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Speaker 1: Pushkin. On the evening of March twenty sixth, twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 1: Brian Williams appeared on Late Night with David Letterman.

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Speaker 2: We're very happy to have this man now with us.

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Speaker 2: He is the Emmy and the Peabody Award winning anchor

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Speaker 2: and managing editor of the NBC Nightly News. Ladies and gentlemen,

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Speaker 2: here he is our good friend, Brian Williams. Mister Williams.

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Speaker 1: Mon Brian Williams looks like a TV anchor. He is

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Speaker 1: one of those rectangular, super handsome made for television heads,

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Speaker 1: maybe two sizes larger than normal, Like he inflates it

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Speaker 1: with a bicycle pump before he goes on camera. And

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Speaker 1: he's charming, very charming.

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Speaker 2: Congratulations twenty years at NBC News, Thank you very much.

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Speaker 3: Forty Wars.

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Speaker 2: Started as a young man tell me.

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Speaker 1: Williams sits down next to Letterman and the two of

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Speaker 1: them chit chat and tell jokes. There had been some

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Speaker 1: big kerfuffle about the Today Show involving Matt Lower and

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Speaker 1: let him In tries and fails to bait Williams into

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Speaker 1: saying something juicy about it.

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Speaker 2: Now, if I'm onto something, blink twice.

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Speaker 1: Then let Himan ask the question that will destroy Brian

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Speaker 1: Williams's career.

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Speaker 2: Tell me, and if I knew this, I forgot it.

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Speaker 2: And if I forgot it.

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Speaker 4: I'm ashamed.

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Speaker 2: Something happened ten years ago in Iraq. Tell people what

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Speaker 2: that occurred. I brought a photo which arrived in my

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Speaker 2: email two mornings ago, of where I was tonight, a

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Speaker 2: decade ago, this very day, this very day.

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Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History,

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Speaker 1: my podcast about things forgotten and misunderstood. This episode is

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Speaker 1: part two of my exploration of memory and our naive

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Speaker 1: ideas about what memory is worth. If you haven't heard

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Speaker 1: the previous episode, you should listen to it first. It's

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Speaker 1: the story of an early morning raid on a Nazi

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Speaker 1: hideout in Munich, a raid that involved a world class

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Speaker 1: harmonica player and a dashingly handsome undercover spy. The lesson

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Speaker 1: of that story is it only a fool, except the

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Speaker 1: evidence of his own memory is gospel. The lesson of

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Speaker 1: this story is we're all fool.

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Speaker 2: This was me ten years ago and a young command

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Speaker 2: sergeant major. I was in Iraq. Now a couple of

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Speaker 2: caveats here, As war correspondents go I am the Herb

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Speaker 2: Schmandrick of war correspondents. I'm not terribly good at it.

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Speaker 2: It is not what I do full time. I am

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Speaker 2: mostly New York based. I do go cover these two

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Speaker 2: wars we've been fighting, and when I do, I like

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Speaker 2: to go out on patrol. I like to get out

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Speaker 2: in it. We were in some helicopters. We were going

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Speaker 2: to drop some bridge portions across the Euphrates so the

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Speaker 2: third infantry could cross on them. Two of our four

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Speaker 2: helicopters were hit by ground fire, including the one I

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Speaker 2: was in, No. RPG and AK forty seven.

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Speaker 1: As you may remember, the helicopter Brian Williams was riding

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Speaker 1: was not in fact hit by ground fire. Williams was

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Speaker 1: miles away in another aircraft entirely when the attack happened.

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Speaker 1: One of the most respected network news anchors went on

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Speaker 1: Late night TV to tell a story about his near

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Speaker 1: death experience, and it turned out not to be true.

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Speaker 2: What happens the minute everybody realizes you've been hit, we

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Speaker 2: figure out how to land safely, and we did. We

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Speaker 2: landed very quickly and hard, and we put down and

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Speaker 2: we were stuck four birds in the middle of the

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Speaker 2: desert and we were north out ahead of the other Americans.

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Speaker 2: Oh my, and as a guy, as a journalist, what

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Speaker 2: do you think this is a great position to be

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Speaker 2: in our holy crap. I got to get out of

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Speaker 2: here more toward the holy crap.

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Speaker 1: This is what we know for certain about the case

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Speaker 1: of Brian Williams and a helicopter.

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Speaker 2: Our colleague Brian Williams is back in Kuwait City tonight

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Speaker 2: after a close call in the skies over a rock. Ryan,

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Speaker 2: tell us about what you got yourself into. Well in

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Speaker 2: the end, Tom, it did give us a glimpse.

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Speaker 1: Just after the US invasion of Iraq began in the

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Speaker 1: spring of two thousand and three, Williams filed a report

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Speaker 1: for NBC News from the field. He described how he'd

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Speaker 1: been embedded with a convoy of four Chinook helicopters flying

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Speaker 1: out of Kuwait City. They were carrying bridge components so

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Speaker 1: that the US Army troops could cross the Euphrates. This

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Speaker 1: is Williams reporting March twenty sixth, two thousand and three.

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Speaker 2: On the ground, we learned the Chinook ahead of of

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Speaker 2: us was almost blown out of the sky. That hole

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Speaker 2: was made by a rocket propelled grenade or RPG.

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Speaker 1: As Williams describes it. All four helicopters ended up on

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Speaker 1: the desert floor. There was a massive sandstorm. They were

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Speaker 1: trapped there for three harrowing days. The main invading force

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Speaker 1: was still miles away.

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Speaker 2: What we didn't know was we were north of the invasion.

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Speaker 2: We were the northernmost Americans in Iraq.

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Speaker 1: Williams's account is included in a book published by NBC

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Speaker 1: shortly after. Four years later, he tells it again in

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Speaker 1: a blog post written after the death of a retired

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Speaker 1: general who was in the helicopter with him. Only this

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Speaker 1: time Williams uses a vague sentence there was small arms fire.

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Speaker 1: In a later blog post in two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 1: he's more explicit. All four of our low flying chinnooks

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Speaker 1: took fire. We were forced down and stayed down. Then

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Speaker 1: Letterman twenty thirteen Brian Williams's fateful appearance.

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Speaker 2: So we got hit, We sat down. Everyone was okay.

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Speaker 2: Our captain took a purple heart injury to his ear

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Speaker 2: in the cockpit. But we were alone. They started distributing weapons.

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Speaker 2: We heard a noise and it was Bradley Fighting vehicles

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Speaker 2: and Abrams tanks coming. They happened to spot us this

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Speaker 2: was the invasion, the US invasion. They saw us.

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Speaker 1: Suddenly, a story that Williams has been telling in bits

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Speaker 1: and pieces gets told in the spotlight of Late night TV,

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Speaker 1: and who sees it? Lance Reynolds, the flight engineer on

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Speaker 1: the helicopter that got hit. Reynolds responds on NBC's Facebook page. Sorry, dude,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember you being on my aircraft. I do

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Speaker 1: remember you walking up about an hour after we had

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Speaker 1: landed to ask me what happened. One by one the

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Speaker 1: members of the flight crews involved come forward to say

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Speaker 1: the same thing, and then the skin tell.

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Speaker 5: Me, do you know where Brian Williams was at the

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Speaker 5: moment that your helicopter was hit by the RPG.

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Speaker 1: That's Brian Stelter of CNN interviewing Don Hellis, the pilot

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Speaker 1: of the lead helicopter.

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Speaker 6: Oh, we had a lot going on, but I am

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Speaker 6: pretty sure he was not in our flight at all.

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Speaker 1: Then Stelter talks to the pilot of the helicopter that

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Speaker 1: Williams was on. His name is Alan Kelly.

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Speaker 5: Is it right to say that Brian Williams was aboard

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Speaker 5: your helicopter and not aboard the helicopter that was shot

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Speaker 5: at in a rock that day.

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Speaker 2: That's correct. He was aboard my aircraft at the day

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Speaker 2: in March.

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Speaker 5: What was your aircraft doing and was it ever within

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Speaker 5: sight of the chinook that was shot at?

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Speaker 2: As far as the chinook from Big Winni that was

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Speaker 2: shot down, we were not within visual range of them.

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Speaker 5: So what sort of distance was there between your helicopter

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Speaker 5: with Brian Williams aboard and the helicopter that did take fire?

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Speaker 5: So initially we were probably a half hour behind them.

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Speaker 1: Soon every pundit under the sun is wagging a disdainful finger.

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Speaker 5: Tell me what you think, Alancahol, not remember whether or

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Speaker 5: not you're in a plane that gets hit?

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Speaker 2: I can you not remember that?

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Speaker 3: Remember getting punched in the face in the fourth grade?

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Speaker 1: Rosie O'Donnell.

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Speaker 2: I think you would know if you were in a

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Speaker 2: helicopter that was actually hit by a missile. So I

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Speaker 2: don't think he didn't remember that. I think he fabricated

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Speaker 2: that story.

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Speaker 1: John Stewart, we got us a.

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Speaker 6: Case here of infotainment confusion syndrome.

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Speaker 1: It occurs when the celebrity cortex gets its wires crossed

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Speaker 1: with the medulla anchor dolla.

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Speaker 7: Even Whoopi Goldberg when he first told the story, He

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Speaker 7: told the story as it happened, and every time he

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Speaker 7: told it again it got more exciting.

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Speaker 3: He was more this, it was more that.

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Speaker 7: And by the time he was finished, he was on

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Speaker 7: a helicopter.

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Speaker 8: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's stolen valor.

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Speaker 2: You can get a if you impersonate a soldier, say

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Speaker 2: you were in combat, you can actually get arrested and

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Speaker 2: charged and in jail for doing just what he did.

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Speaker 1: Oh, he's reprehensible, he's disgusting in like.

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Speaker 2: There's a lion coward.

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Speaker 4: He's been telling the story for twelve years.

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Speaker 2: Say repeated, Lissen.

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Speaker 1: This goes on from months. NBC suspends him six months

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Speaker 1: without pay, culminating with a public penance on the Today Show.

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Speaker 1: Matt Lower in the interviewer's.

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Speaker 7: Seat, What have these past five months been like for you?

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Speaker 2: It has been torture.

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Speaker 1: Now, maybe you don't care about Brian Williams. A lot

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Speaker 1: has happened since his scandal. He currently has a nightly

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Speaker 1: show on MSNBC at eleven Eastern. He's going to be

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Speaker 1: fine in the grand scheme of things. What does it matter? Well,

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Speaker 1: it matters because of what the case exposes about our

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Speaker 1: understanding of memory. Brian Williams remembered a traumatic event one way,

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Speaker 1: then a couple of years later he he started remembering

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Speaker 1: that same event a different way. And the assumption of

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Speaker 1: virtually everyone who weighed in on the case was this,

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Speaker 1: if someone changes their original story, then they must be lying.

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Speaker 1: That the change must be deliberate and self aggrandizing. Everyone

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Speaker 1: assumes memory is a kind of time stamped video of

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Speaker 1: what happened in your life, and that if you contradict

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Speaker 1: the evidence of the video, you're up to no good.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but that's insane. Free Brian Williams, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to ask you a series of questions about the morning

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Speaker 1: of September eleventh, two thousand and one. I'm talking with

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Speaker 1: my friend Dide Gordon. I've known her forever. How did

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Speaker 1: you first learn about the attack on the towers? Um.

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Speaker 8: I had just taken my dogs out for a walk,

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Speaker 8: and I had bought the New York Post, the New

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Speaker 8: York Times, and I remember Paris Hilton was on the

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Speaker 8: cover of the New York Post, I think, and I

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Speaker 8: went and I, you know, took my walk around the block,

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Speaker 8: and I came up to my apartment and I was

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Speaker 8: like sitting at my counter reading the newspapers, and I

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Speaker 8: saw all these people standing out on Hudson Street, staring

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Speaker 8: up in the middle of the street, and so I

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Speaker 8: poked my head out the window. I couldn't really see

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Speaker 8: what was going on. And then I turned on the television,

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Speaker 8: and you know, saw what was happening.

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Speaker 1: What did you do next?

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Speaker 8: I went up and go. You know, I either called

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Speaker 8: you or I went up to your apartment. I can't remember.

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Speaker 8: It was one of the It was one of two things.

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Speaker 8: I either I think I had called you. I think

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Speaker 8: I called you because you're upstairs.

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Speaker 1: Dedy Gordon and I used to live in the same

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Speaker 1: building in the West Village, above a bodega. Whenever she

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Speaker 1: came up to see me, she would sing the theme

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Speaker 1: song from the sitcom Threees Company, Come and knock on

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Speaker 1: her door. Wait, you called me before you went out

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Speaker 1: on the street or after you went on the street.

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Speaker 8: I called you before?

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Speaker 1: Oh did I? And did I? I picked up you did.

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Speaker 8: And I was like, you need to look out your

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Speaker 8: window and you did at turn on the news.

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Speaker 1: Did you see me that morning or did you leave

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Speaker 1: before I came down?

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Speaker 8: Now we saw each other and you were like, well,

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Speaker 8: I got to go fly someplace today. And I remember

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Speaker 8: I said to you, I go what and I know

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Speaker 8: the airports were closed? And You're like, oh, well, I

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Speaker 8: guess i'll leave tomorrow morning. And I said, oh, like

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Speaker 8: you're going to get on a plane like I thought

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Speaker 8: you were crazy? And you said, Gordon, this is the

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Speaker 8: safest time to fly.

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Speaker 4: Is that?

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Speaker 6: No?

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Speaker 1: I don't you know?

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Speaker 5: So?

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Speaker 1: First of all, your memory for this stuff is kind

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Speaker 1: of phenomenal. How certain are you about all of those

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Speaker 1: memories you just told me?

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Speaker 8: How certain am I? Yeah, I'm pretty certain.

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Speaker 1: Now let me ask you the same questions I was

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Speaker 1: just asking d D. How did you first learn about

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Speaker 1: what happened on nine to eleven? Where were you? What

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Speaker 1: were you doing? How did you feel when you first

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Speaker 1: became aware of the attack? Who was the first person

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Speaker 1: you talked to about the attack? What were you doing

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Speaker 1: immediately before you became aware of it. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: guess that many of you can answer every one of

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Speaker 1: those questions. Maybe not with the same specificity as Dede

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Speaker 1: because she has an amazing memory, but you can tell

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Speaker 1: me where you were when you heard the news. I

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Speaker 1: was in bed. Dedie called me. I went down to

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Speaker 1: Hudson Street and stood in the crowd watching a twin

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Speaker 1: towers burn. Then I went down to a little coffee

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Speaker 1: shop around the corner from my house and sat there

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Speaker 1: with a cup of tea in numb silence. Nine to

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Speaker 1: eleven is what's called a flashbulb event, a big dramatic

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Speaker 1: incident that seares itself into our memories, and as a

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Speaker 1: whole sub specialty in psychology devoted to the study of

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Speaker 1: flashbulb memories. You ask someone where they were right after

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Speaker 1: something dramatic or historic happened. Then you come back to

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Speaker 1: them months or years later and ask them again and

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Speaker 1: measure how accurate their memories are. There have been countless

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Speaker 1: studies like this over the years. One was done after

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Speaker 1: the death of Princess Die, another after the resignation of

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Speaker 1: Margaret Thatcher, the Challenger explosion, the fall of the Berlin Wall,

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Speaker 1: the election of Barack Obama, the O. J. Simpson verdict.

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Speaker 1: Not surprisingly, there was one done after nine to eleven

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 6: So nine to eleven happened, and I got together with

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Speaker 6: a former student of mine at NYU, Liz Phelps.

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Speaker 1: The nine to eleven project was headed by Bill Hurst

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Speaker 1: from the New School and Liz Phelps at New York University.

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Speaker 1: I went to Sea Hurst and he told me that

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Speaker 1: he and Phelps had come up with the idea over

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Speaker 1: dinner on September twelfth in a restaurant close enough to

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Speaker 1: the towers that you could smell the smoke. Hirst says

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Speaker 1: that he and Phelps realized they could do the mother

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Speaker 1: of all flashbulb studies, So the next day they reached

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Speaker 1: out to colleagues around the country Boston, New Haven, New York, Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. Saint Louis, Palo Alto, and Santa Cruz. A

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Speaker 1: total of three thousand, two hundred and forty six subjects

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Speaker 1: asked the same questions. I just asked you, where were you,

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Speaker 1: who were you with? How did you feel? The participants

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Speaker 1: were asked these same questions a year later, and two

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Speaker 1: years later, and finally on the tenth anniversary of the

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Speaker 1: attack in twenty eleven. Now, what did the researchers find. Well, first,

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Speaker 1: that everyone knows where they were when they heard the

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Speaker 1: towers fell, just like me. Indeedy, it's burned into memory.

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Speaker 1: But are those memories accurate? No, they're not. Especially in

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Speaker 1: the first year after a flashbulb event. All kinds of

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Speaker 1: discrepancies creep in. One of the respondents first said she

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Speaker 1: was in the kitchen making breakfast when she heard about

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Speaker 1: the attack. A year later, she swore she was in

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Speaker 1: the laundry room folding her clothes. Another said in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one that she saw the attack while watching

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Speaker 1: the Today Show. A year later, she was convinced that

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Speaker 1: a girl in her dorm had rushed into her room

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Speaker 1: and told her so. When we look at these kinds

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Speaker 1: of inaccuracies and inconsistencies that creep into, how large is

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Speaker 1: the variability among the subjects. That is to say, do

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Speaker 1: we have some who get everything wrong in retrospect and

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Speaker 1: some get everything right?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 6: I would say that the variability is fairly small. Some

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Speaker 6: people get everything right, some people get more wrong, but

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Speaker 6: it's not a huge variability.

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Speaker 1: Hurst finds, on average, a sixty percent decline in memory consistency,

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Speaker 1: meaning sixty percent of the answers changed over time. You

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Speaker 1: would think that everything about nine to eleven would be

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Speaker 1: seared into our minds one of the most dramatic days

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Speaker 1: of our generation. But everything is not. Second thing even

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Speaker 1: more crucial, Are we aware that our memories of nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven are flawed. No, we're not. Our confidence in

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Speaker 1: the accuracy of our memories of that day is sky high.

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Speaker 1: They're super high. And why walk me It means of

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Speaker 1: a dumb question, but walk me through. Why are they

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Speaker 1: so high? Hurst says nine to eleven is like a

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Speaker 1: death in the family. We feel we have a responsibility

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Speaker 1: to remember. If you had only vague memories of where

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Speaker 1: you were when you found out your mother died, well.

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Speaker 6: Think like, what kind of person are you? How could

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Speaker 6: you not remember that? Our New Yorker's confidence levels higher,

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Speaker 6: I forget. Everybody's confident level was so high, so it's

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Speaker 6: hard to differentiate. PA two.

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Speaker 1: We're all absolutely sure about what happened to us on

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven. My friend DETI can talk about that

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Speaker 1: morning just as if it were yesterday, and I will

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Speaker 1: swear on a stack of Bibles that she called me

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Speaker 1: on the phone and then I ran downstairs and then

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Speaker 1: eventually ended up sitting numb and alone in a coffee shop.

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Speaker 1: And yet it is almost certainly the case that we

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Speaker 1: are wrong on at least half of those details. It

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Speaker 1: did not happen that way. Hers says that the participants

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Speaker 1: in flashbulb studies refused to accept this fact, they will

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Speaker 1: not admit that their memories are wrong. Take the flash

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Speaker 1: Bob study done after the explosion of the Challenger space

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Speaker 1: shuttle in nineteen eighty six. The psychologist in charge sat

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Speaker 1: down with people months later and showed them how differently

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Speaker 1: they described things right after after the disaster. He showed

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Speaker 1: them what they actually wrote.

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Speaker 6: He says, is it they're handwriting? And they say yes,

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Speaker 6: But I don't know why I wrote that, because it's wrong.

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Speaker 6: You know. I agree, it's my handwriting. I agree I

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Speaker 6: must have written that, But I don't know why I

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Speaker 6: mind it because I clearly remember I was in the dorm,

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Speaker 6: even though this piece of paper says I was in

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Speaker 6: the cafeteria. So this overwhelming confidence that people have.

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Speaker 1: Now, why are we so adamant on the subject of memory.

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Speaker 1: Because we're memory fundamentalists. We think our memory is a

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Speaker 1: camera recording our life in real time with a video

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Speaker 1: timestamped and stored for later retrieval.

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Speaker 6: It's not like memory is when you remember something, you're

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Speaker 6: retrieving it and it remains absolutely stable, and then you

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Speaker 6: put it in the footlights of your consciousness. It's more

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Speaker 6: that when you retrieve it, it's open up to the

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Speaker 6: possibility of change.

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Speaker 1: Every time we retrieve it memory. In other words, there's

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Speaker 1: a chance it can get contaminated. We hear some new

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Speaker 1: detail somewhere about the event, and without realizing it, we

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Speaker 1: just added in memory. Researchers talk a lot about what

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Speaker 1: they call time slice airs. A couple of things happen

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Speaker 1: in the same general time frame, and we get the

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Speaker 1: sequence all jumbled up. Didi says she and I talked

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Speaker 1: in person that morning of nine to eleven. I have

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Speaker 1: no recollection of it, but she does.

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Speaker 8: I'm almost positively spoke inside the apartment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And then I really said I was getting

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Speaker 1: on a plane the next day.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 8: And you were like kind of cocky about it too.

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Speaker 8: You're like you kind of looked at me like, oh, Gordon,

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Speaker 8: stop being so neurotic, and you're like, don't you know

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Speaker 8: this is the safest time to get on an airplane

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Speaker 8: is when something like this happens.

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Speaker 1: I could be really quite conscending.

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Speaker 8: It turns out it's my favorite thing about you.

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Speaker 1: I decided to do a little fact checking. I still

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Speaker 1: have by date books from two thousand and one. I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty meticulous about keeping track of my travel, and I

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Speaker 1: did not have an airplane trip planned for September twelfth. Now,

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm mistaken, maybe DD's right, But according to my records,

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Speaker 1: I flew to Montreal on September nineteenth, eight days later.

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Speaker 1: I think our conversation about flights must have been right

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Speaker 1: before that trip, because why would I say it's the

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Speaker 1: safest time to fly on the morning of nine to eleven.

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Speaker 1: That's something you would only say after the airports had

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Speaker 1: reopened with much tighter security. I think DD made a

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Speaker 1: time slice era at some point she mistakenly moved that

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Speaker 1: memory to the morning of nine to eleven, because it

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Speaker 1: seems plausible that we would have talked about planes that morning.

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Speaker 1: Now does that make d d a liar? Is she

387
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Speaker 1: working some self promoting angle? Didi is one of the

388
00:22:03,636 --> 00:22:06,956
Speaker 1: most honest people I've ever met. She simply did what

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00:22:07,036 --> 00:22:10,996
Speaker 1: human beings do when it came to traumatic events. There

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Speaker 1: is our memory and there is the truth, and the

391
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Speaker 1: two are not the same. Okay, So what if it's

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Speaker 1: not nine to eleven. What if it's a couple of

393
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Speaker 1: years later, at the very beginning of the Iraq War.

394
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Speaker 1: What if I'm in a convoy of helicopters deep in

395
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Speaker 1: enemy territory, scared out of my wits, and the helicopter

396
00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:33,196
Speaker 1: ahead of me gets hit. And I'm a reporter, and

397
00:22:33,236 --> 00:22:35,636
Speaker 1: I interview lots of people that day about what happened,

398
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Speaker 1: and retell the story so many times that their details

399
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Speaker 1: become my details, and I start to think that it

400
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Speaker 1: was my helicopter that got hit. When I read your paper,

401
00:22:46,996 --> 00:22:52,396
Speaker 1: the first person that came to mind is Brian Williams. Ah, Yes, Yes,

402
00:22:53,716 --> 00:22:57,876
Speaker 1: didn't he just committed an incredibly normal human Yes. So

403
00:22:57,876 --> 00:23:00,716
Speaker 1: that was my view, and it was a view of

404
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Speaker 1: most of the people in the memory field that I

405
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Speaker 1: know of. You're of the mind that he genuinely believed

406
00:23:08,436 --> 00:23:14,116
Speaker 1: the story as told it. Yes, Now do you see

407
00:23:14,196 --> 00:23:17,876
Speaker 1: Brian Williams predicament. Everyone thinks he's lying in order to

408
00:23:17,876 --> 00:23:21,916
Speaker 1: paint himself as some heroic war correspondent. But he doesn't

409
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Speaker 1: think he's lying. He honestly believes he was in the

410
00:23:24,996 --> 00:23:28,436
Speaker 1: lead helicopter with the same confidence we all have in

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Speaker 1: our FLASHBAULB memories. Did he remembers plain as day that

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Speaker 1: I was catching a flight on September twelfth? People in

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Speaker 1: FLASHBOLB studies look at their own handwriting from years earlier,

414
00:23:38,636 --> 00:23:41,516
Speaker 1: and say that can't be right. That's not how I

415
00:23:41,556 --> 00:23:42,076
Speaker 1: remember it.

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Speaker 7: And on Thursday, NBC News announced that Brian Williams, a

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Speaker 7: twenty two year veteran of this network, would not be

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Speaker 7: returning as the anchor of NBC Nightly News. He steps down.

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Speaker 1: When Brian Williams does his penance on The Today Show

420
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Speaker 1: in mid twenty thirteen, he and Matt Lower go around

421
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Speaker 1: and around in circles.

422
00:24:00,716 --> 00:24:04,876
Speaker 2: I told the story correctly for years before I told

423
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Speaker 2: it incorrectly. I was not trying to mislead people. That

424
00:24:11,436 --> 00:24:13,556
Speaker 2: to me is a huge difference here.

425
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Speaker 1: But Matt Lower is having none of it.

426
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Speaker 7: I worry as you say this, Brian, that people who

427
00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:21,516
Speaker 7: are going to have listened to your apology on air

428
00:24:21,756 --> 00:24:25,076
Speaker 7: and in other areas Facebook and Stars and Stripes, who

429
00:24:25,236 --> 00:24:29,196
Speaker 7: heard you use words like conflated aircraft or made mistakes

430
00:24:29,276 --> 00:24:32,116
Speaker 7: with my memory of certain things, are now going to

431
00:24:32,156 --> 00:24:33,956
Speaker 7: hear what you're saying now, and they're going to say

432
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Speaker 7: he's still saying he didn't intend to mislead people, and

433
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Speaker 7: yet he didn't tell the truth. And he had to know,

434
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Speaker 7: as the guy who lived through those experiences, that it

435
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Speaker 7: wasn't the truth.

436
00:24:45,236 --> 00:24:47,756
Speaker 1: He had to know as the guy who lived through

437
00:24:47,796 --> 00:24:52,396
Speaker 1: those experiences that it wasn't the truth. No, that's one

438
00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:56,196
Speaker 1: hundred percent wrong. What should Matt Lower have said? He

439
00:24:56,236 --> 00:25:00,556
Speaker 1: should have said, Brian, memory is fallible. You're a public figure.

440
00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:03,356
Speaker 1: For goodness sake, the next time you go on National

441
00:25:03,396 --> 00:25:05,956
Speaker 1: TV to tell a war story, go back and check

442
00:25:05,996 --> 00:25:08,876
Speaker 1: to see if your story is accurate. But Lower doesn't

443
00:25:08,876 --> 00:25:12,516
Speaker 1: say the Today's Show interview was built as tough minded,

444
00:25:12,676 --> 00:25:18,036
Speaker 1: uncompromising journalism. It was actually the opposite, an interrogation about

445
00:25:18,116 --> 00:25:21,076
Speaker 1: memory conducted by someone who hasn't the slightest clue how

446
00:25:21,116 --> 00:25:24,476
Speaker 1: memories work. And what is Brian Williams supposed to do?

447
00:25:25,396 --> 00:25:28,596
Speaker 1: He is no defense. All he can do is debase himself.

448
00:25:29,316 --> 00:25:35,356
Speaker 2: I understand it. This came from clearly a bad place,

449
00:25:35,556 --> 00:25:41,756
Speaker 2: a bad urge inside me. This was clearly ego driven,

450
00:25:41,836 --> 00:25:46,636
Speaker 2: the desire to better my role in a story I

451
00:25:46,796 --> 00:25:54,516
Speaker 2: was already in. That's what I've been tearing apart and unpacking.

452
00:25:55,516 --> 00:26:00,236
Speaker 1: This comes from clearly a bad place. Once again wrong.

453
00:26:00,836 --> 00:26:04,516
Speaker 1: It comes from the most human of places, and Matt Lower,

454
00:26:04,836 --> 00:26:08,196
Speaker 1: Matt Lower, for heaven's sake, puts on the high hat.

455
00:26:09,236 --> 00:26:11,836
Speaker 7: Days after you told the story on Nightly News. You

456
00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:14,276
Speaker 7: went on the air and you apologized, and I just

457
00:26:14,316 --> 00:26:18,156
Speaker 7: said you used terms like I'm mistaken, I was mistaken

458
00:26:18,196 --> 00:26:21,956
Speaker 7: in my recollections. Did you give thought at the time

459
00:26:22,356 --> 00:26:23,476
Speaker 7: to going on the air and.

460
00:26:23,436 --> 00:26:24,156
Speaker 6: Saying I lied.

461
00:26:27,396 --> 00:26:30,076
Speaker 1: Matt Lower, by the way, had an entire staff whose

462
00:26:30,156 --> 00:26:33,316
Speaker 1: job it was to prepare him for interviews. This research

463
00:26:33,396 --> 00:26:36,156
Speaker 1: on memory is not a secret. Bill Hurst is at

464
00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:39,156
Speaker 1: the New School on fourteenth Street and Fifth Avenue in Manhattan.

465
00:26:39,636 --> 00:26:42,876
Speaker 1: Hurst's co author, Liz Phelps, is at NYU, down the

466
00:26:42,916 --> 00:26:46,756
Speaker 1: street from Rockefeller Center, where the Today Show is taped.

467
00:26:47,076 --> 00:26:50,916
Speaker 1: Two of the world's leading experts on memory are four

468
00:26:51,156 --> 00:26:54,036
Speaker 1: subway stops away on the B or D trains On

469
00:26:54,076 --> 00:26:56,076
Speaker 1: a nice day, Laura could have walked it.

470
00:26:56,516 --> 00:26:59,916
Speaker 7: How hard is this not to put words in your mouth?

471
00:26:59,956 --> 00:27:02,556
Speaker 7: But had you gone on the air that night and say, folks,

472
00:27:03,076 --> 00:27:05,876
Speaker 7: I lied and I'm sorry, do you think the outcome

473
00:27:05,916 --> 00:27:08,076
Speaker 7: would have been different? Do you think forgiveness would have

474
00:27:08,116 --> 00:27:08,676
Speaker 7: come sooner?

475
00:27:10,036 --> 00:27:14,356
Speaker 1: Except he didn't lie. Lying in this instance would be

476
00:27:14,396 --> 00:27:17,556
Speaker 1: Brian Williams pretending that he deliberately made up that story.

477
00:27:17,956 --> 00:27:20,956
Speaker 1: So Matt Lower is saying that he would rather Williams

478
00:27:20,996 --> 00:27:24,396
Speaker 1: had lied and confessed that he'd lied, rather than having

479
00:27:24,436 --> 00:27:26,916
Speaker 1: told the truth, that he honestly thought he was telling

480
00:27:26,916 --> 00:27:30,396
Speaker 1: the truth. The Council of Cardinals could not make sense

481
00:27:30,396 --> 00:27:37,236
Speaker 1: of the moral logic of that. By the way, it's

482
00:27:37,276 --> 00:27:40,436
Speaker 1: worth noting that the whole Brian Williams saga is a

483
00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:45,716
Speaker 1: case steady in memory failure. CNN's Brian Stelter interviews Don Hellis,

484
00:27:45,756 --> 00:27:48,596
Speaker 1: the pilot of the helicopter that got shot down. He

485
00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:52,916
Speaker 1: asked Hellis when he first heard Brian Williams mischaracterizing what happened,

486
00:27:53,396 --> 00:27:57,116
Speaker 1: and Hellis says, oh, a few weeks later, when I

487
00:27:57,116 --> 00:28:00,036
Speaker 1: got back to Kuwait, meaning in two thousand and three.

488
00:28:00,876 --> 00:28:04,236
Speaker 5: This is crucial, mister Hellis, because according to the timeline

489
00:28:04,276 --> 00:28:06,556
Speaker 5: that we've been looking at for the past several days,

490
00:28:06,716 --> 00:28:08,796
Speaker 5: it wasn't until about two thousand and seven that Brian

491
00:28:08,836 --> 00:28:12,556
Speaker 5: Willing began to embellish this story about being actually nearby

492
00:28:12,676 --> 00:28:15,036
Speaker 5: or even on the chopper that was struck by the RPG.

493
00:28:15,316 --> 00:28:17,836
Speaker 5: So you're saying you heard it on television in two

494
00:28:17,876 --> 00:28:21,236
Speaker 5: thousand and three.

495
00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:21,716
Speaker 6: Well, I'm saying I heard on the internet.

496
00:28:21,756 --> 00:28:25,116
Speaker 2: That was an interview an Internet.

497
00:28:24,836 --> 00:28:26,716
Speaker 5: Video of the television segment.

498
00:28:26,916 --> 00:28:31,156
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, Stelter is way too nice to say it,

499
00:28:31,676 --> 00:28:35,276
Speaker 1: but hellas can't be right. His recollection is off by

500
00:28:35,476 --> 00:28:40,036
Speaker 1: four years, and does he realize how badly he's misremembered

501
00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:45,436
Speaker 1: the dates. No, he's adamant. Then another man comes forward,

502
00:28:45,796 --> 00:28:50,156
Speaker 1: the pilot of William's helicopter, and claims they did take

503
00:28:50,236 --> 00:28:54,996
Speaker 1: small arms fire, goes on CNN, adds some gossipy details.

504
00:28:55,636 --> 00:28:58,276
Speaker 1: Then a day later the pilot takes it all back.

505
00:28:58,636 --> 00:29:01,956
Speaker 1: Quote the information I gave you was true based on

506
00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:06,196
Speaker 1: my memories. But at this point I'm questioning my memories,

507
00:29:06,556 --> 00:29:09,836
Speaker 1: which might be the first self aware thing said anyone

508
00:29:10,036 --> 00:29:15,876
Speaker 1: during this whole sorry affair. In the Brian Williams case,

509
00:29:16,316 --> 00:29:20,076
Speaker 1: everyone was allowed to have a bad memory except Brian Williams.

510
00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:23,436
Speaker 1: Sorry to harp on him, but I did think it

511
00:29:23,476 --> 00:29:25,436
Speaker 1: is he was cheated, very unfair.

512
00:29:25,556 --> 00:29:25,876
Speaker 4: He was.

513
00:29:25,916 --> 00:29:26,956
Speaker 6: I think absolutely.

514
00:29:27,716 --> 00:29:30,956
Speaker 1: I'm waiting to see the formation of cognitive psychologists for

515
00:29:31,116 --> 00:29:35,316
Speaker 1: Brian Williams as a lobby group. I was thinking of

516
00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:35,876
Speaker 1: doing it.

517
00:29:36,756 --> 00:29:49,236
Speaker 3: I felt so sorry for him.

518
00:29:49,276 --> 00:29:52,636
Speaker 4: Thanks for doing this roast, Thank you for joining us, Ronan.

519
00:29:52,516 --> 00:29:53,876
Speaker 9: And thank you everybody for coming.

520
00:29:54,076 --> 00:29:54,356
Speaker 4: Yes.

521
00:29:54,756 --> 00:29:55,116
Speaker 7: Hello.

522
00:29:55,716 --> 00:29:59,276
Speaker 1: Not long ago, after the Harvey Weinstein scandal broke, I

523
00:29:59,316 --> 00:30:01,636
Speaker 1: went to a talk in Manhattan at the ninety second

524
00:30:01,676 --> 00:30:05,836
Speaker 1: Street Why. It was a conversation between Rose McGowan, who

525
00:30:05,916 --> 00:30:07,916
Speaker 1: was the first actress to go on the record with

526
00:30:07,956 --> 00:30:12,276
Speaker 1: accusations against wine Stein, and Ronan Faroh, who wrote the definitive,

527
00:30:12,396 --> 00:30:15,836
Speaker 1: devastating account of the Weinstein case for the New Yorker magazine.

528
00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:20,796
Speaker 1: It was a fascinating and sometimes strange evening. McGowan speaks

529
00:30:20,836 --> 00:30:24,156
Speaker 1: in a kind of elliptical poetry. It's not always obvious

530
00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:27,356
Speaker 1: what she means. Pharaoh was a lawyer before he turned

531
00:30:27,396 --> 00:30:29,476
Speaker 1: to journalism. He's rigorous.

532
00:30:31,236 --> 00:30:36,996
Speaker 4: So when asked me, if you were in oz, who

533
00:30:36,996 --> 00:30:37,516
Speaker 4: would you be?

534
00:30:39,036 --> 00:30:39,636
Speaker 2: Who would you be?

535
00:30:39,796 --> 00:30:41,076
Speaker 7: ROAs the curtain?

536
00:30:42,116 --> 00:30:43,116
Speaker 4: I would be the curtain.

537
00:30:45,236 --> 00:30:47,276
Speaker 9: You're not the man behind the curtain. You are the curtain.

538
00:30:47,316 --> 00:30:51,796
Speaker 4: I am the curtain. The curtain's very pretty. The curtain

539
00:30:51,876 --> 00:30:54,596
Speaker 4: gets used kicked aside. Nobody really notices a curtain. They're

540
00:30:54,596 --> 00:30:56,836
Speaker 4: appreciative that it's there, but to just pull aside when

541
00:30:56,836 --> 00:31:00,156
Speaker 4: it's done. But it absorbs everything from both sides. From

542
00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:02,996
Speaker 4: this side presentationally, it looks so great to you, right,

543
00:31:03,636 --> 00:31:05,916
Speaker 4: this is the curtain that you see from the backside.

544
00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:10,236
Speaker 4: You see everything too. What he knows is the curtain.

545
00:31:10,756 --> 00:31:11,956
Speaker 4: The curtain's taking notes.

546
00:31:13,556 --> 00:31:16,756
Speaker 1: McGowan is someone who requires an interpreter, and there was

547
00:31:16,796 --> 00:31:20,236
Speaker 1: one moment that really struck me when Pharaoh talked about

548
00:31:20,356 --> 00:31:23,636
Speaker 1: what being an interpreter meant. He was trying to get

549
00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:26,556
Speaker 1: people at NBC, where he worked at the time, to

550
00:31:26,636 --> 00:31:29,076
Speaker 1: take McGowan's accusations seriously.

551
00:31:29,716 --> 00:31:33,956
Speaker 9: I spent a year listening to a lot of powerful

552
00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:40,796
Speaker 9: men call these women who were relating the worst experiences

553
00:31:40,836 --> 00:31:47,596
Speaker 9: of a lifetime crazy, call them unstable, call them unreliable narrators,

554
00:31:48,516 --> 00:31:50,396
Speaker 9: and a lot worse things that I won't repeat on

555
00:31:50,436 --> 00:31:53,036
Speaker 9: this stage. You know that was something that was lobbed

556
00:31:53,076 --> 00:31:56,356
Speaker 9: at your story countless times. I sat in rooms and

557
00:31:56,396 --> 00:31:59,236
Speaker 9: defended the fact that that on the record testimony from

558
00:31:59,276 --> 00:32:02,796
Speaker 9: you mattered and what you use so people like NBC.

559
00:32:04,276 --> 00:32:06,796
Speaker 1: A few minutes later, the two of them start talking

560
00:32:06,796 --> 00:32:09,596
Speaker 1: about what it takes for a story like McGowan's to

561
00:32:09,676 --> 00:32:12,196
Speaker 1: break through all the skepticism and indifference.

562
00:32:12,916 --> 00:32:15,396
Speaker 9: I think when women come forward individually and they do

563
00:32:15,436 --> 00:32:17,396
Speaker 9: a blog post or a social media post and tell

564
00:32:17,436 --> 00:32:20,276
Speaker 9: their story, that's great. The question is it's then incumbent

565
00:32:20,316 --> 00:32:22,996
Speaker 9: on reporters to do right by that and the best

566
00:32:23,036 --> 00:32:25,316
Speaker 9: way to do justice, I think to any person coming

567
00:32:25,316 --> 00:32:28,916
Speaker 9: forward with a difficult story is to interrogate it as

568
00:32:29,076 --> 00:32:33,556
Speaker 9: thoroughly as possible, and you know, lend credence farth where

569
00:32:33,596 --> 00:32:35,876
Speaker 9: it's due.

570
00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:40,356
Speaker 1: One of the battle cries of the fight against sexual

571
00:32:40,396 --> 00:32:45,196
Speaker 1: predation has been believe the women. But notice that's not

572
00:32:45,316 --> 00:32:48,756
Speaker 1: what Pharaoh is saying. He did. He says the best

573
00:32:48,796 --> 00:32:51,796
Speaker 1: way to do justice to any person coming forward with

574
00:32:51,836 --> 00:32:55,436
Speaker 1: a difficult story is to interrogate it as thoroughly as

575
00:32:55,476 --> 00:33:01,396
Speaker 1: possible and lend credence where it's due. Pharaoh didn't believe

576
00:33:02,036 --> 00:33:07,196
Speaker 1: Rose McGowan. Pharaoh listened to Rose McGowan. He took her seriously.

577
00:33:08,116 --> 00:33:11,516
Speaker 1: That's what memory does, demands. What if Rose McGowan had

578
00:33:11,556 --> 00:33:14,036
Speaker 1: said that she'd been assaulted by Weinstein in a hotel

579
00:33:14,116 --> 00:33:16,276
Speaker 1: room in Paris and it turned out to have been

580
00:33:16,316 --> 00:33:18,956
Speaker 1: in London, and she said it had happened in March

581
00:33:19,196 --> 00:33:22,396
Speaker 1: and it turned out to be July. Can you imagine

582
00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:25,596
Speaker 1: her on the Today Show twisting and turning as she

583
00:33:25,676 --> 00:33:28,316
Speaker 1: tries to defend that lapse in memory. To Matt Lower,

584
00:33:29,156 --> 00:33:31,756
Speaker 1: you said you were in Paris, you were miles away

585
00:33:31,756 --> 00:33:34,236
Speaker 1: in London. You had to know, as the woman who

586
00:33:34,276 --> 00:33:38,236
Speaker 1: lived through those experiences that it wasn't the truth. But

587
00:33:38,436 --> 00:33:41,996
Speaker 1: remembering yourself in one place when you were actually in

588
00:33:42,076 --> 00:33:45,756
Speaker 1: another does not mean that you're lying. It just means

589
00:33:45,756 --> 00:33:49,156
Speaker 1: that uncovering the truth requires an understanding of what memory

590
00:33:49,236 --> 00:33:53,556
Speaker 1: can and cannot do. If we don't get the small

591
00:33:53,636 --> 00:33:57,516
Speaker 1: cases right, the Brian Williams cases, we're going to be

592
00:33:57,556 --> 00:33:59,156
Speaker 1: helpless at the big cases.

593
00:34:00,076 --> 00:34:03,556
Speaker 2: Looking back, it had to have been ego that made

594
00:34:03,596 --> 00:34:11,396
Speaker 2: me think I had to be sharper, funnier, quicker than

595
00:34:12,156 --> 00:34:17,676
Speaker 2: anybody else, put myself closer to the action having been

596
00:34:17,836 --> 00:34:19,636
Speaker 2: at the action in the beginning.

597
00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:25,996
Speaker 1: Oh, please stop apologizing for a crime you didn't commit.

598
00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:42,436
Speaker 1: Free Brian Williams. Revisionist History is a Panoply production. The

599
00:34:42,516 --> 00:34:46,796
Speaker 1: senior producer is mil LaBelle, with Jacob Smith and Camille Baptista.

600
00:34:47,396 --> 00:34:50,996
Speaker 1: Our editor is Julia Barton. Flon Williams is our engineer.

601
00:34:51,356 --> 00:34:55,276
Speaker 1: Fact checking by Beth Johnson. Original music by Luis Quiera.

602
00:34:55,756 --> 00:35:01,036
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Andy Bauers and Jake Blisberg. I'm Malcolm vladmam.

603
00:35:13,476 --> 00:35:16,156
Speaker 1: So what's interesting is so I'm sure you called me,

604
00:35:17,596 --> 00:35:20,476
Speaker 1: and you're sure you called me, but there's a chance.

605
00:35:20,316 --> 00:35:22,516
Speaker 8: I'm almost one hundred percent positive I called you, and

606
00:35:22,756 --> 00:35:23,676
Speaker 8: I am too.

607
00:35:23,836 --> 00:35:26,236
Speaker 1: But there is a chance that you didn't call me.

608
00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:30,436
Speaker 8: There isn't a chance because I know I called.

609
00:35:30,196 --> 00:35:33,036
Speaker 1: You, I know you called me too, But I know,

610
00:35:33,116 --> 00:35:34,916
Speaker 1: I know it's incredibly hard to deal with, but it's like,

611
00:35:35,196 --> 00:35:36,956
Speaker 1: there's a chance you didn't. I mean, there's a chance

612
00:35:36,956 --> 00:35:39,556
Speaker 1: you knocked on my door, you know.

613
00:35:40,156 --> 00:35:42,596
Speaker 8: But then I started thinking about did I really knock

614
00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:45,516
Speaker 8: on his door? Because I respected your privacy as you

615
00:35:45,556 --> 00:35:48,636
Speaker 8: respected mine, and I would have never just went up

616
00:35:48,636 --> 00:35:50,316
Speaker 8: to knock on your door just in case that you

617
00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:53,716
Speaker 8: had like a lady up there or something, so in

618
00:35:53,756 --> 00:35:56,596
Speaker 8: respect for that, I would have probably called you first.

619
00:35:56,316 --> 00:35:59,796
Speaker 1: Just me, not even if like the twin towers are

620
00:35:59,876 --> 00:36:01,156
Speaker 1: smoking on the you know.

621
00:36:01,196 --> 00:36:04,876
Speaker 8: I would have not walked upstairs to interrupt your your

622
00:36:05,236 --> 00:36:08,596
Speaker 8: intimate moment with a lady friend, even if the twin

623
00:36:08,676 --> 00:36:13,236
Speaker 8: towers were on fire. But please don't conclude that in

624
00:36:13,276 --> 00:36:14,396
Speaker 8: your podcast.

625
00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:24,316
Speaker 9: Knock been waiting for you, Waiting for you.

626
00:36:25,396 --> 00:36:26,756
Speaker 1: Three sp