1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah. This is and this is no 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: and yours by actually doing the research. Today's argument began 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: with a tweet the question do audiobooks count is reading? 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't. 6 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: Do you actually comprehend content the same way when you're 7 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: hearing it versus reading it? 8 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 3: I feel like I forget what I read very quickly. 9 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 2: And lastly, I have a confession to make to a friend. 10 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something now, Rich, okay, and 11 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: this is full transparency here. 12 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 2: What would you say if I told you. 13 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 4: There's no no such thing, no such thing, no such thing. 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 3: I'll hop in here because I came across a tweet 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 3: that I dropped into the d MS, and the tweet 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 3: was do audiobooks count is reading? 17 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 5: And I just commented no, so many. 18 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 2: What do you think if someone tells me they read 19 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: something but they actually listened to it. I don't feel 20 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 2: like they're defrauding me or anything like that. I haven't 21 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 2: listened to many audiobooks, but if I did, I think 22 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: I would be okay telling someone that I've read them. 23 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: The end of the year and you're making a list 24 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: of all the books you've read, you would put Prince 25 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: Harry's book on. I would put Prince Harre you listen 26 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 2: to it exactly if I had listened to it. 27 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 3: Okay, So now you obviously believe that listening to an 28 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 3: audiobook counts as reading. 29 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you know I've listened to the Prince Harry 30 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: You're a Catcher in the Rye. 31 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: That's a book I've read. I know the book. 32 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 5: Okay. 33 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 3: So my goal this year was to read twenty four books. 34 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 3: I didn't read twenty four. I got to like twenty 35 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 3: twenty one. You're telling me if I listened to twenty 36 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 3: four audiobooks that this year would be the equivalent of 37 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 3: me reading twenty four books. 38 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would totally accept that. If you were like, 39 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 2: if you posted that is insane. 40 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: You posted your listen, We're like, here's the twenty four 41 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: books I read. And we're talking about a semantic issue. 42 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 5: No, no, no. The question was do audio books count 43 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 5: as reading? Yeah? 44 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: Reading, But I guess it means what does reading mean 45 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 2: to you? 46 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 5: Reading means to me? What reading? Yeah? Exactly, It's like, 47 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 5: what is the definition of reading. 48 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: It's a very small view of what reading really is. 49 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: I think it's a very you know, reading is one thing, 50 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 3: which is reading, all right, But these are books. Huh, 51 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 3: there are audio books. Yeah, but it's the same, it's 52 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 3: the same content. 53 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: We do you think people are obscuring the fact that 54 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: they listened to me? 55 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is my whole The real reason I have 56 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 3: a real issue with this is because I think people 57 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 3: just need to be honest about how they're consuming media. 58 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 3: And I think the people who listen to audiobooks and 59 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 3: want to pretend that they read the books is because 60 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: they are slightly embarrassed that they listen to the book 61 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 3: and they didn't read it, because otherwise, why won't you 62 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 3: just say, yeah, I listened to that audiobook. This person 63 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 3: was clearly asking because she was putting together some sort 64 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: of lists end of the year. She didn't read as 65 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 3: many books as maybe she felt like she should have 66 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 3: that year, but she listened to some audio books and 67 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 3: she wanted to add them to the list. 68 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: So you want people to make two lists, then yeah, 69 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: what like if I put together It's like, I'm not 70 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: that interested in seeing any lists. 71 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: So now it's like you're gonna ask me to look 72 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: at two. I'm not saying medium. 73 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: I'm not saying that, right, Like you can you can 74 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 3: make one list and say here's the things I read 75 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 3: and listen to this year. 76 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: So I think a question for Devin here is what 77 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: is it about the act of reading that you feel 78 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 2: is more valuable than listening to an audiobook? 79 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 3: What is the difference between reading and like listening to 80 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 3: an audiobook? Is that like I can't read and walk 81 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 3: my dog at the same time, Right, I can't. 82 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 2: Read, But would you if you could? 83 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, if I could, I would. 84 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: I mean, but. 85 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 5: It's like we talked about this the other day. People 86 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 5: don't read books. 87 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 3: Reading is not an easy thing to do, like making 88 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 3: time for reading, especially now having the intention span to read. 89 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 3: And I think no, rightfully or wrong for people look 90 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: at people who read a lot of books, and then 91 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 3: if I might, then someone who may read one book 92 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 3: a year, right, Like saying I read one hundred books 93 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 3: this year is very different than I listened to one 94 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 3: hundred audiobooks every morning. 95 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 5: I listen to. 96 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 3: Let's say, two hours of like between like NPR and 97 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: w NYC and like the daily Right. So if I said, okay, 98 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 3: I'm not going to do that every day. I'm just 99 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: gonna make those audio books. I can get through a 100 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 3: lot of audio books any year. 101 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 2: So basically this is like a work ethic thing. I mean, yeah, 102 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: you're looking at it as a time inge. 103 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 1: I mean I I do listen to the occasional audiobook, Okay, 104 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 1: I mostly read books. 105 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, in. 106 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: Your definition physical paperback books. I'm looking with my eyes. 107 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: It now feels like such a brave thing to say, Like, 108 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 2: I do listen occasionally. I keep a list just so 109 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 2: I can look at what I've read this year. 110 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 5: Okay, list. 111 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: I can look at that list, and I don't mark 112 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: off the difference. You know which ones you read, yeah, 113 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: and you know which ones you listen to. 114 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: So Devin is making a point about like transparency and honest. 115 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: But another question around this is like, whether you're reading 116 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: or listening, do you feel like the information is being 117 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: retained in the same way? For example, if Noah listened 118 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 2: to Killers of the Flower Moon and Devin read it, 119 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: do you feel like you're coming away with such a 120 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 2: different experience. 121 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 3: So I don't think like because I read a book 122 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 3: and Noah listened to a book, that means that I 123 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 3: necessarily have like retained the information better. I just think 124 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 3: it's like probably processed in a way that's different. But 125 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 3: I also like there's there's books that I read that 126 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 3: I don't remember very well. Like I sent y'all that 127 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 3: TikTok the other day about that woman talking about like 128 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 3: reading the book and then like instantly forgetting Am I 129 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 3: the only person who read a book loved the book 130 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 3: in about seventy two hours? 131 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: You'd have forgot everything that happened in that damn book. 132 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 3: And that's why my friends be thinking that I'd just 133 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 3: be skimming through the pages because they fuck trying to 134 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 3: ask me about a book. 135 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 5: I can tell you what the fuck happened in that book. 136 00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 3: And if like there's some stuff that I read just 137 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: like fun that I'm not paying that close attention to, 138 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 3: like that happens and I instantly forget what happened. And 139 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 3: there's like some audio stuff that like I'll be listening 140 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 3: to that like maybe I'm paying a bit more attention 141 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 3: to like this American Life episode where I'll be able 142 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 3: to retain more information. So I don't know. I think 143 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 3: that's a long way of saying I think it depends. 144 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 3: I don't think like necessarily reading or listening to something 145 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,119 Speaker 3: means you're going to retain the information better. 146 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: It can go both ways, like I've read books and 147 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: then reread them and then just you know, whether it's 148 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: just the mood you're in when you're doing it or whatever, 149 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: you might just be able to absorb the information better, 150 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: whether it's just like you're in a different headspace. And 151 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: then there's also books that like I've done both at 152 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: the same time, where like I'll have the physical copy, 153 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: but then I'll have the audiobook on my fo some 154 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: of it you read so long? Yeah, Like I remember 155 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: doing that with the Oppenheimer biography. 156 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 5: Oh wow. We had a conversation where Rich about it. 157 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: For context, Rich as a friend of ours we used 158 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: to work with. 159 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 3: I just want to reveal on the podcast here that 160 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 3: you didn't say I listened. 161 00:06:58,200 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 5: I also listened to the audiobook. 162 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: Me. Well, I'm speaking my truth because that's how I feel. 163 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: It's it's the same thing. 164 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 3: The conversation was literally about how he couldn't get through 165 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 3: reading the book, what. 166 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: His habits are like, maybe he reads two books a year. 167 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: I read a lot of books. 168 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 5: I'd read that exact conversation. 169 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 3: Is my issue with people who want to claim that 170 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 3: they read audio books. It's like one man is saying, Wow, 171 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 3: it's really hard for me to get through reading this book, 172 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 3: and you're like, yeah, it was kind of easy for me. 173 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 5: I didn't like three. 174 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: Well, I didn't brag about it listening. He asked me 175 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: how long it took. I gave him an answer of a. 176 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 3: Time about some very important information, which is you listen 177 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 3: to half of it. 178 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I know every fact in there, so I'm 179 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: not saying, you know, once again, it's not about comprehension. 180 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: To me, it is about comprehension. 181 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: We keep going back to this where it's like you're 182 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: talking about people being worried about how they're going to 183 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: be perceived. 184 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: Yes, right, that's kind of what this is actually about. 185 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is about people's perce So it just depends 186 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: on how you want to present publicly. I guess I 187 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: don't like in that moment with Rich for example, I 188 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: wasn't being self conscious. I just wasn't thinking about it. 189 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: I was beyond being self conscious. I was on a 190 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: different plane. It was not even a thought in my 191 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: head to mention it because it's irrelevant to me. 192 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: Just to distill the argument, a little bit here. Basically, Devin, 193 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: you feel like people are self conscious about this because 194 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: they feel like listening to an audiobook is not as 195 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: prestigious as reading a book. 196 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 5: You got to see what's important to you. It's like 197 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 5: a challenge for me to like find time to read. 198 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 3: To me, there's something I don't know, still sacred about 199 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 3: getting outside of the sort of digital world we live 200 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 3: in to read words on a page. Well, you didn't 201 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 3: ask Noah how he feels about it about do you 202 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 3: think reading is more sacred than listening to an audiobook? 203 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: I can't say necessarily. 204 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: I think that, Like I think if you're actually focusing 205 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: on the words and focusing on listening to it, you 206 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 1: could still have the same experience, are a very similar experience, 207 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: if not the same one, But as far as comprehending 208 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: and connecting with it, I think generally you could even 209 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: even something that is like maybe on a more sentence 210 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: by sentence level, kind of that more literary sort of thing. 211 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: And to play Noah's advocate a little bit, you know, please, 212 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: like like the passing of information via word of mouth, 213 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 2: like that's long before books and writing, Like that's an 214 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 2: ancient tradition that's a right. I ever heard of the Odyssey. 215 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 6: DEVI Well, what what do you personally think, though you said, 216 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 6: I mean, at the end of the year, if you 217 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 6: read ten books versus listening to ten audiobooks, what do 218 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 6: you think is more valuable reading? 219 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: Okay, reading with us? We can't look, we can. 220 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 5: Look. 221 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 3: I think there's I think the thing here, right, is 222 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 3: that we all want to pretend like audiobooks. 223 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: Are just Again, it's like what we say is valuable, 224 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: That's what I would that's what I would prefer, and 225 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: that's how I would get the most out of these 226 00:09:59,080 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: books for me. 227 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 5: Mm hmm. 228 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 3: But I think this is that classic sort of like 229 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 3: everyone wants, you know, like we all want to pretend 230 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 3: to be like inclusive. 231 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 5: And blah blah blah. 232 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 3: That's what I'm doing when it comes down to it, 233 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 3: It's like, well, me, personally, I prefer to read. But 234 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 3: like if you want to say, like audio books is 235 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 3: reading good for you, you're saying I'm being too woke. 236 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I think that. 237 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: Basically, it's like people absorb these things differently. 238 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 3: Agree, Yeah, just own the way you're absorbing it. Like 239 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 3: if you're listening to an audiobook, just be upfront about it. 240 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: So Devin's main concern is more about the presentation of 241 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: it all. He thinks people are embarrassed to admit that 242 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: they listen to books because it's quote unquote easier than reading. 243 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: So we're going to do a couple of things. Now, 244 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: We're going to do a test to see how reading 245 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: stacks up versus listening as far as retaining information. And 246 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to try to talk to an expert about 247 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: all of this stuff. 248 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 2: All right, we're back. I'm Noah Manny Devin. 249 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: Last time we spoke, we were arguing about whether or 250 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: not audiobooks count as reading. 251 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 5: So we just really quickly say where we stand. 252 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 2: Devin, Why don't you say where you stand? 253 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 3: Audiobooks do not count as reading. They count as listening 254 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: to audiobooks. 255 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: And to me, they're the same. You get all the 256 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: same stuff out of them, so it's reading to me. 257 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 5: Then, I remember, what do you use in on this, man? 258 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: I remember being kind of agnostic. 259 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 5: I think. 260 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: So what we've done since then is I wanted to 261 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: get some real answers on this. I reached out to 262 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: an expert on the issue. I wanted to find out 263 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: how reading comprehension is actually studied and what differences there 264 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: are between reading and listening. 265 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 7: My name is Virginia Clinton LaSelle. I'm an Associate professor 266 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 7: of Educational Foundations and Research at the University of North Dakota, 267 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 7: and I specialize in digital reading and flexible reading modalities. 268 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: She published a meta analysis a few years ago looking 269 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: at forty six different reading versus listening studies, oh with 270 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: over forty six hundred participants, so she's kind of the 271 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: perfect person to ask about this. She had an interesting 272 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: motivation for why she started the study to begin with. 273 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 7: I will say my motivation for this study was I 274 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 7: was in a book club on campus and somebody very 275 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 7: sheepishly sad, I've been listening to the audiobook. Oh I'm sorry, Like, 276 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 7: and I've been. I've been doing so much driving it 277 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 7: just worked better. 278 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: And I remember just. 279 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 7: Thinking, why are you so embarrassed about that? 280 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: We're all busy academics. 281 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 7: We're doing something extra, you know, you're meeting and talking 282 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 7: about it and contributing. 283 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: I've learned something. After that, after that SoundBite, I'm on, 284 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 2: if you're in a book reaction, like, I'm like, okay, 285 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 2: I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't. 286 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 2: You're in a book club. 287 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 5: The whole book. 288 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: If she's able to come and actually say things difference. 289 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: I get like the information relaying, but that feels like 290 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 2: a book club feels like kind of a sacred. 291 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. But I guess the point is like if she 292 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: hadn't said that, would the other people in the group 293 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: even know this thing? 294 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 2: Was like, what are you end the book club for it? 295 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: Because you all read these pages or because you're reading 296 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: this book together and learning about the story or whatever. 297 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: It's like, if you're able to talk about it, then 298 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:15,599 Speaker 1: it doesn't. 299 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 3: I viewed as twofold right, Like the book club holds 300 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 3: you like accountable for Okay, I'm going to have to 301 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 3: finish this thing because I'm gonna have to go and 302 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 3: talk to people about it. So it forces you to 303 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 3: make time to read the book. To your point, I 304 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 3: think in terms of the discussions, sure, I don't care 305 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 3: if you've you know, like I can talk to I 306 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 3: could talk to someone about a book if I've read 307 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 3: it and they've listened to it. 308 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 5: And I'm not gonna be like, I'm sorry speak to people 309 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 5: who have read the book. 310 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 2: You're not like the book club goes it doesn't go 311 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 2: any differently if you listen or read it, but it 312 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 2: just feels like a weird for whatever reason, that struck 313 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: me as like wow in a book club. 314 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 5: Yeah. 315 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: I asked her what these experiments typically look like, and 316 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: it's pretty simple. The participants will read or listen to 317 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: a selected tech. Sometimes there will be different parameters, like 318 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: you have thirty minutes to do it, or it'll kind 319 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: of shift you through one phrase at a time to 320 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: keep you at a certain pace, and then you'll answer 321 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: multiple choice questions or do something like write down everything 322 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: you remember. So there's a variance there as far as 323 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: how difficult the testing is, whether it's looking for simple 324 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: stuff or kind of taking the next step in inferring 325 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: and applying more knowledge to it. It'd typically be something 326 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: where one group reads something one week and then they 327 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: come back the next week and listen to something, so 328 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: you can compare the same people's scores in each mode 329 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: out anyway, we did our own small version of that. Now, 330 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: obviously a real study wouldn't just be me listening versus 331 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: Devin reading. It would be us doing both of them 332 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: right and then testing. But this is more to prove 333 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: a point and to be petty. So we just did 334 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: a simple one like this. We both read a short 335 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: story called The Lottery by Shirley Jackson, and then we 336 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: took a short I think it's definitely like for a 337 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: high school class. Okay, choice multiple choice questionnaire on it. 338 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 2: So I think we should start with Devin's score. 339 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, Evan read read the story using a visual modality. 340 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 5: So I got one wrong. 341 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: Wow, that's pretty good. 342 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 5: Okay, So what my score was eight? One wrong? So 343 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 5: I got a ninety five percent. 344 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: That's great. Wow, that's strong a strong start. No, how 345 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: did you do on your test? Well, I got. 346 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: I read the book using a you know, auditory modality. 347 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: And I got an eighty nine percent. I got two 348 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: questions wrong, damn on two only two, So it's kind 349 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 2: of the arbiter here. I think it does mean something 350 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: that Devin got one more question right than Noah. However, 351 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 2: I'm I'm thinking like one question to me, I don't 352 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: know if I can attribute that to like reading being 353 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: that much better of a method of information, where. 354 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: He might just be smarter, Devin might just be built different. 355 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: We have not thought about that. 356 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 2: This specific test. I don't know if this the results 357 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: like stats wise, Devin wins. But I just don't know 358 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 2: if I can really say which mode is retaining the 359 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: information better than the other one. So I asked doctor 360 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: Clinton Lassell to explain what's going on in your brain 361 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 2: when you're reading. 362 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 7: There's two processes that are going on in our brain. 363 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 7: In what's called the simple view of reading, there's decoding, 364 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 7: where you look at the text and you're able to 365 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 7: determine what those words are, so you can see the word, 366 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 7: the thch the letters, and then you know that means 367 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 7: the And then there's the comprehension aspect, where you're taking 368 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 7: the meaning from the text and creating an idea of 369 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 7: what the whole text is about. That's called a mental 370 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 7: representation of the text, and that requires things like vocabulary 371 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 7: and background knowledge and making connections from one idea to 372 00:16:58,680 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 7: the next. 373 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: That kind of lays out the two step process that 374 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: goes on when you're taking in a text. I asked, 375 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: you know the big question, which is what's the difference 376 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: comprehension wise between reading versus listening. 377 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 7: They're honestly not that different. Obviously, the decoding process isn't there. 378 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 7: You're not having to look at words and figure out 379 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 7: what those letters mean, but instead you're listening and you 380 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 7: have to figure out those sounds make words. Now, because 381 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 7: we learn how to listen from infancy, but we learned 382 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 7: how to read a little bit later in our lives, 383 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 7: we forget that that listening process actually takes brain power 384 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 7: and actually takes efforts. So I think that's why a 385 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 7: lot of times there's this misconception that listening to an 386 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 7: audiobook is cheating or it's not really reading a book 387 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 7: or learning about a content area, and that just doesn't 388 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 7: seem to be the case definitely, And it comes to 389 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 7: memory for what you read. There's really no difference between 390 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 7: an audio book and a visual book. 391 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: So you heard it there. Reading and listening are actually 392 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: very similar. But listening is so much more natural to 393 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: us since we've been doing it longer than we've been reading. Obviously, 394 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 1: now we kind of overlook the work that we do 395 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: to turn sounds we hear into words with meaning. 396 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: That's fair, which I thought was really interesting. And I 397 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: suppose that's the other side of the exam that you 398 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: two did, which is like, yes, Devin got one more 399 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 2: question correct, but Noah still got seventeen out of nineteen. Yeah, 400 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: So it's not like listening to audio. If I came 401 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: in ten of. 402 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: Those right out of yeah, you know, I wouldn't be 403 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: here sitting talking to you guys. I'd be like, we're 404 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: scrapping this episode too, shame. One thing she does mention 405 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: is like, yeah, when we're talking about more complicated sorts 406 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: of things, they do see more improvement for visual reading. 407 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: Part of it is like you're more likely to go 408 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,479 Speaker 1: back and reread things even if you don't think about it. 409 00:18:58,480 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: So like on a page, you probably. 410 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: Reread it few sentences, even if you don't feel like, oh, 411 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: actually I'm going back or even pausing. 412 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, like that's what I was thinking about when I 413 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 3: was doing this test. It's like I was stopping and 414 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 3: like okay and saying to myself, Okay, gotta remember that 415 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 3: character's name because it probably will come up and it was, 416 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 3: and then reading again. Whereas if you listen to an audiobook, yeah, 417 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 3: you can pause and rewind, but it's like it's a 418 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 3: lot more complicated of a process. 419 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: She also said to where we're talking about driving and 420 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: this sort of thing, there's obviously different levels of distraction. 421 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: So it's like you can be distracted reading a paper book. 422 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: If like your kid's running up to you and bugging 423 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: you all the time or whatever. You know, your phone's 424 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: next to you and going off in the same way. 425 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 1: Where if you're driving and you're going down a new 426 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: route that you don't know and you have a book on, yeah, 427 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: you're probably not going to get a lot of it. 428 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: But if you're doing your normal commute and it's like 429 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: your clarney know what it is, you're not your brain 430 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: is not even thinking about it at that point, it's 431 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: probably about equal, okay. So multitasking in general lowers comprehension 432 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: and just takes longer to. 433 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: Pick up that stuff. 434 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: She also mentioned some other reasons that audiobooks could be 435 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: a an option. 436 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 7: I know, also, there's a lot of functional diversity. So 437 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 7: obviously if you're visually impaired, audiobooks are going to be 438 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 7: a better option for the most part. But there's a 439 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 7: lot of other functionally diverse individuals, you know, things like 440 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 7: having battlethritis. Holding a book is painful, listening to a 441 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 7: book is not. There's a bill curve of how active 442 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 7: and how much somebody moves in general, and you know, 443 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 7: people like my daughter don't have ADHD, but they are 444 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 7: just more active individuals. So people with ADHD who really 445 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,239 Speaker 7: do have a hard time sitting still find that if 446 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 7: they're doing some kind of multitasking that doesn't take cognitive effort, 447 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 7: like folding the laundry or washing the dishes, that having 448 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 7: that physical movement keeps their body calm so they're able 449 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 7: to listen and really enjoy the book. Whereas holding a book, 450 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 7: I mean, there's some things you can do, like you 451 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 7: can ride a stationary bike or do a stair stepper, 452 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 7: but you're a lot more limited as far as your mobility. 453 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: She ended up bringing up about schools and reading loss, 454 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: where you know, I'm asking about all these different things, 455 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: and she's like, yeah, well, like especially when you're talking 456 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: with students, like, ultimately you just want them to read. 457 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: However they're going to actually read it, because that's going 458 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: to be better than if they just totally skip the 459 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: assignment because it's only in a textbook. And she basically says, 460 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: unless the lesson is about is about to teach a 461 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: reading skill or something like that's the point of it, 462 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: then ideally the student just has whatever option they're actually going. 463 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 7: To do, is the learning objective teaching them something specific 464 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 7: to reading? Or is it about the content or the 465 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 7: story structure, or the plot or the background knowledge. If 466 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 7: it's the learning injectives don't have anything to do with 467 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 7: the actual modality specific language skills, then if an option 468 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 7: is available, giving that option would probably be a good idea. 469 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: That's kind of her view as a educator. The more 470 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: you read, the better you read, and that just goes 471 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: for everything. 472 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 3: And she says the more you read in terms of 473 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 3: like actual reading or your your pretender reading. 474 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 2: Reading, the more you read, the better you're a good 475 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 2: doctor there, Yeah, yeah, good doctor. So those are my 476 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: main takeaways. 477 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: So I mean, I guess the big question is does 478 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: this change your your opinions on this at all? 479 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 5: Manny? 480 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: Why don't you go first? As we know at the 481 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 2: beginning of this, I was kind of ambivalent. I've never 482 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 2: minded when someone, I guess I've never known actually, so 483 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: someone could have told me that they read a book 484 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 2: and they could have lied, probably probably lied, But if 485 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,959 Speaker 2: they were lying, I don't think I would have minded. 486 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 2: Now I do care, but I'm still in the middle 487 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 2: because I don't. I don't mind, like I truly don't 488 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: mind how people will describe how they read things. So 489 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 2: I guess that puts me on no aside. Are you 490 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 2: surprised by Yeah, what we found out I got. I 491 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 2: was surprised to hear that listening to a book is 492 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: essentially the same comprehension process as reading a book. And 493 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 2: so someone's listening to a book and they say they 494 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: want they read it, if they want to say they 495 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: read it, I don't have any problem with it. 496 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'll say, even as a you know, 497 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: the audiobook advocate here, I was a bit surprised at 498 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: the comprehension levels were essentially the same. I kind of 499 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,959 Speaker 1: expected that reading on paper would be a lot higher 500 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: if there was going to be a difference, So I 501 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: was surprised when when I learned that that there's not 502 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: that much of a difference. But yeah, I mean, even 503 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: as someone who would listen for me, it felt like 504 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: I definitely get more out of the page. But I'm 505 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: finding out that basically if I actually focused on an audiobook, 506 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: I would get pretty much exactly the same, which was instructive. 507 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: And then, Devin, I imagine that you still still feel 508 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: like people should be upfront about whether they read or listened. 509 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: But do you feel any differently about like that mode, 510 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: like does it do you feel differently? Do you feel 511 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: do you have more respect for people who listen to 512 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: books knowing that they're adding the same information. 513 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 3: I think, See, I know it came up very strong 514 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 3: because I still feel very strongly that people who listen 515 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 3: to audiobooks should just say they listened to the audiobooks. 516 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 5: But for me, it was never about the comprehension part. 517 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 3: Because like I said, there's like some of the stuff 518 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 3: that I consume, I feel like the best is audio 519 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 3: based stuff, Like that's the stuff that like keeps my 520 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 3: attention at times the best. Like it's the mode that 521 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 3: like I had default to in terms of like entertainment. Right, 522 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 3: So it was never to me about comprehension. It is 523 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 3: interesting and actually see like okay, yeah, these are actually 524 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 3: very similar, like she said, they're you know, obviously there 525 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 3: are some specifics based on how distracted you are or 526 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 3: caveats as today, but so I'm not that surprised that 527 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 3: comprehension is pretty similar. But I still feel like knowing 528 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 3: that you should feel even more empowered to go up 529 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 3: to someone and said, I listened. 530 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 5: To the audiobook. What are you going to say? Like 531 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 5: I didn't comprehend the information in the same way. 532 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: Well, I do say that as far as if I 533 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: came across someone say I'm having an open conversation now 534 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: and it comes out. 535 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 2: I listened to it. Yeah, I read an audiobook. 536 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: I think I now I'd be like, well, actually, first 537 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: of all, you know, listen to this podcast. But also 538 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: I'd probably be like, oh, you might be surprised to 539 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: learn that it's actually, you know, the. 540 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 2: Same same COMPREHENSI as far as comprehension. 541 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 3: But so, you know, maybe for me still there is 542 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 3: something about reading, the ritual of doing it right, the 543 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 3: fact that you can't do a while doing other things. 544 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's still holds a special place. 545 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 3: But yeah, you know, if someone wants to come at 546 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 3: you saying like you're an idiot because you listen to 547 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 3: the thing, it's like, no. 548 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, actually I'm not. 549 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: I'm an idiot for other reasons, not because of that. 550 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 2: I think the audiobook Listen of the World, after listening 551 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: to this episode will feel more empowered to be more transparent. 552 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: I've got to lie about how they consumed that book. Yes, 553 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 2: and I think that's a beautiful thing. 554 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 5: Exactly we changed the world. Before we end the episode, 555 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 5: I think we need to do one more thing. 556 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 2: I think I know what you're talking about. I don't 557 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: think this is necessary. 558 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 5: I think we need to call over it. 559 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: All right, let's do it. 560 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 5: Rich. 561 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: Do you remember last year we got burrito's? Yeah, and 562 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: then we I think we went bowling. 563 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 4: We did go bowling, I remember vividly. 564 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: Do you remember what we talked about while we were 565 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: walking from the burrito place to the bowling alley? Yeah? 566 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 4: We were talking about Oppenheimer. The movie had just come out, 567 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 4: and I was saying like, yeah, I just got the book, 568 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 4: and you were saying, oh, yeah, I already read it. 569 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 4: And I was like, wait, really you had time to 570 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 4: read all of that and you're like yeah, I just 571 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 4: spent some time, like really dug. 572 00:26:58,760 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 5: Down into it. 573 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 2: And all right, So I'm going to tell you. 574 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something now, Rich, Okay, and 575 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: this is full transparency here. 576 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 5: Yeah. 577 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, what would you say if I told you that? Listen? 578 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: I completed the book, but I listened to about twenty 579 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: five percent of it as an audiobook. 580 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: What's your reaction there? 581 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 4: Okay, So it kind of seems like where you're going 582 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 4: with this is that maybe Manny and devonor are trying 583 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 4: to say that like your opposer or something. Yeah, but no, 584 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 4: I actually I think this is like innovator. 585 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 2: Yes. Well, which, there was a moment of the conversation 586 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 2: you guys had last year where you mentioned how hard 587 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 2: it was to get through some of the chapters. Oh yeah. 588 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 3: Rich was very impressed by how quickly you had finished it. 589 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 5: He's like, wow, you've read that in three weeks. 590 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 4: So actually, wait, yeah, now I'm being swayed. Yeah, keep going, Devin, 591 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 4: keep going. 592 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 3: Noah just said yeah, And I remember to look on 593 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 3: his face when he said it. I turned around during 594 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 3: this part in the conversation because Rich was like, wow, 595 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 3: that's really fast. 596 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 5: You read it that fast, like three and. 597 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 2: I was impressed. 598 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 5: He was like yeah, And I looked at no Space 599 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 5: and I could tell I was like, it looked like 600 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 5: you were lying. Wow, it looks like something's happening in 601 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 5: his eyes. 602 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 3: But I'm like, that would be a weird, Like, no, 603 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 3: he's not going to lie about reading a book. 604 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 4: I just want to clarify my position now too. I 605 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 4: thought I kind of I am feeling a little bit manipulated. 606 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 4: I'm feeling like you were kind of playing into that 607 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 4: idea of you are the book guy in. 608 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 2: This in this relationship here listen. You asked the question, 609 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: and I answered the question. I answered, you know, I'm 610 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 2: feeling a little betrayed. Yeah, that's what I expected. 611 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 4: It kind of seems like you were doing it for 612 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 4: like nerd quote. I think the real question that you're 613 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 4: not getting at is if you're if you are an 614 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 4: audiobook person, are you going to be upfront about it? 615 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 2: If you're like, I'll. 616 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 4: Tell you this, yeah, this new book, like yeah, like 617 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 4: I read this, but it's like, no, you you did it. 618 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 4: You you listen to it. That's fine, but I think 619 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 4: people need to be upfront. We need to normalize about audiobooks. 620 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: Listen in the future, in a scenario like that rich 621 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: where someone's prodding me for details on the speed and 622 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: pace of my reading, I'm gonna go listen, do you 623 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: have do you have a second? I'm gonna say, sit down, 624 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna explain to you exactly which pages I read, 625 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: what I listened to, and how thank you, and I'm 626 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: just gonna come clean from now on. I'm not gonna, 627 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: you know, just needs the shoulders say you know, like 628 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not that smart. 629 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: You know whatever, it's like, We'll just move on. 630 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 5: We need honesty in this country. 631 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: By the way, since we recorded, Rich has become an 632 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: avid audiobook listener. 633 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 2: There's No such Thing Thing. 634 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: No Such Thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman 635 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: and Devin Joseph. 636 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: Theme song is by Manny. 637 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: Our guests this week where doctor Clinton Lassell and Rich Filoni. 638 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: Thanks to our friends for their notes, Julia Lindsay Media 639 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: de Graf, Katherine Isaac, Sarah Floyd, and SUTHIANPJ from Search Engine. 640 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: Please visit No Such Thing Dot show to check out 641 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: some audiobook recommendations from Rich. And Lastly, this was our 642 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: first episode, so please make sure to follow and subscribe 643 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening, drop a five star review, and the 644 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: next episode is live. 645 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: Now here's a preview. I'm pretty confident I could land 646 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 2: upon very Yeah, I think somewhere between somewhat and very confident. 647 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: If someone's giving me instructions, I think I could do it. 648 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 7: You might be able to just point slightly towards the 649 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 7: runway with your control and what you. 650 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: See, Oh that's the runwright. I'm looking at this thing