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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome to It could happen

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Speaker 1: here a podcast about things falling apart, and today it's

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Speaker 1: it's there. There's there's a little bit of getting put

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Speaker 1: back together, but today's mostly them falling apart. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Christopher Wong. With me, I have Lucy who is a

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Speaker 1: teacher in Chicogo public schools and as part of the

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Speaker 1: Teachers Union, and today we're going to be talking about

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Speaker 1: just the absolute shit show that is being inflicted on

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Speaker 1: teachers and students in public schools. And Lucy, how how

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Speaker 1: are you? How are you doing? Um? You know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's been kind of weird, but all in all, I'm

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Speaker 1: in good spirits. I think my sisters and brothers and

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Speaker 1: CTU are in good spirits. So we're going to keep

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Speaker 1: fighting the good fight. Hell yeah. So before before we

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Speaker 1: fully start to get into the teachers Union and Lord

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Speaker 1: Lightfoot's foory, I want to sort of get a bit

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Speaker 1: of context for people who don't live in Chicago or

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Speaker 1: just don't know much about the only politics because LORI,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you read sort of like media accounts

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Speaker 1: of this, like you you, you you may be sort

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Speaker 1: of misled into into thinking that there's like even some

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Speaker 1: semblance of good faith going on here from Loyd Lightfoot,

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Speaker 1: And like, I just I just want to like do

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Speaker 1: a great like a Lord Lightfoot Greatest hits real for

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Speaker 1: a second. So Lightfoot, like immediately after she got elected,

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Speaker 1: like the like the first thing she does is she starts,

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Speaker 1: she's she literally she's like, Okay, there's too much crime

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Speaker 1: on the subway. We're gonna put swat teams on them.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, you just be on the red

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Speaker 1: lane and there's a wat team and you know, because

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Speaker 1: again this is what happens when you put a swat

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Speaker 1: team on the fucking subway. They immediately shown a dude

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Speaker 1: in the back for nothing, literally no reason. They shot

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Speaker 1: him in the back. Um So that that was like

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Speaker 1: that was like like the first like few weeks of

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Speaker 1: lightfoot and then during the uprising, she like she she

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Speaker 1: turned the rich part of Chicago and she like a

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Speaker 1: medieval castle like she like like like raised all the

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Speaker 1: drawbridges into the middle of the city so that no

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Speaker 1: one could get into the central part of the city.

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Speaker 1: It was like awful. And then you know, then as

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Speaker 1: as as we sort of like there there's more and

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Speaker 1: more sort of bad lightfoot stuff. Most recently so Chicago

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Speaker 1: got a bunch of aid money from the federal government

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Speaker 1: and she spent two and one million dollars of it

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Speaker 1: paying the police, not the schools. Yeah, nope. And CPD

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Speaker 1: like these again I think I talked about this before,

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Speaker 1: but like when when the CIA was like our initial

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Speaker 1: torturing program failed, where do we go to like find

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Speaker 1: people who know how to torture? They brought into Chicago

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Speaker 1: Police Detective like and you know, and this is the

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Speaker 1: the CPD. Like there's there's two have a CPD. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's there's like the torture CPD. And then related to them,

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Speaker 1: but not necessarily identical is the part of the CPD

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Speaker 1: that's just a cartel. Like there there was there was

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Speaker 1: a thing in at the beginning of the tens were

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Speaker 1: like it turned out that like the almost like the

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Speaker 1: huge parts of the CPD were literally just a cartel.

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Speaker 1: They're running drugs. They were just like doing shakedowns for

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Speaker 1: and and like one person total, like you got arrested

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Speaker 1: by the FBI four and everyone else is just still there.

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Speaker 1: It's great, it's a it's a time. So that this

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Speaker 1: is this is who Lorily Lightfoot is. Um, she sucks.

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Speaker 1: Like everyone hates her like her. The people who should

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Speaker 1: be her political allies hate her. Like Chicago Chargo got

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Speaker 1: like a police reform bill, and the reason it was

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Speaker 1: like a very mild one, but the reason it happened

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Speaker 1: was just that like like the like the Alderman passed

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Speaker 1: it out of just pure spite because of how much

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Speaker 1: they don't like Lightfoot. So this is this is the

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Speaker 1: this has been my Christopher shouts that led Lightfoot instruted this.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, needless to say, Lightfoot not acting in good faith.

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Speaker 1: Just absolutely Yeah, an villain's incredible. No, actually that's not

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Speaker 1: fair because a lot of Batman villains are kind of right. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's she's, she's she's she's like the nightmare refusion of

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Speaker 1: like batman and a Batman villain, like what if what

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Speaker 1: do you think the worst aspects of booth and then

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Speaker 1: made them the mayor. It's it's a yeah, I've been

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Speaker 1: kind of um so, I moved here almost a year

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Speaker 1: ago from a smaller city, and I did not like

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Speaker 1: the mayor in my city, and he really was a

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Speaker 1: big fan of like the Lory lay Put playbook. But um,

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Speaker 1: I guess people weren't as politically involved there. And my

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Speaker 1: first week working in Chicago public schools, um, somebody mentioned

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Speaker 1: the mayor mentioned Laurie, and everybody kind of groaned, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, you don't like her, you don't

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Speaker 1: like you're theyre And I mean I knew they didn't,

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Speaker 1: but I was just kind of testing the waters. And

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Speaker 1: this lady looks at me and goes, we hate her.

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Speaker 1: I swear, like, if you mentioned her name in this city,

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Speaker 1: people practically spit on the ground. It's like it's amazing

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Speaker 1: because like men demon Yeah, it's like like Chogo dotoriously

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Speaker 1: we all hate her. Politicians but like Lightfoot like like that,

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Speaker 1: there were you would find rama Manuel supporters right, Like

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Speaker 1: I don't know a single lord like outside of the

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Speaker 1: schools within the schools, everyone I know, like even even

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Speaker 1: the even the cops don't like her, Like she keeps

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Speaker 1: funneling hundreds of billions of dollars in them and they

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Speaker 1: still don't like her. It's like, it's incredible. How do

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Speaker 1: you unite the teachers union and the police union. One

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Speaker 1: something that's the only thing that they've ever agreed on

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Speaker 1: is fuck Lory Lightfoot. It's really incredible. So Lifefoot's latest scheme, Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: do you want to explain? I guess go back a

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Speaker 1: little bit in in into the history of sort of

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Speaker 1: how how Chicago and Chicago Public schools have kind of

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Speaker 1: been responding to COVID and then how they just did

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and yeah, I guess, like, yeah, give us

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Speaker 1: a background, like what's going on right now? Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to preface with two things. One, I am fairly

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Speaker 1: new here, so I don't know all of the details.

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Speaker 1: And two, I really want to emphasize that I'm just

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Speaker 1: here talking for myself. I don't represent CTU in any way.

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Speaker 1: This is just I wanted to talk about my feelings

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Speaker 1: on things. So, um, what I do know is they

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Speaker 1: were doing remote learning and when I arrived here in March,

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Speaker 1: we were fully remote and UM. Then in the fourth

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Speaker 1: marketing period, so like around like after spring break, UM,

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Speaker 1: we moved to a hybrid at all, so we had

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Speaker 1: parents and kids could like choose if they wanted to

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Speaker 1: stay online or if they wanted to be in person. UM.

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Speaker 1: I think like sixty percent or more depending on what

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Speaker 1: school UM chose the online option. Like a lot of

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Speaker 1: parents just were not comfortable putting their kids in UM.

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Speaker 1: I know that there's been like a ton of talk

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Speaker 1: about UM, you know, like the most economically disadvantaged families

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Speaker 1: need the schools open, But it's kind of been the reverse.

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Speaker 1: It's been the people who have UM more means are

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Speaker 1: more interested in opening, and people who UH are less

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Speaker 1: well off are a little more resistant to it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's not the same across the board. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to generalize too much, but that's been what I've seen UM.

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Speaker 1: I think, if I had to guess it, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of history behind that. Like UM, I mean, first

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Speaker 1: of all, just can your family afford an illness like this?

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Speaker 1: And people living in multi general generational households. And I

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Speaker 1: think something that CPS and our government in general really

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Speaker 1: fail to acknowledge is just how how much mistrust there

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Speaker 1: is between government institutions, public schools, and UM people of color,

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Speaker 1: and for good reason. You know, they have been repeatedly

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Speaker 1: just screwed over by these institutions. And I can absolutely

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Speaker 1: understand why they might not trust a school district that says, hey,

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Speaker 1: we'll keep your kids safe, because they weren't doing it

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Speaker 1: before the pandemic. UM. So we had I had like

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Speaker 1: seven kids in one of my classes, and like ten

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Speaker 1: and another and then the rest of them were online.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like sitting at a computer teaching to the

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Speaker 1: kids online and to the kids in their room. All

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Speaker 1: the kids in the room are on their computers too,

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Speaker 1: so that we can like still be like one cohesive class. UM.

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Speaker 1: It was hard, and it was like kind of like

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Speaker 1: mentally fatiguing, like just going back and forth like that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we made it work. I was kind

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Speaker 1: of I was really proud of us, Like we made

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Speaker 1: it work. We made it happen. We stayed in contact

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Speaker 1: with the families and the kids constantly, UM, and like

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Speaker 1: as things moved on and as numbers started going down,

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Speaker 1: more people started warning their kids back UM. And then

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Speaker 1: after spring break they UM well, so like after springbreak,

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Speaker 1: they let people come back, and then as we moved

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Speaker 1: towards on our more and more kids were coming back.

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Speaker 1: Which it was the school I was in was UM

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Speaker 1: handling it very well. Our principle was really committed to

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Speaker 1: like keeping us safe. So there was UM testing, like

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Speaker 1: once a week somebody would come back and be like, yo,

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Speaker 1: go get your COVID test. UM. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: kids were being tested, but I know teachers were. UM.

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Speaker 1: Then summer happens. I ended up in a different school

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Speaker 1: in the Austin neighborhood, which is UM a lot less

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Speaker 1: advantage than the one that I had been working in,

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Speaker 1: and we open back up fully in person no remote

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Speaker 1: option like at all, like UM. The only people who

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Speaker 1: could get remote were kids that were deemed medically fragile,

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Speaker 1: but they had to one submit like tons of paperwork

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Speaker 1: to prove that and to their siblings could not stay removed.

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Speaker 1: So at that point it's like, why, what's the point.

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Speaker 1: And if you were a teacher who had a medically

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Speaker 1: fragile child in the schools, your kid could be remote,

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Speaker 1: but you couldn't, So then you know, how is that

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Speaker 1: going to work? UM? And I found in the school

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Speaker 1: where I was. You know, this is the issue with

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Speaker 1: Chicago and with you know, most of the country is

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Speaker 1: some schools have more resources than others, and the school

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Speaker 1: I didn't know where to get tested. Nobody like told me.

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Speaker 1: I think there was some kind of testing program, not sure,

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Speaker 1: definitely nothing for students UM. I've since moved to a

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Speaker 1: high school that has more resources, but still I have

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Speaker 1: not been able to figure out where the hectic at testing.

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Speaker 1: Which has been one of the biggest things that uh

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Speaker 1: CTU is asking for is we want um opt out

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Speaker 1: testing instead of opt in testing, so you would automatically

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Speaker 1: be registered to test, and if you didn't want to test,

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Speaker 1: then you would have to opt out, which would end

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Speaker 1: up with far more people getting tested and make it

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Speaker 1: a lot easier because a big part of why people

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Speaker 1: are in signing up is it's really hard, like I

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Speaker 1: don't know where to find it. That everyone's like, it's

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Speaker 1: in your emails somewhere. I've searched my email. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Like we get like emails a day like yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's yeah, Like you know, I think anyone anyone who

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Speaker 1: remembers what being in a school is like those they have,

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Speaker 1: I mean, just the absolute worst bureaucratic stuff like it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's like honestly like it like my experiences

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Speaker 1: with like academia and like back in the high school,

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Speaker 1: like their tech stuff was like worse than corporate sex stuff,

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Speaker 1: which is like astounding. Mm hmm, it's it's ridiculous. Do

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Speaker 1: you want to jump into here into Lightfoot's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: Lightfoot has like invented a new kind of COVID denialism,

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Speaker 1: which is like she she's now turned into like a

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Speaker 1: COVID test denihilist, like it's incredible, like she she she has.

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Speaker 1: She went on this rant about how like COVID testing

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Speaker 1: is a quote quasi medical procedure and how you're gonna

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Speaker 1: get lost, like it's it's bizarre. So this this journalist

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Speaker 1: asked her about the testing because and I don't know

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Speaker 1: which journalist that was, but I want to thank them

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Speaker 1: so much because they have seen a lot of the

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Speaker 1: reporters are actually out there trying to keep c t

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Speaker 1: use demands in the conversation as opposed to this like

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Speaker 1: whole oh lazy teachers don't want to work like off,

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Speaker 1: we do want to be working. Um. But so I

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Speaker 1: almost thought that she had like mixed up with this

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Speaker 1: person said and thought that they were talking about vaccines.

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Speaker 1: But even so, like stop it, stop, just stop doing that.

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Speaker 1: But who is having a reaction to a COVID test?

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Speaker 1: It is like literally a cute tip, like like you

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Speaker 1: just stick They don't even stick it that far up

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Speaker 1: your nose anymore. They just do a little in your

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Speaker 1: nostril or like a mouth smile. Yeah. Like actually, like

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Speaker 1: as someone who had like like I genuinely did have

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Speaker 1: a kind of bad reaction because the guy jabbed it

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Speaker 1: up really far and like I was like sneezing a

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Speaker 1: lot afterwards. But it's like what, oh, no, you sneezed

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Speaker 1: a little bit, Like what what does it even mean?

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Speaker 1: Like not like I feel like people are acting like

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Speaker 1: this test is like this weird new technology. It is.

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Speaker 1: It isn't like right before the pandemic, like a couple

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Speaker 1: of months before I had the flu and I had

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Speaker 1: exactly the same kind of test. They stuck a thing

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Speaker 1: up my nose. It was hella uncomfortable. Um it took

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Speaker 1: like two seconds. They stuck it on a little plastic thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm a bob and said, oh, looks like you have

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Speaker 1: the flu. Yeah, it's I don't know where this is

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Speaker 1: coming from. I think it's just she is not a

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Speaker 1: very charismatic person and she's not someone who does well

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Speaker 1: under pressure. And right now she's back into a corner

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Speaker 1: and she's acting out and it's been kind of wild,

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Speaker 1: like I've seen she's she's also throwing other people around

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Speaker 1: her under the bus. Yeah, Like she says something about

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Speaker 1: Pedro Martinez, Like she says, the teachers aren't in charge

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Speaker 1: of this. Paedro Martinez is in charge. She's the CEO.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay, so you're being this is setting

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Speaker 1: him up to take the blame on this everything that

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Speaker 1: you tweeted about like it was. She was like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it's actually the mayor's and not sorry, it's it's actually

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Speaker 1: the Uh, it's the principles. Responsive to the principles were

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Speaker 1: like no, yeah, CPS is kind of interesting. Um, this

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Speaker 1: can be really good or really bad depending on what

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Speaker 1: school here put. The principles really have a lot of

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Speaker 1: autonomy over their school. Um. I have now been in

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Speaker 1: two schools where that's worked out great. My principal rocks. Um.

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Speaker 1: If she ever hears this, I hope she knows that

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Speaker 1: I said that. I think she's great. Um. Also, the

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Speaker 1: principle I worked at the beginning of school year was awful.

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Speaker 1: Um so, but when it comes to like district wide protocols,

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Speaker 1: like that's district wide. And so CPS apparently had a

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Speaker 1: meeting with principles where um, I heard some rumors about

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Speaker 1: this too, but I also saw that letter that they

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Speaker 1: had posted. Um. The principles are one really frustrated because

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Speaker 1: CPS isn't communicating stuff with them very effectively, and so

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Speaker 1: parents will be calling like do we have school tomorrow

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Speaker 1: and they don't know, but CTU knows and it's telling

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Speaker 1: their members. So the teachers all know the like more

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Speaker 1: answers than the principles do, which is obviously really embarrassing

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Speaker 1: if you're supposed to be in charge. Um. And then

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Speaker 1: there they were told in this meeting with CPS, school's

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Speaker 1: gonna be closed on Friday. Okay, school's closed on Friday. Great,

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Speaker 1: sounds good. And then Lightfoot gets on the dang news

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Speaker 1: and tells everybody that it will be done on a

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Speaker 1: school by school basis at principles discretion, depending on if

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Speaker 1: they have staff. So now all of these principles, who

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Speaker 1: had already told their students and families that um we're

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Speaker 1: closing look like they're the ones who closed it as opposed,

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Speaker 1: like and that's it is rare for me to feel

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Speaker 1: bad for a school principle because that's my boss. You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I feel bad for them right now.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. Like you're just trying to like make

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Speaker 1: sure that people have the information they need in a

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Speaker 1: timely manner, and this lady is up here making you

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Speaker 1: look like a monster. It's so unfair. Yeah, should we

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Speaker 1: talk about what's been happening and we were up to

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Speaker 1: the past sort of winter break and then the stuff

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Speaker 1: that's happening now because it's very grim and bad. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of schools have been having COVID cases. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's I'm not really sure what's going on with cps

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Speaker 1: IS data. It kind of seems like they're not reporting

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Speaker 1: it very faithfully or accurately. Like if you look at

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Speaker 1: their tracker, they'll be cases and then suddenly they'll be gone. Um,

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Speaker 1: we never really get a hard number ever, Like will

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Speaker 1: be like if you have a student in your class

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Speaker 1: who has been quarantined and we all know what it is,

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Speaker 1: but they don't say it, they'll be like, um, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: Johnny will be out for the next X amount of

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Speaker 1: time due to health reasons, please let him join via

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Speaker 1: Google Meet. And they never do. That's the other annoying

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Speaker 1: thing is like the students I think because they are

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Speaker 1: either close contact or they're sick, um you know, to them,

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Speaker 1: it's like a a break almost like they're not going

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Speaker 1: to log in randomly. Like it's it's just with I

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Speaker 1: think with kids, like once it stops being consistent and

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Speaker 1: it's like back and forth all the time, it becomes

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Speaker 1: very difficult for them to stay motivated because they're out

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Speaker 1: of their routine. Like I I sometimes hate it when

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Speaker 1: people say this, but it is kind of true. Kids

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Speaker 1: kind of thrive on routine. Um. So at this point

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Speaker 1: now I have like a third of my class at

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Speaker 1: any given moment will just not be there and it

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Speaker 1: will be different third of the class every you know,

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Speaker 1: it kind of like rolls through. So all of my

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Speaker 1: students are like different points in the curriculum. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to like know what to teach each day because I

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Speaker 1: don't know who needs what. It's hard to reach out

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Speaker 1: to the kids that are at home and make sure

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Speaker 1: that they get what they need. Because I'm so busy

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Speaker 1: trying to catch these kids up and move these kids

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Speaker 1: on and all that stuff. UM, which I have seen

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Speaker 1: some research. I'll see if I can find it. UM

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Speaker 1: after we're done that like pointed out that like remote

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Speaker 1: learning isn't the worst thing that can happen. The worst

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Speaker 1: thing that can happen is just flipping back and forth

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Speaker 1: all the time and having huge numbers of kids absent

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Speaker 1: from in person learning. UM. So we go on break

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Speaker 1: and obviously we have O macron like sweeping through the

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Speaker 1: country and we all knew that they were going to

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Speaker 1: be spikes, Like we knew that in Chicago had what

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Speaker 1: was I Illinois had some like astronomically high number of

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Speaker 1: new COVID cases, like breaking records all over the place.

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Speaker 1: UM CPS has had huge increases. Yesterday we had forty

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Speaker 1: three four cases in Illinois. It's that's a lot. Like yeah,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, So overbreak, like the last like the Union

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Speaker 1: had been trying has been trying forever to get CPS

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Speaker 1: two come in and agree to UM a few things.

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Speaker 1: So one in February we had a um an agreement

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Speaker 1: that schools would flip to remote if they reached a

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Speaker 1: certain threshold that agreement has expired and CPS has refused

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Speaker 1: to come to the bargaining table and negotiate a new one.

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Speaker 1: They're just like, no, we don't need it. We also

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Speaker 1: have been trying to get them to do the opt

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Speaker 1: out testing and a like surveillance testing program in school

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Speaker 1: so we can kind of just have little bits of

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Speaker 1: data to understand like where are these cases. CPS doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to do this. They don't want a threshold for

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Speaker 1: flipping to remote because then they would have to flip

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Speaker 1: to remote, And they don't want the surveillance testing because

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Speaker 1: then they would have to flip to remote, and they

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Speaker 1: just don't want to flip to remote. Um. So finally

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Speaker 1: over break, you know, it kind of came to a

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Speaker 1: head like they were still refusing to negotiate, like um,

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Speaker 1: one of the union delegates in my building said something about, um,

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Speaker 1: they've been meeting. They go to these meetings like you know,

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Speaker 1: like twice a week. They try to get these meetings

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Speaker 1: to happen, and the mayor never comes and the CEO

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Speaker 1: never comes, like they will either send lawyers or they

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Speaker 1: don't show up. And it's like, dude, sounded so tired

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Speaker 1: into moralized when he said that, I felt bad for him. Um,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, So we voted that we were going to

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Speaker 1: go in on Monday and Tuesday meet with our safety committees,

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Speaker 1: get a feel for what's going on in school, and

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Speaker 1: then we are going to have a vote on Tuesday

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Speaker 1: night as to whether or not we will do a

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Speaker 1: remote work action on Wednesday. And I know a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have been like trying to make it sound

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Speaker 1: like this was very sudden, but it absolutely wasn't. Like

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Speaker 1: we had a vote about whether or not we were

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Speaker 1: interested in doing this, and then we had a vote

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Speaker 1: on whether we're still interested on having a vote, and

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Speaker 1: then we had the vote and the delicates voted on

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Speaker 1: if they wanted to hold an official like should we

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Speaker 1: do an action vote? We did. Um, it was like

385
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 1: seventy voted yes. Um. There were some complaints that some

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Speaker 1: people didn't get their ballots, but they did wait till

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Speaker 1: they had enough yes votes to preach that to third

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Speaker 1: majority that we needed. So, you know, CT, you has

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Speaker 1: every step of the way really been making sure, Um,

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Speaker 1: this is actually what we want. This isn't just like

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Speaker 1: unilateral things like Lorie keeps throwing that work unilateral around

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Speaker 1: it wasn't unilateral. It was like at least two there's

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Speaker 1: the teachers in this district said I don't feel safe

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Speaker 1: at school. There's not enough staff in the building right

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Speaker 1: now to even teach half my kids. A third of

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Speaker 1: my kids are out. This isn't working. So yeah, so

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Speaker 1: we voted that we're going to stay home and work

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Speaker 1: remotely and then we got locked out. Yeah, which again,

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Speaker 1: like and I want to almost refocus on this for

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Speaker 1: a second because even a lot of people who were

401
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Speaker 1: sympathetic to to to the teachers unions on Twitter, you

402
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 1: see this a lot, they'll they'll be like the CTU

403
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: went on a strike. It's like, no, they didn't like

404
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:07,959
Speaker 1: teachers and teachers are not on strike. The teachers are

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Speaker 1: attempting to work from home and the school district will

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Speaker 1: not let them. Yeah, it's it's every morning. I get

407
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Speaker 1: up at six thirty, I make my coffee, and I

408
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Speaker 1: sit down and I try to log in, and I

409
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Speaker 1: know I won't be able to, but I do it anyway. Um. Thankfully,

410
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Speaker 1: I had thought to download as much of my materials

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Speaker 1: as I could prior to this one to my personal device,

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Speaker 1: so I am still able to create lessons lands been

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Speaker 1: making some very cool social study slides. I'm I'm so

414
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 1: sure that my students are gonna love lots of cool

415
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: assignments for them to do to um. But yeah, like

416
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Speaker 1: this is a lockout, and LORI keeps starting this word

417
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Speaker 1: like illegal work stoppage around. It's not a work stoppage.

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Speaker 1: We are actively working. She has illegally. It is in

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Speaker 1: our contract that she can't lock us out and she

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00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: did so. So yeah, everyone's doing each other and saying illegal.

421
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: But I know which side is right. Yeah, yeah, you know.

422
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Speaker 1: I I am not an enormal perspector of the law,

423
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: but like this is this is both is one of

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Speaker 1: the rare occasions where the thing that is happening is

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00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: both illegal and also just wrong. The reporting on this

426
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Speaker 1: just has not gotten the actual fundamental thing which is

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00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: happening here, which is a lockout, and it's enormously frustrating

428
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: a lot of ways because you know, and i'd say this, okay,

429
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: so the like local media reporting has been a lot better,

430
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: but any like any national coverage has just I've seen

431
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: it's just been like, yeah, it's gonna be it for

432
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: part one at this interview, come back tomorrow for part two,

433
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: when we will talk more about what's actually going on

434
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: inside the schools and you know, generally do the media's

435
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 1: s job for them, because Lord knows they're not actually

436
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: getting it right. You can find us that Happened Here

437
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: pod on Twitter and Instagram as usual, or you cannot

438
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: find us. In fact, I encourage you not defined us,

439
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: because good Lord, the internet is bad. Goodbye, Welcome to

440
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 1: it could Happen Here a podcast about things going badly

441
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: and falling apart. And today we are back with part

442
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: two for interview with Lucy about how the Chicago Public

443
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: school system is following apart under the relentless assault of

444
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,719
Speaker 1: cruelty and malice and incompetence by the Chicago Public Schools

445
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: and by the Mayor, Lord Lightfoot. Enjoy. There's everything I

446
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: want to talk about a bit, which is when you've

447
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 1: been back, when you've been sort of teaching in the

448
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: in these really like sort of what what is it

449
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: actually like to teach in these classrooms? And like you know,

450
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: how how safe actually is it? So, I mean I've

451
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: been in a lot of different environments. When I was

452
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: teaching middle schoolers, I did not feel super COVID safe.

453
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: Um they are. I don't have people know this about

454
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: middle school age kids. They love to touch each other,

455
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: especially boys. They love to like wrestle. They're was putting

456
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: each other in headlocks. I am constantly having to just

457
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: be like six feet six ft or three ft or

458
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 1: whatever CDC said we are now. Um, they don't put

459
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: their masks on. They put their masks in their mouths

460
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: all the time, like in their mouths. Um. There's they're

461
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: constantly finding like weird little excuses to have their mask off.

462
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: Like they'll just sit there with like like there're a

463
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: lot to have water bottles because they can't use the

464
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: water contains. They'll just sit there with like a straw

465
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: in their mouth for like extended amounts of time. And

466
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, I need you to put your mask up,

467
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: take quicksips and put your mask up. And they're like

468
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: I'm drinking, Like I'm going to be drinking at the

469
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: end of this day, but like, I know, take a

470
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: quick sip, put your mask back up. It's really really

471
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 1: important for your safety. Um. And then I have other

472
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: kids who are absolutely straight up like terrified of this

473
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: because like they've lost parents, they've lost grandparents. Um, It's

474
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: it's really scary. UM. At the high school level, it's

475
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: been a little better. High school kids are a little

476
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: more rational. Um, but I still have a few who

477
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: are just like, their masks are down around their chins

478
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: all the time, we're under their nose, and I'm I'll

479
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: like several times of class fear, like, okay, time for

480
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: everybody to do a mass check. Make sure your mask

481
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: is covering your nose, your mouth, your chin. Um, I'll

482
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: remind them like I have a spouse at home who

483
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: has an underlying condition, and like, please don't have me

484
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: bring home a deadly disease to him, because that would

485
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: really not be great. Um. Most of them are pretty good,

486
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 1: but still they're getting sick. Like I think we had

487
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: like forty kids out of my building one Monday and

488
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: like twenty eight staff members or something like that. We're

489
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: out and we had one sub which is the other

490
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: That's the other issue is this isn't really a question of, um,

491
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: if we should go remote. It's a question of when

492
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: will we be forced to go remote. And we can

493
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: either do that now before everybody has gotten sick and

494
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: wait for this to subside and get some better mitigation

495
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: strategies in place, or we can do it after everybody

496
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: is sick, and then we're going to be scrambling to

497
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: figure it out and also be sick at the same time.

498
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: I don't really see how that makes any sense. Yeah,

499
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: that's the part of this. And I've just been like

500
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: I just like I don't get it, Like I just

501
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: like fundamentally, there's there's like a mental break where it's

502
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: like I don't understand why like Lightfoot and CPS so

503
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: insistance about not going remote, Like I get that, Like, yeah,

504
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: it's it's hard on kids, but it's like it's it's

505
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: you know, it is the years two Like no matter

506
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: what you do, it's it's hard on the kids. And

507
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, I also I wonder how much of

508
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: it is the remote learning that's hard on them, and

509
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: how much of it is just the um everything around

510
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: them is crashing and following and burning around their ears

511
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: because um, the messaging that they've been getting is that

512
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: they don't matter. They're not important, their safety isn't important,

513
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: their families aren't important, and um some of them like

514
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: want to be remote, A lot of them, a lot

515
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: of their parents want them to be remote. They're like,

516
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, it's not as good, but at least I

517
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: feel safe. Some of them even thrived in remote like

518
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: actually did pretty well. And I really wish that it

519
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: was just an option for those students who actually did

520
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: well with it, that they could just like if we

521
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: even ended up with like a third of our students

522
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: choosing it, it would mitigate this so much because that's

523
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: a third of the people. Not they're to spread it around. Um,

524
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: So how how big? How big your class sizes are? UM?

525
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: Right now the building I'm in now, I have like

526
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: thirty in some my It was kind of similar at

527
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: the last building, Like they're in that range. I have

528
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: like always have like one or two that are like

529
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: the twenty year below that are usually um special education

530
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: like inclusion classes where I have co teacher. UM. But yeah,

531
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: it's you know, some of them are pretty crowded, and

532
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: it really varies by school. Like there's definitely schools that

533
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: have over thirty kids in a room, um and don't

534
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: have the staff because it's just that's the other thing

535
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: is like they keep talking about, you know, I keep

536
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: seeing people be like fire all the teachers, and I'm like,

537
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: good luck, Like, yes, is chronically understaffed. What are you

538
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: gonna do? Yeah? I think again, Like this job is

539
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: really hard, like it's being a teacher. Yeah, it's hard.

540
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: It's exhausting, and it's very very rewarding. Like when it's good,

541
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: it's great. When it's bad, it is miserable. Um so, yeah,

542
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: and like what it looks like and I mean that's

543
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: you know, it depends, it really depends on what school

544
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: you're in. Um I think everybody can agree that it

545
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: is difficult right now. Um So, we we have like

546
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: air purifiers going and masks on, and I cannot understand

547
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: what my kids are saying a lot of the time,

548
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: Like I do not know, and they speak so quietly. Yeah,

549
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: like I need you to shout it, say it like

550
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: you mean whatever it is. So but you know, that's

551
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: been challenging and frustrating and exhausting. But um the worst

552
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: thing ever is finding out that one of my students

553
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: is sick. Like I hate when they're I hate it

554
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: when they hurt. Like whenever that one of them is hurting,

555
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: I feel bad. And knowing that their home sick is

556
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: it's it's really upsetting and just it's you know, it's

557
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: distressing for teachers to know that their kids are struggling

558
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: in a way like that. So that's you know, we

559
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: want them to be safe, you know, like these kids,

560
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: it's like and this is this is true of the

561
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: staff too, when you're when you're getting sick, it's like, yeah,

562
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: like some of these people will be okay, but enormous

563
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: numbers of people are like so man, these people are

564
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: gonna die. So some of these people, a lot of

565
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: these people are going to get disabled. Um, yeah, I

566
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: mean the long term, long terffects is really bad. And

567
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:14,239
Speaker 1: you know, one off, if people remember we we did

568
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: an episode with on our Friends who's a nurse and like, yeah,

569
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: like he he had long COVID. His long COVID was

570
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: like he he couldn't do more than like like getting

571
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: out of bed or like like walking across the room,

572
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: which just put him in bed all day. Because there's

573
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's an enormous range of sort of

574
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: like of of long COVID side effects and yeah, it's

575
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's like CPS is just child cope

576
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: of schools. It's just like they're getting people killed. Yeah,

577
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: it's and it's you know that's like the question like

578
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: they keep talking about percentages and I'm like, these are

579
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: human beings. Every one of those numbers is a human.

580
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: So when you say like only you know, point whatever

581
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: percent are going to be long term affected, like, okay,

582
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: those are people. Can we stop like dehumanizing them with

583
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: these later like data points and um as for like

584
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: the issue with like how like kids are less affected

585
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: by or whatever, Like the fact is like the more

586
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: we allow this to spread around, the more variants we're

587
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: going to see. And we don't know that the next

588
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: variant isn't going to be the one that is really

589
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: significantly harmful to children. And we are basically turning our

590
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: schools into these peatree dishes where this thing can mutate

591
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: and become stronger. And now we have vaccinated people who

592
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: are in that mix, and it's becoming resistant to the vaccine.

593
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: So you know, I'm a social studie teacher, not a

594
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: science teacher, but this seems like a bad move to make. Yeah, yeah,

595
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, it's it's just sort of heartbreaking

596
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. I mean, it's just like they've

597
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: just decided that you And again, like I don't I

598
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: don't know why Lightfoot's doing this, Like maybe it's just

599
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: like she wants to share up her base thing because

600
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: she's trying to build a base among like the just

601
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: like rich, weird noorsiders or something. But like it's she's

602
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: a small business person. That's always when people are the

603
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,479
Speaker 1: small business owners who don't want to close schools because

604
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: then you know, their workers won't come in, and you know,

605
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: I want to feel sorry for them, but I know,

606
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, like like you, because there's also a

607
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: lot of small business owners who have been very supportive

608
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: of us. We had uh there's like a taco place

609
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: offering free burritos to us, Like I really appreciate that.

610
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 1: Like there's the community who understand that, like the lives

611
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: of our children are so much more important than you

612
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: missing two weeks of profit, Like you will figure that out.

613
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: And if you want to bail out businesses, um, we

614
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: can figure that out. But right now. And also like

615
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: is is saying like we have we aren't we refused

616
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: to do anything that might be inconvenient for business owners,

617
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: Like what is that? Yeah, and it's like it's like yeah,

618
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: so you know. And also yeah, but like business owners

619
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: did get bailed out, like they got they got they

620
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: got zero presented loans. Most of those loans got written

621
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: off and meanwhile, yeah, it's like, well, okay, what did

622
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: life to do with the COVID buddy? She she gave

623
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: it to the cops. And oh hey, guess guess who's

624
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: also just a rapperance better of COVID. Oh yeah it's

625
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 1: the cops. Yeah, resisted vaccines the most, the cops. I mean, actually,

626
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: there there there There is one funny thing which I'm

627
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: actually very excited about, which is that the cops are

628
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: doing they're having their first so they have a new

629
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: class graduating. But for the police academies, which is really bad,

630
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: and there's a whole well, one of one of the

631
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: like life Foot's things was that there there was a

632
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: huge campaign against building more police academies because you know,

633
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: everyone hates child to police apart, right, they're awful. And

634
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: if you have a hundred billion dollars for a new

635
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: police academy, why or a hundred million or whatever it was,

636
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: why can't you you put some better ventilation into schools? Yeah,

637
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: well it's gonna Yeah, it's because because because like the

638
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: CPD are like basically feudal lords. They have nights, they

639
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: go out, they can shoot you, like they rob you.

640
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: They just like any any any large number of like

641
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: black kids on the streets. Like if you just have

642
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: like fifteen kids walking around, like eight quad cars will

643
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: show up. And you know that there was in Lightfoot

644
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: was like no no, not her, like one of her

645
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: campaign thing big and pain things like no, no, We're

646
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: gonna make sure we build these academies. And but so

647
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: they're they're having their first like rounded that they've been

648
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: having trouble recruiting because the cod is good. Yeah, and

649
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: and they're they're about to have their first police Academy

650
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: exam and it's gonna be in person, and I am

651
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: this is the only what are the few? Is this

652
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: jaire Bosonaro where it's like I am rooting for the

653
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: virus here, like please God save us from these cops.

654
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it's it's but they're just at

655
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: home and spread it around. Yeah. Yeah, that's a sad thing.

656
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: It's it's just it's grotesque. And yeah, it's been this

657
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: thing where I'm like watching like the school system is

658
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: just throwing their hands up, been saying we don't care,

659
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: We're done. The health system, the health care system is

660
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: like crashing and burning all around us. Nurses are quitting

661
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: hospitals are like, we don't have room for more patients, Like,

662
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: did you have a cancer treatment schedule? Sorry? Did you

663
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: have a surgery scheduled? Sorry? I just saw somebody on

664
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: Twitter saying she um has a brain tumor and she's

665
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 1: supposed to have a surgery for it and she can't

666
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 1: now because of COVID because they have no beds. There

667
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: aren't any. And you're telling me that the right move

668
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: right now is to keep the schools open, which has

669
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: always been in every every pandemic that we've ever had.

670
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: Schools and hospitals and prisons are like the place where

671
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: the whatever diseases spreads. And I know we've been claiming

672
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: that like there's not been spread in schools, but we've

673
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: now seen the data that there, in fact is a

674
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: huge amount. Which I've been like screaming about this since

675
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: we started that their contact tracing models are they're absurd.

676
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: They are like kafka esque, Like basically, um, so we

677
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: start from the assumption that everybody is six ft apart

678
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: and wearing their mask at all times, which it's not.

679
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: It's not even it's not even physically possible in a

680
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: lot of classrooms for that to be happening, and then too,

681
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: we start with the assumption that those things work, and

682
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,919
Speaker 1: so you'll get a call from a contact racer that's like, hey,

683
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: um on, you know, like last Tuesday, Tuesday of last week,

684
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 1: were you within six ft of any of your eighth

685
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: graders for more than fifteen minutes? Funck if I know

686
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: Tuesday of last week, was I near an eighth grader

687
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: for fifteen minutes? I don't know. I have no idea

688
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: even if, like, even if I did, know, what difference

689
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: does it make. It is an aerosolized virus. It is

690
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: in the air, and the more you sit in classrooms,

691
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: the more it accumulates. Like we have seen like studies

692
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: about um this, We've seen studies about how CEO two

693
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: accumulates in the air when there's crowds. We know that

694
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: stuff accumulates like that in classrooms very very quickly. And

695
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 1: you're gonna tell me that as long as I wasn't

696
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: within fifteen or within six ft for more than fifteen

697
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: continuous minutes, not even like um, not even fifteen minutes

698
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: like added up throughout the day, just fifteen minutes continuously,

699
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get a virus. But you're shipping

700
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: me like that makes no sense. And so then if

701
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: and if and if you're answer to those questions are no,

702
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: because whatever you were following the rules, then they're like, Okay,

703
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: you got COVID somewhere else. It wasn't at school. Yeah

704
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: no it does. It's nonsense. It's like I go to

705
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: work and I go home. I don't do anything else,

706
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: so I don't know where else is coming from, like yeah,

707
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: like and also just wanted a brief digression about like okay,

708
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: so like like I like I went to like a

709
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: like a pretty good like like a pretty well like

710
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: a very well funded like a Chicago area school, and like, okay,

711
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 1: those places, those places ventilation sucks. Like again, like again,

712
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: I went to a very well funded school. Like we

713
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: had a we had drowned dead rats falling out of

714
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: the ceiling like it was. It was incredibly my my

715
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: my great high school memories with my principle, just like

716
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: running full tilt pushing a trash can because dead drownd

717
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 1: friend up. See my god lord, my school was wild.

718
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: We had how bad it was like a kind of

719
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: a chemistry teacher let a kid set off a smoke

720
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: bomb like that. They made like in a classroom, but

721
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: it didn't work, so it just like actually blew up

722
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 1: like it was a time but like like like learning, Okay,

723
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: I got to light the school on fire, but like

724
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: like this is a this is like yeah, like like

725
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: these schools are not like they're not the environments Yeah

726
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: I worked in at the beginning of the year was

727
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: a hundred years old. It was built in nineteen twenty

728
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: and there was always this like sewage smell around the

729
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: background as the pipes were messed up. It was weird,

730
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: like and they couldn't fix it. I think it was

731
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: it was the second or third time by building lived

732
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: on fire. Like we there was a there was a

733
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: whole thing in the building that was made of asbestos

734
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: and they just had left it there because it was

735
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: like it wasn't exposed. Yeah, abestos over like I get

736
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 1: like I I went to like a good, well funded

737
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: one of these schools, right Like it's I think there's

738
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: there's like there's there's these two there's two things. I

739
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: think it is. Interestingly, there's when you like talk to

740
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: like the people who want the schools to open back up, right,

741
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: they'll they're also talking about like oh no, it's fun.

742
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: Everyone wears masks, everyone's vaccinated, everyone succeeds Like no, no,

743
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: they're not like this. This is how it works in

744
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: this like imaginary play world you've like created. Have you

745
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 1: ever met a child? Like have you met your own children?

746
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: Like oh and that's the best is like, well, I've

747
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: been having my kids wearing masks like you have your

748
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: full of ship. Okay, because I hold that kid to

749
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: put their masks on like fifteen times yesterday and I

750
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: love them beautiful face. I hope they get to show

751
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: it off someday, but right now, cooped up, please, I'm

752
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: begging you. And I'm like, I'm not like that teacher

753
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: who's really authoritarian, Like I've never been good at like

754
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: writing kids up and getting on them for stuff because

755
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: it's just like I don't know, I hate doing that.

756
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: I hate being that person. So it's been like really,

757
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 1: it's like a struggle. It's like am I going to

758
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: be the person who nags them every five seconds? Or

759
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: am I gonna be um the teacher that they like

760
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: and want to learn from? Like you know, this isn't sustainable.

761
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: So but you're asking like the attitudes of people who

762
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: want to open schools back up, and I it's it's

763
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: hard because I have talked to parents who are worth read,

764
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: but they are also very upset because they see that

765
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: their kids are struggling. And I really do feel for

766
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: them on that, like I really really do. It is

767
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: hard to see a kid struggle, but it is harder,

768
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: I think, to see a kid sick. That is really hard.

769
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: And it's just this, like there are ways that we

770
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: can overcome the difficulties of remote learning, Like we we

771
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 1: can find ways to give them the emotional support, um,

772
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: we can find better socializing outlets, but I don't know

773
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: how we fix like you've become very ill and your

774
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: body isn't going to recover in the way that you

775
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: thought it would, Like I don't. I can't fix that.

776
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: So's something I've heard from other teachers that like the

777
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: preparing remote learning stuff like is harder and takes more

778
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: work than Yeah, it does. It's it's really rough. I

779
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: don't like doing it. I want to be in the

780
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 1: classroom but and I just I just want to like

781
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: once again, yell at all of the people who are

782
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: like the teachers are lazy and it's like no, people

783
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: like they're like yeah, like you're you are advocating to

784
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: do more work because that's that's the thing that will

785
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: keep the kids safe. And it's yeah, I think a

786
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: lot of people don't understand like the behind the scenes

787
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: how the sausage gets made of a classroom. But I

788
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: think a lot of people have this idea that like

789
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: we are given curriculum and plans and materials pre made.

790
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: And sometimes that's true. It depends on your subject. Mine

791
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: is social size is not a subject where that happens

792
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: very much, which is part of why I like it

793
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: because I like to be creative. UM. So like my

794
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: week looks like UM, there are a lot of hours

795
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: after school where I am sitting down, I'm looking at

796
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 1: the standards that I need to teach, the topics that

797
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: I need to teach, and I'm researching it and learning

798
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: it and finding a way to teach that to kids

799
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: who don't have the same like baseline knowledge that I have. UM,

800
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: And then I'm creating like an activity for them. I'm

801
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: creating UM, You're I'm finding like material sources and like

802
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: videos and stuff that they can watch that are going

803
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: to help them, or things to read. I'm modifying those

804
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: things for the kids who have UM. You know, learning differences.

805
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: I'm translating some of those things into Spanish for kids

806
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: who don't really read very well in English yet. So

807
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: like that's a ton of work on its own. And

808
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: then when we switch to remote, we have to figure

809
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: out how to do all of that on Google Classroom,

810
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: where now it has to all be typed like or

811
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: you know, like how do I figure like how do

812
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: I do a group project online? How do I let

813
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: them do something creative that isn't just sitting here answering

814
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: questions on a worksheet. That's hard, and We've been really

815
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: good at it, and I've found all kinds of really

816
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: cool tools to do that with. But it's so much work,

817
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: and it's work that I'm willing to do because I

818
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: care about my job. I enjoy my work. I love

819
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: my students, but um, you know, and I want them

820
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: to be safe. But like, you know, it is a

821
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: ton of work. I'm not just sitting here eating bond

822
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: bonds all day or drinking cocktails. Yeah, And I think

823
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: there's there's like a larger sort of like like Americans

824
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: have this like the sexist sort of like hatred of

825
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: like or in disrespect to people who do both care

826
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 1: work and a lot of creative work both and then

827
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: simultaneously there's this sort of like you know, the the

828
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: there's there's there's a resentment to people who get to

829
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: actually do something that helps people. And you know, I

830
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: think right now we're seeing just the most toxic fusion

831
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: of that, which is that like, yeah, I know, like

832
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: these like you know, and instead of like you know,

833
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: recognizing the enormous amount of work that that's going into

834
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: all like this going into into teaching, like the amount

835
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: of sort of like the care and love that's going

836
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: into the creativity it's going into it, and just like

837
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: the people people's willing, like you're willing listen to make

838
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,439
Speaker 1: like enormous sacrifices to try to keep these kids safe.

839
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 1: They're just like no, Like the teachers are lazy, they

840
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: don't want to work, they're going on strike, like and

841
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: it's you know, and and and it's like they're doing

842
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: this and it's like yeah, like you you were like

843
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: they're killing their own kids. It's just like it's it's

844
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: this weird fusion of like we we I've had. The

845
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 1: spaces is like a combination of like feminized care labor,

846
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: emotional labor, and UM, that's sort of like like intelligence. Yeah,

847
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: like professional, UM, white collar intellectual kind of thing. And

848
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: then also we're teaching a UM more introductory level of

849
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: our subjects, so we're seeing as like discount intellectuals who

850
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: are also women who do care work. So it's it's

851
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 1: very frustrating, and I don't think a lot of people

852
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: understand the amount of UM skill and expertise it takes

853
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: to be a teacher and be effective at it. Like

854
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: it's not just I need to know social studies to

855
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: the level that a twelfth grader would know it. It's

856
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 1: I need to know social studies beyond that level and

857
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: know how to communicate it to a high school student.

858
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: And also I need to know a lot of stuff

859
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 1: about like child development. It's it's really it's something and UM,

860
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: I you know, I find that to be fun and challenging,

861
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: but I wish it was respected and you know, and

862
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: then you're talking about like people are sacrificing their own kids.

863
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: I want to point out a lot like I think

864
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: there's a racial component to this. UM. The people who

865
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: are in wealthier schools and who are mostly white know

866
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: that their kids are gonna be fine, like they are

867
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: in schools that actually do have the resources to distance,

868
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: that have air filters, that have good ventilation. Um, they're vaccinated,

869
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: their kids are probably going to be fine. The kids

870
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 1: that aren't going to be fine are lowing, um, students

871
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: of color. And it has always been this way. It's

872
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: always been this way with schools, Like when schools were desegregated,

873
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: we started with private school vouchers, and we started with

874
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: all of these like uh, state testing requirements and withholding

875
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: funding from schools that don't meet those, you know, test

876
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: standards and all of these like, um, this extra oversight

877
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: on teachers like that stuff all comes back to white

878
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 1: people don't want to have to worry about black people's kids.

879
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: That's it. And you know, they will move their kids

880
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: out to the north side or the suburbs or whatever.

881
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: Notice that all of those suburbs schools have flipped remote.

882
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: Noticed that Lorry Lightfoot's kids are in a charter school

883
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: that is not remote. Well, and more than Lightfoot Lightfoot Lightfoot,

884
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: Lightfoot will not put herself in a room with the

885
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: with the same number of people like a teacher should

886
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:00,959
Speaker 1: go to every day. You won't. And she was telling

887
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 1: people at the press conferences they had to wear their masks,

888
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 1: and then she wasn't wearing hers, which was very challenge

889
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: to me. Like that's what they like when when you

890
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: when you get to the politician level, they know it's dangerous,

891
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: Like they know they they you can tell what they

892
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: do right now. Yeah, like they won't do it, but

893
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: like no, no, they're they're perfectly willing to just send

894
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: to send you off the die, to send all these

895
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: kids off to die. And it's just yeah, sometimes I

896
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: feel I get kind of dumer and I wonder if

897
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: like if that's not the plan, Like is it that?

898
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't really believe that. I think what

899
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: it really is is this just like malicious neglect. Like

900
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 1: if you're somebody who's a policymaker and someone comes to

901
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 1: you and it's like, I need you to care about

902
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: this population here that doesn't have a lot of money

903
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 1: and needs a lot of things, and you, the policymaker,

904
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: are going to be like, oh, it sounds like so

905
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 1: much work. And then somebody else is going to come

906
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: to you and be like I need these things over here,

907
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 1: and I do have a lot of money, and I

908
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 1: do have a lot of influence, and I'm gonna make

909
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: your life difficult if you don't do what I want,

910
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: they're gonna do with that other side once. And what

911
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: the other side once right now is for kids to

912
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 1: get back into school so they can have free daycares,

913
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: the parents can go to work, and that's and that's it.

914
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 1: And teachers are standing here being like, I didn't get

915
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: a master's degree and do you know countless hours of

916
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 1: professional development to be a babysitter, you know, and no,

917
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: not to knock babysitters. I was in nanny for a

918
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,919
Speaker 1: long time. That is hard work. But um, I didn't

919
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: get a master's degree to be a babysitter. I got

920
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: a master's degree to be a teacher. And I'm in

921
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: an environment right now where I can't really teach effectively

922
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: and all I'm doing is babysitting. They want to wear

923
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 1: house kids. That is what we're doing with the schools.

924
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: That's why they want them open. And it's you know,

925
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: it's it's hard not to feel like they just started

926
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: doing it because they hate us, even though I know

927
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: it's not. It's just it does feel that way. I

928
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: will like, I will say that, like you're so if

929
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 1: you become elected as the mayor of Chicago, Like your

930
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: job is to break the teachers union. Like that's that's like,

931
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: that's that's that's that's like the role you're auditioning for.

932
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: And they have been they have been trying to do

933
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: this for literally my entire lifetime. They've been trying to

934
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: do this, like since before I was born. Like that's

935
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: and honestly, like, wouldn't surprise me if this was another

936
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: part of this was just them once again trying to

937
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: break the teacher's union. Oh absolutely, like and if and

938
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: not even just that like yeah, you know, like not

939
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 1: just on the sort of political level, like on the

940
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 1: incredible cynical level, we'll just kill them. Well, it's it's

941
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: a labor thing. Like it's not just a Chicago teachers

942
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: union or even a teacher's union thing. It is a

943
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: labor movement across the board thing that. Um, the largest,

944
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 1: I think the largest unionized workforce in the country is

945
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: teachers and we on top of that are a union

946
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 1: of workers who have the power to absolutely bring our

947
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: economy to a grinding hole if we want to. We

948
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,040
Speaker 1: could all go on straight right now and no, but

949
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: he's going to do ship until we go back to work. Um.

950
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: They could if they, you know, they could try to

951
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: like replace us with like people who are basically like

952
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: hall monitors and give kids like canned curriculums, but they

953
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: wouldn't really be learning very well, and parents wouldn't be

954
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 1: happy with it, and they wouldn't be entering the workforce

955
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: with the skills. They need to make money for the economy,

956
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: to you know, make money for the almighty Tao. So um.

957
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: The it has been a project for decades in this

958
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: country to try to break teachers unions because teacher unions

959
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: occupy this space where they allow other unions to happen. Um.

960
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: We have, you know, enough influence on politicians that they

961
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: can't just disband the labor board and make unions illegal,

962
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: which they would absolutely fucking love to do. And if

963
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,240
Speaker 1: they could just get rid of these damn teachers unions,

964
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: maybe they could do it. Um. So you know, and

965
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 1: that's what you see with the education reform movement where

966
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: you have all these people advocating for bouchers and charter schools,

967
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 1: and it's you know, they want to break labor and

968
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 1: I see a lot of I mean, now I'm gonna

969
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 1: I'm gonna scold some of my comrades. But I see

970
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: a lot of leftists who are really skeptical of teachers

971
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 1: and don't want to support the teachers union. And I

972
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,359
Speaker 1: get it, like there are a lot of teachers who

973
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: really suck, and there's a lot of teachers who are

974
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: not radical, like most teachers are not radical, a lot

975
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: of them are pretty conservative. But at the same time,

976
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: if you were to abolish schools immediately right now and

977
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: break up the teachers unions and all that, you're gonna

978
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: get end up with. Rich people go to school, poor

979
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 1: people don't. If your poor your kid goes to work,

980
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: probably won't be in a coal mine, but you know,

981
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 1: they'll probably be like soldering my computer chips or coding

982
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 1: or something for like pennies an hour. And I don't

983
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: want that world. And if you actually care about labor,

984
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 1: then you need to support teachers unions because, um, the

985
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: public schools are central to all these communities that we

986
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,839
Speaker 1: want to be reaching, and the unions are the only

987
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: thing making sure that they stay public. Yeah. Yeah, that's

988
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: like I almost like again like to to to to

989
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: Ayannaka's comrades were anti school. It's like, yeah, like, okay,

990
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 1: I hate school. I'm for d D schooling is great,

991
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: but we need to do other things first. Yeah, you

992
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,320
Speaker 1: have to and like again like that you need to

993
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 1: like just like support the workers, not the institution. Like

994
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: it's like it's like saying I'm a vegan, so I'm

995
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: going to go after McDonald's in place like like like

996
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: so like I I my high school was like all

997
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: them like incredibly conservative, but everyone was still in the Union.

998
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 1: That was like the one that was the one thing

999
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: that was like, well, okay, they were there. There. There

1000
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: there were two counter fanidling forces. One was that I

1001
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: the Christians didn't seem to understand liberation theology was so

1002
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: occasionally they'd accidentally hire leftist because they were like, oh,

1003
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 1: you're a Christian, You're fine, you're from from America. We're

1004
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: not gonna question you further. The second thing was that

1005
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: even everyone everyone was in the Union, and that was

1006
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: like that was that was literally the only those are

1007
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 1: the only two left wing. Like I've gotten into so

1008
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,320
Speaker 1: many teaching spaces by talking about how I like critical

1009
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: pedagogy and I don't understand Frary was a compete, or

1010
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 1: being like oh, I'm really really really into Chicago history.

1011
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: I especially love the history of like labor in Chicago,

1012
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 1: because it's it's huge people here here about it and

1013
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 1: they don't get that like I'm an anarchist, you know,

1014
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: And and a lot of the like um sort of

1015
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 1: like education reform language. I think it's very funny. It

1016
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 1: is just lifted from radical like sociologists and anthropologists and

1017
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 1: educators who are trying to find way is to um

1018
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 1: dismantle like authoritarian structures in schools, and so they'll come

1019
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: up with these like um, you know, like restorative practices

1020
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and then they kind of get

1021
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: they make their way up to the Ivory Tower and

1022
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 1: then get repackaged in this It's it's like, I don't know,

1023
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: it's like a machine or something that like sucks up

1024
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 1: radical ideas, brings them up to the academy, repackages them

1025
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: to make them nice for politicians, and then spits them

1026
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: back out. And it is exhausting and I hate it.

1027
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: It makes me so mad. I'll never forgive people for

1028
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 1: what they did to the term restorative justice. Yeah, do

1029
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: you have anything else that you want to make sure

1030
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 1: that people like understand about what's happening in the schools

1031
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 1: right now? UM, I guess just The biggest thing is

1032
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: I want people to understand that, like, this is a

1033
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: question of when and under what conditions are we going

1034
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: to be forced into a remote learning situation. This isn't

1035
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 1: like we want remote learning because we like it because

1036
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: it's fun. It's because it's going to happen if you

1037
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 1: like it or not. The schools are going to close

1038
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 1: if you like it or not, because the unless you're

1039
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: okay with, just like people are going to get sick

1040
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: and die and or going to work sick, which I

1041
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: think most of us agree that's insane. Um it is

1042
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: there are you We're going to be in a situation

1043
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:25,919
Speaker 1: where we don't have enough staff to keep buildings open.

1044
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: So either we can try and mitigate that now and

1045
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: keep that from happening, or we can just start our

1046
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: hands up and stay fine. Let let the schools collapse.

1047
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: I don't want the schools to collapse. So, um, if

1048
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 1: we could just go remote for two weeks and get

1049
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 1: some good testing in and have a vaccine requirement, and personally,

1050
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: I would like to advocate for remote as an option

1051
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: for parents who want it. I don't think that's on

1052
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: the table right now, but um, I think more parents

1053
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 1: out there should be demanding it. And I also would

1054
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 1: like to say to parents, you have a lot of

1055
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 1: power that you don't understand. Um, the school districts listen

1056
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 1: to the parents so much more than the teachers. One

1057
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 1: parents voice is worth like ten teacher voices. So if

1058
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 1: you see something going on in your schools that you're

1059
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: not comfortable with, if you have questions, contact your principles,

1060
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 1: contact the district, talk to people, talk to the other

1061
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: parents that you know, organize yourselves. Um, if we had,

1062
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 1: you know, strong parent organizations on our side, we would

1063
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: be absolutely unstoppable and we could have the school system

1064
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 1: that we want and that our kids deserve. Yeah, and

1065
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 1: I think I like the right figured this out a

1066
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: long time ago that you absolutely, yeah, look at what

1067
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: they're doing to the school board meetings with CRT. We

1068
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 1: could have that for people who are actually good people

1069
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 1: who care, like there's no there's no reason that all

1070
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 1: of the other parents couldn't be going and saying I

1071
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 1: want my kids to learn about race, and I want

1072
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: them to be wearing masks, and I want everybody to

1073
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: be vaccinated. Yeah. So I think I think I think

1074
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 1: that's a good note to end on. We you know,

1075
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: we can make this better. We just have to, you know,

1076
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 1: work together. Yeah, do you have anything that you want

1077
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: to plug? Like, do you have a way to support

1078
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 1: the teacher shore Um? I think I'll send you a

1079
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: flyer that we have. It has some information for contacting Alderman,

1080
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 1: getting COVID tests and potential to sign um. If you

1081
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: could post that, I would really appreciate. I definitely can

1082
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 1: definitely do that. Awesome, Thank you, thanks for coming on. Yeah,

1083
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: good talking to you. All right, Robert, do you want

1084
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 1: to open on us up with something? I don't know? Nope,

1085
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: you're opening the opening is is that is what you

1086
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: just did's already opened? Well, come to take it happen

1087
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: here the podcast about how things things do be crumbling sometimes,

1088
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: including our ability to introduce the podcast that page. It's

1089
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 1: actually a very meta art piece about the Yeah, we

1090
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: started off very polished and slowly commentary on I don't

1091
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 1: know something. It's called out figure out what. It's a

1092
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: commentary on it. It's called metamodernism. It's the post it's

1093
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: post postmodern anyway. Um, what are we talking about? Disinformation

1094
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: and various bullshit today? So among the many disinformation vectors online,

1095
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan's podcast is obviously one off, like the largest

1096
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 1: single single vectors. Yeah. I mean, I've said this before,

1097
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 1: but I'll say it again. I don't think there's a

1098
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: cable news station as influential as Joe Rogan. You know,

1099
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: you could, you could make commentary on like, oh maybe

1100
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 1: they have a larger viewership in terms of like their

1101
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 1: actual ability to influence large numbers of people. Um, there's

1102
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 1: certainly no single cable news host that comes close to

1103
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 1: Joe UM, and I would argue probably no network that does.

1104
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,919
Speaker 1: He's extremely influential by virtue of the fact that he's

1105
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 1: um a meathead of people seem to find friendly and engaging,

1106
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: and he is very charismatic. He's good at what he does,

1107
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: he's good at talking. Yeah. So, multiple times during the

1108
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 1: past three weeks, Rogan has brought on two separate quote

1109
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 1: unquote doctors who have started to pedal something called mass

1110
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: formation psychosis, which is kind of a new vector in

1111
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 1: the anti vax kind of argument and like headspace, so

1112
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 1: like as for like the it could happen near portion

1113
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: of the episode, This one's pretty simple. Could mass formation

1114
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 1: psyches this happen here? No way, not this time. We

1115
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 1: created it. Not this time, No, not this time is

1116
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 1: totally made up, pure fiction. It's fiction. It's fiction. We

1117
01:02:57,280 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: made it up. We made this one up. It's a

1118
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: made up tip, it's a total fabrication. Nope, not really

1119
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 1: ever happened anywhere. I might also argue, no, nope, fiction,

1120
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 1: We've solved the podcast, total fabric This is not a thing,

1121
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 1: total fabrication, made up tale. So yeah, well, but when

1122
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 1: whenever these like cook doctors bring up mass formation psychoses,

1123
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: you can actually kind of watch them get close to

1124
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 1: understanding something real, but then they veer off into reactionary nonsense.

1125
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 1: Like most powerful nonsense, there is an element of truth

1126
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 1: that it is uh spinning off of, you know. So

1127
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: let's start off with some of the more kind of

1128
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 1: deranged examples and well then eventually providing at least some

1129
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 1: background onto the whole massformation psychoa, this, this idea, and

1130
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 1: then we'll kind of discuss some of the more slightly

1131
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: interesting aspects of this argument that Eurogan seems fond of

1132
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 1: pushing right now. So, the first thing I want to

1133
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: talk about is Dr Peter McCole, which is not the

1134
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:02,919
Speaker 1: the guy that was trending on Twitter last week or whatever,

1135
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 1: this was. This is someone else that Rogan brought on

1136
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 1: a few weeks previously who actually started talking about this

1137
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 1: first um so background on McColl. By most accounts, he

1138
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: was like a top cardiologist for many years. You know.

1139
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 1: He he shares a similar story to other doctors who

1140
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 1: have become kind of COVID conspiracy celebrities. Former friends and

1141
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 1: co workers say he was a pretty reasonable guy and

1142
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 1: a good doctor, and then COVID he realized he could

1143
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: be worth millions of dollars. Yeah, COVID head that he

1144
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: started to kind of go off the rails, and he

1145
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 1: he initially began an helping conspiracy theories, in particular around

1146
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: hydroxy chlora quinn um. And McColl was also in the

1147
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: news earlier this year due to or I guess uh,

1148
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: due to a legal dispute with his former employer, Baylor

1149
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 1: University Health So, according to a lawsuit, for nearly six

1150
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 1: months after McCall's employment had ended, he continued to use

1151
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 1: his professional titles such as the Vice Chief of Internal

1152
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 1: Medicine at Baylor University, and this represented himself as a

1153
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 1: Baylor and ploye dozens if not hundreds of times in

1154
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: media interviews in which he spread disinformation about the pandemic.

1155
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 1: So the type of misinformation that he talks about, you know,

1156
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: pretty basic stuff. Vaccines are neither safe nor effective. Um.

1157
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 1: He was a very early hydroxical orkin proponent. Um. He

1158
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 1: claims that there's no asymptomatic COVID transmission at all, even

1159
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: if you're not vaccinated. Um. And he claims that you

1160
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 1: cannot get COVID twice once you have it once, the

1161
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 1: post infection natural immunity is a protective against all future

1162
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 1: COVID disease, which, of course this thing works that way,

1163
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 1: works that way. Yeah. No, everything I just said is

1164
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 1: not true. All of it can individually be disproved by

1165
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:48,919
Speaker 1: the existence of Jay Bosonaro. Every single to say that, Chris,

1166
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 1: I'm looking over at my digital picture frame that is

1167
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:54,640
Speaker 1: just loaded with like a dozen photos of JayR bolsa

1168
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:59,360
Speaker 1: Yaro in the hospital dying. Um. Yeah, I recommend everyone

1169
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: do that. It improves every morning. As soon as I

1170
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: walk up to my recording studio, I see JayR. Bolsonaro

1171
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: getting ship sucked out of his nose from a tube,

1172
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 1: and I just feel ready to take on the day.

1173
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 1: It beats coffee. Wow, that's strong words. Um. The other

1174
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 1: big thing. And since how since I want to get

1175
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 1: into the mess uh psychosis bullshit is that he he.

1176
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 1: McCall also asserts that fifty thou Americans have died from

1177
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 1: the vaccine shots. This is not true, um, looking at

1178
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:31,520
Speaker 1: like deaths possibly associated with it, it is like maybe

1179
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 1: a thousand or two thousand, which sucks um. And but

1180
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 1: like that's that's the highest amount because again it's not

1181
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 1: even a lot of these things are not necessarily direct

1182
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 1: directly causal um, So it's hard to figure out what

1183
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 1: is what. But if there is a number, it's around

1184
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: the two wish thousand range. Uh not um. And McCall

1185
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 1: thinks that or at least promotes that the idea that

1186
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 1: like the vaccine is a conspiracy theory to suppress hydroxical

1187
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 1: work win and therapeutic treatment for COVID. And this conspiracy

1188
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: is organized at every level, uh, three different regions, corporations,

1189
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,920
Speaker 1: big pharma, Hollywood, and and this is this is the

1190
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 1: mass formation psychosis is that we've believed that both COVID

1191
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: is like a big problem and that the vaccine is

1192
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: the solution. So I'm gonna I'm gonna play clip. Hopefully

1193
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 1: you guys can hear this of of of McColl talking

1194
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 1: about mass formation psychosis. Dope. We've seen mass psychosis in

1195
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 1: history before the horrific group suicides that have happened with

1196
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: religious culture. We knew a Nazi Germany where people in

1197
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:42,640
Speaker 1: a sense offered their children up to eugenics programs and

1198
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 1: a progressive mass psychosis, and they themselves walk into gas

1199
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 1: chambers and my gas that they didn't fight, go kicking

1200
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 1: and screaming. This type of that's a mass psychosis. So

1201
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 1: what Desmond says is it must be four conditions not

1202
01:07:56,320 --> 01:08:00,200
Speaker 1: for a mass psychosis. The first is the population must

1203
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 1: be isolated. People must be isolated for a plot period.

1204
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 1: Number two, we must have things taken away from us

1205
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: that we previously enjoy. Number three, there must be constant,

1206
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:17,520
Speaker 1: free floating anxiety. Anxiety of more virus is more disability,

1207
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 1: more depth, more anxiety. And then the last one is

1208
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:25,640
Speaker 1: that cap or number four is there must be a

1209
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:31,320
Speaker 1: single solution offered by an entity and authority, the vaccine.

1210
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:36,080
Speaker 1: The only solution to the pandemic is the vaccine. We're

1211
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 1: in a mass echosis. And what Desmond says is with

1212
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 1: the vaccine, there is no limit to the absurdity that

1213
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: we will see no limit to the absurdity. So this

1214
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 1: idea of here, take a vaccine, Take any vaccine. That's absurd.

1215
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 1: Vaccines are different. There must be a winner, there must

1216
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: be a loser, must be something. Why would it be

1217
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,120
Speaker 1: any vaccine. It's the same with the masks, where mass

1218
01:08:58,120 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what kind of mask, just put it

1219
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 1: over your absurdity, the absurdity of well, I've already had COVID.

1220
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: The CDC says you can't get COVID again. Okay, so

1221
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 1: listeners at home should know so that you understand what

1222
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 1: this video is that the entire time he's talking, there's

1223
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 1: what appears to be the eviscerated corpse of a black

1224
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 1: woman lying underneath it. Like it's horrifying. It's like very

1225
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:30,560
Speaker 1: like I think it's like one of the dolls that

1226
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,240
Speaker 1: medical students learned how to do autopsies on. It's not

1227
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:35,400
Speaker 1: a real person, but it does look like the corpse

1228
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 1: of an eviscerated woman as he's just like chatting face

1229
01:09:39,360 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 1: really does look like it took me. I thought it

1230
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:44,800
Speaker 1: was like I couldn't forget what was going on for

1231
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: like yeah, I mean, yeah, they're the real person. The

1232
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 1: cadaver dolls that they have for trading are quite good. Um,

1233
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 1: I kind of want to get one for the next

1234
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 1: time I'm in Texas and want to use an Hi

1235
01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:57,679
Speaker 1: e lane. But that's the story for another day. So yeah,

1236
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 1: that's that's pretty dumb. Actually, the notion that people were

1237
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: hypnotized into peacefully walking into gas I just need to

1238
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: stay like that's the not not only is that like

1239
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 1: that is objectively untrue to the extent that I could

1240
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 1: provide anyone interested with thousands of pages of reading from

1241
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 1: people who survived concentration camps about how they worked and

1242
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 1: why people walked into them, and a lot of it

1243
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 1: just boils down to the fact that it was they

1244
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 1: were making a very rational choice, which was I have

1245
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:32,519
Speaker 1: no options here. I cannot get out of this, but

1246
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 1: I can at least make sure that my children are

1247
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 1: not panicking in the last seconds before we're killed. And

1248
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 1: a lot of the people the the because a lot

1249
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 1: of the actual like grunt work of of key of

1250
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:45,760
Speaker 1: loading humans into the gas chambers was done by other

1251
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:49,640
Speaker 1: inmates who were also not going through psychosis. They were

1252
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 1: given a chance to survive longer by helping to operate

1253
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:56,519
Speaker 1: the camps UM, and those people you can read some

1254
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 1: of them did survive, UM, and some of them wrote

1255
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:01,680
Speaker 1: about their ex arians is um, which is some of

1256
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:04,800
Speaker 1: the most harrowing ship like imaginable for a human being

1257
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:08,680
Speaker 1: to possibly go through. It is all tremendously well documented.

1258
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 1: And the most offensive thing I can imagine is saying

1259
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:14,320
Speaker 1: that these people were somehow is saying Number one, it's

1260
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 1: incredibly offensive to say that they were going through some

1261
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:18,760
Speaker 1: sort of psychosis and that's why they walked into the

1262
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:22,920
Speaker 1: chambers and not this was the best option available to them,

1263
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: given what was going on and what like the situation

1264
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:30,120
Speaker 1: they had been forced into. They did not have other options. Um.

1265
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 1: It was that or get machine gunned to death. UM.

1266
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 1: And maybe you think you would choose a different option. UM.

1267
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 1: But if you're critiquing them or trying to claim that

1268
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:40,280
Speaker 1: like the only reason they would do that what they

1269
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:42,800
Speaker 1: did was that they had lost their minds UM, I

1270
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 1: will I will hit you in the face with a brick,

1271
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:47,880
Speaker 1: fuck you like that. That That's my answer to that. Actually,

1272
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 1: if you are someone who is interested academically and why

1273
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:55,760
Speaker 1: people did some of the things that they did at

1274
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 1: at the death camps um, and like why how that

1275
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 1: actually function? And psychologically it's like a short book. It's

1276
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 1: this way for the gas ladies and gentlemen. And it

1277
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:09,759
Speaker 1: is a quasi fictionalized book by a guy named Taddius

1278
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 1: Borowski who was a survivor of the death camp. So

1279
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 1: it's based on his experiences at Auschwitz and Dachau. UM

1280
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 1: and he he describes the way in which the world

1281
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 1: of the camps worked and the psychology of the camps worked. Um.

1282
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 1: And he's not and he's not a piece of ship

1283
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 1: grifter asshole. He's a guy who lived through all of this.

1284
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 1: So if you actually care about any of this, just

1285
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 1: read that everything this guy says is wrong. And if

1286
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:35,800
Speaker 1: I had a chance to, I would hit him in

1287
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,720
Speaker 1: the face with a brick. Please continue, Garrison. Yeah, it

1288
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:42,799
Speaker 1: really sucks because it's not just a combination of medical

1289
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:48,000
Speaker 1: misinformation but also just the most ship sociology. Um. And

1290
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 1: it creates this a really a really disgusting package of

1291
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 1: of of really bad sociology medical misinformation. Um. And like

1292
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 1: yeah he's doing this too, like because he can make

1293
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:03,280
Speaker 1: a profit off of it. So he's saying these things

1294
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:07,320
Speaker 1: so I know, Um. He mentioned a name, Desmond Desmond's

1295
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:10,040
Speaker 1: the guy who kind of coined this term. We'll we'll

1296
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 1: talk about more about him at the end, but for now,

1297
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:14,960
Speaker 1: let's go on an ad break and we'll be back

1298
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:19,000
Speaker 1: to talk about Dr Robert Malone, the other other guy

1299
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:24,200
Speaker 1: who's been pushing this nonsense. So I probably will want

1300
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 1: to hit with a break even more so, honestly. Yeah,

1301
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:33,240
Speaker 1: And we're back talking now about mass formation, psychosis and

1302
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 1: the dumb people who are well or smart people who

1303
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:42,760
Speaker 1: are using they're they're evil. That tough. So yeah, So

1304
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 1: after after McColl went on Rogan's show, it got that

1305
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:50,240
Speaker 1: that show got pretty popular. Um one, one big right

1306
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:53,680
Speaker 1: wing kind of Trumpett media personality named Melissa Tate was

1307
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:56,439
Speaker 1: permanently banned from Twitter after posting about the podcast and

1308
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 1: making the following post to her half a million followers,

1309
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:02,639
Speaker 1: Global Mombshale. Dr Peter McCall on The Joe Rogan Show

1310
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 1: says Maderna made the code vaccine long before COVID actually hit,

1311
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:09,439
Speaker 1: and that the pandemic was a premeditated and concerted scheme

1312
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:12,640
Speaker 1: by government and medical entities to then force vaccinations as

1313
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:17,240
Speaker 1: the solution. So that's the type of narrative that they're

1314
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:21,000
Speaker 1: trying to foster because the pandemic has been so good

1315
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:24,560
Speaker 1: for Biden's approval ratings. It's really working out great for everybody.

1316
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:28,679
Speaker 1: UH us U S Senator Ron Johnson also promoted the interview,

1317
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:32,759
Speaker 1: saying Rogan asks excellent questions and McColl provides the answers.

1318
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: So yeah um. So Apparently the mass formation Psychosis Doctor

1319
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:41,879
Speaker 1: Guy was enough of a hit that Rogan's team decided

1320
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 1: to very soon after bring on another line, conspiracy doctor

1321
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 1: Dr Robert Malone. So during the last week one, Rogan

1322
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:57,600
Speaker 1: invited Malone onto his show. Malone's of of a virologist

1323
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:02,440
Speaker 1: and and a immunization doctor who claims credit for inventing

1324
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 1: the m RNA vaccine in a pair of papers from

1325
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:09,679
Speaker 1: the late eighties spoilers, He did not There was work

1326
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:12,639
Speaker 1: on the vaccine before him, and work continued after him.

1327
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:17,719
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, um yeah. And in eighty nine he published

1328
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 1: a paper um kind of positing maybe mr NA can

1329
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:28,000
Speaker 1: be binded with with other kind of UH proteins. He

1330
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:30,640
Speaker 1: did not really do any work on it besides just

1331
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: saying I wonder if this could maybe happen, um, And

1332
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:37,559
Speaker 1: then knowledge into this due a bit. There were people

1333
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 1: asking similar questions and publishing papers at the same time

1334
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:46,320
Speaker 1: of the question and before. Yeah, so Malone actually thought

1335
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 1: this was too hard and abandoned this project very soon

1336
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:51,680
Speaker 1: and then went to work for like the military to

1337
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 1: develop other random like uh, he thought the RNA vaccines

1338
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 1: were too hard, so he went on to develop more

1339
01:15:58,120 --> 01:16:01,360
Speaker 1: stuff around DNA vaccines and has been working with like

1340
01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:05,080
Speaker 1: the military and various like big farmer companies fund vaccines

1341
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:09,080
Speaker 1: for a while. More accurately, Dr Carrico and Drew Wiseman

1342
01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:12,160
Speaker 1: are two doctors that are widely agreed and acknowledged to

1343
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:15,560
Speaker 1: have put the most development work and actual like like

1344
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:19,719
Speaker 1: actually doing the science to make m M RNA vaccines

1345
01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:22,559
Speaker 1: a thing. Um, And the of course development of them

1346
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:26,200
Speaker 1: was due to you know, work of hundreds of researchers. Um.

1347
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:28,880
Speaker 1: So it's it's not you know, one person does not

1348
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:30,800
Speaker 1: invent something like this. It's it's a group of a

1349
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 1: lot of people. But but it makes it for an

1350
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,559
Speaker 1: easy title for your viral video. Yes, and in fact,

1351
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:42,320
Speaker 1: actually um uh logically, the That's a Journalist website reached

1352
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 1: out to Malone and for an article, and Malone replied

1353
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:51,280
Speaker 1: back stating that he did not actually literally invent the vaccine,

1354
01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 1: but instead developed a vaccine technology platform. Um. Then he

1355
01:16:56,240 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 1: presented logically copies with nine patents, none of which are

1356
01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 1: the patents for functioning mRNA vaccines. Um. But but he

1357
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:11,479
Speaker 1: he claims to have patented mr and A technology. I

1358
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,479
Speaker 1: mean he did. It's technology that doesn't work and never

1359
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:18,559
Speaker 1: has and and never has worked and the patents are expired. Um. Anyway,

1360
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:21,000
Speaker 1: I need to past some ship. That just sounds like

1361
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:24,439
Speaker 1: a real easy way to make a good grift. Yeah. So,

1362
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, as we've seen with my but because because

1363
01:17:32,439 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 1: Malone has crafted this you know, narrative that I'm the

1364
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:37,439
Speaker 1: inventor of this thing. You know, like just like we've

1365
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 1: seen with my like COVID griff name Doctor's episode behind

1366
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 1: the Bastards, just a little shred of like medical authority

1367
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 1: can be more often transformed with propaganda into something much

1368
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:48,920
Speaker 1: greater than what it is, you know, whether that be

1369
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:51,519
Speaker 1: claiming to be the inventor of the m R and

1370
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:53,840
Speaker 1: A or you know, claiming to be the former head

1371
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:56,960
Speaker 1: scientist adviser. Neither of those have to actually be true

1372
01:17:57,000 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 1: to work, because propaganda makes it true via like repetition.

1373
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's the kind of thing where like

1374
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:07,040
Speaker 1: dunking on these guys like it's important here to correct

1375
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 1: the record. It doesn't do anything. No, the fact that

1376
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:12,960
Speaker 1: they're nothing that they say is true does not matter

1377
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 1: when it comes to them having an influence in the

1378
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:18,400
Speaker 1: community they have. If you get on Rogan, it doesn't

1379
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 1: like like you've already done the thing that you need

1380
01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:22,600
Speaker 1: to do to be able to to profit from this.

1381
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter that you're lying. A few months ago,

1382
01:18:25,400 --> 01:18:27,280
Speaker 1: Malone went on to Steve Bannon show to talk about

1383
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:30,320
Speaker 1: how the vaccines make cod worse worse actually, and you

1384
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:32,080
Speaker 1: know this is this is the equiped from Steve Bannon.

1385
01:18:32,439 --> 01:18:34,720
Speaker 1: You're hearing it from the individual who invented the M

1386
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 1: R and A vaccines and has dedicated his life to vaccines.

1387
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:41,080
Speaker 1: He's the opposite of an anti vaxer, right, So it's

1388
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:47,280
Speaker 1: it's that. So, yeah, start starting around June one, Malone

1389
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:51,120
Speaker 1: began to make the rounds you know, Bennon Tucker, Glenn

1390
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 1: beck Um and now Joe Rogan. So you know, starting

1391
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:58,360
Speaker 1: in June, he had like less than five thousand Twitter followers.

1392
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 1: Uh and just before his suspension at the end of

1393
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:05,639
Speaker 1: December for spreading misinformation, he had like over half million. Um.

1394
01:19:06,479 --> 01:19:12,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, so right after his Twitter suspension for lying

1395
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 1: about COVID and causing you know, misinformation to run to

1396
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:19,000
Speaker 1: run rampant around a health issue. Um, that's when Rogan

1397
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:21,439
Speaker 1: invited him on. It was right after he got suspended

1398
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:24,280
Speaker 1: from Twitter. And there's been one particular clip from the

1399
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: interview that has really caught like the far right's attention. Um,

1400
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:31,240
Speaker 1: you know, the tweet that's it's it's connected to is

1401
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 1: captioned on Joe Rogan. Dr Robert Malone suggests we are

1402
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 1: living through a mass formation psychosis. He explains how and

1403
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:40,240
Speaker 1: why this could happen and its effects. He draws analogy

1404
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:43,120
Speaker 1: to the nineteen twenties and thirties Germany. They had a

1405
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:47,320
Speaker 1: highly educated population and they went barking mad. Um, they

1406
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:50,360
Speaker 1: did not. They made a series of logical The Nazis

1407
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:52,720
Speaker 1: did not go mad. They were not crazy, They were

1408
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:55,760
Speaker 1: not out of their mind. They were doing they were

1409
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:58,559
Speaker 1: a large part of what they were doing was saying

1410
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:01,680
Speaker 1: things that they knew were were nonsense and lies in

1411
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 1: order to get elected because it riled people up. And

1412
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:06,880
Speaker 1: then a large chunk of their policy was figuring out, well,

1413
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 1: if this is the ship that we've been saying, how

1414
01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:11,719
Speaker 1: do we how do we translate that into policy again?

1415
01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:16,800
Speaker 1: Realms have been written on this by credible researchers. The

1416
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 1: people who ran the camps were not insane, although they

1417
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 1: were often deeply depressed and suicidal because it's not good

1418
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:26,919
Speaker 1: to run a death camp. They were all making rational decisions.

1419
01:20:26,960 --> 01:20:29,200
Speaker 1: And the people who let it happen, we're letting it

1420
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:34,000
Speaker 1: happen because it was dangerous and scary to interfere in

1421
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:36,720
Speaker 1: any way. They were all making rational decisions. There was

1422
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:40,640
Speaker 1: no insanity responsible for the Holocaust, which is worse like

1423
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,160
Speaker 1: and then everything, yeah, yeah, yeah, what they're like, they're

1424
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:45,320
Speaker 1: they're what they're doing is like they're they're they're they're

1425
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:47,040
Speaker 1: trying to give people a way out right like that.

1426
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:49,280
Speaker 1: You know this is this is sort of like, oh,

1427
01:20:49,439 --> 01:20:51,360
Speaker 1: it's well, the Nazis went insane. All the people who

1428
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:53,400
Speaker 1: followed them went and saying it's like, no, no, they don't.

1429
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:56,320
Speaker 1: You don't get that way out like you they chose

1430
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:59,599
Speaker 1: to do this. Yeah. The the scariest and most meaningful

1431
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:02,000
Speaker 1: lesson to take from the Holocaust is that you yourself

1432
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:04,000
Speaker 1: could be a part of a Holocaust, even if you

1433
01:21:04,120 --> 01:21:07,600
Speaker 1: didn't support the killing because it's extremely easy to not

1434
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:10,400
Speaker 1: get involved and stop something like that once it reaches

1435
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:12,680
Speaker 1: a certain level. And it's easy for the kind of

1436
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 1: political organizations that can make things like that possible to

1437
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 1: reach a point where they can carry that sort of

1438
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:22,479
Speaker 1: ship out because again, it's scary to fucking fight them. Uh.

1439
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:25,400
Speaker 1: Let's what the clips like a minute long, and I

1440
01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:28,519
Speaker 1: think it's worth watching to see both in the context

1441
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 1: of when Rogan decides to interject and when he decides

1442
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:35,679
Speaker 1: not to basically European intellectual inquiry into what the heck happened?

1443
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 1: I hate this guy already in the twenties and thirties,

1444
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, very intelligent, highly educated population and they went

1445
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:46,600
Speaker 1: barking mad um And how did that happen? Um? The

1446
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:50,640
Speaker 1: answer is mass formation psychosis when you have a society

1447
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:54,559
Speaker 1: that has become decoupled from each other and has free

1448
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:58,120
Speaker 1: floating anxiety in a sense that things don't make sense,

1449
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:02,760
Speaker 1: we can't understand, and then their attention gets focused by

1450
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 1: a leader or a series of events on one small point.

1451
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:10,720
Speaker 1: Just like hypnosis, they literally become hypnotized and can be

1452
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:14,360
Speaker 1: led anywhere. And one of the aspects of that phenomena

1453
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:17,240
Speaker 1: is the people that they identify as their leaders, the

1454
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:20,800
Speaker 1: ones typically that come in and say, you have this pain,

1455
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:22,960
Speaker 1: and I can solve it for you. I and I alone,

1456
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:26,519
Speaker 1: okay can fix this problem for you. Okay. Then they

1457
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 1: will lead. They will follow that person through how It

1458
01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether they lie to them or whatever. The

1459
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:37,240
Speaker 1: data are irrelevant. And furthermore, anybody who questions that narrative

1460
01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:41,320
Speaker 1: is to be immediately attacked. They are the other. This

1461
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:45,080
Speaker 1: is central to mass formation psychosis. And this is what

1462
01:22:45,240 --> 01:22:48,839
Speaker 1: has happened. We had all those conditions. If you remember

1463
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:53,240
Speaker 1: back before, everybody was complaining the world doesn't make sense

1464
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:57,120
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Um. And we're all isolated from each other,

1465
01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 1: we're all on our little tools, not connected socially anymore

1466
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:05,240
Speaker 1: except through social media. Um. And then this thing happened

1467
01:23:05,280 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 1: and everybody focused on it. That is how massformation psychosis happens.

1468
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:15,040
Speaker 1: And that is what's happened here. Horrible, completely wrong um

1469
01:23:15,160 --> 01:23:18,760
Speaker 1: in every single way. UM. They the Germans were not

1470
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:22,320
Speaker 1: confused because nothing made sense. They were angry because of

1471
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:24,160
Speaker 1: the terms of the Treaty of Verst Si That were

1472
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:27,519
Speaker 1: also angry because of what they saw as and what like,

1473
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:30,040
Speaker 1: because of a myth that had grown up about why

1474
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:32,559
Speaker 1: they had lost the First World War, which was spread

1475
01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:34,680
Speaker 1: by people who were the equivalent in that time of

1476
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:38,280
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan. They were scared of the left, of communism,

1477
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:41,559
Speaker 1: of disorder, of riots in the streets. Um and one

1478
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 1: win Hitler took power. Most Germans did not like him,

1479
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:48,760
Speaker 1: They did not blindly follow him. He gradually gained the

1480
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:52,000
Speaker 1: vast the support of the vast majority of Germany through

1481
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:54,600
Speaker 1: a number of different, very logical things. One thing that

1482
01:23:54,680 --> 01:23:56,479
Speaker 1: he did that got him a lot of support was

1483
01:23:56,560 --> 01:24:00,960
Speaker 1: he took businesses and homes and money Jewish people and

1484
01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:03,719
Speaker 1: from members of other groups that the Nazis were targeting,

1485
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:06,160
Speaker 1: and he gave it to Arians. There was a direct

1486
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 1: financial interest for a lot of people who got in

1487
01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:11,000
Speaker 1: line behind the Nazis, and he established a series of

1488
01:24:11,040 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 1: programs like the Strength through Joy program that really did

1489
01:24:13,600 --> 01:24:16,320
Speaker 1: benefit in a way that they had not known before

1490
01:24:16,680 --> 01:24:19,160
Speaker 1: the German working class um and A lot of this

1491
01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 1: was again subsidized through the appropriations of things that had

1492
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:24,920
Speaker 1: been owned by people that the Nazis were targeting. People

1493
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:27,360
Speaker 1: fell in line behind Hitler for logical reasons. He did

1494
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:29,800
Speaker 1: not reach the highest point of his support from the

1495
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:33,519
Speaker 1: German populace until the taking of Paris, which obviously that

1496
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:35,920
Speaker 1: was something that a lot of Germans supported. They had

1497
01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:38,400
Speaker 1: spent four years failing to take the city in World

1498
01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:42,679
Speaker 1: War One. UM. Anyway, sorry, it's all nonsense, it's all lies.

1499
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:46,439
Speaker 1: I think the reason why this is latching on so

1500
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,000
Speaker 1: much to people on the right, like people on the

1501
01:24:49,080 --> 01:24:51,880
Speaker 1: right who who don't consider themselves fascists, who who think

1502
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:55,000
Speaker 1: who would say Nazis are bad. Right, there's they still

1503
01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:58,360
Speaker 1: are latching onto this because it provides a way for

1504
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 1: them to not understand how fascism actually works, right, It

1505
01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:06,880
Speaker 1: provides an alternative explanation that makes them not have to

1506
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:11,320
Speaker 1: actually think about what fascism is. Um. And that's why

1507
01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 1: they're latching onto it. And it also is already it's

1508
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:17,919
Speaker 1: already a part of the conspiracies they have around vaccines

1509
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:22,479
Speaker 1: and power structures. So because because it's the conspiratorial basis,

1510
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:25,000
Speaker 1: instead of like thinking about power structures from like an

1511
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:29,439
Speaker 1: anarchist or like like hierarchy lens, it reinforces the world

1512
01:25:29,479 --> 01:25:31,559
Speaker 1: views they have and makes them not have to interrogate

1513
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:34,840
Speaker 1: the ones that they don't want to. UM. It sucks.

1514
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:39,120
Speaker 1: Malone's Substack goes into more of this and it's it's

1515
01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:41,240
Speaker 1: it's pretty bad. There's a this is a few quotes

1516
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:42,840
Speaker 1: that I think really kind of tied this together. And

1517
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 1: then he has some horrible statistics. Um, he says, as

1518
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:48,479
Speaker 1: many of you know, I've spent time researching and speaking

1519
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:51,240
Speaker 1: about mass psychosis theory. Most of what I've learned is

1520
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:54,479
Speaker 1: come from Dr Desmond. Dr Desmond is like the guy

1521
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:59,479
Speaker 1: who pointed this term um and uh malone writes Desmond.

1522
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:02,599
Speaker 1: Realize is that this form of mass hypnosis, the madness

1523
01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:05,599
Speaker 1: of crowds, can account for the strange phenomenon of about

1524
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 1: the population in the Western world becoming entranched with the

1525
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:13,680
Speaker 1: noble lies and dominant narrative concerning the safety and effectiveness

1526
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:18,560
Speaker 1: of the genetic vaccines, and both propagated and enforced by politicians,

1527
01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:23,280
Speaker 1: science bureaucrats, pharmaceutical companies, and legacy media. Of course, the

1528
01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:26,519
Speaker 1: obvious examples of massformation is Germany in the thirties and forties.

1529
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:29,200
Speaker 1: How could the German people, who are highly educated, very

1530
01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:32,200
Speaker 1: liberal in the classic sense, Western thinking people, how could

1531
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:33,880
Speaker 1: they go crazy and do what they did to the Jews?

1532
01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:36,679
Speaker 1: How could this happen to a civilized people. A leader

1533
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:39,360
Speaker 1: of a mass formation movement will use the platform to

1534
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:41,880
Speaker 1: continue to pump the group of information to focus on.

1535
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:44,280
Speaker 1: In the case of COVID nineteen, I like to use

1536
01:26:44,360 --> 01:26:47,679
Speaker 1: the term fear porn. Leaders through mainstream media and government

1537
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:50,840
Speaker 1: channel and government channels continuously feed the beast with more

1538
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:55,719
Speaker 1: messaging that further hypnotize their adherents. Studies suggest that mass

1539
01:26:55,760 --> 01:27:00,439
Speaker 1: formation follows a general distribution. People are in washedt and

1540
01:27:00,520 --> 01:27:05,280
Speaker 1: hypnotized fully doctor in the group narrative. In the middle

1541
01:27:05,520 --> 01:27:09,120
Speaker 1: are persuaded and may follow if no where the alternatives perceived,

1542
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:12,759
Speaker 1: and thirty percent will fight the narrative. Those who rebel

1543
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:14,920
Speaker 1: and fight against the narrative become the enemy of the

1544
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:19,920
Speaker 1: brainwashed and the primary target of aggression. So that's the

1545
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:23,120
Speaker 1: way he thinks. That is how which is really it's

1546
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:26,840
Speaker 1: really subject like in terms of how he's building a

1547
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:29,840
Speaker 1: narrative in his head and specifically building a narrative for

1548
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:33,280
Speaker 1: other people's heads to to view. Why do I feel

1549
01:27:33,360 --> 01:27:37,040
Speaker 1: distrustful of certain pieces of power but love other pieces

1550
01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:40,080
Speaker 1: of power? Yeah, And it's again like this idea that

1551
01:27:40,160 --> 01:27:43,520
Speaker 1: like well, Germany was liberals there Germany had an enormous

1552
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:46,920
Speaker 1: right wing movement, like it was a hugely conservative country

1553
01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:48,280
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, it would also had a

1554
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:51,080
Speaker 1: lot of leftist organizing and a lot of leftists in it,

1555
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:54,120
Speaker 1: especially after World War One, But like the Free Corps ship,

1556
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:58,400
Speaker 1: there were these massive, million strong right wing armed street

1557
01:27:58,439 --> 01:28:01,799
Speaker 1: movements that existed for the tyrety of the Weimar Republic.

1558
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:05,640
Speaker 1: Like it's again everything he says is wrong. Yeah, and

1559
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:09,440
Speaker 1: again it's like the notion that like are fully burnwashed,

1560
01:28:10,200 --> 01:28:13,200
Speaker 1: are in the middle of persuadable fight the narrative, it's

1561
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:15,120
Speaker 1: like these these people who are upset, these like these

1562
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,439
Speaker 1: specifically conservatives were obsessed about thinking like I would have

1563
01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:21,080
Speaker 1: fought the Nazis. And because they don't understand how fashion

1564
01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:24,479
Speaker 1: and works in powerdy namics, they don't understand how how

1565
01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 1: they're actually getting pulled into the same thing. But they

1566
01:28:27,120 --> 01:28:32,559
Speaker 1: still view themselves as the rebel right. They're right, yeah,

1567
01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:35,720
Speaker 1: like they're still focused on being Yeah, it's absolutely like

1568
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:38,040
Speaker 1: they're still focused on being the rebel and like we're

1569
01:28:38,080 --> 01:28:40,639
Speaker 1: rebelling against the vaccine that that is just like rebelling

1570
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 1: against the Nazis. And you're like, what, um, so, I

1571
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:48,479
Speaker 1: just want to say about those numbers if they're too

1572
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:51,120
Speaker 1: completely made up. Yeah. Yeah, when when people start throwing

1573
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:54,360
Speaker 1: even numbers statistic exactly like that, it's because they're lying. Yeah,

1574
01:28:54,479 --> 01:29:01,720
Speaker 1: it's because yeah, yeah, absolutely not not. Yeah, that's that's

1575
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:07,120
Speaker 1: complete nonsense. For one. Yeah, it's so so I get

1576
01:29:07,479 --> 01:29:10,360
Speaker 1: because now the other thing that happened around this interview,

1577
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:12,920
Speaker 1: because it didn't give a lot of traction among the right,

1578
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:15,400
Speaker 1: is that whenever these things gain traction, they also developed

1579
01:29:15,439 --> 01:29:17,880
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories that people are trying to suppress it. Like

1580
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:20,800
Speaker 1: look at the Google algorithm when you type in certain

1581
01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:23,599
Speaker 1: keywords like I know that. The day this was trending,

1582
01:29:23,600 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 1: it was like if you google Dr Malone the interviews,

1583
01:29:27,040 --> 01:29:29,120
Speaker 1: only like the sixth result, the first one is this

1584
01:29:29,240 --> 01:29:31,320
Speaker 1: YouTube video debunky and like I did this, and like no,

1585
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:34,559
Speaker 1: the first result was the obviously viral video of him

1586
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 1: saying the thing, Like they just they can take one

1587
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:40,840
Speaker 1: screenshot that maybe someone made or maybe because of one

1588
01:29:40,840 --> 01:29:43,800
Speaker 1: person's computer algorithm that's what gave them and use this

1589
01:29:43,880 --> 01:29:46,479
Speaker 1: as like evidence that this is the entire system of

1590
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:48,800
Speaker 1: the Internet suppressing the thing, Like no, the Internet wants

1591
01:29:48,880 --> 01:29:51,320
Speaker 1: things to go viral. Now, there's certain things where they

1592
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:53,880
Speaker 1: like trying to shut down the spread of of dangerous stuff.

1593
01:29:54,120 --> 01:29:57,400
Speaker 1: But this got very viral. This was not contained in

1594
01:29:57,439 --> 01:30:00,360
Speaker 1: any way. But because of this notion like they're trying

1595
01:30:00,400 --> 01:30:02,160
Speaker 1: to hide it, you know, it plays into their them

1596
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:04,800
Speaker 1: thinking they're like they're them thinking that they are the

1597
01:30:04,880 --> 01:30:08,280
Speaker 1: rebels or something. And there's also a very practical reason

1598
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:11,760
Speaker 1: why the people who particularly know that they're lying do this,

1599
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:15,560
Speaker 1: and it's because all of their success is based on

1600
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:19,040
Speaker 1: a foundation of the way in which YouTube and Facebook

1601
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:23,640
Speaker 1: and Twitter algorithmically amplified them and their predecessors, and they

1602
01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:27,800
Speaker 1: know that creating controversy over the fact that they're being suppressed,

1603
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:33,120
Speaker 1: um leads to more content that jin's that basically algorithmically

1604
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:35,760
Speaker 1: spreads their stuff more because more people are talking about it,

1605
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:38,760
Speaker 1: because other people's channels start debating it, because idiots on

1606
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:40,519
Speaker 1: the left are like, well, we should at least have

1607
01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:42,760
Speaker 1: them on platform them because we're anti censorship too, so

1608
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:45,040
Speaker 1: let's debate them. And like all of this stupid ship

1609
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,840
Speaker 1: feeds into spreading their stuff. It's a very intelligent strategy. Um,

1610
01:30:49,840 --> 01:30:52,519
Speaker 1: I hate it, but just in just in terms of

1611
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:54,920
Speaker 1: how ridiculous it is. I know, a few days ago,

1612
01:30:55,400 --> 01:31:00,880
Speaker 1: a Congressman Troy Knells said that I that the transcript

1613
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:03,759
Speaker 1: from the Joe Rogan Experience podcast episode with Dr Malone

1614
01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:07,360
Speaker 1: to the Congressional Record. Big tech wants to restrict your access,

1615
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:09,840
Speaker 1: your access to information, but they cannot censor of the

1616
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:13,800
Speaker 1: Congressional Record. Not te is the entire reason why you

1617
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:18,040
Speaker 1: know about these people. Yeah, yeah, entirely. So if we're

1618
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:21,400
Speaker 1: not for big Tech, Joe Rogan would be narrating videos

1619
01:31:21,479 --> 01:31:26,640
Speaker 1: of robots fighting. So Jack Sobiak got real into this

1620
01:31:26,920 --> 01:31:29,240
Speaker 1: because he loves anything that goes viral. If it weren't

1621
01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:31,760
Speaker 1: for big Tech, Jacks Beak would have died in the

1622
01:31:31,880 --> 01:31:36,120
Speaker 1: ditch of an oxycontent overdose. So he got real into it.

1623
01:31:36,240 --> 01:31:38,640
Speaker 1: He changed his like he changed his Twitter name to

1624
01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:43,320
Speaker 1: Jack mass Formation, psychosis psychosa Beck or some bullshit like that.

1625
01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:48,240
Speaker 1: Stupid and it was. It was tweeting about a NonStop

1626
01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:50,719
Speaker 1: for a week and like like a kid learning about

1627
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:54,400
Speaker 1: a new topic because of synchronicity' He's gonna like projected

1628
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:57,160
Speaker 1: onto everything he sees now because like this this new

1629
01:31:57,280 --> 01:31:59,840
Speaker 1: all encompassing topic that makes you avoid what fashions an

1630
01:31:59,840 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 1: act really is and then point out at the things

1631
01:32:02,479 --> 01:32:04,879
Speaker 1: you don't like because of course, he's gonna apply to everything.

1632
01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:08,639
Speaker 1: He He made a tweet right before January six, um

1633
01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:13,679
Speaker 1: as the anniversary of the capitol intermpted ku thing Regime

1634
01:32:13,760 --> 01:32:16,679
Speaker 1: media has launched a propaganda push against Ashley Babbitt today

1635
01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:20,919
Speaker 1: to psychologically prep their flock for the upcoming mass formation

1636
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:25,280
Speaker 1: event planned for January six this week. This this is

1637
01:32:25,320 --> 01:32:30,080
Speaker 1: called priming as a textbook mass formation theory tactic, wait

1638
01:32:30,200 --> 01:32:35,840
Speaker 1: till you see what comes next? And six today has anything?

1639
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:40,439
Speaker 1: What happened? Goddamn thing? They got fucking lin Manuel Morenda

1640
01:32:40,560 --> 01:32:47,400
Speaker 1: to sing songs? Did you see that that wasn't He

1641
01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:50,240
Speaker 1: might have said something in the beginning that was due,

1642
01:32:50,280 --> 01:32:53,760
Speaker 1: but the performance has been played before on other things. Well,

1643
01:32:53,840 --> 01:32:55,800
Speaker 1: and I am you know what, if we're taught trying

1644
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:59,320
Speaker 1: to reach across the aisle, I am willing to admit

1645
01:32:59,439 --> 01:33:02,160
Speaker 1: that the pop ularity of lin Manuel Miranda might be

1646
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:09,960
Speaker 1: a mass formation psychosis. Absolutely, the popularity of Hamilton's is

1647
01:33:09,960 --> 01:33:14,000
Speaker 1: a vest formation psychosis. Absolutely, we're just being assholes, But like,

1648
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:16,880
Speaker 1: like seriously like it again, but it doesn't. It does.

1649
01:33:17,040 --> 01:33:21,280
Speaker 1: The fuck is when it when it comes to again,

1650
01:33:21,439 --> 01:33:24,080
Speaker 1: like the fact that he said there's gonna be this

1651
01:33:24,720 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 1: whatever psych mass formation psychosis event on the anniversary of

1652
01:33:29,840 --> 01:33:31,720
Speaker 1: January six, then it's going to be huge watch for

1653
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:35,400
Speaker 1: and nothing happens, doesn't matter, never matters, will never matter,

1654
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 1: um because again, like it's it's I think one of

1655
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:41,920
Speaker 1: the issues that we have here is the degree to

1656
01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:46,040
Speaker 1: which brain brainwashing and hypnosis and stuff are talked about

1657
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:48,559
Speaker 1: within kind of discussions of a cultic milieu when they're

1658
01:33:48,640 --> 01:33:50,840
Speaker 1: not really a factor, not a factor in cults, not

1659
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:53,720
Speaker 1: nearly as much as you think. Yeah, and not in

1660
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:55,280
Speaker 1: the way that you think. There's things that like you

1661
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:58,559
Speaker 1: could call brainwashing, but the the and you could even

1662
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:02,840
Speaker 1: maybe call hypnosis, although that's a lot murkier, it is

1663
01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:06,600
Speaker 1: a very technical, Yeah, but but the what actually like

1664
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:09,880
Speaker 1: the stuff that's actually happens. Again, it's always much more

1665
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:12,920
Speaker 1: logical and rational if you can just inhabit the mental

1666
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:16,920
Speaker 1: space of the people who are in those communities because

1667
01:34:16,960 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 1: of what they're primed to believe first and because of

1668
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:22,040
Speaker 1: what is happening socially, because of the degree to which

1669
01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:25,120
Speaker 1: they isolate themselves from people who are outside of that bubble.

1670
01:34:25,439 --> 01:34:28,200
Speaker 1: Like that's why you it's so hard to get them out.

1671
01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:31,320
Speaker 1: It's not that like magically their brains have been taken over.

1672
01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:34,519
Speaker 1: It's that they have pretty methodically been put into a

1673
01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:39,840
Speaker 1: position where rejecting what is being told to them within

1674
01:34:39,960 --> 01:34:45,200
Speaker 1: this context is immensely more painful, um than just continuing

1675
01:34:45,280 --> 01:34:47,880
Speaker 1: to believe things that are not true. Um. And there

1676
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:51,080
Speaker 1: are more consequences for it, you know. Um, you lose

1677
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:54,120
Speaker 1: a support network, you lose a great deal of of

1678
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:57,439
Speaker 1: of your own opinion of yourself and your self worth

1679
01:34:57,560 --> 01:35:00,639
Speaker 1: if you start to reject this stuff. Um. And once

1680
01:35:00,680 --> 01:35:02,559
Speaker 1: you can trap people in that, it's the same way

1681
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:06,240
Speaker 1: that like scientology works. Once you can trap people in that, Um,

1682
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:09,160
Speaker 1: it's the evidence of their eyes and the fact that

1683
01:35:09,280 --> 01:35:12,080
Speaker 1: like they're obviously being lied to and the things that

1684
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:14,160
Speaker 1: they're being told about don't come to pass. It's this.

1685
01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:16,840
Speaker 1: It's the reason why you have a bunch of apocalyptic

1686
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:18,840
Speaker 1: cults who say the days the world's going to end

1687
01:35:18,920 --> 01:35:21,200
Speaker 1: on this day and time that day in time comes,

1688
01:35:21,280 --> 01:35:25,200
Speaker 1: the world doesn't end, and the cult goes on. You know, yeah,

1689
01:35:25,320 --> 01:35:28,360
Speaker 1: it's pretty it's pretty ridiculous. This this whole thing was

1690
01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:32,880
Speaker 1: started by this professor of clinical psychology at at a

1691
01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:36,840
Speaker 1: university in Belgium, Matthias Desmott. He seems to have a

1692
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:41,400
Speaker 1: pretty bad understanding of history and actual like power structures,

1693
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:45,320
Speaker 1: and does not know the least bit about fascism um,

1694
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:47,240
Speaker 1: and has tried to craft this thing to fill in

1695
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:50,400
Speaker 1: the gaps in his own knowledge and applies it to everything.

1696
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:53,519
Speaker 1: And I've read some of his stuff. It's it's nonsense. Um.

1697
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:56,880
Speaker 1: Again that just like the doctors who talked about it,

1698
01:35:56,880 --> 01:35:59,080
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, he's using this also as a way

1699
01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:01,800
Speaker 1: to explain how COVID is not real and how the

1700
01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:06,360
Speaker 1: vaccine is a is a ploy to do bad thing.

1701
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:12,800
Speaker 1: It's it's all ridiculous. It's irresponsible, um. And they're using

1702
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:15,280
Speaker 1: it as a tactic and hopefully it's just gonna blow over.

1703
01:36:15,479 --> 01:36:17,760
Speaker 1: But I'm sure it'll pop up everyone every once in

1704
01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:19,640
Speaker 1: a while, again, just like it popped up, you know,

1705
01:36:19,920 --> 01:36:23,519
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago. But that's that's really all. I

1706
01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:25,479
Speaker 1: all I want to get into it. I I could

1707
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 1: say more, but I think we have said enough. I

1708
01:36:28,120 --> 01:36:37,639
Speaker 1: think that's said enough. Um, all right, well fuck it, Yeah,

1709
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:42,400
Speaker 1: that's it. That's all I've got. UM Read This Way

1710
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:46,160
Speaker 1: for the Gas Ladies and Gentlemen by Thaddius Borowski. Um.

1711
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:51,280
Speaker 1: It will, it will have a major impact on the

1712
01:36:51,320 --> 01:36:53,479
Speaker 1: way you see the entire world if you if you

1713
01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:57,680
Speaker 1: actually read it. Um, there's some incredible pieces in there.

1714
01:36:57,720 --> 01:36:59,640
Speaker 1: One of one of the things that the Taddy has

1715
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:02,360
Speaker 1: points out, does that like people only ever have like

1716
01:37:02,560 --> 01:37:06,640
Speaker 1: one kind of language for for talking about like the

1717
01:37:06,760 --> 01:37:10,000
Speaker 1: things that they feel, where whether it's something they they

1718
01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:13,519
Speaker 1: kind of vaguely care about or something they care about

1719
01:37:13,600 --> 01:37:16,519
Speaker 1: enough to murder over. And so when people engage in

1720
01:37:16,640 --> 01:37:19,720
Speaker 1: acts of like horrific violence on a mass scale, they

1721
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:22,800
Speaker 1: often do it looking and acting like they would if

1722
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:26,120
Speaker 1: they were irritated at somebody in traffic. Um. And it's

1723
01:37:26,160 --> 01:37:28,439
Speaker 1: the most unsettling thing about being the victim of a

1724
01:37:28,520 --> 01:37:31,400
Speaker 1: genocide that you don't see the kind of hate and

1725
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:33,320
Speaker 1: the kind of rage and the kind of like what

1726
01:37:33,439 --> 01:37:35,760
Speaker 1: you would expect someone would need to be amped up to.

1727
01:37:36,320 --> 01:37:39,400
Speaker 1: It's more of like you see, more like kind of

1728
01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:42,599
Speaker 1: boredom and and irritation and all that stuff. Like it's

1729
01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:48,160
Speaker 1: not anyway read read Read Daddy a Sbarowski. Um, He's

1730
01:37:49,040 --> 01:37:52,559
Speaker 1: I desperately wish Joe Rogan would just sit and narrate

1731
01:37:52,680 --> 01:37:56,360
Speaker 1: this book on his show because it would do actually

1732
01:37:56,400 --> 01:37:59,880
Speaker 1: a service to the world anyway. Um. That's that's the

1733
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:18,479
Speaker 1: episode could it happen here. It maybe I Robert Evans,

1734
01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:24,479
Speaker 1: host of this podcast, UM to introduce this today's episode,

1735
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:31,040
Speaker 1: which is not my episode, it's it's Andrew's, uh episode.

1736
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:35,120
Speaker 1: So how are you doing, Andrew? How do you feel

1737
01:38:35,200 --> 01:38:38,639
Speaker 1: in that introduction? I'm good. I think it's um could

1738
01:38:38,720 --> 01:38:41,040
Speaker 1: use some work, but you know we'll shop it. Yeah.

1739
01:38:41,120 --> 01:38:43,080
Speaker 1: We we never work shop anything. We just we just

1740
01:38:43,280 --> 01:38:46,080
Speaker 1: roll right ahead. UM. So abolished work and all that

1741
01:38:47,240 --> 01:38:50,439
Speaker 1: abolished introductions you know start in the middle. Why don't

1742
01:38:50,439 --> 01:38:53,360
Speaker 1: we just do that now in media res podcast? Yeah,

1743
01:38:53,400 --> 01:38:56,439
Speaker 1: we'll make every podcast like Finnigan's Wake, where the opening

1744
01:38:56,479 --> 01:38:59,280
Speaker 1: of the podcast is like halfway through a paragraph at

1745
01:38:59,320 --> 01:39:01,320
Speaker 1: the end of the aerographs at the end of the

1746
01:39:01,400 --> 01:39:05,439
Speaker 1: episode starts every everything will be a circle. Let's just Sophie.

1747
01:39:06,040 --> 01:39:10,240
Speaker 1: I think that's the new plan. Okay, okay, Andrew, what

1748
01:39:10,280 --> 01:39:12,640
Speaker 1: do you guys for us today? Right? So, today I

1749
01:39:12,680 --> 01:39:18,720
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about bio regions and bioregionalism. It's uh

1750
01:39:19,320 --> 01:39:25,519
Speaker 1: philosophy slash movement slash way of viewing things is there's

1751
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:27,280
Speaker 1: a lot. So today we'll be exploring what it is,

1752
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:31,600
Speaker 1: where it came from, and the rule I see it

1753
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:36,040
Speaker 1: playing in our strides towards anarchy. But first, of course

1754
01:39:36,560 --> 01:39:40,800
Speaker 1: we should really get some context bioregionalism. Have any of

1755
01:39:40,840 --> 01:39:44,400
Speaker 1: you heard of it? By the way, I have heard

1756
01:39:44,439 --> 01:39:53,200
Speaker 1: the tournament right right, So it's actually pretty recent, um,

1757
01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:57,040
Speaker 1: all things considered. UM. It was coined as a tomb

1758
01:39:57,120 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 1: by a guy named Alan Van new Cook, founder of

1759
01:40:00,479 --> 01:40:05,639
Speaker 1: the Institute for Bioregional Research in and as a movement

1760
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:07,479
Speaker 1: it really gained a lot of popularity in the late

1761
01:40:07,600 --> 01:40:13,400
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies in the Osaks, Appalachia, Hudson River, and San

1762
01:40:13,439 --> 01:40:17,560
Speaker 1: Francisco Bay Area regions. UM. They had a conference in

1763
01:40:17,640 --> 01:40:22,920
Speaker 1: a prairie, interestingly enough near Kansas City, and they've also

1764
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:28,120
Speaker 1: had conferences in the Squamish bioregion of British Columbia as

1765
01:40:28,200 --> 01:40:31,160
Speaker 1: well as the Gulf of Main bio region on the Atlantic.

1766
01:40:32,479 --> 01:40:34,360
Speaker 1: And of course, with all these different people coming together

1767
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:39,599
Speaker 1: sharing all their different ideas talking about cool nature stuff,

1768
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:42,919
Speaker 1: they developed a sort of a platform which they outline

1769
01:40:42,960 --> 01:40:48,640
Speaker 1: in papers on subjects changing from agriculture to forestry, to arts, economics,

1770
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:53,599
Speaker 1: to community. So while it was a very North American

1771
01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:58,759
Speaker 1: focused movement and philosophy at first, it has also expanded

1772
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:03,120
Speaker 1: to Europe in Australia and these groups there are hundreds

1773
01:41:03,200 --> 01:41:06,240
Speaker 1: of them all over. Um. They get involved with local

1774
01:41:06,320 --> 01:41:10,200
Speaker 1: ecological work like preservation and restoration, plumic culture or that.

1775
01:41:10,720 --> 01:41:12,640
Speaker 1: And they also form networks so they would link on

1776
01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:17,799
Speaker 1: specific issues like water conservation or organic farming or cheap planting.

1777
01:41:18,840 --> 01:41:22,639
Speaker 1: And of course bioreginal groups also get involved in attempts

1778
01:41:22,640 --> 01:41:26,760
Speaker 1: to make communities more self sufficient by mapping and utilizing

1779
01:41:27,000 --> 01:41:31,240
Speaker 1: local assets and well, as you come to see um,

1780
01:41:31,520 --> 01:41:35,759
Speaker 1: bioregionalism and maps kind of go hand in hand away

1781
01:41:36,360 --> 01:41:38,760
Speaker 1: um because it really is about that sort of big

1782
01:41:38,840 --> 01:41:43,400
Speaker 1: picture looking at the earth and the environment and outplace

1783
01:41:43,479 --> 01:41:49,080
Speaker 1: in it. So what is bioregionalism exactly? In essence, it's

1784
01:41:49,120 --> 01:41:53,040
Speaker 1: a philosophy based around the organization of political, cultural, and

1785
01:41:53,360 --> 01:41:59,680
Speaker 1: economic systems around naturally defined areas called bioregions. Sort of bioregions.

1786
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:04,960
Speaker 1: There are areas defined through physical and environmental features, including

1787
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:10,439
Speaker 1: watershed boundaries, soil and terrain characteristics, flora, fauna, and climate.

1788
01:42:12,880 --> 01:42:17,120
Speaker 1: Bioregionalism also stresses the determination of a bioregion is a

1789
01:42:17,240 --> 01:42:22,760
Speaker 1: cultural phenomenon and emphasizes local populations, local knowledge, and local solutions.

1790
01:42:23,439 --> 01:42:31,200
Speaker 1: Because humans are actually surprisingly part of nature. Our cultures

1791
01:42:31,320 --> 01:42:34,400
Speaker 1: or settlements they arise from nature. They arise from the

1792
01:42:34,479 --> 01:42:39,040
Speaker 1: characteristics of the bio regions that we inhabit. So I

1793
01:42:39,080 --> 01:42:41,040
Speaker 1: mean that to me is a clear bradish routine and

1794
01:42:41,160 --> 01:42:45,280
Speaker 1: bioregionalism and land back. And it also points to me, um,

1795
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:50,080
Speaker 1: the fact that while bioregionalism maybe a fairly recent philosophy

1796
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:55,280
Speaker 1: starsh movement, its roots and the ideas it presents are

1797
01:42:55,320 --> 01:42:59,800
Speaker 1: nothing new, you know, Um, I mean bioregionalism posits that,

1798
01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:03,560
Speaker 1: you know, human societies must learn to honor our bioregions

1799
01:43:03,680 --> 01:43:05,519
Speaker 1: and the connections between them if we have to be

1800
01:43:05,600 --> 01:43:09,320
Speaker 1: ecologically sound. And this was sell active is really old news,

1801
01:43:09,439 --> 01:43:12,080
Speaker 1: you know, for the indigenous peoples who have maintained these

1802
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:15,760
Speaker 1: lands and been stewards of these lands for thousands of years.

1803
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:22,720
Speaker 1: I think that thinking in a bioregional scale allows us

1804
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:28,680
Speaker 1: to establish regenerative and circular economies, effectively restore local ecosystems,

1805
01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:33,559
Speaker 1: restructure our systems using ecological design principles, and of course

1806
01:43:33,760 --> 01:43:37,560
Speaker 1: deepen our cultural connections to the land we inhabit. So

1807
01:43:38,800 --> 01:43:46,080
Speaker 1: that to me really stresses the importance of bioregionalism in

1808
01:43:47,720 --> 01:43:53,600
Speaker 1: our approach to environmental issues. Before I continue, I just

1809
01:43:53,680 --> 01:43:56,960
Speaker 1: wanted to say that for those who want to like visualize,

1810
01:43:57,120 --> 01:43:59,320
Speaker 1: because I know this is a podcast, you can only

1811
01:43:59,360 --> 01:44:04,160
Speaker 1: hear my voice. UM One Earth has a pretty decent

1812
01:44:04,240 --> 01:44:06,160
Speaker 1: map of bio regions on their website, so you could

1813
01:44:06,160 --> 01:44:10,080
Speaker 1: just google bio regions and it should come up. They

1814
01:44:10,160 --> 01:44:15,960
Speaker 1: basically have like five bio regions on their map, and well,

1815
01:44:16,000 --> 01:44:19,680
Speaker 1: according to that map, trend that is part of bioregion

1816
01:44:20,040 --> 01:44:25,040
Speaker 1: anti NT standing for neotropic and E standing for East,

1817
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:32,960
Speaker 1: and tadas grouped with South America and particularly the Venezuela

1818
01:44:33,640 --> 01:44:39,000
Speaker 1: Guyana's region for obvious reasons being that the Urn cou

1819
01:44:39,439 --> 01:44:43,880
Speaker 1: and other rivers that come from the Amazon flew out

1820
01:44:44,120 --> 01:44:55,080
Speaker 1: to you know, trend ads shows really so clunky segue um.

1821
01:44:55,439 --> 01:44:59,120
Speaker 1: There are a couple of different concepts that one might

1822
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:04,120
Speaker 1: want to keep in mind when approaching or attempting to

1823
01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:10,880
Speaker 1: curate a bio regional understanding of the world. Of course,

1824
01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:16,400
Speaker 1: perspective and a bioregional perspective is important, and it's basically

1825
01:45:16,479 --> 01:45:21,519
Speaker 1: one that seeks to ensure that political boundaries match ecological boundaries,

1826
01:45:22,400 --> 01:45:26,040
Speaker 1: highlighting the unique ecology of the bio region, encouraging the

1827
01:45:26,280 --> 01:45:29,680
Speaker 1: consumption of local foods where possible, encouraging the use of

1828
01:45:29,840 --> 01:45:33,599
Speaker 1: local materials where possible, and encouraging the cultivation of needs

1829
01:45:33,640 --> 01:45:38,080
Speaker 1: of plans in the region. I will point out like

1830
01:45:38,240 --> 01:45:41,439
Speaker 1: from now that from what I've read about bioregionalism and

1831
01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:44,600
Speaker 1: the talks that I've seen, there are definitely some you know,

1832
01:45:45,200 --> 01:45:49,920
Speaker 1: liberal sensibilities, some capitalist realism um in the way that

1833
01:45:50,160 --> 01:45:57,519
Speaker 1: some bioregionalists talk about, you know, things like organizing our

1834
01:45:57,880 --> 01:46:04,320
Speaker 1: politics and our states and stuff around bio regions. Obviously,

1835
01:46:04,640 --> 01:46:07,439
Speaker 1: you know, they are pushing things pretty far because they

1836
01:46:07,520 --> 01:46:13,599
Speaker 1: do talk about, you know, going and really orienting our

1837
01:46:13,720 --> 01:46:19,400
Speaker 1: economy around you know, bio regions and thinking in terms

1838
01:46:19,479 --> 01:46:22,519
Speaker 1: of that. But at the same time, there's still like

1839
01:46:23,400 --> 01:46:26,160
Speaker 1: an almost passive acceptance in some of the readings that

1840
01:46:26,200 --> 01:46:29,160
Speaker 1: I've seen of capitalism. You know, I think that's pretty

1841
01:46:29,200 --> 01:46:32,160
Speaker 1: common in a lot of what I like to call

1842
01:46:32,680 --> 01:46:37,719
Speaker 1: almost radical um ideas and philosophies and stuff. Of Course,

1843
01:46:37,800 --> 01:46:40,880
Speaker 1: when I approached these ideas and these philosophies and stuff,

1844
01:46:41,439 --> 01:46:46,160
Speaker 1: I always try to, you know, keep that anarchist analytical

1845
01:46:46,280 --> 01:46:52,440
Speaker 1: freework in my head, understanding that you know, these ideas

1846
01:46:53,640 --> 01:46:58,280
Speaker 1: are still being filtered through announcemately like campus society and

1847
01:46:58,360 --> 01:47:01,840
Speaker 1: capitalist world and too you don't want to try to

1848
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:06,360
Speaker 1: navigate that and sift that out and really get the

1849
01:47:07,200 --> 01:47:13,000
Speaker 1: nuggets of gold within these ideas. I don't see states, UM,

1850
01:47:13,120 --> 01:47:14,960
Speaker 1: and I think you would agree with me being the

1851
01:47:15,240 --> 01:47:20,160
Speaker 1: path out of you know, that's a climate catastrophe UM.

1852
01:47:20,800 --> 01:47:23,759
Speaker 1: For those who have been reading like you know, Against

1853
01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:27,920
Speaker 1: the Green and you know Grievers work, you know that

1854
01:47:28,280 --> 01:47:32,720
Speaker 1: states have been pretty equalsider from their very inception. So

1855
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:37,479
Speaker 1: I think that if power regionalism would be effective, I

1856
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:40,280
Speaker 1: think it would be best if it stayed away from

1857
01:47:40,320 --> 01:47:46,800
Speaker 1: that sort of status um conception. They do emphasize localism

1858
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:51,680
Speaker 1: UM as the political localism, but it's always in the

1859
01:47:51,760 --> 01:47:57,760
Speaker 1: context of was often within the context of like the

1860
01:47:57,840 --> 01:48:01,920
Speaker 1: relationship between the local and esteem and that sort of

1861
01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:05,040
Speaker 1: thing almost like a kind of I don't know if

1862
01:48:05,040 --> 01:48:09,720
Speaker 1: I'm using this to in correctly, but like monarchism, does

1863
01:48:09,760 --> 01:48:12,560
Speaker 1: that makes sense some kind was it? Some kind of

1864
01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:17,760
Speaker 1: like municipalist almost something like that, But yeah, yeah, we

1865
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:21,200
Speaker 1: should probably talk a little bit about like what what

1866
01:48:21,360 --> 01:48:26,120
Speaker 1: minarchism and municipalism are um, just so people don't get

1867
01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:30,560
Speaker 1: kind of caught up on the terms UM, and particularly

1868
01:48:30,640 --> 01:48:33,479
Speaker 1: I think that like within a context of like the

1869
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:37,200
Speaker 1: United States, UM municipalism is kind of an easier way

1870
01:48:37,280 --> 01:48:40,759
Speaker 1: to sell folks who may be more conservative on certain

1871
01:48:40,800 --> 01:48:45,560
Speaker 1: anarchists principles. It's basically the idea of yeah, strong community

1872
01:48:45,920 --> 01:48:50,240
Speaker 1: sort of control and autonomy UM, as opposed to uh,

1873
01:48:51,120 --> 01:48:54,760
Speaker 1: strong overarching kind of federal or state control over over

1874
01:48:56,000 --> 01:48:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, different communities. Yeah. Yeah, because say menarchisms kind

1875
01:48:59,920 --> 01:49:03,080
Speaker 1: of like a weird grab bag thing that's like, yeah,

1876
01:49:03,720 --> 01:49:05,840
Speaker 1: it's it's it's sort of like, Okay, so you want

1877
01:49:05,840 --> 01:49:07,760
Speaker 1: to be in an arco capitalist, but you can't because

1878
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:10,560
Speaker 1: you're just smart enough to realize that you can't have

1879
01:49:10,680 --> 01:49:14,000
Speaker 1: a rights out of state. So either the Minerica state

1880
01:49:14,120 --> 01:49:16,240
Speaker 1: is the only thing it does is enforced property rights.

1881
01:49:17,320 --> 01:49:21,240
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think that's a slightly terrifying vision, but

1882
01:49:21,320 --> 01:49:24,960
Speaker 1: I think but you know, it's it's yeah, it's a

1883
01:49:25,160 --> 01:49:29,160
Speaker 1: more self away than the average Yeah, you know this

1884
01:49:29,360 --> 01:49:33,960
Speaker 1: is yeah, And I think that is less of a

1885
01:49:34,040 --> 01:49:37,920
Speaker 1: focus specifically on property rights and more of more based

1886
01:49:37,920 --> 01:49:42,479
Speaker 1: out of an understanding that UM like strong hierarchical federal

1887
01:49:43,200 --> 01:49:46,879
Speaker 1: or even state level control UM generally winds up creating

1888
01:49:47,360 --> 01:49:50,240
Speaker 1: reach a lot of a significant amount of like regional

1889
01:49:50,640 --> 01:49:54,760
Speaker 1: um uh, what's the word I'm looking for, um inequalities

1890
01:49:55,040 --> 01:49:57,439
Speaker 1: UM and and is responsible for a lot of like

1891
01:49:57,560 --> 01:50:00,479
Speaker 1: ecological devastation and whatnot. This idea that you can have

1892
01:50:01,320 --> 01:50:02,840
Speaker 1: like like one of the things that you would have

1893
01:50:02,960 --> 01:50:05,320
Speaker 1: with an actual municipalist system, as you wouldn't be allowed

1894
01:50:05,400 --> 01:50:08,560
Speaker 1: to operate a company like Coke Industries that's able to

1895
01:50:09,200 --> 01:50:12,840
Speaker 1: UM you know, be based out of I think Kentucky, UM,

1896
01:50:13,160 --> 01:50:16,200
Speaker 1: but operate a series of refineries in the Gulf Coast

1897
01:50:16,400 --> 01:50:20,880
Speaker 1: that render large sections of that area uninhabitable because you

1898
01:50:20,920 --> 01:50:24,080
Speaker 1: would leave kind of control over what can be actually

1899
01:50:24,120 --> 01:50:25,800
Speaker 1: done in that area to the people who live there,

1900
01:50:25,880 --> 01:50:28,920
Speaker 1: rather than being able to have UM a corporation by

1901
01:50:29,040 --> 01:50:31,920
Speaker 1: land there and have its right to pollute enforced by

1902
01:50:31,960 --> 01:50:34,160
Speaker 1: the state. Right. That's kind of like one little example.

1903
01:50:34,640 --> 01:50:38,080
Speaker 1: UM there's municipalists. The system in northeast Syria and Rojava

1904
01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:40,519
Speaker 1: is is sort of a municipalist system and one of

1905
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:44,400
Speaker 1: the specifically libertarian. Yeah, I mean there's an distinction between

1906
01:50:44,439 --> 01:50:49,880
Speaker 1: like well generally and yeah, we're we're getting into the

1907
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:51,800
Speaker 1: weeds a little bit here, but these are these are

1908
01:50:52,200 --> 01:50:54,240
Speaker 1: like that's kind of the basics of what those terms means,

1909
01:50:54,280 --> 01:50:56,439
Speaker 1: just so that people don't get lost when you when

1910
01:50:56,479 --> 01:50:58,559
Speaker 1: you bring them up, because I think a lot of folks, um,

1911
01:50:59,080 --> 01:51:04,760
Speaker 1: you know, down't have necessarily that kind of those definitions,

1912
01:51:04,800 --> 01:51:06,439
Speaker 1: don't just pop up in their head when you use

1913
01:51:06,520 --> 01:51:10,800
Speaker 1: that word, right right, yeah, fair enough. UM. I also

1914
01:51:10,840 --> 01:51:16,280
Speaker 1: mentioned that states have been eco sidle from the inceptions,

1915
01:51:16,320 --> 01:51:18,680
Speaker 1: I feel like I should probably trying to find that

1916
01:51:18,840 --> 01:51:25,280
Speaker 1: as well. UM equal side and ecosidal is um is

1917
01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:29,799
Speaker 1: basically um, this idea that came out to the environmentalist movement.

1918
01:51:30,760 --> 01:51:34,439
Speaker 1: UM meant to points to the surveyor harm to nature,

1919
01:51:34,680 --> 01:51:38,680
Speaker 1: the last damage and destruction of ecosystems that's you know,

1920
01:51:38,840 --> 01:51:43,760
Speaker 1: caused over decades by you know these companies and really

1921
01:51:43,800 --> 01:51:48,040
Speaker 1: by the system as a whole. So it's often viewed

1922
01:51:48,120 --> 01:51:51,400
Speaker 1: through like a legal lens, as in, you know, these

1923
01:51:52,320 --> 01:51:58,519
Speaker 1: companies should be tried for their crimes um and as

1924
01:51:58,720 --> 01:52:01,160
Speaker 1: like for committing go side and that kind of thing,

1925
01:52:01,360 --> 01:52:05,120
Speaker 1: because it's often viewed like as like illegal like lower

1926
01:52:05,120 --> 01:52:07,439
Speaker 1: street put in please to classifiy equoside as a crime

1927
01:52:07,479 --> 01:52:10,839
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. Um. Only a few countries

1928
01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:14,720
Speaker 1: have done that, like actually quotified eco side but it

1929
01:52:14,920 --> 01:52:19,760
Speaker 1: is something that um, so environmentalists pushed, you know, really

1930
01:52:19,800 --> 01:52:24,720
Speaker 1: raise awareness as a crime against humanity and the planet. Yeah,

1931
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:26,479
Speaker 1: I think it's also kind of important to understand with

1932
01:52:26,520 --> 01:52:29,599
Speaker 1: Equal Side is that like there's a lot of focus

1933
01:52:29,720 --> 01:52:33,439
Speaker 1: I think in like left like in fronmutal movements just

1934
01:52:33,520 --> 01:52:36,200
Speaker 1: purely incorporations and even if you go back to the

1935
01:52:36,920 --> 01:52:39,240
Speaker 1: companies memes just like Hunter companies destroying the planets like

1936
01:52:39,280 --> 01:52:42,120
Speaker 1: well yeah, like like half of the merse they don't. Yeah,

1937
01:52:42,360 --> 01:52:44,519
Speaker 1: and so you know, yeah, this this is something like

1938
01:52:44,760 --> 01:52:46,400
Speaker 1: like with Equal Side, it's like yeah, it's like it's

1939
01:52:46,400 --> 01:52:48,880
Speaker 1: not just corporations that do this. It's you know, it's

1940
01:52:48,960 --> 01:52:51,000
Speaker 1: it's the the state as a structure. It's the state

1941
01:52:51,080 --> 01:52:53,920
Speaker 1: as the institution, is the state as exactly, Yes, their

1942
01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:56,800
Speaker 1: agencies as they're sort of and that's that's what I

1943
01:52:56,920 --> 01:52:59,880
Speaker 1: try to Like, what I realized is is kind of

1944
01:53:00,000 --> 01:53:01,880
Speaker 1: sports now and I guess this is kind of like

1945
01:53:02,479 --> 01:53:07,400
Speaker 1: slowly like shifting away from birationalism, but that's fine. Um.

1946
01:53:08,520 --> 01:53:11,320
Speaker 1: What I will say that I've tried to like consciously,

1947
01:53:11,720 --> 01:53:17,080
Speaker 1: um sort of put into practice is emphasizing that like

1948
01:53:17,560 --> 01:53:22,720
Speaker 1: capitalism is not the only issue, you know, Um, like

1949
01:53:23,560 --> 01:53:26,160
Speaker 1: and those people like try to separate capitalism on the state,

1950
01:53:26,240 --> 01:53:29,439
Speaker 1: as if they could ever truly be separated. Even people

1951
01:53:29,439 --> 01:53:34,880
Speaker 1: who understand that, you know, aca capitalists are misguided and

1952
01:53:35,080 --> 01:53:38,480
Speaker 1: that you know, the state is necessary to maintain capitalism,

1953
01:53:38,920 --> 01:53:42,960
Speaker 1: there's some sort of like disconnect where there's like a

1954
01:53:43,040 --> 01:53:47,479
Speaker 1: whole ton of you know, organization and meming and all

1955
01:53:47,560 --> 01:53:51,960
Speaker 1: that about capitalism, and you know, oftentimes these sort of

1956
01:53:52,040 --> 01:53:56,759
Speaker 1: efforts are like particularly reformist types and unions and stuff.

1957
01:53:56,760 --> 01:54:01,040
Speaker 1: They try to mediate with capitalism through the state, you know,

1958
01:54:01,720 --> 01:54:06,160
Speaker 1: through the government, local re local government or federal government

1959
01:54:06,439 --> 01:54:10,600
Speaker 1: have the case. And what I really tried to emphasize

1960
01:54:10,680 --> 01:54:13,439
Speaker 1: is that it's not enough to have like a theory

1961
01:54:13,479 --> 01:54:17,960
Speaker 1: of capitalism. I think it's even more important to have

1962
01:54:18,040 --> 01:54:21,240
Speaker 1: a theory of hierarchy because I think it avoids it

1963
01:54:21,320 --> 01:54:23,360
Speaker 1: helps to avoid getting into these sort of traps of

1964
01:54:23,479 --> 01:54:28,960
Speaker 1: like um, well, class reductionism for one, but also like

1965
01:54:30,760 --> 01:54:36,640
Speaker 1: recreating certain structures within your organizations and in your efforts

1966
01:54:36,680 --> 01:54:42,160
Speaker 1: to change things, recreating the very you know, circumstances you're

1967
01:54:42,600 --> 01:54:48,680
Speaker 1: fighting against. You can't like condense everything into one problem,

1968
01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:52,800
Speaker 1: because try as we might, it's not that everything is

1969
01:54:52,920 --> 01:54:57,960
Speaker 1: one problem. It's an interconnected mesh that binds all of

1970
01:54:58,040 --> 01:55:00,960
Speaker 1: our problems together, and you can focus on, you know,

1971
01:55:01,120 --> 01:55:03,720
Speaker 1: really big extensions of that mesh, but it still is

1972
01:55:03,880 --> 01:55:06,960
Speaker 1: kind of just the mesh, and the mesh isn't the thing,

1973
01:55:07,560 --> 01:55:09,880
Speaker 1: but it connects to the edges of all of the things.

1974
01:55:10,840 --> 01:55:15,040
Speaker 1: And yeah, that type of ecology can be useful and

1975
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:20,160
Speaker 1: even even relating to bioregions in terms of how they

1976
01:55:20,200 --> 01:55:25,480
Speaker 1: also connect with other territories and entities. I think it also,

1977
01:55:27,040 --> 01:55:28,240
Speaker 1: you know it this is one of the sort of

1978
01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:32,600
Speaker 1: problems that you have if you know, it's like, okay,

1979
01:55:32,640 --> 01:55:34,560
Speaker 1: so your plans to take sort of sovereign state power.

1980
01:55:34,600 --> 01:55:36,040
Speaker 1: It's like, well, you do it, right, But I mean

1981
01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:37,440
Speaker 1: the thing is, if if you if you you know,

1982
01:55:37,520 --> 01:55:39,400
Speaker 1: you seeze control of power of a state, right, your

1983
01:55:39,400 --> 01:55:42,920
Speaker 1: borders are essentially just like where the state's war machine

1984
01:55:43,000 --> 01:55:46,120
Speaker 1: ran out of steam, and you know, and this this

1985
01:55:46,200 --> 01:55:48,680
Speaker 1: becomes a normal problem because like I mean, if if

1986
01:55:48,720 --> 01:55:50,800
Speaker 1: you look at the bioregional maps, right, it's like there's

1987
01:55:50,880 --> 01:55:53,960
Speaker 1: there's literally no way you could ever have states with

1988
01:55:54,040 --> 01:55:57,680
Speaker 1: these borders because yeah, it's not like this, it's it's

1989
01:55:57,680 --> 01:55:59,920
Speaker 1: it's impossible, like you just you you cannot do it.

1990
01:56:00,720 --> 01:56:02,120
Speaker 1: And you know what that means is that states are

1991
01:56:02,240 --> 01:56:04,560
Speaker 1: sort of necessarily going, well, they're either going to be

1992
01:56:04,600 --> 01:56:07,640
Speaker 1: like a small fraction of a bioregion or they have

1993
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:10,200
Speaker 1: multiple in them. And that's another sort of that becomes

1994
01:56:10,240 --> 01:56:12,800
Speaker 1: a sort of logistical problem because you know, like if

1995
01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:13,880
Speaker 1: if you want to look at like a lot of

1996
01:56:13,920 --> 01:56:19,880
Speaker 1: the worst sort of ecological sort of like human disasters,

1997
01:56:19,960 --> 01:56:27,640
Speaker 1: it's when you get states attempting to apply like states environmentalists. Yeah, yeah,

1998
01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:29,760
Speaker 1: it's more certifically like it. It's it's you know, they

1999
01:56:29,840 --> 01:56:31,960
Speaker 1: have something that like sort of works in one test

2000
01:56:32,040 --> 01:56:34,360
Speaker 1: environment and then they broadly apply it across you know,

2001
01:56:34,400 --> 01:56:37,720
Speaker 1: an enormous sort of variety of areas and regions to

2002
01:56:37,760 --> 01:56:39,600
Speaker 1: have their own biospheres and have their own and that stuff.

2003
01:56:40,200 --> 01:56:41,760
Speaker 1: That's like that's like the fastest way to kill an

2004
01:56:41,800 --> 01:56:46,760
Speaker 1: enormous number of people. Yeah, just like it's like forcing

2005
01:56:46,840 --> 01:56:50,080
Speaker 1: a jigsaw piece that obviously doesn't fit into a spot

2006
01:56:50,160 --> 01:56:53,240
Speaker 1: where you wanted to, but you're just breaking the pieces.

2007
01:56:53,960 --> 01:56:55,880
Speaker 1: I want to say as well, that like that sort

2008
01:56:55,920 --> 01:56:59,080
Speaker 1: of I mean, at least the state's attesting it, right, Um,

2009
01:56:59,160 --> 01:57:01,400
Speaker 1: I remember I kind remember the exact name of like

2010
01:57:01,520 --> 01:57:05,880
Speaker 1: the the sort of like ideology or whatever. I think

2011
01:57:05,880 --> 01:57:08,160
Speaker 1: it was like this Elie Soviet Union probably one of

2012
01:57:08,160 --> 01:57:11,880
Speaker 1: your name, this Elie Soviet Union practice related to like

2013
01:57:12,080 --> 01:57:16,960
Speaker 1: farming that they just applied over like a vast, vast

2014
01:57:17,040 --> 01:57:19,920
Speaker 1: region end up with like a huge decrease in like

2015
01:57:20,680 --> 01:57:24,360
Speaker 1: food production. I can't remember the name of it. Like Senku.

2016
01:57:24,880 --> 01:57:27,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, he just had this, he had this

2017
01:57:28,040 --> 01:57:32,240
Speaker 1: theory and it's just like push it and yeah, it

2018
01:57:32,480 --> 01:57:36,240
Speaker 1: led to some serious issues. Yeah, and I think, you know,

2019
01:57:36,320 --> 01:57:38,880
Speaker 1: if we're gonna talk like what's important about sort of birationalism,

2020
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:43,280
Speaker 1: it's you have to have if you're going to implement

2021
01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:47,080
Speaker 1: anything right, you know, especially when you're trying to sort

2022
01:57:47,080 --> 01:57:49,640
Speaker 1: of manipulate biospheres, you're trying to preserve biosphares, you have

2023
01:57:49,840 --> 01:57:51,800
Speaker 1: to have local knowledge from the people who have been

2024
01:57:51,840 --> 01:57:54,320
Speaker 1: living in these biospheres for you know, enormous amounts of time.

2025
01:57:55,120 --> 01:57:58,840
Speaker 1: And that's something that states are really bad at and

2026
01:57:59,280 --> 01:58:00,840
Speaker 1: you know, tend to act to be suppressed and it's

2027
01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:02,440
Speaker 1: something you know, and I all said this there there's

2028
01:58:02,480 --> 01:58:04,680
Speaker 1: there's there's a kind of like there's like a kind

2029
01:58:04,680 --> 01:58:06,960
Speaker 1: of neoliberal version of this stuff. First, like oh, well

2030
01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:08,960
Speaker 1: do you know who local have like local knowledge blah

2031
01:58:08,960 --> 01:58:10,520
Speaker 1: blah blah. And then they're like, well, well we'll have

2032
01:58:10,640 --> 01:58:14,200
Speaker 1: local knowledge, but they that this will help them create

2033
01:58:14,280 --> 01:58:16,960
Speaker 1: market solutions to things like that also doesn't work and

2034
01:58:17,360 --> 01:58:24,840
Speaker 1: it's basically just tootized. Like yeah, but because that I

2035
01:58:25,240 --> 01:58:30,160
Speaker 1: really like sits le doesn't sit well with me. You know,

2036
01:58:30,800 --> 01:58:33,600
Speaker 1: like these sort of like see that. You see a

2037
01:58:33,600 --> 01:58:35,720
Speaker 1: lot of liberals like doing it a lot of these days.

2038
01:58:35,800 --> 01:58:38,880
Speaker 1: Whether they'll be like doing the whole land Acknowledge months

2039
01:58:38,920 --> 01:58:43,120
Speaker 1: thing and they'll be doing the that thing where they

2040
01:58:43,120 --> 01:58:45,680
Speaker 1: would just like say that, oh this is from so

2041
01:58:45,920 --> 01:58:49,120
Speaker 1: and sue culture and whatever, and then's just like boom,

2042
01:58:50,000 --> 01:58:53,920
Speaker 1: carry yeah, carry on with business as usual. Yeah, which

2043
01:58:54,040 --> 01:58:56,880
Speaker 1: I learned this technique from so and so tried, no,

2044
01:58:57,800 --> 01:59:04,520
Speaker 1: let me work as a consultant for your company. Yeah yeah, yeah.

2045
01:59:04,560 --> 01:59:08,480
Speaker 1: It's it's commod it's commodifying the thing, and that that

2046
01:59:09,280 --> 01:59:14,760
Speaker 1: both produces a warped replication and then it also kind

2047
01:59:14,800 --> 01:59:19,600
Speaker 1: of makes the original thing seem like used in a

2048
01:59:19,680 --> 01:59:23,120
Speaker 1: weird way as well, like it wasn't designed. Yeah. Yeah,

2049
01:59:24,400 --> 01:59:28,840
Speaker 1: I once reminded a bit of alienation and how we

2050
01:59:28,920 --> 01:59:33,120
Speaker 1: are just sort of separated from you know, aspects of

2051
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:37,680
Speaker 1: our actual humanity because of the structure as we live under. Right,

2052
01:59:37,760 --> 01:59:43,920
Speaker 1: So instead of relating with the environment, or relating with

2053
01:59:44,240 --> 01:59:47,839
Speaker 1: our culture, or relating to other people, we're just relating

2054
01:59:47,960 --> 01:59:52,640
Speaker 1: through like these commodities and these products and these you know,

2055
01:59:53,840 --> 02:00:00,040
Speaker 1: just bastardized versions of things. And I think that it

2056
02:00:00,120 --> 02:00:05,320
Speaker 1: is also something that sort of pleagues like some environmentalists

2057
02:00:06,160 --> 02:00:09,040
Speaker 1: in terms. So there's there's there's almost like this subtle

2058
02:00:09,520 --> 02:00:14,720
Speaker 1: ill nation from the nature that um many of them

2059
02:00:14,720 --> 02:00:19,840
Speaker 1: seek to preserve, right where on the one hand, yes,

2060
02:00:19,920 --> 02:00:23,480
Speaker 1: you're trying to you know, preserve it and protect it

2061
02:00:23,840 --> 02:00:27,600
Speaker 1: and as commendable brand the other hand, the way you're

2062
02:00:27,640 --> 02:00:34,360
Speaker 1: going about it is basically like anti tactical to those schools,

2063
02:00:34,840 --> 02:00:39,200
Speaker 1: because you don't have that connection with the nature that

2064
02:00:39,280 --> 02:00:42,600
Speaker 1: you're trying to help. You know, what it seems like

2065
02:00:42,720 --> 02:00:44,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people not recognizing is that you know,

2066
02:00:44,960 --> 02:00:48,440
Speaker 1: humans are of hearts nature, right, and this is not

2067
02:00:48,560 --> 02:00:55,360
Speaker 1: a bioregional concept, right, This thing called bioregional reinhabitation in

2068
02:00:55,480 --> 02:00:59,640
Speaker 1: it in being that um meaning that we must come

2069
02:00:59,720 --> 02:01:04,920
Speaker 1: who to the geographical and biophysicalter and reinhabit understand its

2070
02:01:04,960 --> 02:01:09,600
Speaker 1: ecologically uniqueness and familiarize ourselves with the stories woven into

2071
02:01:09,680 --> 02:01:12,440
Speaker 1: the fabric of said land. It's history, it's people with

2072
02:01:12,520 --> 02:01:15,160
Speaker 1: it's cultures, it's flora, it's fauna. You know. It's only

2073
02:01:15,240 --> 02:01:18,120
Speaker 1: once we come home to the our byo regions and

2074
02:01:18,320 --> 02:01:21,360
Speaker 1: to our ecosystems, to all places, that we can really

2075
02:01:21,960 --> 02:01:27,120
Speaker 1: work together to see its potential, to see how we

2076
02:01:27,320 --> 02:01:32,320
Speaker 1: fit into it, how we can facilitate its healing, you know,

2077
02:01:32,640 --> 02:01:38,960
Speaker 1: bio region by bioy region. Yeah, that definitely mirrors stuff

2078
02:01:38,960 --> 02:01:41,880
Speaker 1: I've been working on relating to that type of like

2079
02:01:41,960 --> 02:01:45,480
Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance that you're talking about, and that alienation not

2080
02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:50,080
Speaker 1: just from like human human, but human to human to place,

2081
02:01:50,560 --> 02:01:54,200
Speaker 1: because yeah, we have like developed this like this commodified

2082
02:01:54,400 --> 02:01:58,240
Speaker 1: other version of nature that isn't actually what nature is. Um,

2083
02:01:58,360 --> 02:02:01,040
Speaker 1: it's it's it's we formed this thing that separate from us,

2084
02:02:01,560 --> 02:02:04,720
Speaker 1: which is not how we need to think about it,

2085
02:02:04,760 --> 02:02:07,480
Speaker 1: because it should be. We are all part of the

2086
02:02:07,600 --> 02:02:10,800
Speaker 1: same of of of that same system. We are not

2087
02:02:10,920 --> 02:02:13,040
Speaker 1: separate from it, and we're not isolated from it or

2088
02:02:13,080 --> 02:02:15,240
Speaker 1: its effects. We are just another part of it. So

2089
02:02:15,400 --> 02:02:19,640
Speaker 1: it's about getting in like getting a sense of ecology

2090
02:02:20,160 --> 02:02:24,280
Speaker 1: with both your bioregion and then the biosphere as as

2091
02:02:24,400 --> 02:02:26,680
Speaker 1: as a whole, and getting that ecology, which kind of

2092
02:02:26,840 --> 02:02:30,360
Speaker 1: will break down this notion of nature being in other

2093
02:02:31,200 --> 02:02:33,720
Speaker 1: and and I think because of the idea of nature

2094
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:38,400
Speaker 1: being another that really kind of fosters our extraction that's

2095
02:02:38,520 --> 02:02:42,360
Speaker 1: led to our current problems because we don't use problems

2096
02:02:42,400 --> 02:02:44,440
Speaker 1: affecting us. We give you them as a practice as

2097
02:02:44,480 --> 02:02:47,400
Speaker 1: affecting the territory. And if we're if we're not the territory,

2098
02:02:47,440 --> 02:02:54,680
Speaker 1: then we can be safe. But that's not so I think.

2099
02:02:54,720 --> 02:02:55,920
Speaker 1: I think I may have talked about this on this

2100
02:02:55,960 --> 02:02:59,120
Speaker 1: show before, but you know that there's another aspect here,

2101
02:02:59,200 --> 02:03:02,080
Speaker 1: which is that viewing humans is sort of like separate

2102
02:03:02,160 --> 02:03:04,680
Speaker 1: from like this abstract nature is how you get a

2103
02:03:04,760 --> 02:03:09,520
Speaker 1: lot of really bad like racist environmentalism. Like if you

2104
02:03:09,560 --> 02:03:12,680
Speaker 1: haven't read The Trouble with Wilderness by Yeah Coroning, the

2105
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:14,280
Speaker 1: Trouble with Wilderness is one of the things that like

2106
02:03:14,520 --> 02:03:18,440
Speaker 1: if you, yeah, if if you do environmental studies at all,

2107
02:03:18,880 --> 02:03:20,200
Speaker 1: like this is one of the first things they hand you.

2108
02:03:20,280 --> 02:03:21,920
Speaker 1: And the reason they hand it to you is because

2109
02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:25,720
Speaker 1: it you know, so the the the image of wilderness

2110
02:03:25,800 --> 02:03:27,240
Speaker 1: that we have is sort of like oh it's this

2111
02:03:27,320 --> 02:03:29,680
Speaker 1: like completely untapped thing. And it's like, well, yeah, okay,

2112
02:03:29,720 --> 02:03:31,480
Speaker 1: so that the reason the reason we have this image

2113
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:34,320
Speaker 1: of like a wilderness with nothing in it is because

2114
02:03:34,360 --> 02:03:35,760
Speaker 1: there used to be people there and we killed them

2115
02:03:35,800 --> 02:03:45,040
Speaker 1: all or fortunately reported them. Yeah. Yeah, and it's especially yeah,

2116
02:03:45,200 --> 02:03:50,480
Speaker 1: it was for us literally planted those forests were I

2117
02:03:50,640 --> 02:03:54,080
Speaker 1: think even more pointedly should it should be stated those

2118
02:03:54,120 --> 02:03:57,280
Speaker 1: forests were a work of engineering that's on par with

2119
02:03:57,440 --> 02:04:01,280
Speaker 1: the Pyramids at Giza, if not like absolutely massively in

2120
02:04:01,400 --> 02:04:04,560
Speaker 1: excess of it there. They are a work of engineering

2121
02:04:04,640 --> 02:04:07,560
Speaker 1: that's every bit as impressive as any city ever built. Um,

2122
02:04:07,600 --> 02:04:09,840
Speaker 1: and every bit is like intense and required as much

2123
02:04:09,920 --> 02:04:13,720
Speaker 1: knowledge and scientific understanding. People just all we had, all

2124
02:04:13,760 --> 02:04:16,760
Speaker 1: of those people had died by the time white folks

2125
02:04:17,520 --> 02:04:19,440
Speaker 1: really because of the spread of disease or just because

2126
02:04:19,480 --> 02:04:21,960
Speaker 1: of acts like yeah, like I I think that's true

2127
02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:23,640
Speaker 1: definitely the East coast. With the West coast, I think

2128
02:04:23,680 --> 02:04:26,000
Speaker 1: it's even grimmer because the West coast you and this

2129
02:04:26,160 --> 02:04:28,760
Speaker 1: this happened, You still see this where like a lot

2130
02:04:28,800 --> 02:04:31,960
Speaker 1: of like the Incan National parks were literally like but

2131
02:04:32,040 --> 02:04:34,480
Speaker 1: people would go in and ethnically cleanse the population that

2132
02:04:34,720 --> 02:04:37,240
Speaker 1: was there. And then be like, oh hey, look it's

2133
02:04:37,320 --> 02:04:38,960
Speaker 1: it's now wilderness. This is now and this this is

2134
02:04:39,000 --> 02:04:41,320
Speaker 1: like the origin of the environmental movement. It's all of

2135
02:04:41,440 --> 02:04:45,800
Speaker 1: these like just like the most racist people you've ever

2136
02:04:45,880 --> 02:04:50,840
Speaker 1: seen in your life, like people yeah, well and even

2137
02:04:50,920 --> 02:04:53,040
Speaker 1: even even before them, like in you know, like like

2138
02:04:53,120 --> 02:04:59,840
Speaker 1: early hundreds, like not people like those guys. Yeah, it's

2139
02:04:59,880 --> 02:05:01,600
Speaker 1: like when when when when those guys are talking about

2140
02:05:01,600 --> 02:05:05,000
Speaker 1: like the purity of the wild like they're everything they

2141
02:05:05,040 --> 02:05:07,200
Speaker 1: think about the wilderness is also just about the purity

2142
02:05:07,200 --> 02:05:10,000
Speaker 1: of the white race, and it's it's yeah and if

2143
02:05:10,080 --> 02:05:11,760
Speaker 1: if if when you when when you start making that

2144
02:05:11,840 --> 02:05:14,120
Speaker 1: this like that's the separation between humans in nature, Like

2145
02:05:15,040 --> 02:05:17,720
Speaker 1: that's that's how you get this, Like that's how that's

2146
02:05:17,720 --> 02:05:22,400
Speaker 1: how you get these you know, ethnic cleansing, like genocide forests.

2147
02:05:22,800 --> 02:05:25,920
Speaker 1: I've been reading this very good book, just started last night,

2148
02:05:25,920 --> 02:05:27,200
Speaker 1: and I think we're gonna have the author on the

2149
02:05:27,240 --> 02:05:30,560
Speaker 1: show soon. Chris Begley. He's an underwater archaeologist and he

2150
02:05:30,640 --> 02:05:34,360
Speaker 1: wrote a book called The Next Apocalypse that's about collapses

2151
02:05:34,440 --> 02:05:37,560
Speaker 1: throughout history and how they actually differ from the popular

2152
02:05:37,640 --> 02:05:39,520
Speaker 1: conceptions of them. And he actually talks about a lot

2153
02:05:39,520 --> 02:05:41,800
Speaker 1: of the stuff we talk about in this show UM.

2154
02:05:41,920 --> 02:05:44,400
Speaker 1: And one of the points he makes is that this

2155
02:05:44,680 --> 02:05:48,520
Speaker 1: idea of like lost cities in dark jungles and whatnot,

2156
02:05:48,760 --> 02:05:51,640
Speaker 1: UM is based entirely on misconceptions first of all about

2157
02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:55,320
Speaker 1: like what jungles are, and then second on like these

2158
02:05:55,760 --> 02:05:58,640
Speaker 1: these very eurocentric ideas towards what lost means. Like he

2159
02:05:58,720 --> 02:06:01,120
Speaker 1: points out that every time there's in a lost city

2160
02:06:01,240 --> 02:06:04,560
Speaker 1: or civilization discovered, it's because archaeologists just like asked the

2161
02:06:04,600 --> 02:06:06,400
Speaker 1: people living there where the ruins were in there, Like,

2162
02:06:06,440 --> 02:06:08,160
Speaker 1: oh yeah, it's like right over there, Like we we've

2163
02:06:08,240 --> 02:06:10,360
Speaker 1: known about this since forever. It was never lost, we

2164
02:06:10,480 --> 02:06:13,200
Speaker 1: just stopped living in that specific area. And the other

2165
02:06:13,280 --> 02:06:15,840
Speaker 1: thing he points out is that like this idea of

2166
02:06:15,920 --> 02:06:19,400
Speaker 1: a jungle as like a difficult and primeval place is ridiculous.

2167
02:06:19,440 --> 02:06:21,680
Speaker 1: If you had to pick anywhere to be stranded in

2168
02:06:21,800 --> 02:06:24,200
Speaker 1: the world of in terms of bioregions, you would pick

2169
02:06:24,240 --> 02:06:26,720
Speaker 1: a jungle like the Amazon, because it's pretty easy to

2170
02:06:26,800 --> 02:06:30,200
Speaker 1: survive there. That's why people live there for so long. Yeah,

2171
02:06:30,280 --> 02:06:32,840
Speaker 1: there's a ton of the Amazon Amazon as you know,

2172
02:06:33,400 --> 02:06:36,280
Speaker 1: as we've discovered, you know, there were cities and stuff

2173
02:06:36,280 --> 02:06:38,879
Speaker 1: happening in the Amazon. You know, it was like planted.

2174
02:06:40,120 --> 02:06:42,960
Speaker 1: There's food jungle like food forests and whatnot. Is the

2175
02:06:43,080 --> 02:06:45,440
Speaker 1: term people use it within the jungle like people set

2176
02:06:45,520 --> 02:06:48,480
Speaker 1: the people set the jungle in the Amazon up to

2177
02:06:48,720 --> 02:06:51,960
Speaker 1: provide them with food in a way that isn't exactly

2178
02:06:52,080 --> 02:06:55,200
Speaker 1: isn't the same as like what we considered to be agriculture,

2179
02:06:55,240 --> 02:06:58,080
Speaker 1: but it's absolutely a kind of agriculture. And because people

2180
02:06:58,160 --> 02:07:00,640
Speaker 1: don't see it as aricle, just like well, that's just

2181
02:07:00,840 --> 02:07:03,000
Speaker 1: you know, they were just running around the forest before

2182
02:07:03,000 --> 02:07:07,400
Speaker 1: we arrived, you know, it's like, yeah, no, they had

2183
02:07:07,520 --> 02:07:10,960
Speaker 1: they had essentially built themselves a big smart house in

2184
02:07:11,360 --> 02:07:15,360
Speaker 1: the middle of the woods that provided them with everything

2185
02:07:15,440 --> 02:07:19,480
Speaker 1: they needed. Um with upkeep that we would consider minimal

2186
02:07:19,560 --> 02:07:23,280
Speaker 1: based on like what a lot of our European ancestors

2187
02:07:23,360 --> 02:07:25,680
Speaker 1: that certainly like did in terms of labor to keep

2188
02:07:25,760 --> 02:07:28,440
Speaker 1: farms going. Like if you compare, I mean you could

2189
02:07:28,440 --> 02:07:31,160
Speaker 1: also talk about how like peasants in the medieval period

2190
02:07:31,240 --> 02:07:33,000
Speaker 1: probably worked less than a lot of people in the

2191
02:07:33,120 --> 02:07:35,760
Speaker 1: United States Dudish like everyone works less we do now.

2192
02:07:36,160 --> 02:07:38,400
Speaker 1: But it's a lot harder to keep like a mono

2193
02:07:38,560 --> 02:07:41,240
Speaker 1: culture farm going than it is to to keep a

2194
02:07:41,320 --> 02:07:44,600
Speaker 1: food forest going yeah, because I mean, once it's established,

2195
02:07:44,680 --> 02:07:48,160
Speaker 1: it literally maintains itself. M But what was the name

2196
02:07:48,160 --> 02:07:49,720
Speaker 1: of the book that you were talking about just now?

2197
02:07:49,960 --> 02:07:52,560
Speaker 1: It's called The Next Apocalypse and it's it's very good

2198
02:07:52,640 --> 02:07:54,960
Speaker 1: so far. Chris Begley is the author. I think we're

2199
02:07:54,960 --> 02:07:57,200
Speaker 1: gonna have them on next week. But um yeah, I've

2200
02:07:57,240 --> 02:07:59,240
Speaker 1: I've found it so far about a third of the

2201
02:07:59,280 --> 02:08:03,280
Speaker 1: way and very good it or someone check that out. Okay,

2202
02:08:03,360 --> 02:08:10,800
Speaker 1: who wants to say we're back Just that's now, that's

2203
02:08:10,880 --> 02:08:14,240
Speaker 1: the exit area. You're welcome here we are or some

2204
02:08:15,640 --> 02:08:18,760
Speaker 1: so yeah, once we have like embraced our understanding that

2205
02:08:18,960 --> 02:08:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, we belong to the land and not vice

2206
02:08:22,960 --> 02:08:27,480
Speaker 1: and was therefore pattern ourselves and societies based on its needs. Um,

2207
02:08:28,800 --> 02:08:30,520
Speaker 1: you know, that's when we get to that place of

2208
02:08:30,720 --> 02:08:36,960
Speaker 1: bioregional regeneration, which is another key concept of bioregionalism. And lastly,

2209
02:08:37,000 --> 02:08:40,880
Speaker 1: there's the concept of bioregional sensibility, which was developed by

2210
02:08:41,000 --> 02:08:45,200
Speaker 1: Mitchell Thomas Show and it's about developing the observational skills

2211
02:08:46,160 --> 02:08:50,360
Speaker 1: to observe the bioregional history, to develop the conceptual skills

2212
02:08:50,440 --> 02:08:55,240
Speaker 1: to juxtapoose you know, the scale of you know, the

2213
02:08:55,320 --> 02:09:01,440
Speaker 1: community and the region, and the ecosystem, the bioregion, all

2214
02:09:01,480 --> 02:09:04,400
Speaker 1: these different levels. Ability to like think in terms of

2215
02:09:04,600 --> 02:09:09,800
Speaker 1: all of them, to develop the imaginative faculties too. Really,

2216
02:09:10,040 --> 02:09:15,960
Speaker 1: I would say, play with multiple landscapes and developed the compassion.

2217
02:09:16,760 --> 02:09:22,400
Speaker 1: Two empathize with and work with both local and global neighbors,

2218
02:09:23,000 --> 02:09:27,080
Speaker 1: not just local and global human neighbors, but also you know,

2219
02:09:27,280 --> 02:09:32,360
Speaker 1: the flora and fauna living next door. There are a

2220
02:09:32,360 --> 02:09:36,920
Speaker 1: lot of different bioregional practices happening all of the world.

2221
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:39,680
Speaker 1: Um I didn't note that it started in North America,

2222
02:09:40,280 --> 02:09:43,040
Speaker 1: but I noticed a lot of the big projects happening

2223
02:09:43,280 --> 02:09:48,040
Speaker 1: in like South America, you know in Brazil Sinaldo Ville,

2224
02:09:48,720 --> 02:09:53,680
Speaker 1: in Costa Rica Regenerativa, to then Colombia Regenerativa and the

2225
02:09:54,640 --> 02:09:58,360
Speaker 1: Pluriversity in the Himalayas as well, and many others. They're

2226
02:09:58,360 --> 02:10:04,640
Speaker 1: basically engaging in efforts involving applied education, alternative agriculture systems, mapping,

2227
02:10:05,160 --> 02:10:08,000
Speaker 1: green belt restoration. There's the you know, the Green Belt

2228
02:10:08,000 --> 02:10:11,200
Speaker 1: project in Africa as well, and these are all efforts

2229
02:10:11,320 --> 02:10:16,960
Speaker 1: to really understand and work with the bio regions that

2230
02:10:17,240 --> 02:10:20,440
Speaker 1: these people inhabit. So just a few tips that I

2231
02:10:20,520 --> 02:10:24,440
Speaker 1: wanted to end this off with you before we and

2232
02:10:24,560 --> 02:10:29,840
Speaker 1: things off UM. I was trying to link, um, the

2233
02:10:29,920 --> 02:10:32,280
Speaker 1: things that I talked about in some way to what

2234
02:10:32,840 --> 02:10:36,720
Speaker 1: people on the groups they are part of, the organizations,

2235
02:10:36,720 --> 02:10:39,720
Speaker 1: they are part of, the communities, they're part of can

2236
02:10:39,840 --> 02:10:44,280
Speaker 1: do you know, as an action to strengthen their resilience

2237
02:10:44,600 --> 02:10:49,440
Speaker 1: or to develop you know, autonomy. Right in this case,

2238
02:10:49,640 --> 02:10:53,120
Speaker 1: it is the strength and resilience and also to develop

2239
02:10:53,200 --> 02:10:57,400
Speaker 1: the vitality of the bio region you inhabit. So, first

2240
02:10:57,400 --> 02:11:02,200
Speaker 1: of all, I think it's important done that we learn

2241
02:11:02,640 --> 02:11:07,600
Speaker 1: as much as we can about our areas, and learn

2242
02:11:07,720 --> 02:11:12,440
Speaker 1: especially through action, whether it be through cleanups, you know,

2243
02:11:12,520 --> 02:11:16,760
Speaker 1: observing the space around you, whether it be through observing

2244
02:11:16,800 --> 02:11:21,000
Speaker 1: weather patterns, UM bet to be through looking at the

2245
02:11:21,720 --> 02:11:23,760
Speaker 1: we're on hikes and looking at the way that the

2246
02:11:25,160 --> 02:11:29,640
Speaker 1: temperature changes and the texture of the soil changes as

2247
02:11:29,720 --> 02:11:34,520
Speaker 1: you go up and down and um altitude. I think

2248
02:11:34,560 --> 02:11:37,880
Speaker 1: it's also important to try to get involved with actions too,

2249
02:11:38,880 --> 02:11:45,520
Speaker 1: um restore natural features and to understand the police that

2250
02:11:46,040 --> 02:11:50,440
Speaker 1: those natural features have in the broader by region. Of course,

2251
02:11:50,440 --> 02:11:53,600
Speaker 1: there are lots of sustainable projects happening all over the world.

2252
02:11:54,200 --> 02:11:58,480
Speaker 1: You know, if they aren't any new area. UM be

2253
02:11:58,600 --> 02:12:01,280
Speaker 1: the change you want to see Art one, make it happen.

2254
02:12:02,200 --> 02:12:06,520
Speaker 1: And really also, I would say, find ways to link

2255
02:12:07,240 --> 02:12:13,840
Speaker 1: projects for environmental sustainability and restoration with projects for human umanancipation.

2256
02:12:15,240 --> 02:12:18,400
Speaker 1: Find ways to support access to you know, basic human

2257
02:12:18,440 --> 02:12:21,440
Speaker 1: needs within your locality. To find ways to sort of

2258
02:12:21,640 --> 02:12:25,280
Speaker 1: because when we speak of bioregions and you know, living

2259
02:12:25,320 --> 02:12:27,920
Speaker 1: within our bioregions and so on and so forth, that's

2260
02:12:27,920 --> 02:12:33,640
Speaker 1: all well and good. But if, for example, your region

2261
02:12:33,840 --> 02:12:37,640
Speaker 1: has to import whole bunch of food all the time

2262
02:12:37,840 --> 02:12:40,640
Speaker 1: to support the population, I think there needs to be

2263
02:12:40,760 --> 02:12:45,600
Speaker 1: ways to um decrease that sort of import and to

2264
02:12:45,840 --> 02:12:51,880
Speaker 1: find ways to um live sustainably within the area. Raise

2265
02:12:51,880 --> 02:12:56,520
Speaker 1: awareness of course as well, um about bioregional thinking, systems thinking,

2266
02:12:57,000 --> 02:13:04,440
Speaker 1: social ecological thinking. And yeah, just get to work anti work,

2267
02:13:04,480 --> 02:13:09,320
Speaker 1: work for figuring the structures of more horizontal, originally ethical

2268
02:13:09,600 --> 02:13:13,800
Speaker 1: and sustainable way of life. And of course disrupt the

2269
02:13:13,880 --> 02:13:17,640
Speaker 1: projects like getting the way of those schools. And I

2270
02:13:17,720 --> 02:13:23,320
Speaker 1: see that as tentatively as I can to avoid legal trouble.

2271
02:13:24,080 --> 02:13:28,920
Speaker 1: That's it. Take care everyone and be kind to every piece.

2272
02:13:42,600 --> 02:13:44,800
Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here A podcast that is

2273
02:13:45,480 --> 02:13:49,200
Speaker 1: remarkably today not really so much about things falling apart

2274
02:13:49,280 --> 02:13:52,800
Speaker 1: and is mostly about things in fact getting better and

2275
02:13:52,880 --> 02:13:56,040
Speaker 1: how we can do that. Um, I'm your host, Christopher.

2276
02:13:57,320 --> 02:14:00,400
Speaker 1: With me today is Garrison and we're also joined by

2277
02:14:00,480 --> 02:14:02,600
Speaker 1: Nick and Max, who are two members of the artist

2278
02:14:02,640 --> 02:14:05,760
Speaker 1: collective solar Punk Surf Club, who have released a very

2279
02:14:05,880 --> 02:14:08,440
Speaker 1: very interesting you game that we are here in part

2280
02:14:08,480 --> 02:14:11,440
Speaker 1: of talk about called solar Punk Features. Hello, Dick, I, Max,

2281
02:14:11,520 --> 02:14:14,600
Speaker 1: How how are you doing? Hey? Doing well? Thanks? Yeah,

2282
02:14:14,720 --> 02:14:16,880
Speaker 1: doing great. Thanks for having us on. Yeah, excited to

2283
02:14:16,920 --> 02:14:19,800
Speaker 1: have you too on. So I guess my first question

2284
02:14:20,240 --> 02:14:24,800
Speaker 1: is how did you too get into game design and

2285
02:14:24,920 --> 02:14:29,040
Speaker 1: sort of first have the idea to do a sort

2286
02:14:29,080 --> 02:14:32,320
Speaker 1: of like political gaming project like this. That's a good question.

2287
02:14:32,480 --> 02:14:36,880
Speaker 1: So we're not, um, we're definitely not game designers by

2288
02:14:37,480 --> 02:14:42,040
Speaker 1: profession or trade. UM. We're members of the artist collective

2289
02:14:42,080 --> 02:14:49,640
Speaker 1: Solar Punk Surf Club, and we're particularly interested in creating

2290
02:14:50,760 --> 02:14:56,480
Speaker 1: artwork and social practice that pre figures these kinds of

2291
02:14:56,520 --> 02:14:59,280
Speaker 1: egalitarian futures that we'd like to see in the world.

2292
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:04,360
Speaker 1: And so this game was something that we've been kind

2293
02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:06,600
Speaker 1: of a project that we've been thinking about and sitting

2294
02:15:06,640 --> 02:15:12,040
Speaker 1: on for a little while and was kind of something

2295
02:15:12,120 --> 02:15:15,280
Speaker 1: that made us excited, got us excited, and we think

2296
02:15:15,320 --> 02:15:17,120
Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of other reasons that we think

2297
02:15:17,160 --> 02:15:19,920
Speaker 1: it's a really cool um project to work on an

2298
02:15:19,920 --> 02:15:25,240
Speaker 1: important project, and um yeah, so it kind of took

2299
02:15:25,280 --> 02:15:27,920
Speaker 1: a took a deep dive headfirst into the world of

2300
02:15:28,000 --> 02:15:31,040
Speaker 1: game design and learning how to how to do that

2301
02:15:31,160 --> 02:15:36,120
Speaker 1: over the past year or so. Okay, so how about we,

2302
02:15:36,280 --> 02:15:39,840
Speaker 1: I guess also start with I guess explaining what solar

2303
02:15:39,880 --> 02:15:42,600
Speaker 1: Punk features is and sort of how it works, and

2304
02:15:42,640 --> 02:15:46,240
Speaker 1: then we can get into the sort of political aspect

2305
02:15:46,320 --> 02:15:50,360
Speaker 1: of this sort of game design project. So, solar Punk

2306
02:15:50,440 --> 02:15:55,760
Speaker 1: Futures is a storytelling game where players imagine pathways to

2307
02:15:56,120 --> 02:16:02,440
Speaker 1: a desirable future by collaboratively overcoming real world challenges. The

2308
02:16:03,000 --> 02:16:07,120
Speaker 1: object of the game is to collectively remember one of

2309
02:16:07,200 --> 02:16:12,640
Speaker 1: the stories that grew into our utopia. Um. The idea

2310
02:16:13,040 --> 02:16:19,520
Speaker 1: is that through back casting, where you assume within the

2311
02:16:19,600 --> 02:16:22,800
Speaker 1: context of the game that players are already in utopia

2312
02:16:23,640 --> 02:16:28,920
Speaker 1: and merely remembering back to their ancestors struggle, that players

2313
02:16:29,000 --> 02:16:34,920
Speaker 1: can transcend the idea that what currently exists must necessarily exist,

2314
02:16:35,520 --> 02:16:40,960
Speaker 1: which social theorists Murray book Chain described as the acid

2315
02:16:41,080 --> 02:16:45,520
Speaker 1: that corrodes all visionary thinking. So we wanted to make

2316
02:16:46,120 --> 02:16:53,320
Speaker 1: a system to facilitate collaborative performance sort of we call

2317
02:16:53,400 --> 02:16:57,280
Speaker 1: it a collaborative performance of memory, but one that combines

2318
02:16:57,640 --> 02:17:04,920
Speaker 1: sincerity with laughter and speculative storytelling. The game also combines

2319
02:17:05,520 --> 02:17:08,879
Speaker 1: a lot of different elements that we saw in other games, um,

2320
02:17:09,640 --> 02:17:14,800
Speaker 1: collaborative you know, the collaborative storytelling, cooperative gameplay, uh, some

2321
02:17:15,080 --> 02:17:19,040
Speaker 1: elements of role playing, and different kind of mechanics that

2322
02:17:19,360 --> 02:17:23,600
Speaker 1: we thought would build out that kind of, like I

2323
02:17:23,680 --> 02:17:27,320
Speaker 1: said earlier, those prefigurations of those egalitarian world So we're

2324
02:17:27,320 --> 02:17:29,920
Speaker 1: trying to you know, we're trying to make a game

2325
02:17:30,280 --> 02:17:33,600
Speaker 1: that had the fiction and the idea of utopia built

2326
02:17:33,640 --> 02:17:36,480
Speaker 1: in uh in terms of the goals of the game,

2327
02:17:36,720 --> 02:17:38,960
Speaker 1: but it was also we wanted to build it into

2328
02:17:39,680 --> 02:17:41,480
Speaker 1: some of the mechanics of how the game is actually

2329
02:17:41,520 --> 02:17:46,080
Speaker 1: played too. Um. But my question from here is sort of, well,

2330
02:17:46,120 --> 02:17:48,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess firstly is I think what sort

2331
02:17:48,360 --> 02:17:50,440
Speaker 1: of specifically drew you to solar Punk is sort of

2332
02:17:50,520 --> 02:17:53,560
Speaker 1: an aesthetic for for this, Like I know there's been

2333
02:17:53,560 --> 02:17:56,200
Speaker 1: a lot of sort of like the kind of social

2334
02:17:56,240 --> 02:18:00,480
Speaker 1: coology solar punk fusions, but I'm interested in what you

2335
02:18:00,560 --> 02:18:05,280
Speaker 1: specifically to it. So we see solar punk as a

2336
02:18:06,000 --> 02:18:12,920
Speaker 1: visionary utopian politics and aesthetic that critically engages the reality

2337
02:18:13,000 --> 02:18:19,119
Speaker 1: of capitalist catastrophe while maintaining a radical optimism about humanity's

2338
02:18:19,160 --> 02:18:23,039
Speaker 1: hopes for a communal, ecological future. Nick was just speaking

2339
02:18:23,080 --> 02:18:28,800
Speaker 1: to this. UM. We see it as a restorative justice

2340
02:18:28,920 --> 02:18:33,800
Speaker 1: process on a planetary scale among people, between humans and

2341
02:18:33,879 --> 02:18:39,320
Speaker 1: non human nature. So that means reclaiming pieces of the past,

2342
02:18:39,640 --> 02:18:46,000
Speaker 1: pre pre capitalist culture. UM, that means material accountability for

2343
02:18:46,240 --> 02:18:51,480
Speaker 1: old practices, and it also means radical adaptability towards new ones.

2344
02:18:52,520 --> 02:18:59,160
Speaker 1: I think it provided a useful way of synthesizing several

2345
02:18:59,280 --> 02:19:04,000
Speaker 1: currents that we had already been thinking about and involved

2346
02:19:04,080 --> 02:19:10,680
Speaker 1: in between new media and social practice, thinking not just

2347
02:19:10,879 --> 02:19:15,760
Speaker 1: about images and objects in space, but also the set

2348
02:19:15,800 --> 02:19:19,680
Speaker 1: of social relations that those things produce. Yeah, we're also

2349
02:19:20,000 --> 02:19:23,440
Speaker 1: we're like partisans within solar punk. I don't think there's

2350
02:19:23,760 --> 02:19:26,520
Speaker 1: I don't think there's too many pro capitalists within solar punk,

2351
02:19:26,680 --> 02:19:28,800
Speaker 1: but I think there are some people who are maybe

2352
02:19:28,879 --> 02:19:32,480
Speaker 1: drawn to the aesthetic but don't necessarily have a politics.

2353
02:19:33,600 --> 02:19:35,040
Speaker 1: But we do think that there's a kind of a

2354
02:19:35,160 --> 02:19:41,120
Speaker 1: latent horizontalism, a latent anarchistic politics in a lot of

2355
02:19:41,160 --> 02:19:45,400
Speaker 1: the aesthetics around solar punk and so uh as a

2356
02:19:46,520 --> 02:19:50,200
Speaker 1: as a collaborative as an aesthetic that is being defined

2357
02:19:50,280 --> 02:19:54,520
Speaker 1: collaboratively by people online and elsewhere. You know, we wanted

2358
02:19:54,560 --> 02:19:57,360
Speaker 1: to kind of stick out of position about what we

2359
02:19:57,480 --> 02:20:01,879
Speaker 1: thought a really realistic utop be in world might look

2360
02:20:01,959 --> 02:20:08,720
Speaker 1: and feel like, Yeah, and I think this is something else.

2361
02:20:08,760 --> 02:20:13,119
Speaker 1: I know YouTube, I'm very passionate about. Um is about

2362
02:20:13,240 --> 02:20:15,400
Speaker 1: specifically using games as a medium to do this and

2363
02:20:15,440 --> 02:20:20,520
Speaker 1: sort of this as like this kind of storytelling membrance

2364
02:20:20,680 --> 02:20:23,920
Speaker 1: as a specifically political intervention. So could you talk a

2365
02:20:24,000 --> 02:20:27,120
Speaker 1: bit more about you know, like a yeah, you know,

2366
02:20:27,200 --> 02:20:29,880
Speaker 1: good questions like okay, so why this and not on

2367
02:20:30,120 --> 02:20:32,400
Speaker 1: you know, on this sort of less more like like

2368
02:20:32,480 --> 02:20:34,320
Speaker 1: why this and not a guerrilla gardening? Why this and

2369
02:20:34,400 --> 02:20:37,080
Speaker 1: not some other kind of organizing etcetera, etcetera. Um, Yeah,

2370
02:20:37,520 --> 02:20:40,880
Speaker 1: her you tube say about that. Yeah, well, I'm not

2371
02:20:40,879 --> 02:20:45,039
Speaker 1: gonna hite on guerrilla gardening. I definitely think it's a boation. Yeah,

2372
02:20:45,760 --> 02:20:48,640
Speaker 1: it's also in the game. Yeah, that's true. It's it's

2373
02:20:48,680 --> 02:20:50,800
Speaker 1: one of the cards, one of the tools that you

2374
02:20:50,840 --> 02:20:56,039
Speaker 1: get to use as an ancestor. Um. Yeah, I think,

2375
02:20:56,320 --> 02:20:57,680
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of different things that we

2376
02:20:57,760 --> 02:21:00,280
Speaker 1: were thinking about when we were thinking about why game

2377
02:21:01,320 --> 02:21:03,800
Speaker 1: that I got a little bit into earlier. But you know,

2378
02:21:04,360 --> 02:21:08,520
Speaker 1: for one, UM, I think it helps reach abroad and

2379
02:21:09,680 --> 02:21:16,080
Speaker 1: often dep politicized audience with a fun way to kind

2380
02:21:16,120 --> 02:21:19,680
Speaker 1: of engage in some thorny political questions. I think that

2381
02:21:20,440 --> 02:21:25,840
Speaker 1: games as a participatory medium were especially interesting for people

2382
02:21:25,920 --> 02:21:31,760
Speaker 1: who are interested in sort of anarchistic modes of teaching

2383
02:21:31,879 --> 02:21:38,320
Speaker 1: and education, like education through doing rather than lecture. Although

2384
02:21:38,640 --> 02:21:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, we were also read a lot of good

2385
02:21:41,040 --> 02:21:44,920
Speaker 1: political theories, so I'm not I'm not opposed to that. Um.

2386
02:21:45,480 --> 02:21:52,120
Speaker 1: And then I think, uh, you know, games are also fun,

2387
02:21:52,800 --> 02:21:57,760
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of there's a lot of political

2388
02:21:57,879 --> 02:22:02,359
Speaker 1: organizing and activism work that happens out there that feels

2389
02:22:03,600 --> 02:22:08,560
Speaker 1: that's hard and that is necessary to do. But just

2390
02:22:08,760 --> 02:22:12,240
Speaker 1: because a lot of the important work to be done

2391
02:22:12,360 --> 02:22:16,040
Speaker 1: is hard doesn't mean everything that's hard is important, and

2392
02:22:16,600 --> 02:22:22,080
Speaker 1: everything that's fun is you know, trifling or not going

2393
02:22:22,200 --> 02:22:26,560
Speaker 1: to help us get where we're going and and overthrow

2394
02:22:26,640 --> 02:22:31,840
Speaker 1: capitalism and build a new world. So um, yeah, those

2395
02:22:31,840 --> 02:22:34,360
Speaker 1: are those are some of the reasons. Yeah, and I

2396
02:22:34,440 --> 02:22:37,200
Speaker 1: think that's especially sort of interesting point because I think

2397
02:22:38,200 --> 02:22:41,640
Speaker 1: a lot of what happens in left to spaces you

2398
02:22:41,680 --> 02:22:45,240
Speaker 1: get a lot of people doing stuff and they burn

2399
02:22:45,280 --> 02:22:48,080
Speaker 1: not really fast because you know, you're doing an enormous

2400
02:22:48,120 --> 02:22:50,960
Speaker 1: amount of work. It's all miserable. A lot of the

2401
02:22:51,000 --> 02:22:55,879
Speaker 1: times you're getting physically assaulted, and like, I think that's

2402
02:22:55,879 --> 02:22:57,240
Speaker 1: one of the things that's interesting to me about this

2403
02:22:57,400 --> 02:23:05,119
Speaker 1: is you need other forms of sort of community building

2404
02:23:05,200 --> 02:23:08,680
Speaker 1: and sort of like you need other forms of organizing

2405
02:23:08,720 --> 02:23:11,680
Speaker 1: that do not involve you being repeatedly traumatized over and

2406
02:23:11,760 --> 02:23:18,480
Speaker 1: over again. And that, yeah, especially just working on something

2407
02:23:18,560 --> 02:23:20,240
Speaker 1: like this, and then I don't know, just playing with

2408
02:23:20,360 --> 02:23:23,360
Speaker 1: your friends and having having things that are like collaborative

2409
02:23:23,360 --> 02:23:26,279
Speaker 1: and joyful and community building is I think very important

2410
02:23:27,000 --> 02:23:29,120
Speaker 1: as a way to just you know, even just this

2411
02:23:29,200 --> 02:23:31,560
Speaker 1: is on a very basic logistical level, but prevent people

2412
02:23:31,560 --> 02:23:36,720
Speaker 1: from burning out. Yeah, And and I definitely think that

2413
02:23:36,800 --> 02:23:39,280
Speaker 1: there's a role there to prevent people from burning out

2414
02:23:39,680 --> 02:23:43,400
Speaker 1: and and inspiring people with some of the fun ideas,

2415
02:23:43,480 --> 02:23:45,040
Speaker 1: the ideas that they come up with when they're not

2416
02:23:45,400 --> 02:23:48,480
Speaker 1: looking at a Google doc meeting notes but instead they're

2417
02:23:48,480 --> 02:23:50,760
Speaker 1: playing a card game and maybe drinking a couple of beers,

2418
02:23:51,480 --> 02:23:55,320
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, how would I combine guerrilla gardening?

2419
02:23:56,120 --> 02:24:01,600
Speaker 1: And um, you know performance are too who bring about

2420
02:24:01,680 --> 02:24:04,480
Speaker 1: you know, to solve a specific challenge of capitalism like

2421
02:24:04,640 --> 02:24:08,680
Speaker 1: deforestation or these are some of the cards in the game. Um.

2422
02:24:09,280 --> 02:24:11,760
Speaker 1: And so I think it can be inspiring, you know,

2423
02:24:12,120 --> 02:24:17,040
Speaker 1: it's also um, it can be educational. I played with

2424
02:24:17,200 --> 02:24:20,000
Speaker 1: some family. Uh. I think the first time I played,

2425
02:24:20,080 --> 02:24:22,840
Speaker 1: when we got the physical copy that wasn't a play test,

2426
02:24:23,440 --> 02:24:28,480
Speaker 1: was with some family and they don't necessarily identify as

2427
02:24:28,640 --> 02:24:33,360
Speaker 1: leftists of any kind, but we had a really fun

2428
02:24:34,080 --> 02:24:42,240
Speaker 1: game where we explored ideas of deconstructing borders, and uh,

2429
02:24:43,040 --> 02:24:46,080
Speaker 1: you know, they were It wasn't like I was guiding

2430
02:24:46,120 --> 02:24:47,560
Speaker 1: them in this direction. It was just kind of the

2431
02:24:47,640 --> 02:24:51,240
Speaker 1: assumption of the game that there was utopia, got beyond

2432
02:24:51,480 --> 02:24:55,880
Speaker 1: this ingrained capitalist realism, that there just isn't that there

2433
02:24:55,920 --> 02:24:58,520
Speaker 1: isn't an alternative. And they're like, okay, well the game

2434
02:24:58,560 --> 02:25:01,400
Speaker 1: says we're already in utopia, so that means there's no

2435
02:25:01,520 --> 02:25:04,160
Speaker 1: private property. And I was like, whoa, that's a that's

2436
02:25:04,200 --> 02:25:06,880
Speaker 1: a jump I didn't expect from my from my family.

2437
02:25:09,080 --> 02:25:12,760
Speaker 1: One thing I'm interested in in terms of how it

2438
02:25:12,879 --> 02:25:18,000
Speaker 1: functions as a game is like balancing the actual more

2439
02:25:18,400 --> 02:25:21,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, fund based like role playing game elements

2440
02:25:22,440 --> 02:25:27,680
Speaker 1: with like it's kind of structure as a thought exercise,

2441
02:25:27,720 --> 02:25:30,440
Speaker 1: and like a world building game, like how how how

2442
02:25:30,520 --> 02:25:32,280
Speaker 1: do you approach trying to get a balance of like

2443
02:25:33,120 --> 02:25:35,560
Speaker 1: fun role playing as well as this type of like

2444
02:25:35,720 --> 02:25:40,280
Speaker 1: reverse world building. I was kind of I was still

2445
02:25:40,400 --> 02:25:42,880
Speaker 1: a little bit on the y A game in the

2446
02:25:42,959 --> 02:25:47,520
Speaker 1: first place question, but I'm also intrigued by the balancing

2447
02:25:48,680 --> 02:25:53,800
Speaker 1: fun and politics question. If you don't mind, I wanted

2448
02:25:53,840 --> 02:25:56,400
Speaker 1: to go back to the y A game for just

2449
02:25:56,520 --> 02:25:59,840
Speaker 1: a second, um, because I think maybe it will lead

2450
02:25:59,879 --> 02:26:06,200
Speaker 1: to this. Games are, you know, an ancient form of art.

2451
02:26:06,240 --> 02:26:09,480
Speaker 1: I know, I said we work in new media before,

2452
02:26:09,680 --> 02:26:12,760
Speaker 1: but games are actually an ancient form of art, and

2453
02:26:12,959 --> 02:26:18,199
Speaker 1: I would argue social practice. Um. There's a game called Senate.

2454
02:26:18,600 --> 02:26:22,000
Speaker 1: There's a game called The Royal Game of r which

2455
02:26:22,120 --> 02:26:26,320
Speaker 1: both date to five thousand years ago in ancient Egypt

2456
02:26:26,400 --> 02:26:32,360
Speaker 1: and ancient Mesopotamia, respectively. We did in making the game,

2457
02:26:32,440 --> 02:26:34,240
Speaker 1: we did a bunch of research on the history of

2458
02:26:34,920 --> 02:26:39,280
Speaker 1: of games. There's a fifteenth century game called the Game

2459
02:26:39,320 --> 02:26:43,320
Speaker 1: of the Goose from uh well, present day Italy that

2460
02:26:43,560 --> 02:26:49,879
Speaker 1: paired like these gorgeous illustrations, also with like didactic moral instruction.

2461
02:26:50,760 --> 02:26:55,200
Speaker 1: In the early early twentieth century, the Surrealists created a

2462
02:26:55,320 --> 02:26:59,560
Speaker 1: series of games UM with the intention of breaking through

2463
02:27:00,200 --> 02:27:06,680
Speaker 1: traditional thought patterns and unleashing the potentials of the unconscious.

2464
02:27:07,240 --> 02:27:11,400
Speaker 1: They also wanted to subvert academic modes of inquiry. UM.

2465
02:27:11,520 --> 02:27:14,600
Speaker 1: And then today, you know, some of our most popular

2466
02:27:15,120 --> 02:27:18,640
Speaker 1: table top games. You know, I think Nick was mentioning

2467
02:27:18,680 --> 02:27:24,120
Speaker 1: this earlier, how they can sometimes inscribe oppressive logics. So,

2468
02:27:24,480 --> 02:27:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, rather than a game where you're competing against

2469
02:27:28,440 --> 02:27:31,680
Speaker 1: other players to drive them into poverty, or a game

2470
02:27:31,760 --> 02:27:37,840
Speaker 1: where you're trying to colonize other players land, you know,

2471
02:27:38,000 --> 02:27:40,960
Speaker 1: for the purpose of world domination, we wanted to make

2472
02:27:40,959 --> 02:27:48,680
Speaker 1: a game that actually practices the cooperation, interdependence, care, consent, uh,

2473
02:27:48,879 --> 02:27:50,520
Speaker 1: these things that will be needed, you know, if we

2474
02:27:50,720 --> 02:27:55,080
Speaker 1: actually to transcend the social ecological crises of our day.

2475
02:27:56,080 --> 02:27:57,840
Speaker 1: And kind of to that point, you know, I would

2476
02:27:57,879 --> 02:28:03,160
Speaker 1: say that games always reflect the beliefs and norms of

2477
02:28:03,240 --> 02:28:07,560
Speaker 1: their historical context. So with Solar Punk Futures, we wanted

2478
02:28:07,600 --> 02:28:12,280
Speaker 1: to kind of flip the script and UM project using

2479
02:28:12,520 --> 02:28:16,359
Speaker 1: you know, the modalities of like speculative fiction, collaborative performance.

2480
02:28:16,360 --> 02:28:21,720
Speaker 1: As I mentioned, the values and more is of a

2481
02:28:21,920 --> 02:28:26,959
Speaker 1: of a desirable future. So games are are very human thing,

2482
02:28:27,080 --> 02:28:31,560
Speaker 1: an ancient human thing. And why do people play games? Uh?

2483
02:28:32,800 --> 02:28:35,240
Speaker 1: As I mentioned, you know, education is part of it

2484
02:28:36,120 --> 02:28:39,800
Speaker 1: um but also building social bonds is another important piece

2485
02:28:39,879 --> 02:28:42,880
Speaker 1: and that always is a company. It's a very like

2486
02:28:42,959 --> 02:28:44,960
Speaker 1: academic way of talking about it, maybe, but it is.

2487
02:28:45,480 --> 02:28:47,119
Speaker 1: It is fun. It has to be fun. That's why

2488
02:28:47,200 --> 02:28:50,680
Speaker 1: people do it. In terms of the To get a

2489
02:28:50,720 --> 02:28:53,800
Speaker 1: little deeper into the balancing question, you know, every game

2490
02:28:53,920 --> 02:28:56,640
Speaker 1: is a balance between a bunch of different competing factors.

2491
02:28:56,760 --> 02:28:58,920
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people who were talking about the

2492
02:28:58,959 --> 02:29:04,360
Speaker 1: balance between randomness and planning in in games, and the

2493
02:29:04,440 --> 02:29:09,959
Speaker 1: balance between structure and free form and it's definitely something

2494
02:29:10,720 --> 02:29:13,280
Speaker 1: if there's any game designers out there thinking about making,

2495
02:29:13,600 --> 02:29:16,400
Speaker 1: you know, games like this, play testing it will help

2496
02:29:16,480 --> 02:29:20,840
Speaker 1: you so much because you know, the game in a

2497
02:29:21,000 --> 02:29:24,600
Speaker 1: rough form existed in the spring of last year, but

2498
02:29:25,040 --> 02:29:30,560
Speaker 1: playtesting really helped us refine a lot of those questions

2499
02:29:30,680 --> 02:29:36,000
Speaker 1: and find that kind of balance between structure and freeformness.

2500
02:29:36,160 --> 02:29:38,760
Speaker 1: We wanted it to be accessible to people who aren't

2501
02:29:39,040 --> 02:29:42,760
Speaker 1: d n D players. But we've also played with people

2502
02:29:42,800 --> 02:29:44,879
Speaker 1: who play a lot of d n D and GM

2503
02:29:44,959 --> 02:29:48,160
Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and they took it in a

2504
02:29:48,280 --> 02:29:50,600
Speaker 1: lot of fun and wild directions that we didn't expect.

2505
02:29:50,760 --> 02:29:53,760
Speaker 1: That helped inform kind of new ways that we could.

2506
02:29:54,440 --> 02:29:56,600
Speaker 1: You know, we added some optional rules in there for

2507
02:29:56,680 --> 02:29:59,520
Speaker 1: people who want to take it in a different direction

2508
02:29:59,760 --> 02:30:03,000
Speaker 1: or or add more complexity, or or even or for

2509
02:30:03,080 --> 02:30:05,560
Speaker 1: other people who need a little bit like a handhold

2510
02:30:05,600 --> 02:30:07,720
Speaker 1: and want to flip a coin to decide something rather

2511
02:30:07,800 --> 02:30:12,440
Speaker 1: than um, you know, come up with it totally on

2512
02:30:12,480 --> 02:30:16,920
Speaker 1: their own. So I think, um, yeah, it's a hard

2513
02:30:17,120 --> 02:30:20,240
Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to balance, you know, all the

2514
02:30:20,280 --> 02:30:23,119
Speaker 1: different factors that go into a game. But I definitely

2515
02:30:23,160 --> 02:30:25,920
Speaker 1: think play testing and all the people who played with

2516
02:30:26,080 --> 02:30:29,360
Speaker 1: us in those early games really helped helped us figure

2517
02:30:29,400 --> 02:30:33,840
Speaker 1: out the right balance. And to your earlier point about burnout,

2518
02:30:34,560 --> 02:30:39,680
Speaker 1: like activists burnout, Um, some people who we've invited to

2519
02:30:39,959 --> 02:30:46,440
Speaker 1: play the game maybe have have expressed this idea of like, well, um,

2520
02:30:46,840 --> 02:30:50,760
Speaker 1: I'd love to, but I don't have time, and maybe

2521
02:30:51,920 --> 02:30:56,880
Speaker 1: maybe they they think of of gaming And I know

2522
02:30:56,959 --> 02:31:00,440
Speaker 1: I've certainly been guilty of this too, of feeling guilt

2523
02:31:00,520 --> 02:31:03,240
Speaker 1: over things that feel like it indulges like you should

2524
02:31:03,240 --> 02:31:07,400
Speaker 1: be doing the real work all the time. But you know,

2525
02:31:07,560 --> 02:31:11,640
Speaker 1: I think it's important to hold that in the perspective

2526
02:31:11,840 --> 02:31:19,160
Speaker 1: of the tradition of of feminism, civil rights advocates, others

2527
02:31:19,200 --> 02:31:21,800
Speaker 1: on the left that have talked about the importance of

2528
02:31:22,959 --> 02:31:26,680
Speaker 1: um joy that needs to be integral to our struggles.

2529
02:31:26,720 --> 02:31:29,760
Speaker 1: There's the famous I'm a Goldman quip. If I can't dance,

2530
02:31:29,840 --> 02:31:34,400
Speaker 1: it's not my revolution. So perhaps you know, these ideas

2531
02:31:34,480 --> 02:31:37,840
Speaker 1: of like guilt and shame or martyrdom or whatever need

2532
02:31:37,959 --> 02:31:40,440
Speaker 1: are kind of toxic parts of the old world that

2533
02:31:40,600 --> 02:31:44,720
Speaker 1: we need to to let go of. UM. So I

2534
02:31:44,760 --> 02:31:47,120
Speaker 1: guess this is kind of coming back to say that there's,

2535
02:31:48,400 --> 02:31:50,520
Speaker 1: as as Nick was saying, there is an ethical, pre

2536
02:31:50,640 --> 02:31:55,480
Speaker 1: figurative case of um of how games can allow people

2537
02:31:55,560 --> 02:32:01,320
Speaker 1: to um express themselves through play, but there's also a

2538
02:32:01,600 --> 02:32:05,640
Speaker 1: tactical one, and that games can be a structured way

2539
02:32:05,720 --> 02:32:09,520
Speaker 1: of thinking about how do we create a liberated society

2540
02:32:10,400 --> 02:32:13,160
Speaker 1: one everything I think is sort of interesting about. Well, like,

2541
02:32:13,240 --> 02:32:17,920
Speaker 1: I guess this is somewhat less true of tabletop games

2542
02:32:18,959 --> 02:32:22,280
Speaker 1: as in medium, because tapletop games are a lot of

2543
02:32:22,760 --> 02:32:26,400
Speaker 1: sort of cloudy storytelling is stuff. But like I know,

2544
02:32:26,640 --> 02:32:29,320
Speaker 1: like like so like I play a lot of video games, right,

2545
02:32:29,320 --> 02:32:34,439
Speaker 1: and it's like it's like a lot of the structure

2546
02:32:34,879 --> 02:32:43,160
Speaker 1: of what gaming is is sort of like it basically

2547
02:32:43,160 --> 02:32:46,320
Speaker 1: it turned into like another job that you have and

2548
02:32:46,640 --> 02:32:50,080
Speaker 1: it's interesting. Yeah, I mean, you know, and you you like,

2549
02:32:50,120 --> 02:32:52,360
Speaker 1: you get, you get the same you even get like

2550
02:32:52,440 --> 02:32:56,160
Speaker 1: bogo like crossover between the terminology of like like you know,

2551
02:32:56,280 --> 02:33:01,480
Speaker 1: like I think like grinding is like mind yeah, like mind.

2552
02:33:01,920 --> 02:33:03,880
Speaker 1: I think I think that came from gaming first and

2553
02:33:03,959 --> 02:33:06,520
Speaker 1: then moved over into the weird grindset stuff. But like

2554
02:33:06,800 --> 02:33:10,560
Speaker 1: I think you're right, yeah yeah, and gamification, right, that's

2555
02:33:10,600 --> 02:33:15,120
Speaker 1: another way that like gaming is being almost like weaponized

2556
02:33:15,160 --> 02:33:17,760
Speaker 1: by capitalism to get squeezed just a little bit more

2557
02:33:17,840 --> 02:33:21,920
Speaker 1: out of everyone. Yeah, there's there's a really interesting article

2558
02:33:22,120 --> 02:33:29,760
Speaker 1: whose name I am forgetting because I am yeah, I um,

2559
02:33:30,440 --> 02:33:33,600
Speaker 1: but Vicky Oustawal wrote it like a while ago that

2560
02:33:33,720 --> 02:33:40,480
Speaker 1: was about how like games are like it's you know,

2561
02:33:40,560 --> 02:33:42,680
Speaker 1: it's it's used sort of mechanically doing the same thing

2562
02:33:42,760 --> 02:33:44,440
Speaker 1: over and over and over again. But it's it's a

2563
02:33:44,440 --> 02:33:47,720
Speaker 1: problem because it's like it's it's labor that's like too perfect.

2564
02:33:47,760 --> 02:33:49,520
Speaker 1: I gues it doesn't create anything. There's no sort of

2565
02:33:49,640 --> 02:33:54,080
Speaker 1: like I like, there's there's no sort of like um

2566
02:33:55,200 --> 02:33:58,760
Speaker 1: like aspect that produces like value that could be extracted.

2567
02:33:58,800 --> 02:34:00,120
Speaker 1: You're just sort of you're just doing a thing and

2568
02:34:00,240 --> 02:34:02,920
Speaker 1: over again, and it's like and you know, and that

2569
02:34:03,080 --> 02:34:04,920
Speaker 1: then then that you know, becomes a problem for capital

2570
02:34:04,959 --> 02:34:06,680
Speaker 1: in some sense, is why there's all these panics about

2571
02:34:06,680 --> 02:34:09,000
Speaker 1: like everyone being addicted to gaming, because it's like, well, okay,

2572
02:34:09,080 --> 02:34:12,400
Speaker 1: you're not making money for us. But I think it's

2573
02:34:12,520 --> 02:34:16,680
Speaker 1: interesting truck simulator you could be driving some actual yeah, yeah,

2574
02:34:18,120 --> 02:34:22,400
Speaker 1: but you know, I think it's interesting that this is

2575
02:34:22,440 --> 02:34:25,760
Speaker 1: a political intervention into that of creating something that's you know,

2576
02:34:25,920 --> 02:34:28,360
Speaker 1: precisely the opposite of that that it's you know, you're

2577
02:34:28,400 --> 02:34:31,400
Speaker 1: not sort of like it's not just like an incredible

2578
02:34:31,440 --> 02:34:35,120
Speaker 1: intensification of the sort of like reward systems of working.

2579
02:34:35,320 --> 02:34:37,720
Speaker 1: It's hey, we're gonna come together and we're gonna tell

2580
02:34:38,080 --> 02:34:41,640
Speaker 1: we're gonna you know, make collaborative decisions and overcome challenges.

2581
02:34:41,640 --> 02:34:43,280
Speaker 1: And I think I think that's a very interesting sort

2582
02:34:43,320 --> 02:34:48,000
Speaker 1: of political angle to come at this from. Yeah, I

2583
02:34:48,080 --> 02:34:52,720
Speaker 1: think a lot of a lot of tabletop games in

2584
02:34:52,800 --> 02:34:57,440
Speaker 1: particular compared to video games. I think, well, I'll say

2585
02:34:57,560 --> 02:35:00,520
Speaker 1: role playing games in particular put you in a driver's

2586
02:35:00,560 --> 02:35:04,879
Speaker 1: seat in a way that I think can is is hard, right,

2587
02:35:05,000 --> 02:35:07,840
Speaker 1: Like sometimes I'm too tired to or if I think,

2588
02:35:08,080 --> 02:35:09,720
Speaker 1: you know, I have a I have a D and

2589
02:35:09,800 --> 02:35:11,600
Speaker 1: D night, and I'm like, I don't know if I

2590
02:35:11,640 --> 02:35:14,600
Speaker 1: have the energy for this after working all day. Um,

2591
02:35:15,480 --> 02:35:18,520
Speaker 1: whereas I might have energy to play you know, a

2592
02:35:19,240 --> 02:35:21,680
Speaker 1: video game RPG that kind of walks me, you know,

2593
02:35:21,840 --> 02:35:24,920
Speaker 1: handholds me through a story. Um, it's kind of more

2594
02:35:25,000 --> 02:35:29,280
Speaker 1: like watching more passive. Um. But I do think that

2595
02:35:29,400 --> 02:35:40,400
Speaker 1: there's I just think there's something so important about thinking

2596
02:35:40,720 --> 02:35:44,960
Speaker 1: through what it might be like to live in this

2597
02:35:45,200 --> 02:35:50,440
Speaker 1: utopian society. And it's important, I think because if we don't, well,

2598
02:35:50,520 --> 02:35:52,800
Speaker 1: for one, a ton of people just don't even think

2599
02:35:52,840 --> 02:35:56,040
Speaker 1: about it. Um. And so to the extent that this

2600
02:35:56,200 --> 02:35:59,240
Speaker 1: game is something that gets bought or played with families

2601
02:35:59,240 --> 02:36:01,959
Speaker 1: of people who are you know, one of the many

2602
02:36:02,040 --> 02:36:05,640
Speaker 1: people who have been de politicized in this country, UM,

2603
02:36:06,000 --> 02:36:07,840
Speaker 1: I think that can be really helpful. But I also

2604
02:36:07,959 --> 02:36:13,400
Speaker 1: think that um, I've played it, and I've found really

2605
02:36:13,640 --> 02:36:17,360
Speaker 1: fun and exciting ideas that I wouldn't have thought about

2606
02:36:17,440 --> 02:36:20,080
Speaker 1: if I was staring at a power map or something

2607
02:36:20,200 --> 02:36:24,000
Speaker 1: and thinking where can we intervene in my city too,

2608
02:36:24,879 --> 02:36:28,520
Speaker 1: you know, help help solve this or that problem. So

2609
02:36:28,640 --> 02:36:31,840
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I think there's power there. So I think.

2610
02:36:31,920 --> 02:36:33,840
Speaker 1: One of the other things I think is interesting to

2611
02:36:33,920 --> 02:36:36,840
Speaker 1: me about how you Tube sort of the team put

2612
02:36:36,879 --> 02:36:38,560
Speaker 1: this project together is And it's also like you know,

2613
02:36:38,600 --> 02:36:40,240
Speaker 1: so like you can buy the versions of it that

2614
02:36:40,320 --> 02:36:43,040
Speaker 1: have like very very nice art, but you also just

2615
02:36:43,200 --> 02:36:45,160
Speaker 1: put the cards and the rules up for free and

2616
02:36:45,160 --> 02:36:47,080
Speaker 1: you can just sort of print and play it. So owner, yeah,

2617
02:36:47,080 --> 02:36:48,600
Speaker 1: if you could talk a bit about decision you do

2618
02:36:48,760 --> 02:36:53,600
Speaker 1: that democratic accessibility is really important to us. It's part

2619
02:36:53,640 --> 02:36:57,680
Speaker 1: of the concept that we wanted to integrate into every

2620
02:36:57,800 --> 02:37:02,400
Speaker 1: aspect of the game's production and distribution. And so yeah,

2621
02:37:02,480 --> 02:37:06,120
Speaker 1: the whole thing is available as a free print and

2622
02:37:06,200 --> 02:37:11,400
Speaker 1: play PDF download. UM. It's all Creative Commons licensed UM.

2623
02:37:12,800 --> 02:37:15,720
Speaker 1: So that's yeah. And you know, at the same time,

2624
02:37:15,800 --> 02:37:21,320
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, we we uh are interested in materiality

2625
02:37:22,000 --> 02:37:28,240
Speaker 1: and want wanted to create, um something that could could

2626
02:37:28,240 --> 02:37:31,520
Speaker 1: accompany you know, a face to face interaction as well,

2627
02:37:31,600 --> 02:37:34,560
Speaker 1: which is you know, frankly, well, I'll just speak for myself.

2628
02:37:34,640 --> 02:37:38,160
Speaker 1: That's probably more my interest. Um, even though I think

2629
02:37:38,320 --> 02:37:41,480
Speaker 1: you know like that we have a tabletop simulator version two,

2630
02:37:41,480 --> 02:37:44,320
Speaker 1: which I think is really cool. But as far as

2631
02:37:44,400 --> 02:37:49,280
Speaker 1: the decision to make the game, you know, free, free forever. Um,

2632
02:37:49,760 --> 02:37:51,480
Speaker 1: we want people to play, We want it to be

2633
02:37:51,800 --> 02:37:56,440
Speaker 1: genuinely useful. Um. This is not a this is not

2634
02:37:56,560 --> 02:38:00,880
Speaker 1: a capitalistic business venture. We're running a break even budget

2635
02:38:01,000 --> 02:38:04,520
Speaker 1: and want to just keep doing projects and you know,

2636
02:38:04,640 --> 02:38:09,080
Speaker 1: elaborating like the solar punk tradition and connecting it to social, ecological,

2637
02:38:09,160 --> 02:38:13,840
Speaker 1: communalist politics. So if this can be a catalyst towards

2638
02:38:14,040 --> 02:38:18,720
Speaker 1: being able to do more of that, then um, then

2639
02:38:18,879 --> 02:38:21,800
Speaker 1: that's you know, we'll have we'll have succeeded on our

2640
02:38:21,879 --> 02:38:24,800
Speaker 1: on our terms at least. What's the set us of

2641
02:38:25,120 --> 02:38:28,040
Speaker 1: physical copies of how can people if they want to

2642
02:38:28,240 --> 02:38:33,000
Speaker 1: use cards and stuff? What is how how would one

2643
02:38:33,120 --> 02:38:35,600
Speaker 1: go about getting those? Yeah, so there's a couple of

2644
02:38:35,600 --> 02:38:39,640
Speaker 1: different ways people can download the free print and play

2645
02:38:39,640 --> 02:38:42,280
Speaker 1: if they like. If they really love it, they want

2646
02:38:42,280 --> 02:38:45,680
Speaker 1: to buy the physical copy. We sold out of the

2647
02:38:45,959 --> 02:38:49,120
Speaker 1: kind of first edition that we were able to afford

2648
02:38:49,280 --> 02:38:53,000
Speaker 1: to print. But we're raising money on Kickstarter for a

2649
02:38:53,040 --> 02:38:56,800
Speaker 1: second edition. So if people back us at a certain

2650
02:38:56,840 --> 02:39:00,440
Speaker 1: tier there, I think it's forty five dollars or higher. Uh,

2651
02:39:00,720 --> 02:39:03,040
Speaker 1: you get a copy of the game when we're able

2652
02:39:03,080 --> 02:39:06,800
Speaker 1: to print them. Uh and so yeah, so it's a

2653
02:39:07,720 --> 02:39:10,480
Speaker 1: um and of course, as Max mentioned, you can also

2654
02:39:10,520 --> 02:39:15,199
Speaker 1: play on tabletop simulator. But yeah, we're we're really excited

2655
02:39:15,240 --> 02:39:18,600
Speaker 1: about it. I think we're also hoping to take it

2656
02:39:18,720 --> 02:39:24,160
Speaker 1: around to some you know, political workshops, probably on Zoom

2657
02:39:24,240 --> 02:39:29,640
Speaker 1: for the foreseeable future, get maybe game convention, tabletop game

2658
02:39:29,680 --> 02:39:34,119
Speaker 1: conventions and stuff, and also some art art shows um

2659
02:39:34,600 --> 02:39:38,040
Speaker 1: to be announced, to be announced, but there's a couple

2660
02:39:38,080 --> 02:39:40,880
Speaker 1: of art shows that we're excited to be showing it in.

2661
02:39:41,080 --> 02:39:45,520
Speaker 1: So um yeah. Yeah. One one thing I'm really excited

2662
02:39:45,520 --> 02:39:48,800
Speaker 1: about in terms of playing this at some point is

2663
02:39:49,080 --> 02:39:54,959
Speaker 1: the I think starting from the point of like you're

2664
02:39:55,040 --> 02:39:59,160
Speaker 1: trying to build the world now, you can really easy,

2665
02:39:59,440 --> 02:40:03,240
Speaker 1: it's really easy to run into ruts um starting at

2666
02:40:03,280 --> 02:40:07,080
Speaker 1: the end point than working backwards, I think because that

2667
02:40:07,320 --> 02:40:11,040
Speaker 1: produces that reverse type of thought. I think it's a

2668
02:40:11,120 --> 02:40:14,720
Speaker 1: little bit easier for to find the path than just

2669
02:40:14,920 --> 02:40:17,000
Speaker 1: starting here and looking at the world to be like oh,

2670
02:40:17,440 --> 02:40:20,760
Speaker 1: how do we do anything to make it better? Instead

2671
02:40:20,760 --> 02:40:22,880
Speaker 1: of being at the opposite place and being like, what's

2672
02:40:23,000 --> 02:40:26,720
Speaker 1: what is the way to backtrack? I think can maybe

2673
02:40:26,760 --> 02:40:29,920
Speaker 1: give you some connections and ideas that you may not

2674
02:40:30,040 --> 02:40:34,320
Speaker 1: have had otherwise because we're kind of always stuck in

2675
02:40:34,360 --> 02:40:37,880
Speaker 1: the now. How do we get now better? So I

2676
02:40:38,200 --> 02:40:41,640
Speaker 1: would be very excited to uh try try this out

2677
02:40:41,800 --> 02:40:47,000
Speaker 1: at some point and uh and experience that backtrack thinking,

2678
02:40:47,200 --> 02:40:51,040
Speaker 1: because I think it's a Yeah, I'm really intrigued with

2679
02:40:51,080 --> 02:40:53,600
Speaker 1: that specific aspect of the game because yeah, I'm sure

2680
02:40:53,600 --> 02:40:55,200
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of solar punk games within

2681
02:40:55,240 --> 02:40:58,800
Speaker 1: the next decade probably, um, and this is one aspect

2682
02:40:58,840 --> 02:41:01,160
Speaker 1: that I think actually is unique and something that's not

2683
02:41:01,320 --> 02:41:04,720
Speaker 1: just intrinsic to sell their punk um, you know, it's

2684
02:41:04,760 --> 02:41:08,480
Speaker 1: something that's kind of been added on. So uh, that's

2685
02:41:08,480 --> 02:41:12,000
Speaker 1: something I'm really excited about. And yeah, I would love

2686
02:41:12,040 --> 02:41:17,560
Speaker 1: to love to pick this up uh soon. Yeah, thank

2687
02:41:17,560 --> 02:41:19,920
Speaker 1: you for saying that. Um. I think one of the

2688
02:41:20,000 --> 02:41:24,720
Speaker 1: things that we hope that the game does is help

2689
02:41:24,760 --> 02:41:29,000
Speaker 1: people break through that capitalist realism. Yeah, Like there is

2690
02:41:29,040 --> 02:41:31,320
Speaker 1: no alternative. It's easier to imagine the end of the

2691
02:41:31,360 --> 02:41:35,880
Speaker 1: world than the end of capitalism, etcetera. UM. And you know, similarly,

2692
02:41:36,120 --> 02:41:39,600
Speaker 1: if you ask people to imagine the future, uh, it's

2693
02:41:39,720 --> 02:41:43,320
Speaker 1: very hard and uh and if they are able to

2694
02:41:43,640 --> 02:41:48,160
Speaker 1: at all, it is often extrapolating sort of the worst

2695
02:41:48,240 --> 02:41:53,840
Speaker 1: trends of today into a dystopian future. Yeah, I remember slightly.

2696
02:41:53,879 --> 02:41:55,960
Speaker 1: I remember so when when I was in I was

2697
02:41:56,000 --> 02:41:57,960
Speaker 1: in middle school or something, we had this acietm where

2698
02:41:57,959 --> 02:42:00,040
Speaker 1: we had to like write a you like, right, what

2699
02:42:00,120 --> 02:42:03,080
Speaker 1: are perfect like utopian society would be? And we like

2700
02:42:03,240 --> 02:42:05,920
Speaker 1: did it, and like three quarters of the like society

2701
02:42:06,000 --> 02:42:08,880
Speaker 1: people come up with were just like the worst imaginable

2702
02:42:08,959 --> 02:42:14,120
Speaker 1: dystopia and it was just like, it's just really grim certific. Yeah,

2703
02:42:14,160 --> 02:42:16,480
Speaker 1: if I was gonna if I was gonna make what

2704
02:42:16,640 --> 02:42:19,800
Speaker 1: I thought was an accurate prediction of the future, it

2705
02:42:20,959 --> 02:42:24,040
Speaker 1: might be more similar to the first season of this

2706
02:42:24,160 --> 02:42:30,119
Speaker 1: podcast than uh, some of the hopeful futures. But I don't.

2707
02:42:30,200 --> 02:42:32,440
Speaker 1: I also don't think. I don't think the door is

2708
02:42:32,520 --> 02:42:36,200
Speaker 1: closed on any kind of solar punk future. I think

2709
02:42:36,240 --> 02:42:38,560
Speaker 1: it's important. One of the important aspects that we included

2710
02:42:38,720 --> 02:42:42,040
Speaker 1: that that is that makes solar punk different than just

2711
02:42:42,760 --> 02:42:47,280
Speaker 1: kind of vague utopianism is that we think we asked

2712
02:42:47,280 --> 02:42:49,520
Speaker 1: people to also think about the barriers they run into,

2713
02:42:50,040 --> 02:42:52,960
Speaker 1: to think about, you know what, who's gonna who's gonna

2714
02:42:53,000 --> 02:42:59,800
Speaker 1: oppose you if you're trying to um, you know, deal

2715
02:42:59,840 --> 02:43:06,200
Speaker 1: with polluted water and you find some really great system

2716
02:43:06,360 --> 02:43:10,120
Speaker 1: and improve a region's water supply. You know, Nestley might

2717
02:43:10,160 --> 02:43:12,760
Speaker 1: come in and buy the rights to the whole region,

2718
02:43:12,959 --> 02:43:17,080
Speaker 1: the whole watershed. So you know, imagining those that opposition,

2719
02:43:17,440 --> 02:43:23,040
Speaker 1: the material conditions that might change, and how you adapt

2720
02:43:23,080 --> 02:43:26,240
Speaker 1: to them. We hope that's something that people also benefit

2721
02:43:26,320 --> 02:43:32,680
Speaker 1: from who played this game and and make some predictions

2722
02:43:32,760 --> 02:43:35,959
Speaker 1: about the strategic decisions that capital is going to make

2723
02:43:36,040 --> 02:43:40,080
Speaker 1: to oppose your your utopian vision. And I hope there

2724
02:43:40,120 --> 02:43:43,520
Speaker 1: are more solar punk games, Like you said, I hope

2725
02:43:43,520 --> 02:43:47,160
Speaker 1: there's a preponderance of solar punk art in the in

2726
02:43:47,240 --> 02:43:49,800
Speaker 1: the next decade. That would be amazing. And you know,

2727
02:43:50,240 --> 02:43:52,600
Speaker 1: to what you were just saying, you're right, solar punk

2728
02:43:52,640 --> 02:43:56,160
Speaker 1: doesn't mean the end of politics, doesn't mean the absence

2729
02:43:56,200 --> 02:44:00,440
Speaker 1: of conflict. Um. So I think we tried to integrate

2730
02:44:00,520 --> 02:44:04,040
Speaker 1: that into the game. What makes a good solar punk

2731
02:44:04,120 --> 02:44:10,800
Speaker 1: stories that it is plausible yet distinctly anti utopian, anti dystopian,

2732
02:44:10,920 --> 02:44:16,600
Speaker 1: rather um it you know, provides a glimpse into a

2733
02:44:16,760 --> 02:44:23,360
Speaker 1: future possibility for say, the reharmonization of humans with other humans,

2734
02:44:23,480 --> 02:44:28,360
Speaker 1: humans with non human nature. Um and that is going

2735
02:44:28,480 --> 02:44:33,000
Speaker 1: to involve some amount of opposition on the one hand

2736
02:44:33,080 --> 02:44:37,800
Speaker 1: and reconstruction on the other. In short to to critique

2737
02:44:37,800 --> 02:44:42,360
Speaker 1: by building as the slogan goes, all right, yeah, plugs time,

2738
02:44:42,520 --> 02:44:46,440
Speaker 1: what do you what do you need to have plugs? Uh? So, Yeah,

2739
02:44:46,480 --> 02:44:49,920
Speaker 1: we have an upcoming live stream on Twitch with Veterans

2740
02:44:50,000 --> 02:44:52,920
Speaker 1: for Peace. They have some gamers for Peace and Tuesday

2741
02:44:53,080 --> 02:44:56,879
Speaker 1: night at eight p m they're gonna be playing solar

2742
02:44:56,959 --> 02:45:00,360
Speaker 1: Punk solar Punk Features with us. Uh. If people are

2743
02:45:00,360 --> 02:45:03,680
Speaker 1: interested in the game, they can download it for print

2744
02:45:03,760 --> 02:45:06,040
Speaker 1: and play on our website at h T T P

2745
02:45:06,720 --> 02:45:12,600
Speaker 1: colon slash Slash the Future dot WTF uh and uh.

2746
02:45:13,280 --> 02:45:15,960
Speaker 1: People can also find a link to our kickstarter on

2747
02:45:16,000 --> 02:45:20,040
Speaker 1: that website if they're interested in pre ordering physical copy,

2748
02:45:20,400 --> 02:45:23,920
Speaker 1: which we very much appreciate. We're getting close to funded.

2749
02:45:26,640 --> 02:45:28,680
Speaker 1: That's very exciting. I hope, I hope, I hope it

2750
02:45:28,680 --> 02:45:30,360
Speaker 1: gets fund and I want to see more of these

2751
02:45:30,480 --> 02:45:35,760
Speaker 1: because the art is extremely cool. And yeah, well, thank

2752
02:45:35,800 --> 02:45:38,200
Speaker 1: you to you for coming on this has been It

2753
02:45:38,200 --> 02:45:41,640
Speaker 1: could Happen here, and we'll see you the next time

2754
02:45:41,760 --> 02:45:44,840
Speaker 1: an episode goes up. I don't know when that's gonna

2755
02:45:44,840 --> 02:46:01,160
Speaker 1: be right now, So yeah, wonderful extros. Hey, We'll be

2756
02:46:01,200 --> 02:46:04,560
Speaker 1: back Monday with more episodes every week from now until

2757
02:46:04,600 --> 02:46:07,240
Speaker 1: the heat death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here

2758
02:46:07,320 --> 02:46:09,959
Speaker 1: is a production of cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts

2759
02:46:09,959 --> 02:46:12,520
Speaker 1: from cool zone Media, visit our website cool zone media

2760
02:46:12,600 --> 02:46:14,400
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the I Heart

2761
02:46:14,480 --> 02:46:17,440
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

2762
02:46:18,080 --> 02:46:20,160
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

2763
02:46:20,280 --> 02:46:23,720
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks

2764
02:46:23,760 --> 02:46:24,240
Speaker 1: for listening.