WEBVTT - Anarchist Infrastructure Ft. Andrew 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:10.640 Oh yeah, it could happen here, it being a podcast 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:16.599 hosted by myself, Christopher Wong and the minute Inimitable. Amenab 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:19.320 blah blah blah blah blah, and Andrew, Andrew High, you're 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.280 in charge, Thank you, thank I almost stuck that landing. 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:25.560 I was so not sucking it up. Are you guys? 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:32.120 Proud the way there being consistent and I consistent? I 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:34.120 mean that you sucked it up again, I'm proud. Yeah. 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:36.480 I shouldn't have tried to say inimitable that was that 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:38.600 that was always going to be a disaster. Yeah, it was, 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:39.919 it was. It was. It was like one of those 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.800 gymnastics landings where it's like they landed and then both 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:44.440 your feet go in the ground and they jump and 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:49.840 they fall. Yeah, it's very like that when I yeah, 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:52.159 well all right, Andrew, what do you? What do you? 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:53.440 What do you? What do you? What do you? What 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.600 do you? What do you got for us today? Right? 0:00:56.160 --> 0:01:01.480 So for this UM, this this episode's topic. UM. The 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:09.800 story begins with Reddit. Unfortunately that's not a great sign. 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:18.480 Well Reddit and Twitter? Yeah, the the two horsemen UM 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:24.960 and the discourse that occurred on those sites. Uh while 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:31.160 ago UM particularly related to like infrastructure and infrastructure and 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:35.240 the anarchic right. I mean, we all know to be 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:41.720 a sick. Principles society UM related to autonomy allow people 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:45.160 to define themselves and organize themselves on their own terms. 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.480 UM horizontalism. You know, people able to organize so that 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.440 no one dominates anyone else and no one exercises power. 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.400 UM move others. Mutual aid so people able to help 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:02.600 one another voluntarily, their bonds of solidarity and networks of 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:06.640 generosity that keep the social fabric together. You know. Free 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.960 association allows people to cooperate with who they want to 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.560 and how they see fit. And also conversely, you know, 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.760 refuse and disassociate. We need to be Yeah, that's a 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:21.000 key one that people don't emphasize it. Yeah, the free 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:27.160 disassociation definitely not be associated with certain people. Yeah, I mean, 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.040 because you can't freely associate. If you don't have the 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.680 option to freely disassociate, it is like running into a 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.639 cage and then you can't exit. Everyone should be able 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:42.399 to move freely as well. Emphasize which is I think 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.639 one of the things that radicalized me most was UM 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.239 the existence of borders because to me, at least, like 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:51.959 when you're born. You know, you have this spawn point, 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.919 and it seems absurd to me that just spawn point 0:02:56.160 --> 0:03:01.480 should have so much control over you know, the outcome 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.320 of your life. You know, what rights and stuff you enjoy, 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:09.440 and where you can and can't go freely because none 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:10.800 of us have a choice in that matter. You know, 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.240 we can't exactly choose our parents, or choose or you know, 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.840 neighborhood or where we grew up whatever. And of course 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.240 borders of the national kind and the only ones I 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:25.400 guess suppose you know, um, you also oppose borders related 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:30.079 to gender and race and citizenship, and well that's relates 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.960 to borders. But yeah, and so how anarchists proposed we 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:37.720 get to this society is first and foremost the people 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:44.960 liberating themselves, the concept of self liberation. So people, and 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.400 not even speaking just in terms of workers, you know, 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:51.480 speaking in terms of gender and sexual minorities, speaking to 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:57.960 terms of racial groups, um, speaking in terms of disabled people. 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:01.840 You know, they must at the forefront of their own libration. 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.640 Freedom cannot be given, it has to be taken. And 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:12.440 so through direct action, which is when we directly act 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:18.320 without the middle channels of authorities representatives, we make those 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:24.520 changes for ourselves and through other methods we pursue the 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:27.120 world that we wish to live in, which is the 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.400 whole prefigurative process of building a new in the shell 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:35.279 of the old. And so I think part of the 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.760 issue when it comes to discussions of anarchism and infrastructure 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:43.000 and supply lines and all these different things is that, Um, 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:47.159 I think people have this misconception, this this real strange 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.920 idea of what an archist revolution looks like. UM, where 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:55.280 you know, we flip a switch just overnight and boom, 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:58.599 anarchist society. We have nothing in place, we have no 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:03.080 organization or systems or networks in places, just boom, staff 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:04.400 of fingers and all of a sudden we are all 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:09.920 living under anarchy. But in reality, um, you know, as 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:16.080 Kirpotkin expressed, there's no fallacy as harmful as the fallacy 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:20.719 the one day revolution. Obviously there's going to be a transition. UM. 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:22.560 In fact, a lot of people like to define anarchism 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.640 as an ongoing process moving further and further towards the 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.920 ideal of anarchy. Um. The whole idea is not whether 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.480 or not there will be a transitional society or kind 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.440 of transition that will be and so in this period 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.880 of transition is when we would be engaging in the 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:43.520 different forms of social experimentation to UM manifest you know, 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:51.280 anarchist principles in every facet of life. And of course 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:55.280 this is a process will involves engaging with local conditions 0:05:55.400 --> 0:06:02.880 and um local people and allowing those communities, those individuals 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:08.080 to get to go in for themselves. What structures and 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.760 systems are put in place. Part of the struggle is 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.839 going to involve mirroring the society that we wish to create. 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.919 So for our final goal is you know, communistic and 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:24.240 artistic society, that our methods must be as communistic as 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:28.880 an artistic as possible. Basic you know, duality of means 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.240 and ends. So when we speak of supply lines, when 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:37.320 we speak of infrastructure, the reality is that existing infrastructure 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.200 is not going to disappay overnight. Were are starting from 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.480 complete scratch. This isn't a new you know, minecraft world 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:45.640 that we have to go and punch some trees and 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:50.279 start society all over again. Revolution is destructive, but it's 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:55.240 also constructive and transformative. So I mean, we're not going 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.920 to get rid of all experts and all expertise. We're 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.080 not going to be floundering difficult, how to make penicill in. 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.159 You know, people in all fields and all industries and 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:08.560 all layers and all um you know backgrounds are going 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:11.200 to be involved in the process, you know, adapting their 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:16.560 work places, adapting the industries towards sustainable and anarchic ends. 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:18.840 And it's a process that's going on now and will 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:23.760 continue because if you know, we look at at revolution 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:29.040 as a combination of I think Eric ollen Right he 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.600 had in his book Envisioning Real Real Utopias three basic 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:40.080 concepts of transformation. He had ruptural transformation, interstitial transformation, and 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:45.000 symbiotic transformation. And so interstitial revolution is basically the idea 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.840 um it's basically a mirror of you know, prefigurative politics 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.800 as a theoretical means of societal transformation through progressively and 0:07:52.840 --> 0:08:00.240 strategically enlarging spaces of social empowerment. And ruptural transformation is 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:05.880 of course, I guess, the dichotomy between the insurrectionists and 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.920 everybody else, you know, where you have these moments of 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:16.239 social outposts, these moments of rupture where social forms and 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:22.600 social developments you know, undertaken and we sort of figure 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.440 out how we are, or rather we directly fight back 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:40.280 against you know, the systems are in place. I think 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.640 rupture is one of the more exciting forms. It's the 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:45.760 kind of form revolution of people tend to think of 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.599 when they think of the term revolution, this idea of 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.480 you know, all these this is this mass of people, 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.920 this crowd of people storming the bastill or whatever. Um. 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.880 But the real work of transformission is the stuff that 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:06.079 because you know, prior to and post those wounds of rupture. Well, 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:08.080 I I one of the terms I tend to like 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.720 that I've been thinking and reading about a lot is 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.200 is shatter zones. And these are this is like the 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:17.480 post rupture, right, these are the areas where state power 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.840 kind of collapses, or at least pieces of state power collapse. 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.120 And it's you know, the the shatter zones where kind 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.400 of you you see the state retreat in the wake 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.920 of a rupture, are where very terrible things tend to happen. 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.520 But there are also these zones of possibility. You know. 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.480 It's the places it's the kind of place where you 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:38.560 you can get an ethnic cleansing, and it's the kind 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.640 of place where you can get um rojava, you know, 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.000 like it's it's there they're these kind of zones of 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.760 possibility in the wake of of rupture. And I think 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.960 that's you know, a lot of the a lot of 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:55.880 the revolutionary kind of um imagery focuses on on the rupture, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:01.200 but the future is decided in the shatter zones, you know. Yeah. 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.480 And I think what people miss as well is the 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:08.200 stuff that builds up to those you know, shatter zoons, 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:15.400 which is that their organizations, their affinity groups, their networks 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:18.199 and structures in place that are able to support those 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.720 zoons that are able to you know, when those ruptures ore, 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.440 could support the people taking part in those fights and 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:30.400 expand you know, those zoons of possibilities. Yeah, I mean, 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:31.880 this is the kind of thing where like, if you're 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:36.000 looking at what what causes the difference between you know, 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:40.960 these disastrous, uh like disasters that happened kind of in 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.400 the wake of a rupture, horrible crimes against humanity, and 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.240 situations where something better gets built like it again, to 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.760 use the example of Rajava. The reason why that happened 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.480 there and why isis didn't win in that terrain is 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:58.040 that groups of activists had been organizing in a variety 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.240 of ways for years in that and so when the 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.679 state collapsed, there were armed groups, and those armed groups 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:07.760 were supported by farming cooperatives and groups of people who 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.520 had been organizing to provide supplies to each other and 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:17.280 um like community organizations like focused on social like development 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.920 and aid like there was. It's it's yeah, there's an 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:25.000 exists in place exactly exactly and that's that's what you know, 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:30.760 and you could catch ye yeah. And I think that's 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.480 also because there's another way this can go to where 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:37.600 it's like you get a lot of moments where you know, 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.240 like like May sixty eight in France looks like this 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:44.360 right where like like the like the prime minister at 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:48.079 the president, I forget what was at that time. That's 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:52.040 like you like literally like the country's leaders are flying 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.679 out of the country on helicopters because I think everything 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:57.520 is going to collapse and then it just sort of doesn't. 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.160 And I think one of one of the way as 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.520 you get you get this period that looks like rupture, 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:06.240 but then everything sort of closes back up in on 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.880 itself is if those networks aren't strong enough and you 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.240 don't have some kind of sufficient level of organization, like 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:17.120 there there isn't there isn't anything. It's like it's like 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.040 you have these moments where the state is discredited but 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:23.360 there's nothing to replace it, and then the and the 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.520 sort of void, the void isn't strong enough to just 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:31.240 sort of like have the state collapsed entirely. And so 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.720 what you guys this moment where it looks like everything 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.240 is going to change and then there's nothing happens. And 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.560 I think that's also a product of essentially the same thing. 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.319 It's just depending on the strength of the state, you 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.840 can get very different sort of outcomes from these moments 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:51.120 where sometimes it's able to restabilize itself, sometimes it isn't. Right, Yeah, 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.000 And I think we kind of saw that in a 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:58.679 way with protests where you had this massive, massive rupture 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:03.160 probably the largest one of the largest American history. Um 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.080 yet people in the streets and cities all over the country. 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.160 Um because the vast majority of them were just peaceful marches. 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.680 But you also did have some like serious moments of rupture, 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:18.880 like in Minneapolis and stuff. And I mean look at us, 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:24.800 you know, two years later, and while they are you know, 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.800 more community organizations, I think they're more people who are 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.160 a bit more conscious, with more whale who are you know, 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:37.239 radicalized and expanded their knowledge. Through that rupture, things basically 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.559 went back to the way they were in a lot 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:44.080 of ways, and other ways, you know, police budgets were 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:48.240 just increased. I think there was a current with the analogy, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.000 but I'll just go to the analogy of like a hydro, 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.679 where you know, the state, whenever it's attacked and stuff, 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.560 it's able to just restore itself, just able to recover 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:02.040 itself and able to like adapt to those sorts of attacks. 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:07.199 I remember reading in Tone of Everything where the David's 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.439 were talking about how the state they're using example, the 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:13.800 American state. They were saying, you know, the American state 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:18.400 of right is completely different in a lot of ways 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.560 from the American state of the two thous you know, 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:28.080 because the the state and statecraft is constantly evolving, constantly expanding, 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:32.440 constantly responding to you know, the conditions that they face. 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.920 We saw what happened in the twentieth century, you know, 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.720 the different movements that I could in that time, the 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.960 state was able to respond to those movements and adjust 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:52.280 itself accordingly. And so obviously when we have these ruptures, 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:58.360 we have these you know, moments of struggle and obviously 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:03.320 the times in between where we yuh pre figuring um 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:07.760 robust systems and alternative institutions that can support people those 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:12.880 womans of rupture um. Part of that isn't going to involve, 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:19.720 you know, defense, and the sue is not, oh, well, 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.040 how you defend revolution, because you want to defend revolution, 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.600 they don't know how to defend a revolution. But rather 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:30.920 parts of defending it is defending it from people's attempts 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:35.560 to seize power away from the masses, from the waking 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:39.800 class too, you know, cipher and that energy and use 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:46.240 it for the ends of smaller group, smaller class of 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.920 you know, whether it be parties or whatever the case 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.600 may be. Yeah, there's something there. I think you're going 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.120 back to, like thinking about borders and freedom of movement, 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:01.040 because if you look at like both the uss are 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:05.080 and China do this very quickly, which is that okay, 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.760 so you you you have the communist revolution, okay, and 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.200 theoretically class and power and then like the first thing 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.600 they do is set up in turnal border controls and 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:18.479 these like like I mean in China, they they're technically 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:24.520 like the the prohibition on movement is like technically over, 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.800 but the like the the household registration system still exists, 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:30.600 and it still determines whether you where you can get 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.600 benefits and how you get benefits, and whether you can 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:36.080 live in a city, and like what like how what's 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.360 the security you can access? Can you buy houses? Things 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:43.280 like that, like that kind of stuff. If if you're 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:47.720 not if if what you're doing is just putting a 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.840 group of people in power and not actually putting you know, 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.400 like if you want to talk about it in class terms, right, 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:58.680 it's like, okay, either the actual working class governs itself, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.880 like the class in the hiredy collectively makes decisions, or 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:05.439 you've just created to do like baruacrat class and if 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:06.920 you wind up with a new barracract classes, like yeah, 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.119 immediately look at what happens. It's like, oh, hey, a 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:11.440 bunch of people have now decided that like you can't 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:13.399 leave your home province because you don't have the right 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.439 registration and it's right, Okay, It's like that kind of 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:19.320 reminds me what you were saying about, you know, if 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.520 all the working classes was meant with the state. Reminds 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.760 you of the video is watching last night actually from 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:31.679 this YouTuber anarch Daniel Barrian UM. And he was talking 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:38.960 about I believe how the state is necessarily um exclusive. 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:45.040 If everybody holds power, then the state necessarily um must 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.560 be wiped out. Must he wipe to it? If not, 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.560 it's going to try to reclaim it's monopoly on power, 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:56.159 it's monopoly on violence. UM. It cannot exist without people 0:17:56.440 --> 0:18:04.040 under it, you know. And so as you know, we 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.880 are engaging in this as we are, you know, organizing strikes, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:12.479 creating networks of activists, creating assemblies, UM, creating you know, 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:19.280 self finance schools and social centers and cooperatives and all 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:25.320 these different forms of infrastructure that can weather and exists 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:33.040 under capitalism, but serve as prefigurations of all potential beyond capitalisms. 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.200 And so I guess the pivot um back to the 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.720 topic I was speaking of in the beginning. With regard 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.960 to infrastructure. You know, all of history books and stuf 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.480 general history books tend to speak of the government, centralized 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.679 government states souf arising also the new to build and 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:04.280 maintain like these big infrastructure projects. They then to use 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.919 example of irrigation. It's taken for granted, you know, staken 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.440 as a given that bureaucracies and such were necessary for 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.639 organizing these large populations. And while you know, the Galter 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:17.719 and principles may thrive in a small scale, they just 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.680 cannot scale up when populations get any bigger than like 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:24.359 a small band of people. But what we do know 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:29.560 is that complex rural irrigation systems and the Galter and 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.280 urban decision making systems have oc could in you know, 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.760 human history, that our answers were able to organize those 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.960 those institutions without the state, without a centralized body with 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:47.560 a with with with cosive, you know, authority. There's also 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.000 like this implicit assumption, you know, when people make these assolutions, 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:56.280 that societies must necessarily grow and endlessly grow, and that 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.440 we cannot choose to limit our scale in any way 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:04.480 to avoid centralization, to enhance eqalitarianism. You know, we can't 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:09.760 steal ourselves down to all manageable levels a d growth um. 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.119 And as you've see, that's just not true. You know, 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:18.440 we are capable of making those shifts. You know, large 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.960 scale projects like irrigation or or you know, supply lines 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.480 and stuff. They do require coordination, but coordination is not 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:31.520 synonymous with the state. Coordination is not synonymous with hierarchy. Yeah, 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.080 and that's something that's interest It's interesting to me the 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:37.960 way people, like how badly people think about that because 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.199 like even even even in terms of sort of like 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:46.359 mercantile is trade right, like that kind of like long 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.560 range coordination, long range like moving goods across the world 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:55.320 has like it's but mostly not been states doing that. 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.440 Like it's you know, and you can talk about like okay, whatever, 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:01.719 it's like it's however you sort of want to think 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:03.920 about the market mechanisms here, but like, yeah, like people 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.800 have been people. People have been moving stuff from one 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.879 side of the world to the other, like essentially without 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:13.239 the state having anything to do with it, for like 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:17.800 as long as there have been people exactly. I think 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:20.200 that's one of the things that frustrates me most about 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.320 the discourse about like any kind of post capitalism is 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.080 this um this purposefully. I think in a lot of 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:33.520 cases like malignant ly um inaccurate um attitude that like 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:39.800 the idea of people like exchanging goods and services is 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:43.119 fundamentally capitalist. That the idea of people like organizing that 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.120 the that like a factory right is something that has 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.560 to be has to be either organized under capitalist models 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:55.159 or under state socialist models as exactly as if people 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.879 haven't done it in other ways. Right, this is not theoretical. 0:21:57.920 --> 0:21:59.680 We're not like trying to pose it like well maybe 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:01.600 it could work this way. It's like, no motherfucker's have 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:07.720 done this. Yeah, we have practical examples even on the capitalism. Yeah, 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.000 stuff like the mon Dragon Corporation and whatnot, Like it's 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:15.200 not um, it's like it's this is not like theoretical 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:17.880 stuff that we're talking about. I was thinking more long 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:21.160 lines of what happened in Argentina. Yeah. Yeah, you don't 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:25.639 even something going with food of the back as you know, 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:30.600 like the CNT which getting into yeah a little bit. Yeah, yeah, 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:31.800 like that's something. Well, I mean I think I think 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.000 part of what's happening there is it's like, yeah, like 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:37.480 people have run factories in other ways, and every single 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:39.879 time they try to do it, every other political faction 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:42.240 on Earth sets out, set aside all the political differences 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:44.280 and goes and tries to kill them, and it's like 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:48.760 this is not that's that's true. That's true. I'm also 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:51.439 reminded of the fact that you know parts of what happened, 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:53.840 and how do the assue that you know it could 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:58.480 in Argentina and as I could elsewhere. Um is this 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:01.680 concept that I think my call Albert Um talks about 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:04.600 a lot, this idea how they coordinator class and the 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:07.240 issues that arise out of that sort of coordinates a class. 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:12.000 And so I think part of that sort of organization 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:13.760 is going to involve confronting that, you know, we tend 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.119 to think of it in terms of, you know, the 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:21.240 capitalist ownership and getting rid of the capitalists, but there's 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.320 you know, a lot more play than than just just 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:30.800 the capitalist kind of the firm is the firm? I 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:34.600 think it's also like this sort of assumption that people 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:37.639 aren't capable of like taking any kind of you know. 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:40.040 I think there's this kind of way, the submistion that 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:44.680 people aren't capable of taking initiative that people aren't capable 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:48.160 of of, you know, um, seeing the needs around them 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:51.920 and organizing to fulfill them. So when people end up, 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:54.560 you know, trying to do these sculches and stuff with 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:56.200 anarchists like, oh, well, how are you going to do 0:23:56.280 --> 0:24:01.640 with garbage? It's like people don't like arbage around them, 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:04.760 you know, which is why we have a sanitation system, 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:07.159 which is why we have garbage disposal systems in place. 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:14.440 But you know, under this system, because everything is all 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:17.440 the costs of you know, our consumption and stuff are 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:21.080 externalized and hidden. People don't have to think about the 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:25.280 ways that you know, our actions are affecting our local 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:29.160 um you know ecosystem. You know, we see that we 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:31.800 pay other countries to or at least one like I say, 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:36.600 a week, um, the US, the USPS, other countries. I mean, 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:38.360 we have a problem and in turn out as well, 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:41.520 where all of our waste um just gets dumped like 0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:45.080 right next to them out groove And there's a community 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:50.680 right opposite the highway where the dump is located. And 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:53.639 you know they booon garbage day and it's like the 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:56.359 boont garbage is like a constant smell of boont coarbage 0:24:56.359 --> 0:24:58.840 around that community. And it's of course the most improverished 0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:04.320 community in the country and US. It's a whole thing. Um. 0:25:04.320 --> 0:25:09.199 But I digress. You know, when we aren't able to 0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:13.520 just you know, externalize the costs of you know, how 0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:17.800 we live, communities are able to you know, notice how 0:25:17.920 --> 0:25:20.199 to you know, who notice the problem and figure out 0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:22.240 who used to handle it, you know, whether it be 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:26.600 um small rewards, people who volunteer to you know, deal 0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:33.160 with trash um or you know, just there's people who 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:37.000 enjoy doing that as well, you know, um and the 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:43.560 same goes for other undesirable jobs or you know, people 0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:45.400 have decided to go on like a routa and basis 0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:47.879 and the reality is, you know, we don't have to 0:25:47.920 --> 0:25:54.119 like define our lives around a career, so you know, 0:25:54.160 --> 0:25:56.960 a person doesn't have to be entirely like a garbage collector. 0:25:57.720 --> 0:25:59.520 On top of that, you know, as we scale down 0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:02.320 the amount of all which we produce, that task would 0:26:02.320 --> 0:26:05.520 become you know, less and less necessary. Yes, so you 0:26:05.560 --> 0:26:08.880 know what waste infrastructure, people are able to take care 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:12.520 of that. You know, we can't externalize those sorts of issues. Um. 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:17.040 With food infrastructure, you know, we're able to like for example, 0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:19.959 in in the Title Hills region of what is now Kenya, 0:26:20.240 --> 0:26:23.280 you know, people were able to create these complex irrigation 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:26.840 systems that you know lasted hundreds of years before you know, 0:26:26.920 --> 0:26:30.960 colonial states moved in and ended these agricultural practices. You 0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:33.119