1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: Time to go into the Vault. This episode originally published 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: in February, and this is the second part of a 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: pair of episodes that I did with our previous co host, 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: Christian Seger, where we talked about the work of the 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: Dutch American parmatologist Friends Duvall and his book Are We 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: smart enough to Know How smart Animals are? In this episode, 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: we actually speak with friends of All himself. Yeah, and 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: so this is literally the prime reason I realized we 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: needed to rerun these I don't think we've run these 12 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: uh AS Vault episodes previously, and here we have this 13 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: great interview. Uh it just had to see the light 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: of day again. Let's do it. Welcome to Stuff to 15 00:00:52,159 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind from how stup works dot Com. Hey, 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. I'm Joe McCormick 17 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 1: and I'm Christian Seger, and our regular host Robert Lamb 18 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: is not with us today. He's off chilling somewhere else. 19 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: So Christian and I are flying solo. This is going 20 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: to be part two of a two part episode on 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: animal intelligence and cognition, specifically with regard to a book 22 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: that we read by the primatologist and evolutionary cognitition. Would 23 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: that bean the terms? Yeah, I was trying to figure 24 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: out how you would singularize that. Yeah, cosmetologist, not uh 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: Franz Duval who wrote this book. Um, are we smart 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: enough to know how smart animals are? Right? Yeah? So 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: if you if you haven't, uh, we encourage you to 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: go listen to that other episode, Part one will will 29 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: lay the groundwork for this one that we're talking about today, 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: And within that episode, we mainly use Devol's work to 31 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: talk about the history of how science has looked at 32 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: animal intelligence. Uh. And in this episode we find ourselves 33 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: now in the present day, looking at a field that 34 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: Dvol likes to call evolutionary cognition. Right, and so this 35 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: is sort of a synthesized field that has come about 36 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: more recently by combining the best parts of previous ideas 37 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: like the you know, the comparative psychologists or the behaviorists. 38 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: These were the people who emphasized learning and conditioned responses, 39 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: and then the ethologists, the people who specialized in studying 40 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: animals in their natural habitats to see what they're naturally 41 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: inclined behaviors were. Yeah, and so to recap very briefly 42 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: from the last episode, Uh, he compares the wall between 43 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: studies of behaviorism and studies of ethology and even now 44 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 1: going into evolutionary cognition as similar to ideology, and specifically 45 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: he compares it to the ideology between science and creationism. Wow. 46 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: So that's saying that there's like a pretty pretty hard 47 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: stop in between them. It's not like it's easy to 48 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: argue from one position to the other. Yeah. In fact, 49 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: I don't believe that he came up with these categories, 50 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: but this is within the book that there are three 51 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: types of players within this argument, okay about animal cognition. Yeah, 52 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: And he refers to the first as slayers. And slayers 53 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: in this case are the people who felt empowered by 54 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: the human centric idea that we are the center of 55 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: the cosmos and how could animals possibly be intelligent? Who 56 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: insist on human uniqueness and I want to talk more 57 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: about this in a minute. Yeah. The other two are skeptics, 58 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: and the third group is proponents. So the proponents obviously 59 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: would be the people who are in favor of the 60 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: idea of animal cognition, saying, yeah, animals are thinking cognition 61 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: is an idea that makes sense with them. And the 62 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: skeptics would be the ones who are uh skeptical. They're 63 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: reserving judgment. They're saying, I'm not sure yet, give me 64 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: more research. How about you do a study showing me X, 65 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: Y and Z that kind of thing. And Duvall and 66 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: I think most evolutionary cognitionists uh that they would say 67 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: the layers are mostly gone nowadays, but the skeptics and 68 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: the proponents remain. And Daval says he really appreciates having 69 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: the skeptics around because it makes for better research. He 70 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: himself is a proponent. He says, yeah, I think we 71 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: can find clear evidence of animal cognition, animal thinking, and 72 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: strong animal intelligence. But it's good to have skeptics forcing 73 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: us to be honest and trying to keep us on 74 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: our toes. But evolutionary cognition is essentially a blend of 75 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: these two schools, right, yeah, of behaviorism in ethology or 76 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: comparative psychology and ethology. And he sees himself actually as 77 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: being part of what he calls the third generation of 78 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: evolutionary cognition scientists. Yeah, so he says that there are 79 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: two generations before him. He's sort of, you know, lucky 80 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: that he he saw somewhat of this this ideological battle 81 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: play out the wall, but that it's mostly come down, uh, 82 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: and that people are working together now. So another one 83 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: of the really interesting ideas in this book is uh, 84 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: the way I've say maybe it's one of the central 85 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: claims of the book. One of the central things that 86 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: Devol is driving at is against claims of human uniqueness 87 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: um and devolve. For example, one form of this he 88 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: uses this term, which is gonna sound inflammatory to some people. 89 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: He uses the term neo creationism, which he says it's 90 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: different than intelligent design, which Devol just basically considers regular 91 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: creationism under a scientific disguise. But so if if you're 92 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: not familiar, creationism is just opposition to historical science, to evolution, 93 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: to geology and all that stuff. It's the idea that 94 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: the Earth was created you know, six thousand years ago 95 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: or ten thousand years ago, or actually I guess there 96 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: are now also Old Earth creationists who think that the 97 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: Earth is uh, you know, billions of years old, but 98 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: that humans were created in some recent time frame. I 99 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: always thought it was only a hundred years old. I mean, 100 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: were you there? No, I was there a hundred years ago. 101 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: It was I was a different life, right, I was 102 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: actually Charles Darwin. Oh you were weird. Charles Darwin was 103 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: not here one years ago. But it's a little a 104 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: little known fact that Charles Darwin actually faked his own 105 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: death and was me, I don't know where you're going 106 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: with this, but it's good. I don't know anything, okay, um, 107 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: but yeah, So what does he mean by neo creationism, Well, 108 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: this is within this mindset that he's attacking of human uniqueness. 109 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: So a neo creationist, according to Duval, would probably nominally 110 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: accept evolution as the biological mechanism for creating all life, 111 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: including humans, including human bodies, but implicitly, sort of under 112 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: the table, it rejects evolution as the mechanism for creating 113 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: human minds. In other words, it's this implicit kind of 114 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: hidden belief. They wouldn't say this out loud, but they 115 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: act as if they believe that evolution stops at the 116 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: human head, you know, So they would say like, well, 117 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: you know, of course evolution has created all life on earth, 118 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: but you know, we will just never see that animals 119 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: have the kinds of mental capacities that humans do, They're 120 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: in a totally different category. You know. Here a chimpanzee 121 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: could never hope to come close to the mind of 122 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: a human. One example gives in his book is the 123 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: primatologist Mark Howser, who apparently at some point said, there's 124 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: probably more difference between the human and chimp cognition than 125 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: than between chimp and beetle cognition. Interesting and for d 126 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: of all, that is a ridiculous statement. Yeah, so you 127 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: know this is unrelated. But you know what this makes 128 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: me think of combining creationism with neo creationism. When I 129 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,559 Speaker 1: was in Sunday school back in the day, I once 130 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: asked a question, will my pets go to heaven? Will 131 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: they be in heaven with me? There's some different theological 132 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: viewpoints on this, and I was I was heavily reprimanded 133 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: that of course they would not. Why why would animals 134 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: go to heaven? They are not uh and is intelligent. 135 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: They don't have souls like we do. So the Descartes 136 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: point of view, really the animals are automo. I didn't 137 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: know it then. I was probably like, I don't know, 138 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: six years old or something, and I was traumatized by 139 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: the whole idea that like my the pets that I 140 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: loved were somehow less than me and this, and therefore 141 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: did not deserve to live for eternity. Uh, I don't know. 142 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: Maybe that was the beginning of the end for me 143 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: when it came to just being active and organized religion. Well, 144 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: there are different theological viewpoints on this this and I 145 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: think the the I don't know, the insoulment of animals 146 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: or whatever you would call it. There there there are 147 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: some things that maybe we should do an episode on 148 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: that sometimes would be kind of caunimal in soulment theology, 149 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: it's sort of tangentially related. I'm putting us on a 150 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: little bit of a diversion, but but it's sort of 151 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: the same idea, right. Well, whether you're talking about the 152 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: religious mindset or even the mindset of many philosophers and 153 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: scientists who are operating supposedly under secular principles, there is 154 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: still this strong tendency to say, no, no no, no, humans 155 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: are unique. There's nothing like us. We are totally different, 156 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: totally totally different, and nothing else comes close. This is 157 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: another one of these ideas that I think Daval is 158 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 1: coming with a sword in both hands at and so 159 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: he actually in the book calls for a moratorium on 160 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: human uniqueness claims, at least for a few decades, given 161 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: how miserably these claims, he says, have performed in the past. 162 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: So what does he mean by that, Well, he discusses 163 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: lots of examples of intellectual traits that over the years 164 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: have been proposed as completely unique to humans. Examples would 165 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: be all kinds of things, social organization, theory of mind. 166 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: Theory of mind is the idea that you can take 167 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: the perspective mentally of another person. So when I imagine 168 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: what Christian could be thinking right now, this theory of mind, 169 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: and this heavily plays into what Dvoll and others define 170 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: as sort of the pillars of morality. Right, oh, yeah, 171 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: this is one of those pillars will come to Yeah, yeah, 172 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: they connects to the idea of empathy, which is perspective taking, 173 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: putting yourself in somebody else's mindset or their position. But 174 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: then another one. Only humans can do mental time travel. 175 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: Only they can episodically recall the past or think about 176 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: the future. Only humans can recognize themselves in a mirror. 177 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: Only humans can display moral behavior, and and treat others 178 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: with fairness and mercy. And in each case, observation of 179 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: animal behavior followed by controlled experiments has really started to undermine, 180 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: and I would say, in some cases completely demolish, the 181 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: idea that these traits are totally unique to humans and 182 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: not found in any other animal. Yeah. One of the 183 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: examples he gives in the book, which I I slightly 184 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: referenced in our previous episode, was the idea that animals 185 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: couldn't possibly say goodbye to one another, And yet he 186 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: is observed in experimental conditions the chimpanzees, in fact do 187 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: go around and say goodbye to one another in their 188 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: own way from within their social group, but where they 189 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: know when they know they're leaving the like compound that 190 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: they're in. Yeah, and we can talk about a few 191 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: more examples of of these different types of animal intelligence. 192 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: But I do want to come back and say, I 193 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: don't get the sense in the book that he said 194 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: he totally rejects the possibility that humans are unique in 195 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: any way. For example, the one thing he does seem 196 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: to suggest might be unique about humans that we don't 197 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: really know for sure yet might be unique is language. 198 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: Language might be the magic well of humanity, Like you know, 199 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: many other animals have peaks of specialization that are unique 200 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: to them. Maybe the one thing that might set us 201 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: apart is our flexible use of syntax, And you know, 202 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: flexible syntax that symbolic and communicates all different kinds of 203 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: things that we don't really see anything like this in 204 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: other animals. There are signals and calls and basic communications, 205 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 1: but nothing that we've detected yet. That's like human language. 206 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: That's a whole another episode that could be something that 207 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: we could do as well. But yeah, the the definition 208 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: of language in human communication when you then apply it 209 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: to various animals, there are certain ground rules essentially that 210 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: they have yet to show us that they've achieved. But 211 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: I think we should learn from all of these other 212 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: examples of things. We used to say we're definitely unique 213 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: to humans, and then we found out maybe not so much. 214 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: We should be cautious about saying this about language. We 215 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: might find out differently. Yeah, I agree, And and the 216 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: other thing I would say here too is that you 217 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: know Devol would say, I think I don't want to 218 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: put words in his mouth, but would probably say, yes, 219 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: humans are unique, but so are every other species. That's 220 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: sort of right, the point of his approach to the discipline. Right, 221 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: it's almost like, why would you say non human animals 222 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: and saying uh instead of saying non octopus animals? Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, 223 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: that like, each species brings its own unique umveld yeah, 224 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: umvelt the context to the situation, and therefore we have 225 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: something different to learn from all of them. That's what 226 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: he refers to as the magic. Well. Yeah, so there's 227 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: one quote I want to read from the book that 228 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: I think sort of encapsulates the thinking behind this big idea. 229 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: In the book of Going Against Human Uniqueness, claims the 230 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: idea that humans are you know, elite or a gap 231 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: above all other animals and uh. And the section goes 232 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: like this quote, if cognitions basic features derived from gradual 233 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: descent with modification, So he's saying, if we evolved our brains, 234 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: the notions of leaps, bounds, and sparks are out of order. 235 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: Instead of a gap, we face a gently sloping beach 236 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: created by the steady pounding of millions of waves. Even 237 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: if human intellect is higher up on the beach, it 238 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: was shaped by the same forces battering the same shore. 239 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,599 Speaker 1: I found that passage both beautiful and I think I 240 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: I very much agree with it. I mean, it may 241 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: be true that we're much higher up on the shore. 242 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: I guess it's up for debate how much higher along 243 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: the shore we're on, but it's not the case that 244 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: we're on a different land mass, right you know? Yeah, yeah, 245 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: I agree. Okay, let's take a quick break and when 246 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: we get back, we're gonna look at some examples of 247 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: these animals using intelligence and cognition. Okay, so we're back, 248 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: So what are some really good examples. We already talked 249 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: about the combination of mental time travel and chimpanzees having 250 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: the ability to say goodbye, But what else? What else 251 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: have we seen? Well? I mean, so mental time travel 252 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: is something that you tend to assume is only a 253 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: human trait, right uh. It you think of animals as 254 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: existing in terms of what's in front of them, what's 255 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: going on right now? What are my needs right now? 256 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: And a dog can beg for a treat in anticipation 257 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: of a treat, So that is some future oriented behavior, 258 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: but it's begging because it's hungry now right to a 259 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: dog plan for something it wanted to do tomorrow. That's 260 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: the question. Can can dogs think about the future in 261 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: a distant way and make plans that are not related 262 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: to their current needs, not just dogs, obviously, any animals, 263 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: And can they remember episodes from their past that are 264 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: not currently relevant to what's going on to them. This 265 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: is completely anecdotal, and I don't know whether or not 266 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: it backs up anything. But here's what I think of 267 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: when you say that one of my dogs is a 268 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: rescue and we had a little bit of difficulty potty 269 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: training her, getting her to go outside, because in her 270 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: you know, whatever situation she was in before we had her, 271 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: she was clearly going to the bathroom, either on concrete 272 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: or indoors um. And so, uh, it's interesting when I 273 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: let her outside and I you know, she's she's gotten 274 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: to the point now or she knows going outside means 275 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: going to the bathroom. Get my business sense so that 276 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: when I'm inside, I don't have to worry about that, right. 277 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: But I see her sometimes, especially at night, right before 278 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: we go to bed, she knows she's going to be 279 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: in the house for an extended period of time. I 280 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: see what I think. What I think is her making 281 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: a choice and saying, do I really need to go 282 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: to the bathroom that bad? Right? Now or do I 283 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: want to just stay inside and I'll deal with it tomorrow. Yeah, 284 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. Is that I feel like I see 285 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: Charlie doing that same thing. Now that may just be 286 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: me the dog on or projecting yea, um, but yeah, 287 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: I see like sometimes I feel like he's working out 288 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: the pros and cons of future behavior. Yeah, exactly right. 289 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: She's like, do I want to be inside and warm 290 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: right now and in my bed or do I want 291 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: to go outside and and you know, walk around in 292 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: the dark for five minutes and go to the bathroom? 293 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: Do I have to go that bad? Now? That's what 294 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: it seems like to me. Who knows what's actually going 295 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: on inside your head? Now, maybe you could actually come 296 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: up with some kind of test condition to try to 297 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: tug it these variables and see if you could isolate 298 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: it is possible. I don't know. This is what a 299 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: lot of these scientists do, you know, evolutionary uh, people 300 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: working in evolutionary cognition whatever the title for that is, UM. 301 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: They you know, they have to come up with experiments 302 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: to try to isolate these situations and see what can 303 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 1: what can we bring out, what can we tug on? Uh? 304 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: And so one interesting example. They get cited in the book. 305 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: There are tons of examples, and you know, we we 306 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: can't cover everything in the book, right we also we 307 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: want to read the book. Yeah, and in fact, there's 308 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: so many examples in them there's no way that we 309 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: could do it justice without just reading the book out loud, 310 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: do you right? But here's one really interesting one dealing 311 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: with episodic memory and animals. So dev all sites research 312 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: by people NICKI Clayton and Anthony Dickinson doing experiments with 313 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: western scrub jays. These are birds, Okay, now, Robert and 314 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: I actually in the past, I've already done an episode 315 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: on bird intelligence, Corvid's in particular. Actually, many birds, but 316 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: especially birds like corvids and satasta forms have displayed some 317 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: very very interesting apparent higher order intelligence. Yeah. I thought 318 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: of you guys as I was reading the book, because 319 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: he talks about, uh, that example with I want to 320 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: say it was crows where they would put masks on 321 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: various people to see if the crows would recognize the 322 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: masks rather than the actual human face. Yeah, yeah, I 323 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: don't know if that was crows. There's definitely some kind 324 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: of corvid So members of the Corvid family um a 325 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: family or group members of the Corvid group of animals, 326 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: including like crows, ravens, magpies, jay's um the these animals 327 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: are they often display very strikingly intelligent behavior, stuff that 328 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: we would not expect at all. And I want to 329 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: talk more about one with regard to tool use, for example. 330 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: But yeah, so scrub jays. There seems to be evidence 331 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: based on this research that they are able to remember 332 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: what items they have put where and at what time. 333 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: So not just you can imagine instinctual behavior just leading 334 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: a jay to hide a piece of food somewhere and 335 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: then come back to it later, but can they make 336 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: decisions based on how long that piece of food has 337 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: been there and what type of piece of food it was. 338 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: This this study does seem to indicate that might possibly 339 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: be happening. So they got to hide different food items, 340 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: peanuts and waxworms. The jay's love waxworms. The waxworms are 341 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: much preferred to the peanuts. So four hours after hiding 342 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: this stuff, they went back to find the food and 343 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: they look for the worms first. That makes sense. They 344 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: like their they like this food better, so the worms 345 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: probably go bad quicker than peanuts too. What do you 346 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: know this is actually what the study plays on. So 347 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: four hours after hiding, they go back for the worms first, 348 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: but five days later, if they get to go back 349 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: and look for these pieces of food they hid, they 350 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: look for the nuts first, presumably in the understanding that 351 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: worms spoil over the course of several days. Now, there 352 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: could be other stuff going on that, because you know, 353 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: it's not total proof, but that's a very interesting result. 354 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: That's crazy the case. And uh and they determined them 355 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: not even like good enough at that. I go into 356 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: the fridge and my bread's got mold on it. Oh yeah, yeah, 357 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: I have to make it. I bargained with myself whether 358 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: or not it's right. I can't remember when we ordered 359 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: this Chinese food, right, yeah, exactly. But these corvids, man, 360 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: they've got a leg up on us. But so, another 361 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: thing that the Devil reports is that apparently odor was 362 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: not a factor in this. They didn't just sniff it 363 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: out because the food had actually been removed. They're looking 364 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: where they remembered putting the nuts. Uh So, I don't know. 365 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. And there are plenty of other studies 366 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: he talks about with different types of mental apparent mental 367 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: time travel going on in animals. One of the examples 368 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: that Devol talks about in his book is the idea 369 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: of a of a primate taking a bunch of straw 370 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: from its in door enclosure to the outside at a 371 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: time when it didn't have to be outside. It was 372 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: planning ahead of time. The straw can keep it warm, 373 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: it can make a little straw nest outside, but it 374 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: wasn't it didn't need it at that moment. It's the 375 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: equivalent of like knowing that you would need to be 376 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,479 Speaker 1: in the bedroom, you know, in the future tomorrow or 377 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: something like that, and taking a blanket in there and 378 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: leaving it there for when you come back. And if 379 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, I think it should be noted that 380 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: this primate had a baby, didn't it, And that was 381 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: part of it. Yeah, And so it was planning ahead 382 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: of time, not just for itself but for it's young. Yeah. 383 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: So that's just a couple of interesting examples of mental 384 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: time travel. Their tons more sided in the book, Um 385 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: and that that are evidence of both episodic memory and 386 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: animals and animal remembering what happened where and at what 387 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: time in the past, and animals planning for the future 388 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: in some kind of interesting or complex way. Another obvious 389 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: one that people you to say, you know what what 390 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: is man? Man is the tool using animal animals that no, no, 391 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: doctors as did not have that much respect for man. 392 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: Man is a brute? What did he say? Dr z 393 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: is or is exactly what's going through my head? Right? Um? 394 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: So yeah. So another one would be tool use. So 395 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: it used to be assumed that, well, one thing that's 396 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: really unique about humans is that they make tools. This 397 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: is just this is exploded now. Well, just this episode 398 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: episode I pointed out that we've got crabs that use 399 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: an m andies as tools. We have a whole episode 400 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, yeah, so it's crazy. Like this is 401 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: one of those where I don't think it's debatable. It's 402 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: not like some people might argue with the mental time 403 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: travel results and say I don't know about these that 404 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: you might be interpreting them wrong. Okay maybe, Uh not 405 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: so with tool use, I mean, animals obviously used tools. 406 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: Chimpanzees use stones to crack nuts to get into nuts 407 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: they couldn't otherwise use. Uh. Sometimes they show very complex 408 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: behaviors with regard to how they gather these stones and nuts. 409 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,719 Speaker 1: Like there's one anecdote in the book about a chimpanzee 410 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: in the wild. I believe it was either chimpanzee or binobo, 411 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: but I think it was a chimpanzee who was carrying 412 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: a large stone across a great distance and like routed, 413 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: went on a route to pick up some nuts on 414 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: the way while carrying the stone to the place where 415 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: the big flat stone was where you could pound the 416 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: nuts with the stone she was carrying. I mean, that 417 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 1: just sounds like obvious uh tool used to me. Yeah, 418 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: he has a really good example of this in the book. 419 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: Gibbons were apparently originally thought of as being unintelligent because 420 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,719 Speaker 1: they wouldn't use tools like sticks when they were placed 421 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: on the floor. Now, this is where the velt the 422 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: context of a gibbons life comes into play. Right, We'll 423 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: get Ben's hands are different from other primates that have 424 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: really long fingers because they swing from branches and other objects. 425 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: It's called brackyation. They they're they're not they're not manipulators 426 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: to the same extent that like chimpanzees and humans are 427 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: there their swingers. Yeah, exactly. So what they found was 428 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: sure if you put the sticks on the ground, they 429 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: won't pick them up because their hands aren't made to 430 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: pick things up off the ground, but if you suspend 431 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: the sticks, they will easily grab them and use them. 432 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: So it's just a matter of knowing about the species 433 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: before you start conducting these experiments. Yeah, it's the m 434 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: belt again. It's the it's the idea that if you 435 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: don't understand the animal, you're very likely missing something crucial 436 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: when you're testing it's intelligence. Likewise, they did the same 437 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: thing with elephants. They put sticks on the ground when 438 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 1: they wanted to see if elephants would use these sticks. 439 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: It turned out the elephants wouldn't use sticks as tools 440 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: because they pick things up with their trunk and when 441 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: they're picking up these sticks and sticks are big enough 442 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,959 Speaker 1: that they're blocking their nasal passages. So of course they 443 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to use that because their nasal passage is 444 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: hugely important to them and surviving in the context that 445 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: they live in. Uh. There's another really interesting thing about 446 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: corvids again in tool use. I mean, Robert and I 447 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: talked about this in our episode about bird intelligence, but 448 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: corvids have been seen not just to use tools, so crows, 449 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, corvids, they will not just get a hook 450 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: and use it use the hook to retrieve a piece 451 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: of meat in a bucket out of a tube. But 452 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: they will do that, but they'll also make a hook. 453 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: So they take a straight piece of wire and bend 454 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: the end of it into a hook shape. Which that 455 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: that's a type of meta tool use. That's a metacognition 456 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: of understanding what type of tool you need to use 457 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: and then building the tool. Now, unlike imagining this horror 458 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: movie of corvids using hooks to kill people, like like 459 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: maybe that's what what is it, bird demic? Maybe that's 460 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: birdmic or something like that. But but like you remember 461 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: that like the old like urban myth, I guess it 462 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: is the hook. That's like often used as like a 463 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: story to begin horror stories with the idea that like 464 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: there's a prisoner on the loose and you got a 465 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: hook for a hand. And like the couples like making 466 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: out in a car or something, they hear this on 467 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: the radio and the mail goes out looking to see 468 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: about a noise, and then when the female exits the car, 469 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: all she sees as a hook hanging like scraping against 470 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: the top of the car, hanging over the car. Right, 471 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: I think you may more of it the whole time, Frankenstein, 472 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: that together from some parts of different thing. But my version, 473 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: my version is going to be that it was actually 474 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: birds the whole time. There was a cord hook. Yeah, well, 475 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: I mean to me, that is very interesting type of intelligence. 476 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: I think that was Betty the crow who did that, 477 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: Betty the crow bend in the hooks. But another interesting 478 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: one is the picture experiments. You remember about these where 479 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: there would be like a picture of water and a 480 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: piece of food floating in it. Oh. Yeah. Do animals 481 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: understand that they can displace water by dropping stones into 482 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 1: the water to float the food up to where they 483 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 1: can reach it. Uh, And so there have been some 484 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: experiments where crows did show this they could displace water. 485 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: But Devol does add a little caveat to that. He says, 486 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: you know, they had some kinds of pre training and 487 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: like the tools were right there available to them. He's 488 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: even more proud of chimpanzees in water displacement tasks where 489 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: there's something floating that they need to get in a 490 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: narrow container and they add water to the container to 491 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: float it up to where they can reach it. He 492 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 1: even mentions that one female chimpanzee when uh, that he 493 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: was working with when trying to do this this picture experiment, 494 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: tried to pee into the tube. Well, you know, I 495 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: guess whatever works works. Uh. You know. The other thing 496 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: about elephants is that people scientists at first thought that 497 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: they couldn't recognize themselves and mirrors. And you know why 498 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: because they're giving them a little teeny tiny human handheld 499 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: mirrors to try to recognize themselves in uh, and so 500 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: the elephants could like basically all they would see, if 501 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: they could even see into it at all, was like 502 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: their leg right, like the entire side of their leg. 503 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: So scientists thought, well, clearly they can't recognize themselves. Then then, actually, 504 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 1: one of I think is one of Duval's students came 505 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: up with this idea. He put like, I think they're 506 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: eight foot by eight foot mirrors in a an enclosure 507 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: with an elephant. Bigger mirrors, Yeah, bigger mirrors for bigger animals. 508 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: Duh and bingo. The elephants like demonstrated the ability to 509 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: recognize themselves. This is yet another one of these things 510 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: that cited in the book as an example of something 511 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: people used to say, only humans can, you know, have 512 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: self awareness. They can recognize themselves and mirrors. Now there 513 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: are more studies seeming to show and some of the results, 514 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: again you might question them. You might say, I'm not 515 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: sure what's really going on here. That's fair to question them. 516 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: But there are plenty of results appearing to show animals 517 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: recognize themselves in mirrors. Now that's limited to a smaller 518 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: subset of animals, but like it's only some of the 519 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: great apes and maybe the magpie Eurasian magpie um. But 520 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: but they are very interesting. It's like where you will 521 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: put a mark on a place on the animal where 522 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,719 Speaker 1: the animal can't see it themselves, and then let them 523 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: look at themselves in the mirror. Do they do they 524 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: try to investigate this mark or are they just uninterested? 525 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: Do they get that's them they're looking at in the mirror. 526 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: And there's actually a much simpler version of this experiment. 527 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: It's not even an experiment, it's just something people observed about, 528 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: for example, chimpanzees and elements in the presence of mirrors, 529 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: is they look at their mouths. They like open their 530 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: mouths and look inside it in the mirror. I mean 531 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:47,959 Speaker 1: that that's almost like you don't even have to do 532 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: the experiment. You can tell that they they know that 533 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: the mirror is giving them visual access to something they 534 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: could never see otherwise. And in fact, I haven't read 535 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: this study, but I believe leave Duval won an egg 536 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: Nobel Prize for a study like this. Yeah, he does 537 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: involve chimpanzees looking at their own behinds with a mirror. Well, 538 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: he did talk about chimpanzees looking at their own behinds 539 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: in mirrors, But I think the study was actually about 540 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: chimpanzees recognizing one another or some type of I think 541 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: it was chimpanzees, but it was some type of primate 542 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: could recognize one another from their butts. Yeah, okay, So anyways, 543 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: as many of you out there, no, we cover the 544 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: ig Nobels every year and there's a you know, usually 545 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: a good dozen or so funny but illuminating studies that 546 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: are represented there, and this was one of them. From 547 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: is when I think he got the award. Yeah. Other 548 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: big things he talks about in the book that that 549 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: maybe we won't even address now, but their ideas about 550 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: theory of mind can animals um can animals take the 551 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: perspective of another animal, and there's tons of interesting research 552 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: on that. The answer seems to me, I'm fairly convinced 553 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: many animals. Yes, they can. They can take the perspective 554 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: of another. They can imagine what somebody else is thinking, 555 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: understand what they see. Uh, social organization. There's all kinds 556 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: of stuff about primate hierarchies, things about moral behavior. This 557 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,239 Speaker 1: is a big one. Yeah. Actually, why don't we take 558 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about 559 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: examples of animal morality. Okay, we're back. So this is 560 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: actually a lot of the case studies that we presented before. 561 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:40,239 Speaker 1: We're from other researchers. Devolves main area is looking at 562 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: animal morality, like animal empathy. Yeah, and so his own 563 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: work looks at this a lot with chimpanzees, and for instance, 564 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: his work looks at how they reconcile with one another 565 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: after conflict. Apparently bonobo's actually value their relationships with one 566 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: another and they see reconciliation as something that they need 567 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: to do to maintain those relationships, he defines, and we 568 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: we hinted at this at the beginning of the episode. 569 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: Actually we should just mention he has a really good 570 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: in succinct ted talk about this. You can check out 571 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,239 Speaker 1: if you want. Yeah, it's wonderful. Um, but he he 572 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: basically looks at the essential pillars of morality as they 573 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: stand with us as human beings. Right, and he defines it. Uh, 574 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: there's a drawing of literally creek creek pillars. One is 575 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: reciprocity and fairness and the other is empathy and compassion. Right, 576 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: And so he's not saying that all of what morality 577 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: is is defined by these two pillars, but I think 578 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: he's saying that these two pillars are essential. It's building blocks. 579 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: So fairness and compassion or reciprocity and empathy, he used 580 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: them sort of interchangeably. Um, they're not all of what 581 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: morality is. There's more to morality, but they're the necessary 582 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: components of a morality. You can't have a morality without them. 583 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 1: So an example that he uses is he says that 584 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: they showed chimps that even if one chimp wasn't hungry 585 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: but another one was hungry, they would work together to 586 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: help each other get the food. Yeah, this is a 587 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: classic the rope pulling in tandem tests exactly. Yeah, And basically, 588 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: like he shows a video of this that like the 589 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: one chimp that isn't that hungry, we'll kind of stop 590 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: halfway through, and the hungry chimp will pat it on 591 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: the back, kind of getting its attention. But we should 592 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: describe the test a little bit. So there's two chimps 593 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: behind bars prisoners. Yeah uh, And there they have access 594 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: to ropes, and these ropes are attached to a box 595 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: that is too heavy for one chimp to pull by themselves. 596 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: But two chimps together can move the box. And the 597 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: box has some food sitting on it, so obviously they 598 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: want to get it closer to the bars so they 599 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: can get the food. Now, if they work together, they 600 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: can they can get the box there. And if they're 601 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: both hungry, there's no problem here. They'll cooperate, they'll get 602 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: the thing there, and they'll both take their food from 603 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: the box. But as you were saying, what if one 604 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: of the chimps isn't hungry, what if it just eight 605 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: to its fill, will it still help? The answer is 606 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily naturally, but if the other chimp sort 607 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: of encourages it to help, it will. Yeah, pats it 608 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: on the back and basically says, hey, give me a 609 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: hand here, it'll help pull pull the box forward. And 610 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: even in the example, the hungry chimp eats all of 611 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,919 Speaker 1: the food. Yeah, I think the I think the full 612 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: chimp took like one little piece. Yeah. So in these examples, 613 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: Devol defines empathy as having two channels. There's the body channel, 614 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 1: and that's where we or animals maybe adopt the body 615 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: language of another person's emotions. And he says, this is 616 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: why we keep mammals in our homes, right, this is 617 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: why we love cats and dogs as pets because they 618 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: have this kind of empathy. Right, if you're happy your doggie, 619 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but my dog gets you 620 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: know what looks like a smile on his face, will 621 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: start panting and jumping around on something like that. Right. 622 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: Yawn contagion is a really good example of this, like 623 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: my yawn, Joe, my yawn, or me even saying yawning, 624 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 1: or like we actually did a whole episode about yawning 625 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: and dogs on our other show, Brain Stuff. I think 626 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: they do. I feel like Charlie catches my yawns. Yeah, 627 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: I think it's a totally possible. Dogs yawn for a 628 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: lot of reasons. So not just contagion, but yeah, um, 629 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: so that's an example that we, you know, pick up 630 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: on visual cues from other human beings, but also animals 631 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: pick them up from us or other animals as well, 632 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 1: and that's part of their empathy. The second channel is 633 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: the cognitive channel, and this is where you can take 634 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: the perspective of somebody else, right, you imagine what it's 635 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 1: like to be them. So there's another study that he 636 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: did on altruism with chimpanzees, and basically the question they're 637 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: getting at here was do these chips care about the 638 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: welfare of other chimpanzees. Well, they go out of their 639 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: way to and not all that far out of their way. 640 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: Well they do something to make sure another chimpanzee gets 641 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: a piece of food if it has no impact on them. Yeah. 642 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,919 Speaker 1: The way that they did this was they they put 643 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: tokens in the cage with the chimpanzees, and I think 644 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: like red red token is the selfish token and a 645 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: green token is the pro social token. Right, So if 646 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: you give the caretaker a red token, you get a 647 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: piece of food for yourself. If you give them a 648 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: green token, you get a piece of food and another 649 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: chimp gets a piece of food. Exactly either way you 650 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,720 Speaker 1: get the food. But if you do the green token, 651 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: everybody gets food. They found that the chimps choose the 652 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: pro social token more often unless there's a situation between 653 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: them that involves reciprocity. If there's like, if they they 654 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: have some sort of situation they've got to be a 655 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 1: fight earlier or something like that, then they'll they'll choose 656 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,720 Speaker 1: the selfish tokens. This is pretty interesting. Uh. They also 657 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: conducted a fairness study where they created inequity between monkeys 658 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: by giving some cucumbers and some grapes. Now, what we 659 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: need to define here is uh Daval actually says he 660 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: just thinks of cucumbers as being mostly water. Obviously, the 661 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: monkeys like the grapes way more than the cucumbers. But 662 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: they're perfectly fine getting a cucumber as a reward as 663 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: long as it's equal. But if they're in cages next 664 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: to one another, you get one monkey and you only 665 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: give it cucumbers. And if you get start giving grapes 666 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 1: to the other monkey, the cucumber monkey gets upset. They 667 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: freak out. Yeah, and he he, you know, throw the cucumber, 668 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: the cucumber back at the handler. I guess right, demanding 669 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: a grape. Uh. And Duval says this is basically the 670 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: primate version of the Wall Street protests. I think this 671 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: talk was in two thousand twelve. Uh, and he describes 672 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: going back to the conflict that we described in the 673 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: previous episode. This is a study that they received a 674 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: lot of flak four trying to put lie the idea 675 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: of fairness to primates really angered a lot of scholars 676 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: in various disciplines, including economics. Yeah, well, well, I mean, 677 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: I think the idea is that in economics there's this 678 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: idea of rationality. You know that people rationally maximize their 679 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: own benefit. Um, you know that they will naturally go 680 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: for the option that makes the most sense and the 681 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: most benefit to them. And it doesn't make sense to 682 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 1: refuse a small reward. Even if you just get a cucumber, 683 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: you should accept it. You shouldn't throw it in the 684 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: face of the person who gave it to you because 685 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: you didn't get the thing that somebody else got. But 686 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: that's just not what monkeys are. Like, I gotta say, 687 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: after reading his work and watching these videos and just 688 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: being kind of immersed in this stuff, it's interesting how 689 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: much of primate behavior I'm noticing in myself and in 690 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: other human beings around me, Like as I'm just going 691 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 1: about my day to day. Now, Christian, here's the crucial question, 692 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: are you more of a chimpanzee or more of a banobo. 693 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm probably more of a binobo. And I'll tell you why, 694 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,839 Speaker 1: because I think Binobo's play better into devolved idea of 695 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 1: what he calls evolved morality. Okay, and this is something 696 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm gonna just say it. I'd like 697 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: to see a little bit more often from my fellow 698 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: human being. Uh So, he says this is a combination 699 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: of empathy and consolation, pro social tendencies and reciprocity and fairness. 700 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: And he says morality is obviously more than what he's 701 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: talking about here, but it would be impossible without these ingredients, 702 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: these just very basic ingredients, is what leads us to 703 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: our quote unquote morality that we use to sort of 704 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: lead our everyday social lives. And disconnected from the main 705 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: book we've been talking about in these two episodes and 706 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: this Ted talk and the stuff we've addressed, he's written 707 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: whole books on animal morality. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Alright, So 708 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: that wraps up our discussion. But we got a chance 709 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: to talk to Dr duval Um and so this is 710 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: our conversation with him. So Dr duval could you introduce yourself, Well, 711 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: let us know who you are and uh, and a 712 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: little bit about your background. I'm a biologist, but I 713 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: teach at Emory University in the psychology department. I also 714 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: work at the Yorkies Primate Center, which is a very 715 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: big primate channel that we have here in Atlanta. And 716 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: my origin is I'm from the Netherlands, but I came 717 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 1: already more than thirty years ago. I'm a legal immigrant 718 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: one or thirty years ago to the US. And uh, 719 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: I live and work here. I saw that you actually 720 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: you just got your citizenship a couple of years ago. Yeah, congratulations, 721 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: thank you. Uh So in the episode, Christian and I 722 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: already discussed a few examples of animal cognitive capacities that 723 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 1: you cite in the book. For example, we talked a 724 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 1: little bit about the cooperative rope pulling experiments. Uh and 725 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,800 Speaker 1: for example about some apparent examples of mental time travel. 726 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 1: But I thought one good way to start off our 727 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: conversation might be to just ask you for your subjective 728 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: impression of some of the most striking examples of a 729 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,439 Speaker 1: paramid of apparent animal cognition that you've witnessed over the years. 730 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: What sticks out in your mind the most. Yeah, I 731 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: think there's many discoveries recently. For example, the tool used 732 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 1: by crows is a very remarkable and it's not just 733 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: that they use tool. The crows make tools, so they 734 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: transform things to make it more suitable as a tool. 735 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 1: You have the studies of mirror self recognition, which I 736 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: always find fascinating. You have the studies of thinking forward 737 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: and thinking backwards. So they do experiments with apes, for example, 738 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: where you you give them a tool that they cannot 739 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: use immediately. They can only use it the next morning 740 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,839 Speaker 1: to get food. And so then you wonder will they 741 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: going onto the tool, will they keep it with them 742 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: because they know that they're going to use it the 743 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 1: next day. So they're kind of planning studies that are 744 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 1: being done, and and that kind of things is also 745 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 1: being done in the field with field workers following apes 746 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: around and see if they collect their tools long before 747 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: they start using them, which they actually do. And and 748 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: so I think there's an enormous range of studies that 749 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 1: have to do with planning and self awareness and so 750 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: on and and and some of these studies they get 751 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: actually quite close to what you could call consciousness, even 752 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: though no one knows exactly what consciousness is. Um. Uh. 753 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: There's a lot of things that that the animals do 754 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: that we cannot do without being conscious of it, and 755 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: so we wonder if maybe the animals are conscious. Also 756 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: interesting is so is a follow up from that? Um? 757 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 1: Do you think that consciousness is likely to be closely 758 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,359 Speaker 1: associated with the idea of mental time travel, that if 759 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: you don't just exist in the here and now, but 760 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: you're able to think about the future and think about 761 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 1: the past. Do you think that that's crucial to the 762 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: idea of consciousness. I think it's one way it can 763 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: manifest itself. So, for example, they do studies here. Also 764 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: at Emory, we do studies on meta cognition. Do you 765 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 1: know what you know? So you can set up an 766 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,359 Speaker 1: experiment with monkeys, for example, where they can choose one 767 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: option that they have learned a solution to and another 768 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: option where they are not sure if they know the solution, 769 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: and so you can see do they know what kind 770 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: of knowledge they have acquired. It's called meta cognition, and 771 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,320 Speaker 1: we humans, we really cannot do that without being conscious 772 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: of the whole process and of our knowledge. And so 773 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: then people wonder is a monkey capable because the monkeys 774 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: are capable of doing this, Are they capable of doing 775 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: that without consciousness? Or they do it in exactly the 776 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: same way as we. And so that's the sort of 777 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 1: the issues that people address. And it's not just in 778 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: relation to time travel. I think it's in relation to 779 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 1: all sorts of capacities. Interesting, So the idea you're talking 780 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: about there would be that, like, if you're able to 781 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 1: judge your own confidence in how well you know something, 782 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: that shows that you must be able to think about 783 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: your own thoughts. Yeah. So for example, if I if 784 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,840 Speaker 1: I ask in my class here at Emory, who knows 785 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,240 Speaker 1: who knows the answer to this? And and there's five 786 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 1: hands going up, So there's going to be five people 787 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 1: who have some confidence that they know the answer to 788 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: a question, which means that they have knowledge of their 789 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,839 Speaker 1: own knowledge. And um, yeah, us that's very hard to 790 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: do without being unconscious of the process. And so we 791 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,919 Speaker 1: think that some animals have that capacity too. Interesting. So 792 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: one more thing I wanted to ask you about was 793 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,000 Speaker 1: um In the book, you discuss how we keep finding 794 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: interesting clues of intelligent cognition in animals that are more 795 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,799 Speaker 1: and more separate from us. Pholow genetically they're separated from 796 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,400 Speaker 1: us by more and more years of divergent evolution. And 797 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: then you make a prediction, you say in the book 798 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: quote every car native capacity that we discover is going 799 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: to be older and more widespread than we initially thought. 800 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: Can you explain a little bit about what this prediction 801 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: means and what what justifies your thinking on this subject. Well, 802 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 1: this is something that that has happened all the time, 803 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,839 Speaker 1: and so and so. For example of the tool use, 804 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: it's maybe the clearest example is that we initially started 805 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 1: testing tools with the apes, and the apes are very 806 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 1: good with the tools, and since we are we humans 807 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,879 Speaker 1: are very good with tools. Also, we're very impressed, most 808 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,839 Speaker 1: impressed by capacities that relate to what we can do. 809 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 1: And so the apes they not only make tools, they 810 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: plant tools and so on. But then very soon thereafter 811 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 1: we've got these studies on other species, like the birds, 812 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: so so so, first came the monkeys. The monkeys are 813 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: different from from apes. As you may know, monkeys have 814 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: tails and are smaller. So putting monkeys in the can, 815 00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: put in monkeys in the field. They were using stones 816 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,439 Speaker 1: to crack nuts, which no one had expected them to do, 817 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 1: but they were doing that, and they have been tested 818 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: in captivity also. And then came the new Caledonian crows 819 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: who who modify branches to make them more suitable to 820 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,920 Speaker 1: extract groups from travises. And so they are not just 821 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 1: use tools. These crows, they make tools. And they started 822 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 1: testing the crows and all sorts of other things in 823 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: the lab and and the crows have a lot of 824 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: the same capacities as the apes do. Then we got 825 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 1: to use in the octopus as octopus movies. If you 826 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: look them up, you see them using coconut shells to 827 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:42,759 Speaker 1: help hide in We got recently a finding of alligators 828 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: using tools. So the alligators they live near heron colonies, 829 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 1: and the herons for their nests they need branches and 830 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 1: they scoop up these branches and sometimes a branch maybe 831 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,719 Speaker 1: sitting on an alligator and that's the moment that the 832 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: alligator can maybe grab the heron and eat it. And 833 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,279 Speaker 1: so but they found is that some alligators they were 834 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:09,239 Speaker 1: bringing branches from distances to the pump um, probably in 835 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 1: order to lure inherents close to them. And so so 836 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: now we have tool us in so many different species. 837 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: And so this has happened all the time. It has 838 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,439 Speaker 1: happened with mirror self recognition has happened with these time 839 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: travel studies that we talked about. Um, it's almost anything 840 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: you can think of. It's first usually discovered in the apes, 841 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:32,960 Speaker 1: and then we moved to the dogs, and to the 842 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 1: dolphins and to the birds, and it turns out that 843 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 1: the capacity is probably present in many of them. So 844 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,760 Speaker 1: I have a follow up on this from a recent 845 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,399 Speaker 1: study that we actually did an episode on, And I'm 846 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,720 Speaker 1: curious if you've heard about this the Pom Pom crab 847 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,320 Speaker 1: or the boxer crab and how it uses c N 848 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: mns as tools. Have you heard about this this study? 849 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,759 Speaker 1: So it's it's a sort of cheerleading type Yeah, exactly, so, 850 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: so real quick summary of it. They hold anemonies in 851 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 1: each of their claws, and they're able to use the 852 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,080 Speaker 1: anemonies to scoop up food and bring the food to 853 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,799 Speaker 1: their mouths. But the most recent study, and this is 854 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,200 Speaker 1: where it gets really crazy, is that if they only 855 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,759 Speaker 1: have one anemony, they will rip it in half in 856 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: just the right way to cause it to reproduce and 857 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: clone itself, so they have two of them. So we 858 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: did a whole episode on this study, and I was 859 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: just curious. You know, maybe you don't have, you know, 860 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,880 Speaker 1: a strong opinion on it since you just heard about it. 861 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,000 Speaker 1: But do you think it's possible that this is a 862 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: case of cognitive tool use or do you think maybe 863 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: it's just like an invertebrate instinct that these crabs are 864 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,359 Speaker 1: performing with these anemonies. No, it's it sounds like two 865 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 1: use of course, miss tools. We usually say that an 866 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:56,759 Speaker 1: animal uses an inanimate object to do something, right, in 867 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,840 Speaker 1: this case, they're using another animal to do something this 868 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 1: but it is an extension of the body and that's 869 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 1: in the sense of tool us. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's 870 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,839 Speaker 1: pretty fascinating. I recommend you check it out. Um, So 871 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 1: I have a question, just like pulling out and and 872 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 1: let's look at the sort of broad discipline in academics 873 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,279 Speaker 1: of these studies. How do you think we're going to 874 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,360 Speaker 1: look back on studies of animal intelligence in a hundred 875 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: and fifty years. Are we going to regard today's methodologies 876 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,720 Speaker 1: with the same sort of predominant view that we currently 877 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,479 Speaker 1: look at past research or do you think that we've 878 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,319 Speaker 1: come to a point where current research is now going 879 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: to be a stepping stone towards a better understanding of 880 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,200 Speaker 1: animal intelligence. Yeah, I think a hund of six years 881 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,319 Speaker 1: from now we probably know a lot more about the 882 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: neuroscience behind all of this. So at the moment, the neuroscientists, 883 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 1: they have still very simplistic views of animals, and they 884 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,560 Speaker 1: test animals in very simplistic ways like activity levels or 885 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: do they do behavior or behavior b um. And so 886 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,440 Speaker 1: the neuro scientists need to learn more about animal intelligence 887 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,520 Speaker 1: and animal behavior and then they can maybe help us 888 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,440 Speaker 1: solve the issue of what what what makes the crows 889 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,719 Speaker 1: used tools in the same way as that the apes 890 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,960 Speaker 1: use tools is do they have similar areas in the 891 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,240 Speaker 1: brain that are similarly specialized or do they have ways 892 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,719 Speaker 1: of solving this problem in a totally different way than 893 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 1: the apes do, And so we don't know that actually, 894 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: so we usually assume that if related species, like let's 895 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,839 Speaker 1: say you use a tool and I use a tool 896 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,920 Speaker 1: and the schimpanzee uses the tool, we assume that we 897 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,879 Speaker 1: are using the brain in the same way to do 898 00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,840 Speaker 1: these to solve these issues. But when it comes to 899 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,799 Speaker 1: birds or other species, we don't know that. And so 900 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,560 Speaker 1: I think the neuroscientists are going to help us clarify 901 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 1: what is going on in the brain when when these 902 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: problems are being solved, and yes, we will then look 903 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,799 Speaker 1: at a hundred fifty years from now, we will look 904 00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:01,440 Speaker 1: at what we do now as interesting pioneering stuff, but 905 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,239 Speaker 1: without knowing the mechanisms behind it. Really so, so we 906 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,759 Speaker 1: are in a different phase now because in the last CeNSE, 907 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 1: where we were not even allowed to talk about animal 908 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 1: intelligence and animal cognition, we can only talk about instincts 909 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,319 Speaker 1: or simple learning processes. We were not allowed to use 910 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 1: the word cognition for animals, and so that has all 911 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,640 Speaker 1: changed that we now have a whole new generation of 912 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,920 Speaker 1: scientists who are much less reluctant than who uses this 913 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,880 Speaker 1: kind of terminology. Yeah, we might have some questions for 914 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,440 Speaker 1: you about the influence of ethology and behaviorism in a 915 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,480 Speaker 1: little bit, but I wanted to ask a question first. 916 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,920 Speaker 1: So you talk in the book, and I really like 917 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,160 Speaker 1: this point you made about our tendency to want to 918 00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,600 Speaker 1: look at an animal behavior and then say what does 919 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,600 Speaker 1: that mean for us? What does that mean about what 920 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,319 Speaker 1: it's like to be human? And I think you sort 921 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,560 Speaker 1: of discourage that view, but I I am sorry, I 922 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,520 Speaker 1: do want to ask a question about that anyway. So, um, 923 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,200 Speaker 1: I wonder what you think about the legitimacy of drawing 924 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:05,799 Speaker 1: conclusions about human evolution by studying the behavior of existing 925 00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,000 Speaker 1: other primates today. For example, just one thing that I've 926 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,520 Speaker 1: read about is the work of a couple of primatologists 927 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,879 Speaker 1: who study savannah chimpanzees in Senegal and specifically how these 928 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 1: chimpanzees behave in the presence of wildfire, like how how 929 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,480 Speaker 1: much they seem to understand fire and to predict its movements. 930 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,080 Speaker 1: And in this particular case, I guess the question would be, 931 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,120 Speaker 1: can we use these observations about savannah chimpanzees to generate 932 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,560 Speaker 1: anything useful for theories about how our ancestors might have 933 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,000 Speaker 1: behaved in the presence of fire before we were before 934 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,080 Speaker 1: we were able to use fire as a tool. Or 935 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:46,799 Speaker 1: is this a misapplication of these observations about other primates? Well, 936 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:51,040 Speaker 1: it's an interesting example if you give because I remember 937 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,800 Speaker 1: a book by an anthropologist of maybe thirty years ago 938 00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: who claimed that fire and our control over fire is 939 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,719 Speaker 1: what made as human and where everything got started. And 940 00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,720 Speaker 1: other animals are afraid of fire or they get burned 941 00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,799 Speaker 1: in the fire, but we brought it under control. And 942 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,839 Speaker 1: look at how important that was and then of course 943 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,880 Speaker 1: we had we had here in Atlanta, we had Consi 944 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,520 Speaker 1: the bonobo who would roast marshmallows in the fire and 945 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,200 Speaker 1: would poke the fire and was not afraid of fire 946 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:26,080 Speaker 1: at all, which was the first indicator that actually, fear 947 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,680 Speaker 1: of fire is not necessarily inborn and can be overcome. 948 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,920 Speaker 1: And now we have these observations of chimps using fire 949 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,960 Speaker 1: for their own advantages. They're not making a fire, and 950 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,279 Speaker 1: they're not having a fireplace or something, but they wait 951 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,600 Speaker 1: for a spontaneous fire, and they're not afraid of it, 952 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,839 Speaker 1: and they use it for their own purposes, and they 953 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,600 Speaker 1: know how to step around it and so on. And 954 00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,120 Speaker 1: I think, what what It is interesting to see that 955 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,680 Speaker 1: kind of things because it debunks certain arguments, as always, 956 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,360 Speaker 1: these claims of human uniqueness that are always going around. 957 00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,239 Speaker 1: Only humans can do this, only humans can do that, 958 00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,600 Speaker 1: And we primatologist, we're always happy to show that these 959 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 1: claims are wrong, because we feel that we are primates 960 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,880 Speaker 1: and we are not fundamentally different from other primates, and 961 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,520 Speaker 1: and this confirms that kind of I D so I 962 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,759 Speaker 1: have a question for you. Uh that it's a it's 963 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,920 Speaker 1: slightly political, and after reading some some interviews with you previously, 964 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:24,400 Speaker 1: I've gotten the impression that you have applied your previous 965 00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:28,840 Speaker 1: work to politics. So your research has mainly focused on 966 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 1: empathy and animal cognition, and I'd love to hear your 967 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:37,279 Speaker 1: perspective on how empathy, morality, and reciprocity are playing out 968 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:41,160 Speaker 1: on a larger scale with human beings and our current 969 00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,279 Speaker 1: climate in the United States. Now you've mentioned before that 970 00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 1: a lot of human politics mirror primate politics. I'm specifically 971 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,920 Speaker 1: thinking of what you call the cognitive channel of empathy 972 00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,880 Speaker 1: and how are how are we currently at taking the 973 00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,080 Speaker 1: perspective of somebody else. Yeah, I think empathy remains a 974 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,880 Speaker 1: very important capacity, even though we now have certain scientists 975 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,279 Speaker 1: who say empathy is not what's going to solve the 976 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,920 Speaker 1: problems in the world, which is probably true. But for example, 977 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,240 Speaker 1: the abolishment of slavery in this country was was partly 978 00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,960 Speaker 1: an act of empathy. Lincoln literally said that he was 979 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:22,319 Speaker 1: bothered by seeing slaves in chains and and so that's 980 00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,839 Speaker 1: an empathic reaction. And I think empathy is always sort 981 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,840 Speaker 1: of in the background of all the debates, the political debates, 982 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,360 Speaker 1: the debate about healthcare, for example, do we care about 983 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,160 Speaker 1: the health of others, even people who cannot really pay 984 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,400 Speaker 1: for the healthcare that we need to provide. Um, that's 985 00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 1: that's a question of empathy also, so and and and 986 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,040 Speaker 1: for example, the reaction now to the immigration crisis is 987 00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,279 Speaker 1: also we empathize with people who want to come in 988 00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,279 Speaker 1: and so on. So there's always empathy is always in 989 00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,560 Speaker 1: the background of these debates. They're not going to provide 990 00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,920 Speaker 1: the final solution necessarily on on how we should handle 991 00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,239 Speaker 1: these things. It's not necessarily the only thing that we 992 00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,760 Speaker 1: need to consider, obviously, but it's almost part of the debates. 993 00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:05,960 Speaker 1: And I think there's plenty of empathy to go around. 994 00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:09,400 Speaker 1: I've always felt that in two thousand and eight, when 995 00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,680 Speaker 1: we had the financial crisis, that all of a sudden, 996 00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,600 Speaker 1: empathy became a more important topic. It was almost as 997 00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,880 Speaker 1: if after two thousand and eight, we realized that completely 998 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 1: unfet up market mechanism is not gonna provide a solution 999 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 1: to a society. Society is much more than than market mechanisms, 1000 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,920 Speaker 1: and I think we started to realize that very clearly 1001 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,120 Speaker 1: after two thousand eight, and and empathy became a major 1002 00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,560 Speaker 1: issue in Obama made it a major word that he 1003 00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,959 Speaker 1: would use on occasion and I think since that time 1004 00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,080 Speaker 1: also science got involved, and there's now a lot of 1005 00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,400 Speaker 1: neuroscience on empathy, and there's my kind of observations of 1006 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,799 Speaker 1: empathy and animals and so on, and I think also 1007 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:55,000 Speaker 1: the scientists got interested in the topic. Yeah, I have 1008 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:56,920 Speaker 1: a lot of sympathy for that view, and I think 1009 00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,520 Speaker 1: I can definitely see how what you call for spective 1010 00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:04,600 Speaker 1: taking is kind of crucial to being able to live 1011 00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,800 Speaker 1: as a moral being. You know, you have to understand 1012 00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,200 Speaker 1: the suffering of others in order to try to prevent it. 1013 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,240 Speaker 1: But I think you alluded to this in your answer. 1014 00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:16,240 Speaker 1: I was interested to ask you about these scientists you 1015 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,320 Speaker 1: you I think alluded to who are coming out against empathy. 1016 00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:21,280 Speaker 1: The one I know about, for example, is the Yale 1017 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:25,280 Speaker 1: psychologist Paul Bloom, who is arguing that empathy is in 1018 00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,280 Speaker 1: fact not the best basis for morality, that it can 1019 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,480 Speaker 1: I think he says it can impair rational thinking because 1020 00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:35,600 Speaker 1: it forces you to sort of be emotional about single cases, 1021 00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:39,200 Speaker 1: where in fact there are sort of large, abstract problems 1022 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,040 Speaker 1: that actually hurt more people, but they're harder to empathize 1023 00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,479 Speaker 1: with because you can't picture a single person being hurt 1024 00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:48,360 Speaker 1: by them. In in such an easy way. Um. I 1025 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:52,040 Speaker 1: was just wondering what you thought about that. Yeah, I think, 1026 00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:56,120 Speaker 1: um uh, it is true that empathy is biased. So 1027 00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:58,560 Speaker 1: empathy is more for and if its that are close 1028 00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:01,480 Speaker 1: to you and your family members. But you know, we 1029 00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,440 Speaker 1: absolutely need that. If let's say I would I would 1030 00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:09,680 Speaker 1: empathize equally with everyone in the world. First of all, 1031 00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,520 Speaker 1: I would have no life. It would be a very 1032 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,800 Speaker 1: hard life to have. But also I might neglect my 1033 00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,040 Speaker 1: own children, so to speak, which no one wants me 1034 00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,240 Speaker 1: to do. And so the fact that empathy is biased 1035 00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,680 Speaker 1: is not a bad thing. That's what evolution designed it for, 1036 00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,000 Speaker 1: is as a biased system. And what Paul Bloom is 1037 00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:29,760 Speaker 1: sort of doing is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. 1038 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:34,040 Speaker 1: I think we need absolutely empathy and compassion, and our 1039 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,960 Speaker 1: whole moral system is based on empathy, but it expands it. 1040 00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:40,320 Speaker 1: That's true. That's in that sense, it is correct. You 1041 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,320 Speaker 1: need to expand it. You cannot just stay with that 1042 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 1: very biased and very parochial mechanism that evolution designed for us. 1043 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,640 Speaker 1: You need to go beyond it. And I think we're 1044 00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,680 Speaker 1: trying to do that in our moral systems. Absolutely, maybe 1045 00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,760 Speaker 1: we need empathy plus sort of the Yeah, so for 1046 00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,480 Speaker 1: a couple, we empathize with animals, and so example, the 1047 00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:04,040 Speaker 1: agricultural industry, the way they treat animals, I'm very unhappy 1048 00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:08,960 Speaker 1: about that. And um, that's also an empathy reaction where 1049 00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,280 Speaker 1: we say, well, what they're doing is wrong. Um, And 1050 00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,720 Speaker 1: that's based on on my empathy for animals. And so 1051 00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,760 Speaker 1: we we have this kind of expanded capacity which is 1052 00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,680 Speaker 1: not just for our family members and friends, and we're 1053 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,960 Speaker 1: capable of empathizing this individuals who are quite different from 1054 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:28,760 Speaker 1: us or even different species. So you you mentioned about 1055 00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:30,960 Speaker 1: our treatment of animals. One thing I wonder is if 1056 00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:36,760 Speaker 1: you think that uh study of animal cognition has moral implications, 1057 00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:41,120 Speaker 1: like do we have more moral responsibilities toward animals that 1058 00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,600 Speaker 1: show more evidence of cognition or does that not really 1059 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:48,480 Speaker 1: change the picture of how we should treat animals. I 1060 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,680 Speaker 1: think I think it has done that. If you look 1061 00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:54,520 Speaker 1: at how we now, for example, how we look at 1062 00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:57,920 Speaker 1: the killer wheels in captivity, or dolphins in captivity, or 1063 00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,120 Speaker 1: elephants and circuses, how do cert are closing as a 1064 01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,680 Speaker 1: result of this? Um? And I think this is all 1065 01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,520 Speaker 1: under the influence of the sort of signs that we 1066 01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:11,280 Speaker 1: do on animal cognition. And in my own career, for example, 1067 01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,919 Speaker 1: I worked on symplonzies and the symplcies are not being 1068 01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,920 Speaker 1: used in biomedical studies anymore, and i H has declared 1069 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,800 Speaker 1: them off limits for that kind of research, which is 1070 01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:23,200 Speaker 1: partly based on the sort of research that we do. 1071 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,280 Speaker 1: And so yes, it does have moral implications. It's going 1072 01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,920 Speaker 1: to affect even more, I think the way we treat animals. 1073 01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:34,280 Speaker 1: And in the end, the big elephant in the room 1074 01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:38,280 Speaker 1: is I think, farm animals, because the numbers of animals 1075 01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:41,800 Speaker 1: that are that are used for food are much bigger 1076 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,240 Speaker 1: than all the other numbers taken together. So the farm 1077 01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,360 Speaker 1: animals are going to be next. And I think, and 1078 01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,200 Speaker 1: that's also happening. People are getting more worried about how 1079 01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,600 Speaker 1: we treat them and what we do with them. Along 1080 01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:57,320 Speaker 1: these lines, I'm curious. You know, your most recent book 1081 01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:00,520 Speaker 1: is all about the discipline of science and how it 1082 01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:05,200 Speaker 1: understands animal intelligence, and I'm curious where you think that's 1083 01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,840 Speaker 1: currently at you you describe the two schools of thought 1084 01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,520 Speaker 1: in your book that have dominated the last century and more, 1085 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:15,600 Speaker 1: the influence of behaviorism and ethology. But I'm curious have 1086 01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:20,440 Speaker 1: they totally given way to evolutionary cognition as you describe it, 1087 01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,560 Speaker 1: or is there are there some remnants left, No, they 1088 01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:29,520 Speaker 1: are integrated into it. So the behaviorists is basically skin arians. 1089 01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,960 Speaker 1: It was a very dominant school here in the US, 1090 01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,440 Speaker 1: which basically says that everything animals do is learned by 1091 01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:41,560 Speaker 1: simple rewards and punishment and conditioning, and a lot of 1092 01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,760 Speaker 1: animal behavior, of course is they were not wrong on that, 1093 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,840 Speaker 1: a lot of animal behavior is learned, but they tried 1094 01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,200 Speaker 1: to reduce everything, and so they didn't allow us to 1095 01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:54,160 Speaker 1: speak of emotions or of cognition. They didn't like anything 1096 01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:56,840 Speaker 1: that related to the inner life of animals. And then 1097 01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:01,120 Speaker 1: you have the eatologists. I'm trained, there's an intologist. Ethologies 1098 01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,680 Speaker 1: were more interested in naturalistic behavior, and so that was 1099 01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,880 Speaker 1: more like the instinct side of animals. I was very 1100 01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:11,040 Speaker 1: strongly developed in Europe. And what we have now in 1101 01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:15,320 Speaker 1: this new field of animal cognition or evolutionary cognition. But 1102 01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,760 Speaker 1: we have now in that field is a sort of 1103 01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:21,920 Speaker 1: combination of these two. So we use the experimental techniques 1104 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:24,680 Speaker 1: of the behaviorists and the skin arians, we use the 1105 01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:29,000 Speaker 1: observational techniques of the ecologists and the concepts from both 1106 01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,560 Speaker 1: of them, and we combine that, but we combine that 1107 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,560 Speaker 1: with a much more open spirit about what animals can 1108 01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:38,160 Speaker 1: do and how they mentally operate. And we're not so 1109 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:40,440 Speaker 1: we're looked at anymore to speak of the emotions of 1110 01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:43,560 Speaker 1: animals or the cognition of animals as we used to be. 1111 01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:46,680 Speaker 1: And so these these two schools have not disappeared. They 1112 01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,520 Speaker 1: have sort of been eaten up by the new field 1113 01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:53,880 Speaker 1: and they integrated into it. So one subject that you 1114 01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,080 Speaker 1: talked about in the book that I found very interesting 1115 01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:58,320 Speaker 1: was this idea. I think I think you phrased it 1116 01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:02,240 Speaker 1: as critical anthropomopal orphism. Uh. And I was wondering if 1117 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,400 Speaker 1: you could explain a little bit about this concept, why 1118 01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:08,280 Speaker 1: you prefer it to maybe what you might call, I 1119 01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,640 Speaker 1: don't know more gullible or credulous anthropomorphism. And then this 1120 01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:19,280 Speaker 1: opposite position that you call entropo denial. So anthropomorphism is 1121 01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,640 Speaker 1: usually what gets thrown at us if we say that 1122 01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,480 Speaker 1: animals are, for example, jealous, or they want this, or 1123 01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:30,520 Speaker 1: they want that, and because intentions and emotions were taboo, 1124 01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,400 Speaker 1: and so then people would say, well, you're very anthropomorphic 1125 01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:37,840 Speaker 1: about these animals. Uh. And I don't necessarily agree with that, 1126 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:41,280 Speaker 1: especially not with the great apes because they are literally 1127 01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:45,440 Speaker 1: anthropomorphic in the sense that they are like humans. And 1128 01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,520 Speaker 1: and so to use the same terminology for when chimp's 1129 01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:50,520 Speaker 1: kiss and kiss and embrace, it sort of have to 1130 01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:54,560 Speaker 1: a fight to call that a reconciliation as I as 1131 01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:56,880 Speaker 1: I have done, people would say, you have to call 1132 01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,560 Speaker 1: that a mouse to mouse kiss, post conflict kiss or something. 1133 01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:04,360 Speaker 1: So they didn't like the anthropomorphic terminology, even though my 1134 01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:07,680 Speaker 1: assumption is that if if Jim's do something similar to 1135 01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:10,080 Speaker 1: us on the similar circumstances, you have to give it 1136 01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:13,960 Speaker 1: the same label. So I'm not so afraid of anthropomorphism. 1137 01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,040 Speaker 1: But it is true that some people who don't know 1138 01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:21,680 Speaker 1: animals very well, they throw labels at them that that 1139 01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,320 Speaker 1: we who work with these animals are are a bit 1140 01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:29,160 Speaker 1: scared of. And so if, for example, you let's say 1141 01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:31,680 Speaker 1: you go to a show with your dog and your 1142 01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:34,640 Speaker 1: dog wins the show and you say, my dog is proud, 1143 01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:38,240 Speaker 1: I'm sort of skeptical about that. I'm not sure that 1144 01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,360 Speaker 1: the dog has a concept of the show and has 1145 01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,520 Speaker 1: a concept of what what we're looking for in the 1146 01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:46,360 Speaker 1: show and why he gets the ribbon. I'm not sure 1147 01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:48,720 Speaker 1: that the dog knows all these things. The dog may 1148 01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:52,040 Speaker 1: know that you're giving attention and you're giving goodies. Well, 1149 01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,400 Speaker 1: that's something that a dog can understand. So we shouldn't 1150 01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,600 Speaker 1: exaggerate in our interpretations of animal behavior, and people often 1151 01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:03,360 Speaker 1: do the but we should certainly be able to use 1152 01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:08,280 Speaker 1: certain concepts, especially things that we have quantified and observed 1153 01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:12,200 Speaker 1: frequently and maybe done some experiments on, like reconciliation or 1154 01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:16,720 Speaker 1: cooperation or jealousy or whatever things that we can test. 1155 01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,080 Speaker 1: We certainly should be able to use a kind of terminology. 1156 01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:25,920 Speaker 1: I'd like to hear your perspective on the differences between 1157 01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:29,439 Speaker 1: writing for an academic audience versus writing for a popular one. 1158 01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,760 Speaker 1: Especially love that you choose to do your own illustrations 1159 01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,600 Speaker 1: and your books. Uh, and you seem to enjoy writing 1160 01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:39,600 Speaker 1: for both audiences. So I'm curious how you balance that 1161 01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:45,080 Speaker 1: both professionally and creatively. Yeah, you do need to balance it. 1162 01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,640 Speaker 1: I knew. For example, I still know Desmond Morris, who 1163 01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:53,240 Speaker 1: was a very popular writer in biology and um he 1164 01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:57,480 Speaker 1: used to be a scientist. He has a PhD in 1165 01:05:57,520 --> 01:05:59,720 Speaker 1: all of this, and then he became a popular author, 1166 01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:04,360 Speaker 1: and very soon thereafter, like five years later, people didn't 1167 01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:06,600 Speaker 1: take him seriously anymore. They would say, Oh, he's just 1168 01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:09,240 Speaker 1: a popular wizer. We don't need to pay attention to him. 1169 01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:13,720 Speaker 1: He's a vulgarizer, and so and so I've learned a 1170 01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,400 Speaker 1: lesson from that is that if you're gonna popularize, you 1171 01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:20,000 Speaker 1: still need to keep doing your signs, otherwise people are 1172 01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,560 Speaker 1: not going to take you seriously anymore. And so I've 1173 01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:26,280 Speaker 1: always had a sort of two track career. I did 1174 01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:30,200 Speaker 1: my signs, and I've written many scientific articles, and I 1175 01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:32,960 Speaker 1: did my popular books, which I do usually in the 1176 01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:35,720 Speaker 1: evenings and in the weekends, which is quite separate from 1177 01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:39,920 Speaker 1: our work, although all our work is in there basically, 1178 01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:42,960 Speaker 1: So so I always done these things sort of separately. 1179 01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:46,120 Speaker 1: And I find writing books is a lot of fun 1180 01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:49,760 Speaker 1: because I'm more free to say what I want to 1181 01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:52,880 Speaker 1: say than in a scientific article, where you're very constrained 1182 01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:55,439 Speaker 1: and you stay as close as possible to the data 1183 01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:58,000 Speaker 1: that you have collected. And in the booking you can 1184 01:06:58,160 --> 01:06:59,959 Speaker 1: you can dwell to lot of you can talk about 1185 01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,160 Speaker 1: other topics. You can talk about the politics in Washington 1186 01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:06,760 Speaker 1: if you want, or you can talk about morality or religion, 1187 01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:09,920 Speaker 1: and so you can you can go far beyond the 1188 01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:12,919 Speaker 1: sort of data that you have collected. At the risk 1189 01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,920 Speaker 1: of buttering you up too much, I really really enjoyed 1190 01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:17,920 Speaker 1: your writing style in this book. I think you have 1191 01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:20,840 Speaker 1: a great talent for popular writing, and so I hope 1192 01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,120 Speaker 1: you continue doing it. Yeah. I I write, of course, 1193 01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,840 Speaker 1: not in my native language, and I think that in 1194 01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:30,480 Speaker 1: a way, it's it's a disadvantage because I'm sometimes really 1195 01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:33,320 Speaker 1: jealous if I read let's say, Robert Sapolsky, who is 1196 01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,440 Speaker 1: a primatologist and American primatology, and I think, well, if 1197 01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:39,560 Speaker 1: I could write like this, well, I'm very impressed by. 1198 01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:42,520 Speaker 1: On the other hand, by being not a native speaker, 1199 01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:47,040 Speaker 1: I simplify things and so so I don't make very convoluted, 1200 01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:49,920 Speaker 1: very complex sentences with a lot of alternative words and 1201 01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,920 Speaker 1: it's and synonyms and stuff like that, because my knowledge 1202 01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,320 Speaker 1: is more limited. And that makes it maybe for the 1203 01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:59,520 Speaker 1: readers easier because I have shorter sentences and and easier sentences. 1204 01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:03,439 Speaker 1: I just appreciate how clear everything is in the book, 1205 01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:06,120 Speaker 1: how clear it is what you think, how clear the 1206 01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,360 Speaker 1: examples you describe are. So I think you're doing great 1207 01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:14,160 Speaker 1: work on that front. Okay, thanks, Um, I've got another question, 1208 01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:17,559 Speaker 1: So if this maybe has a follow up that's more 1209 01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:22,960 Speaker 1: specific too. But if there's one specific misconception about animal 1210 01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:26,240 Speaker 1: intelligence that you think is very common and that you 1211 01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:29,760 Speaker 1: could instantly snap your fingers incorrect in everybody's minds, what 1212 01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:33,280 Speaker 1: what would it be? What does everybody get wrong? Well, 1213 01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:36,320 Speaker 1: one common one is that people think that animals live 1214 01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:40,200 Speaker 1: in the present purely. And we have now a lot 1215 01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:44,040 Speaker 1: of evidence that they think ahead, and not just the apes, 1216 01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:46,840 Speaker 1: but does rap studies on these kind of things also 1217 01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:49,840 Speaker 1: that they can think ahead and that they can sink 1218 01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:54,120 Speaker 1: back to specific events in the past. So that's one 1219 01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:58,000 Speaker 1: misconception I think that people have. Another one that they 1220 01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:01,280 Speaker 1: have is that everything in nature is cut throat and 1221 01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:05,200 Speaker 1: it's harsh, and they have this view of nature as 1222 01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:09,759 Speaker 1: dog eat dog, which which is not completely untrue of course. 1223 01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:13,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm looking here, I'm sitting at Emory Campus, 1224 01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:16,360 Speaker 1: and I see the hawks flying by, the red tailed 1225 01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:18,560 Speaker 1: hawks who are hunting for squirrels, and so yeah, that 1226 01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:22,520 Speaker 1: is dog eat dog is right there in front of me. Um. 1227 01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:25,840 Speaker 1: But there's also a lot of cooperation in the animal kingdom. 1228 01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:29,320 Speaker 1: There's lots of animals who survived by cooperating, and so 1229 01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,280 Speaker 1: they have empathy for each other's They help each other. 1230 01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:36,320 Speaker 1: They altruistic, sometimes they get things back for it. It's 1231 01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:39,360 Speaker 1: not you know, it's just as a human society, we 1232 01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:42,360 Speaker 1: are often kind to each other. But it's not as 1233 01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:45,120 Speaker 1: if that doesn't pay itself. So so that's how we 1234 01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:47,599 Speaker 1: are set up as a system, and that's how many 1235 01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:50,880 Speaker 1: animals are set up. As I follow up to this, 1236 01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:53,800 Speaker 1: your answer to the specific might be the same as 1237 01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:56,559 Speaker 1: your answer to the general. But what do you also 1238 01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:59,840 Speaker 1: think is the most common and pernicious misunderstanding people have 1239 01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:05,640 Speaker 1: about the great apes like chimpanzees and bonobo's. Yeah, I 1240 01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:10,880 Speaker 1: think people often don't know how close we are to them, 1241 01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,400 Speaker 1: so they they you know, the first time apes came 1242 01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:16,960 Speaker 1: to the London Zoo, which was in in in the 1243 01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:22,519 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, people were shocked. They were totally shocked they 1244 01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,160 Speaker 1: saw these apes, and so they had this feeling, if 1245 01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:29,280 Speaker 1: this is an animal, what what am I? So by 1246 01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,920 Speaker 1: seeing the apes, they all of a sudden realized how 1247 01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:34,680 Speaker 1: close they were to them. And we have now so 1248 01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:37,960 Speaker 1: this has worn off now and people are sort of 1249 01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,200 Speaker 1: maintaining their distance. And when they go to see the 1250 01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:42,519 Speaker 1: gorillas at the zoo in Atlanta, they may laugh at 1251 01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:46,719 Speaker 1: the gorillas. Um as as if they're funny, but so 1252 01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,439 Speaker 1: so they sort of tried to laugh off that close 1253 01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:53,639 Speaker 1: connection that we immediately see. But people don't fully realize 1254 01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,599 Speaker 1: how close we are to the apes. So, for example, 1255 01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:02,679 Speaker 1: the distance between me and a chimpanzee in genetic terms, 1256 01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:06,160 Speaker 1: is very similar to the distance between an African and 1257 01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:10,080 Speaker 1: an Asian elephant. African and Asian elephants are quite different 1258 01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:13,160 Speaker 1: the both We call them both elephants, So why don't 1259 01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:16,439 Speaker 1: we call both me and the ape apes? But we 1260 01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:18,599 Speaker 1: don't do that, so so for we make a sort 1261 01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:23,080 Speaker 1: of exception for ourselves, but we are genetically extremely close 1262 01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:26,720 Speaker 1: to the apes were basically apes. It's it's funny. I 1263 01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,280 Speaker 1: have to say, you know, researching your work for the 1264 01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:32,200 Speaker 1: last couple of days, the after effect that I took 1265 01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:36,040 Speaker 1: away was how much more I'm noticing primate behavior now 1266 01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:41,240 Speaker 1: in human beings? Uh? Yeah, you you comment in the 1267 01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:45,000 Speaker 1: book uh several times about the way that humans are 1268 01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:49,080 Speaker 1: so often scandalized by realizing how close they are to 1269 01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:51,320 Speaker 1: the other apes. Like, there's a story I think you 1270 01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:55,040 Speaker 1: tell about. It might be apocryphal, but the story about 1271 01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,639 Speaker 1: the apes in the London Zoo being very civilized when 1272 01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:03,320 Speaker 1: they consumed tea and this this made the crowds very uncomfortable. Yeah, 1273 01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:06,320 Speaker 1: because for for the Brits, of course, drinking tea is 1274 01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:11,160 Speaker 1: the peak of civilization, right and and so when the 1275 01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,479 Speaker 1: apes at the London Zoo got very good at drinking 1276 01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:16,599 Speaker 1: tea and holding the cups and all of that, people 1277 01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,720 Speaker 1: sort of felt threatened by it. And that's why the 1278 01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:23,080 Speaker 1: London Zoo retained the apes. They retrained them to make 1279 01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:25,400 Speaker 1: lots of errors and throw the cups around and bring 1280 01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:27,759 Speaker 1: them and stuff like that, because that's what people actually 1281 01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:30,559 Speaker 1: wanted to see. They want to they want to to 1282 01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:34,120 Speaker 1: keep their distance going. Well, this is my last question 1283 01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:37,479 Speaker 1: for you. Every year on the show, we we cover 1284 01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:41,599 Speaker 1: the Ignoble Prizes on the podcast. You are our first 1285 01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:45,200 Speaker 1: guest who has actually won the award and I would 1286 01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:49,600 Speaker 1: love to know what the experience was like. Well, do 1287 01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:51,559 Speaker 1: you want to know why I got it for? Well, 1288 01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:53,640 Speaker 1: we know what you got it for. We and we 1289 01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:55,600 Speaker 1: did mention it on the podcast, but you should you 1290 01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:58,160 Speaker 1: should go ahead and say that yourself. Yeah. Yeah, we 1291 01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:00,080 Speaker 1: we did a study. We we've done many st this 1292 01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:02,840 Speaker 1: on face recognition and simple seas. So you show you 1293 01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:05,120 Speaker 1: show them on a computer screen you show them faces, 1294 01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:07,599 Speaker 1: and can they recognize them? And can they connect one 1295 01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:10,320 Speaker 1: face with another and some one? And in the process 1296 01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:12,720 Speaker 1: of that, we we also throw in some behinds of 1297 01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:16,400 Speaker 1: simple seas and we found that actually they're very good 1298 01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:19,920 Speaker 1: with behinds as well. And so then we um we 1299 01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:23,680 Speaker 1: had these screens with butts on them and faces on them, 1300 01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:28,000 Speaker 1: and we demonstrated that simple seas recognize each other by 1301 01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:31,200 Speaker 1: the butt uh. And they can only do this this 1302 01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:34,880 Speaker 1: task with schims that they know. If you do if 1303 01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:37,439 Speaker 1: you show them, if you show them faces and butts 1304 01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:39,479 Speaker 1: of chims that they have never seen before, they cannot 1305 01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:41,880 Speaker 1: connected to. But with the one that they know, they 1306 01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:44,599 Speaker 1: connect to the face with the behind. And and so 1307 01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:47,880 Speaker 1: we wrote a paper and the title of us Faces 1308 01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:51,160 Speaker 1: and Behinds. And I got an Ignoble Price and went 1309 01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:55,519 Speaker 1: to Harvard to get the award, which was really it 1310 01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:59,400 Speaker 1: is like a circus there, as we've seen video in 1311 01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:03,240 Speaker 1: the ceremony on a yeah, and and and it's actually 1312 01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,800 Speaker 1: actual Nobel Prize winners who hand out the Ignoble price. 1313 01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:12,479 Speaker 1: And that's also where I met I met some fellow 1314 01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:16,160 Speaker 1: our these and these were people who had gotten the 1315 01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:19,280 Speaker 1: price because they had demonstrated brain activity in a dead fish. 1316 01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:21,680 Speaker 1: I thought this was so great. They had they had 1317 01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:23,960 Speaker 1: put a dead fish in the brain scanner and with 1318 01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:27,920 Speaker 1: the usual calculations that they made the demonstrate it there 1319 01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,559 Speaker 1: was brain activity, which of course is an impossibility. So 1320 01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:34,639 Speaker 1: they showed that that what we usually do when we 1321 01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:37,760 Speaker 1: calculate activity in the brain, that was actually wrong. So 1322 01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:40,280 Speaker 1: it was a very important paper in a way. But 1323 01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:42,479 Speaker 1: they told me how much trouble they had publishing it 1324 01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:44,960 Speaker 1: because there was a lot of resistance to it. I 1325 01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:47,439 Speaker 1: think we've actually discussed that paper on the podcast before. 1326 01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:49,720 Speaker 1: I think it was a dead salmon and the Yeah, 1327 01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:52,320 Speaker 1: it sort of was a reductive out of surdom of 1328 01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:56,920 Speaker 1: some of the fmr I techniques. Yeah, well, thank you 1329 01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:59,680 Speaker 1: so much for participating. And yeah, like we said, we 1330 01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:02,200 Speaker 1: we really loved your book and we recommend that all 1331 01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:04,640 Speaker 1: of you out there listening now go pick up a 1332 01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:07,160 Speaker 1: copy if you can, because I think it's it's great 1333 01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:18,960 Speaker 1: science writing and it's really fascinating. Okay, thank you. So 1334 01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:22,800 Speaker 1: that ends our two part series here on animal intelligence 1335 01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:27,800 Speaker 1: and the possibility of morality, empathy, maybe ethics and animals 1336 01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,840 Speaker 1: and are we smart enough to know how smart animals are? 1337 01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:33,800 Speaker 1: And like we said at the beginning, the answer seems 1338 01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:40,200 Speaker 1: to be yes. Maybe, So let us know what you think. 1339 01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:44,320 Speaker 1: What kind of examples have you seen of animal morality 1340 01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:49,920 Speaker 1: or just evolved cognition within the animals in your everyday life? 1341 01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:51,720 Speaker 1: Do you have examples that you could give us that 1342 01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:54,760 Speaker 1: maybe it could be experiments in the future. Or do 1343 01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:57,839 Speaker 1: you think animals are automata or do you think humans 1344 01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:01,200 Speaker 1: are automata? Oh, that that's needing. We should we really 1345 01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:03,920 Speaker 1: need to delve into that. That's a good one. Am 1346 01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:07,240 Speaker 1: I a robot? I don't know. I mean, I'm not conscious. 1347 01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:10,080 Speaker 1: Where can you tell us these things? Well, we're all 1348 01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:14,120 Speaker 1: over social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, and Instagram. 1349 01:16:14,439 --> 01:16:16,439 Speaker 1: Instagram is a great place to see pictures of us 1350 01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:19,120 Speaker 1: and determine whether or not where robots or not? Uh? 1351 01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:22,040 Speaker 1: The other really wouldn't be able to tell. Maybe not. Yeah, 1352 01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:24,080 Speaker 1: it depends on if our flesh had been pulled away 1353 01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:28,120 Speaker 1: from our skin Tyrrell Corp. Yeah, there you go. Uh. Also, 1354 01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:31,000 Speaker 1: you could always visit stuff to Blow your Mind dot com, 1355 01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:33,000 Speaker 1: which is a great place to check up on all 1356 01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:36,200 Speaker 1: the latest blog posts, podcast episodes. Go check out our 1357 01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:39,960 Speaker 1: podcast archive to get all the old episodes videos. There's 1358 01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:42,519 Speaker 1: probably some other stuff on their weird Robert does great 1359 01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:47,240 Speaker 1: posts about space, music, monsters, all that. Everything we do 1360 01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:49,400 Speaker 1: is there, And of course, if you want to get 1361 01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:52,320 Speaker 1: in touch with us directly to give us feedback about 1362 01:16:52,360 --> 01:16:55,080 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, or to request topics for 1363 01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:57,840 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hi, you can email 1364 01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:00,240 Speaker 1: us as always at blow the Mind at how stuff 1365 01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:12,600 Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of 1366 01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:22,479 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com. They 1367 01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:26,800 Speaker 1: believe very