WEBVTT - Do audiobooks count as reading? 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.600 I'm Manny, I'm Noah. This is and this is no 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.240 such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.680 and yours by actually doing the research. Today's argument began 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.000 with a tweet the question do audiobooks count is reading? 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:15.640 I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't. 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:18.279 Do you actually comprehend content the same way when you're 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:19.720 hearing it versus reading it? 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:22.599 I feel like I forget what I read very quickly. 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:25.440 And lastly, I have a confession to make to a friend. 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.200 I'm going to tell you something now, Rich, okay, and 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:30.440 this is full transparency here. 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:32.040 What would you say if I told you. 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:40.519 There's no no such thing, no such thing, no such thing. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:50.839 I'll hop in here because I came across a tweet 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.800 that I dropped into the d MS, and the tweet 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.560 was do audiobooks count is reading? 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.720 And I just commented no, so many. 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.400 What do you think if someone tells me they read 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.800 something but they actually listened to it. I don't feel 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.600 like they're defrauding me or anything like that. I haven't 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:10.880 listened to many audiobooks, but if I did, I think 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:13.160 I would be okay telling someone that I've read them. 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:14.720 The end of the year and you're making a list 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.600 of all the books you've read, you would put Prince 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:20.640 Harry's book on. I would put Prince Harre you listen 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:22.760 to it exactly if I had listened to it. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:27.640 Okay, So now you obviously believe that listening to an 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:29.160 audiobook counts as reading. 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.039 Yeah, if you know I've listened to the Prince Harry 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:33.160 You're a Catcher in the Rye. 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:35.440 That's a book I've read. I know the book. 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:35.760 Okay. 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:37.959 So my goal this year was to read twenty four books. 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:40.040 I didn't read twenty four. I got to like twenty 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.520 twenty one. You're telling me if I listened to twenty 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:45.160 four audiobooks that this year would be the equivalent of 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:46.320 me reading twenty four books. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:48.480 Yeah, I would totally accept that. If you were like, 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:50.880 if you posted that is insane. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.640 You posted your listen, We're like, here's the twenty four 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.400 books I read. And we're talking about a semantic issue. 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:00.520 No, no, no. The question was do audio books count 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:01.680 as reading? Yeah? 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:03.720 Reading, But I guess it means what does reading mean 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:04.160 to you? 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:09.440 Reading means to me? What reading? Yeah? Exactly, It's like, 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:11.200 what is the definition of reading. 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.720 It's a very small view of what reading really is. 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.560 I think it's a very you know, reading is one thing, 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.239 which is reading, all right, But these are books. Huh, 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.840 there are audio books. Yeah, but it's the same, it's 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:25.640 the same content. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.320 We do you think people are obscuring the fact that 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:29.440 they listened to me? 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.639 Yeah, this is my whole The real reason I have 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.959 a real issue with this is because I think people 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.080 just need to be honest about how they're consuming media. 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.920 And I think the people who listen to audiobooks and 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.680 want to pretend that they read the books is because 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.120 they are slightly embarrassed that they listen to the book 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.360 and they didn't read it, because otherwise, why won't you 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:52.799 just say, yeah, I listened to that audiobook. This person 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.520 was clearly asking because she was putting together some sort 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.040 of lists end of the year. She didn't read as 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.359 many books as maybe she felt like she should have 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.680 that year, but she listened to some audio books and 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:04.080 she wanted to add them to the list. 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:06.480 So you want people to make two lists, then yeah, 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.040 what like if I put together It's like, I'm not 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:10.720 that interested in seeing any lists. 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:12.400 So now it's like you're gonna ask me to look 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:14.240 at two. I'm not saying medium. 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.000 I'm not saying that, right, Like you can you can 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.919 make one list and say here's the things I read 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:21.239 and listen to this year. 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.720 So I think a question for Devin here is what 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.880 is it about the act of reading that you feel 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:32.120 is more valuable than listening to an audiobook? 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.840 What is the difference between reading and like listening to 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.240 an audiobook? Is that like I can't read and walk 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.680 my dog at the same time, Right, I can't. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:40.880 Read, But would you if you could? 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.000 I mean, yeah, if I could, I would. 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.240 I mean, but. 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:50.160 It's like we talked about this the other day. People 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:50.920 don't read books. 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.280 Reading is not an easy thing to do, like making 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.640 time for reading, especially now having the intention span to read. 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.200 And I think no, rightfully or wrong for people look 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:01.800 at people who read a lot of books, and then 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.480 if I might, then someone who may read one book 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.000 a year, right, Like saying I read one hundred books 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:08.800 this year is very different than I listened to one 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:10.440 hundred audiobooks every morning. 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:10.960 I listen to. 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:15.320 Let's say, two hours of like between like NPR and 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:19.680 w NYC and like the daily Right. So if I said, okay, 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:21.480 I'm not going to do that every day. I'm just 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:24.760 gonna make those audio books. I can get through a 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:26.200 lot of audio books any year. 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.120 So basically this is like a work ethic thing. I mean, yeah, 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:30.520 you're looking at it as a time inge. 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:33.919 I mean I I do listen to the occasional audiobook, Okay, 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:35.799 I mostly read books. 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:37.840 Yeah, you know, in. 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:42.040 Your definition physical paperback books. I'm looking with my eyes. 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.479 It now feels like such a brave thing to say, Like, 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:47.600 I do listen occasionally. I keep a list just so 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:49.240 I can look at what I've read this year. 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:50.279 Okay, list. 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:51.880 I can look at that list, and I don't mark 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:54.480 off the difference. You know which ones you read, yeah, 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:55.720 and you know which ones you listen to. 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:59.920 So Devin is making a point about like transparency and honest. 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.800 But another question around this is like, whether you're reading 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.599 or listening, do you feel like the information is being 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:11.320 retained in the same way? For example, if Noah listened 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.760 to Killers of the Flower Moon and Devin read it, 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.320 do you feel like you're coming away with such a 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:18.360 different experience. 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.120 So I don't think like because I read a book 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:24.840 and Noah listened to a book, that means that I 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.520 necessarily have like retained the information better. I just think 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.000 it's like probably processed in a way that's different. But 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.520 I also like there's there's books that I read that 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.479 I don't remember very well. Like I sent y'all that 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.760 TikTok the other day about that woman talking about like 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:41.960 reading the book and then like instantly forgetting Am I 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.279 the only person who read a book loved the book 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:47.000 in about seventy two hours? 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:48.880 You'd have forgot everything that happened in that damn book. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:51.279 And that's why my friends be thinking that I'd just 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.040 be skimming through the pages because they fuck trying to 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:55.040 ask me about a book. 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:57.920 I can tell you what the fuck happened in that book. 0:05:58.000 --> 0:05:59.719 And if like there's some stuff that I read just 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.120 like fun that I'm not paying that close attention to, 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.919 like that happens and I instantly forget what happened. And 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.600 there's like some audio stuff that like I'll be listening 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:11.200 to that like maybe I'm paying a bit more attention 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.520 to like this American Life episode where I'll be able 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.320 to retain more information. So I don't know. I think 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:18.360 that's a long way of saying I think it depends. 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.280 I don't think like necessarily reading or listening to something 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:23.119 means you're going to retain the information better. 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:25.280 It can go both ways, like I've read books and 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:27.279 then reread them and then just you know, whether it's 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.640 just the mood you're in when you're doing it or whatever, 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:31.760 you might just be able to absorb the information better, 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.360 whether it's just like you're in a different headspace. And 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.760 then there's also books that like I've done both at 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.960 the same time, where like I'll have the physical copy, 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.600 but then I'll have the audiobook on my fo some 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:45.440 of it you read so long? Yeah, Like I remember 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.760 doing that with the Oppenheimer biography. 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.760 Oh wow. We had a conversation where Rich about it. 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:53.960 For context, Rich as a friend of ours we used 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:54.440 to work with. 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:56.719 I just want to reveal on the podcast here that 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:58.080 you didn't say I listened. 0:06:58.200 --> 0:06:59.320 I also listened to the audiobook. 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.520 Me. Well, I'm speaking my truth because that's how I feel. 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:04.520 It's it's the same thing. 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.080 The conversation was literally about how he couldn't get through 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.040 reading the book, what. 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.000 His habits are like, maybe he reads two books a year. 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:13.240 I read a lot of books. 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.920 I'd read that exact conversation. 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.880 Is my issue with people who want to claim that 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.360 they read audio books. It's like one man is saying, Wow, 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.560 it's really hard for me to get through reading this book, 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:27.480 and you're like, yeah, it was kind of easy for me. 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:28.200 I didn't like three. 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:32.200 Well, I didn't brag about it listening. He asked me 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:34.080 how long it took. I gave him an answer of a. 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.680 Time about some very important information, which is you listen 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:38.480 to half of it. 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.520 Yeah, well I know every fact in there, so I'm 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:44.760 not saying, you know, once again, it's not about comprehension. 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:46.360 To me, it is about comprehension. 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:48.920 We keep going back to this where it's like you're 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.080 talking about people being worried about how they're going to 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:51.680 be perceived. 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:54.880 Yes, right, that's kind of what this is actually about. 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:56.760 Yeah, this is about people's perce So it just depends 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.760 on how you want to present publicly. I guess I 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.120 don't like in that moment with Rich for example, I 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.600 wasn't being self conscious. I just wasn't thinking about it. 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.120 I was beyond being self conscious. I was on a 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.600 different plane. It was not even a thought in my 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:13.840 head to mention it because it's irrelevant to me. 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.720 Just to distill the argument, a little bit here. Basically, Devin, 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.200 you feel like people are self conscious about this because 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:25.440 they feel like listening to an audiobook is not as 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.240 prestigious as reading a book. 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.720 You got to see what's important to you. It's like 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.720 a challenge for me to like find time to read. 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:37.079 To me, there's something I don't know, still sacred about 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.640 getting outside of the sort of digital world we live 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.840 in to read words on a page. Well, you didn't 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.440 ask Noah how he feels about it about do you 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.000 think reading is more sacred than listening to an audiobook? 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:50.360 I can't say necessarily. 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:54.440 I think that, Like I think if you're actually focusing 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:56.960 on the words and focusing on listening to it, you 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:01.959 could still have the same experience, are a very similar experience, 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.080 if not the same one, But as far as comprehending 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.400 and connecting with it, I think generally you could even 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.840 even something that is like maybe on a more sentence 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.480 by sentence level, kind of that more literary sort of thing. 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:18.400 And to play Noah's advocate a little bit, you know, please, 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:23.400 like like the passing of information via word of mouth, 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.760 like that's long before books and writing, Like that's an 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.720 ancient tradition that's a right. I ever heard of the Odyssey. 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:35.200 DEVI Well, what what do you personally think, though you said, 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:38.880 I mean, at the end of the year, if you 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.959 read ten books versus listening to ten audiobooks, what do 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:43.320 you think is more valuable reading? 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.280 Okay, reading with us? We can't look, we can. 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:47.920 Look. 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.240 I think there's I think the thing here, right, is 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:53.080 that we all want to pretend like audiobooks. 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.000 Are just Again, it's like what we say is valuable, 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.640 That's what I would that's what I would prefer, and 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.080 that's how I would get the most out of these 0:09:59.080 --> 0:09:59.880 books for me. 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:00.560 Mm hmm. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.560 But I think this is that classic sort of like 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.520 everyone wants, you know, like we all want to pretend 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:09.360 to be like inclusive. 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:09.880 And blah blah blah. 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:11.800 That's what I'm doing when it comes down to it, 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.320 It's like, well, me, personally, I prefer to read. But 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:16.400 like if you want to say, like audio books is 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.720 reading good for you, you're saying I'm being too woke. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:22.839 Yeah, I think I think that. 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.560 Basically, it's like people absorb these things differently. 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.040 Agree, Yeah, just own the way you're absorbing it. Like 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.480 if you're listening to an audiobook, just be upfront about it. 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.880 So Devin's main concern is more about the presentation of 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.400 it all. He thinks people are embarrassed to admit that 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.760 they listen to books because it's quote unquote easier than reading. 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:47.520 So we're going to do a couple of things. Now, 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:49.520 We're going to do a test to see how reading 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:52.480 stacks up versus listening as far as retaining information. And 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:54.000 I'm going to try to talk to an expert about 0:10:54.000 --> 0:11:00.120 all of this stuff. 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.560 All right, we're back. I'm Noah Manny Devin. 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.439 Last time we spoke, we were arguing about whether or 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.040 not audiobooks count as reading. 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.520 So we just really quickly say where we stand. 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:13.120 Devin, Why don't you say where you stand? 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.160 Audiobooks do not count as reading. They count as listening 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.120 to audiobooks. 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.200 And to me, they're the same. You get all the 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:22.920 same stuff out of them, so it's reading to me. 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:24.719 Then, I remember, what do you use in on this, man? 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.040 I remember being kind of agnostic. 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:27.440 I think. 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:29.720 So what we've done since then is I wanted to 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:31.840 get some real answers on this. I reached out to 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:33.920 an expert on the issue. I wanted to find out 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.080 how reading comprehension is actually studied and what differences there 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:38.400 are between reading and listening. 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.680 My name is Virginia Clinton LaSelle. I'm an Associate professor 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:45.520 of Educational Foundations and Research at the University of North Dakota, 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:51.640 and I specialize in digital reading and flexible reading modalities. 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.480 She published a meta analysis a few years ago looking 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.560 at forty six different reading versus listening studies, oh with 0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:59.720 over forty six hundred participants, so she's kind of the 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:01.920 perfect person to ask about this. She had an interesting 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.480 motivation for why she started the study to begin with. 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.400 I will say my motivation for this study was I 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:11.720 was in a book club on campus and somebody very 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:17.040 sheepishly sad, I've been listening to the audiobook. Oh I'm sorry, Like, 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:19.920 and I've been. I've been doing so much driving it 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:20.920 just worked better. 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:22.520 And I remember just. 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.120 Thinking, why are you so embarrassed about that? 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.120 We're all busy academics. 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.280 We're doing something extra, you know, you're meeting and talking 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:32.760 about it and contributing. 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:37.160 I've learned something. After that, after that SoundBite, I'm on, 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.440 if you're in a book reaction, like, I'm like, okay, 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:44.959 I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't. 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:46.719 You're in a book club. 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:48.000 The whole book. 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.800 If she's able to come and actually say things difference. 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.360 I get like the information relaying, but that feels like 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.439 a book club feels like kind of a sacred. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.160 Yeah. But I guess the point is like if she 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.320 hadn't said that, would the other people in the group 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:05.360 even know this thing? 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:07.080 Was like, what are you end the book club for it? 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.959 Because you all read these pages or because you're reading 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.360 this book together and learning about the story or whatever. 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:14.920 It's like, if you're able to talk about it, then 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:15.599 it doesn't. 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.640 I viewed as twofold right, Like the book club holds 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:23.720 you like accountable for Okay, I'm going to have to 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:25.440 finish this thing because I'm gonna have to go and 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:27.679 talk to people about it. So it forces you to 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.280 make time to read the book. To your point, I 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.320 think in terms of the discussions, sure, I don't care 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.560 if you've you know, like I can talk to I 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:38.760 could talk to someone about a book if I've read 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:39.640 it and they've listened to it. 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:41.880 And I'm not gonna be like, I'm sorry speak to people 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:42.680 who have read the book. 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.520 You're not like the book club goes it doesn't go 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:48.720 any differently if you listen or read it, but it 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.320 just feels like a weird for whatever reason, that struck 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:53.280 me as like wow in a book club. 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:53.640 Yeah. 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.200 I asked her what these experiments typically look like, and 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.160 it's pretty simple. The participants will read or listen to 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.560 a selected tech. Sometimes there will be different parameters, like 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.920 you have thirty minutes to do it, or it'll kind 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:06.400 of shift you through one phrase at a time to 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.840 keep you at a certain pace, and then you'll answer 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.559 multiple choice questions or do something like write down everything 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:13.520 you remember. So there's a variance there as far as 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.480 how difficult the testing is, whether it's looking for simple 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.120 stuff or kind of taking the next step in inferring 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.240 and applying more knowledge to it. It'd typically be something 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.480 where one group reads something one week and then they 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.360 come back the next week and listen to something, so 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.440 you can compare the same people's scores in each mode 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:32.560 out anyway, we did our own small version of that. Now, 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.240 obviously a real study wouldn't just be me listening versus 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.240 Devin reading. It would be us doing both of them 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.920 right and then testing. But this is more to prove 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.200 a point and to be petty. So we just did 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.800 a simple one like this. We both read a short 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.080 story called The Lottery by Shirley Jackson, and then we 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:50.960 took a short I think it's definitely like for a 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:56.040 high school class. Okay, choice multiple choice questionnaire on it. 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:58.760 So I think we should start with Devin's score. 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:04.120 Yeah, Evan read read the story using a visual modality. 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.160 So I got one wrong. 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:09.360 Wow, that's pretty good. 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:14.000 Okay, So what my score was eight? One wrong? So 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:15.800 I got a ninety five percent. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.720 That's great. Wow, that's strong a strong start. No, how 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.520 did you do on your test? Well, I got. 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:29.840 I read the book using a you know, auditory modality. 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.120 And I got an eighty nine percent. I got two 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.840 questions wrong, damn on two only two, So it's kind 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.880 of the arbiter here. I think it does mean something 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:42.080 that Devin got one more question right than Noah. However, 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.920 I'm I'm thinking like one question to me, I don't 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.440 know if I can attribute that to like reading being 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.480 that much better of a method of information, where. 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.480 He might just be smarter, Devin might just be built different. 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:57.760 We have not thought about that. 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:02.120 This specific test. I don't know if this the results 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.800 like stats wise, Devin wins. But I just don't know 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.840 if I can really say which mode is retaining the 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:16.560 information better than the other one. So I asked doctor 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.040 Clinton Lassell to explain what's going on in your brain 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:19.760 when you're reading. 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.800 There's two processes that are going on in our brain. 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.800 In what's called the simple view of reading, there's decoding, 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.800 where you look at the text and you're able to 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.880 determine what those words are, so you can see the word, 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.120 the thch the letters, and then you know that means 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:42.560 the And then there's the comprehension aspect, where you're taking 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.280 the meaning from the text and creating an idea of 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.440 what the whole text is about. That's called a mental 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:54.640 representation of the text, and that requires things like vocabulary 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.600 and background knowledge and making connections from one idea to 0:16:58.680 --> 0:16:59.160 the next. 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.000 That kind of lays out the two step process that 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.639 goes on when you're taking in a text. I asked, 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.240 you know the big question, which is what's the difference 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.800 comprehension wise between reading versus listening. 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:15.240 They're honestly not that different. Obviously, the decoding process isn't there. 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.800 You're not having to look at words and figure out 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:24.520 what those letters mean, but instead you're listening and you 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:28.320 have to figure out those sounds make words. Now, because 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:32.200 we learn how to listen from infancy, but we learned 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.560 how to read a little bit later in our lives, 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:39.440 we forget that that listening process actually takes brain power 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.480 and actually takes efforts. So I think that's why a 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:47.359 lot of times there's this misconception that listening to an 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.200 audiobook is cheating or it's not really reading a book 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:57.080 or learning about a content area, and that just doesn't 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.600 seem to be the case definitely, And it comes to 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.160 memory for what you read. There's really no difference between 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.919 an audio book and a visual book. 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:11.159 So you heard it there. Reading and listening are actually 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.000 very similar. But listening is so much more natural to 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.600 us since we've been doing it longer than we've been reading. Obviously, 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:19.360 now we kind of overlook the work that we do 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.640 to turn sounds we hear into words with meaning. 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:23.560 That's fair, which I thought was really interesting. And I 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.320 suppose that's the other side of the exam that you 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.720 two did, which is like, yes, Devin got one more 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.320 question correct, but Noah still got seventeen out of nineteen. Yeah, 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.000 So it's not like listening to audio. If I came 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:37.760