WEBVTT - Free Brian Williams 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.956 Pushkin. On the evening of March twenty sixth, twenty thirteen, 0:00:22.596 --> 0:00:25.436 Brian Williams appeared on Late Night with David Letterman. 0:00:25.716 --> 0:00:27.556 We're very happy to have this man now with us. 0:00:27.596 --> 0:00:30.396 He is the Emmy and the Peabody Award winning anchor 0:00:30.436 --> 0:00:34.036 and managing editor of the NBC Nightly News. Ladies and gentlemen, 0:00:34.076 --> 0:00:37.276 here he is our good friend, Brian Williams. Mister Williams. 0:00:37.316 --> 0:00:43.236 Mon Brian Williams looks like a TV anchor. He is 0:00:43.276 --> 0:00:46.796 one of those rectangular, super handsome made for television heads, 0:00:47.316 --> 0:00:50.396 maybe two sizes larger than normal, Like he inflates it 0:00:50.436 --> 0:00:53.636 with a bicycle pump before he goes on camera. And 0:00:53.716 --> 0:00:55.556 he's charming, very charming. 0:00:55.756 --> 0:01:00.156 Congratulations twenty years at NBC News, Thank you very much. 0:01:02.676 --> 0:01:03.676 Forty Wars. 0:01:04.996 --> 0:01:06.956 Started as a young man tell me. 0:01:07.276 --> 0:01:09.916 Williams sits down next to Letterman and the two of 0:01:09.956 --> 0:01:12.956 them chit chat and tell jokes. There had been some 0:01:13.036 --> 0:01:16.516 big kerfuffle about the Today Show involving Matt Lower and 0:01:16.636 --> 0:01:19.076 let him In tries and fails to bait Williams into 0:01:19.116 --> 0:01:20.636 saying something juicy about it. 0:01:21.316 --> 0:01:25.556 Now, if I'm onto something, blink twice. 0:01:26.596 --> 0:01:30.076 Then let Himan ask the question that will destroy Brian 0:01:30.116 --> 0:01:30.956 Williams's career. 0:01:31.676 --> 0:01:34.316 Tell me, and if I knew this, I forgot it. 0:01:34.356 --> 0:01:35.236 And if I forgot it. 0:01:35.196 --> 0:01:35.796 I'm ashamed. 0:01:36.516 --> 0:01:39.796 Something happened ten years ago in Iraq. Tell people what 0:01:39.796 --> 0:01:42.356 that occurred. I brought a photo which arrived in my 0:01:42.476 --> 0:01:46.836 email two mornings ago, of where I was tonight, a 0:01:46.916 --> 0:01:54.116 decade ago, this very day, this very day. 0:01:54.236 --> 0:01:57.716 My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 0:01:57.956 --> 0:02:04.276 my podcast about things forgotten and misunderstood. This episode is 0:02:04.316 --> 0:02:07.876 part two of my exploration of memory and our naive 0:02:07.916 --> 0:02:15.036 ideas about what memory is worth. If you haven't heard 0:02:15.076 --> 0:02:18.316 the previous episode, you should listen to it first. It's 0:02:18.356 --> 0:02:20.876 the story of an early morning raid on a Nazi 0:02:20.956 --> 0:02:24.316 hideout in Munich, a raid that involved a world class 0:02:24.356 --> 0:02:29.196 harmonica player and a dashingly handsome undercover spy. The lesson 0:02:29.236 --> 0:02:31.916 of that story is it only a fool, except the 0:02:31.956 --> 0:02:35.036 evidence of his own memory is gospel. The lesson of 0:02:35.076 --> 0:02:37.276 this story is we're all fool. 0:02:41.876 --> 0:02:45.836 This was me ten years ago and a young command 0:02:46.076 --> 0:02:51.436 sergeant major. I was in Iraq. Now a couple of 0:02:51.516 --> 0:02:55.636 caveats here, As war correspondents go I am the Herb 0:02:55.716 --> 0:02:59.756 Schmandrick of war correspondents. I'm not terribly good at it. 0:02:59.756 --> 0:03:01.516 It is not what I do full time. I am 0:03:01.516 --> 0:03:04.596 mostly New York based. I do go cover these two 0:03:04.676 --> 0:03:06.756 wars we've been fighting, and when I do, I like 0:03:06.796 --> 0:03:08.756 to go out on patrol. I like to get out 0:03:08.796 --> 0:03:12.756 in it. We were in some helicopters. We were going 0:03:12.756 --> 0:03:16.076 to drop some bridge portions across the Euphrates so the 0:03:16.116 --> 0:03:19.236 third infantry could cross on them. Two of our four 0:03:19.236 --> 0:03:22.516 helicopters were hit by ground fire, including the one I 0:03:22.636 --> 0:03:25.636 was in, No. RPG and AK forty seven. 0:03:26.556 --> 0:03:29.636 As you may remember, the helicopter Brian Williams was riding 0:03:29.956 --> 0:03:33.676 was not in fact hit by ground fire. Williams was 0:03:33.756 --> 0:03:37.636 miles away in another aircraft entirely when the attack happened. 0:03:38.236 --> 0:03:40.956 One of the most respected network news anchors went on 0:03:41.036 --> 0:03:43.756 Late night TV to tell a story about his near 0:03:43.796 --> 0:03:48.396 death experience, and it turned out not to be true. 0:03:49.276 --> 0:03:52.276 What happens the minute everybody realizes you've been hit, we 0:03:52.316 --> 0:03:55.396 figure out how to land safely, and we did. We 0:03:55.476 --> 0:03:58.996 landed very quickly and hard, and we put down and 0:03:59.076 --> 0:04:02.356 we were stuck four birds in the middle of the 0:04:02.396 --> 0:04:06.476 desert and we were north out ahead of the other Americans. 0:04:06.596 --> 0:04:10.716 Oh my, and as a guy, as a journalist, what 0:04:10.756 --> 0:04:12.556 do you think this is a great position to be 0:04:12.556 --> 0:04:14.116 in our holy crap. I got to get out of 0:04:14.116 --> 0:04:17.076 here more toward the holy crap. 0:04:25.556 --> 0:04:28.476 This is what we know for certain about the case 0:04:28.476 --> 0:04:30.676 of Brian Williams and a helicopter. 0:04:31.516 --> 0:04:34.316 Our colleague Brian Williams is back in Kuwait City tonight 0:04:34.356 --> 0:04:37.676 after a close call in the skies over a rock. Ryan, 0:04:37.956 --> 0:04:40.396 tell us about what you got yourself into. Well in 0:04:40.436 --> 0:04:42.516 the end, Tom, it did give us a glimpse. 0:04:42.796 --> 0:04:45.076 Just after the US invasion of Iraq began in the 0:04:45.116 --> 0:04:48.196 spring of two thousand and three, Williams filed a report 0:04:48.236 --> 0:04:51.516 for NBC News from the field. He described how he'd 0:04:51.516 --> 0:04:55.116 been embedded with a convoy of four Chinook helicopters flying 0:04:55.116 --> 0:04:58.916 out of Kuwait City. They were carrying bridge components so 0:04:58.956 --> 0:05:02.436 that the US Army troops could cross the Euphrates. This 0:05:02.476 --> 0:05:06.236 is Williams reporting March twenty sixth, two thousand and three. 0:05:06.836 --> 0:05:09.196 On the ground, we learned the Chinook ahead of of 0:05:09.276 --> 0:05:12.436 us was almost blown out of the sky. That hole 0:05:12.636 --> 0:05:16.836 was made by a rocket propelled grenade or RPG. 0:05:17.356 --> 0:05:21.156 As Williams describes it. All four helicopters ended up on 0:05:21.196 --> 0:05:24.796 the desert floor. There was a massive sandstorm. They were 0:05:24.796 --> 0:05:28.596 trapped there for three harrowing days. The main invading force 0:05:28.876 --> 0:05:30.036 was still miles away. 0:05:30.436 --> 0:05:33.516 What we didn't know was we were north of the invasion. 0:05:34.156 --> 0:05:36.596 We were the northernmost Americans in Iraq. 0:05:37.996 --> 0:05:41.036 Williams's account is included in a book published by NBC 0:05:41.236 --> 0:05:44.956 shortly after. Four years later, he tells it again in 0:05:44.996 --> 0:05:47.356 a blog post written after the death of a retired 0:05:47.396 --> 0:05:50.596 general who was in the helicopter with him. Only this 0:05:50.716 --> 0:05:55.876 time Williams uses a vague sentence there was small arms fire. 0:05:56.676 --> 0:05:59.156 In a later blog post in two thousand and eight, 0:05:59.356 --> 0:06:02.596 he's more explicit. All four of our low flying chinnooks 0:06:02.636 --> 0:06:07.276 took fire. We were forced down and stayed down. Then 0:06:07.356 --> 0:06:11.516 Letterman twenty thirteen Brian Williams's fateful appearance. 0:06:11.876 --> 0:06:14.756 So we got hit, We sat down. Everyone was okay. 0:06:14.796 --> 0:06:17.236 Our captain took a purple heart injury to his ear 0:06:17.316 --> 0:06:21.396 in the cockpit. But we were alone. They started distributing weapons. 0:06:21.716 --> 0:06:24.916 We heard a noise and it was Bradley Fighting vehicles 0:06:24.956 --> 0:06:28.596 and Abrams tanks coming. They happened to spot us this 0:06:28.796 --> 0:06:33.676 was the invasion, the US invasion. They saw us. 0:06:33.716 --> 0:06:36.396 Suddenly, a story that Williams has been telling in bits 0:06:36.436 --> 0:06:40.036 and pieces gets told in the spotlight of Late night TV, 0:06:40.916 --> 0:06:44.036 and who sees it? Lance Reynolds, the flight engineer on 0:06:44.076 --> 0:06:50.916 the helicopter that got hit. Reynolds responds on NBC's Facebook page. Sorry, dude, 0:06:51.196 --> 0:06:54.116 I don't remember you being on my aircraft. I do 0:06:54.156 --> 0:06:56.796 remember you walking up about an hour after we had 0:06:56.876 --> 0:07:00.716 landed to ask me what happened. One by one the 0:07:00.796 --> 0:07:03.156 members of the flight crews involved come forward to say 0:07:03.156 --> 0:07:07.716 the same thing, and then the skin tell. 0:07:07.556 --> 0:07:10.316 Me, do you know where Brian Williams was at the 0:07:10.356 --> 0:07:13.076 moment that your helicopter was hit by the RPG. 0:07:13.756 --> 0:07:17.636 That's Brian Stelter of CNN interviewing Don Hellis, the pilot 0:07:17.676 --> 0:07:18.636 of the lead helicopter. 0:07:18.836 --> 0:07:20.956 Oh, we had a lot going on, but I am 0:07:20.996 --> 0:07:23.356 pretty sure he was not in our flight at all. 0:07:24.476 --> 0:07:26.836 Then Stelter talks to the pilot of the helicopter that 0:07:26.836 --> 0:07:29.756 Williams was on. His name is Alan Kelly. 0:07:30.116 --> 0:07:32.116 Is it right to say that Brian Williams was aboard 0:07:32.196 --> 0:07:35.476 your helicopter and not aboard the helicopter that was shot 0:07:35.516 --> 0:07:36.676 at in a rock that day. 0:07:37.036 --> 0:07:40.236 That's correct. He was aboard my aircraft at the day 0:07:40.236 --> 0:07:40.716 in March. 0:07:41.156 --> 0:07:43.796 What was your aircraft doing and was it ever within 0:07:43.916 --> 0:07:45.836 sight of the chinook that was shot at? 0:07:45.996 --> 0:07:48.036 As far as the chinook from Big Winni that was 0:07:48.076 --> 0:07:51.476 shot down, we were not within visual range of them. 0:07:51.796 --> 0:07:54.636 So what sort of distance was there between your helicopter 0:07:55.196 --> 0:07:58.316 with Brian Williams aboard and the helicopter that did take fire? 0:07:58.716 --> 0:08:02.996 So initially we were probably a half hour behind them. 0:08:04.196 --> 0:08:08.036 Soon every pundit under the sun is wagging a disdainful finger. 0:08:10.076 --> 0:08:12.636 Tell me what you think, Alancahol, not remember whether or 0:08:12.636 --> 0:08:13.996 not you're in a plane that gets hit? 0:08:14.516 --> 0:08:15.436 I can you not remember that? 0:08:15.556 --> 0:08:18.676 Remember getting punched in the face in the fourth grade? 0:08:19.196 --> 0:08:20.116 Rosie O'Donnell. 0:08:20.716 --> 0:08:22.196 I think you would know if you were in a 0:08:22.196 --> 0:08:25.556 helicopter that was actually hit by a missile. So I 0:08:25.596 --> 0:08:29.076 don't think he didn't remember that. I think he fabricated 0:08:29.116 --> 0:08:29.676 that story. 0:08:30.396 --> 0:08:31.836 John Stewart, we got us a. 0:08:31.836 --> 0:08:34.476 Case here of infotainment confusion syndrome. 0:08:34.516 --> 0:08:38.556 It occurs when the celebrity cortex gets its wires crossed 0:08:38.836 --> 0:08:41.276 with the medulla anchor dolla. 0:08:41.556 --> 0:08:44.636 Even Whoopi Goldberg when he first told the story, He 0:08:44.716 --> 0:08:47.636 told the story as it happened, and every time he 0:08:47.716 --> 0:08:49.876 told it again it got more exciting. 0:08:49.996 --> 0:08:51.676 He was more this, it was more that. 0:08:52.076 --> 0:08:55.516 And by the time he was finished, he was on 0:08:55.596 --> 0:08:56.276 a helicopter. 0:08:56.916 --> 0:08:58.836 I'm sorry. 0:08:59.116 --> 0:08:59.316 You know. 0:09:01.916 --> 0:09:03.196 It's stolen valor. 0:09:03.236 --> 0:09:05.956 You can get a if you impersonate a soldier, say 0:09:05.956 --> 0:09:08.396 you were in combat, you can actually get arrested and 0:09:08.516 --> 0:09:10.556 charged and in jail for doing just what he did. 0:09:10.716 --> 0:09:13.236 Oh, he's reprehensible, he's disgusting in like. 0:09:13.316 --> 0:09:14.716 There's a lion coward. 0:09:14.716 --> 0:09:17.556 He's been telling the story for twelve years. 0:09:17.236 --> 0:09:18.316 Say repeated, Lissen. 0:09:19.196 --> 0:09:23.236 This goes on from months. NBC suspends him six months 0:09:23.276 --> 0:09:26.716 without pay, culminating with a public penance on the Today Show. 0:09:27.196 --> 0:09:29.116 Matt Lower in the interviewer's. 0:09:28.676 --> 0:09:31.596 Seat, What have these past five months been like for you? 0:09:32.396 --> 0:09:34.436 It has been torture. 0:09:41.316 --> 0:09:45.116 Now, maybe you don't care about Brian Williams. A lot 0:09:45.396 --> 0:09:48.516 has happened since his scandal. He currently has a nightly 0:09:48.556 --> 0:09:52.036 show on MSNBC at eleven Eastern. He's going to be 0:09:52.076 --> 0:09:57.956 fine in the grand scheme of things. What does it matter? Well, 0:09:58.596 --> 0:10:02.516 it matters because of what the case exposes about our 0:10:02.636 --> 0:10:06.996 understanding of memory. Brian Williams remembered a traumatic event one way, 0:10:07.476 --> 0:10:09.996 then a couple of years later he he started remembering 0:10:10.036 --> 0:10:13.196 that same event a different way. And the assumption of 0:10:13.276 --> 0:10:15.356 virtually everyone who weighed in on the case was this, 0:10:16.156 --> 0:10:20.036 if someone changes their original story, then they must be lying. 0:10:20.676 --> 0:10:24.796 That the change must be deliberate and self aggrandizing. Everyone 0:10:24.876 --> 0:10:27.876 assumes memory is a kind of time stamped video of 0:10:27.916 --> 0:10:30.596 what happened in your life, and that if you contradict 0:10:30.596 --> 0:10:32.916 the evidence of the video, you're up to no good. 0:10:35.796 --> 0:10:48.316 I'm sorry, but that's insane. Free Brian Williams, I'm going 0:10:48.396 --> 0:10:50.876 to ask you a series of questions about the morning 0:10:51.556 --> 0:10:55.676 of September eleventh, two thousand and one. I'm talking with 0:10:55.756 --> 0:10:59.676 my friend Dide Gordon. I've known her forever. How did 0:10:59.676 --> 0:11:03.836 you first learn about the attack on the towers? Um. 0:11:04.676 --> 0:11:08.476 I had just taken my dogs out for a walk, 0:11:09.676 --> 0:11:12.476 and I had bought the New York Post, the New 0:11:12.556 --> 0:11:16.236 York Times, and I remember Paris Hilton was on the 0:11:16.236 --> 0:11:20.036 cover of the New York Post, I think, and I 0:11:20.196 --> 0:11:24.476 went and I, you know, took my walk around the block, 0:11:24.796 --> 0:11:27.676 and I came up to my apartment and I was 0:11:27.676 --> 0:11:30.996 like sitting at my counter reading the newspapers, and I 0:11:31.036 --> 0:11:35.796 saw all these people standing out on Hudson Street, staring 0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:43.316 up in the middle of the street, and so I 0:11:43.356 --> 0:11:46.396 poked my head out the window. I couldn't really see 0:11:46.436 --> 0:11:50.396 what was going on. And then I turned on the television, 0:11:51.236 --> 0:11:54.436 and you know, saw what was happening. 0:11:55.996 --> 0:11:56.996 What did you do next? 0:11:57.716 --> 0:12:03.116 I went up and go. You know, I either called 0:12:03.116 --> 0:12:05.236 you or I went up to your apartment. I can't remember. 0:12:05.596 --> 0:12:07.356 It was one of the It was one of two things. 0:12:07.356 --> 0:12:10.116 I either I think I had called you. I think 0:12:10.156 --> 0:12:12.396 I called you because you're upstairs. 0:12:14.196 --> 0:12:15.956 Dedy Gordon and I used to live in the same 0:12:15.956 --> 0:12:19.356 building in the West Village, above a bodega. Whenever she 0:12:19.476 --> 0:12:21.596 came up to see me, she would sing the theme 0:12:21.676 --> 0:12:24.796 song from the sitcom Threees Company, Come and knock on 0:12:24.836 --> 0:12:27.916 her door. Wait, you called me before you went out 0:12:27.916 --> 0:12:30.076 on the street or after you went on the street. 0:12:30.676 --> 0:12:31.636 I called you before? 0:12:32.276 --> 0:12:35.236 Oh did I? And did I? I picked up you did. 0:12:35.476 --> 0:12:37.876 And I was like, you need to look out your 0:12:37.876 --> 0:12:39.876 window and you did at turn on the news. 0:12:40.796 --> 0:12:42.796 Did you see me that morning or did you leave 0:12:42.876 --> 0:12:43.916 before I came down? 0:12:44.396 --> 0:12:48.236 Now we saw each other and you were like, well, 0:12:48.276 --> 0:12:52.036 I got to go fly someplace today. And I remember 0:12:52.076 --> 0:12:54.196 I said to you, I go what and I know 0:12:54.276 --> 0:12:55.916 the airports were closed? And You're like, oh, well, I 0:12:55.916 --> 0:12:59.516 guess i'll leave tomorrow morning. And I said, oh, like 0:12:59.556 --> 0:13:01.116 you're going to get on a plane like I thought 0:13:01.116 --> 0:13:05.196 you were crazy? And you said, Gordon, this is the 0:13:05.276 --> 0:13:06.356 safest time to fly. 0:13:09.916 --> 0:13:10.196 Is that? 0:13:10.636 --> 0:13:10.716 No? 0:13:10.836 --> 0:13:12.516 I don't you know? 0:13:12.756 --> 0:13:12.876 So? 0:13:13.516 --> 0:13:16.996 First of all, your memory for this stuff is kind 0:13:16.996 --> 0:13:21.396 of phenomenal. How certain are you about all of those 0:13:21.716 --> 0:13:22.796 memories you just told me? 0:13:24.076 --> 0:13:28.036 How certain am I? Yeah, I'm pretty certain. 0:13:30.236 --> 0:13:32.956 Now let me ask you the same questions I was 0:13:33.036 --> 0:13:35.956 just asking d D. How did you first learn about 0:13:35.956 --> 0:13:39.076 what happened on nine to eleven? Where were you? What 0:13:39.076 --> 0:13:41.836 were you doing? How did you feel when you first 0:13:41.836 --> 0:13:44.676 became aware of the attack? Who was the first person 0:13:44.716 --> 0:13:47.276 you talked to about the attack? What were you doing 0:13:47.316 --> 0:13:50.676 immediately before you became aware of it. I'm going to 0:13:50.716 --> 0:13:52.716 guess that many of you can answer every one of 0:13:52.756 --> 0:13:56.676 those questions. Maybe not with the same specificity as Dede 0:13:56.836 --> 0:13:59.436 because she has an amazing memory, but you can tell 0:13:59.476 --> 0:14:03.156 me where you were when you heard the news. I 0:14:03.196 --> 0:14:05.716 was in bed. Dedie called me. I went down to 0:14:05.796 --> 0:14:08.396 Hudson Street and stood in the crowd watching a twin 0:14:08.476 --> 0:14:11.316 towers burn. Then I went down to a little coffee 0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:14.076 shop around the corner from my house and sat there 0:14:14.596 --> 0:14:21.676 with a cup of tea in numb silence. Nine to 0:14:21.676 --> 0:14:24.956 eleven is what's called a flashbulb event, a big dramatic 0:14:24.996 --> 0:14:28.556 incident that seares itself into our memories, and as a 0:14:28.556 --> 0:14:31.476 whole sub specialty in psychology devoted to the study of 0:14:31.476 --> 0:14:35.676 flashbulb memories. You ask someone where they were right after 0:14:35.796 --> 0:14:39.236 something dramatic or historic happened. Then you come back to 0:14:39.276 --> 0:14:42.556 them months or years later and ask them again and 0:14:42.636 --> 0:14:46.236 measure how accurate their memories are. There have been countless 0:14:46.236 --> 0:14:48.916 studies like this over the years. One was done after 0:14:48.956 --> 0:14:52.196 the death of Princess Die, another after the resignation of 0:14:52.196 --> 0:14:56.236 Margaret Thatcher, the Challenger explosion, the fall of the Berlin Wall, 0:14:56.676 --> 0:14:59.756 the election of Barack Obama, the O. J. Simpson verdict. 0:15:00.436 --> 0:15:03.396 Not surprisingly, there was one done after nine to eleven 0:15:03.396 --> 0:15:03.796 as well. 0:15:04.836 --> 0:15:09.116 So nine to eleven happened, and I got together with 0:15:10.076 --> 0:15:13.676 a former student of mine at NYU, Liz Phelps. 0:15:14.076 --> 0:15:16.676 The nine to eleven project was headed by Bill Hurst 0:15:16.676 --> 0:15:19.796 from the New School and Liz Phelps at New York University. 0:15:20.516 --> 0:15:22.556 I went to Sea Hurst and he told me that 0:15:22.596 --> 0:15:24.796 he and Phelps had come up with the idea over 0:15:24.876 --> 0:15:28.476 dinner on September twelfth in a restaurant close enough to 0:15:28.516 --> 0:15:32.396 the towers that you could smell the smoke. Hirst says 0:15:32.556 --> 0:15:34.996 that he and Phelps realized they could do the mother 0:15:35.076 --> 0:15:38.716 of all flashbulb studies, So the next day they reached 0:15:38.716 --> 0:15:42.676 out to colleagues around the country Boston, New Haven, New York, Washington, 0:15:42.716 --> 0:15:46.276 d C. Saint Louis, Palo Alto, and Santa Cruz. A 0:15:46.316 --> 0:15:49.556 total of three thousand, two hundred and forty six subjects 0:15:50.036 --> 0:15:53.836 asked the same questions. I just asked you, where were you, 0:15:54.396 --> 0:15:58.996 who were you with? How did you feel? The participants 0:15:59.196 --> 0:16:02.516 were asked these same questions a year later, and two 0:16:02.596 --> 0:16:05.436 years later, and finally on the tenth anniversary of the 0:16:05.476 --> 0:16:12.836 attack in twenty eleven. Now, what did the researchers find. Well, first, 0:16:12.836 --> 0:16:15.076 that everyone knows where they were when they heard the 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:18.996 towers fell, just like me. Indeedy, it's burned into memory. 0:16:19.796 --> 0:16:24.836 But are those memories accurate? No, they're not. Especially in 0:16:24.876 --> 0:16:27.876 the first year after a flashbulb event. All kinds of 0:16:27.916 --> 0:16:31.836 discrepancies creep in. One of the respondents first said she 0:16:31.916 --> 0:16:34.196 was in the kitchen making breakfast when she heard about 0:16:34.196 --> 0:16:37.076 the attack. A year later, she swore she was in 0:16:37.076 --> 0:16:40.756 the laundry room folding her clothes. Another said in two 0:16:40.796 --> 0:16:43.596 thousand and one that she saw the attack while watching 0:16:43.596 --> 0:16:47.196 the Today Show. A year later, she was convinced that 0:16:47.236 --> 0:16:49.196 a girl in her dorm had rushed into her room 0:16:49.196 --> 0:16:53.236 and told her so. When we look at these kinds 0:16:53.236 --> 0:16:57.756 of inaccuracies and inconsistencies that creep into, how large is 0:16:57.796 --> 0:17:00.596 the variability among the subjects. That is to say, do 0:17:00.676 --> 0:17:03.916 we have some who get everything wrong in retrospect and 0:17:03.956 --> 0:17:04.956 some get everything right? 0:17:05.116 --> 0:17:05.316 No? 0:17:06.436 --> 0:17:10.076 I would say that the variability is fairly small. Some 0:17:10.116 --> 0:17:12.996 people get everything right, some people get more wrong, but 0:17:13.036 --> 0:17:15.636 it's not a huge variability. 0:17:15.756 --> 0:17:20.636 Hurst finds, on average, a sixty percent decline in memory consistency, 0:17:21.236 --> 0:17:27.396 meaning sixty percent of the answers changed over time. You 0:17:27.396 --> 0:17:29.836 would think that everything about nine to eleven would be 0:17:29.836 --> 0:17:32.756 seared into our minds one of the most dramatic days 0:17:32.756 --> 0:17:39.476 of our generation. But everything is not. Second thing even 0:17:39.476 --> 0:17:42.356 more crucial, Are we aware that our memories of nine 0:17:42.396 --> 0:17:46.036 to eleven are flawed. No, we're not. Our confidence in 0:17:46.076 --> 0:17:49.636 the accuracy of our memories of that day is sky high. 0:17:49.996 --> 0:17:53.876 They're super high. And why walk me It means of 0:17:53.876 --> 0:17:55.916 a dumb question, but walk me through. Why are they 0:17:55.996 --> 0:17:59.516 so high? Hurst says nine to eleven is like a 0:17:59.556 --> 0:18:02.916 death in the family. We feel we have a responsibility 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:05.836 to remember. If you had only vague memories of where 0:18:05.836 --> 0:18:09.916 you were when you found out your mother died, well. 0:18:09.236 --> 0:18:11.876 Think like, what kind of person are you? How could 0:18:11.916 --> 0:18:15.756 you not remember that? Our New Yorker's confidence levels higher, 0:18:15.756 --> 0:18:18.476 I forget. Everybody's confident level was so high, so it's 0:18:18.636 --> 0:18:20.196 hard to differentiate. PA two. 0:18:22.396 --> 0:18:25.596 We're all absolutely sure about what happened to us on 0:18:25.636 --> 0:18:28.356 nine to eleven. My friend DETI can talk about that 0:18:28.396 --> 0:18:31.316 morning just as if it were yesterday, and I will 0:18:31.356 --> 0:18:33.396 swear on a stack of Bibles that she called me 0:18:33.436 --> 0:18:36.116 on the phone and then I ran downstairs and then 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:38.956 eventually ended up sitting numb and alone in a coffee shop. 0:18:40.156 --> 0:18:42.636 And yet it is almost certainly the case that we 0:18:42.676 --> 0:18:45.996 are wrong on at least half of those details. It 0:18:46.076 --> 0:18:49.996 did not happen that way. Hers says that the participants 0:18:50.036 --> 0:18:54.116 in flashbulb studies refused to accept this fact, they will 0:18:54.156 --> 0:18:57.756 not admit that their memories are wrong. Take the flash 0:18:57.756 --> 0:19:00.516 Bob study done after the explosion of the Challenger space 0:19:00.556 --> 0:19:04.396 shuttle in nineteen eighty six. The psychologist in charge sat 0:19:04.436 --> 0:19:07.556 down with people months later and showed them how differently 0:19:07.596 --> 0:19:11.036 they described things right after after the disaster. He showed 0:19:11.036 --> 0:19:12.836 them what they actually wrote. 0:19:13.556 --> 0:19:18.196 He says, is it they're handwriting? And they say yes, 0:19:18.316 --> 0:19:20.676 But I don't know why I wrote that, because it's wrong. 0:19:21.796 --> 0:19:23.676 You know. I agree, it's my handwriting. I agree I 0:19:23.756 --> 0:19:26.396 must have written that, But I don't know why I 0:19:26.516 --> 0:19:29.276 mind it because I clearly remember I was in the dorm, 0:19:29.476 --> 0:19:31.356 even though this piece of paper says I was in 0:19:31.356 --> 0:19:35.316 the cafeteria. So this overwhelming confidence that people have. 0:19:38.756 --> 0:19:42.636 Now, why are we so adamant on the subject of memory. 0:19:42.676 --> 0:19:46.436 Because we're memory fundamentalists. We think our memory is a 0:19:46.436 --> 0:19:49.156 camera recording our life in real time with a video 0:19:49.276 --> 0:19:51.476 timestamped and stored for later retrieval. 0:19:52.196 --> 0:19:55.476 It's not like memory is when you remember something, you're 0:19:55.516 --> 0:19:58.836 retrieving it and it remains absolutely stable, and then you 0:19:58.956 --> 0:20:02.156 put it in the footlights of your consciousness. It's more 0:20:02.236 --> 0:20:05.876 that when you retrieve it, it's open up to the 0:20:05.956 --> 0:20:07.676 possibility of change. 0:20:08.036 --> 0:20:10.636 Every time we retrieve it memory. In other words, there's 0:20:10.676 --> 0:20:13.676 a chance it can get contaminated. We hear some new 0:20:13.716 --> 0:20:17.396 detail somewhere about the event, and without realizing it, we 0:20:17.556 --> 0:20:20.716 just added in memory. Researchers talk a lot about what 0:20:20.756 --> 0:20:24.316 they call time slice airs. A couple of things happen 0:20:24.396 --> 0:20:26.996 in the same general time frame, and we get the 0:20:27.036 --> 0:20:30.836 sequence all jumbled up. Didi says she and I talked 0:20:30.836 --> 0:20:33.356 in person that morning of nine to eleven. I have 0:20:33.396 --> 0:20:35.316 no recollection of it, but she does. 0:20:35.796 --> 0:20:37.916 I'm almost positively spoke inside the apartment. 0:20:38.516 --> 0:20:42.836 Yeah yeah, And then I really said I was getting 0:20:42.836 --> 0:20:43.876 on a plane the next day. 0:20:44.236 --> 0:20:44.716 Oh yeah. 0:20:44.756 --> 0:20:48.036 And you were like kind of cocky about it too. 0:20:48.476 --> 0:20:50.956 You're like you kind of looked at me like, oh, Gordon, 0:20:51.996 --> 0:20:55.516 stop being so neurotic, and you're like, don't you know 0:20:55.556 --> 0:20:57.876 this is the safest time to get on an airplane 0:20:58.156 --> 0:20:59.356 is when something like this happens. 0:20:59.356 --> 0:21:01.476 I could be really quite conscending. 0:21:01.756 --> 0:21:04.836 It turns out it's my favorite thing about you. 0:21:06.036 --> 0:21:08.916 I decided to do a little fact checking. I still 0:21:08.956 --> 0:21:11.796 have by date books from two thousand and one. I'm 0:21:11.796 --> 0:21:15.476 pretty meticulous about keeping track of my travel, and I 0:21:15.516 --> 0:21:19.116 did not have an airplane trip planned for September twelfth. Now, 0:21:19.636 --> 0:21:23.916 maybe I'm mistaken, maybe DD's right, But according to my records, 0:21:24.156 --> 0:21:27.636 I flew to Montreal on September nineteenth, eight days later. 0:21:29.036 --> 0:21:32.036 I think our conversation about flights must have been right 0:21:32.076 --> 0:21:35.636 before that trip, because why would I say it's the 0:21:35.716 --> 0:21:38.516 safest time to fly on the morning of nine to eleven. 0:21:39.196 --> 0:21:41.756 That's something you would only say after the airports had 0:21:41.796 --> 0:21:45.716 reopened with much tighter security. I think DD made a 0:21:45.756 --> 0:21:50.676 time slice era at some point she mistakenly moved that 0:21:50.876 --> 0:21:53.316 memory to the morning of nine to eleven, because it 0:21:53.396 --> 0:21:56.676 seems plausible that we would have talked about planes that morning. 0:21:57.476 --> 0:22:00.396 Now does that make d d a liar? Is she 0:22:00.516 --> 0:22:03.636 working some self promoting angle? Didi is one of the 0:22:03.636 --> 0:22:06.956 most honest people I've ever met. She simply did what 0:22:07.036 --> 0:22:10.996 human beings do when it came to traumatic events. There 0:22:11.036 --> 0:22:13.996 is our memory and there is the truth, and the 0:22:14.036 --> 0:22:19.076 two are not the same. Okay, So what if it's 0:22:19.116 --> 0:22:21.356 not nine to eleven. What if it's a couple of 0:22:21.396 --> 0:22:23.676 years later, at the very beginning of the Iraq War. 0:22:24.276 --> 0:22:26.796 What if I'm in a convoy of helicopters deep in 0:22:26.916 --> 0:22:30.476 enemy territory, scared out of my wits, and the helicopter 0:22:30.516 --> 0:22:33.196 ahead of me gets hit. And I'm a reporter, and 0:22:33.236 --> 0:22:35.636 I interview lots of people that day about what happened, 0:22:35.756 --> 0:22:39.276 and retell the story so many times that their details 0:22:39.356 --> 0:22:42.436 become my details, and I start to think that it 0:22:42.516 --> 0:22:46.956 was my helicopter that got hit. When I read your paper, 0:22:46.996 --> 0:22:52.396