WEBVTT - What makes a serial killer? 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.800 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.480 It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:16.319 from House Stuff Works dot com? Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.720 the podcast. Actually I should probably try Hey, and welcome 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:23.920 to the podcast. This is about serial killers, right, Yeah. 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:26.200 I actually I'm glad you brought that up because I 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:27.920 wanted to mention that we have a lot of fun 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:29.720 in the show and we joke around, and we will 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.280 probably do that in the serial Killer podcast. Will and 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:36.599 I find them fascinating, but we always remember that there 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:38.120 are real victims here and we don't want them to 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.440 fly to that or anything. Yeah. No, but the serial 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:46.080 killers are so grizzly and their acts are so monstrous 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.519 that it almost is easy to just detach and be like, hey, 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.600 what's your favorite serial killer? They actually have serial killer 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:56.760 training cards. Huh. Yeah, but we don't play that game. No, 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:00.840 we don't. We play Old Maid. So I'm Josh Clark. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.840 The guy you just heard talking, uh is Charles W. 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:06.480 Chuck Bryant. If this is your first time to Stuff 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.840 you Should Know, Um, there is a goodie bag that 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:12.800 we have for you, if you'll check under your seat 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.360 should be taped under there. Send us an email and 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.560 we'll try to see what we can come up with 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.760 as a replacement. Probably just a response saying sorry. You 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:24.880 know what they get. They get two hundred and fifteen 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:29.479 free podcasts. Oh that's a good deal automatically, that is nice, 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:34.480 chuck Um. So what are we talking about today? Serial killers? Oh? Yeah, 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:41.880 that's right, Chuck. Here's the intro. Yeah. If you can't tell, 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:44.800 I'm a little twitchy, a little jumpy. You may even 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:46.160 hear a little bit of gum in my mouth that 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:50.480 I probably should take out being a professional podcast vehemently, 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.320 he just spit out his gum. Okay, so my gum 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:56.400 is out. But the reason I'm doing this and acting 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:01.840 all twitchy is because I have quit smoking for the 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.920 first time in twenty years. I'm actually doing it. I've 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.560 tried a couple of times, but we all know that 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:11.520 it was half hearted at best. But I'm actually quitting smoking. 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:13.919 Very proud of you, buddy. Thank you. Like I told 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.200 you in the email you didn't reply to if that's 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.760 very brave and terrifying thing you're doing. You have all 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:21.600 my support, Thank you very much. I want to keep 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.160 you around, and by proxy, I imagine I have Jerry's 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:29.120 support too. Yeah she can't said, yeah, So if I 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:31.600 do seem a little weird, it is because of that 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.600 today and I apologize. What's you're flying in japandam Mar, 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:36.400 So it's just all you're all weird right now, dah, 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.040 I am perfect time to do serial killers? Okay, so 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.720 let's talk serial killers, Chuck, Chuck, Where in the name 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.680 of God did the term serial killers come from? And 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:49.639 the middle of what decade did it come from? Coming 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.920 It was coin Josh in the mid seventies by Robert Wrestler, 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:58.239 and he was a former FBI director of the Violent 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:02.239 Criminal Apprehensions Program, which imagine as a pretty fun laugh 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.120 a minute job. And uh he apparently he chose cereal 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:10.680 because the English police called those kinds of crimes crimes 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.079 in a series, right and we uh we find in 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.720 the article written by Shanna Freeman pretty good one too, 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.840 like um that he was also a fan of serials 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:22.360 that like you would watch like at the movies, like 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.280 The Lone Ranger or something like that. So I thought 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:26.239 it was a little weird, Like I love The Lone Ranger. 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.160 So I'm gonna give a little shout out to him 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.600 by coining this term. Yeah, they used to call them 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:35.160 mass murders before that, or my favorite, it sounds like 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.600 a personal's ad stranger on stranger crime. I like that, 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:42.080 but it is true. I mean it is stranger crime 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:47.360 and kind of uh underlines one of the I guess 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:51.080 the riveting and and um most characteristic aspects of serial 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:55.160 killers is that they they lack what would appear to 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.720 any of the rest of us a motive. They're not 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:02.400 killing for money. Um, they're not killing for um, you know, 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.520 to get rid of a problem or because they're they've 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:09.160 been they're a jilted lover. The the key hallmark of 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:12.080 the serial killers that they kill for the pleasure of killing, 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.360 for the sake of killing, and their subcategories will get 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.920 into within that. But yeah, totally right on the money there. 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.120 And there's a couple of other kinds of murderers that 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.680 um people often confuse serial killers with. So let's just 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.920 clear the air right now. Let's start with mass murderers, right, 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.559 what do you have to do to become a mass murderer? Uh, 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:32.880 you have to kill four or more people at the 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.440 same time or roughly the same time in the same place. 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.000 So like a school shooter would be a mass murderer, 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.520 right right, right, And then of course you've got these 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.680 free killers. Uh. Those are like office shooters who go 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.800 from an from their house, say, after killing their family, 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.040 and then they're like, I got one more problem place 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.040 I want to take care of. They go to the office, 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.359 shoot that place up, kill some more people, and then 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:01.320 drive off to a gas station and blow their heads 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.560 off in in the in the van. Yeah. Yes. And 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.520 a serial killer, officially defined by the FBI, means you 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.080 it has to be three or more victims. And like 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:12.719 you said, the hallmark is there's got to be a 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.520 cooling off period in between. So like I killed somebody 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:18.400 and then like in Jeffrey Dahmer's case, I think he 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:22.120 waited years and years before he killed his second victim, 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.040 and then another long period because he was like eighteen 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.880 and when he started and yeah, yeah, something like that, 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:30.480 and then he waited and I think, and this is 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:32.600 all from memories, not in the article, and then um, 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.200 I think he waited a long time between second and 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.400 third and then they you know, as usual, it starts 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.200 picking up in succession, that kind of off the cliff 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:40.880 they go the further off the cliff they go, and 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:42.680 boy did he go off the cliff. We're gonna talk 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.559 about some famous serial killers later, right, Okay, we gotta 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.760 we gotta mention him. Um. As a matter of fact, 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:51.599 I think we would be professionally irresponsible if we didn't 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.839 mention Jeffrey Dahmer in depth. I think you're right, Um, Chuck. 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.960 There's uh. I think been approximately four hundred serial killer 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:05.080 in the US in the past century by estimates, right, Um. 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:11.000 And strangely, there's been a I think it an increase 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:15.400 of some vast percentage, but eighty percent of those have 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.680 come about since nineteen and they actually think the earliest 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.800 when the most widely cited first serial killer in the 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.760 US was a guy named H. H. Holmes. Yeah, he 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.640 had the Holmes Murder Castle in Chicago at the World's Fair. 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.080 He built this hotel basically and it was literally like 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:36.880 you check in, but you don't check out type of situation. Yeah. 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.560 And remember on the Urban Planning podcast we talked about 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.320 the the the guy who came up with the the 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.599 City Beautiful movement, and that's where he debuted. It was 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.400 at that at that World's Fair, right while people were 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:53.800 getting off at a at a hotel nearby, so he's 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:57.400 the first one. They say, I think, uh, twenty seven confessions. 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.640 But they as always almost with all these grogler killers, 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.839 they say, well they tagged this many, but there may 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:06.760 have been hundreds, right. And then sometimes most of the 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.040 time it's that they can get him for like two 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:14.280 or three, which is really all you need, um, and 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:18.440 then they'll confess to about you know, X number more 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.680 and then people will suspect that yeah, there's they actually 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.760 you know, kill the hundred or so people. But um, 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.440 in other cases it's actually they'll confess to more than 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:31.120 they actually did kill. Like Henry Lee Lucas has um 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.120 come into question over the over the years as to 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:36.040 how many people he actually killed. Like they know he 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:38.360 killed his mother, and they were pretty sure he kill 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:40.920 at least one other person. But if he only killed two, 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.160 he's technically not a serial killer. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.040 and then the also the other thing in like the 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.960 case of Wayne Williams, the Atlanta child strangler, he uh 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.360 or I don't think he's strangled child killer? He uh. 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:56.760 They kind of tacked on a bunch of murders onto 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.000 his wrap that they wanted to close the cases on. Yeah, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.480 did you ever hear about pretty Kinky case? Yeah, yeah, 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:04.480 I remember it kind of came back around in like 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:06.960 two thousand five or something. He was up for parole 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.680 or something, and the case was it sounds like he's 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.840 innocent if you if you start investigating the case, it's 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:24.280 really circumstantial. Um, that's our opinion. Uh so, Chuck, Josh, 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.640 how do you classify a serial killer? Well, there's a 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.520 couple of ways. You can classify them based on motive, 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:34.840 or you can classify them based on uh social patterns, 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:40.199 organizational patterns. So if you're talking motive, Um, you're talking 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:44.200 about Holmes typology named for Ronald and Stephen Holmes, right, 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.559 not h H. Holmes, you become a serial killer, you're 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.800 not allowed to actually classify any of your ilk extremely enough, 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.720 that's true. And they are authors of textbooks on violent crimes, 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:59.000 and they came up with this from anecdotal data. So 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.520 a lot of people poopo it. But when you're talking 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:03.520 serial killers, a lot of times all you can do 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.480 is interview these people and compile it and try and 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.400 draw you know, conclusions based on that. Right. So what 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:14.559 they came up with was, um, there's two kinds of Um, 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:18.480 I guess motive based. Sure. Uh, there's act focus and 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.960 process focus focus. So act focus means like you're you're 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.439 you're killing quickly, and you're usually killing for a reason. 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.679 There's a larger reason and the killing is kind of 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:33.440 means to the end of achieving that reason. Process focused 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.000 is kind of the um that's the serial killer who 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:42.040 enjoys killing, enjoys taking someone's life, will likely torture the 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.319 person over a period of time, will kill them kind 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:49.640 of brutally. Uh. There's it's not quick and it's messy. Yeah, 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.000 and there's there's subcategories within each of those. The act 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:56.760 focused killers are visionary or missionary. Visionary means they hear 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.280 voices and have like a vision saying like go kill 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:01.679 I think on Sam was one of those. Yeah, he 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:06.120 didn't his neighbor's dog talent quite a vision. And Uh, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.360 missionary murders um believe they're on like a mission to 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:14.679 get rid of like prostitutes, like the Green River killer. Right. Um. 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:19.040 And you could also um make the case that um 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.800 uh John Wayne Gacy was a mission focused or missionary 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.679 act focused serial killer because he had said after he 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.679 got caught like they're gonna give me an award for 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.880 getting rid of these you know, clousy, bad kids that 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:38.680 I killed. Um. But there's also a distinction among serial 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:43.160 killers that they often rationalize what they're doing by justifying 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.960 it to a larger authority, like they were providing society 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.800 a service. So depending on exactly how he was saying that, 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:51.760 it could go either way. Did you here see what 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.480 the Green River killer said in his police statement to 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:58.120 the jury, I just hate prostitute, hate prostitites. It's like, 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:01.560 all right, yeah, I remember Van Nostrin was reading a 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.160 book about that. Oh that's right, remember, Yeah. So the 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:09.720 subcategories for the processed focus slow killers are fall into 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:16.280 three groups. Um, lust killers, that's pretty self explanatory. Um, 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:20.160 but not check the ripper, right yeah, dah, yeah, we'll 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.600 get into him. Uh, I'm sorry. Thrill and gain killers, 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.080 and that means they either get a kick out of 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.800 killing or they think they're going to profit in some way. 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.719 And then the power seeking killers, who those are the 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.200 guys who like to play god. And we say guys 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:40.360 a lot because it's mostly white men. I think. Yeah, 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.360 it's very infrequent that you have a serial killer who 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:47.360 kills outside of his ethnic group, meaning that it's white 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.000 on white crime. Very rarely do you have a female 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.240 serial killer, right, although there's a pretty prominent one UM 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:59.240 named Charlie's Thearren you heard, yeah, where they ugly at 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:00.760 her up for that movie. Way they did a good 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:05.360 There's a picture of um Eileen Warnos in this article, 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.360 and by god, she doesn't look just like Charlie's Thearren 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:12.160 and monster. But she killed Uh she was convicted of 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.240 killing seven men and probably killed more. Yeah, but she 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:19.559 was one of the very few real female serial killers. Yeah, 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:21.319 there's a couple. We have a list that you know 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:23.640 how Josh loves this list, so we have a list 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:25.400 later on. We would like to get the ladies there 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:27.680 due because we called a task for not naming female 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.320 geniuses and Chuck. There's another way to classify serial killers, 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:35.199 and that's by their level of organization, right yeah, organized 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:40.640 or disorganized? Right? So organized e g. Dexter. You've got 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:44.840 somebody who, like um, drives a flashy car. Smart uh 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:49.440 smart Um? Actually there, he would be considered non social, 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.120 which we can't quite wrap our heads around that. But 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:57.040 it's um. I think it's being excluded from society. But 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:01.880 still being capable of existing or appearing to exist in society, 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:05.000 right sure, Okay, so they may also taunt the police. 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:10.120 They're probably educated, um and uh, they follow the news right, 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:14.840 keep up with modern events. They have daytime habits. They 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:19.000 is interesting. They may show up um as a like 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.840 a somebody who can help the police as a witness 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.400 crime or something like that, just to kind of get 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.400 a thrill out of that as well. Um, and then 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.400 of course you've got disorganized, right, this is like ed 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:36.160 Gan or Robert Picton just basically like the like you 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.120 can look at and be like, you're a serial killer, 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.640 aren't you. Yeah, And that's pretty they're pretty much the 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.560 opposite like everything we said. And there's a list of 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:46.840 things here for for organized and disorganized, and they're all 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.760 pretty much opposite. So disorganized means you live alone, you 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.320 don't date, you have no interest in the news, you 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.600 have nighttime habits, you aren't interested in the cops and 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:01.000 police work. You're kind of dumb. You you really don't dismember, 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:05.280 whereas organized person dismembers, Which is weird because again Robert 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:10.600 picked in um hung his victims on uh meat hooks 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:15.200 in his barn and disembowel them. Yeah, it was bad. Um, 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:21.200 but he had nighttime habits and was disorganized killer, So 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.240 it's kind of weird. I don't think anything's exactly cut 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.040 and dry when it comes to serial killers. Yeah. Well 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.040 they said the majority of them are organized and non social, 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.280 but they're like you know, we said, plenty of the 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:34.960 others as well. Um. And the other thing I thought 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.240 was interesting was the McDonald triad. Had you ever heard 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.280 of this? I had, but I've never heard of it. 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.360 I've never heard it called that. Yeah, they said that 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.760 serial killers often exhibit, uh, these three behaviors in childhood, 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.560 and it's known as the McDonald triad um formerly the 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:55.440 ray Croc triad um, bed wedding, arson and cruelty to animals. 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:57.920 And I surprised Josh with the fact that I was 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.800 nearly on the path myself. I because famously I was 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.760 a late bedweater, as I have admitted famously, and well 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.440 whoever listens to us, and um, I was kind of 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.400 into like fires. I wasn't an arsonist, but I love 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.880 playing with fire, but I love animals like crazy. So 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.880 you have the McDonald die ede not crazy crazy, but 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.520 I love hannibals. That's funny that you bring that up, Chuckers, 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:27.480 because a lot of people assume that serial killers are 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.560 in fact crazy. That's really far off base, at least 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:37.040 legally speaking. Right. So, there's a lot of debate now 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:41.840 actually more than ever, um, between psychology and sociology. And 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:43.760 we'll get into that a little further, but let's let's 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:47.520 talk about, um, you know, the kind of psychological motives. 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.840 But there's a little bit of foreshadowing. Take it with 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.640 grain salt, because there's a whole school thought out there 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:58.360 that thinks psychology has totally dropped the ball on explaining 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:04.200 criminal behavior, specifically serial killing. Right. So standard stuff that's 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.760 been around for decades is um that serial killers are 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.440 the result of combination of neglect and abuse. Right. Yes, 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:15.240 they've done studies. FBI has done studies and interviewed dozens 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.000 and dozens of killers, serial killers, all kinds of killers, 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.240 and they found a similar pattern, and most of them 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:24.680 of childhood abuse and neglect. And it makes sense because 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.360 when you're a kid, you're growing up, you're developing as 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:31.040 a normal, normal child. There are very important periods when 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:33.640 you learn about things like empathy and trust and love 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.600 and being nice with your fellow man, just very basic 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.640 rules of humanity, and if you don't have those, then 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.200 it's not imprinted on your little kid brain and you 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:45.160 may not be able to learn it later on in life. Right, 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:47.840 makes it a little tougher, Yeah, which is really sad. 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.800 It it is sad, and actually again, um, like, I 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.080 think it's appropriate that Jeffrey Dahmer is off to the 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:59.000 side in that little section because it's really weird. Because 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:04.040 I was thinking about it today, I've realized that I've 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.960 always kind of felt bad for that guy because of 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.639 the life that he had, Like he was abandoned by 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.160 his family. Is not just like his parents, like one 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.360 parent left, Like I think his dad left and then 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:18.280 his mom was like, I'm gonna go look for a 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.680 boyfriend and take the younger ones with me. You stay here, 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:25.280 And he was like seventeen and just left to live 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:27.920 the rest of his life on his own. I think 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.320 that played a huge factor in I imagine the neglect, right, 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:36.000 and then you have UM abuse. So usually they're finding 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.040 when they study serial killers that there is that combination 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:44.879 of UH neglect from the parents and UM abuse, either 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:51.240 direct abuse, whether it's a physical, emotional, sexual um or 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:55.240 witnessing the abuse of others, a sibling or both. I 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.879 imagine it's probably worse. And um they've actually seen in 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.359 rats with the neglect, not with the abuse part, but 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.959 with neglect. Rats that um are not that that are 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.360 basically neglected or rejected by their parents by their mother 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:16.080 actually show um symptoms of rats sociopathy as they get older. 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:18.800 I feel so bad for the rats. I know, it's 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.480 like the did someone actually abuse the rats to see 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.560 how they react? Kind of you like flick them and stuff. 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.439 If you put on a white lab coat, you can 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.919 pretty much do whatever you want to a rat and 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.520 the rats. Oh. The other thing that you know you 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.199 mentioned Amer it was so disturbing and just like oddly 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.160 fascinating was when he was a teenager. I think one 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.719 of the first really odd acts he did was he 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:43.520 like saw a dead deer in the woods. Did you 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.520 ever hear about that? And he like laid down with 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.080 a deer and like, you know, cuddled with it. It's 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.600 like Johnny Depp and dead Man in the forest. Oh, yeah, 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:54.000 you're right. And uh, then before he killed, I know, 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.320 he knocked a jogger out cold in the woods and 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.399 like laid down with his unconscious body to try and 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.240 stave off this desire to kill. Yeah, and well, I 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.080 don't even know if it was to stave off the 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.439 desire to kill as much as if he was tired 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.600 of people leaving him alone. He wanted to be with people. 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.280 One of the things that he was famous for was 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.320 an attempt to make a zombie who would stay with him, 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.280 so he would he would lure like young prostitute boys 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.800 back to his house or his apartment and then attack him. 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:26.800 There was one kid that he drilled a hole in 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.560 the guy's head and was able to pour drain oh 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.960 into it, and the guy stayed alive like that for 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.840 a few days, and Dahmer, a guest, said, you know, 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.080 I just didn't want him to leave. Yeah, he wanted companionship. Yeah. 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.720 So he was trying to make a zombie using drain though, 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.640 and I think that probably also accounts for the cannibalism 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.720 as well. Is he trying to ingest something to keep 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.000 it as a part of himself. This is all just 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:56.959 armchair psychology, but it's we could pretty much charge for 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:00.919 this with the level that psychologists contributed so far. You know, 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.040 I wonder if match dot com would have been around, 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:04.520 if he could have found like a mate, if that 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:08.160 never would have happened, maybe so, or maybe he would 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:09.960 have killed the mate and then use match dot com 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.359 to find his victims. Oh yeah, So, Chuck, we are 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.000 talking about whether or not serial killers are insane. And 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.920 if you look at the US Code for the insanity defense, 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.320 they don't fit the bill almost Ever, when you read 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.159 the definition, at the time of the commission of the 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.840 acts constituting the offense, the defendant, as a result of 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.200 a severe mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:35.119 the nature and quality of the wrongfulness of his acts. 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.600 Mental disease or defect does not otherwise constitute defense. Right, 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.920 So you don't understand what you're doing. You don't is 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:44.440 right and wrong? Is right and wrong? And you also 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:47.960 aren't You're not You're not taking a life like that's 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.960 not your goal. You're not thinking about that. This flies 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.280 in the face of serial killing. Well, that's only two 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:56.320 have only gotten off with that plea of insanity, right, 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.160 and one of them was a game and he wore 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:02.520 people's skin. Yeah, he was the inspiration for Buffalo Bill 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.760 and leather Face. Yeah, and Texas changeaw Masacar do the 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:10.600 dance for me? Baby was Texas Changsaw Mascar summer school 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.880 reference when they were watching Texas. That was a reference 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.960 in a reference. I thought you were gonna do the like, uh, well, 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:22.480 you help me with this couch good. You do a 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:26.480 way better Buffalo Bill than me. I don't know, you, 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:31.840 big fat gruel. That's so disturbing. It is a great movie, though, Yeah, 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:35.480 and we like that one picture. Yeah. Sure. Did I 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:37.960 ever tell you my Silence of the Lamb story? I 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.040 went to uh An Athens in college. I went to 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:42.280 see Dances with Wolves and they said, and if you 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.240 want to stay after for a free screening of Silence 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:47.159 of the Lambs of Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins. And 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:49.280 I was like, I'll stay. And I heard Silence of 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:51.520 the Lambs Jodie Foster, Anthony Hopkins. I thought it was 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.879 gonna be like Our Merchant everything. I cut to thirty 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:56.879 minutes into the movie when I have my you know, 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.760 hair glued to the ceiling of the theater. I was like, 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:02.879 holy crap. Yeah that was a good movie. It still 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.480 is too, but when it came out it was like groundbreaking. Definitely, 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:10.920 it's good stuff. Um, but yeah, Buffalo Bob and Buffalo Bill. 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:14.600 You know that one and Leatherface were both based on Ageen, 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:16.720 who is one of I think two serial killers in 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:19.120 the US to ever get off on an insanity played. Yea, 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:23.080 he was rough, he was, and he looks like it too. 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.119 He's wearing like flannel and he's just staying in on 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:28.040 his sports like I'll kill you, I'll kill you. And 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:33.000 I think psycho Um Anthony Hopkins character is based on 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:35.480 a Geene as well. Yeah, he made a big splash 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:37.080