it would do actually 1:37:56.400 --> 1:37:59.880 a service to the world anyway. Um. That's that's the 1:38:00.000 --> 1:38:18.479 episode could it happen here. It maybe I Robert Evans, 1:38:19.000 --> 1:38:24.479 host of this podcast, UM to introduce this today's episode, 1:38:24.640 --> 1:38:31.040 which is not my episode, it's it's Andrew's, uh episode. 1:38:31.760 --> 1:38:35.120 So how are you doing, Andrew? How do you feel 1:38:35.200 --> 1:38:38.639 in that introduction? I'm good. I think it's um could 1:38:38.720 --> 1:38:41.040 use some work, but you know we'll shop it. Yeah. 1:38:41.120 --> 1:38:43.080 We we never work shop anything. We just we just 1:38:43.280 --> 1:38:46.080 roll right ahead. UM. So abolished work and all that 1:38:47.240 --> 1:38:50.439 abolished introductions you know start in the middle. Why don't 1:38:50.439 --> 1:38:53.360 we just do that now in media res podcast? Yeah, 1:38:53.400 --> 1:38:56.439 we'll make every podcast like Finnigan's Wake, where the opening 1:38:56.479 --> 1:38:59.280 of the podcast is like halfway through a paragraph at 1:38:59.320 --> 1:39:01.320 the end of the aerographs at the end of the 1:39:01.400 --> 1:39:05.439 episode starts every everything will be a circle. Let's just Sophie. 1:39:06.040 --> 1:39:10.240 I think that's the new plan. Okay, okay, Andrew, what 1:39:10.280 --> 1:39:12.640 do you guys for us today? Right? So, today I 1:39:12.680 --> 1:39:18.720 wanted to talk about bio regions and bioregionalism. It's uh 1:39:19.320 --> 1:39:25.519 philosophy slash movement slash way of viewing things is there's 1:39:25.520 --> 1:39:27.280 a lot. So today we'll be exploring what it is, 1:39:28.040 --> 1:39:31.600 where it came from, and the rule I see it 1:39:31.680 --> 1:39:36.040 playing in our strides towards anarchy. But first, of course 1:39:36.560 --> 1:39:40.800 we should really get some context bioregionalism. Have any of 1:39:40.840 --> 1:39:44.400 you heard of it? By the way, I have heard 1:39:44.439 --> 1:39:53.200 the tournament right right, So it's actually pretty recent, um, 1:39:53.840 --> 1:39:57.040 all things considered. UM. It was coined as a tomb 1:39:57.120 --> 1:40:00.439 by a guy named Alan Van new Cook, founder of 1:40:00.479 --> 1:40:05.639 the Institute for Bioregional Research in and as a movement 1:40:05.720 --> 1:40:07.479 it really gained a lot of popularity in the late 1:40:07.600 --> 1:40:13.400 nineteen seventies in the Osaks, Appalachia, Hudson River, and San 1:40:13.439 --> 1:40:17.560 Francisco Bay Area regions. UM. They had a conference in 1:40:17.640 --> 1:40:22.920 a prairie, interestingly enough near Kansas City, and they've also 1:40:23.000 --> 1:40:28.120 had conferences in the Squamish bioregion of British Columbia as 1:40:28.200 --> 1:40:31.160 well as the Gulf of Main bio region on the Atlantic. 1:40:32.479 --> 1:40:34.360 And of course, with all these different people coming together 1:40:34.880 --> 1:40:39.599 sharing all their different ideas talking about cool nature stuff, 1:40:40.160 --> 1:40:42.919 they developed a sort of a platform which they outline 1:40:42.960 --> 1:40:48.640 in papers on subjects changing from agriculture to forestry, to arts, economics, 1:40:48.760 --> 1:40:53.599 to community. So while it was a very North American 1:40:53.760 --> 1:40:58.759 focused movement and philosophy at first, it has also expanded 1:40:58.880 --> 1:41:03.120 to Europe in Australia and these groups there are hundreds 1:41:03.200 --> 1:41:06.240 of them all over. Um. They get involved with local 1:41:06.320 --> 1:41:10.200 ecological work like preservation and restoration, plumic culture or that. 1:41:10.720 --> 1:41:12.640 And they also form networks so they would link on 1:41:12.720 --> 1:41:17.799 specific issues like water conservation or organic farming or cheap planting. 1:41:18.840 --> 1:41:22.639 And of course bioreginal groups also get involved in attempts 1:41:22.640 --> 1:41:26.760 to make communities more self sufficient by mapping and utilizing 1:41:27.000 --> 1:41:31.240 local assets and well, as you come to see um, 1:41:31.520 --> 1:41:35.759 bioregionalism and maps kind of go hand in hand away 1:41:36.360 --> 1:41:38.760 um because it really is about that sort of big 1:41:38.840 --> 1:41:43.400 picture looking at the earth and the environment and outplace 1:41:43.479 --> 1:41:49.080 in it. So what is bioregionalism exactly? In essence, it's 1:41:49.120 --> 1:41:53.040 a philosophy based around the organization of political, cultural, and 1:41:53.360 --> 1:41:59.680 economic systems around naturally defined areas called bioregions. Sort of bioregions. 1:42:00.560 --> 1:42:04.960 There are areas defined through physical and environmental features, including 1:42:05.120 --> 1:42:10.439 watershed boundaries, soil and terrain characteristics, flora, fauna, and climate. 1:42:12.880 --> 1:42:17.120 Bioregionalism also stresses the determination of a bioregion is a 1:42:17.240 --> 1:42:22.760 cultural phenomenon and emphasizes local populations, local knowledge, and local solutions. 1:42:23.439 --> 1:42:31.200 Because humans are actually surprisingly part of nature. Our cultures 1:42:31.320 --> 1:42:34.400 or settlements they arise from nature. They arise from the 1:42:34.479 --> 1:42:39.040 characteristics of the bio regions that we inhabit. So I 1:42:39.080 --> 1:42:41.040 mean that to me is a clear bradish routine and 1:42:41.160 --> 1:42:45.280 bioregionalism and land back. And it also points to me, um, 1:42:45.760 --> 1:42:50.080 the fact that while bioregionalism maybe a fairly recent philosophy 1:42:50.120 --> 1:42:55.280 starsh movement, its roots and the ideas it presents are 1:42:55.320 --> 1:42:59.800 nothing new, you know, Um, I mean bioregionalism posits that, 1:43:00.600 --> 1:43:03.560 you know, human societies must learn to honor our bioregions 1:43:03.680 --> 1:43:05.519 and the connections between them if we have to be 1:43:05.600 --> 1:43:09.320 ecologically sound. And this was sell active is really old news, 1:43:09.439 --> 1:43:12.080 you know, for the indigenous peoples who have maintained these 1:43:12.160 --> 1:43:15.760 lands and been stewards of these lands for thousands of years. 1:43:18.720 --> 1:43:22.720 I think that thinking in a bioregional scale allows us 1:43:22.760 --> 1:43:28.680 to establish regenerative and circular economies, effectively restore local ecosystems, 1:43:29.080 --> 1:43:33.559 restructure our systems using ecological design principles, and of course 1:43:33.760 --> 1:43:37.560 deepen our cultural connections to the land we inhabit. So 1:43:38.800 --> 1:43:46.080 that to me really stresses the importance of bioregionalism in 1:43:47.720 --> 1:43:53.600 our approach to environmental issues. Before I continue, I just 1:43:53.680 --> 1:43:56.960 wanted to say that for those who want to like visualize, 1:43:57.120 --> 1:43:59.320 because I know this is a podcast, you can only 1:43:59.360 --> 1:44:04.160 hear my voice. UM One Earth has a pretty decent 1:44:04.240 --> 1:44:06.160 map of bio regions on their website, so you could 1:44:06.160 --> 1:44:10.080 just google bio regions and it should come up. They 1:44:10.160 --> 1:44:15.960 basically have like five bio regions on their map, and well, 1:44:16.000 --> 1:44:19.680 according to that map, trend that is part of bioregion 1:44:20.040 --> 1:44:25.040 anti NT standing for neotropic and E standing for East, 1:44:25.600 --> 1:44:32.960 and tadas grouped with South America and particularly the Venezuela 1:44:33.640 --> 1:44:39.000 Guyana's region for obvious reasons being that the Urn cou 1:44:39.439 --> 1:44:43.880 and other rivers that come from the Amazon flew out 1:44:44.120 --> 1:44:55.080 to you know, trend ads shows really so clunky segue um. 1:44:55.439 --> 1:44:59.120 There are a couple of different concepts that one might 1:44:59.200 --> 1:45:04.120 want to keep in mind when approaching or attempting to 1:45:04.400 --> 1:45:10.880 curate a bio regional understanding of the world. Of course, 1:45:11.000 --> 1:45:16.400 perspective and a bioregional perspective is important, and it's basically 1:45:16.479 --> 1:45:21.519 one that seeks to ensure that political boundaries match ecological boundaries, 1:45:22.400 --> 1:45:26.040 highlighting the unique ecology of the bio region, encouraging the 1:45:26.280 --> 1:45:29.680 consumption of local foods where possible, encouraging the use of 1:45:29.840 --> 1:45:33.599 local materials where possible, and encouraging the cultivation of needs 1:45:33.640 --> 1:45:38.080 of plans in the region. I will point out like 1:45:38.240 --> 1:45:41.439 from now that from what I've read about bioregionalism and 1:45:41.600 --> 1:45:44.600 the talks that I've seen, there are definitely some you know, 1:45:45.200 --> 1:45:49.920 liberal sensibilities, some capitalist realism um in the way that 1:45:50.160 --> 1:45:57.519 some bioregionalists talk about, you know, things like organizing our 1:45:57.880 --> 1:46:04.320 politics and our states and stuff around bio regions. Obviously, 1:46:04.640 --> 1:46:07.439 you know, they are pushing things pretty far because they 1:46:07.520 --> 1:46:13.599 do talk about, you know, going and really orienting our 1:46:13.720 --> 1:46:19.400 economy around you know, bio regions and thinking in terms 1:46:19.479 --> 1:46:22.519 of that. But at the same time, there's still like 1:46:23.400 --> 1:46:26.160 an almost passive acceptance in some of the readings that 1:46:26.200 --> 1:46:29.160 I've seen of capitalism. You know, I think that's pretty 1:46:29.200 --> 1:46:32.160 common in a lot of what I like to call 1:46:32.680 --> 1:46:37.719 almost radical um ideas and philosophies and stuff. Of Course, 1:46:37.800 --> 1:46:40.880 when I approached these ideas and these philosophies and stuff, 1:46:41.439 --> 1:46:46.160 I always try to, you know, keep that anarchist analytical 1:46:46.280 --> 1:46:52.440 freework in my head, understanding that you know, these ideas 1:46:53.640 --> 1:46:58.280 are still being filtered through announcemately like campus society and 1:46:58.360 --> 1:47:01.840 capitalist world and too you don't want to try to 1:47:03.080 --> 1:47:06.360 navigate that and sift that out and really get the 1:47:07.200 --> 1:47:13.000 nuggets of gold within these ideas. I don't see states, UM, 1:47:13.120 --> 1:47:14.960 and I think you would agree with me being the 1:47:15.240 --> 1:47:20.160 path out of you know, that's a climate catastrophe UM. 1:47:20.800 --> 1:47:23.759 For those who have been reading like you know, Against 1:47:23.800 --> 1:47:27.920 the Green and you know Grievers work, you know that 1:47:28.280 --> 1:47:32.720 states have been pretty equalsider from their very inception. So 1:47:35.000 --> 1:47:37.479 I think that if power regionalism would be effective, I 1:47:37.520 --> 1:47:40.280 think it would be best if it stayed away from 1:47:40.320 --> 1:47:46.800 that sort of status um conception. They do emphasize localism 1:47:48.320 --> 1:47:51.680 UM as the political localism, but it's always in the 1:47:51.760 --> 1:47:57.760 context of was often within the context of like the 1:47:57.840 --> 1:48:01.920 relationship between the local and esteem and that sort of 1:48:01.960 --> 1:48:05.040 thing almost like a kind of I don't know if 1:48:05.040 --> 1:48:09.720 I'm using this to in correctly, but like monarchism, does 1:48:09.760 --> 1:48:12.560 that makes sense some kind was it? Some kind of 1:48:12.600 --> 1:48:17.760 like municipalist almost something like that, But yeah, yeah, we 1:48:17.800 --> 1:48:21.200 should probably talk a little bit about like what what 1:48:21.360 --> 1:48:26.120 minarchism and municipalism are um, just so people don't get 1:48:26.200 --> 1:48:30.560 kind of caught up on the terms UM, and particularly 1:48:30.640 --> 1:48:33.479 I think that like within a context of like the 1:48:33.600 --> 1:48:37.200 United States, UM municipalism is kind of an easier way 1:48:37.280 --> 1:48:40.759 to sell folks who may be more conservative on certain 1:48:40.800 --> 1:48:45.560 anarchists principles. It's basically the idea of yeah, strong community 1:48:45.920 --> 1:48:50.240 sort of control and autonomy UM, as opposed to uh, 1:48:51.120 --> 1:48:54.760 strong overarching kind of federal or state control over over 1:48:56.000 --> 1:48:59.920 you know, different communities. Yeah. Yeah, because say menarchisms kind 1:48:59.920 --> 1:49:03.080 of like a weird grab bag thing that's like, yeah, 1:49:03.720 --> 1:49:05.840 it's it's it's sort of like, Okay, so you want 1:49:05.840 --> 1:49:07.760 to be in an arco capitalist, but you can't because 1:49:07.800 --> 1:49:10.560 you're just smart enough to realize that you can't have 1:49:10.680 --> 1:49:14.000 a rights out of state. So either the Minerica state 1:49:14.120 --> 1:49:16.240 is the only thing it does is enforced property rights. 1:49:17.320 --> 1:49:21.240 And yeah, I think that's a slightly terrifying vision, but 1:49:21.320 --> 1:49:24.960 I think but you know, it's it's yeah, it's a 1:49:25.160 --> 1:49:29.160 more self away than the average Yeah, you know this 1:49:29.360 --> 1:49:33.960 is yeah, And I think that is less of a 1:49:34.040 --> 1:49:37.920 focus specifically on property rights and more of more based 1:49:37.920 --> 1:49:42.479 out of an understanding that UM like strong hierarchical federal 1:49:43.200 --> 1:49:46.879 or even state level control UM generally winds up creating 1:49:47.360 --> 1:49:50.240 reach a lot of a significant amount of like regional 1:49:50.640 --> 1:49:54.760 um uh, what's the word I'm looking for, um inequalities 1:49:55.040 --> 1:49:57.439 UM and and is responsible for a lot of like 1:49:57.560 --> 1:50:00.479 ecological devastation and whatnot. This idea that you can have 1:50:01.320 --> 1:50:02.840 like like one of the things that you would have 1:50:02.960 --> 1:50:05.320 with an actual municipalist system, as you wouldn't be allowed 1:50:05.400 --> 1:50:08.560 to operate a company like Coke Industries that's able to 1:50:09.200 --> 1:50:12.840 UM you know, be based out of I think Kentucky, UM, 1:50:13.160 --> 1:50:16.200 but operate a series of refineries in the Gulf Coast 1:50:16.400 --> 1:50:20.880 that render large sections of that area uninhabitable because you 1:50:20.920 --> 1:50:24.080 would leave kind of control over what can be actually 1:50:24.120 --> 1:50:25.800 done in that area to the people who live there, 1:50:25.880 --> 1:50:28.920 rather than being able to have UM a corporation by 1:50:29.040 --> 1:50:31.920 land there and have its right to pollute enforced by 1:50:31.960 --> 1:50:34.160 the state. Right. That's kind of like one little example. 1:50:34.640 --> 1:50:38.080 UM there's municipalists. The system in northeast Syria and Rojava 1:50:38.200 --> 1:50:40.519 is is sort of a municipalist system and one of 1:50:40.560 --> 1:50:44.400 the specifically libertarian. Yeah, I mean there's an distinction between 1:50:44.439 --> 1:50:49.880 like well generally and yeah, we're we're getting into the 1:50:49.920 --> 1:50:51.800 weeds a little bit here, but these are these are 1:50:52.200 --> 1:50:54.240 like that's kind of the basics of what those terms means, 1:50:54.280 --> 1:50:56.439 just so that people don't get lost when you when 1:50:56.479 --> 1:50:58.559 you bring them up, because I think a lot of folks, um, 1:50:59.080 --> 1:51:04.760 you know, down't have necessarily that kind of those definitions, 1:51:04.800 --> 1:51:06.439 don't just pop up in their head when you use 1:51:06.520 --> 1:51:10.800 that word, right right, yeah, fair enough. UM. I also 1:51:10.840 --> 1:51:16.280 mentioned that states have been eco sidle from the inceptions, 1:51:16.320 --> 1:51:18.680 I feel like I should probably trying to find that 1:51:18.840 --> 1:51:25.280 as well. UM equal side and ecosidal is um is 1:51:26.000 --> 1:51:29.799 basically um, this idea that came out to the environmentalist movement. 1:51:30.760 --> 1:51:34.439 UM meant to points to the surveyor harm to nature, 1:51:34.680 --> 1:51:38.680 the last damage and destruction of ecosystems that's you know, 1:51:38.840 --> 1:51:43.760 caused over decades by you know these companies and really 1:51:43.800 --> 1:51:48.040 by the system as a whole. So it's often viewed 1:51:48.120 --> 1:51:51.400 through like a legal lens, as in, you know, these 1:51:52.320 --> 1:51:58.519 companies should be tried for their crimes um and as 1:51:58.720 --> 1:52:01.160 like for committing go side and that kind of thing, 1:52:01.360 --> 1:52:05.120 because it's often viewed like as like illegal like lower 1:52:05.120 --> 1:52:07.439 street put in please to classifiy equoside as a crime 1:52:07.479 --> 1:52:10.839 and that sort of thing. Um. Only a few countries 1:52:10.880 --> 1:52:14.720 have done that, like actually quotified eco side but it 1:52:14.920 --> 1:52:19.760 is something that um, so environmentalists pushed, you know, really 1:52:19.800 --> 1:52:24.720 raise awareness as a crime against humanity and the planet. Yeah, 1:52:24.760 --> 1:52:26.479 I think it's also kind of important to understand with 1:52:26.520 --> 1:52:29.599 Equal Side is that like there's a lot of focus 1:52:29.720 --> 1:52:33.439 I think in like left like in fronmutal movements just 1:52:33.520 --> 1:52:36.200 purely incorporations and even if you go back to the 1:52:36.920 --> 1:52:39.240 companies memes just like Hunter companies destroying the planets like 1:52:39.280 --> 1:52:42.120 well yeah, like like half of the merse they don't. Yeah, 1:52:42.360 --> 1:52:44.519 and so you know, yeah, this this is something like 1:52:44.760 --> 1:52:46.400 like with Equal Side, it's like yeah, it's like it's 1:52:46.400 --> 1:52:48.880 not just corporations that do this. It's you know, it's 1:52:48.960 --> 1:52:51.000 it's the the state as a structure. It's the state 1:52:51.080 --> 1:52:53.920 as the institution, is the state as exactly, Yes, their 1:52:53.920 --> 1:52:56.800 agencies as they're sort of and that's that's what I 1:52:56.920 --> 1:52:59.880 try to Like, what I realized is is kind of 1:53:00.000 --> 1:53:01.880 sports now and I guess this is kind of like 1:53:02.479 --> 1:53:07.400 slowly like shifting away from birationalism, but that's fine. Um. 1:53:08.520 --> 1:53:11.320 What I will say that I've tried to like consciously, 1:53:11.720 --> 1:53:17.080 um sort of put into practice is emphasizing that like 1:53:17.560 --> 1:53:22.720 capitalism is not the only issue, you know, Um, like 1:53:23.560 --> 1:53:26.160 and those people like try to separate capitalism on the state, 1:53:26.240 --> 1:53:29.439 as if they could ever truly be separated. Even people 1:53:29.439 --> 1:53:34.880 who understand that, you know, aca capitalists are misguided and 1:53:35.080 --> 1:53:38.480 that you know, the state is necessary to maintain capitalism, 1:53:38.920 --> 1:53:42.960 there's some sort of like disconnect where there's like a 1:53:43.040 --> 1:53:47.479 whole ton of you know, organization and meming and all 1:53:47.560 --> 1:53:51.960 that about capitalism, and you know, oftentimes these sort of 1:53:52.040 --> 1:53:56.759 efforts are like particularly reformist types and unions and stuff. 1:53:56.760 --> 1:54:01.040 They try to mediate with capitalism through the state, you know, 1:54:01.720 --> 1:54:06.160 through the government, local re local government or federal government 1:54:06.439 --> 1:54:10.600 have the case. And what I really tried to emphasize 1:54:10.680 --> 1:54:13.439 is that it's not enough to have like a theory 1:54:13.479 --> 1:54:17.960 of capitalism. I think it's even more important to have 1:54:18.040 --> 1:54:21.240 a theory of hierarchy because I think it avoids it 1:54:21.320 --> 1:54:23.360 helps to avoid getting into these sort of traps of 1:54:23.479 --> 1:54:28.960 like um, well, class reductionism for one, but also like 1:54:30.760 --> 1:54:36.640 recreating certain structures within your organizations and in your efforts 1:54:36.680 --> 1:54:42.160 to change things, recreating the very you know, circumstances you're 1:54:42.600 --> 1:54:48.680 fighting against. You can't like condense everything into one problem, 1:54:49.280 --> 1:54:52.800 because try as we might, it's not that everything is 1:54:52.920 --> 1:54:57.960 one problem. It's an interconnected mesh that binds all of 1:54:58.040 --> 1:55:00.960 our problems together, and you can focus on, you know, 1:55:01.120 --> 1:55:03.720 really big extensions of that mesh, but it still is 1:55:03.880 --> 1:55:06.960 kind of just the mesh, and the mesh isn't the thing, 1:55:07.560 --> 1:55:09.880 but it connects to the edges of all of the things. 1:55:10.840 --> 1:55:15.040 And yeah, that type of ecology can be useful and 1:55:15.200 --> 1:55:20.160 even even relating to bioregions in terms of how they 1:55:20.200 --> 1:55:25.480 also connect with other territories and entities. I think it also, 1:55:27.040 --> 1:55:28.240 you know it this is one of the sort of 1:55:28.520 --> 1:55:32.600 problems that you have if you know, it's like, okay, 1:55:32.640 --> 1:55:34.560 so your plans to take sort of sovereign state power. 1:55:34.600 --> 1:55:36.040 It's like, well, you do it, right, But I mean 1:55:36.080 --> 1:55:37.440 the thing is, if if you if you you know, 1:55:37.520 --> 1:55:39.400 you seeze control of power of a state, right, your 1:55:39.400 --> 1:55:42.920 borders are essentially just like where the state's war machine 1:55:43.000 --> 1:55:46.120 ran out of steam, and you know, and this this 1:55:46.200 --> 1:55:48.680 becomes a normal problem because like I mean, if if 1:55:48.720 --> 1:55:50.800 you look at the bioregional maps, right, it's like there's 1:55:50.880 --> 1:55:53.960 there's literally no way you could ever have states with 1:55:54.040 --> 1:55:57.680 these borders because yeah, it's not like this, it's it's 1:55:57.680 --> 1:55:59.920 it's impossible, like you just you you cannot do it. 1:56:00.720 --> 1:56:02.120 And you know what that means is that states are 1:56:02.240 --> 1:56:04.560 sort of necessarily going, well, they're either going to be 1:56:04.600 --> 1:56:07.640 like a small fraction of a bioregion or they have 1:56:07.800 --> 1:56:10.200 multiple in them. And that's another sort of that becomes 1:56:10.240 --> 1:56:12.800 a sort of logistical problem because you know, like if 1:56:12.800 --> 1:56:13.880 if you want to look at like a lot of 1:56:13.920 --> 1:56:19.880 the worst sort of ecological sort of like human disasters, 1:56:19.960 --> 1:56:27.640 it's when you get states attempting to apply like states environmentalists. Yeah, yeah, 1:56:27.680 --> 1:56:29.760 it's more certifically like it. It's it's you know, they 1:56:29.840 --> 1:56:31.960 have something that like sort of works in one test 1:56:32.040 --> 1:56:34.360 environment and then they broadly apply it across you know, 1:56:34.400 --> 1:56:37.720 an enormous sort of variety of areas and regions to 1:56:37.760 --> 1:56:39.600 have their own biospheres and have their own and that stuff. 1:56:40.200 --> 1:56:41.760 That's like that's like the fastest way to kill an 1:56:41.800 --> 1:56:46.760 enormous number of people. Yeah, just like it's like forcing 1:56:46.840 --> 1:56:50.080 a jigsaw piece that obviously doesn't fit into a spot 1:56:50.160 --> 1:56:53.240 where you wanted to, but you're just breaking the pieces. 1:56:53.960 --> 1:56:55.880 I want to say as well, that like that sort 1:56:55.920 --> 1:56:59.080 of I mean, at least the state's attesting it, right, Um, 1:56:59.160 --> 1:57:01.400 I remember I kind remember the exact name of like 1:57:01.520 --> 1:57:05.880 the the sort of like ideology or whatever. I think 1:57:05.880 --> 1:57:08.160 it was like this Elie Soviet Union probably one of 1:57:08.160 --> 1:57:11.880 your name, this Elie Soviet Union practice related to like 1:57:12.080 --> 1:57:16.960 farming that they just applied over like a vast, vast 1:57:17.040 --> 1:57:19.920 region end up with like a huge decrease in like 1:57:20.680 --> 1:57:24.360 food production. I can't remember the name of it. Like Senku. 1:57:24.880 --> 1:57:27.880 Oh yeah, yeah, he just had this, he had this 1:57:28.040 --> 1:57:32.240 theory and it's just like push it and yeah, it 1:57:32.480 --> 1:57:36.240 led to some serious issues. Yeah, and I think, you know, 1:57:36.320 --> 1:57:38.880 if we're gonna talk like what's important about sort of birationalism, 1:57:39.000 --> 1:57:43.280 it's you have to have if you're going to implement 1:57:43.800 --> 1:57:47.080 anything right, you know, especially when you're trying to sort 1:57:47.080 --> 1:57:49.640 of manipulate biospheres, you're trying to preserve biosphares, you have 1:57:49.840 --> 1:57:51.800 to have local knowledge from the people who have been 1:57:51.840 --> 1:57:54.320 living in these biospheres for you know, enormous amounts of time. 1:57:55.120 --> 1:57:58.840 And that's something that states are really bad at and 1:57:59.280 --> 1:58:00.840 you know, tend to act to be suppressed and it's 1:58:00.840 --> 1:58:02.440 something you know, and I all said this there there's 1:58:02.480 --> 1:58:04.680 there's there's a kind of like there's like a kind 1:58:04.680 --> 1:58:06.960 of neoliberal version of this stuff. First, like oh, well 1:58:06.960 --> 1:58:08.960 do you know who local have like local knowledge blah 1:58:08.960 --> 1:58:10.520 blah blah. And then they're like, well, well we'll have 1:58:10.640 --> 1:58:14.200 local knowledge, but they that this will help them create 1:58:14.280 --> 1:58:16.960 market solutions to things like that also doesn't work and 1:58:17.360 --> 1:58:24.840 it's basically just tootized. Like yeah, but because that I 1:58:25.240 --> 1:58:30.160 really like sits le doesn't sit well with me. You know, 1:58:30.800 --> 1:58:33.600 like these sort of like see that. You see a 1:58:33.600 --> 1:58:35.720 lot of liberals like doing it a lot of these days. 1:58:35.800 --> 1:58:38.880 Whether they'll be like doing the whole land Acknowledge months 1:58:38.920 --> 1:58:43.120 thing and they'll be doing the that thing where they 1:58:43.120 --> 1:58:45.680 would just like say that, oh this is from so 1:58:45.920 --> 1:58:49.120 and sue culture and whatever, and then's just like boom, 1:58:50.000 --> 1:58:53.920 carry yeah, carry on with business as usual. Yeah, which 1:58:54.040 --> 1:58:56.880 I learned this technique from so and so tried, no, 1:58:57.800 --> 1:59:04.520 let me work as a consultant for your company. Yeah yeah, yeah. 1:59:04.560 --> 1:59:08.480 It's it's commod it's commodifying the thing, and that that 1:59:09.280 --> 1:59:14.760 both produces a warped replication and then it also kind 1:59:14.800 --> 1:59:19.600 of makes the original thing seem like used in a 1:59:19.680 --> 1:59:23.120 weird way as well, like it wasn't designed. Yeah. Yeah, 1:59:24.400 --> 1:59:28.840 I once reminded a bit of alienation and how we 1:59:28.920 --> 1:59:33.120 are just sort of separated from you know, aspects of 1:59:33.200 --> 1:59:37.680 our actual humanity because of the structure as we live under. Right, 1:59:37.760 --> 1:59:43.920 So instead of relating with the environment, or relating with 1:59:44.240 --> 1:59:47.839 our culture, or relating to other people, we're just relating 1:59:47.960 --> 1:59:52.640 through like these commodities and these products and these you know, 1:59:53.840 --> 2:00:00.040 just bastardized versions of things. And I think that it 2:00:00.120 --> 2:00:05.320 is also something that sort of pleagues like some environmentalists 2:00:06.160 --> 2:00:09.040 in terms. So there's there's there's almost like this subtle 2:00:09.520 --> 2:00:14.720 ill nation from the nature that um many of them 2:00:14.720 --> 2:00:19.840 seek to preserve, right where on the one hand, yes, 2:00:19.920 --> 2:00:23.480 you're trying to you know, preserve it and protect it 2:00:23.840 --> 2:00:27.600 and as commendable brand the other hand, the way you're 2:00:27.640 --> 2:00:34.360 going about it is basically like anti tactical to those schools, 2:00:34.840 --> 2:00:39.200 because you don't have that connection with the nature that 2:00:39.280 --> 2:00:42.600 you're trying to help. You know, what it seems like 2:00:42.720 --> 2:00:44.800 a lot of people not recognizing is that you know, 2:00:44.960 --> 2:00:48.440 humans are of hearts nature, right, and this is not 2:00:48.560 --> 2:00:55.360 a bioregional concept, right, This thing called bioregional reinhabitation in 2:00:55.480 --> 2:00:59.640 it in being that um meaning that we must come 2:00:59.720 --> 2:01:04.920 who to the geographical and biophysicalter and reinhabit understand its 2:01:04.960 --> 2:01:09.600 ecologically uniqueness and familiarize ourselves with the stories woven into 2:01:09.680 --> 2:01:12.440 the fabric of said land. It's history, it's people with 2:01:12.520 --> 2:01:15.160 it's cultures, it's flora, it's fauna. You know. It's only 2:01:15.240 --> 2:01:18.120 once we come home to the our byo regions and 2:01:18.320 --> 2:01:21.360 to our ecosystems, to all places, that we can really 2:01:21.960 --> 2:01:27.120 work together to see its potential, to see how we 2:01:27.320 --> 2:01:32.320 fit into it, how we can facilitate its healing, you know, 2:01:32.640 --> 2:01:38.960 bio region by bioy region. Yeah, that definitely mirrors stuff 2:01:38.960 --> 2:01:41.880 I've been working on relating to that type of like 2:01:41.960 --> 2:01:45.480 cognitive dissonance that you're talking about, and that alienation not 2:01:45.720 --> 2:01:50.080 just from like human human, but human to human to place, 2:01:50.560 --> 2:01:54.200 because yeah, we have like developed this like this commodified 2:01:54.400 --> 2:01:58.240 other version of nature that isn't actually what nature is. Um, 2:01:58.360 --> 2:02:01.040 it's it's it's we formed this thing that separate from us, 2:02:01.560 --> 2:02:04.720 which is not how we need to think about it, 2:02:04.760 --> 2:02:07.480 because it should be. We are all part of the 2:02:07.600 --> 2:02:10.800 same of of of that same system. We are not 2:02:10.920 --> 2:02:13.040 separate from it, and we're not isolated from it or 2:02:13.080 --> 2:02:15.240 its effects. We are just another part of it. So 2:02:15.400 --> 2:02:19.640 it's about getting in like getting a sense of ecology 2:02:20.160 --> 2:02:24.280 with both your bioregion and then the biosphere as as 2:02:24.400 --> 2:02:26.680 as a whole, and getting that ecology, which kind of 2:02:26.840 --> 2:02:30.360 will break down this notion of nature being in other 2:02:31.200 --> 2:02:33.720 and and I think because of the idea of nature 2:02:33.800 --> 2:02:38.400 being another that really kind of fosters our extraction that's 2:02:38.520 --> 2:02:42.360 led to our current problems because we don't use problems 2:02:42.400 --> 2:02:44.440 affecting us. We give you them as a practice as 2:02:44.480 --> 2:02:47.400 affecting the territory. And if we're if we're not the territory, 2:02:47.440 --> 2:02:54.680 then we can be safe. But that's not so I think. 2:02:54.720 --> 2:02:55.920 I think I may have talked about this on this 2:02:55.960 --> 2:02:59.120 show before, but you know that there's another aspect here, 2:02:59.200 --> 2:03:02.080 which is that viewing humans is sort of like separate 2:03:02.160 --> 2:03:04.680 from like this abstract nature is how you get a 2:03:04.760 --> 2:03:09.520 lot of really bad like racist environmentalism. Like if you 2:03:09.560 --> 2:03:12.680 haven't read The Trouble with Wilderness by Yeah Coroning, the 2:03:12.720 --> 2:03:14.280 Trouble with Wilderness is one of the things that like 2:03:14.520 --> 2:03:18.440 if you, yeah, if if you do environmental studies at all, 2:03:18.880 --> 2:03:20.200 like this is one of the first things they hand you. 2:03:20.280 --> 2:03:21.920 And the reason they hand it to you is because 2:03:22.800 --> 2:03:25.720 it you know, so the the the image of wilderness 2:03:25.800 --> 2:03:27.240 that we have is sort of like oh it's this 2:03:27.320 --> 2:03:29.680 like completely untapped thing. And it's like, well, yeah, okay, 2:03:29.720 --> 2:03:31.480 so that the reason the reason we have this image 2:03:32.000 --> 2:03:34.320 of like a wilderness with nothing in it is because 2:03:34.360 --> 2:03:35.760 there used to be people there and we killed them 2:03:35.800 --> 2:03:45.040 all or fortunately reported them. Yeah. Yeah, and it's especially yeah, 2:03:45.200 --> 2:03:50.480 it was for us literally planted those forests were I 2:03:50.640 --> 2:03:54.080 think even more pointedly should it should be stated those 2:03:54.120 --> 2:03:57.280 forests were a work of engineering that's on par with 2:03:57.440 --> 2:04:01.280 the Pyramids at Giza, if not like absolutely massively in 2:04:01.400 --> 2:04:04.560 excess of it there. They are a work of engineering 2:04:04.640 --> 2:04:07.560 that's every bit as impressive as any city ever built. Um, 2:04:07.600 --> 2:04:09.840 and every bit is like intense and required as much 2:04:09.920 --> 2:04:13.720 knowledge and scientific understanding. People just all we had, all 2:04:13.760 --> 2:04:16.760 of those people had died by the time white folks 2:04:17.520 --> 2:04:19.440 really because of the spread of disease or just because 2:04:19.480 --> 2:04:21.960 of acts like yeah, like I I think that's true 2:04:22.000 --> 2:04:23.640 definitely the East coast. With the West coast, I think 2:04:23.680 --> 2:04:26.000 it's even grimmer because the West coast you and this 2:04:26.160 --> 2:04:28.760 this happened, You still see this where like a lot 2:04:28.800 --> 2:04:31.960 of like the Incan National parks were literally like but 2:04:32.040 --> 2:04:34.480 people would go in and ethnically cleanse the population that 2:04:34.720 --> 2:04:37.240 was there. And then be like, oh hey, look it's 2:04:37.320 --> 2:04:38.960 it's now wilderness. This is now and this this is 2:04:39.000 --> 2:04:41.320 like the origin of the environmental movement. It's all of 2:04:41.440 --> 2:04:45.800 these like just like the most racist people you've ever 2:04:45.880 --> 2:04:50.840 seen in your life, like people yeah, well and even 2:04:50.920 --> 2:04:53.040 even even before them, like in you know, like like 2:04:53.120 --> 2:04:59.840 early hundreds, like not people like those guys. Yeah, it's 2:04:59.880 --> 2:05:01.600 like when when when when those guys are talking about 2:05:01.600 --> 2:05:05.000 like the purity of the wild like they're everything they 2:05:05.040 --> 2:05:07.200 think about the wilderness is also just about the purity 2:05:07.200 --> 2:05:10.000 of the white race, and it's it's yeah and if 2:05:10.080 --> 2:05:11.760 if if when you when when you start making that 2:05:11.840 --> 2:05:14.120 this like that's the separation between humans in nature, Like 2:05:15.040 --> 2:05:17.720 that's that's how you get this, Like that's how that's 2:05:17.720 --> 2:05:22.400 how you get these you know, ethnic cleansing, like genocide forests. 2:05:22.800 --> 2:05:25.920 I've been reading this very good book, just started last night, 2:05:25.920 --> 2:05:27.200 and I think we're gonna have the author on the 2:05:27.240 --> 2:05:30.560 show soon. Chris Begley. He's an underwater archaeologist and he 2:05:30.640 --> 2:05:34.360 wrote a book called The Next Apocalypse that's about collapses 2:05:34.440 --> 2:05:37.560 throughout history and how they actually differ from the popular 2:05:37.640 --> 2:05:39.520 conceptions of them. And he actually talks about a lot 2:05:39.520 --> 2:05:41.800 of the stuff we talk about in this show UM. 2:05:41.920 --> 2:05:44.400 And one of the points he makes is that this 2:05:44.680 --> 2:05:48.520 idea of like lost cities in dark jungles and whatnot, 2:05:48.760 --> 2:05:51.640 UM is based entirely on misconceptions first of all about 2:05:51.680 --> 2:05:55.320 like what jungles are, and then second on like these 2:05:55.760 --> 2:05:58.640 these very eurocentric ideas towards what lost means. Like he 2:05:58.720 --> 2:06:01.120 points out that every time there's in a lost city 2:06:01.240 --> 2:06:04.560 or civilization discovered, it's because archaeologists just like asked the 2:06:04.600 --> 2:06:06.400 people living there where the ruins were in there, Like, 2:06:06.440 --> 2:06:08.160 oh yeah, it's like right over there, Like we we've 2:06:08.240 --> 2:06:10.360 known about this since forever. It was never lost, we 2:06:10.480 --> 2:06:13.200 just stopped living in that specific area. And the other 2:06:13.280 --> 2:06:15.840 thing he points out is that like this idea of 2:06:15.920 --> 2:06:19.400 a jungle as like a difficult and primeval place is ridiculous. 2:06:19.440 --> 2:06:21.680 If you had to pick anywhere to be stranded in 2:06:21.800 --> 2:06:24.200 the world of in terms of bioregions, you would pick 2:06:24.240 --> 2:06:26.720 a jungle like the Amazon, because it's pretty easy to 2:06:26.800 --> 2:06:30.200 survive there. That's why people live there for so long. Yeah, 2:06:30.280 --> 2:06:32.840 there's a ton of the Amazon Amazon as you know, 2:06:33.400 --> 2:06:36.280 as we've discovered, you know, there were cities and stuff 2:06:36.280 --> 2:06:38.879 happening in the Amazon. You know, it was like planted. 2:06:40.120 --> 2:06:42.960 There's food jungle like food forests and whatnot. Is the 2:06:43.080 --> 2:06:45.440 term people use it within the jungle like people set 2:06:45.520 --> 2:06:48.480 the people set the jungle in the Amazon up to 2:06:48.720 --> 2:06:51.960 provide them with food in a way that isn't exactly 2:06:52.080 --> 2:06:55.200 isn't the same as like what we considered to be agriculture, 2:06:55.240 --> 2:06:58.080 but it's absolutely a kind of agriculture. And because people 2:06:58.160 --> 2:07:00.640 don't see it as aricle, just like well, that's just 2:07:00.840 --> 2:07:03.000 you know, they were just running around the forest before 2:07:03.000 --> 2:07:07.400 we arrived, you know, it's like, yeah, no, they had 2:07:07.520 --> 2:07:10.960 they had essentially built themselves a big smart house in 2:07:11.360 --> 2:07:15.360 the middle of the woods that provided them with everything 2:07:15.440 --> 2:07:19.480 they needed. Um with upkeep that we would consider minimal 2:07:19.560 --> 2:07:23.280 based on like what a lot of our European ancestors 2:07:23.360 --> 2:07:25.680 that certainly like did in terms of labor to keep 2:07:25.760 --> 2:07:28.440 farms going. Like if you compare, I mean you could 2:07:28.440 --> 2:07:31.160 also talk about how like peasants in the medieval period 2:07:31.240 --> 2:07:33.000 probably worked less than a lot of people in the 2:07:33.120 --> 2:07:35.760 United States Dudish like everyone works less we do now. 2:07:36.160 --> 2:07:38.400 But it's a lot harder to keep like a mono 2:07:38.560 --> 2:07:41.240 culture farm going than it is to to keep a 2:07:41.320 --> 2:07:44.600 food forest going yeah, because I mean, once it's established, 2:07:44.680 --> 2:07:48.160 it literally maintains itself. M But what was the name 2:07:48.160 --> 2:07:49.720 of the book that you were talking about just now? 2:07:49.960 --> 2:07:52.560 It's called The Next Apocalypse and it's it's very good 2:07:52.640 --> 2:07:54.960 so far. Chris Begley is the author. I think we're 2:07:54.960 --> 2:07:57.200 gonna have them on next week. But um yeah, I've 2:07:57.240 --> 2:07:59.240 I've found it so far about a third of the 2:07:59.280 --> 2:08:03.280 way and very good it or someone check that out. Okay, 2:08:03.360 --> 2:08:10.800 who wants to say we're back Just that's now, that's 2:08:10.880 --> 2:08:14.240 the exit area. You're welcome here we are or some 2:08:15.640 --> 2:08:18.760 so yeah, once we have like embraced our understanding that 2:08:18.960 --> 2:08:21.680 you know, we belong to the land and not vice 2:08:22.960 --> 2:08:27.480 and was therefore pattern ourselves and societies based on its needs. Um, 2:08:28.800 --> 2:08:30.520 you know, that's when we get to that place of 2:08:30.720 --> 2:08:36.960 bioregional regeneration, which is another key concept of bioregionalism. And lastly, 2:08:37.000 --> 2:08:40.880 there's the concept of bioregional sensibility, which was developed by 2:08:41.000 --> 2:08:45.200 Mitchell Thomas Show and it's about developing the observational skills 2:08:46.160 --> 2:08:50.360 to observe the bioregional history, to develop the conceptual skills 2:08:50.440 --> 2:08:55.240 to juxtapoose you know, the scale of you know, the 2:08:55.320 --> 2:09:01.440 community and the region, and the ecosystem, the bioregion, all 2:09:01.480 --> 2:09:04.400 these different levels. Ability to like think in terms of 2:09:04.600 --> 2:09:09.800 all of them, to develop the imaginative faculties too. Really, 2:09:10.040 --> 2:09:15.960 I would say, play with multiple landscapes and developed the compassion. 2:09:16.760 --> 2:09:22.400 Two empathize with and work with both local and global neighbors, 2:09:23.000 --> 2:09:27.080 not just local and global human neighbors, but also you know, 2:09:27.280 --> 2:09:32.360 the flora and fauna living next door. There are a 2:09:32.360 --> 2:09:36.920 lot of different bioregional practices happening all of the world. 2:09:37.520 --> 2:09:39.680 Um I didn't note that it started in North America, 2:09:40.280 --> 2:09:43.040 but I noticed a lot of the big projects happening 2:09:43.280 --> 2:09:48.040 in like South America, you know in Brazil Sinaldo Ville, 2:09:48.720 --> 2:09:53.680 in Costa Rica Regenerativa, to then Colombia Regenerativa and the 2:09:54.640 --> 2:09:58.360 Pluriversity in the Himalayas as well, and many others. They're 2:09:58.360 --> 2:10:04.640 basically engaging in efforts involving applied education, alternative agriculture systems, mapping, 2:10:05.160 --> 2:10:08.000 green belt restoration. There's the you know, the Green Belt 2:10:08.000 --> 2:10:11.200 project in Africa as well, and these are all efforts 2:10:11.320 --> 2:10:16.960 to really understand and work with the bio regions that 2:10:17.240 --> 2:10:20.440 these people inhabit. So just a few tips that I 2:10:20.520 --> 2:10:24.440 wanted to end this off with you before we and 2:10:24.560 --> 2:10:29.840 things off UM. I was trying to link, um, the 2:10:29.920 --> 2:10:32.280 things that I talked about in some way to what 2:10:32.840 --> 2:10:36.720 people on the groups they are part of, the organizations, 2:10:36.720 --> 2:10:39.720 they are part of, the communities, they're part of can 2:10:39.840 --> 2:10:44.280 do you know, as an action to strengthen their resilience 2:10:44.600 --> 2:10:49.440 or to develop you know, autonomy. Right in this case, 2:10:49.640 --> 2:10:53.120 it is the strength and resilience and also to develop 2:10:53.200 --> 2:10:57.400 the vitality of the bio region you inhabit. So, first 2:10:57.400 --> 2:11:02.200 of all, I think it's important done that we learn 2:11:02.640 --> 2:11:07.600 as much as we can about our areas, and learn 2:11:07.720 --> 2:11:12.440 especially through action, whether it be through cleanups, you know, 2:11:12.520 --> 2:11:16.760 observing the space around you, whether it be through observing 2:11:16.800 --> 2:11:21.000 weather patterns, UM bet to be through looking at the 2:11:21.720 --> 2:11:23.760 we're on hikes and looking at the way that the 2:11:25.160 --> 2:11:29.640 temperature changes and the texture of the soil changes as 2:11:29.720 --> 2:11:34.520 you go up and down and um altitude. I think 2:11:34.560 --> 2:11:37.880 it's also important to try to get involved with actions too, 2:11:38.880 --> 2:11:45.520 um restore natural features and to understand the police that 2:11:46.040 --> 2:11:50.440 those natural features have in the broader by region. Of course, 2:11:50.440 --> 2:11:53.600 there are lots of sustainable projects happening all over the world. 2:11:54.200 --> 2:11:58.480 You know, if they aren't any new area. UM be 2:11:58.600 --> 2:12:01.280 the change you want to see Art one, make it happen. 2:12:02.200 --> 2:12:06.520 And really also, I would say, find ways to link 2:12:07.240 --> 2:12:13.840 projects for environmental sustainability and restoration with projects for human umanancipation. 2:12:15.240 --> 2:12:18.400 Find ways to support access to you know, basic human 2:12:18.440 --> 2:12:21.440 needs within your locality. To find ways to sort of 2:12:21.640 --> 2:12:25.280 because when we speak of bioregions and you know, living 2:12:25.320 --> 2:12:27.920 within our bioregions and so on and so forth, that's 2:12:27.920 --> 2:12:33.640 all well and good. But if, for example, your region 2:12:33.840 --> 2:12:37.640 has to import whole bunch of food all the time 2:12:37.840 --> 2:12:40.640 to support the population, I think there needs to be 2:12:40.760 --> 2:12:45.600 ways to um decrease that sort of import and to 2:12:45.840 --> 2:12:51.880 find ways to um live sustainably within the area. Raise 2:12:51.880 --> 2:12:56.520 awareness of course as well, um about bioregional thinking, systems thinking, 2:12:57.000 --> 2:13:04.440 social ecological thinking. And yeah, just get to work anti work, 2:13:04.480 --> 2:13:09.320 work for figuring the structures of more horizontal, originally ethical 2:13:09.600 --> 2:13:13.800 and sustainable way of life. And of course disrupt the 2:13:13.880 --> 2:13:17.640 projects like getting the way of those schools. And I 2:13:17.720 --> 2:13:23.320 see that as tentatively as I can to avoid legal trouble. 2:13:24.080 --> 2:13:28.920 That's it. Take care everyone and be kind to every piece. 2:13:42.600 --> 2:13:44.800 Welcome to it could happen here A podcast that is 2:13:45.480 --> 2:13:49.200 remarkably today not really so much about things falling apart 2:13:49.280 --> 2:13:52.800 and is mostly about things in fact getting better and 2:13:52.880 --> 2:13:56.040 how we can do that. Um, I'm your host, Christopher. 2:13:57.320 --> 2:14:00.400 With me today is Garrison and we're also joined by 2:14:00.480 --> 2:14:02.600 Nick and Max, who are two members of the artist 2:14:02.640 --> 2:14:05.760 collective solar Punk Surf Club, who have released a very 2:14:05.880 --> 2:14:08.440 very interesting you game that we are here in part 2:14:08.480 --> 2:14:11.440 of talk about called solar Punk Features. Hello, Dick, I, Max, 2:14:11.520 --> 2:14:14.600 How how are you doing? Hey? Doing well? Thanks? Yeah, 2:14:14.720 --> 2:14:16.880 doing great. Thanks for having us on. Yeah, excited to 2:14:16.920 --> 2:14:19.800 have you too on. So I guess my first question 2:14:20.240 --> 2:14:24.800 is how did you too get into game design and 2:14:24.920 --> 2:14:29.040 sort of first have the idea to do a sort 2:14:29.080 --> 2:14:32.320 of like political gaming project like this. That's a good question. 2:14:32.480 --> 2:14:36.880 So we're not, um, we're definitely not game designers by 2:14:37.480 --> 2:14:42.040 profession or trade. UM. We're members of the artist collective 2:14:42.080 --> 2:14:49.640 Solar Punk Surf Club, and we're particularly interested in creating 2:14:50.760 --> 2:14:56.480 artwork and social practice that pre figures these kinds of 2:14:56.520 --> 2:14:59.280 egalitarian futures that we'd like to see in the world. 2:15:00.000 --> 2:15:04.360 And so this game was something that we've been kind 2:15:04.400 --> 2:15:06.600 of a project that we've been thinking about and sitting 2:15:06.640 --> 2:15:12.040 on for a little while and was kind of something 2:15:12.120 --> 2:15:15.280 that made us excited, got us excited, and we think 2:15:15.320 --> 2:15:17.120 there's a whole bunch of other reasons that we think 2:15:17.160 --> 2:15:19.920 it's a really cool um project to work on an 2:15:19.920 --> 2:15:25.240 important project, and um yeah, so it kind of took 2:15:25.280 --> 2:15:27.920 a took a deep dive headfirst into the world of 2:15:28.000 --> 2:15:31.040 game design and learning how to how to do that 2:15:31.160 --> 2:15:36.120 over the past year or so. Okay, so how about we, 2:15:36.280 --> 2:15:39.840 I guess also start with I guess explaining what solar 2:15:39.880 --> 2:15:42.600 Punk features is and sort of how it works, and 2:15:42.640 --> 2:15:46.240 then we can get into the sort of political aspect 2:15:46.320 --> 2:15:50.360 of this sort of game design project. So, solar Punk 2:15:50.440 --> 2:15:55.760 Futures is a storytelling game where players imagine pathways to 2:15:56.120 --> 2:16:02.440 a desirable future by collaboratively overcoming real world challenges. The 2:16:03.000 --> 2:16:07.120 object of the game is to collectively remember one of 2:16:07.200 --> 2:16:12.640 the stories that grew into our utopia. Um. The idea 2:16:13.040 --> 2:16:19.520 is that through back casting, where you assume within the 2:16:19.600 --> 2:16:22.800 context of the game that players are already in utopia 2:16:23.640 --> 2:16:28.920 and merely remembering back to their ancestors struggle, that players 2:16:29.000 --> 2:16:34.920 can transcend the idea that what currently exists must necessarily exist, 2:16:35.520 --> 2:16:40.960 which social theorists Murray book Chain described as the acid 2:16:41.080 --> 2:16:45.520 that corrodes all visionary thinking. So we wanted to make 2:16:46.120 --> 2:16:53.320 a system to facilitate collaborative performance sort of we call 2:16:53.400 --> 2:16:57.280 it a collaborative performance of memory, but one that combines 2:16:57.640 --> 2:17:04.920 sincerity with laughter and speculative storytelling. The game also combines 2:17:05.520 --> 2:17:08.879 a lot of different elements that we saw in other games, um, 2:17:09.640 --> 2:17:14.800 collaborative you know, the collaborative storytelling, cooperative gameplay, uh, some 2:17:15.080 --> 2:17:19.040 elements of role playing, and different kind of mechanics that 2:17:19.360 --> 2:17:23.600 we thought would build out that kind of, like I 2:17:23.680 --> 2:17:27.320 said earlier, those prefigurations of those egalitarian world So we're 2:17:27.320 --> 2:17:29.920 trying to you know, we're trying to make a game 2:17:30.280 --> 2:17:33.600 that had the fiction and the idea of utopia built 2:17:33.640 --> 2:17:36.480 in uh in terms of the goals of the game, 2:17:36.720 --> 2:17:38.960 but it was also we wanted to build it into 2:17:39.680 --> 2:17:41.480 some of the mechanics of how the game is actually 2:17:41.520 --> 2:17:46.080 played too. Um. But my question from here is sort of, well, 2:17:46.120 --> 2:17:48.320 I mean, I guess firstly is I think what sort 2:17:48.360 --> 2:17:50.440 of specifically drew you to solar Punk is sort of 2:17:50.520 --> 2:17:53.560 an aesthetic for for this, Like I know there's been 2:17:53.560 --> 2:17:56.200 a lot of sort of like the kind of social 2:17:56.240 --> 2:18:00.480 coology solar punk fusions, but I'm interested in what you 2:18:00.560 --> 2:18:05.280 specifically to it. So we see solar punk as a 2:18:06.000 --> 2:18:12.920 visionary utopian politics and aesthetic that critically engages the reality 2:18:13.000 --> 2:18:19.119 of capitalist catastrophe while maintaining a radical optimism about humanity's 2:18:19.160 --> 2:18:23.039 hopes for a communal, ecological future. Nick was just speaking 2:18:23.080 --> 2:18:28.800 to this. UM. We see it as a restorative justice 2:18:28.920 --> 2:18:33.800 process on a planetary scale among people, between humans and 2:18:33.879 --> 2:18:39.320 non human nature. So that means reclaiming pieces of the past, 2:18:39.640 --> 2:18:46.000 pre pre capitalist culture. UM, that means material accountability for 2:18:46.240 --> 2:18:51.480 old practices, and it also means radical adaptability towards new ones. 2:18:52.520 --> 2:18:59.160 I think it provided a useful way of synthesizing several 2:18:59.280 --> 2:19:04.000 currents that we had already been thinking about and involved 2:19:04.080 --> 2:19:10.680 in between new media and social practice, thinking not just 2:19:10.879 --> 2:19:15.760 about images and objects in space, but also the set 2:19:15.800 --> 2:19:19.680 of social relations that those things produce. Yeah, we're also 2:19:20.000 --> 2:19:23.440 we're like partisans within solar punk. I don't think there's 2:19:23.760 --> 2:19:26.520 I don't think there's too many pro capitalists within solar punk, 2:19:26.680 --> 2:19:28.800 but I think there are some people who are maybe 2:19:28.879 --> 2:19:32.480 drawn to the aesthetic but don't necessarily have a politics. 2:19:33.600 --> 2:19:35.040 But we do think that there's a kind of a 2:19:35.160 --> 2:19:41.120 latent horizontalism, a latent anarchistic politics in a lot of 2:19:41.160 --> 2:19:45.400 the aesthetics around solar punk and so uh as a 2:19:46.520 --> 2:19:50.200 as a collaborative as an aesthetic that is being defined 2:19:50.280 --> 2:19:54.520 collaboratively by people online and elsewhere. You know, we wanted 2:19:54.560 --> 2:19:57.360 to kind of stick out of position about what we 2:19:57.480 --> 2:20:01.879 thought a really realistic utop be in world might look 2:20:01.959 --> 2:20:08.720 and feel like, Yeah, and I think this is something else. 2:20:08.760 --> 2:20:13.119 I know YouTube, I'm very passionate about. Um is about 2:20:13.240 --> 2:20:15.400 specifically using games as a medium to do this and 2:20:15.440 --> 2:20:20.520 sort of this as like this kind of storytelling membrance 2:20:20.680 --> 2:20:23.920 as a specifically political intervention. So could you talk a 2:20:24.000 --> 2:20:27.120 bit more about you know, like a yeah, you know, 2:20:27.200 --> 2:20:29.880 good questions like okay, so why this and not on 2:20:30.120 --> 2:20:32.400 you know, on this sort of less more like like 2:20:32.480 --> 2:20:34.320 why this and not a guerrilla gardening? Why this and 2:20:34.400 --> 2:20:37.080 not some other kind of organizing etcetera, etcetera. Um, Yeah, 2:20:37.520 --> 2:20:40.880 her you tube say about that. Yeah, well, I'm not 2:20:40.879 --> 2:20:45.039 gonna hite on guerrilla gardening. I definitely think it's a boation. Yeah, 2:20:45.760 --> 2:20:48.640 it's also in the game. Yeah, that's true. It's it's 2:20:48.680 --> 2:20:50.800 one of the cards, one of the tools that you 2:20:50.840 --> 2:20:56.039 get to use as an ancestor. Um. Yeah, I think, 2:20:56.320 --> 2:20:57.680 you know, there's a lot of different things that we 2:20:57.760 --> 2:21:00.280 were thinking about when we were thinking about why game 2:21:01.320 --> 2:21:03.800 that I got a little bit into earlier. But you know, 2:21:04.360 --> 2:21:08.520 for one, UM, I think it helps reach abroad and 2:21:09.680 --> 2:21:16.080 often dep politicized audience with a fun way to kind 2:21:16.120 --> 2:21:19.680 of engage in some thorny political questions. I think that 2:21:20.440 --> 2:21:25.840 games as a participatory medium were especially interesting for people 2:21:25.920 --> 2:21:31.760 who are interested in sort of anarchistic modes of teaching 2:21:31.879 --> 2:21:38.320 and education, like education through doing rather than lecture. Although 2:21:38.640 --> 2:21:41.000 you know, we were also read a lot of good 2:21:41.040 --> 2:21:44.920 political theories, so I'm not I'm not opposed to that. Um. 2:21:45.480 --> 2:21:52.120 And then I think, uh, you know, games are also fun, 2:21:52.800 --> 2:21:57.760 and there's a lot of there's a lot of political 2:21:57.879 --> 2:22:02.359 organizing and activism work that happens out there that feels 2:22:03.600 --> 2:22:08.560 that's hard and that is necessary to do. But just 2:22:08.760 --> 2:22:12.240 because a lot of the important work to be done 2:22:12.360 --> 2:22:16.040 is hard doesn't mean everything that's hard is important, and 2:22:16.600 --> 2:22:22.080 everything that's fun is you know, trifling or not going 2:22:22.200 --> 2:22:26.560 to help us get where we're going and and overthrow 2:22:26.640 --> 2:22:31.840 capitalism and build a new world. So um, yeah, those 2:22:31.840 --> 2:22:34.360 are those are some of the reasons. Yeah, and I 2:22:34.440 --> 2:22:37.200 think that's especially sort of interesting point because I think 2:22:38.200 --> 2:22:41.640 a lot of what happens in left to spaces you 2:22:41.680 --> 2:22:45.240 get a lot of people doing stuff and they burn 2:22:45.280 --> 2:22:48.080 not really fast because you know, you're doing an enormous 2:22:48.120 --> 2:22:50.960 amount of work. It's all miserable. A lot of the 2:22:51.000 --> 2:22:55.879 times you're getting physically assaulted, and like, I think that's 2:22:55.879 --> 2:22:57.240 one of the things that's interesting to me about this 2:22:57.400 --> 2:23:05.119 is you need other forms of sort of community building 2:23:05.200 --> 2:23:08.680 and sort of like you need other forms of organizing 2:23:08.720 --> 2:23:11.680 that do not involve you being repeatedly traumatized over and 2:23:11.760 --> 2:23:18.480 over again. And that, yeah, especially just working on something 2:23:18.560 --> 2:23:20.240 like this, and then I don't know, just playing with 2:23:20.360 --> 2:23:23.360 your friends and having having things that are like collaborative 2:23:23.360 --> 2:23:26.279 and joyful and community building is I think very important 2:23:27.000 --> 2:23:29.120 as a way to just you know, even just this 2:23:29.200 --> 2:23:31.560 is on a very basic logistical level, but prevent people 2:23:31.560 --> 2:23:36.720 from burning out. Yeah, And and I definitely think that 2:23:36.800 --> 2:23:39.280 there's a role there to prevent people from burning out 2:23:39.680 --> 2:23:43.400 and and inspiring people with some of the fun ideas, 2:23:43.480 --> 2:23:45.040 the ideas that they come up with when they're not 2:23:45.400 --> 2:23:48.480 looking at a Google doc meeting notes but instead they're 2:23:48.480 --> 2:23:50.760 playing a card game and maybe drinking a couple of beers, 2:23:51.480 --> 2:23:55.320 and they're like, oh, how would I combine guerrilla gardening? 2:23:56.120 --> 2:24:01.600 And um, you know performance are too who bring about 2:24:01.680 --> 2:24:04.480 you know, to solve a specific challenge of capitalism like 2:24:04.640 --> 2:24:08.680 deforestation or these are some of the cards in the game. Um. 2:24:09.280 --> 2:24:11.760 And so I think it can be inspiring, you know, 2:24:12.120 --> 2:24:17.040 it's also um, it can be educational. I played with 2:24:17.200 --> 2:24:20.000 some family. Uh. I think the first time I played, 2:24:20.080 --> 2:24:22.840 when we got the physical copy that wasn't a play test, 2:24:23.440 --> 2:24:28.480 was with some family and they don't necessarily identify as 2:24:28.640 --> 2:24:33.360 leftists of any kind, but we had a really fun 2:24:34.080 --> 2:24:42.240 game where we explored ideas of deconstructing borders, and uh, 2:24:43.040 --> 2:24:46.080 you know, they were It wasn't like I was guiding 2:24:46.120 --> 2:24:47.560 them in this direction. It was just kind of the 2:24:47.640 --> 2:24:51.240 assumption of the game that there was utopia, got beyond 2:24:51.480 --> 2:24:55.880 this ingrained capitalist realism, that there just isn't that there 2:24:55.920 --> 2:24:58.520 isn't an alternative. And they're like, okay, well the game 2:24:58.560 --> 2:25:01.400 says we're already in utopia, so that means there's no 2:25:01.520 --> 2:25:04.160 private property. And I was like, whoa, that's a that's 2:25:04.200 --> 2:25:06.880 a jump I didn't expect from my from my family. 2:25:09.080 --> 2:25:12.760 One thing I'm interested in in terms of how it 2:25:12.879 --> 2:25:18.000 functions as a game is like balancing the actual more 2:25:18.400 --> 2:25:21.760 I don't know, fund based like role playing game elements 2:25:22.440 --> 2:25:27.680 with like it's kind of structure as a thought exercise, 2:25:27.720 --> 2:25:30.440 and like a world building game, like how how how 2:25:30.520 --> 2:25:32.280 do you approach trying to get a balance of like 2:25:33.120 --> 2:25:35.560 fun role playing as well as this type of like 2:25:35.720 --> 2:25:40.280 reverse world building. I was kind of I was still 2:25:40.400 --> 2:25:42.880 a little bit on the y A game in the 2:25:42.959 --> 2:25:47.520 first place question, but I'm also intrigued by the balancing 2:25:48.680 --> 2:25:53.800 fun and politics question. If you don't mind, I wanted 2:25:53.840 --> 2:25:56.400 to go back to the y A game for just 2:25:56.520 --> 2:25:59.840 a second, um, because I think maybe it will lead 2:25:59.879 --> 2:26:06.200 to this. Games are, you know, an ancient form of art. 2:26:06.240 --> 2:26:09.480 I know, I said we work in new media before, 2:26:09.680 --> 2:26:12.760 but games are actually an ancient form of art, and 2:26:12.959 --> 2:26:18.199 I would argue social practice. Um. There's a game called Senate. 2:26:18.600 --> 2:26:22.000 There's a game called The Royal Game of r which 2:26:22.120 --> 2:26:26.320 both date to five thousand years ago in ancient Egypt 2:26:26.400 --> 2:26:32.360 and ancient Mesopotamia, respectively. We did in making the game, 2:26:32.440 --> 2:26:34.240 we did a bunch of research on the history of 2:26:34.920 --> 2:26:39.280 of games. There's a fifteenth century game called the Game 2:26:39.320 --> 2:26:43.320 of the Goose from uh well, present day Italy that 2:26:43.560 --> 2:26:49.879 paired like these gorgeous illustrations, also with like didactic moral instruction. 2:26:50.760 --> 2:26:55.200 In the early early twentieth century, the Surrealists created a 2:26:55.320 --> 2:26:59.560 series of games UM with the intention of breaking through 2:27:00.200 --> 2:27:06.680 traditional thought patterns and unleashing the potentials of the unconscious. 2:27:07.240 --> 2:27:11.400 They also wanted to subvert academic modes of inquiry. UM. 2:27:11.520 --> 2:27:14.600 And then today, you know, some of our most popular 2:27:15.120 --> 2:27:18.640 table top games. You know, I think Nick was mentioning 2:27:18.680 --> 2:27:24.120 this earlier, how they can sometimes inscribe oppressive logics. So, 2:27:24.480 --> 2:27:28.360 you know, rather than a game where you're competing against 2:27:28.440 --> 2:27:31.680 other players to drive them into poverty, or a game 2:27:31.760 --> 2:27:37.840 where you're trying to colonize other players land, you know, 2:27:38.000 --> 2:27:40.960 for the purpose of world domination, we wanted to make 2:27:40.959 --> 2:27:48.680 a game that actually practices the cooperation, interdependence, care, consent, uh, 2:27:48.879 --> 2:27:50.520 these things that will be needed, you know, if we 2:27:50.720 --> 2:27:55.080 actually to transcend the social ecological crises of our day. 2:27:56.080 --> 2:27:57.840 And kind of to that point, you know, I would 2:27:57.879 --> 2:28:03.160 say that games always reflect the beliefs and norms of 2:28:03.240 --> 2:28:07.560 their historical context. So with Solar Punk Futures, we wanted 2:28:07.600 --> 2:28:12.280 to kind of flip the script and UM project using 2:28:12.520 --> 2:28:16.359 you know, the modalities of like speculative fiction, collaborative performance. 2:28:16.360 --> 2:28:21.720 As I mentioned, the values and more is of a 2:28:21.920 --> 2:28:26.959 of a desirable future. So games are are very human thing, 2:28:27.080 --> 2:28:31.560 an ancient human thing. And why do people play games? Uh? 2:28:32.800 --> 2:28:35.240 As I mentioned, you know, education is part of it 2:28:36.120 --> 2:28:39.800 um but also building social bonds is another important piece 2:28:39.879 --> 2:28:42.880 and that always is a company. It's a very like 2:28:42.959 --> 2:28:44.960 academic way of talking about it, maybe, but it is. 2:28:45.480 --> 2:28:47.119 It is fun. It has to be fun. That's why 2:28:47.200 --> 2:28:50.680 people do it. In terms of the To get a 2:28:50.720 --> 2:28:53.800 little deeper into the balancing question, you know, every game 2:28:53.920 --> 2:28:56.640 is a balance between a bunch of different competing factors. 2:28:56.760 --> 2:28:58.920 There's a lot of people who were talking about the 2:28:58.959 --> 2:29:04.360 balance between randomness and planning in in games, and the 2:29:04.440 --> 2:29:09.959 balance between structure and free form and it's definitely something 2:29:10.720 --> 2:29:13.280 if there's any game designers out there thinking about making, 2:29:13.600 --> 2:29:16.400 you know, games like this, play testing it will help 2:29:16.480 --> 2:29:20.840 you so much because you know, the game in a 2:29:21.000 --> 2:29:24.600 rough form existed in the spring of last year, but 2:29:25.040 --> 2:29:30.560 playtesting really helped us refine a lot of those questions 2:29:30.680 --> 2:29:36.000 and find that kind of balance between structure and freeformness. 2:29:36.160 --> 2:29:38.760 We wanted it to be accessible to people who aren't 2:29:39.040 --> 2:29:42.760 d n D players. But we've also played with people 2:29:42.800 --> 2:29:44.879 who play a lot of d n D and GM 2:29:44.959 --> 2:29:48.160 and all this stuff, and they took it in a 2:29:48.280 --> 2:29:50.600 lot of fun and wild directions that we didn't expect. 2:29:50.760 --> 2:29:53.760 That helped inform kind of new ways that we could. 2:29:54.440 --> 2:29:56.600 You know, we added some optional rules in there for 2:29:56.680 --> 2:29:59.520 people who want to take it in a different direction 2:29:59.760 --> 2:30:03.000 or or add more complexity, or or even or for 2:30:03.080 --> 2:30:05.560 other people who need a little bit like a handhold 2:30:05.600 --> 2:30:07.720 and want to flip a coin to decide something rather 2:30:07.800 --> 2:30:12.440 than um, you know, come up with it totally on 2:30:12.480 --> 2:30:16.920 their own. So I think, um, yeah, it's a hard 2:30:17.120 --> 2:30:20.240 it's a hard thing to balance, you know, all the 2:30:20.280 --> 2:30:23.119 different factors that go into a game. But I definitely 2:30:23.160 --> 2:30:25.920 think play testing and all the people who played with 2:30:26.080 --> 2:30:29.360 us in those early games really helped helped us figure 2:30:29.400 --> 2:30:33.840 out the right balance. And to your earlier point about burnout, 2:30:34.560 --> 2:30:39.680 like activists burnout, Um, some people who we've invited to 2:30:39.959 --> 2:30:46.440 play the game maybe have have expressed this idea of like, well, um, 2:30:46.840 --> 2:30:50.760 I'd love to, but I don't have time, and maybe 2:30:51.920 --> 2:30:56.880 maybe they they think of of gaming And I know 2:30:56.959 --> 2:31:00.440 I've certainly been guilty of this too, of feeling guilt 2:31:00.520 --> 2:31:03.240 over things that feel like it indulges like you should 2:31:03.240 --> 2:31:07.400 be doing the real work all the time. But you know, 2:31:07.560 --> 2:31:11.640 I think it's important to hold that in the perspective 2:31:11.840 --> 2:31:19.160 of the tradition of of feminism, civil rights advocates, others 2:31:19.200 --> 2:31:21.800 on the left that have talked about the importance of 2:31:22.959 --> 2:31:26.680 um joy that needs to be integral to our struggles. 2:31:26.720 --> 2:31:29.760 There's the famous I'm a Goldman quip. If I can't dance, 2:31:29.840 --> 2:31:34.400 it's not my revolution. So perhaps you know, these ideas 2:31:34.480 --> 2:31:37.840 of like guilt and shame or martyrdom or whatever need 2:31:37.959 --> 2:31:40.440 are kind of toxic parts of the old world that 2:31:40.600 --> 2:31:44.720 we need to to let go of. UM. So I 2:31:44.760 --> 2:31:47.120 guess this is kind of coming back to say that there's, 2:31:48.400 --> 2:31:50.520 as as Nick was saying, there is an ethical, pre 2:31:50.640 --> 2:31:55.480 figurative case of um of how games can allow people 2:31:55.560 --> 2:32:01.320 to um express themselves through play, but there's also a 2:32:01.600 --> 2:32:05.640 tactical one, and that games can be a structured way 2:32:05.720 --> 2:32:09.520 of thinking about how do we create a liberated society 2:32:10.400 --> 2:32:13.160 one everything I think is sort of interesting about. Well, like, 2:32:13.240 --> 2:32:17.920 I guess this is somewhat less true of tabletop games 2:32:18.959 --> 2:32:22.280 as in medium, because tapletop games are a lot of 2:32:22.760 --> 2:32:26.400 sort of cloudy storytelling is stuff. But like I know, 2:32:26.640 --> 2:32:29.320 like like so like I play a lot of video games, right, 2:32:29.320 --> 2:32:34.439 and it's like it's like a lot of the structure 2:32:34.879 --> 2:32:43.160 of what gaming is is sort of like it basically 2:32:43.160 --> 2:32:46.320 it turned into like another job that you have and 2:32:46.640 --> 2:32:50.080 it's interesting. Yeah, I mean, you know, and you you like, 2:32:50.120 --> 2:32:52.360 you get, you get the same you even get like 2:32:52.440 --> 2:32:56.160 bogo like crossover between the terminology of like like you know, 2:32:56.280 --> 2:33:01.480 like I think like grinding is like mind yeah, like mind. 2:33:01.920 --> 2:33:03.880 I think I think that came from gaming first and 2:33:03.959 --> 2:33:06.520 then moved over into the weird grindset stuff. But like 2:33:06.800 --> 2:33:10.560 I think you're right, yeah yeah, and gamification, right, that's 2:33:10.600 --> 2:33:15.120 another way that like gaming is being almost like weaponized 2:33:15.160 --> 2:33:17.760 by capitalism to get squeezed just a little bit more 2:33:17.840 --> 2:33:21.920 out of everyone. Yeah, there's there's a really interesting article 2:33:22.120 --> 2:33:29.760 whose name I am forgetting because I am yeah, I um, 2:33:30.440 --> 2:33:33.600 but Vicky Oustawal wrote it like a while ago that 2:33:33.720 --> 2:33:40.480 was about how like games are like it's you know, 2:33:40.560 --> 2:33:42.680 it's it's used sort of mechanically doing the same thing 2:33:42.760 --> 2:33:44.440 over and over and over again. But it's it's a 2:33:44.440 --> 2:33:47.720 problem because it's like it's it's labor that's like too perfect. 2:33:47.760 --> 2:33:49.520 I gues it doesn't create anything. There's no sort of 2:33:49.640 --> 2:33:54.080 like I like, there's there's no sort of like um 2:33:55.200 --> 2:33:58.760 like aspect that produces like value that could be extracted. 2:33:58.800 --> 2:34:00.120 You're just sort of you're just doing a thing and 2:34:00.240 --> 2:34:02.920 over again, and it's like and you know, and that 2:34:03.080 --> 2:34:04.920 then then that you know, becomes a problem for capital 2:34:04.959 --> 2:34:06.680 in some sense, is why there's all these panics about 2:34:06.680 --> 2:34:09.000 like everyone being addicted to gaming, because it's like, well, okay, 2:34:09.080 --> 2:34:12.400 you're not making money for us. But I think it's 2:34:12.520 --> 2:34:16.680 interesting truck simulator you could be driving some actual yeah, yeah, 2:34:18.120 --> 2:34:22.400 but you know, I think it's interesting that this is 2:34:22.440 --> 2:34:25.760 a political intervention into that of creating something that's you know, 2:34:25.920 --> 2:34:28.360 precisely the opposite of that that it's you know, you're 2:34:28.400 --> 2:34:31.400 not sort of like it's not just like an incredible 2:34:31.440 --> 2:34:35.120 intensification of the sort of like reward systems of working. 2:34:35.320 --> 2:34:37.720 It's hey, we're gonna come together and we're gonna tell 2:34:38.080 --> 2:34:41.640 we're gonna you know, make collaborative decisions and overcome challenges. 2:34:41.640 --> 2:34:43.280 And I think I think that's a very interesting sort 2:34:43.320 --> 2:34:48.000 of political angle to come at this from. Yeah, I 2:34:48.080 --> 2:34:52.720 think a lot of a lot of tabletop games in 2:34:52.800 --> 2:34:57.440 particular compared to video games. I think, well, I'll say 2:34:57.560 --> 2:35:00.520 role playing games in particular put you in a driver's 2:35:00.560 --> 2:35:04.879 seat in a way that I think can is is hard, right, 2:35:05.000 --> 2:35:07.840 Like sometimes I'm too tired to or if I think, 2:35:08.080 --> 2:35:09.720 you know, I have a I have a D and 2:35:09.800 --> 2:35:11.600 D night, and I'm like, I don't know if I 2:35:11.640 --> 2:35:14.600 have the energy for this after working all day. Um, 2:35:15.480 --> 2:35:18.520 whereas I might have energy to play you know, a 2:35:19.240 --> 2:35:21.680 video game RPG that kind of walks me, you know, 2:35:21.840 --> 2:35:24.920 handholds me through a story. Um, it's kind of more 2:35:25.000 --> 2:35:29.280 like watching more passive. Um. But I do think that 2:35:29.400 --> 2:35:40.400 there's I just think there's something so important about thinking 2:35:40.720 --> 2:35:44.960 through what it might be like to live in this 2:35:45.200 --> 2:35:50.440 utopian society. And it's important, I think because if we don't, well, 2:35:50.520 --> 2:35:52.800 for one, a ton of people just don't even think 2:35:52.840 --> 2:35:56.040 about it. Um. And so to the extent that this 2:35:56.200 --> 2:35:59.240 game is something that gets bought or played with families 2:35:59.240 --> 2:36:01.959 of people who are you know, one of the many 2:36:02.040 --> 2:36:05.640 people who have been de politicized in this country, UM, 2:36:06.000 --> 2:36:07.840 I think that can be really helpful. But I also 2:36:07.959 --> 2:36:13.400 think that um, I've played it, and I've found really 2:36:13.640 --> 2:36:17.360 fun and exciting ideas that I wouldn't have thought about 2:36:17.440 --> 2:36:20.080 if I was staring at a power map or something 2:36:20.200 --> 2:36:24.000 and thinking where can we intervene in my city too, 2:36:24.879 --> 2:36:28.520 you know, help help solve this or that problem. So 2:36:28.640 --> 2:36:31.840 I think, yeah, I think there's power there. So I think. 2:36:31.920 --> 2:36:33.840 One of the other things I think is interesting to 2:36:33.920 --> 2:36:36.840 me about how you Tube sort of the team put 2:36:36.879 --> 2:36:38.560 this project together is And it's also like you know, 2:36:38.600 --> 2:36:40.240 so like you can buy the versions of it that 2:36:40.320 --> 2:36:43.040 have like very very nice art, but you also just 2:36:43.200 --> 2:36:45.160 put the cards and the rules up for free and 2:36:45.160 --> 2:36:47.080 you can just sort of print and play it. So owner, yeah, 2:36:47.080 --> 2:36:48.600 if you could talk a bit about decision you do 2:36:48.760 --> 2:36:53.600 that democratic accessibility is really important to us. It's part 2:36:53.640 --> 2:36:57.680 of the concept that we wanted to integrate into every 2:36:57.800 --> 2:37:02.400 aspect of the game's production and distribution. And so yeah, 2:37:02.480 --> 2:37:06.120 the whole thing is available as a free print and 2:37:06.200 --> 2:37:11.400 play PDF download. UM. It's all Creative Commons licensed UM. 2:37:12.800 --> 2:37:15.720 So that's yeah. And you know, at the same time, 2:37:15.800 --> 2:37:21.320 as you mentioned, we we uh are interested in materiality 2:37:22.000 --> 2:37:28.240 and want wanted to create, um something that could could 2:37:28.240 --> 2:37:31.520 accompany you know, a face to face interaction as well, 2:37:31.600 --> 2:37:34.560 which is you know, frankly, well, I'll just speak for myself. 2:37:34.640 --> 2:37:38.160 That's probably more my interest. Um, even though I think 2:37:38.320 --> 2:37:41.480 you know like that we have a tabletop simulator version two, 2:37:41.480 --> 2:37:44.320 which I think is really cool. But as far as 2:37:44.400 --> 2:37:49.280 the decision to make the game, you know, free, free forever. Um, 2:37:49.760 --> 2:37:51.480 we want people to play, We want it to be 2:37:51.800 --> 2:37:56.440 genuinely useful. Um. This is not a this is not 2:37:56.560 --> 2:38:00.880 a capitalistic business venture. We're running a break even budget 2:38:01.000 --> 2:38:04.520 and want to just keep doing projects and you know, 2:38:04.640 --> 2:38:09.080 elaborating like the solar punk tradition and connecting it to social, ecological, 2:38:09.160 --> 2:38:13.840 communalist politics. So if this can be a catalyst towards 2:38:14.040 --> 2:38:18.720 being able to do more of that, then um, then 2:38:18.879 --> 2:38:21.800 that's you know, we'll have we'll have succeeded on our 2:38:21.879 --> 2:38:24.800 on our terms at least. What's the set us of 2:38:25.120 --> 2:38:28.040 physical copies of how can people if they want to 2:38:28.240 --> 2:38:33.000 use cards and stuff? What is how how would one 2:38:33.120 --> 2:38:35.600 go about getting those? Yeah, so there's a couple of 2:38:35.600 --> 2:38:39.640 different ways people can download the free print and play 2:38:39.640 --> 2:38:42.280 if they like. If they really love it, they want 2:38:42.280 --> 2:38:45.680 to buy the physical copy. We sold out of the 2:38:45.959 --> 2:38:49.120 kind of first edition that we were able to afford 2:38:49.280 --> 2:38:53.000 to print. But we're raising money on Kickstarter for a 2:38:53.040 --> 2:38:56.800 second edition. So if people back us at a certain 2:38:56.840 --> 2:39:00.440 tier there, I think it's forty five dollars or higher. Uh, 2:39:00.720 --> 2:39:03.040 you get a copy of the game when we're able 2:39:03.080 --> 2:39:06.800 to print them. Uh and so yeah, so it's a 2:39:07.720 --> 2:39:10.480 um and of course, as Max mentioned, you can also 2:39:10.520 --> 2:39:15.199 play on tabletop simulator. But yeah, we're we're really excited 2:39:15.240 --> 2:39:18.600 about it. I think we're also hoping to take it 2:39:18.720 --> 2:39:24.160 around to some you know, political workshops, probably on Zoom 2:39:24.240 --> 2:39:29.640 for the foreseeable future, get maybe game convention, tabletop game 2:39:29.680 --> 2:39:34.119 conventions and stuff, and also some art art shows um 2:39:34.600 --> 2:39:38.040 to be announced, to be announced, but there's a couple 2:39:38.080 --> 2:39:40.880 of art shows that we're excited to be showing it in. 2:39:41.080 --> 2:39:45.520 So um yeah. Yeah. One one thing I'm really excited 2:39:45.520 --> 2:39:48.800 about in terms of playing this at some point is 2:39:49.080 --> 2:39:54.959 the I think starting from the point of like you're 2:39:55.040 --> 2:39:59.160 trying to build the world now, you can really easy, 2:39:59.440 --> 2:40:03.240 it's really easy to run into ruts um starting at 2:40:03.280 --> 2:40:07.080 the end point than working backwards, I think because that 2:40:07.320 --> 2:40:11.040 produces that reverse type of thought. I think it's a 2:40:11.120 --> 2:40:14.720 little bit easier for to find the path than just 2:40:14.920 --> 2:40:17.000 starting here and looking at the world to be like oh, 2:40:17.440 --> 2:40:20.760 how do we do anything to make it better? Instead 2:40:20.760 --> 2:40:22.880 of being at the opposite place and being like, what's 2:40:23.000 --> 2:40:26.720 what is the way to backtrack? I think can maybe 2:40:26.760 --> 2:40:29.920 give you some connections and ideas that you may not 2:40:30.040 --> 2:40:34.320 have had otherwise because we're kind of always stuck in 2:40:34.360 --> 2:40:37.880 the now. How do we get now better? So I 2:40:38.200 --> 2:40:41.640 would be very excited to uh try try this out 2:40:41.800 --> 2:40:47.000 at some point and uh and experience that backtrack thinking, 2:40:47.200 --> 2:40:51.040 because I think it's a Yeah, I'm really intrigued with 2:40:51.080 --> 2:40:53.600 that specific aspect of the game because yeah, I'm sure 2:40:53.600 --> 2:40:55.200 there's gonna be a lot of solar punk games within 2:40:55.240 --> 2:40:58.800 the next decade probably, um, and this is one aspect 2:40:58.840 --> 2:41:01.160 that I think actually is unique and something that's not 2:41:01.320 --> 2:41:04.720 just intrinsic to sell their punk um, you know, it's 2:41:04.760 --> 2:41:08.480 something that's kind of been added on. So uh, that's 2:41:08.480 --> 2:41:12.000 something I'm really excited about. And yeah, I would love 2:41:12.040 --> 2:41:17.560 to love to pick this up uh soon. Yeah, thank 2:41:17.560 --> 2:41:19.920 you for saying that. Um. I think one of the 2:41:20.000 --> 2:41:24.720 things that we hope that the game does is help 2:41:24.760 --> 2:41:29.000 people break through that capitalist realism. Yeah, Like there is 2:41:29.040 --> 2:41:31.320 no alternative. It's easier to imagine the end of the 2:41:31.360 --> 2:41:35.880 world than the end of capitalism, etcetera. UM. And you know, similarly, 2:41:36.120 --> 2:41:39.600 if you ask people to imagine the future, uh, it's 2:41:39.720 --> 2:41:43.320 very hard and uh and if they are able to 2:41:43.640 --> 2:41:48.160 at all, it is often extrapolating sort of the worst 2:41:48.240 --> 2:41:53.840 trends of today into a dystopian future. Yeah, I remember slightly. 2:41:53.879 --> 2:41:55.960 I remember so when when I was in I was 2:41:56.000 --> 2:41:57.960 in middle school or something, we had this acietm where 2:41:57.959 --> 2:42:00.040 we had to like write a you like, right, what 2:42:00.120 --> 2:42:03.080 are perfect like utopian society would be? And we like 2:42:03.240 --> 2:42:05.920 did it, and like three quarters of the like society 2:42:06.000 --> 2:42:08.880 people come up with were just like the worst imaginable 2:42:08.959 --> 2:42:14.120 dystopia and it was just like, it's just really grim certific. Yeah, 2:42:14.160 --> 2:42:16.480 if I was gonna if I was gonna make what 2:42:16.640 --> 2:42:19.800 I thought was an accurate prediction of the future, it 2:42:20.959 --> 2:42:24.040 might be more similar to the first season of this 2:42:24.160 --> 2:42:30.119 podcast than uh, some of the hopeful futures. But I don't. 2:42:30.200 --> 2:42:32.440 I also don't think. I don't think the door is 2:42:32.520 --> 2:42:36.200 closed on any kind of solar punk future. I think 2:42:36.240 --> 2:42:38.560 it's important. One of the important aspects that we included 2:42:38.720 --> 2:42:42.040 that that is that makes solar punk different than just 2:42:42.760 --> 2:42:47.280 kind of vague utopianism is that we think we asked 2:42:47.280 --> 2:42:49.520 people to also think about the barriers they run into, 2:42:50.040 --> 2:42:52.960 to think about, you know what, who's gonna who's gonna 2:42:53.000 --> 2:42:59.800 oppose you if you're trying to um, you know, deal 2:42:59.840 --> 2:43:06.200 with polluted water and you find some really great system 2:43:06.360 --> 2:43:10.120 and improve a region's water supply. You know, Nestley might 2:43:10.160 --> 2:43:12.760 come in and buy the rights to the whole region, 2:43:12.959 --> 2:43:17.080 the whole watershed. So you know, imagining those that opposition, 2:43:17.440 --> 2:43:23.040 the material conditions that might change, and how you adapt 2:43:23.080 --> 2:43:26.240 to them. We hope that's something that people also benefit 2:43:26.320 --> 2:43:32.680 from who played this game and and make some predictions 2:43:32.760 --> 2:43:35.959 about the strategic decisions that capital is going to make 2:43:36.040 --> 2:43:40.080 to oppose your your utopian vision. And I hope there 2:43:40.120 --> 2:43:43.520 are more solar punk games, Like you said, I hope 2:43:43.520 --> 2:43:47.160 there's a preponderance of solar punk art in the in 2:43:47.240 --> 2:43:49.800 the next decade. That would be amazing. And you know, 2:43:50.240 --> 2:43:52.600 to what you were just saying, you're right, solar punk 2:43:52.640 --> 2:43:56.160 doesn't mean the end of politics, doesn't mean the absence 2:43:56.200 --> 2:44:00.440 of conflict. Um. So I think we tried to integrate 2:44:00.520 --> 2:44:04.040 that into the game. What makes a good solar punk 2:44:04.120 --> 2:44:10.800 stories that it is plausible yet distinctly anti utopian, anti dystopian, 2:44:10.920 --> 2:44:16.600 rather um it you know, provides a glimpse into a 2:44:16.760 --> 2:44:23.360 future possibility for say, the reharmonization of humans with other humans, 2:44:23.480 --> 2:44:28.360 humans with non human nature. Um and that is going 2:44:28.480 --> 2:44:33.000 to involve some amount of opposition on the one hand 2:44:33.080 --> 2:44:37.800 and reconstruction on the other. In short to to critique 2:44:37.800 --> 2:44:42.360 by building as the slogan goes, all right, yeah, plugs time, 2:44:42.520 --> 2:44:46.440 what do you what do you need to have plugs? Uh? So, Yeah, 2:44:46.480 --> 2:44:49.920 we have an upcoming live stream on Twitch with Veterans 2:44:50.000 --> 2:44:52.920 for Peace. They have some gamers for Peace and Tuesday 2:44:53.080 --> 2:44:56.879 night at eight p m they're gonna be playing solar 2:44:56.959 --> 2:45:00.360 Punk solar Punk Features with us. Uh. If people are 2:45:00.360 --> 2:45:03.680 interested in the game, they can download it for print 2:45:03.760 --> 2:45:06.040 and play on our website at h T T P 2:45:06.720 --> 2:45:12.600 colon slash Slash the Future dot WTF uh and uh. 2:45:13.280 --> 2:45:15.960 People can also find a link to our kickstarter on 2:45:16.000 --> 2:45:20.040 that website if they're interested in pre ordering physical copy, 2:45:20.400 --> 2:45:23.920 which we very much appreciate. We're getting close to funded. 2:45:26.640 --> 2:45:28.680 That's very exciting. I hope, I hope, I hope it 2:45:28.680 --> 2:45:30.360 gets fund and I want to see more of these 2:45:30.480 --> 2:45:35.760 because the art is extremely cool. And yeah, well, thank 2:45:35.800 --> 2:45:38.200 you to you for coming on this has been It 2:45:38.200 --> 2:45:41.640 could Happen here, and we'll see you the next time 2:45:41.760 --> 2:45:44.840 an episode goes up. I don't know when that's gonna 2:45:44.840 --> 2:46:01.160 be right now, So yeah, wonderful extros. Hey, We'll be 2:46:01.200 --> 2:46:04.560 back Monday with more episodes every week from now until 2:46:04.600 --> 2:46:07.240 the heat death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here 2:46:07.320 --> 2:46:09.959 is a production of cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts 2:46:09.959 --> 2:46:12.520 from cool zone Media, visit our website cool zone media 2:46:12.600 --> 2:46:14.400 dot com, or check us out on the I Heart 2:46:14.480 --> 2:46:17.440 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:46:18.080 --> 2:46:20.160 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 2:46:20.280 --> 2:46:23.720 monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks 2:46:23.760 --> 2:46:24.240 for listening.