1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:20,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to 2 00:00:20,756 --> 00:00:22,636 Speaker 1: this episode, I want to let you know that you 3 00:00:22,636 --> 00:00:25,916 Speaker 1: can listen to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial 4 00:00:25,956 --> 00:00:29,476 Speaker 1: of Sam Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin 5 00:00:29,556 --> 00:00:33,516 Speaker 1: Plus subscriber, and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive 6 00:00:33,516 --> 00:00:37,356 Speaker 1: access to ad free and early bingeable podcasts like Paul 7 00:00:37,436 --> 00:00:42,236 Speaker 1: McCartney's new podcast McCartney A Life and Lyrics, Malcolm Gladwell's 8 00:00:42,236 --> 00:00:46,156 Speaker 1: Revision Is History, The Happiness Lab from Doctor Lorie Santos, 9 00:00:46,636 --> 00:00:49,876 Speaker 1: and tons of other top shows from Pushkin. Sign up 10 00:00:49,876 --> 00:00:53,516 Speaker 1: an Apple Podcasts or at pushkin, dot fm, Slash Plus. 11 00:00:57,076 --> 00:01:00,276 Speaker 1: Welcome to Judging Sam, The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. 12 00:01:00,476 --> 00:01:03,996 Speaker 1: I'm Michael Lewis. Court is on a break until Thursday, 13 00:01:03,996 --> 00:01:07,516 Speaker 1: October twenty sixth, the day we expect the prosecution to 14 00:01:07,556 --> 00:01:11,276 Speaker 1: rest their case and the defense to begin there possibly 15 00:01:11,356 --> 00:01:15,316 Speaker 1: even with the beginning of Sam Bekman Fried's testimony. I'm 16 00:01:15,316 --> 00:01:19,556 Speaker 1: here with Rebecca Mermelstein, defense attorney, former prosecutor and partner 17 00:01:19,676 --> 00:01:23,236 Speaker 1: at O'melvinie and Myers, and also with Lydia Jean Cott, 18 00:01:23,276 --> 00:01:27,236 Speaker 1: our intrepid courthouse reporter. I should note we're recording this 19 00:01:27,316 --> 00:01:31,076 Speaker 1: conversation on Monday, October the twenty third Lydia Jean, I 20 00:01:31,076 --> 00:01:33,556 Speaker 1: imagine you have some questions you're dying to ask, Rebecca, 21 00:01:33,876 --> 00:01:35,916 Speaker 1: and I understand you might have some for me too. 22 00:01:36,276 --> 00:01:37,756 Speaker 1: Where do you want to start, Rebecca? 23 00:01:37,836 --> 00:01:41,556 Speaker 2: I would actually love to start with you. The prosecution 24 00:01:41,876 --> 00:01:44,756 Speaker 2: has pretty much wrapped their case, and I wonder, from 25 00:01:44,836 --> 00:01:47,196 Speaker 2: a distance from how you've been watching, what stood out 26 00:01:47,196 --> 00:01:47,396 Speaker 2: to you. 27 00:01:48,076 --> 00:01:51,476 Speaker 3: I think that what stands out is really how overwhelming 28 00:01:51,636 --> 00:01:55,276 Speaker 3: the evidence is. The prosecution has put on a very 29 00:01:55,356 --> 00:01:59,196 Speaker 3: strong case. We've talked about before how many cooperating witnesses 30 00:01:59,196 --> 00:02:03,436 Speaker 3: there are, but you don't know until they testify if 31 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:05,236 Speaker 3: they're going to be good witnesses, if they're going to 32 00:02:05,276 --> 00:02:08,236 Speaker 3: be good at explaining what happened, if they're going to 33 00:02:08,276 --> 00:02:11,116 Speaker 3: fall apart on loss examination. And we do know the 34 00:02:11,156 --> 00:02:13,476 Speaker 3: answer to that now, and I think they were strong 35 00:02:13,516 --> 00:02:16,676 Speaker 3: witnesses for the government. I think the cross examination did 36 00:02:16,716 --> 00:02:20,156 Speaker 3: not buy and large undermine the core testimony, and so 37 00:02:20,196 --> 00:02:21,516 Speaker 3: I think the government's done a good job. 38 00:02:22,436 --> 00:02:24,636 Speaker 1: How do you feel the defence is done? You're now 39 00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:26,476 Speaker 1: a defense attorney, so you can look at it through 40 00:02:26,476 --> 00:02:27,036 Speaker 1: that lens. 41 00:02:27,156 --> 00:02:29,916 Speaker 3: I am and I feel compelled then to preface it 42 00:02:29,956 --> 00:02:32,116 Speaker 3: by saying, this is a really hard case to be 43 00:02:32,196 --> 00:02:35,756 Speaker 3: the defense attorney in, and so there's only so much 44 00:02:36,036 --> 00:02:39,476 Speaker 3: they can do. I think from a distance people often 45 00:02:39,516 --> 00:02:41,116 Speaker 3: look at a trial and they look at the two 46 00:02:41,156 --> 00:02:44,236 Speaker 3: sides and you say, well, sort of, who's the better lawyer. 47 00:02:44,276 --> 00:02:47,716 Speaker 3: That's who's winning. But it's not a mock trial exercise. 48 00:02:47,796 --> 00:02:53,116 Speaker 3: The two sides don't have equal evidence and ammunition, and 49 00:02:53,356 --> 00:02:55,436 Speaker 3: the defense has to play the cards that they got dealt, 50 00:02:55,516 --> 00:02:57,996 Speaker 3: and so often the deck is very, very stacked, and 51 00:02:58,036 --> 00:03:01,516 Speaker 3: it's not really a battle of better lawyering. I don't 52 00:03:01,636 --> 00:03:04,996 Speaker 3: think they've really scored a lot of points. Were there 53 00:03:05,076 --> 00:03:07,916 Speaker 3: points that they could have scored and they haven't scored. 54 00:03:08,076 --> 00:03:11,156 Speaker 3: It's hard to know from from this distance if there's 55 00:03:11,196 --> 00:03:14,276 Speaker 3: more they might have done. But at the end of 56 00:03:14,316 --> 00:03:18,476 Speaker 3: the day, they haven't really undermined I think the core allegations. 57 00:03:18,836 --> 00:03:23,396 Speaker 3: To me, they haven't suggested that these cooperators are lying. 58 00:03:23,996 --> 00:03:25,956 Speaker 3: And if these cooperators are telling the truth, he's going 59 00:03:25,996 --> 00:03:29,036 Speaker 3: to get convicted. So I think it's not going well 60 00:03:29,156 --> 00:03:29,516 Speaker 3: for them. 61 00:03:30,316 --> 00:03:32,636 Speaker 2: One thing that stood out to me a lot about 62 00:03:32,716 --> 00:03:35,836 Speaker 2: the prosecution is the extent to which they're really telling 63 00:03:35,836 --> 00:03:38,196 Speaker 2: a story, like to the point where it feels like 64 00:03:38,236 --> 00:03:41,276 Speaker 2: a movie almost. There was one moment when Nishad saying 65 00:03:41,316 --> 00:03:43,596 Speaker 2: one of the cooperating witnesses, was on the stand and 66 00:03:43,636 --> 00:03:46,516 Speaker 2: he talked about this heated conversation he had with Sam 67 00:03:46,516 --> 00:03:50,436 Speaker 2: bankman Fried when he said he realized that Alameda had 68 00:03:50,436 --> 00:03:53,156 Speaker 2: taken money from FTX that it couldn't pay back. And 69 00:03:53,236 --> 00:03:55,556 Speaker 2: this conversation was on the balcony of this penthouse in 70 00:03:55,596 --> 00:03:59,316 Speaker 2: the Bahamas, and the prosecutors showed a picture of the balcony, 71 00:03:59,356 --> 00:04:01,516 Speaker 2: and then the picture was in the evening and they 72 00:04:01,556 --> 00:04:05,036 Speaker 2: had Nishad explain where he was standing and like where 73 00:04:05,076 --> 00:04:07,516 Speaker 2: Sam was. It didn't seem to be part of the 74 00:04:07,596 --> 00:04:10,156 Speaker 2: legal making of the case, but it feel like for 75 00:04:10,196 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 2: the screenwriters who are in the courtroom, and I think 76 00:04:12,116 --> 00:04:14,436 Speaker 2: there were some, they were just handing them a scene 77 00:04:14,516 --> 00:04:16,996 Speaker 2: on a silver platter. And I wonder what you think 78 00:04:17,036 --> 00:04:18,316 Speaker 2: about that, Rebecca. 79 00:04:18,236 --> 00:04:20,996 Speaker 3: Well, I totally agree with you. That's not a piece 80 00:04:20,996 --> 00:04:24,116 Speaker 3: of evidence that's important to the key facts of the case, 81 00:04:24,196 --> 00:04:26,076 Speaker 3: but it really does give you some of the color 82 00:04:26,596 --> 00:04:29,476 Speaker 3: about being able to think back and sort of think 83 00:04:29,516 --> 00:04:32,436 Speaker 3: about what it would have been like on this luxurious balcony, 84 00:04:32,796 --> 00:04:34,876 Speaker 3: and I agree that the prosecution has done a nice 85 00:04:34,956 --> 00:04:39,436 Speaker 3: job of bringing moments of drama to the trial. People 86 00:04:39,796 --> 00:04:41,916 Speaker 3: think criminal trials are all going to be a few 87 00:04:41,956 --> 00:04:45,556 Speaker 3: good men and big moments, got you moments, and really 88 00:04:45,636 --> 00:04:47,876 Speaker 3: actually it's often a slog of evidence that you have 89 00:04:47,916 --> 00:04:50,396 Speaker 3: to get through. But they have done a nice job 90 00:04:50,436 --> 00:04:53,276 Speaker 3: of finding those kinds of moments. One I really liked 91 00:04:53,756 --> 00:04:57,716 Speaker 3: was that the lawyer for FTX was testifying mister Son, 92 00:04:58,196 --> 00:05:00,716 Speaker 3: and he was describing a conversation that he had with 93 00:05:00,756 --> 00:05:05,316 Speaker 3: Sam bankman Fried after Apollo had it started to ask 94 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:09,116 Speaker 3: questions about the missing money, and in mister Son's recitation 95 00:05:09,396 --> 00:05:12,516 Speaker 3: of it, he says, you know, Sam asked me for explanations, 96 00:05:12,556 --> 00:05:16,076 Speaker 3: like what might we say about this? And Son's reaction was, well, like, 97 00:05:16,116 --> 00:05:17,476 Speaker 3: you could try to say this, or you can try 98 00:05:17,476 --> 00:05:20,196 Speaker 3: to say that, but these are not legitimate explanations, and 99 00:05:20,236 --> 00:05:22,036 Speaker 3: he was clear with Sam that they're not legitimate, and 100 00:05:22,036 --> 00:05:24,916 Speaker 3: Sam understood they were not legitimate. And then the prosecution 101 00:05:24,996 --> 00:05:28,316 Speaker 3: immediately played a clip of Sam Bekminfried on kind of 102 00:05:28,356 --> 00:05:33,476 Speaker 3: his post collapse press tour giving those explanations to a 103 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:37,236 Speaker 3: reporter and then turned off the tape. Circled back to 104 00:05:37,316 --> 00:05:40,196 Speaker 3: Son and said, you know, is that the fake explanation 105 00:05:40,276 --> 00:05:43,676 Speaker 3: you gave him? Essentially? You know, yes, no more questions. 106 00:05:44,876 --> 00:05:48,636 Speaker 3: Prosecutors and all lawyers are thoughtful about trying to end 107 00:05:48,756 --> 00:05:51,956 Speaker 3: on a note that's really strong. We know just about 108 00:05:51,956 --> 00:05:54,836 Speaker 3: the way people's minds work, that there's a recency and 109 00:05:54,876 --> 00:05:56,956 Speaker 3: a primacy, right the thing that happens first, that the thing 110 00:05:56,996 --> 00:05:59,316 Speaker 3: happens last, and you want to really nail those moments. 111 00:05:59,356 --> 00:06:00,276 Speaker 3: And they're doing a great job. 112 00:06:01,276 --> 00:06:04,516 Speaker 1: You know, you just answered a question I had after 113 00:06:04,836 --> 00:06:07,876 Speaker 1: it collapsed and Sam started doing all this media and 114 00:06:07,916 --> 00:06:10,676 Speaker 1: the lawyers we're saying to me like, this is just 115 00:06:10,756 --> 00:06:15,156 Speaker 1: not going to help. And I kind of thought, like, 116 00:06:15,236 --> 00:06:17,916 Speaker 1: how could he make it worse? It was so bad already, 117 00:06:18,516 --> 00:06:21,356 Speaker 1: and I wondered how that stuff would ever be used, 118 00:06:21,356 --> 00:06:23,836 Speaker 1: And this was an example like how it gets used. 119 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:25,796 Speaker 3: Yes, I think a lot of us wondered if it 120 00:06:25,796 --> 00:06:27,836 Speaker 3: would come back to bite him and predicted it would, 121 00:06:28,156 --> 00:06:28,636 Speaker 3: and it did. 122 00:06:29,796 --> 00:06:38,236 Speaker 1: Judging Sam will be right back, welcome back. What are 123 00:06:38,276 --> 00:06:41,276 Speaker 1: the arguments for and against him testifying? 124 00:06:41,716 --> 00:06:46,796 Speaker 3: Arguments against are the obvious ones. He has a right 125 00:06:46,876 --> 00:06:52,276 Speaker 3: to remain silent. People are familiar with that idea from television, 126 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:56,196 Speaker 3: from movies, and he doesn't have any burden of proof. 127 00:06:56,276 --> 00:06:58,636 Speaker 3: He doesn't have to do anything. And so what his 128 00:06:58,716 --> 00:07:01,996 Speaker 3: lawyers are presumably trying to do is poke all kinds 129 00:07:01,996 --> 00:07:04,596 Speaker 3: of little holes in the government's case to give themselves 130 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:08,116 Speaker 3: enough ammunition and closing to say, look, we don't know 131 00:07:08,196 --> 00:07:10,636 Speaker 3: exactly what happened here, but we don't have to tell you. 132 00:07:10,876 --> 00:07:14,556 Speaker 3: They fail to do their jobs. That's the story. If 133 00:07:14,596 --> 00:07:17,636 Speaker 3: he gets up and he puts on an affirmative narrative 134 00:07:17,716 --> 00:07:21,076 Speaker 3: by telling his own story, then the government gets to 135 00:07:21,116 --> 00:07:24,996 Speaker 3: poke holes in that story. And even though that doesn't 136 00:07:25,076 --> 00:07:28,476 Speaker 3: change the presumption, the government keeps its burden of having 137 00:07:28,516 --> 00:07:31,396 Speaker 3: to prove its case beyond reasonable doubt. As a practical 138 00:07:31,436 --> 00:07:34,316 Speaker 3: matter my experiences, the minute the defense puts on that 139 00:07:34,436 --> 00:07:38,796 Speaker 3: kind of real affirmative story, you lose that presumption. It 140 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:41,356 Speaker 3: becomes really like, well, which one do I like more 141 00:07:41,436 --> 00:07:43,676 Speaker 3: as between the two, And that's a very bad thing 142 00:07:43,716 --> 00:07:46,676 Speaker 3: for a defendant. And of course he's made, as you say, 143 00:07:46,716 --> 00:07:50,116 Speaker 3: a lot of public statements. The government has a sense 144 00:07:50,156 --> 00:07:52,756 Speaker 3: of what story he might try to tell, so they're 145 00:07:52,796 --> 00:07:54,316 Speaker 3: going to be armed and ready. If he tells the 146 00:07:54,316 --> 00:07:56,756 Speaker 3: story he's been telling, and if he tries to tell 147 00:07:56,796 --> 00:07:59,756 Speaker 3: a different story now, then it's a different problem, which 148 00:07:59,756 --> 00:08:02,316 Speaker 3: is he's already locked in. He's already committed to what 149 00:08:02,356 --> 00:08:05,676 Speaker 3: his explanation is in his big press tour. He can't 150 00:08:05,716 --> 00:08:08,876 Speaker 3: now offer a third explanation because the government's going to 151 00:08:08,876 --> 00:08:12,076 Speaker 3: come out after him with that too. So I think 152 00:08:12,076 --> 00:08:14,676 Speaker 3: the downside in that respect is obvious. In terms of 153 00:08:14,676 --> 00:08:17,596 Speaker 3: what the risks are to conviction. I think in a 154 00:08:17,636 --> 00:08:21,556 Speaker 3: case like this where conviction is looking very likely, the 155 00:08:21,636 --> 00:08:24,836 Speaker 3: other big risk of testifying is pissing off the judge. 156 00:08:25,356 --> 00:08:26,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I wonder, right. 157 00:08:26,756 --> 00:08:28,436 Speaker 3: And this is a judge who's been kind of cranky 158 00:08:28,436 --> 00:08:30,156 Speaker 3: with him for a while. So you don't want to 159 00:08:30,196 --> 00:08:36,236 Speaker 3: do that. If you testify and you tell a story that, 160 00:08:36,636 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 3: by virtue of its verdict, the jury essentially says it 161 00:08:39,316 --> 00:08:41,796 Speaker 3: doesn't believe. Right. If you get up and you say 162 00:08:41,876 --> 00:08:43,916 Speaker 3: I didn't know this was happening, or I knew it 163 00:08:43,956 --> 00:08:46,516 Speaker 3: but I didn't understand it, or I thought it was okay, 164 00:08:47,076 --> 00:08:49,676 Speaker 3: and the jury convicts you anyway, then the jury has 165 00:08:50,196 --> 00:08:53,196 Speaker 3: more or less said we think you were lying, and 166 00:08:53,236 --> 00:08:56,316 Speaker 3: there are specific enhancements that's sentencing for having done that 167 00:08:57,036 --> 00:08:59,356 Speaker 3: and more than that, you really then have a judge 168 00:08:59,356 --> 00:09:04,796 Speaker 3: who says, sitting here a year later, after all of this, 169 00:09:04,956 --> 00:09:08,556 Speaker 3: you're still not sorry. You still haven't accepted responsibility, and 170 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:11,196 Speaker 3: that's going to put you really in a very marked difference, 171 00:09:11,236 --> 00:09:13,996 Speaker 3: I think, to all these cooperators in this case, because 172 00:09:14,036 --> 00:09:16,876 Speaker 3: one thing that's really noticeable about these guys is how 173 00:09:16,956 --> 00:09:19,716 Speaker 3: fast they started cooperating with the government, right, how quickly 174 00:09:19,756 --> 00:09:22,516 Speaker 3: they came in and said, we did it, it was wrong, 175 00:09:22,596 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 3: we knew it was wrong. And how remorseful they've been 176 00:09:25,436 --> 00:09:28,116 Speaker 3: on the stand. I think how much they've owned that 177 00:09:28,196 --> 00:09:29,836 Speaker 3: they were wrong and that they knew it was wrong. 178 00:09:29,996 --> 00:09:32,716 Speaker 3: Not all cooperators are quite as good at that, And 179 00:09:32,756 --> 00:09:35,076 Speaker 3: so you have everyone else saying we knew this was 180 00:09:35,156 --> 00:09:37,996 Speaker 3: no good all along, We're really sorry, and the minute 181 00:09:38,316 --> 00:09:41,556 Speaker 3: the wall came tumbling down, we tried to accept responsibility. 182 00:09:42,116 --> 00:09:45,116 Speaker 3: And here you have Sam being a holdout, fighting and 183 00:09:45,156 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 3: fighting and fighting against it, and I think you might 184 00:09:47,196 --> 00:09:50,836 Speaker 3: see real additional sentencing exposure from doing it. So big risk. 185 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:54,996 Speaker 3: What's the upside. It's a hail Mary, right, it's a 186 00:09:54,996 --> 00:09:57,756 Speaker 3: hail Mary. Things are not going well. I think if 187 00:09:57,796 --> 00:10:01,076 Speaker 3: you asked one hundred white collar lawyers one hundred are 188 00:10:01,116 --> 00:10:04,276 Speaker 3: going to tell you he's going to get convicted, and 189 00:10:04,316 --> 00:10:06,036 Speaker 3: what can you do? At this point the government's proof 190 00:10:06,116 --> 00:10:07,756 Speaker 3: is in. There's not much you can do left to 191 00:10:07,796 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 3: undermine it. The defense has said they may need a 192 00:10:09,716 --> 00:10:12,476 Speaker 3: week for their case, so maybe there's evidence. I'm not predicting. 193 00:10:12,836 --> 00:10:15,396 Speaker 3: There may be things coming, But the hail mary is 194 00:10:15,476 --> 00:10:19,316 Speaker 3: you put him on the stand. You either get the 195 00:10:19,396 --> 00:10:22,356 Speaker 3: jury to believe that he was naive enough or not 196 00:10:22,356 --> 00:10:26,396 Speaker 3: paying attention enough or sympathetic enough to not have known 197 00:10:26,436 --> 00:10:29,236 Speaker 3: what was going on. I don't think that's going to 198 00:10:29,236 --> 00:10:32,756 Speaker 3: be a likely outcome for him. You'll know from knowing 199 00:10:32,836 --> 00:10:36,756 Speaker 3: him better, Michael, what he's going to seem like on 200 00:10:36,796 --> 00:10:38,996 Speaker 3: the stand. But I'm not sure he's going to do 201 00:10:39,076 --> 00:10:41,716 Speaker 3: himself any favors there either. But it's a hail mary 202 00:10:41,756 --> 00:10:43,156 Speaker 3: because there's nothing left to do about that. 203 00:10:44,356 --> 00:10:46,996 Speaker 1: What do you imagine the effect on his sentence could 204 00:10:46,996 --> 00:10:50,076 Speaker 1: be if he gets up and he pisses off the judge. 205 00:10:50,356 --> 00:10:53,716 Speaker 3: It's really hard to quantify. So the Sentence and Guidelines 206 00:10:53,836 --> 00:10:58,516 Speaker 3: are a very long and complicated book that provides judges 207 00:10:58,516 --> 00:11:02,196 Speaker 3: with recommended ranges for sentences for every kind of case. 208 00:11:02,276 --> 00:11:06,596 Speaker 3: And so for every kind of crime there's a base number, 209 00:11:06,636 --> 00:11:09,676 Speaker 3: and then there are pluses and minuses. If you sell 210 00:11:09,756 --> 00:11:12,236 Speaker 3: drugs and you had a gun, that's a plus factor. 211 00:11:12,276 --> 00:11:14,596 Speaker 3: If you only played a small role, that's a minus factor. 212 00:11:14,676 --> 00:11:17,676 Speaker 3: And it's an algorithm, it pops out a number, and 213 00:11:17,716 --> 00:11:19,876 Speaker 3: then there's a whole part of the algorithm that relates 214 00:11:19,916 --> 00:11:23,196 Speaker 3: to people's prior criminal history, which won't be relevant here. 215 00:11:23,396 --> 00:11:25,756 Speaker 3: So as a technical matter, you get a two point 216 00:11:25,836 --> 00:11:30,196 Speaker 3: enhancement on that algorithm for having lied. And how much 217 00:11:30,196 --> 00:11:33,036 Speaker 3: of a bump that is in mathematical months depends on 218 00:11:33,076 --> 00:11:36,236 Speaker 3: where you started in the analysis. I think because of 219 00:11:36,236 --> 00:11:39,756 Speaker 3: the loss amount here, the recommended sentence is going to 220 00:11:39,756 --> 00:11:42,116 Speaker 3: be off the charts anyway, so it won't actually move 221 00:11:42,156 --> 00:11:44,716 Speaker 3: the needle in terms of what the recommendation is. How 222 00:11:44,756 --> 00:11:47,836 Speaker 3: much does it move the needle for the judge, it's 223 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:51,236 Speaker 3: really hard to say. Very occasionally judges in imposing sentence 224 00:11:51,276 --> 00:11:53,356 Speaker 3: will say, I was going to do acts, but because 225 00:11:53,396 --> 00:11:55,556 Speaker 3: of this, I'm going to do Why you might hear 226 00:11:55,596 --> 00:11:59,396 Speaker 3: that here, you might not, you know, twelve to twenty 227 00:11:59,396 --> 00:12:01,636 Speaker 3: four months. I'm making it up. No one really needs, 228 00:12:01,676 --> 00:12:02,596 Speaker 3: but that's my guess. 229 00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:06,516 Speaker 1: That's what you think you would add, Yeah, but on 230 00:12:06,596 --> 00:12:07,996 Speaker 1: top of what thirty years? 231 00:12:08,516 --> 00:12:11,476 Speaker 3: It is so hard to predict what Judge Kaplin is 232 00:12:11,476 --> 00:12:14,436 Speaker 3: going to do here. I think the recommended sentence is 233 00:12:14,476 --> 00:12:16,596 Speaker 3: going to be essentially life because the loss a mounts 234 00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:19,676 Speaker 3: so high. That's not useful to anyone, right. I think 235 00:12:19,716 --> 00:12:22,316 Speaker 3: it's going to be between ten and twenty five years. 236 00:12:22,836 --> 00:12:25,156 Speaker 1: Huh, You've been right about a lot so far. 237 00:12:25,316 --> 00:12:27,036 Speaker 3: Well, this one's very hard to predict. I've been wrong 238 00:12:27,036 --> 00:12:30,436 Speaker 3: about sentencing many times in my career, Michael. 239 00:12:30,476 --> 00:12:33,596 Speaker 2: I'm curious, as someone who has spent time with Sam Magmanfried, 240 00:12:33,716 --> 00:12:35,476 Speaker 2: what do you think we could expect if he were 241 00:12:35,596 --> 00:12:36,316 Speaker 2: to take the stand. 242 00:12:38,476 --> 00:12:40,996 Speaker 1: You know, he's expected to take the stand. I would 243 00:12:41,036 --> 00:12:45,356 Speaker 1: not be surprised if he changes his mind. I think 244 00:12:45,396 --> 00:12:49,876 Speaker 1: his lawyers think that the likely effect of taking the 245 00:12:49,916 --> 00:12:53,796 Speaker 1: stand is not twelve to twenty four months, but a 246 00:12:53,836 --> 00:12:56,316 Speaker 1: lot more. I think they think the judge is just 247 00:12:56,956 --> 00:13:00,356 Speaker 1: waiting to pounce on that. So he's going to be 248 00:13:00,396 --> 00:13:03,276 Speaker 1: sitting there thinking am I going to get fifteen years? 249 00:13:03,276 --> 00:13:05,636 Speaker 1: Am I going to get forty years? I think they 250 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:08,476 Speaker 1: feared that kind of effect. So there's a part of 251 00:13:08,516 --> 00:13:10,236 Speaker 1: me that thinks if as a betting man, and you 252 00:13:10,276 --> 00:13:12,196 Speaker 1: gave me the odds right now, and the odds are 253 00:13:12,196 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 1: probably twenty to one that he's going to testify. I 254 00:13:15,396 --> 00:13:18,476 Speaker 1: take those if he takes the stand. You know, it's 255 00:13:18,476 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 1: tricky because if you look at the whole case, I mean, 256 00:13:22,956 --> 00:13:26,876 Speaker 1: nobody disputes like what they agreed all agreed was true 257 00:13:27,396 --> 00:13:29,556 Speaker 1: was so damning just to start with, right, all his 258 00:13:29,636 --> 00:13:32,796 Speaker 1: money was never in FTX. It started out in Alameda, 259 00:13:32,996 --> 00:13:34,676 Speaker 1: so the funds were mixed all the way back in 260 00:13:34,676 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. The argument's all about when in state of mind. 261 00:13:40,076 --> 00:13:43,836 Speaker 1: So it seems that the prosecutors and their witnesses have 262 00:13:43,996 --> 00:13:47,116 Speaker 1: sort of agreed that people really started to wake up 263 00:13:47,116 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 1: to this as a big risk in June when the 264 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:52,956 Speaker 1: crypto markets collapsing, And so I see, Sam is going 265 00:13:52,996 --> 00:13:55,676 Speaker 1: to try to tell a story about how out of 266 00:13:55,756 --> 00:13:59,276 Speaker 1: touch he was from June until November, and it's not 267 00:13:59,316 --> 00:14:01,716 Speaker 1: going to be believable because he's got all these other 268 00:14:01,756 --> 00:14:04,756 Speaker 1: people saying we told him. There are a couple things 269 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:07,356 Speaker 1: I've learned that have been interesting to me. One was 270 00:14:08,116 --> 00:14:10,876 Speaker 1: the way he active avoided the meetings to discuss the 271 00:14:10,916 --> 00:14:15,316 Speaker 1: subject that came up. Nobody made a huge deal about it. 272 00:14:15,356 --> 00:14:19,956 Speaker 1: But that was interesting to me, and that it was 273 00:14:20,076 --> 00:14:24,236 Speaker 1: almost like a willful act. I mean, if someone tells 274 00:14:24,276 --> 00:14:27,116 Speaker 1: you that there's a bug and it looks like we're 275 00:14:27,156 --> 00:14:29,996 Speaker 1: short sixteen billion dollars, but maybe actually know that we're 276 00:14:30,036 --> 00:14:32,956 Speaker 1: short less than that. You're in that meeting, right, You 277 00:14:32,956 --> 00:14:36,796 Speaker 1: don't avoid that. So he just has too much to 278 00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:41,236 Speaker 1: explain how he will seem. I bet the jury after 279 00:14:41,276 --> 00:14:44,116 Speaker 1: they listened to him for a couple of days, it's 280 00:14:44,116 --> 00:14:46,796 Speaker 1: not going to change their decision, but it's going to 281 00:14:46,836 --> 00:14:49,516 Speaker 1: make them feel a little differently about it. They'll see 282 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:52,436 Speaker 1: a person I don't see how they do anything but 283 00:14:52,476 --> 00:14:54,796 Speaker 1: convict him, but it will change the tone of the 284 00:14:54,836 --> 00:14:58,716 Speaker 1: conversation a bit. The whole thing's been riveting to me, Rebecca, 285 00:14:58,356 --> 00:15:02,596 Speaker 1: I it's been interesting to me to watch the way 286 00:15:02,636 --> 00:15:06,556 Speaker 1: a lawyer tells a story it's and also the way 287 00:15:06,956 --> 00:15:11,196 Speaker 1: the court constrains the story it can be told. Let's 288 00:15:11,236 --> 00:15:14,476 Speaker 1: say all the money's actually there, and after a sentenced 289 00:15:14,556 --> 00:15:16,236 Speaker 1: John Ray says, oh, we found it all. It was 290 00:15:16,236 --> 00:15:20,636 Speaker 1: all just in these weird accounts in Asia or or 291 00:15:21,316 --> 00:15:23,476 Speaker 1: the things he bought are worth way more. The customers 292 00:15:23,516 --> 00:15:27,076 Speaker 1: can get all their money back now that actually doesn't 293 00:15:27,116 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 1: affect the legal outcome, right, nobody cares. Nobody cares. However, 294 00:15:33,756 --> 00:15:37,356 Speaker 1: people when you tell the story story, people care. That's interesting. 295 00:15:37,556 --> 00:15:40,756 Speaker 1: So it's not just all stolen and gone. It's there, 296 00:15:41,156 --> 00:15:44,156 Speaker 1: but that you can't get that in the courtroom. 297 00:15:44,676 --> 00:15:47,476 Speaker 3: I think you'll hear prosecutors say all the time thin 298 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:50,756 Speaker 3: to win, and what they mean by that is, don't 299 00:15:51,076 --> 00:15:54,076 Speaker 3: take on problems you don't have to take on, don't 300 00:15:54,156 --> 00:15:56,876 Speaker 3: prove more than you have to, don't open the door 301 00:15:56,916 --> 00:15:58,956 Speaker 3: to some side, show that's going to be a distraction 302 00:15:59,076 --> 00:16:01,636 Speaker 3: and confuse the jury. And this definitely feels to me 303 00:16:01,996 --> 00:16:04,476 Speaker 3: like it's in that zone. Who cares, Right, it's still 304 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:06,636 Speaker 3: a crime either way. Lots of the money went where 305 00:16:06,636 --> 00:16:10,476 Speaker 3: it wasn't supposed to. Don't sweat the details. Maybe we'll 306 00:16:10,476 --> 00:16:13,276 Speaker 3: find out the bankruptcy could be relevant at sentencing, right, 307 00:16:13,316 --> 00:16:15,796 Speaker 3: It will be interesting to see if at sentencing, assuming 308 00:16:15,796 --> 00:16:19,276 Speaker 3: there's a conviction, I imagine you'll see an argument which is, look, 309 00:16:19,316 --> 00:16:21,116 Speaker 3: this was a huge mistake, but at the end of 310 00:16:21,156 --> 00:16:24,116 Speaker 3: the day, everybody got paid back. Maybe there was. You know, 311 00:16:24,236 --> 00:16:25,756 Speaker 3: Sam will say I always thought it was going to 312 00:16:25,796 --> 00:16:27,916 Speaker 3: work out. The prosecution will say he got really lucky 313 00:16:27,916 --> 00:16:30,156 Speaker 3: with this completely other thing that he couldn't have predicted 314 00:16:30,236 --> 00:16:32,476 Speaker 3: was going to save him. But bottom line, sort of 315 00:16:32,476 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 3: everyone got their money back, and so that should be 316 00:16:34,916 --> 00:16:37,156 Speaker 3: taken into account. I expect you'll see that argument. 317 00:16:38,076 --> 00:16:40,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it doesn't seem like the judge would be 318 00:16:40,516 --> 00:16:42,756 Speaker 2: that receptive to that argument. 319 00:16:43,356 --> 00:16:44,116 Speaker 3: I don't think so. 320 00:16:44,276 --> 00:16:44,516 Speaker 1: Yeah. 321 00:16:44,596 --> 00:16:46,996 Speaker 3: I think the judge will say, you got lucky, and 322 00:16:47,036 --> 00:16:49,156 Speaker 3: that's great, and I'm glad people got their money back, 323 00:16:49,196 --> 00:16:52,316 Speaker 3: But what you did, right, had the risk of losing 324 00:16:52,396 --> 00:16:55,076 Speaker 3: everyone's money, and you did it for your own selfish purposes. 325 00:16:55,076 --> 00:16:57,356 Speaker 3: It didn't care, right. 326 00:16:57,956 --> 00:17:00,436 Speaker 1: I got a question Rebecca that I it's just been 327 00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:01,836 Speaker 1: flicked around in the back of my mind. So as 328 00:17:01,836 --> 00:17:04,596 Speaker 1: all as started, what does it mean to prove intent? 329 00:17:05,596 --> 00:17:09,756 Speaker 1: Intent to what? Intent to misappropriate the funds? 330 00:17:10,276 --> 00:17:10,356 Speaker 2: Is? 331 00:17:10,876 --> 00:17:12,756 Speaker 1: What are they What intent do they have to prove? 332 00:17:12,916 --> 00:17:16,236 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's an intent to defraud under the statute. 333 00:17:16,556 --> 00:17:20,116 Speaker 3: But I think you're right that here it's really an 334 00:17:20,156 --> 00:17:25,156 Speaker 3: intent to misappropriate the funds because well, I'm certain you'll 335 00:17:25,156 --> 00:17:27,556 Speaker 3: see this in the jury instructions. A standard instruction in 336 00:17:27,596 --> 00:17:29,196 Speaker 3: a case like this is going to be that it 337 00:17:29,236 --> 00:17:32,756 Speaker 3: is not a defense if the defendant believed it would 338 00:17:32,836 --> 00:17:36,796 Speaker 3: all work out in the end. Right. So if you 339 00:17:36,996 --> 00:17:39,196 Speaker 3: work in a small company and you take money out 340 00:17:39,196 --> 00:17:41,676 Speaker 3: of petty cash to pay your rent, but you know 341 00:17:41,716 --> 00:17:43,276 Speaker 3: you're going to be able to pay it back, right, 342 00:17:43,316 --> 00:17:45,796 Speaker 3: that's still stealing and that is going to be the 343 00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:47,796 Speaker 3: instruction you're going to get. I would expect in this case, 344 00:17:47,876 --> 00:17:50,196 Speaker 3: it doesn't really matter if Sam thought he could work 345 00:17:50,236 --> 00:17:52,156 Speaker 3: it out in the end, as long as what he 346 00:17:52,196 --> 00:17:55,076 Speaker 3: was doing was taking customer money that he wasn't authorized 347 00:17:55,116 --> 00:17:55,396 Speaker 3: to take. 348 00:17:55,996 --> 00:17:56,516 Speaker 1: Gotcha. 349 00:17:56,676 --> 00:18:00,076 Speaker 2: So, best case scenario, what could Sam say on the 350 00:18:00,196 --> 00:18:02,236 Speaker 2: stand that would help him. 351 00:18:02,636 --> 00:18:04,676 Speaker 3: I'm not optimistic there's anything he could stay on the 352 00:18:04,676 --> 00:18:08,196 Speaker 3: stand that would help him. I think that in a 353 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:14,156 Speaker 3: ideal world that is really hypothetical. A defendant could be 354 00:18:14,236 --> 00:18:18,636 Speaker 3: so sympathetic that they could encourage a jury to nullify right. 355 00:18:18,716 --> 00:18:21,996 Speaker 3: So in our system we allowed jury nullification. It's a 356 00:18:22,076 --> 00:18:25,236 Speaker 3: very strange concept. We don't tell the jury they have 357 00:18:25,316 --> 00:18:27,036 Speaker 3: the right to do this. In fact, if they asked, 358 00:18:27,076 --> 00:18:28,836 Speaker 3: they would be told that they could not do this. 359 00:18:28,876 --> 00:18:31,716 Speaker 3: They're instructed they must follow the law, that it is 360 00:18:31,756 --> 00:18:34,076 Speaker 3: not for them right punishments for the judge, and they 361 00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:37,476 Speaker 3: have to follow the law. But if a jury nullifies, 362 00:18:37,516 --> 00:18:39,836 Speaker 3: if after the fact you discover that the jury got 363 00:18:39,876 --> 00:18:42,756 Speaker 3: in the room and said, oh, yeah, that guy totally 364 00:18:42,756 --> 00:18:44,996 Speaker 3: did it. But we really don't think this should be 365 00:18:44,996 --> 00:18:47,676 Speaker 3: even be a crime, right, we think marijuana should be legal, 366 00:18:47,716 --> 00:18:50,796 Speaker 3: So we're not going to convict him. That there's no 367 00:18:50,956 --> 00:18:53,716 Speaker 3: recourse for the government. That's it double jeopardy and the 368 00:18:53,796 --> 00:18:56,996 Speaker 3: case is over. So you could imagine a defendant, and 369 00:18:57,036 --> 00:18:58,836 Speaker 3: I don't think this is a good case for that. 370 00:18:59,316 --> 00:19:02,316 Speaker 3: You can imagine a defendant who was so sympathetic, so young, 371 00:19:02,516 --> 00:19:06,116 Speaker 3: so naive, so compelling, that even though the jury really 372 00:19:06,156 --> 00:19:07,796 Speaker 3: thought they had done it, the jury didn't want to 373 00:19:07,796 --> 00:19:10,196 Speaker 3: convict them. Is that gonn happen here? I don't think so, 374 00:19:10,276 --> 00:19:12,476 Speaker 3: and I'm not sure he has the right personality for that. 375 00:19:13,236 --> 00:19:15,556 Speaker 3: But best case scenario, a defendant could hope for that, 376 00:19:15,996 --> 00:19:18,596 Speaker 3: And so if I were his lawyer, I would tell 377 00:19:18,676 --> 00:19:22,436 Speaker 3: him not to testify. I think I would understand why 378 00:19:22,436 --> 00:19:24,436 Speaker 3: someone might feel it was the only alternative. But I 379 00:19:24,436 --> 00:19:26,516 Speaker 3: don't think he's going to help himself. And there's so 380 00:19:26,636 --> 00:19:28,716 Speaker 3: much to confront him with. He's made so many public 381 00:19:28,756 --> 00:19:31,356 Speaker 3: statements that I think it would be a mistake, and 382 00:19:31,436 --> 00:19:34,836 Speaker 3: I don't think he's going to because no one knows. 383 00:19:35,036 --> 00:19:38,156 Speaker 3: But I think that he has learned his lesson now 384 00:19:38,236 --> 00:19:40,116 Speaker 3: that he has seen at the trial the way in 385 00:19:40,156 --> 00:19:43,316 Speaker 3: which the government has used his words against him, and 386 00:19:43,396 --> 00:19:46,876 Speaker 3: he's going to decide to sit quietly. But we'll see. 387 00:19:47,236 --> 00:19:50,036 Speaker 2: If he doesn't testify, what will happen? What will the 388 00:19:50,076 --> 00:19:50,556 Speaker 2: defense do? 389 00:19:51,556 --> 00:19:54,316 Speaker 3: They may have other witnesses they've suggested that they do. 390 00:19:54,436 --> 00:19:56,676 Speaker 3: Many of their experts have been precluded, so I don't 391 00:19:56,756 --> 00:19:59,556 Speaker 3: know who's left, but you can imagine them calling a 392 00:19:59,556 --> 00:20:02,476 Speaker 3: few small witnesses or nothing. They'll do nothing. They could 393 00:20:02,476 --> 00:20:05,276 Speaker 3: offer some documentary evidence if they wanted to, but they 394 00:20:05,276 --> 00:20:06,476 Speaker 3: could have a very small. 395 00:20:06,196 --> 00:20:15,996 Speaker 1: Case stick around. Judging Sam, we'll be right back, Welcome back. 396 00:20:16,276 --> 00:20:17,916 Speaker 2: Now that your book's been out for a while, has 397 00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:21,036 Speaker 2: anyone any characters in the book reached out about either 398 00:20:21,116 --> 00:20:22,956 Speaker 2: what they're thinking about the trial or the book. 399 00:20:23,636 --> 00:20:28,156 Speaker 1: Lots at least ten FTX people, most of them like 400 00:20:28,236 --> 00:20:33,476 Speaker 1: Zaane Tacket or Ramnik Aora or pretty main characters in 401 00:20:33,516 --> 00:20:37,036 Speaker 1: the book have reached out to say that it captured 402 00:20:37,076 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 1: the feel of their experience, and I think people like 403 00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:43,916 Speaker 1: being reminded of why they got charmed into the situation 404 00:20:44,036 --> 00:20:46,316 Speaker 1: in the first place. Some of these people are still 405 00:20:46,356 --> 00:20:48,596 Speaker 1: as furious as hell at Sam and most of the 406 00:20:48,676 --> 00:20:52,196 Speaker 1: employees FTX are furious because they went down with him. 407 00:20:52,196 --> 00:20:55,516 Speaker 1: You know, they had all their life savings on the exchange. 408 00:20:55,716 --> 00:20:57,356 Speaker 1: So that's how they feel. They feel like I imagine 409 00:20:57,396 --> 00:20:59,436 Speaker 1: the jury will feel if he gets up and talks. 410 00:21:00,236 --> 00:21:04,796 Speaker 1: They're furious it happened. They're angry with his decision, but 411 00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:08,076 Speaker 1: towards him. Mainly they feel just sadness, a kind of 412 00:21:08,196 --> 00:21:11,796 Speaker 1: sadness slash pity. It's been kind of interesting. The stuff 413 00:21:11,796 --> 00:21:15,836 Speaker 1: in the trial has been their details that have been 414 00:21:15,916 --> 00:21:18,836 Speaker 1: riveting to me. You listened to it in one way, Rebecca, 415 00:21:18,876 --> 00:21:21,316 Speaker 1: I listened to it in another. I'm not actually paying 416 00:21:21,356 --> 00:21:23,036 Speaker 1: a whole lot of attention to is he going to 417 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:24,836 Speaker 1: be convicted or e quitted? Because I just assumed it 418 00:21:24,916 --> 00:21:26,876 Speaker 1: was done when it started almost. I mean, the whole 419 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:28,636 Speaker 1: thing was a mess from the start. You should never 420 00:21:28,676 --> 00:21:31,716 Speaker 1: have all the funds in Alameda. Put that to one 421 00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:37,036 Speaker 1: side for a second. All the problems are so concentrated 422 00:21:37,116 --> 00:21:39,636 Speaker 1: in such a short period of time. There are a 423 00:21:39,676 --> 00:21:42,836 Speaker 1: couple of exceptions, but mostly they're talking about the period 424 00:21:42,876 --> 00:21:47,236 Speaker 1: from June to November of last year, and watching them 425 00:21:47,316 --> 00:21:49,316 Speaker 1: talk about it and talk about how they felt about 426 00:21:49,316 --> 00:21:51,676 Speaker 1: it is so interesting to me because I was with 427 00:21:51,796 --> 00:21:59,596 Speaker 1: them and there was no surface indication that anything had 428 00:21:59,676 --> 00:22:04,156 Speaker 1: changed in their mind except Nishad had started to talk 429 00:22:04,156 --> 00:22:07,236 Speaker 1: about we shouldn't spend all this money. That was the 430 00:22:07,276 --> 00:22:09,516 Speaker 1: only thing I noticed, and I was in a viewing 431 00:22:10,396 --> 00:22:12,836 Speaker 1: all of them. I'm not Gary because Gary didn't speak. 432 00:22:13,796 --> 00:22:15,796 Speaker 1: If it's true the story they're telling, and I don't 433 00:22:15,836 --> 00:22:19,596 Speaker 1: have any reasons to doubt the veracity of it, how 434 00:22:20,036 --> 00:22:23,756 Speaker 1: good they were at not seeming like anything had really changed. 435 00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:27,596 Speaker 1: And I think the truth is that part of their 436 00:22:27,636 --> 00:22:30,036 Speaker 1: brains didn't want to believe that anything had really changed, 437 00:22:30,356 --> 00:22:31,756 Speaker 1: the part of their brains thought this is all going 438 00:22:31,836 --> 00:22:33,316 Speaker 1: to work out, because they'd been through this once with 439 00:22:33,356 --> 00:22:37,356 Speaker 1: Sam before, you know, back in twenty eighteen. They'd watched 440 00:22:37,436 --> 00:22:41,876 Speaker 1: this chaos ensue, money be lost, everybody calling him a criminal, 441 00:22:41,956 --> 00:22:44,956 Speaker 1: and then they find the money. You know, I think 442 00:22:44,956 --> 00:22:47,596 Speaker 1: they thought I kind of thought Sam had magical powers. 443 00:22:47,996 --> 00:22:52,076 Speaker 2: How did it feel for you to be learning that 444 00:22:52,196 --> 00:22:56,076 Speaker 2: they It seems like knew this thing and were acting 445 00:22:56,116 --> 00:22:57,916 Speaker 2: like it wasn't happening while you were there. 446 00:22:58,316 --> 00:23:02,116 Speaker 1: So I didn't know what Sam knew, what Sam didn't know, 447 00:23:02,156 --> 00:23:04,316 Speaker 1: I knew who what Sam told people he knew and 448 00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:07,196 Speaker 1: didn't know. A couple things surprised me. The first thing, 449 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:08,996 Speaker 1: that really is it surprised me that not all of 450 00:23:08,996 --> 00:23:11,916 Speaker 1: them knew that, that Nishah doesn't know that till September. 451 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:17,596 Speaker 1: It surprised me that Caroline was so insistent about her 452 00:23:17,636 --> 00:23:23,196 Speaker 1: interactions with Sam because they were busted up. In Sam's telling, 453 00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:27,036 Speaker 1: they weren't talking very much because none of this stuff 454 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:31,836 Speaker 1: comes up in her memos to him. So how did 455 00:23:31,876 --> 00:23:34,556 Speaker 1: I feel about it? It tilted my calculation just a 456 00:23:34,596 --> 00:23:38,596 Speaker 1: bit towards it's really not likely that he didn't know anything. 457 00:23:39,076 --> 00:23:42,236 Speaker 1: And this shacker was like be willful, not wanting to 458 00:23:42,236 --> 00:23:44,556 Speaker 1: be at the meetings, that kind of stuff. That was 459 00:23:44,596 --> 00:23:47,996 Speaker 1: sort of a tell I have all kinds of questions 460 00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:51,636 Speaker 1: about the decisions he made. The questions that are all right. 461 00:23:51,676 --> 00:23:54,076 Speaker 1: So this thing blows up in May or June that 462 00:23:54,116 --> 00:23:56,636 Speaker 1: the crypto markets collapse and these people who are lending 463 00:23:56,676 --> 00:23:59,436 Speaker 1: US crypto demand their eight billion dollars back, and Sam 464 00:23:59,476 --> 00:24:01,516 Speaker 1: makes the decision to give it to him, and what 465 00:24:01,556 --> 00:24:04,596 Speaker 1: he's given to him is an effect customer money. Why 466 00:24:04,636 --> 00:24:06,716 Speaker 1: didn't you just let it go? Like it's just a 467 00:24:06,836 --> 00:24:11,036 Speaker 1: crazy decision, It doesn't matter the lawsuit, But I would 468 00:24:11,076 --> 00:24:14,036 Speaker 1: like to poke and prod him on that that is 469 00:24:14,076 --> 00:24:16,516 Speaker 1: the active decision. There is a moment where he could 470 00:24:16,516 --> 00:24:18,716 Speaker 1: have just said, we're stiffing these lenders and Alan Mete 471 00:24:18,756 --> 00:24:23,196 Speaker 1: his bankrupt. But FTX is fine. And I mean, I 472 00:24:23,236 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 1: have theories about it's sort of the psychology of it. 473 00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:29,356 Speaker 1: My theory is that it is his identity was all 474 00:24:29,396 --> 00:24:33,636 Speaker 1: bound up in being this great trader and it just 475 00:24:34,716 --> 00:24:37,356 Speaker 1: cut to who he was to let that thing go, 476 00:24:37,956 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 1: and he just couldn't imagine the shift in his perception, 477 00:24:43,396 --> 00:24:44,556 Speaker 1: the perception of him. 478 00:24:44,836 --> 00:24:47,796 Speaker 3: I think it's interesting that you say that it was 479 00:24:48,236 --> 00:24:52,036 Speaker 3: his identity was bound up in being the successful trader 480 00:24:52,036 --> 00:24:55,076 Speaker 3: and that's why he made the decision, because it also 481 00:24:55,156 --> 00:24:59,236 Speaker 3: goes to why he went to trial. Right, Why didn't 482 00:24:59,276 --> 00:25:01,516 Speaker 3: he look for a plan. Now we don't know that 483 00:25:01,556 --> 00:25:03,556 Speaker 3: he didn't, but it sounds like there really were never 484 00:25:03,596 --> 00:25:06,356 Speaker 3: any serious plane negotiations. Right, he was never interested. It 485 00:25:06,396 --> 00:25:08,436 Speaker 3: was clear there was going to be a trial. Wh 486 00:25:09,236 --> 00:25:12,916 Speaker 3: he knew what happened, right, he knew what Caroline and 487 00:25:12,996 --> 00:25:17,236 Speaker 3: Nishad and Gary were able to say, and in advance 488 00:25:17,276 --> 00:25:19,476 Speaker 3: of the trial, he was given all of the they're 489 00:25:19,516 --> 00:25:21,876 Speaker 3: called three to zero two's right, the reports the FBI 490 00:25:21,956 --> 00:25:23,836 Speaker 3: wrote of the interviews with them, he knew what they 491 00:25:23,836 --> 00:25:26,756 Speaker 3: were in fact going to say, but he still went 492 00:25:26,796 --> 00:25:28,516 Speaker 3: to trial. And I think when people do that, it's 493 00:25:28,516 --> 00:25:34,036 Speaker 3: often this inability to accept the mantle of failure, of 494 00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:37,836 Speaker 3: embarrassment of admitting that you knew. It's even in the 495 00:25:37,836 --> 00:25:39,316 Speaker 3: face of all that, it's easier to be able to 496 00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:41,036 Speaker 3: maintain to yourself that it's not true. 497 00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:45,756 Speaker 1: In his case, if you look over his life, he 498 00:25:46,396 --> 00:25:49,116 Speaker 1: preserves a kind of romantic notion of himself in a 499 00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:54,316 Speaker 1: totally socially isolated situation, and that romantic notion of himself 500 00:25:54,436 --> 00:25:58,636 Speaker 1: isn't paid off, isn't confirmed until he collides with wall Street, 501 00:25:58,916 --> 00:26:01,556 Speaker 1: and wall Street says, yes, you're absolutely right, you're a genius, 502 00:26:03,196 --> 00:26:06,156 Speaker 1: that you're a genius at this this kind of decision making, 503 00:26:06,756 --> 00:26:09,036 Speaker 1: and Alimeda was home to that kind of decision making. 504 00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:12,636 Speaker 1: FTX wasn't I mean, FTX was just a dumb exchange. 505 00:26:13,596 --> 00:26:17,676 Speaker 1: It was the risk taking was all in Alameda, and 506 00:26:18,636 --> 00:26:20,436 Speaker 1: it was such a threat to who he was to 507 00:26:20,476 --> 00:26:21,436 Speaker 1: have that thing go down. 508 00:26:22,356 --> 00:26:24,356 Speaker 3: This was fun, This was fun. I have a homework 509 00:26:24,356 --> 00:26:28,876 Speaker 3: assignment for LJ. What's my assignment? Okay, So it's a 510 00:26:28,956 --> 00:26:32,876 Speaker 3: maybe an urban legend among trial lawyers, but everyone says 511 00:26:32,996 --> 00:26:34,556 Speaker 3: that if you look at the jury when they come 512 00:26:34,596 --> 00:26:36,476 Speaker 3: in with their verdicts, because what'll happen is, at some 513 00:26:36,516 --> 00:26:38,276 Speaker 3: point the judge is going to say we have a note, 514 00:26:38,356 --> 00:26:39,556 Speaker 3: or he's going to say we have a verdict. They're 515 00:26:39,556 --> 00:26:42,036 Speaker 3: going to bring the jury in and there's someone's gonna 516 00:26:42,036 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 3: be the four person. They're gonna have an envelope in it, 517 00:26:44,116 --> 00:26:46,076 Speaker 3: and it's very dramatic, right, They're going to pass it 518 00:26:46,116 --> 00:26:48,436 Speaker 3: to the judge. He's going to quietly open it, he's 519 00:26:48,476 --> 00:26:50,716 Speaker 3: going to look down, he's going to read it. Everyone's 520 00:26:50,756 --> 00:26:52,596 Speaker 3: looking at his face and he gets to know what 521 00:26:52,636 --> 00:26:54,996 Speaker 3: the verdict is before everyone else. Then he passes it 522 00:26:55,036 --> 00:26:58,036 Speaker 3: back to the to the juror, and the juror stands 523 00:26:58,076 --> 00:27:00,116 Speaker 3: up and the judge's deputy will say, as to count one, 524 00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:02,236 Speaker 3: how do you find and they'll go through each of 525 00:27:02,236 --> 00:27:05,716 Speaker 3: the counts. Everyone says that if you watch the jurors 526 00:27:05,716 --> 00:27:08,076 Speaker 3: faces when they come into the courtroom for that, if 527 00:27:08,116 --> 00:27:10,356 Speaker 3: they look at the defender they're going to acquit him, 528 00:27:10,476 --> 00:27:13,036 Speaker 3: and if they look away, they're going to convict. And 529 00:27:13,076 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 3: I don't think it's true, but I do think you 530 00:27:15,196 --> 00:27:18,476 Speaker 3: sometimes see what's happening. Sometimes they stare down the defendant 531 00:27:18,516 --> 00:27:21,476 Speaker 3: in anger, and you can tell that they really sort 532 00:27:21,516 --> 00:27:24,716 Speaker 3: of are personally angry at him. And sometimes you can't 533 00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:27,236 Speaker 3: get anything from them. So we're not there yet, but 534 00:27:28,276 --> 00:27:30,356 Speaker 3: I won't be in the courtroom. I'm curious to see 535 00:27:30,396 --> 00:27:32,796 Speaker 3: what they do when they come in. I will report back, 536 00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:34,556 Speaker 3: all right. 537 00:27:34,396 --> 00:27:36,916 Speaker 1: Al Jay, I will see you on the courthouse steps 538 00:27:36,996 --> 00:27:37,716 Speaker 1: on Thursday. 539 00:27:38,036 --> 00:27:40,036 Speaker 2: See you soon, and thank you so much. Rebecca. 540 00:27:40,156 --> 00:27:42,156 Speaker 3: Bye, guys, bye bye. 541 00:27:43,036 --> 00:27:45,236 Speaker 1: We'll be back in your feed soon with more expert 542 00:27:45,236 --> 00:27:49,196 Speaker 1: analysis and news from Sam bankman Fried's trial. Thanks for listening. 543 00:27:50,316 --> 00:27:53,716 Speaker 1: Olivia Gencott is our court reporter. Catherine Gerardeau and Nisha 544 00:27:53,796 --> 00:27:57,676 Speaker 1: Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our 545 00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:01,116 Speaker 1: music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of 546 00:28:01,196 --> 00:28:05,636 Speaker 1: stell Wagon Symphonet. Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. 547 00:28:06,036 --> 00:28:08,516 Speaker 1: Got a Question or Comment for Me is a website 548 00:28:08,516 --> 00:28:14,116 Speaker 1: for that ATR podcast dot com. 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