Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah. This is and this is no
Speaker 1: such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments
Speaker 1: and yours by actually doing the research. Today's argument began
Speaker 1: with a tweet the question do audiobooks count is reading?
Speaker 2: I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't.
Speaker 1: Do you actually comprehend content the same way when you're
Speaker 1: hearing it versus reading it?
Speaker 3: I feel like I forget what I read very quickly.
Speaker 2: And lastly, I have a confession to make to a friend.
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something now, Rich, okay, and
Speaker 1: this is full transparency here.
Speaker 2: What would you say if I told you.
Speaker 4: There's no no such thing, no such thing, no such thing.
Speaker 3: I'll hop in here because I came across a tweet
Speaker 3: that I dropped into the d MS, and the tweet
Speaker 3: was do audiobooks count is reading?
Speaker 5: And I just commented no, so many.
Speaker 2: What do you think if someone tells me they read
Speaker 2: something but they actually listened to it. I don't feel
Speaker 2: like they're defrauding me or anything like that. I haven't
Speaker 2: listened to many audiobooks, but if I did, I think
Speaker 2: I would be okay telling someone that I've read them.
Speaker 2: The end of the year and you're making a list
Speaker 2: of all the books you've read, you would put Prince
Speaker 2: Harry's book on. I would put Prince Harre you listen
Speaker 2: to it exactly if I had listened to it.
Speaker 3: Okay, So now you obviously believe that listening to an
Speaker 3: audiobook counts as reading.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you know I've listened to the Prince Harry
Speaker 1: You're a Catcher in the Rye.
Speaker 2: That's a book I've read. I know the book.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 3: So my goal this year was to read twenty four books.
Speaker 3: I didn't read twenty four. I got to like twenty
Speaker 3: twenty one. You're telling me if I listened to twenty
Speaker 3: four audiobooks that this year would be the equivalent of
Speaker 3: me reading twenty four books.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would totally accept that. If you were like,
Speaker 2: if you posted that is insane.
Speaker 1: You posted your listen, We're like, here's the twenty four
Speaker 1: books I read. And we're talking about a semantic issue.
Speaker 5: No, no, no. The question was do audio books count
Speaker 5: as reading? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Reading, But I guess it means what does reading mean
Speaker 2: to you?
Speaker 5: Reading means to me? What reading? Yeah? Exactly, It's like,
Speaker 5: what is the definition of reading.
Speaker 1: It's a very small view of what reading really is.
Speaker 3: I think it's a very you know, reading is one thing,
Speaker 3: which is reading, all right, But these are books. Huh,
Speaker 3: there are audio books. Yeah, but it's the same, it's
Speaker 3: the same content.
Speaker 1: We do you think people are obscuring the fact that
Speaker 1: they listened to me?
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is my whole The real reason I have
Speaker 3: a real issue with this is because I think people
Speaker 3: just need to be honest about how they're consuming media.
Speaker 3: And I think the people who listen to audiobooks and
Speaker 3: want to pretend that they read the books is because
Speaker 3: they are slightly embarrassed that they listen to the book
Speaker 3: and they didn't read it, because otherwise, why won't you
Speaker 3: just say, yeah, I listened to that audiobook. This person
Speaker 3: was clearly asking because she was putting together some sort
Speaker 3: of lists end of the year. She didn't read as
Speaker 3: many books as maybe she felt like she should have
Speaker 3: that year, but she listened to some audio books and
Speaker 3: she wanted to add them to the list.
Speaker 1: So you want people to make two lists, then yeah,
Speaker 1: what like if I put together It's like, I'm not
Speaker 1: that interested in seeing any lists.
Speaker 2: So now it's like you're gonna ask me to look
Speaker 2: at two. I'm not saying medium.
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that, right, Like you can you can
Speaker 3: make one list and say here's the things I read
Speaker 3: and listen to this year.
Speaker 2: So I think a question for Devin here is what
Speaker 2: is it about the act of reading that you feel
Speaker 2: is more valuable than listening to an audiobook?
Speaker 3: What is the difference between reading and like listening to
Speaker 3: an audiobook? Is that like I can't read and walk
Speaker 3: my dog at the same time, Right, I can't.
Speaker 2: Read, But would you if you could?
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, if I could, I would.
Speaker 2: I mean, but.
Speaker 5: It's like we talked about this the other day. People
Speaker 5: don't read books.
Speaker 3: Reading is not an easy thing to do, like making
Speaker 3: time for reading, especially now having the intention span to read.
Speaker 3: And I think no, rightfully or wrong for people look
Speaker 3: at people who read a lot of books, and then
Speaker 3: if I might, then someone who may read one book
Speaker 3: a year, right, Like saying I read one hundred books
Speaker 3: this year is very different than I listened to one
Speaker 3: hundred audiobooks every morning.
Speaker 5: I listen to.
Speaker 3: Let's say, two hours of like between like NPR and
Speaker 3: w NYC and like the daily Right. So if I said, okay,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to do that every day. I'm just
Speaker 3: gonna make those audio books. I can get through a
Speaker 3: lot of audio books any year.
Speaker 2: So basically this is like a work ethic thing. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're looking at it as a time inge.
Speaker 1: I mean I I do listen to the occasional audiobook, Okay,
Speaker 1: I mostly read books.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, in.
Speaker 1: Your definition physical paperback books. I'm looking with my eyes.
Speaker 2: It now feels like such a brave thing to say, Like,
Speaker 2: I do listen occasionally. I keep a list just so
Speaker 2: I can look at what I've read this year.
Speaker 5: Okay, list.
Speaker 1: I can look at that list, and I don't mark
Speaker 1: off the difference. You know which ones you read, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know which ones you listen to.
Speaker 2: So Devin is making a point about like transparency and honest.
Speaker 2: But another question around this is like, whether you're reading
Speaker 2: or listening, do you feel like the information is being
Speaker 2: retained in the same way? For example, if Noah listened
Speaker 2: to Killers of the Flower Moon and Devin read it,
Speaker 2: do you feel like you're coming away with such a
Speaker 2: different experience.
Speaker 3: So I don't think like because I read a book
Speaker 3: and Noah listened to a book, that means that I
Speaker 3: necessarily have like retained the information better. I just think
Speaker 3: it's like probably processed in a way that's different. But
Speaker 3: I also like there's there's books that I read that
Speaker 3: I don't remember very well. Like I sent y'all that
Speaker 3: TikTok the other day about that woman talking about like
Speaker 3: reading the book and then like instantly forgetting Am I
Speaker 3: the only person who read a book loved the book
Speaker 3: in about seventy two hours?
Speaker 2: You'd have forgot everything that happened in that damn book.
Speaker 3: And that's why my friends be thinking that I'd just
Speaker 3: be skimming through the pages because they fuck trying to
Speaker 3: ask me about a book.
Speaker 5: I can tell you what the fuck happened in that book.
Speaker 3: And if like there's some stuff that I read just
Speaker 3: like fun that I'm not paying that close attention to,
Speaker 3: like that happens and I instantly forget what happened. And
Speaker 3: there's like some audio stuff that like I'll be listening
Speaker 3: to that like maybe I'm paying a bit more attention
Speaker 3: to like this American Life episode where I'll be able
Speaker 3: to retain more information. So I don't know. I think
Speaker 3: that's a long way of saying I think it depends.
Speaker 3: I don't think like necessarily reading or listening to something
Speaker 3: means you're going to retain the information better.
Speaker 1: It can go both ways, like I've read books and
Speaker 1: then reread them and then just you know, whether it's
Speaker 1: just the mood you're in when you're doing it or whatever,
Speaker 1: you might just be able to absorb the information better,
Speaker 1: whether it's just like you're in a different headspace. And
Speaker 1: then there's also books that like I've done both at
Speaker 1: the same time, where like I'll have the physical copy,
Speaker 1: but then I'll have the audiobook on my fo some
Speaker 1: of it you read so long? Yeah, Like I remember
Speaker 1: doing that with the Oppenheimer biography.
Speaker 5: Oh wow. We had a conversation where Rich about it.
Speaker 2: For context, Rich as a friend of ours we used
Speaker 2: to work with.
Speaker 3: I just want to reveal on the podcast here that
Speaker 3: you didn't say I listened.
Speaker 5: I also listened to the audiobook.
Speaker 1: Me. Well, I'm speaking my truth because that's how I feel.
Speaker 1: It's it's the same thing.
Speaker 3: The conversation was literally about how he couldn't get through
Speaker 3: reading the book, what.
Speaker 2: His habits are like, maybe he reads two books a year.
Speaker 2: I read a lot of books.
Speaker 5: I'd read that exact conversation.
Speaker 3: Is my issue with people who want to claim that
Speaker 3: they read audio books. It's like one man is saying, Wow,
Speaker 3: it's really hard for me to get through reading this book,
Speaker 3: and you're like, yeah, it was kind of easy for me.
Speaker 5: I didn't like three.
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't brag about it listening. He asked me
Speaker 2: how long it took. I gave him an answer of a.
Speaker 3: Time about some very important information, which is you listen
Speaker 3: to half of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I know every fact in there, so I'm
Speaker 1: not saying, you know, once again, it's not about comprehension.
Speaker 2: To me, it is about comprehension.
Speaker 1: We keep going back to this where it's like you're
Speaker 1: talking about people being worried about how they're going to
Speaker 1: be perceived.
Speaker 2: Yes, right, that's kind of what this is actually about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is about people's perce So it just depends
Speaker 1: on how you want to present publicly. I guess I
Speaker 1: don't like in that moment with Rich for example, I
Speaker 1: wasn't being self conscious. I just wasn't thinking about it.
Speaker 1: I was beyond being self conscious. I was on a
Speaker 1: different plane. It was not even a thought in my
Speaker 1: head to mention it because it's irrelevant to me.
Speaker 2: Just to distill the argument, a little bit here. Basically, Devin,
Speaker 2: you feel like people are self conscious about this because
Speaker 2: they feel like listening to an audiobook is not as
Speaker 2: prestigious as reading a book.
Speaker 5: You got to see what's important to you. It's like
Speaker 5: a challenge for me to like find time to read.
Speaker 3: To me, there's something I don't know, still sacred about
Speaker 3: getting outside of the sort of digital world we live
Speaker 3: in to read words on a page. Well, you didn't
Speaker 3: ask Noah how he feels about it about do you
Speaker 3: think reading is more sacred than listening to an audiobook?
Speaker 2: I can't say necessarily.
Speaker 1: I think that, Like I think if you're actually focusing
Speaker 1: on the words and focusing on listening to it, you
Speaker 1: could still have the same experience, are a very similar experience,
Speaker 1: if not the same one, But as far as comprehending
Speaker 1: and connecting with it, I think generally you could even
Speaker 1: even something that is like maybe on a more sentence
Speaker 1: by sentence level, kind of that more literary sort of thing.
Speaker 2: And to play Noah's advocate a little bit, you know, please,
Speaker 2: like like the passing of information via word of mouth,
Speaker 2: like that's long before books and writing, Like that's an
Speaker 2: ancient tradition that's a right. I ever heard of the Odyssey.
Speaker 6: DEVI Well, what what do you personally think, though you said,
Speaker 6: I mean, at the end of the year, if you
Speaker 6: read ten books versus listening to ten audiobooks, what do
Speaker 6: you think is more valuable reading?
Speaker 2: Okay, reading with us? We can't look, we can.
Speaker 5: Look.
Speaker 3: I think there's I think the thing here, right, is
Speaker 3: that we all want to pretend like audiobooks.
Speaker 1: Are just Again, it's like what we say is valuable,
Speaker 1: That's what I would that's what I would prefer, and
Speaker 1: that's how I would get the most out of these
Speaker 1: books for me.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: But I think this is that classic sort of like
Speaker 3: everyone wants, you know, like we all want to pretend
Speaker 3: to be like inclusive.
Speaker 5: And blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm doing when it comes down to it,
Speaker 3: It's like, well, me, personally, I prefer to read. But
Speaker 3: like if you want to say, like audio books is
Speaker 3: reading good for you, you're saying I'm being too woke.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I think that.
Speaker 2: Basically, it's like people absorb these things differently.
Speaker 3: Agree, Yeah, just own the way you're absorbing it. Like
Speaker 3: if you're listening to an audiobook, just be upfront about it.
Speaker 1: So Devin's main concern is more about the presentation of
Speaker 1: it all. He thinks people are embarrassed to admit that
Speaker 1: they listen to books because it's quote unquote easier than reading.
Speaker 1: So we're going to do a couple of things. Now,
Speaker 1: We're going to do a test to see how reading
Speaker 1: stacks up versus listening as far as retaining information. And
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to talk to an expert about
Speaker 1: all of this stuff.
Speaker 2: All right, we're back. I'm Noah Manny Devin.
Speaker 1: Last time we spoke, we were arguing about whether or
Speaker 1: not audiobooks count as reading.
Speaker 5: So we just really quickly say where we stand.
Speaker 2: Devin, Why don't you say where you stand?
Speaker 3: Audiobooks do not count as reading. They count as listening
Speaker 3: to audiobooks.
Speaker 1: And to me, they're the same. You get all the
Speaker 1: same stuff out of them, so it's reading to me.
Speaker 5: Then, I remember, what do you use in on this, man?
Speaker 2: I remember being kind of agnostic.
Speaker 5: I think.
Speaker 1: So what we've done since then is I wanted to
Speaker 1: get some real answers on this. I reached out to
Speaker 1: an expert on the issue. I wanted to find out
Speaker 1: how reading comprehension is actually studied and what differences there
Speaker 1: are between reading and listening.
Speaker 7: My name is Virginia Clinton LaSelle. I'm an Associate professor
Speaker 7: of Educational Foundations and Research at the University of North Dakota,
Speaker 7: and I specialize in digital reading and flexible reading modalities.
Speaker 1: She published a meta analysis a few years ago looking
Speaker 1: at forty six different reading versus listening studies, oh with
Speaker 1: over forty six hundred participants, so she's kind of the
Speaker 1: perfect person to ask about this. She had an interesting
Speaker 1: motivation for why she started the study to begin with.
Speaker 7: I will say my motivation for this study was I
Speaker 7: was in a book club on campus and somebody very
Speaker 7: sheepishly sad, I've been listening to the audiobook. Oh I'm sorry, Like,
Speaker 7: and I've been. I've been doing so much driving it
Speaker 7: just worked better.
Speaker 2: And I remember just.
Speaker 7: Thinking, why are you so embarrassed about that?
Speaker 2: We're all busy academics.
Speaker 7: We're doing something extra, you know, you're meeting and talking
Speaker 7: about it and contributing.
Speaker 2: I've learned something. After that, after that SoundBite, I'm on,
Speaker 2: if you're in a book reaction, like, I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't.
Speaker 2: You're in a book club.
Speaker 5: The whole book.
Speaker 2: If she's able to come and actually say things difference.
Speaker 2: I get like the information relaying, but that feels like
Speaker 2: a book club feels like kind of a sacred.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But I guess the point is like if she
Speaker 1: hadn't said that, would the other people in the group
Speaker 1: even know this thing?
Speaker 2: Was like, what are you end the book club for it?
Speaker 1: Because you all read these pages or because you're reading
Speaker 1: this book together and learning about the story or whatever.
Speaker 1: It's like, if you're able to talk about it, then
Speaker 1: it doesn't.
Speaker 3: I viewed as twofold right, Like the book club holds
Speaker 3: you like accountable for Okay, I'm going to have to
Speaker 3: finish this thing because I'm gonna have to go and
Speaker 3: talk to people about it. So it forces you to
Speaker 3: make time to read the book. To your point, I
Speaker 3: think in terms of the discussions, sure, I don't care
Speaker 3: if you've you know, like I can talk to I
Speaker 3: could talk to someone about a book if I've read
Speaker 3: it and they've listened to it.
Speaker 5: And I'm not gonna be like, I'm sorry speak to people
Speaker 5: who have read the book.
Speaker 2: You're not like the book club goes it doesn't go
Speaker 2: any differently if you listen or read it, but it
Speaker 2: just feels like a weird for whatever reason, that struck
Speaker 2: me as like wow in a book club.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I asked her what these experiments typically look like, and
Speaker 1: it's pretty simple. The participants will read or listen to
Speaker 1: a selected tech. Sometimes there will be different parameters, like
Speaker 1: you have thirty minutes to do it, or it'll kind
Speaker 1: of shift you through one phrase at a time to
Speaker 1: keep you at a certain pace, and then you'll answer
Speaker 1: multiple choice questions or do something like write down everything
Speaker 1: you remember. So there's a variance there as far as
Speaker 1: how difficult the testing is, whether it's looking for simple
Speaker 1: stuff or kind of taking the next step in inferring
Speaker 1: and applying more knowledge to it. It'd typically be something
Speaker 1: where one group reads something one week and then they
Speaker 1: come back the next week and listen to something, so
Speaker 1: you can compare the same people's scores in each mode
Speaker 1: out anyway, we did our own small version of that. Now,
Speaker 1: obviously a real study wouldn't just be me listening versus
Speaker 1: Devin reading. It would be us doing both of them
Speaker 1: right and then testing. But this is more to prove
Speaker 1: a point and to be petty. So we just did
Speaker 1: a simple one like this. We both read a short
Speaker 1: story called The Lottery by Shirley Jackson, and then we
Speaker 1: took a short I think it's definitely like for a
Speaker 1: high school class. Okay, choice multiple choice questionnaire on it.
Speaker 2: So I think we should start with Devin's score.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Evan read read the story using a visual modality.
Speaker 5: So I got one wrong.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's pretty good.
Speaker 5: Okay, So what my score was eight? One wrong? So
Speaker 5: I got a ninety five percent.
Speaker 2: That's great. Wow, that's strong a strong start. No, how
Speaker 2: did you do on your test? Well, I got.
Speaker 1: I read the book using a you know, auditory modality.
Speaker 2: And I got an eighty nine percent. I got two
Speaker 2: questions wrong, damn on two only two, So it's kind
Speaker 2: of the arbiter here. I think it does mean something
Speaker 2: that Devin got one more question right than Noah. However,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm thinking like one question to me, I don't
Speaker 2: know if I can attribute that to like reading being
Speaker 2: that much better of a method of information, where.
Speaker 1: He might just be smarter, Devin might just be built different.
Speaker 1: We have not thought about that.
Speaker 2: This specific test. I don't know if this the results
Speaker 2: like stats wise, Devin wins. But I just don't know
Speaker 2: if I can really say which mode is retaining the
Speaker 2: information better than the other one. So I asked doctor
Speaker 2: Clinton Lassell to explain what's going on in your brain
Speaker 2: when you're reading.
Speaker 7: There's two processes that are going on in our brain.
Speaker 7: In what's called the simple view of reading, there's decoding,
Speaker 7: where you look at the text and you're able to
Speaker 7: determine what those words are, so you can see the word,
Speaker 7: the thch the letters, and then you know that means
Speaker 7: the And then there's the comprehension aspect, where you're taking
Speaker 7: the meaning from the text and creating an idea of
Speaker 7: what the whole text is about. That's called a mental
Speaker 7: representation of the text, and that requires things like vocabulary
Speaker 7: and background knowledge and making connections from one idea to
Speaker 7: the next.
Speaker 1: That kind of lays out the two step process that
Speaker 1: goes on when you're taking in a text. I asked,
Speaker 1: you know the big question, which is what's the difference
Speaker 1: comprehension wise between reading versus listening.
Speaker 7: They're honestly not that different. Obviously, the decoding process isn't there.
Speaker 7: You're not having to look at words and figure out
Speaker 7: what those letters mean, but instead you're listening and you
Speaker 7: have to figure out those sounds make words. Now, because
Speaker 7: we learn how to listen from infancy, but we learned
Speaker 7: how to read a little bit later in our lives,
Speaker 7: we forget that that listening process actually takes brain power
Speaker 7: and actually takes efforts. So I think that's why a
Speaker 7: lot of times there's this misconception that listening to an
Speaker 7: audiobook is cheating or it's not really reading a book
Speaker 7: or learning about a content area, and that just doesn't
Speaker 7: seem to be the case definitely, And it comes to
Speaker 7: memory for what you read. There's really no difference between
Speaker 7: an audio book and a visual book.
Speaker 1: So you heard it there. Reading and listening are actually
Speaker 1: very similar. But listening is so much more natural to
Speaker 1: us since we've been doing it longer than we've been reading. Obviously,
Speaker 1: now we kind of overlook the work that we do
Speaker 1: to turn sounds we hear into words with meaning.
Speaker 2: That's fair, which I thought was really interesting. And I
Speaker 2: suppose that's the other side of the exam that you
Speaker 2: two did, which is like, yes, Devin got one more
Speaker 2: question correct, but Noah still got seventeen out of nineteen. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So it's not like listening to audio. If I came
Speaker 2: in ten of.
Speaker 1: Those right out of yeah, you know, I wouldn't be
Speaker 1: here sitting talking to you guys. I'd be like, we're
Speaker 1: scrapping this episode too, shame. One thing she does mention
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, when we're talking about more complicated sorts
Speaker 1: of things, they do see more improvement for visual reading.
Speaker 1: Part of it is like you're more likely to go
Speaker 1: back and reread things even if you don't think about it.
Speaker 2: So like on a page, you probably.
Speaker 1: Reread it few sentences, even if you don't feel like, oh,
Speaker 1: actually I'm going back or even pausing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like that's what I was thinking about when I
Speaker 3: was doing this test. It's like I was stopping and
Speaker 3: like okay and saying to myself, Okay, gotta remember that
Speaker 3: character's name because it probably will come up and it was,
Speaker 3: and then reading again. Whereas if you listen to an audiobook, yeah,
Speaker 3: you can pause and rewind, but it's like it's a
Speaker 3: lot more complicated of a process.
Speaker 1: She also said to where we're talking about driving and
Speaker 1: this sort of thing, there's obviously different levels of distraction.
Speaker 1: So it's like you can be distracted reading a paper book.
Speaker 1: If like your kid's running up to you and bugging
Speaker 1: you all the time or whatever. You know, your phone's
Speaker 1: next to you and going off in the same way.
Speaker 1: Where if you're driving and you're going down a new
Speaker 1: route that you don't know and you have a book on, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're probably not going to get a lot of it.
Speaker 1: But if you're doing your normal commute and it's like
Speaker 1: your clarney know what it is, you're not your brain
Speaker 1: is not even thinking about it at that point, it's
Speaker 1: probably about equal, okay. So multitasking in general lowers comprehension
Speaker 1: and just takes longer to.
Speaker 2: Pick up that stuff.
Speaker 1: She also mentioned some other reasons that audiobooks could be
Speaker 1: a an option.
Speaker 7: I know, also, there's a lot of functional diversity. So
Speaker 7: obviously if you're visually impaired, audiobooks are going to be
Speaker 7: a better option for the most part. But there's a
Speaker 7: lot of other functionally diverse individuals, you know, things like
Speaker 7: having battlethritis. Holding a book is painful, listening to a
Speaker 7: book is not. There's a bill curve of how active
Speaker 7: and how much somebody moves in general, and you know,
Speaker 7: people like my daughter don't have ADHD, but they are
Speaker 7: just more active individuals. So people with ADHD who really
Speaker 7: do have a hard time sitting still find that if
Speaker 7: they're doing some kind of multitasking that doesn't take cognitive effort,
Speaker 7: like folding the laundry or washing the dishes, that having
Speaker 7: that physical movement keeps their body calm so they're able
Speaker 7: to listen and really enjoy the book. Whereas holding a book,
Speaker 7: I mean, there's some things you can do, like you
Speaker 7: can ride a stationary bike or do a stair stepper,
Speaker 7: but you're a lot more limited as far as your mobility.
Speaker 1: She ended up bringing up about schools and reading loss,
Speaker 1: where you know, I'm asking about all these different things,
Speaker 1: and she's like, yeah, well, like especially when you're talking
Speaker 1: with students, like, ultimately you just want them to read.
Speaker 1: However they're going to actually read it, because that's going
Speaker 1: to be better than if they just totally skip the
Speaker 1: assignment because it's only in a textbook. And she basically says,
Speaker 1: unless the lesson is about is about to teach a
Speaker 1: reading skill or something like that's the point of it,
Speaker 1: then ideally the student just has whatever option they're actually going.
Speaker 7: To do, is the learning objective teaching them something specific
Speaker 7: to reading? Or is it about the content or the
Speaker 7: story structure, or the plot or the background knowledge. If
Speaker 7: it's the learning injectives don't have anything to do with
Speaker 7: the actual modality specific language skills, then if an option
Speaker 7: is available, giving that option would probably be a good idea.
Speaker 1: That's kind of her view as a educator. The more
Speaker 1: you read, the better you read, and that just goes
Speaker 1: for everything.
Speaker 3: And she says the more you read in terms of
Speaker 3: like actual reading or your your pretender reading.
Speaker 2: Reading, the more you read, the better you're a good
Speaker 2: doctor there, Yeah, yeah, good doctor. So those are my
Speaker 2: main takeaways.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I guess the big question is does
Speaker 1: this change your your opinions on this at all?
Speaker 5: Manny?
Speaker 2: Why don't you go first? As we know at the
Speaker 2: beginning of this, I was kind of ambivalent. I've never
Speaker 2: minded when someone, I guess I've never known actually, so
Speaker 2: someone could have told me that they read a book
Speaker 2: and they could have lied, probably probably lied, But if
Speaker 2: they were lying, I don't think I would have minded.
Speaker 2: Now I do care, but I'm still in the middle
Speaker 2: because I don't. I don't mind, like I truly don't
Speaker 2: mind how people will describe how they read things. So
Speaker 2: I guess that puts me on no aside. Are you
Speaker 2: surprised by Yeah, what we found out I got. I
Speaker 2: was surprised to hear that listening to a book is
Speaker 2: essentially the same comprehension process as reading a book. And
Speaker 2: so someone's listening to a book and they say they
Speaker 2: want they read it, if they want to say they
Speaker 2: read it, I don't have any problem with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'll say, even as a you know,
Speaker 1: the audiobook advocate here, I was a bit surprised at
Speaker 1: the comprehension levels were essentially the same. I kind of
Speaker 1: expected that reading on paper would be a lot higher
Speaker 1: if there was going to be a difference, So I
Speaker 1: was surprised when when I learned that that there's not
Speaker 1: that much of a difference. But yeah, I mean, even
Speaker 1: as someone who would listen for me, it felt like
Speaker 1: I definitely get more out of the page. But I'm
Speaker 1: finding out that basically if I actually focused on an audiobook,
Speaker 1: I would get pretty much exactly the same, which was instructive.
Speaker 1: And then, Devin, I imagine that you still still feel
Speaker 1: like people should be upfront about whether they read or listened.
Speaker 1: But do you feel any differently about like that mode,
Speaker 1: like does it do you feel differently? Do you feel
Speaker 1: do you have more respect for people who listen to
Speaker 1: books knowing that they're adding the same information.
Speaker 3: I think, See, I know it came up very strong
Speaker 3: because I still feel very strongly that people who listen
Speaker 3: to audiobooks should just say they listened to the audiobooks.
Speaker 5: But for me, it was never about the comprehension part.
Speaker 3: Because like I said, there's like some of the stuff
Speaker 3: that I consume, I feel like the best is audio
Speaker 3: based stuff, Like that's the stuff that like keeps my
Speaker 3: attention at times the best. Like it's the mode that
Speaker 3: like I had default to in terms of like entertainment. Right,
Speaker 3: So it was never to me about comprehension. It is
Speaker 3: interesting and actually see like okay, yeah, these are actually
Speaker 3: very similar, like she said, they're you know, obviously there
Speaker 3: are some specifics based on how distracted you are or
Speaker 3: caveats as today, but so I'm not that surprised that
Speaker 3: comprehension is pretty similar. But I still feel like knowing
Speaker 3: that you should feel even more empowered to go up
Speaker 3: to someone and said, I listened.
Speaker 5: To the audiobook. What are you going to say? Like
Speaker 5: I didn't comprehend the information in the same way.
Speaker 1: Well, I do say that as far as if I
Speaker 1: came across someone say I'm having an open conversation now
Speaker 1: and it comes out.
Speaker 2: I listened to it. Yeah, I read an audiobook.
Speaker 1: I think I now I'd be like, well, actually, first
Speaker 1: of all, you know, listen to this podcast. But also
Speaker 1: I'd probably be like, oh, you might be surprised to
Speaker 1: learn that it's actually, you know, the.
Speaker 2: Same same COMPREHENSI as far as comprehension.
Speaker 3: But so, you know, maybe for me still there is
Speaker 3: something about reading, the ritual of doing it right, the
Speaker 3: fact that you can't do a while doing other things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's still holds a special place.
Speaker 3: But yeah, you know, if someone wants to come at
Speaker 3: you saying like you're an idiot because you listen to
Speaker 3: the thing, it's like, no.
Speaker 2: Yeah, actually I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm an idiot for other reasons, not because of that.
Speaker 2: I think the audiobook Listen of the World, after listening
Speaker 2: to this episode will feel more empowered to be more transparent.
Speaker 2: I've got to lie about how they consumed that book. Yes,
Speaker 2: and I think that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 5: Exactly we changed the world. Before we end the episode,
Speaker 5: I think we need to do one more thing.
Speaker 2: I think I know what you're talking about. I don't
Speaker 2: think this is necessary.
Speaker 5: I think we need to call over it.
Speaker 2: All right, let's do it.
Speaker 5: Rich.
Speaker 1: Do you remember last year we got burrito's? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then we I think we went bowling.
Speaker 4: We did go bowling, I remember vividly.
Speaker 1: Do you remember what we talked about while we were
Speaker 1: walking from the burrito place to the bowling alley? Yeah?
Speaker 4: We were talking about Oppenheimer. The movie had just come out,
Speaker 4: and I was saying like, yeah, I just got the book,
Speaker 4: and you were saying, oh, yeah, I already read it.
Speaker 4: And I was like, wait, really you had time to
Speaker 4: read all of that and you're like yeah, I just
Speaker 4: spent some time, like really dug.
Speaker 5: Down into it.
Speaker 2: And all right, So I'm going to tell you.
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something now, Rich, Okay, and
Speaker 1: this is full transparency here.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what would you say if I told you that? Listen?
Speaker 1: I completed the book, but I listened to about twenty
Speaker 1: five percent of it as an audiobook.
Speaker 2: What's your reaction there?
Speaker 4: Okay, So it kind of seems like where you're going
Speaker 4: with this is that maybe Manny and devonor are trying
Speaker 4: to say that like your opposer or something. Yeah, but no,
Speaker 4: I actually I think this is like innovator.
Speaker 2: Yes. Well, which, there was a moment of the conversation
Speaker 2: you guys had last year where you mentioned how hard
Speaker 2: it was to get through some of the chapters. Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: Rich was very impressed by how quickly you had finished it.
Speaker 5: He's like, wow, you've read that in three weeks.
Speaker 4: So actually, wait, yeah, now I'm being swayed. Yeah, keep going, Devin,
Speaker 4: keep going.
Speaker 3: Noah just said yeah, And I remember to look on
Speaker 3: his face when he said it. I turned around during
Speaker 3: this part in the conversation because Rich was like, wow,
Speaker 3: that's really fast.
Speaker 5: You read it that fast, like three and.
Speaker 2: I was impressed.
Speaker 5: He was like yeah, And I looked at no Space
Speaker 5: and I could tell I was like, it looked like
Speaker 5: you were lying. Wow, it looks like something's happening in
Speaker 5: his eyes.
Speaker 3: But I'm like, that would be a weird, Like, no,
Speaker 3: he's not going to lie about reading a book.
Speaker 4: I just want to clarify my position now too. I
Speaker 4: thought I kind of I am feeling a little bit manipulated.
Speaker 4: I'm feeling like you were kind of playing into that
Speaker 4: idea of you are the book guy in.
Speaker 2: This in this relationship here listen. You asked the question,
Speaker 2: and I answered the question. I answered, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: feeling a little betrayed. Yeah, that's what I expected.
Speaker 4: It kind of seems like you were doing it for
Speaker 4: like nerd quote. I think the real question that you're
Speaker 4: not getting at is if you're if you are an
Speaker 4: audiobook person, are you going to be upfront about it?
Speaker 2: If you're like, I'll.
Speaker 4: Tell you this, yeah, this new book, like yeah, like
Speaker 4: I read this, but it's like, no, you you did it.
Speaker 4: You you listen to it. That's fine, but I think
Speaker 4: people need to be upfront. We need to normalize about audiobooks.
Speaker 1: Listen in the future, in a scenario like that rich
Speaker 1: where someone's prodding me for details on the speed and
Speaker 1: pace of my reading, I'm gonna go listen, do you
Speaker 1: have do you have a second? I'm gonna say, sit down,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna explain to you exactly which pages I read,
Speaker 1: what I listened to, and how thank you, and I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna come clean from now on. I'm not gonna,
Speaker 1: you know, just needs the shoulders say you know, like
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not that smart.
Speaker 2: You know whatever, it's like, We'll just move on.
Speaker 5: We need honesty in this country.
Speaker 1: By the way, since we recorded, Rich has become an
Speaker 1: avid audiobook listener.
Speaker 2: There's No such Thing Thing.
Speaker 1: No Such Thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman
Speaker 1: and Devin Joseph.
Speaker 2: Theme song is by Manny.
Speaker 1: Our guests this week where doctor Clinton Lassell and Rich Filoni.
Speaker 1: Thanks to our friends for their notes, Julia Lindsay Media
Speaker 1: de Graf, Katherine Isaac, Sarah Floyd, and SUTHIANPJ from Search Engine.
Speaker 1: Please visit No Such Thing Dot show to check out
Speaker 1: some audiobook recommendations from Rich. And Lastly, this was our
Speaker 1: first episode, so please make sure to follow and subscribe
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening, drop a five star review, and the
Speaker 1: next episode is live.
Speaker 2: Now here's a preview. I'm pretty confident I could land
Speaker 2: upon very Yeah, I think somewhere between somewhat and very confident.
Speaker 2: If someone's giving me instructions, I think I could do it.
Speaker 7: You might be able to just point slightly towards the
Speaker 7: runway with your control and what you.
Speaker 2: See, Oh that's the runwright. I'm looking at this thing