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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, there's Chuck,

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Speaker 2: there's Jerry, and he squeezes together in a one meter

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Speaker 2: square space. We're still doing pretty good on Stuff you

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Speaker 2: should Know, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, as funny as I was reading, and then we'll get

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Speaker 3: to it. But when things start to become problematic as

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Speaker 3: far as people per square meter, and I started to panic.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, Yeah, that didn't get me, But it occurred

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Speaker 2: to me that some people listening to this are going

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Speaker 2: to feel that way too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because we're talking about crowds, and if even the

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Speaker 3: discussion of being in very close proximity to someone else

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Speaker 3: triggers you, then consider this your warning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great, great job, Chuck. Yeah, sure, So we are

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Speaker 2: talking crowds today, Chuck, you spoiled the entire episode by

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Speaker 2: mentioning that, Yeah, I'm just kidding, buddy. And generally think

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Speaker 2: of this this huge mass of people, say like at

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Speaker 2: a concert or something like that, or a show if

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Speaker 2: you're into indie bands, but it can be any assemblage

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Speaker 2: of people, any group of people. I'm guessing more than

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Speaker 2: two if that old adage is correct, about three being

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Speaker 2: a crowd, but it can be anything from a bunch

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Speaker 2: of people in an elevator to a bunch of people

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Speaker 2: going to Mecca flocking to Mecca for the Hodge on

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Speaker 2: any given year.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think like technically just any any grouping who

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Speaker 3: put this one together.

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Speaker 4: By the way, initially.

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Speaker 2: This was a Julia joint And thank you for reminding

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Speaker 2: me before we go further. Kimberly from the Prison Labor

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Speaker 2: listener Mail is the person who got this one going.

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Speaker 2: So thanks Kimberly.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, thanks big time because I thought this was

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Speaker 3: super interesting. But yeah, yeah, I mean Julia did some

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Speaker 3: research and basically came back with this a crowd as

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Speaker 3: any group of people temporarily gathered in the same physical

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Speaker 3: relatively close to each other elevators.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I mean it's a little surprising if you think

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Speaker 2: about it. For some reason, I got hooked on the

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Speaker 2: elevator thing. But there's a lot of different reasons those

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Speaker 2: people could be together. They're all going to different floors

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Speaker 2: in the same building, say if they happen to be

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Speaker 2: on an elevator, or they could all have a shared

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Speaker 2: interest they're all at a gun show, or they have

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Speaker 2: a shared goal they're trying to overthrow their regime, their

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Speaker 2: ruling regime. There's all sorts of different reasons people come

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Speaker 2: together in crowds. Sometimes it's on purpose, sometimes it's not

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Speaker 2: planned by that person, but it just happens. And one

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Speaker 2: of the cool things is we've been studying crowds through

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Speaker 2: all sorts of different lenses, and we've kind of whittled

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Speaker 2: down to the fact that humans are essentially innately good

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Speaker 2: at navigating crowds for the most part.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, some of the stuff Julia came back

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Speaker 3: with was fairly like you might be a little scared

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Speaker 3: of crowds, but it is good to know that that

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Speaker 3: is sort of outdated thinking and why we will talk

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Speaker 3: about bad things that can happen in crowds. The modern

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Speaker 3: understanding of crowds, You're right, is that people are generally

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Speaker 3: pretty orderly, even in the face of disaster, and the

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Speaker 3: things that make a crowd go bad. A lot of

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Speaker 3: times it's not the crowd's fault.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they get blamed by authorities very frequently in retrospect,

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Speaker 2: and then in further retrospect it turns out like, no, actually,

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Speaker 2: the authorities are probably at fault in this case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's almost as if sometimes a peaceful

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Speaker 3: protest can turn bad when an armed military shows up, right,

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Speaker 3: just the presence of that, just the presence and then

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Speaker 3: other things that happen after.

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Speaker 2: Right, So yes, and we'll talk about that for sure,

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Speaker 2: because there is a huge role for law enforcement and

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Speaker 2: dealing with crowds, like it's part of their job. Sure,

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Speaker 2: crowd out, they say crowd control, but that's apparently an

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Speaker 2: outdated term as well. But dealing with crowds, managing crowds,

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Speaker 2: So that's part of their job. That's not gonna go away.

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Speaker 2: We don't really want it to go away. Instead, we

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Speaker 2: want law enforcement to do it in the using the

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Speaker 2: best practices that have been proven over and over again

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Speaker 2: that cut down the chance of a crowd turning ugly

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Speaker 2: by huge percentages.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know, one thing is for sure, like

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Speaker 3: people behave differently in crowds, and sometimes it's great. You know,

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Speaker 3: I never I never dance like this man, but I'm

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Speaker 3: at burning man and look at me all of a sudden, right,

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Speaker 3: or it can turn bad and we're gonna we're gonna

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Speaker 3: cover all angles.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about some of the bad ones, because

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Speaker 2: there are some famous ones that this happens. You don't

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Speaker 2: want to say a lot, but it's one of those

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Speaker 2: things like a plane crash, where it seems like it

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Speaker 2: will happen all the time because it's just so shocking

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Speaker 2: details of it. Whenever it does happen, it seems like

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Speaker 2: it happens way more frequently. That's just not the case.

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Speaker 2: But when it does happen, like I said, it can

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Speaker 2: be pretty bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, because people can get trampled, people can

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Speaker 3: be squashed by force, like in a crowd rush. Pressure

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Speaker 3: can reach a thousand pounds of force, which is a lot. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that can lead to loss of life, notably, like you said,

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Speaker 3: we're going to mention a handful, but the Astro World

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Speaker 3: Festival in Houston very sadly in twenty twenty one at

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Speaker 3: the Travis Scott performance, ten people lost their lives and

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Speaker 3: many more were injured.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one I hadn't heard of that was

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Speaker 2: pretty bad, quite bad. It happened at the coronation of

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Speaker 2: Zar Nicholas the Second in Moscow in eighteen ninety six. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there was a crowd of half a million people who

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Speaker 2: were all there for the coronation, and they knew that

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Speaker 2: they were giving out free souvenirs. Essentially, I saw half

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Speaker 2: a pound of sausage, bags of nuts, a souvenir cup,

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Speaker 2: and apparently they had enough for everybody, but a rumor

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Speaker 2: spread in the crowd that they didn't have enough for everybody,

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Speaker 2: so the people in the back started pushing. A stampede

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Speaker 2: broke out. In thirteen one hundred people died.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it feels like concerts.

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Speaker 3: In sporting events, it can be dozens of people, which

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Speaker 3: is all incredibly sad, But when people in the order

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Speaker 3: of thousands are dying, yeah, from an event, that's pretty striking.

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Speaker 2: And that really follows the model. It seems like for

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Speaker 2: loss of life in crowd crushes, there's some sort of

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Speaker 2: bottleneck toward the front, and it's wider in back, so

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Speaker 2: people in back start pushing and the people in front

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Speaker 2: can't go forward, so they get crushed. That seems to

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Speaker 2: be like the case. That's what happened in Astro World,

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Speaker 2: That's what happened in Moscow, That's what happened in Dusburg, Germany,

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Speaker 2: at the world's largest techno festival, the Love Parade.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember that.

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Speaker 3: Twenty ten twenty one people died and it was a

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Speaker 3: tunnel in that case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it also happened. I mentioned the Haje and two

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Speaker 2: thousand people. Two thousand people died at the Hajje as

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Speaker 2: part of that annual pilgrim to Mecca that all Muslims

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Speaker 2: are required to do at least once in their lifetime. Well,

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Speaker 2: they have like on the order of one and a

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Speaker 2: half million people, up to two million people every year

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Speaker 2: do this thing. And in twenty fifteen, two thousand people

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Speaker 2: died because there was a bottleneck people push from the back,

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Speaker 2: and that actually broke the previous record of the most

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Speaker 2: people killed in a crowd crush that was also at

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Speaker 2: the Hajj, this time in nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, super super sad. Because of all these tragedies, people

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Speaker 3: have been studying how people move through crowds, crowd dynamics.

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Speaker 3: It's you know, they use a lot of different sciences.

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Speaker 3: Physics definitely is one, and we're going to talk about

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Speaker 3: all these, but also physiology, psychology certainly, and what they're

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Speaker 3: looking at is human behavior, how people behave when they

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Speaker 3: get into crowd because it changes once you have sort

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Speaker 3: of a veil of anonymity going on, and again it

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Speaker 3: can be good or bad. But they use this in

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Speaker 3: all all kinds of modeling, whether it's you know, in

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Speaker 3: city planning or certainly event preparation, disaster management, crowd management,

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Speaker 3: all kinds of people like we'll pay people a lot

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Speaker 3: of money to study and give their findings.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned applying the principles of physics to studying this.

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Speaker 2: I think that started in the fifties. And it's not

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Speaker 2: like tit for tat, but the movement and the formation

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Speaker 2: of crowds resembles it so much that you can basically

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Speaker 2: use physics terms like orbital motion or oscillators to basically

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Speaker 2: describe how people behave in a crowd and how crowds

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Speaker 2: behave themselves. One of the ways of looking at a

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Speaker 2: systems theory and complex adapted systems are what crowds do.

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Speaker 2: It's chaotic at first, but then they start to move

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Speaker 2: together as a whole. Lines of communication develop without speech.

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Speaker 2: It's just kind of like the crowd learns through feedback

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Speaker 2: and it just starts. It becomes a cohesive of whole

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Speaker 2: rather than just a bunch of people together into space.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, certainly fluid dynamics is a factor, and

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Speaker 3: they kind of use some of that terminology as well

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Speaker 3: when talking about crowds, because if you're a fluid, like

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Speaker 3: let's say you're a liquid or even a gas, the

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Speaker 3: particles are really tightly packed, but they're never actually colliding

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Speaker 3: because they have electrons repelling each other. Yeah, we do

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Speaker 3: a similar thing, but it's called what's known as social force.

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Speaker 3: It's that thing when you're in a crowd and you

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Speaker 3: just unconsciously instinctively navigate without like constantly bumping into other people,

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Speaker 3: at least if.

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Speaker 4: You're doing it right right.

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Speaker 3: I've been in crowds where people are a little more unaware,

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Speaker 3: and there may be reasons for that, so I'm not

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Speaker 3: like casting aspersions. But generally speaking, your body is just

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Speaker 3: automatically adjusting because you want that path of least resistance.

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Speaker 3: You don't want to be banging into people all around you.

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Speaker 3: And even in great crowds like a huge excited stadium

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Speaker 3: after a big sports win or after a big energetic

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Speaker 3: concert or something, you still find your way out of

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Speaker 3: there generally, you know, not making contact with other people.

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Speaker 3: Maybe slight you know, bumps here and there, but unless

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Speaker 3: someone really has their head up their butt or they're

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Speaker 3: super drunk, or there may be other you know, some

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Speaker 3: genuine factor. They can't help. They're not just banging right

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Speaker 3: into people constantly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. That made me wonder if it's electrons repelling each

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Speaker 2: other that keeps liquids from bumping into one another. I

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Speaker 2: wonder if the collective group of electrons in our bodies

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Speaker 2: are what makes us inherently makes us inherently avoid it

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Speaker 2: and almostatic sense for that kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: I like that, Eddie.

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Speaker 2: It's like the quantum explanation of swerving.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, little hippie dippy.

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Speaker 2: So there are a couple things that we've figured out

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Speaker 2: about crowds that the way that they behave is again,

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Speaker 2: this is spontaneous. I don't even know if we've said it,

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Speaker 2: so maybe not. Again, it's spontaneous, it's unconscious typically, and

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Speaker 2: it's collective. Right, So we're actually moving cooperatively with other people,

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Speaker 2: whether we realize it or not. We think we're just

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Speaker 2: trying to make it to the exit because we want

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Speaker 2: to get to our car first so we can get

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Speaker 2: the heck out of the parking lot as soon as possible.

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Speaker 2: But we're actually unconsciously moving in conjunction with other people.

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Speaker 2: One of the really great ways that that expresses itself

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Speaker 2: is in lane formation, which is well, it's exactly what

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Speaker 2: it sounds like, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's people kind of gathering and moving in one

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Speaker 3: direction together forming a lane. No one's taking the lead

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Speaker 3: and saying everyone, this is the United States, So we

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Speaker 3: generally walk down the right side of the hallway or

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Speaker 3: the corridor and other people on the left. That is

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Speaker 3: something when I've traveled abroad I had to get used

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Speaker 3: to because I didn't realize the rules of the road

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Speaker 3: typically apply to moving around the world as well. So

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Speaker 3: I I didn't know that until I went over to

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Speaker 3: England for the first time and was bumping into people constantly.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, here in the United States, it's generally right side,

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Speaker 3: left side or I guess it doesn't explain it well,

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Speaker 3: but no, you did you move along the right side

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Speaker 3: of a hallway?

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Speaker 2: Sure, And that's just a difference in the electron spin

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Speaker 2: of people in Europe and the people in the US.

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Speaker 2: Oh Man, I also mentioned orbital motion too, right, So

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Speaker 2: apparently in a crowd people moving in the same direction,

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Speaker 2: or if you're in a crowd, that's just basically in

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Speaker 2: one place. I think they studied the Festival of the

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Speaker 2: Running of the Bulls in Pamplona. To get this information.

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Speaker 2: You basically create you move in a circle in an

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Speaker 2: orbit is what they call it, and you complete this

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Speaker 2: orbit in about eighteen seconds. And when I was reading this,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, that's just not true. And then I went

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Speaker 2: and watched video of this study, and yes, people just

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Speaker 2: move around in a tight circle. Basically, you're moving because

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Speaker 2: other people are moving, but you're ultimately you're keeping your

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Speaker 2: same space this one orbital circle, which is awesome.

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Speaker 3: I mean to be clear, because that sounded slightly confusing.

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Speaker 3: People are not walking in a tight circle. You're just

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Speaker 3: moving your body within a circular space, right, like maybe

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Speaker 3: raising your elbow to scratch your head or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Right, So imagine imagine the person in front of you.

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Speaker 2: Imagine the person in front of you is backing up,

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Speaker 2: so you back up and then you maybe moved to

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Speaker 2: the right, and then they move this way and you

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Speaker 2: kind of come forward to your left, and then you

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Speaker 2: kind of back up a little bit to your left,

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Speaker 2: and then you back up center like that. So you're

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Speaker 2: facing the same way the whole time, but you're just

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Speaker 2: shuffling your feet in the way that you're doing this.

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Speaker 2: You're ultimately creating an orbit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that also applies to just taking

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Speaker 3: up your personal space with general body.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the electrons.

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Speaker 3: So this this works out pretty great, this idea of

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Speaker 3: social force, it seems to work pretty well. And even

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Speaker 3: in big crowds, when it starts to get a little

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Speaker 3: more highly dense is when it's a problem. And this

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Speaker 3: is where you might get triggered. Like I was. And

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Speaker 3: I don't even mind crowds, but when it started talking

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Speaker 3: and getting like denser and denser, I just found myself

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Speaker 3: getting a little you know, my breathing sort of increased.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So at two people per square meter, a crowd moves

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Speaker 3: a little slower because they're still trying to you know,

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Speaker 3: get that distance between you and and your friend next

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Speaker 3: to you. Four people, you're going to start to bump

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Speaker 3: around a little bit. At six people, things get truly difficult.

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Speaker 3: And at ten people per square meter and I measured

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Speaker 3: that out on the floor, that made me panic a

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Speaker 3: little bit. That means individual movement is basically impossible, and

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Speaker 3: the likelihood of, like in a big crowd that's that dense,

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Speaker 3: something bad is likely to happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the point where you can't raise your arms,

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Speaker 2: they're at your side. If a crush starts to have happened,

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Speaker 2: you can't breathe, so they're like, you can die of asphyxiation.

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Speaker 2: There is a very famous tragedy in twenty twenty two

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Speaker 2: in Soul, a Taiwan, tragedy where kids in their twenties,

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Speaker 2: healthy kids in their twenties died of heart attacks because

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Speaker 2: they asphyxiated and their heart stopped because of a crowd crush. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And if you're wondering what this all looks like, we

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Speaker 3: didn't do big max. Should do one big max, but

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Speaker 3: six people per square meter where you know it's not tragic,

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Speaker 3: but movement is difficult. That's about seventeen hundred people packed

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Speaker 3: onto a tennis court.

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Speaker 4: Yep, So that's a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was at six. We're talking ten is

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Speaker 2: when you can really be in trouble. Now, that is

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Speaker 2: not guaranteed that something's going to go wrong. In a

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Speaker 2: Taiwan there were like this, This situation was going on

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Speaker 2: for an hour or so before it turned problematic. So

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Speaker 2: as long as the people in the back are doing

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Speaker 2: good and not pushing, as long as somebody in the

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Speaker 2: center doesn't faint and fall over or trip and fall down.

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Speaker 2: This can work. It's not inherently going to be deadly,

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Speaker 2: but the chances of it becoming dead it's just sitting

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Speaker 2: there balancing on the razor's edge at that point, it's

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Speaker 2: a really dangerous place to be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's that one triggering incident is when it can

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Speaker 3: really go south there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, it's scary.

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Speaker 3: Shall we take a break, Yes, all right, we'll be

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Speaker 3: right back with more crowds.

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Speaker 1: Stop you shut.

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Speaker 4: All right. So we covered partially coverage physics.

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Speaker 3: We should talk a little bit about psychology because crowds

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Speaker 3: have their own distinct psychology around them as well, and

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Speaker 3: people can behave in ways that they don't normally behave

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Speaker 3: in a crowd just because of that psychology. And early

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Speaker 3: on the explanation for that was like, if there's a

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Speaker 3: violent crowd, then it was just full of violent people, right.

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Speaker 3: And there was a French psychologist named Gustave Lebon in

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Speaker 3: eighteen ninety five who wrote the literal book on this,

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Speaker 3: like the first one called the Crowd Colon a Study

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Speaker 3: of the Popular Mind, and it was very influential. But

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Speaker 3: this is one of those that's a little outdated in

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Speaker 3: a lot of ways.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's right in some ways. But his whole thing was, like,

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Speaker 2: you have any crowd together, they're inherently mindless, they form

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Speaker 2: a collective mind, they become capable of anything. They're very suggestible.

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Speaker 2: They're going to kill everybody in their path, right, and

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Speaker 2: like there are crowds that have done that before. Sure,

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Speaker 2: but that's not the inherent I guess trait of crowds.

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Speaker 2: Like crowds are actually the opposite. They're actually way more

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Speaker 2: peaceful and pro social than that. But Lebon essentially set

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Speaker 2: the view of crowds that's still persistent today in a

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Speaker 2: lot of quarters. And he did. Yeah, he just had

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Speaker 2: a huge impact on this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, if you look at the different explanations over the

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Speaker 3: years of like this collective behavior, because collective behavior is

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Speaker 3: definitely happening.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there are a few different theories.

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Speaker 3: One is a contagion theory and that was put forth

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Speaker 3: by Lebon himself, which is that this irrational behaviors that

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Speaker 3: happened in a crowd spreads like a virus. Yeah, that

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Speaker 3: can happen, and it also can't. So I'm sort of

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Speaker 3: fifty to fifty on that one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, like all of this stuff makes sense. It's

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Speaker 2: just not like this is the most salacious rare version

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Speaker 2: of crowds, right. Yeah, you can also make the case

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Speaker 2: like good positive behavior can be contagious in a crowd

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Speaker 2: as well, because, like you said, people behave differently in crowds.

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Speaker 2: That's just a fact.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like that dancing at Burning Man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. There's also convergence theory, which also makes a

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Speaker 2: bit of sense that explains why crowds have a collective mind,

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Speaker 2: and it just basically says that's because crowds are made

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Speaker 2: up of similar people. Like usually there's not a lot

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Speaker 2: of crowd like mindless, say behavior on an elevator, because

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Speaker 2: everybody there didn't come together on the elevator to protest something.

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Speaker 2: But if you have a protest, there's way more potential

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Speaker 2: for collective mind behavior because there's people who are there

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Speaker 2: for the same reason, So they're sharing kind of a

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Speaker 2: wavelength already when they get there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're at that concert together, you're there because

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Speaker 3: you're you want to see Bob Dylan in person, all right,

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Speaker 3: for the same reason.

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Speaker 2: Sure, Or you want to hear David Crosby harangue you.

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Speaker 5: Oh man, he will too, or he would have he did.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Okay, so that's convergence. There's also group mind

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Speaker 2: theory a little on the nose. It's basically saying like,

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Speaker 2: you lose your individual identity and it's replaced as a part,

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Speaker 2: a cog of this larger group's identity. Yeah, yeah again,

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Speaker 2: I guess. Yeah, it's not totally off. Social identity theory

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Speaker 2: seems to be the prevalent, dominant view of I guess

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Speaker 2: kind of d individuation in crowds.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where you just you're acting like everyone else

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Speaker 3: is acting because you just want to fit in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't really put it better than that.

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Speaker 4: So how do you become a crowd member? There are

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Speaker 4: a few key concepts there.

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Speaker 2: First, you have to get training, go to school.

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Speaker 3: Got to go to crowd school, all right, Uh, And

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Speaker 3: the first thing you need in crowd school is a

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Speaker 3: lot of people in a very tight spot.

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Speaker 4: It's called panic school.

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Speaker 3: Feeling right now, by the way, I'm okay, And it's

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Speaker 3: weird because I don't have like, what's it called claustrophobia necessarily.

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Speaker 3: I think it's more for me, just like I can't

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Speaker 3: wait to get out of that crowd because I just

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Speaker 3: want to have a little space.

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Speaker 5: Maybe I do have a little clusterphobiah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it sounds like it, but I think

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Speaker 2: everybody does to a degree.

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Speaker 4: It's just I guess.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I've never you know, I can accept hugs.

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Speaker 3: And I was never one of those kids like under

393
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Speaker 3: the dog pile that was like freaking out or.

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Speaker 4: Anything like that.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I did not like that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well you have a little claustrophobia, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit. I've kind of outgrown it a lot.

398
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Speaker 2: But yeah, if you put me in like a sewer

399
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Speaker 2: culvert or hearing about like a caving accident, I mean

400
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Speaker 2: I'll start Yeah, I can't handle that.

401
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Speaker 4: Well, maybe you have a fear of dying.

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Speaker 2: That could be it.

403
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Speaker 5: That might be what's going on, which is rational.

404
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 4: But what are we talking about.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about the three key concepts that form these

406
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 3: foundations of collected behavior, and they are d oh Man,

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Speaker 3: D individuation, Yeah, emotional contagion, and suggestibility. And that first one,

408
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Speaker 3: D individuation is basically like kind of what you were

409
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Speaker 3: hinting at earlier, is there's this new social identity and

410
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Speaker 3: your individual identity is taking a break.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is a good example of how this

412
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 2: stuff can kind of make sense, but it's also like

413
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Speaker 2: you really just paid attention to the worst part of it.

414
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Speaker 2: And this came from Philip Bombardo. Remember him from the

415
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: Stanford Prison experiment. Oh yeah, that was all about d individuation.

416
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Speaker 2: So yeah, he focused some work on crowds, and essentially

417
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: what he said is that, yeah, you just basically leave

418
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Speaker 2: your own identity at the door. You take on a

419
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Speaker 2: new identity of crowd member, group member, and basically whatever

420
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Speaker 2: the group's up for, e're up for. Two. You feel anonymous,

421
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 2: you feel unidentified. You also feel connected to those other people,

422
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Speaker 2: and so if those other people start, you know, looting

423
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Speaker 2: or something like that, you would probably never loot by yourself, right,

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Speaker 2: But since you're in that group, you've lost your individual

425
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Speaker 2: identity that would prevent you from looting. Now it's like, well, yeah,

426
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Speaker 2: I mean I'm part of this group and we're looting,

427
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Speaker 2: so let's get to it.

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Speaker 3: I think that's fascinating and I think that is so

429
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Speaker 3: true and happens all the time, and we've seen it

430
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Speaker 3: in all across Like I feel like in recent years,

431
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 3: especially with various protests and you know, things that people

432
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Speaker 3: might call riots, things that people might call insurrections where

433
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Speaker 3: people that normally wouldn't behave in a certain way, like, Hey,

434
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Speaker 3: I was going down to the Capitol Building to voice

435
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Speaker 3: my opinion about how this country is being run, and

436
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Speaker 3: next thing you know, I'm beating a cop down with

437
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 3: a flagpole, and that normally I would not do something.

438
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 2: Like that exactly, And that's a great example of that.

439
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 2: On the other side of it, you might never dance

440
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: with your shirt out wearing nothing but a loincloth burning

441
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: me yes, But in a different situation, you could be

442
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 2: having just one of the greatest moments of your life totally.

443
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 2: And that's not just the ecstasy speaking friend, that is

444
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 2: you being a part of a crowd and feeling that

445
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: kind of exhilaration of being part connected to something larger

446
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 2: than yourself. So it's the same thing in a sense.

447
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: You're deindividuated one way or another. It's just how is

448
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 2: it going? Is it going positive? Is it going negative?

449
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: Or is it even neutral?

450
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 4: Yeah?

451
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this is all just very fascinating. The

452
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 3: second one we mentioned was emotional contagion, and that is

453
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 3: just the fact that you know, emotions in a crowd

454
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 3: are heightened anyway if you're there at that concert or

455
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 3: that protest, you're highly emotional, probably for whatever reason you're there,

456
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 3: or if your team just won the big game and

457
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 3: you're leaving in a big crowd, so you're aware of

458
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 3: the people around you. But that like one person, and

459
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 3: you've seen it before in any of those circumstances where

460
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 3: one person again triggers something because they're extra emo, and

461
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, everyone rises to meet that level

462
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 3: of emotion.

463
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing I saw, though, I think it's part

464
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: of social identity theory, is that that depends on the

465
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 2: mood of the group or the norms of the group.

466
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 2: So if it's like a group that is generally saying like,

467
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 2: we're a peaceful protest, somebody can come up and throw

468
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: a Molotov cocktail and everybody else in the group's gonna

469
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 2: look at them like, what the heck are you doing. Yeah,

470
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 2: they will isolate that person, ostracize that person, and continue

471
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 2: on with their peaceful protests. But if the norm of

472
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: the group is like, yeah, we're being like repressed here

473
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: and somebody throws a Molotov cocktail, there's a good chance

474
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: that that crowd will change its norms to include throwing

475
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: molotov cocktails and more people will join in.

476
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you used to hang out in a

477
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 3: moshpit or two back in the day. I'm sure, right, yeah,

478
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 3: here and there, the mashpit. I mean, I think they

479
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 3: could be and they probably have been studied within the

480
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: crowd dynamics because it's sort of just a microcosm. But

481
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: I remember in those days and I wasn't like, oh man,

482
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 3: I can't wait to get in that mash pit, but

483
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 3: if one broke out around me, I would find myself

484
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 3: in it like having a good time, and the same

485
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 3: thing would happen. I was in moshpits where there was

486
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 3: one jerk throwing elbows and everyone's like, get out of here, dude.

487
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 4: And then I've been in others where all of a

488
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 4: sudden that one dude triggered another dude, and then all

489
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 4: of a sudden it got.

490
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 5: A little scary in there. And that's when.

491
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 4: Chuck took a walk.

492
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good idea.

493
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

494
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 2: And then also there's there's often that jerk that's like

495
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 2: not even in the pit. He just pushes people in

496
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: who weren't planning on joining.

497
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, that should be a choice.

498
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 2: That guy needs to soak his head.

499
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

500
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 3: I had a quick story here about the first or

501
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 3: not the first Lola Plusa, the one with the Beastie

502
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 3: Boys and at Lakewood Amphitheater, big outdoor Amphitheater on the lawn,

503
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 3: the mash pit behind us.

504
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 4: I was in this one, but it got so big.

505
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 3: It was about it big was it was about a

506
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 3: third of the size of an amphitheater lawn and it

507
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: was swirling in the circle and people started throwing up

508
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: their their cups and stuff, and there the trash around them,

509
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: and that stuff formed a whirlpool, a tunnel of trash. Wow,

510
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 3: as if a tornado was taking it up.

511
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 5: That's amazing, or at least that's what I saw.

512
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 4: That's you know what I mean.

513
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: That's a world class mosh pit right there.

514
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:31,719
Speaker 4: It was.

515
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like it. And I've been around

516
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 3: a lot of big shows like that, and I've never

517
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: seen anything like that.

518
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 2: That's like that part from American Beauty where the kid

519
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 2: sees the plastic bag caught up in the little whirlwind.

520
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: It's like, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

521
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I used to think that was the best movie

522
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 4: ever hit. I don't think it's aged. Well, not just

523
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 4: not just because it's spacey. The whole thing is kind

524
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 4: of corny to me.

525
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: Now when I think about it, Well, I'm not gonna

526
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: watch it again then. Yeah, okay, there's one more I

527
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 2: guess aspect that you mentioned too, which is suggestibility, and

528
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 2: this is I think another Lebon thing, who, by the way,

529
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 2: as far as I can tell, is not related to

530
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 2: Simon Lebon. H Yeah, but Lebon basically was like they're

531
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 2: de individuated. They are basically capable of anything, and if

532
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: there's like that, you could tell them whatever and they'll

533
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 2: go do it. This definitely, I mean, just from recent

534
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: experience like this can happen, but it requires typically a

535
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: central leader or or organizer that people are looking to,

536
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: a charismatic speaker, somebody who can actually tap into that

537
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: collective mind and push it one direction or another. That

538
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: is possible, but again that is fairly rare when that

539
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: when something like that happens, but it again, it is possible.

540
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: It does happen sometimes.

541
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 4: Well, I mean I don't think we mentioned earlier. Hitler

542
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 4: and Mussolini both studied the works of Lebon.

543
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 2: M Yeah, and I mean like they mobilized it to

544
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: their own ends. They used it to generate nationalism and

545
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: xenophobia and essentially create like their own fascist states. Because

546
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: it does work if you do it right and you

547
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: have a crowd in the right mindset.

548
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 5: That's right, that's nuts, dude, Should we break or keep going?

549
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: I say we.

550
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 4: All right, we can break.

551
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 6: You have my permission, stop you shut.

552
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: So one of the great things Chuck about studying crowds

553
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: is that you you can figure out what makes crowds

554
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: do what, and they have in a lot of ways,

555
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: not just how they behave like physics or what the

556
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: psychology is behind crowds, but like what triggers crowds to say,

557
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: change their mood because remember I said, like depending on

558
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: the norms, like they may or may not behave violently

559
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: or unlawfully, and that can change with the same crowd

560
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: depending on the circumstances. And one of the like a

561
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: good example of that is that if you have been

562
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: if you're a law enforcement officer and you're there and

563
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: you basically your whole squad is like it's a protest,

564
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: So of course they're going to turn violent and they're

565
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 2: going to throw rocks at us and stuff like that.

566
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: Just being primed to believe that actually makes it more

567
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: likely that the crowd will behave that way. It's it's

568
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: not like we have it reversed. So like like you said,

569
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: just the presence of a law enforcement like group or

570
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: force in riot gear makes it more likely that a

571
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: crowd will turn violent.

572
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, they have this new I don't know

573
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 3: how widespread it is yet, but one of the newer

574
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: developments in this kind of quote unquote crowd control is

575
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 3: something called the dialogue team. Yeah, and that's when you

576
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: get your nicest cop I guess, yeah, and make them

577
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: the public facing face of that unit, and they put

578
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: them out in the lead and they communicate their purpose there,

579
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: their presence there, how they'd like things to go, and

580
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: it's and apparently it works a lot better than just

581
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 3: showing up and standing there, beating that billy club into

582
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 3: your hand and staring down at people in all your

583
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: heavy gear. Apparently that has a quite a great calming

584
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 3: effect on crowds and can even see the police presence

585
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: is a little more benevolent and cause the crowd to

586
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 3: maybe self police a little more.

587
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So the chances of the crowd turning ugly

588
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: is way decreased when you have that kind of that,

589
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: like you said, public facing kind of law enforcement, Like

590
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: you still have the riot gear. You may even still

591
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 2: have a line of guys with assault rifles with rubber

592
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: bullets and there's like the m wrap like off in

593
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: the distance, but that's not what you have up against

594
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 2: the crowd. You have friendly officers that are explaining that

595
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: they're there to protect your First Amendment rights but also

596
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: keep you safe. And yeah, like you said, self police

597
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: in getting a crowd to police itself. Yeah, is I mean,

598
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: that's just the pinnacle of crowd control totally. And it

599
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 2: isn't very widespread here, but it's a model that Europe

600
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: as a whole has adopted since the early two thousands

601
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: of the aughts. Yeah, and so it's starting to spread

602
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: over here, but it feels like it's more being that

603
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: it's being handed over from Europe to the academics in

604
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: America who are trying to give it to law enforcement

605
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 2: in America to take and run with.

606
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the key to any you know, regardless of

607
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 3: the dialogue team out in front, the key to any

608
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 3: sort of peaceful situation in a protest and dealing with

609
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: cops do is these cops have to be trained, like

610
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 3: super trained.

611
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 4: Training is the.

612
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 3: Key to every officer interaction that they take. And most

613
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,239
Speaker 3: of these big tragedies that you can point to, and

614
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 3: not just in protests, but just any kind of these

615
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 3: crushing tragedies, Yeah, is the result of untrained officers in

616
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:30,719
Speaker 3: a lot of cases.

617
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sometimes even the people who are in charge of

618
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: all of the police there might not be trained in

619
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: what they're doing. Like the Sheffield tragedy in I think

620
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine. The police were blamed for that, although

621
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: the police initially blamed soccer hooligans and it was like, no,

622
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: the cops who were in charge of this had no

623
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: reason to be in charge of this. They had no

624
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: training whatsoever. Yea, So that is a huge one for sure.

625
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 3: A couple of sociologists came along to do a lot

626
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 3: of the sort of official refutation of Lebon in the

627
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 3: twentieth century, and it was the Italian guy.

628
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 4: You mentioned this guy, Henrico.

629
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: I didn't, did I mention an Italian guy?

630
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 4: I thought you mentioned an Italian guy.

631
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 3: But regardless whether he's showing up for the first time

632
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 3: or the second, Okay, A guy named Enrico Quarantelli He

633
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,439
Speaker 3: looked at a lot of emergency evacuations and studied them,

634
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 3: and he basically came to the conclusion that usually people

635
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: flee from these things, obviously because it's the sensible thing

636
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 3: to do, but it's not necessarily a panicked, irrational group

637
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 3: of people. They do so generally order in an orderly fashion.

638
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that. Let's talk about emergency identity

639
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: because one of the things, one of the ways that

640
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: that crowds kind of create like a different a different

641
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 2: way of thinking is Let's say you have a group

642
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: of people on a subway, and the subway like it's

643
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: running normally. They are just a group of strangers trying

644
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: not to make eye contact with one another, on their

645
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,720
Speaker 2: way home, on their way to work, on their way wherever.

646
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 2: They have no affiliation with one another aside from the

647
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: fact that they're currently sharing space with one another. If

648
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 2: that subway breaks down, those strangers become a group almost

649
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: instantly once they realize, okay, we're stuck. The human tendency

650
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: that recent scholarship has found is to come together as

651
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 2: a group, help one another, start to actually care what

652
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: happens to every other member of the group, trust one another,

653
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: treat one another with respect, and that that happens in

654
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 2: disaster after disaster after disaster, or subway breakdown after subway breakdown.

655
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 2: There was another sociologist I don't have his name, but

656
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: he studied like one hundred and eighty different peacetime disasters

657
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: and basically found, Yeah, there's jerks in every crowd, but

658
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: for the most part, they are the vast majority of

659
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 2: people act pro socially and positively to come together as

660
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 2: a group in the face of a disaster.

661
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was Charles Fritz and I couldn't help but

662
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 3: think of Elaine Venice the second you mentioned the subway stopping.

663
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't remember that one.

664
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 3: Oh it was the great Seinfeld episode where Elaine was

665
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 3: stuck on a out of work subway malfunctioning subway.

666
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 4: It was pretty great.

667
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,919
Speaker 3: I had a great experience in New York years ago,

668
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 3: and I might have told this one before, but where

669
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 3: there was a guy kind of stomping up and down

670
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: the subway platform saying he was going to shove someone

671
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 3: onto the oncoming train, and just instinctively, a group of

672
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 3: twenty New Yorkers and me went and gathered together in

673
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 3: a group with a mother and her baby at the

674
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 3: center of that atom.

675
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 4: Wow, at the nucleus.

676
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 3: And it wasn't no one said all right, everyone, let's

677
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 3: get together here. We all just stood together, got just

678
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 3: wandered closer to one another and probably all making our

679
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 3: way toward that woman and her baby. And before you

680
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 3: know it, there was a big group of us standing

681
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 3: in a circle. And that's the one where I went

682
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 3: and met the cops upstairs and led them to the guy.

683
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 2: Awesome.

684
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 3: I was pretty obvious who it was, but I was like, hey,

685
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 3: he's down here, and boy, New York City's finest.

686
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 4: They acted with intention, that's all I'll all say.

687
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: I see, yeah, so what you just said. That story

688
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 2: undermines a very famous, misguided idea about crowds, the bystander effect,

689
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: which we talked about at great length in our episode

690
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: on Kitty Jenavsi.

691
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 4: That's right.

692
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 2: But one study I saw recently found that they were

693
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 2: studying all sorts of fights that were caught on like

694
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: security cameras or whatever. Uh huh, and I think ninety

695
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 2: percent of these fights at least one person intervened. Most

696
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 2: of the time more than one person intervened, and the

697
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 2: bystander effect says the more people there are, the less

698
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: likely anyone needs to act to help. They found the

699
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 2: opposite was true. The more people there were, the more

700
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 2: people helped intervene in this violent fight. So that whole

701
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 2: idea that people just don't do that is actually untrue.

702
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: It's based on misreporting by a New York Times article.

703
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: That's right, there are there's evidence that there are other

704
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: reasons people might not necessarily not render aid, but say,

705
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: not speak up or share their opinions because they're in

706
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: a group too. Right.

707
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 3: Uh. Yeah, that's sort of like if you're in a

708
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 3: classroom and the teacher asks if anyone has anything else

709
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 3: to say or whatever, or has any questions, and nobody

710
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: says anything, even though they might have questions.

711
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 2: I remember doing that.

712
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 4: Sure it would still do that.

713
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure I would too in a classroom setting,

714
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: but I would I would just assume like I was

715
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: the only one who did get it, or I and

716
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 2: probably a lot of other people were just ready to leave.

717
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 3: Well, in a classroom, I don't think that factors in.

718
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 3: But as an adult, I think you're right on the money.

719
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 3: I've been in situations where it's a oh, I don't know.

720
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 3: If you're in a public meeting for something, or if

721
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: you're on the board of a local garden or whatever and.

722
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 4: Everything, you can get the sense that everyone wants to

723
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 4: go home.

724
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't want to be that person. That's like,

725
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 3: I have another point at the end of it.

726
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 2: Right, Well, there's a difference between asking a question and

727
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 2: liking to hear yourself talk.

728
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:38,479
Speaker 4: Well, very very good point.

729
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's called pluralistic ignorance, where you feel like,

730
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 2: even though your opinions differ, you are making an assumption

731
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 2: about the rest of the group that you that they

732
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 2: feel this way. So you don't want to make waves

733
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 2: when it turns out that most of the group probably

734
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 2: feels the same way you do.

735
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. I did want to follow up with

736
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 3: a stat that you found. Yeah, I want to follow

737
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,439
Speaker 3: up with you your information because when you were talking

738
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: about Fritz, I think this idea that you know, if

739
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 3: you watch the news, you might think every protest leads

740
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 3: to violence, or you know, the summer of violence with

741
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 3: George Floyd and Black Lives Matter and stuff like that,

742
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 3: or pro Palestinian campus protests. There are stats on this stuff,

743
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 3: like there's raw numbers and of the five hundred and

744
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 3: fifty three pro Palestine campus protests between April and April

745
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 3: eighteenth and May third, twenty twenty four, ninety seven percent

746
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 3: were what was classified as overwhelmingly peaceful. And the same

747
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 3: with Black Lives Matter. There were twenty four hundred demonstrations

748
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 3: after the murder of George Floyd, and I think it

749
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 3: was ninety three percent of them remained entirely peaceful. They

750
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 3: were less than two hundred and twenty out of the

751
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 3: twenty four hundred that had any kind of violence whatsoever.

752
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 4: Right, So that's good news.

753
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, that's great news. And I think that

754
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 2: the Black Lives Matter George Floyd protests were one of

755
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 2: the things that really kind of changed a lot of

756
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 2: scholarship or gave a lot of weight to some of

757
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: the emerging scholarship that crowds actually aren't bad necessarily and

758
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: they can be beneficial socially too.

759
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, because they don't.

760
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 3: The news doesn't cover twenty four hundred pieceful protests, right,

761
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: they cover the ones, you know, And I guess I

762
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 3: get it because it's the news, And if it's.

763
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 4: I guess I get it. That's all I'm saying.

764
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to do an episode on how the

765
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: news affects the world and how it has so far,

766
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 2: because I think it's done a lot of damage.

767
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree.

768
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: There's one other thing too we mentioned, like say, the

769
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: presence of police in riot gear can actually trigger violence

770
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: that otherwise might not have taken place in a crowd.

771
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 2: That's not the only thing. If there are weapons of

772
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 2: whoever has the weapons, that can change things. And then

773
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 2: another really big one that cannot be overlooked is the

774
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 2: presence of a lot of people on alcohol. Yeah, that

775
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 2: has caused a lot of riots. It just has Like

776
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 2: you're not going to set a couch on fire in

777
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: the street normally, but if you're drunk and you're part

778
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 2: of a crowd that who's basketball team just lost in

779
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 2: the final four, there's a good chance you're going to

780
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: do something like that. And alcohol fuels a lot of

781
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 2: the problematic, unlawful crowds that turn ugly.

782
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, those the It's a lot of times it's the

783
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 3: winning team and that just it's always very frustrating to

784
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 3: see the news after a city has won a big,

785
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 3: important championship. Yeah, important to the fans, And then there's

786
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 3: a big group of people like I've been among those parties.

787
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 3: I remember in Athens when the Braves won their first

788
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 3: World Series back in the day.

789
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 2: Oh, that was just a great night.

790
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 3: The streets flooded and it was amazing. Yeah, but you know,

791
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 3: we've seen that same thing. All of a sudden, people

792
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 3: are flipping over cop cars.

793
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's setting them on fire, and it's like, yeah,

794
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 2: I'm so happy that I'm going to set this car

795
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: on fire.

796
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

797
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a shame. It's like ruining it for the best,

798
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 3: for the rest of us and the best of us.

799
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 2: I saw that that same kind of thing ruined the

800
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 2: Keen Pumpkin Festival years back.

801
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 3: I think we talked about that, did we. I think

802
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,919
Speaker 3: years ago you definitely mentioned that. Otherwise, I don't see

803
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 3: how it would have known.

804
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't remember it at all, but I'll go

805
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: with your interpretation.

806
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it might have been during our early Pumpkin Chunkin

807
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 3: coverage days.

808
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 2: Didn't we do a whole episode on punkin Chunkin?

809
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:28,919
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, we worked for Discovery Channel.

810
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 2: We sure did. They made it so, yes, you got

811
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 2: anything else?

812
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 3: I got nothing else. I thought that was super interesting. Yeah,

813
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 3: did you pick that one?

814
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank Kimberly.

815
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thanks Kimberly. But it was interesting, Chuck, and

816
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: thanks for doing that, and I'll thank myself from you

817
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,720
Speaker 2: as well. Okay, since I just thank myself on behalf

818
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 2: of Chuck, I think it's time for listener mail.

819
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 4: That's right.

820
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 5: I was thinking about the way and you diverted that

821
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 5: to Kimberly.

822
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 4: Okay, afflicted.

823
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 3: Hey, guys, I was listening to the short stuff about

824
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 3: color psychology, and I got to say I was a

825
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 3: little disappointed there was no mention of drunk tank pink.

826
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 4: Didn't know this. If it's not obvious.

827
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 3: It gets his name from being the go to color

828
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 3: of choice for drunk tanks because of the noticeable calming

829
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 3: effect it has on belligerent people. I was so intrigued

830
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 3: by this that I painted my bathroom drunk tank pink.

831
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 3: Is Hannah. Hannah sent in a picture too. I didn't

832
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 3: ask Hannah why she felt the need to do this,

833
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 3: but she did it.

834
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: Okay.

835
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 3: There's a book called Drunk Tank Pink by author Adam

836
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: Alter that dives into the psychology behind it, and I'd

837
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 3: think you would both find this super interesting.

838
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: Man, I'm sorry we missed that, because that is awesome.

839
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 4: I agree.

840
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 3: And by the way, Hannah got tickets to our show

841
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 3: in Akron, Ohio as a birthday present for her partner Awesome,

842
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 3: who had been listening since he was fifteen years old.

843
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 2: Wow and no seventy two.

844
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, and asked if we could give an

845
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 3: on stage shout out, and Hannah sadly, we don't do

846
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 3: that because we get a lot of requests and it's

847
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 3: no fun sitting around as an audience member for ten

848
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 3: minutes while we read people's names.

849
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 4: So we're gonna do it right here.

850
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 3: Wish a very future happy birthday to Isaac Canise.

851
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 2: Nice Happy birthday, Isaac.

852
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 7: That was quite magnanimous, so Chuck, Yeah, because we usually

853
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 7: don't do it on the episode either, But since Drunk

854
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 7: Tank Pink was such a great email, Hannah, we want

855
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 7: to say happy happy birthday to Isaac and we hope

856
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 7: you both have a great time in Akron.

857
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, we'll see you guys there. Make sure you

858
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: stand up and go drunk Tank Pink in the middle

859
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 2: of the show.

860
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 4: Oh no, don't.

861
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: If you want to be like Hannah, you can send

862
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: us an email too. Say whatever you like in it

863
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: and we will love it. Just send it off to

864
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 2: stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot.

865
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 4: Com Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

866
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 5: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

867
00:45:51,719 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.