1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it could happen here, it being a podcast 2 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: hosted by myself, Christopher Wong and the minute Inimitable. Amenab 3 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah, and Andrew, Andrew High, you're 4 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: in charge, Thank you, thank I almost stuck that landing. 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: I was so not sucking it up. Are you guys? 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: Proud the way there being consistent and I consistent? I 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: mean that you sucked it up again, I'm proud. Yeah. 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have tried to say inimitable that was that 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: that was always going to be a disaster. Yeah, it was, 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: it was. It was. It was like one of those 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: gymnastics landings where it's like they landed and then both 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: your feet go in the ground and they jump and 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: they fall. Yeah, it's very like that when I yeah, 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: well all right, Andrew, what do you? What do you? 15 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: What do you? What do you? What do you? What 16 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: do you? What do you got for us today? Right? 17 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: So for this UM, this this episode's topic. UM. The 18 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: story begins with Reddit. Unfortunately that's not a great sign. 19 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: Well Reddit and Twitter? Yeah, the the two horsemen UM 20 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: and the discourse that occurred on those sites. Uh while 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: ago UM particularly related to like infrastructure and infrastructure and 22 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: the anarchic right. I mean, we all know to be 23 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: a sick. Principles society UM related to autonomy allow people 24 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: to define themselves and organize themselves on their own terms. 25 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: UM horizontalism. You know, people able to organize so that 26 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: no one dominates anyone else and no one exercises power. 27 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: UM move others. Mutual aid so people able to help 28 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: one another voluntarily, their bonds of solidarity and networks of 29 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: generosity that keep the social fabric together. You know. Free 30 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: association allows people to cooperate with who they want to 31 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: and how they see fit. And also conversely, you know, 32 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: refuse and disassociate. We need to be Yeah, that's a 33 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: key one that people don't emphasize it. Yeah, the free 34 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: disassociation definitely not be associated with certain people. Yeah, I mean, 35 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: because you can't freely associate. If you don't have the 36 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: option to freely disassociate, it is like running into a 37 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: cage and then you can't exit. Everyone should be able 38 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:42,399 Speaker 1: to move freely as well. Emphasize which is I think 39 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: one of the things that radicalized me most was UM 40 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: the existence of borders because to me, at least, like 41 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 1: when you're born. You know, you have this spawn point, 42 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: and it seems absurd to me that just spawn point 43 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: should have so much control over you know, the outcome 44 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: of your life. You know, what rights and stuff you enjoy, 45 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: and where you can and can't go freely because none 46 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: of us have a choice in that matter. You know, 47 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: we can't exactly choose our parents, or choose or you know, 48 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: neighborhood or where we grew up whatever. And of course 49 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: borders of the national kind and the only ones I 50 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: guess suppose you know, um, you also oppose borders related 51 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: to gender and race and citizenship, and well that's relates 52 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: to borders. But yeah, and so how anarchists proposed we 53 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: get to this society is first and foremost the people 54 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: liberating themselves, the concept of self liberation. So people, and 55 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: not even speaking just in terms of workers, you know, 56 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: speaking in terms of gender and sexual minorities, speaking to 57 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: terms of racial groups, um, speaking in terms of disabled people. 58 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: You know, they must at the forefront of their own libration. 59 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: Freedom cannot be given, it has to be taken. And 60 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: so through direct action, which is when we directly act 61 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: without the middle channels of authorities representatives, we make those 62 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: changes for ourselves and through other methods we pursue the 63 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: world that we wish to live in, which is the 64 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: whole prefigurative process of building a new in the shell 65 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: of the old. And so I think part of the 66 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: issue when it comes to discussions of anarchism and infrastructure 67 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: and supply lines and all these different things is that, Um, 68 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: I think people have this misconception, this this real strange 69 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: idea of what an archist revolution looks like. UM, where 70 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, we flip a switch just overnight and boom, 71 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: anarchist society. We have nothing in place, we have no 72 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: organization or systems or networks in places, just boom, staff 73 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: of fingers and all of a sudden we are all 74 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: living under anarchy. But in reality, um, you know, as 75 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: Kirpotkin expressed, there's no fallacy as harmful as the fallacy 76 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: the one day revolution. Obviously there's going to be a transition. UM. 77 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: In fact, a lot of people like to define anarchism 78 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: as an ongoing process moving further and further towards the 79 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: ideal of anarchy. Um. The whole idea is not whether 80 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: or not there will be a transitional society or kind 81 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: of transition that will be and so in this period 82 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: of transition is when we would be engaging in the 83 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: different forms of social experimentation to UM manifest you know, 84 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: anarchist principles in every facet of life. And of course 85 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: this is a process will involves engaging with local conditions 86 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: and um local people and allowing those communities, those individuals 87 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: to get to go in for themselves. What structures and 88 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: systems are put in place. Part of the struggle is 89 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: going to involve mirroring the society that we wish to create. 90 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: So for our final goal is you know, communistic and 91 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: artistic society, that our methods must be as communistic as 92 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: an artistic as possible. Basic you know, duality of means 93 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: and ends. So when we speak of supply lines, when 94 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: we speak of infrastructure, the reality is that existing infrastructure 95 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: is not going to disappay overnight. Were are starting from 96 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: complete scratch. This isn't a new you know, minecraft world 97 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: that we have to go and punch some trees and 98 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: start society all over again. Revolution is destructive, but it's 99 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: also constructive and transformative. So I mean, we're not going 100 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: to get rid of all experts and all expertise. We're 101 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: not going to be floundering difficult, how to make penicill in. 102 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: You know, people in all fields and all industries and 103 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: all layers and all um you know backgrounds are going 104 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: to be involved in the process, you know, adapting their 105 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: work places, adapting the industries towards sustainable and anarchic ends. 106 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: And it's a process that's going on now and will 107 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: continue because if you know, we look at at revolution 108 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: as a combination of I think Eric ollen Right he 109 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: had in his book Envisioning Real Real Utopias three basic 110 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: concepts of transformation. He had ruptural transformation, interstitial transformation, and 111 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: symbiotic transformation. And so interstitial revolution is basically the idea 112 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: um it's basically a mirror of you know, prefigurative politics 113 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: as a theoretical means of societal transformation through progressively and 114 00:07:52,840 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: strategically enlarging spaces of social empowerment. And ruptural transformation is 115 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: of course, I guess, the dichotomy between the insurrectionists and 116 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: everybody else, you know, where you have these moments of 117 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:16,239 Speaker 1: social outposts, these moments of rupture where social forms and 118 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: social developments you know, undertaken and we sort of figure 119 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: out how we are, or rather we directly fight back 120 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: against you know, the systems are in place. I think 121 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: rupture is one of the more exciting forms. It's the 122 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: kind of form revolution of people tend to think of 123 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,599 Speaker 1: when they think of the term revolution, this idea of 124 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: you know, all these this is this mass of people, 125 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: this crowd of people storming the bastill or whatever. Um. 126 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: But the real work of transformission is the stuff that 127 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: because you know, prior to and post those wounds of rupture. Well, 128 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: I I one of the terms I tend to like 129 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: that I've been thinking and reading about a lot is 130 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: is shatter zones. And these are this is like the 131 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: post rupture, right, these are the areas where state power 132 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: kind of collapses, or at least pieces of state power collapse. 133 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: And it's you know, the the shatter zones where kind 134 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: of you you see the state retreat in the wake 135 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: of a rupture, are where very terrible things tend to happen. 136 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: But there are also these zones of possibility. You know. 137 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: It's the places it's the kind of place where you 138 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: you can get an ethnic cleansing, and it's the kind 139 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: of place where you can get um rojava, you know, 140 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: like it's it's there they're these kind of zones of 141 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: possibility in the wake of of rupture. And I think 142 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: that's you know, a lot of the a lot of 143 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: the revolutionary kind of um imagery focuses on on the rupture, 144 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: but the future is decided in the shatter zones, you know. Yeah. 145 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: And I think what people miss as well is the 146 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: stuff that builds up to those you know, shatter zoons, 147 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: which is that their organizations, their affinity groups, their networks 148 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: and structures in place that are able to support those 149 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: zoons that are able to you know, when those ruptures ore, 150 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: could support the people taking part in those fights and 151 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: expand you know, those zoons of possibilities. Yeah, I mean, 152 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: this is the kind of thing where like, if you're 153 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: looking at what what causes the difference between you know, 154 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: these disastrous, uh like disasters that happened kind of in 155 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: the wake of a rupture, horrible crimes against humanity, and 156 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: situations where something better gets built like it again, to 157 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: use the example of Rajava. The reason why that happened 158 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: there and why isis didn't win in that terrain is 159 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: that groups of activists had been organizing in a variety 160 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: of ways for years in that and so when the 161 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: state collapsed, there were armed groups, and those armed groups 162 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: were supported by farming cooperatives and groups of people who 163 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: had been organizing to provide supplies to each other and 164 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: um like community organizations like focused on social like development 165 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: and aid like there was. It's it's yeah, there's an 166 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: exists in place exactly exactly and that's that's what you know, 167 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: and you could catch ye yeah. And I think that's 168 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: also because there's another way this can go to where 169 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: it's like you get a lot of moments where you know, 170 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: like like May sixty eight in France looks like this 171 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: right where like like the like the prime minister at 172 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: the president, I forget what was at that time. That's 173 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: like you like literally like the country's leaders are flying 174 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: out of the country on helicopters because I think everything 175 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: is going to collapse and then it just sort of doesn't. 176 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: And I think one of one of the way as 177 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: you get you get this period that looks like rupture, 178 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: but then everything sort of closes back up in on 179 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: itself is if those networks aren't strong enough and you 180 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: don't have some kind of sufficient level of organization, like 181 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: there there isn't there isn't anything. It's like it's like 182 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: you have these moments where the state is discredited but 183 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: there's nothing to replace it, and then the and the 184 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: sort of void, the void isn't strong enough to just 185 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: sort of like have the state collapsed entirely. And so 186 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: what you guys this moment where it looks like everything 187 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: is going to change and then there's nothing happens. And 188 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: I think that's also a product of essentially the same thing. 189 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 1: It's just depending on the strength of the state, you 190 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: can get very different sort of outcomes from these moments 191 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: where sometimes it's able to restabilize itself, sometimes it isn't. Right, Yeah, 192 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: And I think we kind of saw that in a 193 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: way with protests where you had this massive, massive rupture 194 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: probably the largest one of the largest American history. Um 195 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: yet people in the streets and cities all over the country. 196 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: Um because the vast majority of them were just peaceful marches. 197 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: But you also did have some like serious moments of rupture, 198 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: like in Minneapolis and stuff. And I mean look at us, 199 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: you know, two years later, and while they are you know, 200 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: more community organizations, I think they're more people who are 201 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: a bit more conscious, with more whale who are you know, 202 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:37,239 Speaker 1: radicalized and expanded their knowledge. Through that rupture, things basically 203 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: went back to the way they were in a lot 204 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: of ways, and other ways, you know, police budgets were 205 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: just increased. I think there was a current with the analogy, 206 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: but I'll just go to the analogy of like a hydro, 207 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: where you know, the state, whenever it's attacked and stuff, 208 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: it's able to just restore itself, just able to recover 209 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: itself and able to like adapt to those sorts of attacks. 210 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: I remember reading in Tone of Everything where the David's 211 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: were talking about how the state they're using example, the 212 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: American state. They were saying, you know, the American state 213 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: of right is completely different in a lot of ways 214 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: from the American state of the two thous you know, 215 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: because the the state and statecraft is constantly evolving, constantly expanding, 216 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: constantly responding to you know, the conditions that they face. 217 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: We saw what happened in the twentieth century, you know, 218 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: the different movements that I could in that time, the 219 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: state was able to respond to those movements and adjust 220 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: itself accordingly. And so obviously when we have these ruptures, 221 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: we have these you know, moments of struggle and obviously 222 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: the times in between where we yuh pre figuring um 223 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: robust systems and alternative institutions that can support people those 224 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: womans of rupture um. Part of that isn't going to involve, 225 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: you know, defense, and the sue is not, oh, well, 226 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: how you defend revolution, because you want to defend revolution, 227 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: they don't know how to defend a revolution. But rather 228 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: parts of defending it is defending it from people's attempts 229 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: to seize power away from the masses, from the waking 230 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: class too, you know, cipher and that energy and use 231 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: it for the ends of smaller group, smaller class of 232 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, whether it be parties or whatever the case 233 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: may be. Yeah, there's something there. I think you're going 234 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: back to, like thinking about borders and freedom of movement, 235 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: because if you look at like both the uss are 236 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: and China do this very quickly, which is that okay, 237 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: so you you you have the communist revolution, okay, and 238 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: theoretically class and power and then like the first thing 239 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: they do is set up in turnal border controls and 240 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,479 Speaker 1: these like like I mean in China, they they're technically 241 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: like the the prohibition on movement is like technically over, 242 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: but the like the the household registration system still exists, 243 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: and it still determines whether you where you can get 244 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: benefits and how you get benefits, and whether you can 245 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: live in a city, and like what like how what's 246 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: the security you can access? Can you buy houses? Things 247 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: like that, like that kind of stuff. If if you're 248 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: not if if what you're doing is just putting a 249 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: group of people in power and not actually putting you know, 250 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: like if you want to talk about it in class terms, right, 251 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, either the actual working class governs itself, 252 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: like the class in the hiredy collectively makes decisions, or 253 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 1: you've just created to do like baruacrat class and if 254 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: you wind up with a new barracract classes, like yeah, 255 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: immediately look at what happens. It's like, oh, hey, a 256 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: bunch of people have now decided that like you can't 257 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: leave your home province because you don't have the right 258 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: registration and it's right, Okay, It's like that kind of 259 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: reminds me what you were saying about, you know, if 260 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: all the working classes was meant with the state. Reminds 261 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: you of the video is watching last night actually from 262 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: this YouTuber anarch Daniel Barrian UM. And he was talking 263 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: about I believe how the state is necessarily um exclusive. 264 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: If everybody holds power, then the state necessarily um must 265 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: be wiped out. Must he wipe to it? If not, 266 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: it's going to try to reclaim it's monopoly on power, 267 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: it's monopoly on violence. UM. It cannot exist without people 268 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: under it, you know. And so as you know, we 269 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: are engaging in this as we are, you know, organizing strikes, 270 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:12,479 Speaker 1: creating networks of activists, creating assemblies, UM, creating you know, 271 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: self finance schools and social centers and cooperatives and all 272 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: these different forms of infrastructure that can weather and exists 273 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: under capitalism, but serve as prefigurations of all potential beyond capitalisms. 274 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: And so I guess the pivot um back to the 275 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: topic I was speaking of in the beginning. With regard 276 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: to infrastructure. You know, all of history books and stuf 277 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: general history books tend to speak of the government, centralized 278 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: government states souf arising also the new to build and 279 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: maintain like these big infrastructure projects. They then to use 280 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: example of irrigation. It's taken for granted, you know, staken 281 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: as a given that bureaucracies and such were necessary for 282 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: organizing these large populations. And while you know, the Galter 283 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,719 Speaker 1: and principles may thrive in a small scale, they just 284 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: cannot scale up when populations get any bigger than like 285 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: a small band of people. But what we do know 286 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: is that complex rural irrigation systems and the Galter and 287 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: urban decision making systems have oc could in you know, 288 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: human history, that our answers were able to organize those 289 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: those institutions without the state, without a centralized body with 290 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: a with with with cosive, you know, authority. There's also 291 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: like this implicit assumption, you know, when people make these assolutions, 292 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: that societies must necessarily grow and endlessly grow, and that 293 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: we cannot choose to limit our scale in any way 294 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: to avoid centralization, to enhance eqalitarianism. You know, we can't 295 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: steal ourselves down to all manageable levels a d growth um. 296 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: And as you've see, that's just not true. You know, 297 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: we are capable of making those shifts. You know, large 298 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: scale projects like irrigation or or you know, supply lines 299 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: and stuff. They do require coordination, but coordination is not 300 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: synonymous with the state. Coordination is not synonymous with hierarchy. Yeah, 301 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: and that's something that's interest It's interesting to me the 302 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: way people, like how badly people think about that because 303 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: like even even even in terms of sort of like 304 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: mercantile is trade right, like that kind of like long 305 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: range coordination, long range like moving goods across the world 306 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: has like it's but mostly not been states doing that. 307 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: Like it's you know, and you can talk about like okay, whatever, 308 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: it's like it's however you sort of want to think 309 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: about the market mechanisms here, but like, yeah, like people 310 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: have been people. People have been moving stuff from one 311 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: side of the world to the other, like essentially without 312 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 1: the state having anything to do with it, for like 313 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: as long as there have been people exactly. I think 314 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that frustrates me most about 315 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: the discourse about like any kind of post capitalism is 316 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: this um this purposefully. I think in a lot of 317 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: cases like malignant ly um inaccurate um attitude that like 318 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: the idea of people like exchanging goods and services is 319 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: fundamentally capitalist. That the idea of people like organizing that 320 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: the that like a factory right is something that has 321 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: to be has to be either organized under capitalist models 322 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: or under state socialist models as exactly as if people 323 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: haven't done it in other ways. Right, this is not theoretical. 324 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: We're not like trying to pose it like well maybe 325 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: it could work this way. It's like, no motherfucker's have 326 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: done this. Yeah, we have practical examples even on the capitalism. Yeah, 327 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: stuff like the mon Dragon Corporation and whatnot, Like it's 328 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: not um, it's like it's this is not like theoretical 329 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: stuff that we're talking about. I was thinking more long 330 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: lines of what happened in Argentina. Yeah. Yeah, you don't 331 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: even something going with food of the back as you know, 332 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: like the CNT which getting into yeah a little bit. Yeah, yeah, 333 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: like that's something. Well, I mean I think I think 334 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: part of what's happening there is it's like, yeah, like 335 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: people have run factories in other ways, and every single 336 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: time they try to do it, every other political faction 337 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: on Earth sets out, set aside all the political differences 338 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: and goes and tries to kill them, and it's like 339 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: this is not that's that's true. That's true. I'm also 340 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: reminded of the fact that you know parts of what happened, 341 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: and how do the assue that you know it could 342 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: in Argentina and as I could elsewhere. Um is this 343 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: concept that I think my call Albert Um talks about 344 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: a lot, this idea how they coordinator class and the 345 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: issues that arise out of that sort of coordinates a class. 346 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: And so I think part of that sort of organization 347 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: is going to involve confronting that, you know, we tend 348 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: to think of it in terms of, you know, the 349 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: capitalist ownership and getting rid of the capitalists, but there's 350 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: you know, a lot more play than than just just 351 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: the capitalist kind of the firm is the firm? I 352 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: think it's also like this sort of assumption that people 353 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: aren't capable of like taking any kind of you know. 354 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: I think there's this kind of way, the submistion that 355 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: people aren't capable of taking initiative that people aren't capable 356 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: of of, you know, um, seeing the needs around them 357 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: and organizing to fulfill them. So when people end up, 358 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: you know, trying to do these sculches and stuff with 359 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: anarchists like, oh, well, how are you going to do 360 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: with garbage? It's like people don't like arbage around them, 361 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, which is why we have a sanitation system, 362 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: which is why we have garbage disposal systems in place. 363 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: But you know, under this system, because everything is all 364 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: the costs of you know, our consumption and stuff are 365 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: externalized and hidden. People don't have to think about the 366 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: ways that you know, our actions are affecting our local 367 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: um you know ecosystem. You know, we see that we 368 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: pay other countries to or at least one like I say, 369 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: a week, um, the US, the USPS, other countries. I mean, 370 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 1: we have a problem and in turn out as well, 371 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: where all of our waste um just gets dumped like 372 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: right next to them out groove And there's a community 373 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: right opposite the highway where the dump is located. And 374 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: you know they booon garbage day and it's like the 375 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: boont garbage is like a constant smell of boont coarbage 376 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: around that community. And it's of course the most improverished 377 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: community in the country and US. It's a whole thing. Um. 378 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 1: But I digress. You know, when we aren't able to 379 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: just you know, externalize the costs of you know, how 380 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: we live, communities are able to you know, notice how 381 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: to you know, who notice the problem and figure out 382 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: who used to handle it, you know, whether it be 383 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: um small rewards, people who volunteer to you know, deal 384 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: with trash um or you know, just there's people who 385 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: enjoy doing that as well, you know, um and the 386 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: same goes for other undesirable jobs or you know, people 387 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: have decided to go on like a routa and basis 388 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: and the reality is, you know, we don't have to 389 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: like define our lives around a career, so you know, 390 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: a person doesn't have to be entirely like a garbage collector. 391 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: On top of that, you know, as we scale down 392 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: the amount of all which we produce, that task would 393 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: become you know, less and less necessary. Yes, so you 394 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: know what waste infrastructure, people are able to take care 395 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: of that. You know, we can't externalize those sorts of issues. Um. 396 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: With food infrastructure, you know, we're able to like for example, 397 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,959 Speaker 1: in in the Title Hills region of what is now Kenya, 398 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: you know, people were able to create these complex irrigation 399 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: systems that you know lasted hundreds of years before you know, 400 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: colonial states moved in and ended these agricultural practices. You 401 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: know the back then, you know, the households would share 402 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: the day to day mains and the uns of that 403 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: irrigation infrastructure. You know, everyone would take care of the 404 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: part of the infrastructure that was closest where they lived. 405 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: And you know, as it was commons, people enjoyed it 406 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: in common people maintained it in common people benefited in common. 407 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: People would also come together UM periodically for like major repairs, 408 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: and it was a form of collective, socially motivated rule 409 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: work that we see in many other you know, essentialized societies. 410 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: You know often he had UM conversations whether I often 411 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: read about you know, these different societies. And even on 412 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: the capitalism you have communities that you know, when someone 413 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: needs somewhere to live, the whole community gets together and 414 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: helps them build their house. And when someone else needs 415 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: somewhere to live, you know, everyone gets together and builds 416 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: their houps and so on and so forth. You know, 417 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: people already doing this in parts of the world, These 418 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: systems already in place in parts of the world, these 419 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: sort of reciprocal networks of of of support UM. And 420 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean whether you're talking transportation or power, or communications, 421 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: or housing or food or healthcare, there's a precedent set. 422 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: You know, these precedents may have certain flaws, but we 423 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: could study them, we can learn from them, and we 424 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: could establish something better you know, for example, like as 425 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier in Anarchist Spain Right and Felt. During 426 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: the Spanish Civil War, Barcelona's Medical Syndicate, which is organized 427 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: largely by anarchists, managed eighteen hospitals, six of which they 428 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: had created, seventeen sanatoriums, twenty two clinics, six psychiatric established ones, 429 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: three nurseries, and one motility hospital. Whenever they had a request, 430 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: the syndicate would send doctors to places in need, because 431 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: medicine was considered to be in suits of the community, 432 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: not the other way around. You know. Funds of these 433 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: clinics would come from the contributions of like local municipalities, 434 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: and this syndicate UM had a health workers union that 435 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: included eight thousand unhealth workers during operated threety six health 436 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: centers and distributed through Catalonia and Pride Health get to 437 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: everyone in the region. And these sndicates would send delicates 438 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, UM to Barcelona and they would be able 439 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: to deal with common problems and implement common plans. But 440 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: every department was both autonomous but also not isolated, so 441 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: they supported one another where needs to be and under 442 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: the CNT you know, we also see like lands being 443 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: taken by peasants syndicates um who would organize properties and 444 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: allow equal community to take care of you know, their 445 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: land and their animals and you know, their crops as 446 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: needs be. Yeah, there was something I've been the more 447 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: I've read about it, the more impressed I've been with 448 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: the way that I guess you would call it, like 449 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: the like the anarchists in Spain liked basically did a 450 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: universal healthcare program in one year in the middle of 451 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: a civil war, and like you know, and like I 452 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: think everything about it that that was important is it. 453 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: Like they were able to like they had this whole 454 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: program that was about like sending like sending doctoration to 455 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: the countryside to get to like into committees that have 456 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: never actually had regular access to medical care before. And 457 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: they're able to do this extremely quickly and had a 458 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: system the benefits of which are like enormously better than 459 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: like basically like if you can go find I'm forgetting 460 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: the exactly, but like you can go find like their 461 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: their their policy for like how much time off you 462 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: can get for like an injury and stuff, and it's like, yeah, 463 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: you can take you can get like six months eight 464 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: months off at like full pay. Like people like your 465 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: family will be provided for. Like they had all of 466 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: this just like incredible, like healthcare infstructure they they're able 467 00:30:54,600 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: to set up like really really fast. Yeah, because they 468 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: also had you know, these regional federations of different collectives 469 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: and they were able to basically you know, distributes surplus 470 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: goods and distribute as you said, health care, and you know, 471 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: basically pool infrastructure so that everybody are the pool resources 472 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: so that everybody was able to benefit. You know, they 473 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: often pooled resources for things where you know areas well 474 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: unevenly developed, you know, so that you know, more um 475 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: developed regions able to help other regions improve their infrastructure, 476 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: you know, build roads and canals and hospitals as this. 477 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: When I read about, you know, what happened in Catlonia, 478 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: I'm not saying they were perfect. They definitely had a 479 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: lot of issues. When I read what what happened there, 480 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: you know, in the midst of a civil war, um, 481 00:31:54,720 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: the possibilities that room present and what could have potentially 482 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: happened further along, um, you know, it's it's it's very inspiring. Yeah, 483 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: And I think it goes back to the sort of 484 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: the the point we've been we've been talking about which 485 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: is that like the capacity to provide care for people 486 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: and the capacity to do stuff like this exists in 487 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: our society, right, It's not something that has to be 488 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: just sort of just like completely manufactured from the ground up. 489 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: It's just that the capacity is not being used to 490 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: actually like give to benefits of people what they need. 491 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: Is like, well, okay, it's not a it's it's it's 492 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: it's less like a process of just completely reconstructing the 493 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: society and more a process of like, hey, why don't 494 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: we use the resources we already have to do the 495 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: things that are like actually useful. And people for some 496 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: reason think that like is being true if you don't 497 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: have a state, and it's no like the state disappearing 498 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: to every single doctor suddenly vanishes from the face of 499 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: the earth. Like, yeah, it doesn't mean every single sanitation 500 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: we certainly disappears, every single construction we because certainly disappears 501 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: every single like every everything teachers and disappears every Yeah. Yeah, 502 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: like I said, we're not started from like a new 503 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: minecraft food. You know, you're not to go and kill 504 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: the end of dragon and all that. But um, I 505 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: mean I guess that's a that's a good place to 506 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: wrap up, Basically, we have these possibilities, we always have, 507 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: UM and in a lot of ways, the state and 508 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, capitalism and all these other um manifestations of 509 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:49,239 Speaker 1: hierarchy holding us back. They're preventing us from reaching all 510 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: full creative the full unleashing of our creative potential as people. Yeah, 511 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: we should do that instead of this. Yeah, we should 512 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: do this instead of that, you know, rather we should 513 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: do that instead of this. Yeah. Well, Andrew, thank you 514 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: so much. Where can where can people follow you? I 515 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: believe I believe you just put out a new a 516 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: new video this week. If I'm remembering correctly, Yes, I 517 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: don't know if they will hear this episode before my 518 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: next video is out. Um but um. You can find 519 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: me on YouTube dot com slash andrewis um and you 520 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at under school saying true. Awesome. Alright, 521 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: well go start a hospital. Look, it could happen years 522 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,919 Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool 523 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 524 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart radio app, 525 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 526 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: find sources for it could Happen here update in month. 527 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 1: Lee at cool Zone media dot com slash sources, thanks 528 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: for listening.