WEBVTT - Has Modern Golf Passed Kapalua By? Plus, Golf Architecture with Jaeger Kovich 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.920 And when I find my ball in a brid. 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:11.840 Egg Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday fridagg bride egg Lie, 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:13.640 I'm about ready to run off of the hump. 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:40.919 Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast. 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.360 I am your host, Andy Johnson, and I'm I'm excited 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:48.360 about this episode. We are back. As a reminder from 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.319 last week, this cadence will be every Wednesday this year, 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.400 so every Wednesday morning you can expect a a new 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.800 episode of this podcast. I'm excited for a couple of reasons. 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:06.959 We got TGL debut tonight as of this recording Tuesday night, 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:10.200 so we will see a new form of golf. We 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.880 did a podcast last week about what we were kind 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.920 of thinking about TGL. I'm really excited to see it 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.840 rolled out. I think it's a really big opportunity for golf. 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:24.880 I am interested to see how it all works. I 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.840 think they're you know, I think we all should exercise 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.399 a little bit of patience because this is a brand 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.640 new thing. They are going to definitely figure stuff out 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:38.920 in the first season, and ideally it is successful enough 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:42.160 to get a five year window to really grow and flourish, 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:49.400 because primetime exposure for golf on ESPN would be a 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:54.480 wonderful thing for the greater golf community to have. And 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.880 so I'm really excited to watch that tonight. But this 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:03.760 podcast is going to focus in on a couple of topics. 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:07.080 It's going to focus in on Cappalua and the PGA 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:13.200 Tour's massacre of scoring on Capealua. I bring in Joseph 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.480 Lamanna from Friday Golf to talk about it. He did 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:21.600 some interesting numbers analysis to kind of showcase really what's 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:26.480 happened to this venue over the years. And then later 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.399 I am joined to talk golf architecture with a friend 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:34.040 of the program, golf architect Yeger Kovich. Jeger is the 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:38.880 owner of Proper Golf, that is his architecture firm. After 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.320 working with Tom Doak and Gil Hants, Jaeger is now 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.480 fully out on his own with his own firm. He 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.000 does a ton of work in the Northeast. He's been 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:52.560 a former podcast guest, so you could search in Spotify 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.520 or iTunes wherever you could find earlier episodes that discussed 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.000 his story how he got into golf architecture. But this podcast, 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:02.000 we're just going to talk about some of the hot 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:05.400 topics in golf. So those are the two interviews and 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.639 we are excited to have this thing rolling. So one 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:15.000 other bit of housekeeping with the TGL in mind, we 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:19.239 did a design contest in CLUBTFE our membership. It was 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.120 really fun. We put we did a design contest and 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:26.120 we went through all of the designed holes. We had 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:31.560 help from John who built all the holes in PGA 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.760 Tour two K so it was a really fun thing. 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.000 We actually put that video up on our public YouTube page. 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:40.920 That's an example of one of the hangouts we do 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.920 every month in CLUBTFE. So if you liked that, if 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:50.240 you enjoyed that, then consider joining our membership and you 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.880 can join at the Frida egg dot com slash membership. Again, 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:58.000 that video is free for everybody on our public YouTube page, 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.160 so go check that out there. There were a lot 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.480 of really fun designs. Without further ado, let's get to 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:07.680 Joseph Lamanna and let's talk about Cappalua and the state 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:17.560 of modern professional golf. All right, Joseph, we are through 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:22.080 the opening drive and we are met right out of 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:26.799 the gates this year was scoring discussion, a popular topic 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.520 every time it rolls around to Capealua, a par seventy 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.839 three golf course built in nineteen ninety one by Bill 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:37.680 Kre and Ben Crenshaw that has seen I would say, 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:42.320 an assault of scoring over over recent years. Two years 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:46.400 ago the scoring record was set at minus thirty four, 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.120 the all time scoring record on the PGA Tour two par. 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:54.000 This year it is broken by Hideki Massiyama, who gets 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.719 to thirty five under, and a lot of takes flying 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:06.160 around about Kapelu. There are strong rumors, if not you know, 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.600 assertations that the par will be changed from seventy three 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:14.400 to seventy two, which really does nothing. But Kapalua is 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:18.720 in the crosshairs of the golf community as as not 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:20.839 you know. I think a lot of people are questioning 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.600 is this a worthy test of the best players in 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.560 the world. And I figured this would be a fun 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.559 little topic to bat around as we welcome in twenty 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.120 twenty five on the PGA. 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:35.360 Tour, Andy, thank you for having me. I'm pumped for 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.960 this conversation. I think it's a great conversation that doesn't 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:42.839 necessarily do well like in a tweet, and there are 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.920 multiple angles to talk about here, so I don't know 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.240 where you want to start. I think there's at least 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.760 like two to three different angles of this that we 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.520 have to talk about, right, Like there's it's a resort course, 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.280 and when the wind doesn't blow on a resort course, 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.279 like this is what you're going to get there. Also 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.600 the equipment, like all of those things are are contributing. 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:05.760 So I'm eager to dive into this conversation. 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.440 I think maybe the place to start is you did 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:14.680 you you produced your antual golf course tears on Twitter? 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.240 You had Capelua very high in that. What do you 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.320 think Cappalua does well? 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:21.680 What? 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:25.760 What are the virtues I enjoy this golf course. I'm 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.320 just gonna throw the thing I really like about it. 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.000 You see pros hit a lot of shots that have 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:39.120 elevation and uneven lies, So two really distinct difficult factors 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:43.560 for hitting golf shots are uneven lies and elevation change 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.560 uphill downhill. It requires a lot of skill, especially when 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.640 you mix and win. But what in your mind is 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.960 are some of the things that Capelua does well and 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.520 in the modern game of testing, modern players I believe 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.320 it was like the fourth or fifth highest golf course 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.680 in your rankings. This is just PGA Tour courses, not 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:08.360 major championships, so just PGA Tour annual hosts. Yeah. 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:10.360 I had it on a tier titled something like Great 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.640 Test with Houston Memorial and some of those memorials in 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:16.720 the Houston golf Course, not Mierfield Village. 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:17.040 Which I've hire. 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.320 Last podcast, we talked about a couple of criteria of 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.640 good architecture for professional golfers, and two of the three 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.360 criteria I said are that it makes you hit different 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.200 types of shots, and it uses the ground interestingly right, 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:33.119 like you have to control the golf ball on the ground. 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.520 And I think one thing you've seen with trends in 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.280 professional golf is that as scoring has gone down, you 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.720 can call this the Tiger effect. There's been a narrowing 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.400 of golf courses over the past twenty five years that 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.080 has made the ground less and less of a factor. 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.240 Which I mean, it does raise the scoring average because 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.280 you're covering up fairway with rough like it often will 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.240 raise the scoring average, but it's diminishing shot value. And 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:04.160 I do think we've completely lost how much ground should 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.000 be a factor at the highest level of professional golf. 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:11.200 So when there's wind, Kapalua is dynamite and wind does 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.280 function as a natural rollback. Right, you don't hit the 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:16.720 ball as far. Get one shot into the wind and 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.080 one shot downwind, that's gonna net out to losing distance. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.400 So when it's windy, this golf course plays very well, 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:25.400 and I think that's an important part of the conversation. 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:27.800 You have to hit a lot of different types of 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.040 shots off uneven lies, as you're saying, a lot of 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.599 crossover with players who do well at Augusta and do 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.480 well at Cappealua because you're hitting those demanding iron shots 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:36.160 off of good. 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:41.240 Elevation change and uneven lies is a hallmark of Augusta National. 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.199 Can't fake it, yep. You got to be able to 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.079 strike your irons. So we wouldn't even be having this 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.000 conversation if the winds had been up but. 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.240 Or or we wouldn't be having this conversation if this 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:57.839 golf course was TPC Minneapolis or Blaine. But this is 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.120 one of I think one of the golf courses that 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.320 people look forward to the most on the PGA Tour calendar. 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:08.280 It's one of the I think most popular golf tournaments 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:10.480 that the Tour owns and operates. 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:14.000 Yes, but it is a good golf course to look 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.920 at within the state of professional golf in the golf 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.840 world as a whole, to understand when there's not wind, 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:25.079 there's zero teeth, and equipment has completely overrun the professional 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.640 game to the point that it's just shoot and score, 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.719 throw darts all day. There's another part of this that 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:32.760 I know you'll want to dig into, that the greens 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.240 have been softened at Kapalua and that has also contributed 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.120 to lower scoring. There's a lot of things happening in 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.000 one here, but I think it's a really good case 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.559 study for the direction professional golf has gone and some 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:45.720 of the challenges it faces. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.839 It also provides really interesting lens because this is a 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.959 modern golf course. This isn't like you know, it was 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:57.000 built in nineteen ninety one. It gives you a lens 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:01.160 of like shelf life on Tour, trend on Tour because 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:06.200 we get to it's really it's hosted high level golf, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.679 like it hasn't had gyrations of level of players. It's 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:13.760 always had the best, the best, like elite golfers there 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.920 year and year out over a sample size of massive 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.800 equipment change right the first year. You know, they started 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.880 hosting in the late nineties and it's run till now, 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.160 and it gives you a really interesting lens because the 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:34.080 golf course hasn't changed much until the green softening, which 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:36.800 I think we will get to but has led to 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:42.439 a flurry of low scores. But also in this time 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:47.040 that's that's been its host there is you've effectively gone 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:52.160 from wound balls and small heads to solid core golf balls. 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:56.240 Track man, Uh you know, I think, uh, you know, 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:01.640 four hundred and sixty cc heads and modern strategy, which 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:04.880 I think is another big part of this is the 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:10.160 mass adaptation of modern strategy. So if you if you 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:14.000 couple all those things together, it has led to a 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:18.240 perfect storm of this golf course. I still, I still 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.959 firmly believe it provides a unique test. But when you 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:25.680 see the scoring in the scoring average, I think there's 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.280 a max home a tweet. The year is twenty twenty 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:32.559 five and it sixty sevens are no longer good on 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.720 the PGA Tour. And the reality is this golf course, 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:38.839 if you wanted to put a real par to it 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.160 is a par sixty eight for these guys, you know, 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.439 that's that's the reality. But they are not going to 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.559 do that. They aren't going to say that eighteens a 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.040 par par five are par four. When was the last 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.280 time you didn't see a guy go for eighteen? You 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.439 know they have to miss the fair away, right, So 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:59.160 it's a part four you know in all actuality. But anyways, 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:04.320 the I think, like, let's talk about what you think. 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.960 You think you think the technology is the real big factor. 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:09.760 How has that changed? Capaloua. 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:14.880 I think all of them are significant factors, just to 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.400 be clear, right, like modern course management is a huge, 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.079 huge factor, and that you're trimming out a lot of 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.640 big numbers, like you just not seeing golfers make double 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.800 bogies or worse very often in the modern era. I've 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:29.800 made this point before, but I think the period of 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.480 twenty fifteen to twenty twenty five is just a rapid, 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:38.040 rapid evolution of strategy principles taking root in all sports. Right, 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.280 Like the NFL coaches who don't go for it on 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.040 fourth down anymore are dinosaurs and they've been rooted out 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.400 of the league in the same way professional golf. If 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.319 you were if you were refusing a lot of the 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:53.079 modern course management being too conservative off of t's being 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:55.480 too aggressive and pin seeking on your approach shots like 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.319 you're just underperforming and you're being washed off of the tour. 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.280 So and the margins are so narrow you can't stay 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:01.720 on tour. 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.800 No, you'll just be gone. So that is a big 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.240 part of it. But Andy, do you know so just 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:11.480 as an example, the par five fifth hole, five hundred yard, 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:12.840 this is. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.640 The hole that they believe there that is believed to 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.439 be changing to part four for next year, Like thirty 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.240 one hunder is going to make a difference, thirty five 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.520 to thirty one. What a big change. 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.560 I know people are kind of proponents of changing the parts. 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:29.920 I actually am not. I think it's obfuscating a real 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.080 issue and that we shouldn't will that. Actually we did. 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.000 We did a podcast years ago that there's a there's 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.240 a a formal study that was done. If you just 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.520 changed part down, the will score better. 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:43.840 I'm a little skeptical. I actually don't think that would 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:44.559 be true anymore. 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.360 Version it's all loss of version. 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.880 I don't think that would be true with the modern golfer. Actually, 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:53.760 I think that they would. They know you're I think 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.240 you're incorrect. I think I would love to see that. 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.640 I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't that it 0:13:58.679 --> 0:13:59.560 actually wouldn't change. 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.760 Here's here's why. If you ask any of these tour pros, 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.040 I guarantee they make more part putts than they make 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:07.400 birdie putts from the same range. 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.120 Honestly, I'm very I'm very skeptical of it. But sometimes 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.679 when you do your own do your own little study, Yeah, 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.480 sometimes find me birdie pus from eight feet versus par 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:21.520 puss from eight feet. I almost guarantee that tour pros 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.120 make more of them. Some of the problems though that 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:26.720 some often the difficulties a little harder on some of them. 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.440 But that all aside what I wanted to get to 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.000 the par five to fifth. Do you know what the 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:36.160 scoring average was for that whole on Saturday? And Saturday's 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.480 round no win five hundred yards. Guess what the scoring 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.760 average was on that hole four point one, three point 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.160 nine eight. I almost went under three point nine eight. 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.840 And of the fifty nine players in the field, I 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.800 think all but seven hit the green in two. I mean, 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.600 we're just talking about a completely different sport than when 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:58.640 this golf course was designed, and I know I sent 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.440 these numbers over to you, Andy, but just to give 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.240 people a little feel for how much scoring has changed 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.440 in the last twenty five years at Kapa Lua. So 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.240 I have data going back to two thousand and one. 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:10.720 It's it's important to call out that the winner in 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.800 two thousand and three was thirty one under par Ernie Els, 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:15.640 so that was already under par. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:17.520 That was when he had the provy. That was the 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.240 debut of the prov one acts, which he could just 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.400 rip knucklecuts with this is so that's like the chain, 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.920 that's the start of the big change. Like I played, 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:33.440 I recently played around golf with original prov one. I 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.960 was shocked at how hard it was. Like so like 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:39.520 one of the things like people are always like go 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:41.840 back and play belata. You can't go back and play 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:46.200 ballata because the liquid and the course have evaporated, so 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.800 the ball doesn't perform. But the prov one being a 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.040 solid corps ball, it played like two thousand and one. 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.360 It was shocking how hard, how much it spun, like 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.560 how much the wind affected it. It was so much 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.360 harder then golf with the current pro V one. But 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.400 this the first I would say, like everybody says the 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.080 prov one was a huge change. It was a huge change. 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.400 The pro V one X was the one that really 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:13.680 really changed. 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:17.040 The game, and it's important to be given context of 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.640 what equipment changes happened with it. So I'm glad you 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:21.880 called that out. In two thousand and three, the winner 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.320 was thirty one under Erniel, so thirty under is not 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.240 unheard of. I think it's important to not go, you know, 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:29.880 chicken little the sky is falling every time there's low scores. 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:34.320 It's happened before. But what you're looking for is like trends. Yes, 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:38.040 so you're looking for like you you know, what people 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.840 like to do is cherry pick like one stat like 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:47.440 a detractor who who often says that I straw man argument, 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.400 he would probably say, look thirty one under exactly this 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.760 is this happens out here. But what you need to 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.280 do is almost look at like a lot of a 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.480 lot of statisticians would say, like a five year regression line, right, 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:05.439 A rolling regression line is at least way right, at 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:07.879 least because you're only talking about in most years, like 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:09.960 thirty players in the field, so it's not a huge 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.359 sample size. But I think there are some important numbers 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.760 in here. So since two thousand and one, there have 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.720 been one hundred and eighty two rounds of sixty five 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.640 or lower at Kapelua, So that's eight under sixty five 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.439 or lower. One hundred and nine of those rounds are 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.760 in the last four years, so sixty percent of the 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.600 sixty fives are lower are in the last four years. 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.800 And those those represent twenty two percent of the total 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.640 rounds played at Cappelua over the last twenty five years. 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.800 So sixty percent of the sixty fives are lower over 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:44.359 twenty two percent of the rounds. It's a massive, massive number. 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.359 And to the people who say, well, it's all wind, 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:48.399 wind is a huge part of this, but there have 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.080 been plenty of years in the past where there wasn't 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.920 a ton of wind like this past weekend and you 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.080 didn't there scoring outbursts like that. 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.800 There's there's a handful of tournaments in the last few 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:01.200 year with a lot. 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.480 Of wind, twenty twenty, twenty twenty especially. 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.239 So I'd like to call out your stat comes at 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:16.400 twenty twenty. After the twenty nineteen tournament, the tournament organizers 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.640 had Bilcore and Ben Crenshaw come out and soften all 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:27.080 eighteen greens at Kapalua. That is another undeniable factor, and 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:32.159 this was PGA tour driven. The reason that they needed 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.639 these greens soften was to accommodate pin positions at a 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:41.879 at tournament speed. That is, that is the reason for 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:47.359 this green softening. And since that green softening all that 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.120 your stat coincides with the exact year that the green 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:52.720 softening debuted. 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.080 Except for twenty twenty, which was a really windy year 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.720 where there were no sixty fives or lower. So it's 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.880 not like a perfect but yes, they don't even run 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:04.879 the greens that quickly at Kappealua either. So it's just 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.440 mind boggling to me that the direction of professional golf 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:13.040 includes instructing golf courses that they're one defense, not their 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.680 only defense, because wind is a primary defense Atkapellua. But 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:17.960 the slope greens need to be softened. I mean, who 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:19.159 who is that servant? 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.600 Well, it's a crazy thing because you think about like 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:26.080 the courses that have endured the most, and I know, 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.879 like Augustina National has done lots of tweaks to their greens, 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.640 but what are what are their greens known for from 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.160 the most slope in the world. Think about like other 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:42.919 enduring test Shittakok terrifying greens, Oakmont terrifying greens, like tons 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.040 of slope in them, wing foot loss of slope in 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.240 the greens, like the greatest, the greatest courses for the 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:56.200 most part have severe greens. The Tour, I would you know, 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:58.440 if you were going to build a golf course for 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:03.040 just express for the PGA Tour. One of their biggest 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.359 things that they would they would push on with you. 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:11.119 And I've heard this from numerous architects, is is that 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:16.960 they would be very heavy handed with percentage slope in 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:21.800 pinnable areas insane. I believe the number is one point 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:27.040 five percent slope in a pinnable area. One point five 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:31.639 percent slope is a tiny amount. So I think like 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.000 one of the things if I think about as a 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:37.960 kid watching Kapalua, I mean, this is a tournament that's 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.800 like basically spanned my life as a golf fan, and 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:46.280 from watching it early on till now, I think the 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.320 last couple of years. This year was it's just like 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:52.399 the more you see it, the more alarming it is. 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:55.960 I Mean, these guys have like twenty five foot putts 0:20:56.040 --> 0:21:01.840 that are just right edge putts. And this was always 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:06.120 a golf course historically that you saw putts just rip. 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.040 You just saw these putts that broke, and you were 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.200 you were astonished. It was like, oh, this is a 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:14.760 six footer that you need to play two feet or 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:19.040 two cups outside right now, with the way they set 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.800 this golf course up. Maybe I haven't been out there, 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.199 so I don't know how exactly flat the greens are. 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.720 But with where they at least put the flags, you 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.560 rarely see anything any putts outside the hole, which is insane. 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:35.399 It's a it's a golf course on a mountain. 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:43.600 It's crazy. I mean, everything seems makeable, right, Like you 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:47.399 got golfers who aren't great putters, like Kadeki Matsuyama standing 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:51.119 over fifteen footers that he's expecting to make at Kapalua. 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.560 It's just crazy. The thing that's crazy is those fifteen 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:55.400 footers don't move. 0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:02.320 Yeah, right, And this is all happening a softening while 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:06.240 equipment's getting easier to hit right, like while the driver 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:09.320 head is becoming more forgiving wild course management is evolving, 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:12.480 like to be steering the other direction. Defies any kind 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:17.640 of logic that the wind here and it not being windy. 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:20.359 I just don't like that people can kind of use 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:24.119 that as an excuse to distract from what is also 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:27.040 actually happening in the with the rest of professional golf 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:29.080 and andy. Honestly, the course that I would compare this 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.240 to that should be near and dear to everybody's hearts 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:37.480 is Saint Andrew's, which has become completely defenseless and honestly 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:39.960 a bad test of I think, a pretty bad test 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:40.760 of professional golf. 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:41.720 Unless the wind blows. 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:45.680 There's no defense out there anymore, in in calm conditions 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:49.160 and it's just point and shoot, shoot twenty five thirty under. 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:51.040 I think if we had a Saint Andrews where there's 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:52.960 no wind and there wasn't a ton at the last one, 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:55.080 it would be alarming what golfers could do to it 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:55.960 in twenty twenty five. 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:58.680 Yeah, I mean, and think about what that golf course 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:03.399 has done to you know, like you the teas are 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:06.879 on other golf courses, right, like they've done everything. And 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:09.720 that's an example of a golf course with really interesting 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:13.560 greens like right, you know, and very penal bunkers. 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:16.120 But if there's no wind, it won't matter. 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:19.840 Mm hmm, yeah, I would agree with that. What uh, 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:24.240 what are so obviously explosion and scoring? Was there? 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:24.520 Like? 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:27.159 Was there a lead up to this? Is that, you 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:32.080 know the obvious explosion was in twenty twenty one is 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:36.560 when this scoring, you know, has really exploded. But was 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:40.720 there any signs of this brewing in the numbers of 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:44.000 under sixty five rounds leading into that? 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:47.560 I mean, you generally see I just picked a random 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:49.680 number of sixty five. I could run this for you know, 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:54.520 sixty eight and you'd see something similar. Generally speaking, you 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:57.480 don't see a ton of them really until twenty twenty two. 0:23:58.040 --> 0:24:02.280 But COVID in twenty twenty, I think, is when a 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:06.879 lot of these ideas took root across sports and across 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:10.280 all the courses on the PGA tour. So you're gonna 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:13.160 see just these massive explosions in scoring everywhere. 0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:15.240 Like I know I've done that. 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:17.600 I've banged the drum on fifty nine, Like you're gonna 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:21.000 see a bunch more fifty nines coming up. So you 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:24.040 can look at Cappelua, you can look at WHYLEI this week. 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:25.680 If there's not a lot of wind in while I 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:29.480 like at the Sony, we're gonna get some ridiculously low score. 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:32.159 So to me, the warnings are all over the place, 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:35.360 not necessarily with sixty fives or lower and the lead 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:37.480 up to the green softening at Cappelua, but just in 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:39.040 general in golf, I think you have to have your 0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:41.200 head stuck in the sand if you can't see that 0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:45.080 there's massive explosions in scoring when the wind doesn't blow. 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:48.600 Yeah, what uh? I mean, what would you do if 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:51.280 you're a Cappaloua. What what do you think? Where do 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:54.560 where does the golf of the PGA Tour go? What's 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:58.680 the logical thing to do here out? You know? I 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:02.040 think like we could talk about like the you know, 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:05.000 what's a realistic thing to do with the scoring? And 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:08.440 then I think like we're probably in the same boat 0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:11.119 that the logical thing to do is like look at this, 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:15.480 and this is just like marathonors that are running insane 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:19.639 run times, or swimmers that we're using a swimsuit that 0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:24.280 also broke all the world records and their sport said no, no, 0:25:24.600 --> 0:25:28.119 no more of this, you know. But like golf, a 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:31.560 tiny rollback that really is going to be inconsequential by 0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:35.479 the time it's done is coming in twenty twenty eight right, 0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:42.320 twenty nine, twenty thirty, twenty twenty eight. So inconsequential rollback 0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:45.680 that'll set them to basically what they are today will 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:48.119 happen in twenty twenty eight. But like, what are some 0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:52.320 smaller measures that the tour could do to maybe mitigate 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:57.119 just the I think there's a pr issue with this. 0:25:58.080 --> 0:26:00.280 Yeah, I mean Kapalua can't do this, but we clearly 0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:02.480 need to shrink the driver heads and every we've heard 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:04.760 from a million voices that that's what needs to happen. 0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:07.119 Dodo Molinari said it on the pod. Rory said it, 0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:10.000 Tiger said it, like it's just so in your face 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:12.879 and sensible that we got to do it, and that'll 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:16.320 introduce some more off center hits at Kapalua. People would 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:19.119 find more penalty areas, especially when the wind is blowing, 0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:20.680 and you'd see a little bit of an increase in 0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:23.760 score if you couldn't hit it anywhere on the driver face. 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:27.160 In terms of what you would change about the golf course, 0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:28.960 I mean, I'd love to see maybe some of the 0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:32.399 slopes reintroduced, but I wouldn't want to do much. I 0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:35.840 would not start narrowing things. I would not start covering 0:26:35.960 --> 0:26:39.000 up areas of the fairway with rough I think one 0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:41.399 tweak that they should make that I've always maintained is 0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:43.720 that the center line bunker on number five should be 0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:46.680 shifted a little to the right because going right of 0:26:46.760 --> 0:26:49.320 it is very It shortens the whole and you're not 0:26:49.400 --> 0:26:51.920 taking on a lot of risks. So I think that 0:26:52.000 --> 0:26:55.320 center line bunker is not very strategic, so I would 0:26:55.320 --> 0:26:56.119 probably tweak that. 0:26:56.200 --> 0:26:59.840 But outside that, that bunker infamously was deeper in it's 0:27:00.119 --> 0:27:04.800 original iteration, and tour officials got into the bunker and said, 0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:07.800 wait a second, this is uh, you can't get to 0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:09.719 the green from here in this bunker. 0:27:10.240 --> 0:27:10.680 Insane? 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:14.840 Then and then it was it was it was shallowed 0:27:15.040 --> 0:27:17.840 so that players could hit from the bunker to the green. 0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:20.240 Yeah. I do think that's a better hole if you 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:22.040 shift that a little to the right, and it encourages 0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:23.920 players to go left of it and leave a long 0:27:23.960 --> 0:27:26.560 approach in or take on a little bit more risk 0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:28.480 and go right of It's like, that's a small alteration 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:30.680 that I think would be a positive one. Other than that, 0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:33.600 I wouldn't want to go around changing too much of 0:27:33.640 --> 0:27:35.879 a golf course that was built very intelligently and that 0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:37.200 plays very well in the wind. 0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:41.639 First of you know, arguably the greatest you know, living 0:27:41.760 --> 0:27:46.440 architect's career first at Core Crunchhaw Design. Yeah, you know, 0:27:46.520 --> 0:27:50.040 I think Tom Doak and Bill and Benner at the 0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:53.200 top of the mountain and and it's like, you know, 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:55.560 like that's the tricky thing with this golf course is 0:27:55.720 --> 0:27:59.840 like you ideally want this to just be able to endure, 0:28:00.040 --> 0:28:02.240 but you know, the game's changed so much. 0:28:02.840 --> 0:28:05.040 Yeah. Only the other part I'll call out that I 0:28:05.119 --> 0:28:08.200 don't know the answer to is are we getting a 0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:12.040 little unlucky with how the absence of wind over the. 0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:14.920 Past four years? Softness too? It was so soft? 0:28:15.560 --> 0:28:19.920 Sure, but is it abnormally soft in a lack of wind? 0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:23.480 Or like, what should you expect on January fifth in 0:28:23.600 --> 0:28:26.840 that specific part of the country. Like, I don't know 0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:30.159 the answer to that. But even if you determined that 0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:32.320 the best date to have this is a month later, like, 0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:34.359 I don't think that works particularly well for the PGA 0:28:34.400 --> 0:28:36.479 tour schedule, So I'm not sure you'd take a lot 0:28:36.520 --> 0:28:38.280 of action there. But I do think in general, the 0:28:38.360 --> 0:28:40.840 lesson should be for professional golf that if you have 0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:43.400 a golf course where the only defense is wind, Like 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:46.600 you better be prioritizing putting that on the calendar at 0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:48.880 a time of year when there's reliable wind. So don't 0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:50.720 know if if we just got a little unlucky the 0:28:50.800 --> 0:28:54.000 last forty years, but if it's windy in twenty twenty six, 0:28:55.040 --> 0:28:58.080 legitimate wind, you're not gonna see thirty five under Like 0:28:58.200 --> 0:28:59.640 it'll have some teeth. 0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:02.040 If you removed all the par fives and made them 0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:05.360 part four, as the winning score would have been fifteen under, 0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:08.280 let's not do that. 0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:12.520 That's that's just a band aid. 0:29:12.840 --> 0:29:15.080 I just well, here's I have like a you know, 0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:18.000 I guess like one of my my my questions is 0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:21.720 like do par fives even exist anymore? 0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:28.120 Not really? I mean thirteen Augusta people complained because only 0:29:28.200 --> 0:29:29.960 like fifty percent of the guys could go four and 0:29:30.000 --> 0:29:31.080 two after they lengthened it. 0:29:32.080 --> 0:29:35.120 Mean, there's there's a handful, Like I think, like fourteen 0:29:35.160 --> 0:29:38.440 at Pebble is one. You know, it's a shot of 0:29:38.680 --> 0:29:41.560 that stands out. And the last ten years was Gary 0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:44.760 Woodland getting home in two and during the final round 0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:46.600 of the US Open, because it was such a rare 0:29:46.680 --> 0:29:48.640 feat to get home in two. That's what a par 0:29:48.800 --> 0:29:50.000 five is what. 0:29:50.000 --> 0:29:52.920 Does pebble have? What is what does pebble have? Cold 0:29:53.000 --> 0:29:57.920 air and wind that changes how far the golf ball flies. 0:29:58.120 --> 0:30:00.400 So yes, that's a huge part of it. There aren't 0:30:00.760 --> 0:30:03.520 give me a warm golf course where there's not a 0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:05.360 lot of wind that you you can think of a 0:30:05.440 --> 0:30:06.120 true part five. 0:30:07.760 --> 0:30:10.320 I think so. I think one of the things that's 0:30:10.400 --> 0:30:13.520 happened that's permeated with with the PGA Tour is that 0:30:13.720 --> 0:30:19.520 they they've looked at other sports leagues and they see 0:30:19.880 --> 0:30:24.080 the that scoring is good for business. The NFL, the 0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:27.840 NBA dumb. But what they what they and the way 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:32.480 they've gone about making scoring good for businesses equipment, So 0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:38.320 giving players better equipment, let's just that, you know, there's 0:30:38.480 --> 0:30:41.880 there's obviously been like receiver gloves in football that people 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:44.840 will point to that have made catching a football easier, 0:30:46.400 --> 0:30:49.200 you know, but like the general idea of like equipment 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:54.360 making it easier is is that's not going to happen 0:30:54.440 --> 0:30:57.320 in any other sport. The other way that they've done 0:30:57.400 --> 0:31:00.560 this is with week to week, week in, week out, 0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:07.040 predictable conditions and and and course setup and course golf 0:31:07.080 --> 0:31:12.560 course architecture, like dumbing down stuff and what they're doing. Then, Like, 0:31:12.720 --> 0:31:16.680 I don't think anybody would find the NFL product more 0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:22.000 more interesting if they said, hey, guys, we know you 0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:26.320 like scoring. We know you love when your fantasy football 0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:30.760 players go off. So this year, so the tour is 0:31:30.960 --> 0:31:36.160 neutering golf courses in design with their weekend week out 0:31:36.240 --> 0:31:41.520 setups and decisions around venues and what they need to have. 0:31:42.880 --> 0:31:45.440 I think that the best comp would be if the 0:31:45.600 --> 0:31:49.920 NFL said, we want to produce higher scoring games. Defense, 0:31:50.960 --> 0:31:54.840 you have to play a set coverage. You're only allowed 0:31:54.840 --> 0:31:58.360 to play cover two, and we're going to take one 0:31:58.400 --> 0:32:01.880 player off the field, so you get players. The offense 0:32:01.920 --> 0:32:05.440 gets eleven players because the quarterback is man on man. 0:32:05.760 --> 0:32:09.720 You know, the quarterback doesn't count, and they set up 0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:12.840 the game that way. That's what it feels like the 0:32:12.920 --> 0:32:15.600 Tour does from a week in week out. What they 0:32:15.640 --> 0:32:20.240 don't seem to understand is that the interest the friction 0:32:21.760 --> 0:32:25.080 in other sports is the defense. The fact that the 0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:29.480 defense can present unique challenges, the fact that the defense 0:32:29.600 --> 0:32:33.120 can adapt, the fact that the defense can game plan. 0:32:33.920 --> 0:32:37.600 The PGA Tour setup crew should be acting like a 0:32:37.720 --> 0:32:40.920 defensive coordinator in football. They should be looking at the 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:44.360 players looking at the field, looking at what happened the 0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:48.960 year before, and devising a unique way to set up 0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:53.160 the golf course to produce, to try to thwart the 0:32:53.320 --> 0:32:56.680 way that the golfers have game planned to take down 0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:59.960 a golf course. And to me, this is the issue 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:02.440 with the tours. They don't understand that the key to 0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:06.880 the sport is the friction, because why everybody loves sports 0:33:07.720 --> 0:33:11.800 is that friction, the dynamics of watching somebody do something 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:15.400 that you think is impossible. And the issue the thing 0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:19.960 that golf is the hallway that the PGA Tour is 0:33:20.080 --> 0:33:23.400 walking golf down is that this is not hard. These 0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:26.320 guys are so good. This is just you know, a 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:30.720 shooting gallery. The issue is they are walking themselves into 0:33:30.920 --> 0:33:35.520 bowl closer to bowling and darts and further away from 0:33:35.640 --> 0:33:40.960 sports like football, baseball, basketball, hockey, you know sports where 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:44.200 there is a real dynamic, a back and forth between 0:33:44.640 --> 0:33:47.520 defense which is the golf course in the setup in golf, 0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:50.560 and offense, which is the players. 0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:54.080 I'm really glad you went here, Andy One. I think 0:33:54.120 --> 0:33:55.800 they would argue that they do that, and that's what 0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:58.040 they did at TBC River Highlands, where they looked at 0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:00.640 the data and decided to cover up certain parts of 0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:03.640 the fairway with rough and I would push back very 0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:06.400 hard on that that they have a fundamental misunderstanding of 0:34:06.480 --> 0:34:09.920 what tests professional golfers and that removing options and just 0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:14.399 making them play into one reducing the surface area that's 0:34:14.440 --> 0:34:17.879 playable to short grass, is not actually creating a better test. 0:34:18.120 --> 0:34:21.080 The other point that I feel like I have to 0:34:21.200 --> 0:34:23.360 make is that I want to throw the challenge flag 0:34:23.719 --> 0:34:26.640 on this notion that sports fans like more scoring. 0:34:26.760 --> 0:34:27.279 I think it's a. 0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:31.360 Misguided, stupid idea. And if you were to survey somebody 0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:34.360 and say, hey, would you prefer more scoring or less scoring, 0:34:34.480 --> 0:34:37.000 They're probably going to vote and say more scoring. But 0:34:37.120 --> 0:34:39.880 if the way you got to more scoring was with 0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:43.000 less defense, like you are saying, they wouldn't want that. 0:34:43.239 --> 0:34:48.200 It's just that these reductionist arguments argue that they want 0:34:48.280 --> 0:34:50.360 more scoring, and I think you are seeing now in 0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:55.960 the NBA a sort of backlash and an outcry from 0:34:56.080 --> 0:35:00.880 fans that the homogenized high scoring stop that they're playing 0:35:01.000 --> 0:35:03.680 right now in the NBA is not interesting. And I 0:35:03.760 --> 0:35:06.960 think it's a very good analogy for what's happening in 0:35:07.040 --> 0:35:11.400 professional golf, and a good point that, hey, you know what, 0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:14.360 scoring doesn't always result in more fan interest. If everyone's 0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:17.960 playing the same style and everyone's shooting threes and has 0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:21.000 these rangy perimeter defenders and we're all building our personnel 0:35:21.080 --> 0:35:22.759 the same way, and all the teams start to play 0:35:22.800 --> 0:35:25.279 the same style. Just like in golf, how you're seeing 0:35:25.320 --> 0:35:27.719 a lot of stock fades with huge driver heads and 0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.800 wedges to twelve feet. People don't really want that. 0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:38.200 People want tension, and that is the key to compelling sports. 0:35:38.600 --> 0:35:43.840 That's the dynamism. Yes, you you know, like that feeling 0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:47.440 that anything can happen. And the more that pro golf 0:35:47.560 --> 0:35:53.800 becomes driver wedge, the less inherent tension there is because 0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:58.600 the outcomes of a wedge from whether it's fairway or rough, 0:35:58.840 --> 0:36:01.880 the number of outcomes that can happen from a wedge 0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:06.920 is so small. It is like twenty five feet or 0:36:07.040 --> 0:36:09.960 two feet, you know, like that's kind of the range. 0:36:10.600 --> 0:36:13.480 It's the ball either, yeah, the ball doesn't roll. 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:15.440 Soles don't matter nearly as much. 0:36:16.320 --> 0:36:19.080 I mean, I if I was gonna like think about 0:36:21.360 --> 0:36:23.279 and it's hard, it's hard with set up a grand 0:36:23.360 --> 0:36:26.280 stands and everything, But if I was if the PGA 0:36:26.400 --> 0:36:30.240 Tour said, hey, you can. You can have one tournament 0:36:30.280 --> 0:36:33.839 where you set up everything. This is this would never happen, 0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:40.120 right ever, you can set up everything. You can be 0:36:40.160 --> 0:36:45.360 in charge with the venue. I would create like a 0:36:45.600 --> 0:36:49.560 lot of variable grass heights all over the place, like 0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:55.960 really like almost random, but thought out, where like certain 0:36:56.000 --> 0:36:59.799 places roughs are shorter, certain places roughs are longer. There's 0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:02.880 in between roughs like very variable in. 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:05.080 The pine a little pinehursty. 0:37:05.800 --> 0:37:07.880 Yeah, but like you know, like on a on a 0:37:08.080 --> 0:37:11.759 three hundred and fifty yard part four, the rough from 0:37:11.920 --> 0:37:16.239 fifty yards in might be like a foot long on 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:19.520 one hole, I'm shot, But then on the next hole 0:37:20.320 --> 0:37:22.800 that's around that same yardage, it might be you know, 0:37:23.000 --> 0:37:25.680 like I want to just get people thinking, I want 0:37:25.719 --> 0:37:27.520 to get them on their heels. The other thing that 0:37:27.719 --> 0:37:31.320 I would do a lot of I would change And 0:37:31.440 --> 0:37:33.840 we saw this at Chambers Bay and they went nuts. 0:37:34.480 --> 0:37:36.840 I would change pars of holes day to day and 0:37:36.960 --> 0:37:41.680 day out, and change tea boxes radically. And this is 0:37:41.760 --> 0:37:44.799 the hard thing with grandstands and stuff. But let's be real, 0:37:44.920 --> 0:37:49.319 like so of these smaller like Century doesn't have grandstand requirements. 0:37:51.239 --> 0:37:55.040 Nobody's there, there are no fans, so like I would have, 0:37:55.520 --> 0:37:58.120 like all of a sudden, like one day we might 0:37:58.200 --> 0:38:01.800 play the longest part four from the forward t and 0:38:02.040 --> 0:38:06.200 just create a situation where they like they need to understand, 0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:09.399 like they have all these guys know where the tea 0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:14.680 boxes are going to be. That's like saying, Hey, Tom Brady, 0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:20.120 we're going to run We'll just use a modern Patrick Mahomes. 0:38:21.120 --> 0:38:24.440 We're going to run a cover two with a spylinebacker, 0:38:24.480 --> 0:38:26.960 and we're not going to disguise anything all game long. 0:38:27.960 --> 0:38:31.239 Like these guys have all built their strategies, make them 0:38:31.280 --> 0:38:34.200 at least build a strategy on every tea box on 0:38:34.280 --> 0:38:37.800 the golf course. Don't tell them where they're going to be, 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:43.680 you know, make them understand like how to play from everywhere. 0:38:44.760 --> 0:38:46.680 And this is the way I would start to think 0:38:46.719 --> 0:38:50.680 about like these the setup crew of the PGA Tour 0:38:50.880 --> 0:38:55.120 should not be there to hold the player's hands and 0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:59.440 coddle them and create a Marriott like experience where we 0:38:59.560 --> 0:39:02.360 can wet. It's the same thing, right, Like I know, 0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:04.520 I'm checking into my room and I know what to expect. 0:39:04.560 --> 0:39:06.960 I've got my bottle of water here, I got my 0:39:07.080 --> 0:39:09.800 king bad and I got my desk, you know, what 0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:12.480 I want those guys to do is I want it 0:39:12.600 --> 0:39:16.319 to be you know, the the Bill Belichick scheming all 0:39:16.440 --> 0:39:19.760 week on how he's going to get in Peyton Manning's kitchen, 0:39:20.120 --> 0:39:22.800 and it would be really cool to you know, you 0:39:22.960 --> 0:39:25.800 talked about like value adds of of like how you 0:39:25.880 --> 0:39:29.520 can make fans get more into it. You have these 0:39:29.520 --> 0:39:33.040 setup guys come on in on Sunday and be like, 0:39:33.840 --> 0:39:35.920 here's what we were thinking this week, and this is 0:39:35.960 --> 0:39:38.960 the game plan we just devise to try and thwart 0:39:39.040 --> 0:39:42.520 these guys. This is what you're gonna see today. And 0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:45.600 this was why we moved this here and this here 0:39:46.320 --> 0:39:49.479 was like it brings this bunker into play, this little 0:39:49.640 --> 0:39:53.359 this rough area with this pin. It might you might 0:39:53.440 --> 0:39:55.440 think you want to push it up, but if you 0:39:55.560 --> 0:39:57.759 push it up with this pin, it's gonna be a 0:39:57.800 --> 0:39:59.799 really hard pitch shot. You might want to lay back. 0:40:00.160 --> 0:40:04.080 Like that is what people want out of a sport. 0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:08.840 They want complexity, to dive in and really understand it. 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:13.120 If if modern media of sports like that is why 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:17.160 people like podcasts, That's why people listen to these football 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:19.560 podcasts that get into like the x's and o's and 0:40:19.880 --> 0:40:23.120 you know, like Nate TICE is like a fascinating football podcast. 0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:26.359 He's talking about coverages. I don't know what he's talking about, really, 0:40:26.640 --> 0:40:31.840 but I appreciate the complexity of the sport, and the 0:40:32.000 --> 0:40:35.160 PGA Tour is just dumbing it down every chance they 0:40:35.200 --> 0:40:35.640 can get. 0:40:36.560 --> 0:40:39.200 Unfortunately, I think they would argue they have those people 0:40:39.280 --> 0:40:41.040 and that's what they're doing, and they're sitting there on 0:40:41.120 --> 0:40:43.759 Sunday saying, here's the game plan for the next four 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:46.359 to eight Thursday, the next tournament. But I don't think 0:40:46.400 --> 0:40:50.640 they have an inherent understanding of what actually tests professional golfers. 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:54.920 I don't think they have the courage to test golfers provocatively. 0:40:54.360 --> 0:40:54.440 And. 0:40:56.719 --> 0:40:59.839 They're just trying to not upset anybody every week. 0:41:00.239 --> 0:41:02.600 They want the morning to play like the afternoon on 0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:06.040 Thursday and Friday. Like there's so many of these considerations 0:41:06.080 --> 0:41:08.160 that tame the golf course. And to kind of bring 0:41:08.239 --> 0:41:11.000 this full circle, like I know this isn't a TGL pod, 0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:13.440 but this is kind of the appeal of TGL, Like 0:41:14.040 --> 0:41:16.600 you don't have the constraints, You get to set the 0:41:16.640 --> 0:41:18.600 conditions however you want, and you can have an eight 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:22.640 hundred yard par four like it doesn't matter because you 0:41:22.719 --> 0:41:24.400 don't actually have to have the land and find a 0:41:24.480 --> 0:41:28.000 venue to host. So I really like this conversation because 0:41:28.040 --> 0:41:30.320 Kapaalua just hits on all of these different things, and 0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:32.480 it's gonna come to a boiling point every year at 0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:34.040 this venue when there's not a lot of wind. 0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:36.399 I think this could be a theme of the year. 0:41:36.880 --> 0:41:41.520 Is this exact conversation a week in week out. They 0:41:41.640 --> 0:41:44.840 might do something like Riviera if it's wet and calm, 0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:49.760 without whether it could be something, you know, some record 0:41:49.800 --> 0:41:52.160 scoring and I think this is just going to be 0:41:52.400 --> 0:41:54.480 a nail. And I think like we're starting to see 0:41:54.520 --> 0:41:58.120 people say, you know what, like for for twenty years, 0:41:58.280 --> 0:42:00.279 it's just been like these guys are better and better, 0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:02.759 They're better and better, and I think we've reached a 0:42:02.800 --> 0:42:05.319 point where where fans are starting to say they aren't better. 0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:09.719 This is you've just devalued the sport. And I think 0:42:09.760 --> 0:42:12.839 that's where we're at. It was an interesting first week. 0:42:13.239 --> 0:42:17.400 I love Kapalua, and I just, you know, I hope 0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:23.080 that there there begins to be an awakening that that 0:42:23.239 --> 0:42:27.880 defense matters in pro golf and it can't that Bertie 0:42:28.040 --> 0:42:31.239 Bonanzas are not the best way forward because what you're 0:42:31.280 --> 0:42:35.560 doing is you're really limiting the number of shots and 0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:38.520 the amazing things that these players can do. And you're 0:42:38.880 --> 0:42:41.320 you're you know, they want to build superstars, and and 0:42:41.440 --> 0:42:43.640 this is the way you build superstars is by having 0:42:43.719 --> 0:42:44.640 more compelling tests. 0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:47.560 Oh and by the way, the four tournaments that prioritize 0:42:47.600 --> 0:42:49.720 defense are also the most popular. 0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:52.600 I don't know if the PGA is one of those four, 0:42:52.760 --> 0:42:54.919 but that's kind of got a little a little better. 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:59.680 But that's yeah, yeah, So all right, Joseph, we get 0:42:59.719 --> 0:43:04.520 see all of your work the wildly popular design Disasters, 0:43:04.880 --> 0:43:09.200 the Fridagg newsletter and on the Fridagg website. Thank you 0:43:09.320 --> 0:43:20.960 for coming on, Thanks for having me. All right, big 0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:23.600 thanks to Joseph for hopping on. Let's get over to 0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:28.520 our architecture segment of this podcast and our guest jaeger Kovich. 0:43:29.280 --> 0:43:32.400 But first let's talk about our friend at Club Champion. 0:43:33.160 --> 0:43:36.600 We are thrilled to have them back in twenty twenty five. 0:43:37.840 --> 0:43:43.760 I've been going to Club Champions since probably about two thousand. 0:43:44.040 --> 0:43:46.560 It's probably been about twenty five years of my life. 0:43:46.640 --> 0:43:50.280 They started in Chicago, where I was a high school golfer. 0:43:51.520 --> 0:43:53.920 When I first visited there, I remember, I think I 0:43:54.000 --> 0:43:57.960 got the set I got they built for me, the 0:43:58.080 --> 0:44:00.200 first set they built for me. I believe we're the 0:44:00.280 --> 0:44:04.600 ping I three pluses or the ping I threes for 0:44:04.719 --> 0:44:08.160 those equipment junkies. A trip down memory lane, I'll never 0:44:08.239 --> 0:44:10.320 forget I had. I think they were. I think I 0:44:10.400 --> 0:44:13.000 got rifle shafts in them, and that was a big 0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:17.760 deal for a kid back then. They now have grown 0:44:17.840 --> 0:44:22.360 from just a little one man band to a massive, 0:44:24.520 --> 0:44:28.960 massive company. They have a ton of stores all over 0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:32.040 the country. Really, if you're in any sort of major metro, 0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:36.000 they have a studio where you can go get fit 0:44:36.160 --> 0:44:39.600 by one of their highly trained master fitters. They have 0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:43.360 an in house university where every fitter goes through an 0:44:43.520 --> 0:44:48.000 education and comes out really really technically sound on how 0:44:48.040 --> 0:44:51.440 to fit clubs. My favorite thing about their stores is 0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:55.879 they have all the brands, every brand, and every type 0:44:55.880 --> 0:44:58.239 of shaft, so you know that you are going to 0:44:58.280 --> 0:45:00.520 get the clubs that are best for you. It is 0:45:00.600 --> 0:45:03.920 not like so many times I've gone into one of 0:45:03.960 --> 0:45:07.520 their studios with an idea of what I'm gonna get 0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:11.160 and I walk out with something different. Because the numbers 0:45:11.200 --> 0:45:15.319 don't lie. So if you're interested in getting a new 0:45:15.480 --> 0:45:19.640 setup for twenty twenty five. Go to club Champion dot 0:45:19.719 --> 0:45:22.719 com slash Frida Egg and use the code fried Egg 0:45:23.040 --> 0:45:26.200 no spaces. That's Frida Egg. So club champion dot com 0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:29.759 slash Frida Egg and you get a free driver or 0:45:29.880 --> 0:45:32.520 iron fitting with a club purchase. So if you use 0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:35.359 that code and you can get a free fitting uh 0:45:35.480 --> 0:45:37.600 with a purchase of a club. So check that out 0:45:38.480 --> 0:45:41.200 and thanks to the Club Champion for their ongoing support. 0:45:49.440 --> 0:45:53.359 All Right, Jaeger, Welcome on the pod. Frequent guest. We've 0:45:53.440 --> 0:45:56.840 had a couple episodes with you over the years and 0:45:57.239 --> 0:45:59.399 excited to have you on. At the start of twenty 0:45:59.440 --> 0:46:02.040 twenty five, I wanted to do a little golf course 0:46:02.160 --> 0:46:06.520 architecture check in from an active, practicing golf course architect 0:46:07.080 --> 0:46:12.960 and really see what ideas topics are rumbling around your 0:46:13.000 --> 0:46:16.680 head for twenty twenty five and beyond. But first I 0:46:16.800 --> 0:46:20.080 got to ask, dude, are there what are like New 0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:23.040 Year's resolutions? Like as a golf course architect, are there 0:46:23.120 --> 0:46:27.080 professional resolutions? And what are they? Are they? Mostly? If 0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:30.840 I had to guess, they're mostly centered around getting plans 0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:33.360 turned around, not at the last minute. 0:46:36.640 --> 0:46:40.160 I wouldn't define that as a you know, resolution as 0:46:40.239 --> 0:46:46.319 much as just like everyday anxiety. You know, this year, 0:46:46.719 --> 0:46:50.160 in all honesty, I did not make a resolution. I 0:46:50.239 --> 0:46:54.279 have been years past, you know what have they been? 0:46:57.600 --> 0:47:03.520 Probably less like super work related. You know. One of 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:07.719 them was trying to shoot in the seventies at least 0:47:07.840 --> 0:47:11.480 five times a year, and I did. I did achieve 0:47:11.560 --> 0:47:16.040 it that year. You know, I kind of started like 0:47:16.520 --> 0:47:22.359 mid year sort of change in my life. I guess, 0:47:23.560 --> 0:47:28.600 doing a lot more working out, trying to I took 0:47:28.680 --> 0:47:31.760 my first lesson golf lesson in twenty years this summer. 0:47:31.920 --> 0:47:34.960 So I feel like I tried this like switch in 0:47:35.120 --> 0:47:39.440 my life, mostly because my three year old can basically 0:47:39.560 --> 0:47:43.319 outrun me and beat me up and trying to keep 0:47:43.400 --> 0:47:46.719 up with him, but also just like you know, the 0:47:46.880 --> 0:47:51.080 daily grind of being in the doser, in the excavator, 0:47:51.480 --> 0:47:57.040 constantly walking. I still drive the mini Clubman you made 0:47:57.080 --> 0:48:01.399 me famous for many many years ago. Folding myself into 0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:06.400 that honestly is now hurting, Yeah exactly, it is now 0:48:06.600 --> 0:48:09.279 quite frankly just like starting to wear on my back 0:48:09.320 --> 0:48:12.680 Between all of these So, you know, I kind of 0:48:12.719 --> 0:48:15.759 got on this routine more in the midsummer. So I'm 0:48:15.800 --> 0:48:19.000 really just trying to keep on the pace I've been 0:48:19.080 --> 0:48:21.840 in and not fall behind. And then I feel like, 0:48:22.520 --> 0:48:25.719 you know, you know, we're like three to five months 0:48:25.840 --> 0:48:27.800 like ahead of the curve here with all these resolution 0:48:27.960 --> 0:48:29.759 people that are just showing up to the gym like 0:48:29.840 --> 0:48:33.200 we're we've already been there, we know the routine. So 0:48:33.440 --> 0:48:37.480 that it's that's kind of that's kind of where my 0:48:37.600 --> 0:48:40.279 head's at right now for a lot of stuff. But 0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:43.799 maybe that maybe the Mini Cooper is not that long 0:48:43.880 --> 0:48:45.640 for the world. I'm it's it's tough. 0:48:46.560 --> 0:48:49.480 The key, the key to the gym stuff, I believe 0:48:49.840 --> 0:48:53.040 is you got to get in early. You've got to 0:48:53.120 --> 0:48:57.400 start your New Year's gym routine in November. You got 0:48:57.520 --> 0:49:01.520 to beat people in there at the minimum and and 0:49:01.640 --> 0:49:05.520 then feel like you're regular by the time January hits. 0:49:05.760 --> 0:49:07.080 Otherwise you got no hope. 0:49:07.960 --> 0:49:10.760 Yeah, I yeah, totally agree. 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:14.760 I think we're Is the excavator hard on your body, 0:49:16.120 --> 0:49:19.200 like I imagine, does it like move around a lot 0:49:19.400 --> 0:49:20.959 like jolts and stuff. 0:49:21.120 --> 0:49:24.640 You kind of like watching if you're watching, you can 0:49:24.719 --> 0:49:27.280 see I do a lot of rocking. So the machine 0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:30.560 does a lot of like the buckets going down and 0:49:30.719 --> 0:49:33.319 even if you have like a blade on the front 0:49:33.320 --> 0:49:36.360 where you can stabilize yourself, you end up doing this 0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:39.080 a lot. So it's really hard to like maintain like 0:49:39.680 --> 0:49:44.160 good posture in there. And then the dozer can be 0:49:44.560 --> 0:49:47.240 you know, the smoother you are, the smoother and easier 0:49:47.400 --> 0:49:49.920 ride it's going to be. But you're backing up and 0:49:50.040 --> 0:49:52.320 you pop up, you know, run over a rock like 0:49:52.520 --> 0:49:57.200 you absolutely feel it. So you know this year, we're 0:49:57.239 --> 0:49:59.719 going up to Rocky, Connecticut in the middle. 0:49:59.440 --> 0:49:59.839 Of the year. 0:50:00.320 --> 0:50:05.000 Uh, so we're going to be prepared for uh, we 0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:08.080 want to make sure we can last for not just 0:50:08.160 --> 0:50:10.520 this year, but you know the long term, right, I 0:50:10.600 --> 0:50:13.799 expected be in these machines for you know, a good 0:50:14.080 --> 0:50:16.640 you know, thirty plus years more. I guess you know 0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:21.920 probably uh, you know, everybody's you know to go retire 0:50:22.000 --> 0:50:25.240 these days, right, so you know you never retire, correct? 0:50:25.400 --> 0:50:27.879 You know, Gil still in that machine too. I don't 0:50:27.920 --> 0:50:30.759 know how he's been able to, uh, you know, do that. 0:50:31.000 --> 0:50:33.600 But I'm starting to think a little bit room your 0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:37.799 car might also be. So maybe that that folds into 0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:38.720 your resolution. 0:50:39.120 --> 0:50:41.480 Well, Tom's saying he is going to retire, He's going 0:50:41.560 --> 0:50:42.320 to buck the trend. 0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:46.240 I guess we'll see, we will see, we will. 0:50:46.120 --> 0:50:50.600 See how much different, how much harder do you feel 0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:54.920 it when you're working in rock and Connecticut versus sand 0:50:55.160 --> 0:50:58.080 on Long Island. Is like there is a noticeable different 0:50:58.600 --> 0:50:59.439 day and day out. 0:51:00.280 --> 0:51:04.319 Yeah. So last summer we did about a month long 0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:08.399 project at Old Sandwich and just this absolute sugar sand. 0:51:08.480 --> 0:51:11.880 It wasn't even like slightly rocky. It was like pure 0:51:12.000 --> 0:51:15.000 sand because they had dumped feet and feet and feet 0:51:15.040 --> 0:51:17.480 and feet just to fill this area many years ago 0:51:17.520 --> 0:51:20.839 before we even got there. Of like screen sand. Its 0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:25.120 just like so smooth, it's so much quicker. It's you know, 0:51:25.239 --> 0:51:28.200 there's other it washes away, it shifts a little bit more. 0:51:28.320 --> 0:51:31.040 You had to do some other things, but yeah, it 0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:38.080 was it was a big delight versus where where we're 0:51:38.120 --> 0:51:39.359 heading out later this year. 0:51:40.200 --> 0:51:43.359 All right, Jaeger, what let's just do a little quick 0:51:43.440 --> 0:51:47.399 twenty four and twenty five look ahead. What was your 0:51:48.920 --> 0:51:52.279 the golf course that you saw in twenty four that 0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:55.400 you maybe think about the most or had the biggest 0:51:55.440 --> 0:51:58.719 impact on you? And then in twenty five, what's one 0:51:58.840 --> 0:51:59.880 course you really want to. 0:52:01.160 --> 0:52:06.160 Yeah, well I had a pretty good twenty twenty four 0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:10.480 golfing wise, I finally got to make a bit of 0:52:10.560 --> 0:52:13.800 a trip of a lifetime, a bit of a delayed honeymoon. 0:52:15.280 --> 0:52:19.719 I spent two weeks in Australia and New Zealand in 0:52:20.040 --> 0:52:24.560 March and February. My design associate Nick Mills got married 0:52:26.160 --> 0:52:29.239 at Kingston Heath. We even helped to play on the 0:52:29.320 --> 0:52:32.400 morning of his wedding, which it was pretty cool. I 0:52:32.480 --> 0:52:34.680 don't think even missus proper golf wouldn't have allowed that. 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:40.040 But so with that trip, there are two golf courses 0:52:40.280 --> 0:52:45.839 that I think about all the time, and that's Royal 0:52:45.880 --> 0:52:49.839 Melbourne West you know when probably the composite when, because 0:52:49.880 --> 0:52:51.919 I was able to play both and just thinking about 0:52:51.960 --> 0:52:55.799 the mashup of the two of them. And then Tara 0:52:56.000 --> 0:53:02.520 d in New Zealand there you know, the two without 0:53:02.600 --> 0:53:06.160 a doubt dope tens that I played this year and 0:53:07.440 --> 0:53:12.919 there I Everybody always asks me what my favorite golf 0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:14.880 course in the world is, and I used to give 0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:18.120 an answer of three. I've had to expand my answer 0:53:18.400 --> 0:53:19.479 beyond three. 0:53:19.760 --> 0:53:21.839 At this point, is it five? Now? 0:53:23.760 --> 0:53:26.040 I kind of I kind of say it's five and 0:53:26.080 --> 0:53:30.959 then I mumble six, What's what is it? Well? Those 0:53:31.040 --> 0:53:38.839 two Pine Valley National Golf Links, uh Bally, New North, 0:53:38.920 --> 0:53:41.440 Barrick West. Those are the six I mentioned. 0:53:42.200 --> 0:53:45.960 That's good. What so if you were going to distill 0:53:46.120 --> 0:53:50.000 down like one thing about Royal Melbourne that you really 0:53:51.600 --> 0:53:55.120 you know that that really stands out one thing about 0:53:55.200 --> 0:53:57.719 Terry e D. What are those things? 0:54:01.520 --> 0:54:09.560 I mean, they're very different. The the entire day at 0:54:11.400 --> 0:54:16.000 Terry e D. It's exceptional. It's a bit of a 0:54:16.080 --> 0:54:20.719 lower key vibe. There's you're probably not going to see 0:54:20.719 --> 0:54:24.600 as many people. It's you know, I think to a degree, 0:54:24.880 --> 0:54:27.719 as natural as Royal Melburn is is on a whole 0:54:27.800 --> 0:54:33.200 other level. With that and the beauty the golf holes 0:54:33.400 --> 0:54:37.440 are exceptional. I think it really starts to you know, 0:54:37.600 --> 0:54:44.759 it builds nicely. The turf is unbelievable. It's basically just 0:54:44.880 --> 0:54:50.160 a beautiful sea of continuous short grass rescues. It's it's 0:54:50.400 --> 0:54:54.800 just it's just a magical day in every way, shape 0:54:54.880 --> 0:55:00.320 or form. You know. Royal Melbourne is bit of a 0:55:00.400 --> 0:55:04.600 different It's obviously a much harder golf course. It's, you know, 0:55:05.520 --> 0:55:09.520 probably the greatest championship golf course in the world. I 0:55:09.680 --> 0:55:15.560 think I have not played Oakmont, I've only walked it. 0:55:16.120 --> 0:55:23.879 But I think given the amount of fine turf uh there, 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:29.800 the firmness, the more natural beauty and things. 0:55:29.920 --> 0:55:30.319 I just. 0:55:33.080 --> 0:55:38.840 I just there is such an incredible diversity to the holes, 0:55:38.920 --> 0:55:45.120 the strategies. I just I walked it in the morning, 0:55:46.440 --> 0:55:49.719 I kind of charted my way through it, and then 0:55:50.160 --> 0:55:53.319 I went out there in the afternoon and I really 0:55:53.440 --> 0:55:56.759 tried to like execute on my plan and it was 0:55:57.239 --> 0:56:02.640 really unbelievable. You know, it helps when you occasionally as 0:56:03.440 --> 0:56:06.880 are able to do that and execute even at my level. 0:56:07.160 --> 0:56:14.160 And you know, the people in Australia and Melbourne I 0:56:14.320 --> 0:56:20.200 met were beyond friendly. They were super kind. They really 0:56:20.320 --> 0:56:22.919 wanted to share their golf course with you and ask 0:56:23.040 --> 0:56:26.480 you about each and everything after are you playing here? 0:56:26.920 --> 0:56:31.800 Like it's it's again, It's just like remarkable in like 0:56:32.080 --> 0:56:41.000 every single way. You know, there's without you know, I 0:56:41.200 --> 0:56:44.160 just can't wait to plan my next trip down there 0:56:44.520 --> 0:56:46.040 to wealth of these places. 0:56:46.320 --> 0:56:51.000 It's what you said about Royal Melbourne. It was so evident. 0:56:51.280 --> 0:56:54.600 The first hole of the President's Cup of like that 0:56:54.760 --> 0:56:58.080 idea of like charting your way around where the America 0:56:58.320 --> 0:57:01.759 that first hole of the composite course, the Americans were 0:57:01.840 --> 0:57:04.520 trying to hit it up close to the green. Yeah, 0:57:04.560 --> 0:57:08.920 and the the Internationals were all laying back and it 0:57:09.040 --> 0:57:12.000 was like a bloodbath the first all like the Americans 0:57:12.040 --> 0:57:15.479 were playing American golf, just blasted up by the green 0:57:15.640 --> 0:57:18.320 and the and the Internationals laid back and it was 0:57:18.440 --> 0:57:21.440 like it was the Internationals just smoked them, like they 0:57:21.600 --> 0:57:24.160 understood they respected the golf course. 0:57:25.600 --> 0:57:28.680 So and I watching that and watching where people were 0:57:28.760 --> 0:57:32.640 hitting it, like ow one hundred percent helped me on 0:57:32.880 --> 0:57:36.160 that hole, among others. You know. I walked you know, 0:57:36.240 --> 0:57:37.720 the course in the morning. I saw there was a 0:57:38.440 --> 0:57:41.360 way back left pin onto which is a part five, 0:57:41.480 --> 0:57:43.440 and I'm like, oh man, I'm going to go this 0:57:43.640 --> 0:57:46.360 far right as right can get on the with the 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:48.520 mash in a three wood up there that you know 0:57:48.720 --> 0:57:51.040 I can't get there, but just get the angle and 0:57:51.280 --> 0:57:53.720 like if you're able to do that and come it 0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:55.800 just like all of a sudden, I just got zoned 0:57:55.840 --> 0:58:02.000 in and there's that's a place that you know, the 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:11.320 It has some very heavily contourt greens, but I would 0:58:11.400 --> 0:58:16.480 say it's certainly known for firmness, speed kind of everything. 0:58:16.800 --> 0:58:21.000 But it still is able. The Mackenzie's green complexes still 0:58:21.040 --> 0:58:27.560 are able to have tons of whole locations available for use. 0:58:28.400 --> 0:58:30.520 You know, it's not like you get the speeds going 0:58:30.520 --> 0:58:32.439 and you have one or two hole locations. You still 0:58:32.520 --> 0:58:36.040 have a huge variety with them, like throughout, even if 0:58:36.120 --> 0:58:38.320 it's there's maybe one or two that you know, probably 0:58:38.360 --> 0:58:42.680 a little tighter than the others, but in general, you know, 0:58:42.880 --> 0:58:45.840 it just it works so well at when you dial 0:58:45.920 --> 0:58:50.320 it up, it just is magic. You know. I wish, 0:58:50.640 --> 0:58:52.600 I just hope one day I'm able to play the 0:58:52.720 --> 0:58:55.600 composite and I probably need to be either a member 0:58:56.280 --> 0:58:58.600 or where they get to do it like once or 0:58:58.600 --> 0:59:01.080 twice a year, or I have to somehow qualify for 0:59:01.120 --> 0:59:02.640 a tournament, which is never going to happen. 0:59:03.080 --> 0:59:06.280 So you are maybe a media member before a Peak Cup. 0:59:06.720 --> 0:59:08.440 Maybe well transitioned to media. 0:59:09.320 --> 0:59:12.280 You know. I know architects never retire, but there's like 0:59:12.360 --> 0:59:15.160 a twenty five wait list year waitlist to you know, 0:59:15.640 --> 0:59:18.080 Royal Melbourne. And I was like, you know, I was 0:59:18.160 --> 0:59:20.680 thinking about it really really really hard when I got 0:59:21.760 --> 0:59:24.360 do we just you know, kid'll be in college. Do 0:59:24.480 --> 0:59:26.400 we just try to be like instead of going to 0:59:26.480 --> 0:59:30.040 Florida or something like that, you know, there go there 0:59:30.080 --> 0:59:33.840 in the winner, hanging out with Nick play some you know, 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:36.960 amazing golf. There is like. 0:59:39.160 --> 0:59:43.360 Still very tempting this you you, those are two of 0:59:43.400 --> 0:59:45.960 the places I most want to get to. And uh 0:59:46.440 --> 0:59:48.920 and I'm I feel like I'm running out of time 0:59:49.000 --> 0:59:52.400 on this year already we get there? What twenty five? 0:59:52.600 --> 0:59:55.360 What's what's the one course you'd love to see a 0:59:55.440 --> 0:59:56.920 twenty five that you haven't seen yet? 0:59:58.960 --> 0:59:59.080 Uh? 1:00:01.320 --> 1:00:03.520 Realistic or non realistic? 1:00:04.600 --> 1:00:08.040 Wherever you want to get nonrealistic is better. 1:00:09.600 --> 1:00:19.919 Non realistic at this point, probably for different reasons. I'll 1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:26.240 name too barn Google. You know, I really wish I 1:00:26.480 --> 1:00:29.280 somehow could have found an entire extra week and gone 1:00:29.320 --> 1:00:34.640 and done a trip to Tazzi and seen some more stuff. 1:00:34.680 --> 1:00:37.280 But Barn Google would have been the absolute number one 1:00:37.920 --> 1:00:41.480 of those Australian courses New Zealand Corps. I didn't get 1:00:41.520 --> 1:00:44.600 to see that I'd really like to see. I think 1:00:44.720 --> 1:00:49.040 it's got the you know, it's the Bali Neils down 1:00:49.120 --> 1:00:53.120 on your cousin and I'd really like to check that 1:00:53.200 --> 1:00:56.200 out one day, and I hope it's not too long. 1:00:57.680 --> 1:01:01.160 And then I guess maybe the second one, partially because 1:01:01.440 --> 1:01:05.120 I have walked in haven't played it, because of you know, 1:01:05.240 --> 1:01:10.680 just everything I would I would like to see Oakmont 1:01:10.960 --> 1:01:13.960 and play Oakmont. Probably be a tougher year with the 1:01:14.640 --> 1:01:17.760 open there, it's gonna be probably be a little restricted 1:01:17.880 --> 1:01:22.120 to uh, you know, people like me. But I think 1:01:22.280 --> 1:01:31.280 that you know, that's that's one of the very best 1:01:31.320 --> 1:01:35.920 golf courses that is incredibly unique that I have not 1:01:36.080 --> 1:01:39.760 got to play. I was able to see. I got 1:01:39.800 --> 1:01:43.960 a lot, a lot of boxes checked last year. 1:01:44.160 --> 1:01:47.680 So it might be a down year, that's what you're 1:01:47.680 --> 1:01:48.840 assuming to be hunting at. 1:01:50.200 --> 1:01:56.320 Well, I don't know, man, I mean, I I still 1:01:56.400 --> 1:02:01.040 am very, very determined to at least see a minimum 1:02:01.080 --> 1:02:03.840 of fifty different golf courses a year. It's going to 1:02:03.880 --> 1:02:07.400 be very difficult with the work schedule, which gets bigger 1:02:07.560 --> 1:02:10.960 by the day, with our projects that you know, it's 1:02:11.000 --> 1:02:15.320 gonna be bigger than ever this year. But I've I've 1:02:15.520 --> 1:02:21.440 seen fifty for the last there's maybe been two years 1:02:21.520 --> 1:02:24.200 in the last decade, or I haven't seen fifty in 1:02:24.320 --> 1:02:27.320 some years it's been more. So I'm gonna push for 1:02:27.880 --> 1:02:31.120 That's just a regular that's not a resolution, that's just 1:02:31.160 --> 1:02:33.240 a normal life. 1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:36.680 That's it. I would love to be at that number two. 1:02:36.960 --> 1:02:39.880 It's I do you count them? 1:02:39.960 --> 1:02:43.640 Do you track your account? Yeah, I don't know if 1:02:43.680 --> 1:02:46.680 I hit fifty last year, I probably was around forty something. 1:02:46.960 --> 1:02:49.760 It's hard. It's hard to hit. I always had a 1:02:49.800 --> 1:02:52.440 lot of time on the road, it is. 1:02:53.360 --> 1:02:57.800 But you know I can the area here. It's easier, right, 1:02:57.920 --> 1:03:00.920 I mean, it's a little bit easier in the if 1:03:00.960 --> 1:03:02.960 you want to stick it to the northeast. I could 1:03:03.000 --> 1:03:06.040 probably force my way there if I wanted to. 1:03:07.600 --> 1:03:11.120 Let's get to your your things real quick. So what's 1:03:11.200 --> 1:03:14.080 the b the first burning thing on your list? 1:03:15.520 --> 1:03:19.760 I mean, I don't think you could go any cost 1:03:19.880 --> 1:03:23.400 has to be the first one. And the price of projects, 1:03:23.920 --> 1:03:28.440 the price of materials, the price of golf, and you 1:03:28.560 --> 1:03:31.640 know what the cost of all of these things has 1:03:32.080 --> 1:03:35.680 been doing over the years in relation to projects, in 1:03:35.760 --> 1:03:40.200 relation to clubs and memberships and how things are being funded, 1:03:40.280 --> 1:03:45.360 and you know how busy things are. It's just there's 1:03:45.600 --> 1:03:49.600 so many different ways you can look and dive into 1:03:49.920 --> 1:03:55.440 the cost discussion here, you know, So like even you know, 1:03:56.840 --> 1:03:59.800 there's there's, like I said, you know, you have material costs, 1:04:00.240 --> 1:04:02.920 but like you know, they just keep going up. There's 1:04:03.240 --> 1:04:06.560 lots of trucking costs and things related to this there's sand, 1:04:06.600 --> 1:04:10.160 there's materials, there's all these things, and it keeps you know, 1:04:12.600 --> 1:04:16.720 you haven't seen any real reduced demand. There's definitely been 1:04:16.840 --> 1:04:22.800 more and more I think, tightening to a degree. But yeah, 1:04:22.800 --> 1:04:28.360 at the same time, there's another club seemingly behind next 1:04:28.440 --> 1:04:30.520 in line that almost wants to do more and more, 1:04:30.760 --> 1:04:35.320 even faster than some of you know. So it's crazy 1:04:35.480 --> 1:04:38.000 and it makes you think about how long this will continue. 1:04:39.560 --> 1:04:39.600 It. 1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:42.960 You know, it definitely is having an effect on the 1:04:43.040 --> 1:04:50.120 memberships and clubs looking to do projects. You know, it's 1:04:50.280 --> 1:04:54.240 like everybody's still in this. You have a wait list, 1:04:54.480 --> 1:04:57.520 you have a busier t sheet than ever so in 1:04:57.680 --> 1:05:01.440 my area right I'm in New jer I work in 1:05:01.520 --> 1:05:05.200 New Jersey, New York, Philly, Massachusetts, like generally throughout the 1:05:05.280 --> 1:05:09.080 region here, and you know, these clubs have witless and 1:05:09.320 --> 1:05:13.760 like there's not like another cheaper, easier place to go 1:05:14.080 --> 1:05:16.919 down the street. It's like another option if you don't 1:05:16.920 --> 1:05:20.439 want to buy into the things, so you see less 1:05:20.480 --> 1:05:25.800 junior memberships. It's just it's wild. You know, we could 1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:28.480 get into you know, break down more of the construction 1:05:28.640 --> 1:05:32.440 costs and you start thinking about different ways to reduce things. 1:05:34.480 --> 1:05:37.840 It's just it's you wonder how long it's all gonna 1:05:37.880 --> 1:05:40.800 last like this, but you know, some people tell you 1:05:40.880 --> 1:05:42.360 the next four years are going to be even better. 1:05:42.400 --> 1:05:43.640 It's hard to say, you know, I don't know. 1:05:44.640 --> 1:05:47.040 And I mean, that's that's the thing, right, It's got 1:05:47.160 --> 1:05:49.960 to be hard to be in your position too. You 1:05:50.320 --> 1:05:54.960 you create these proposals where you're saying, this is what 1:05:55.040 --> 1:05:58.360 it's going to cost, and then for the most part, 1:05:58.560 --> 1:06:01.800 a lot of these projects happen twelve months, eighteen months, 1:06:02.400 --> 1:06:08.280 twenty four months later, and you've been dealing with a extraordinarily, 1:06:09.400 --> 1:06:16.760 you know, rapidly increasing cost basis for everything. So have 1:06:16.960 --> 1:06:21.919 you noticed that, like just figuring out like a way 1:06:22.000 --> 1:06:24.800 to bid a project, like a way to price it. 1:06:25.320 --> 1:06:30.600 Has that been a challenge? I think. 1:06:31.920 --> 1:06:34.840 A handful of years ago, and certainly at the start 1:06:34.920 --> 1:06:40.720 of twenty twenty and probably going and shifting into twenty 1:06:40.840 --> 1:06:48.200 twenty two, it was dramatically changing. I think at this point, 1:06:48.360 --> 1:06:53.560 in all honesty, it's much more predictable. I work with 1:06:55.480 --> 1:07:00.560 a handful of golf contractors in the area pretty much, 1:07:00.840 --> 1:07:04.800 so we're pretty we're always doing projects in different places, 1:07:04.840 --> 1:07:06.800 and these are longer term clients. A lot of them 1:07:07.160 --> 1:07:09.520 so you can kind of you know what you did 1:07:10.200 --> 1:07:11.760 last year, we know what we're going to do the 1:07:11.800 --> 1:07:13.680 next year. We know that there's going to be some 1:07:13.960 --> 1:07:17.640 increase of you know, moderate percentage for the most part. 1:07:18.280 --> 1:07:21.680 And but you know, I think a lot of the 1:07:21.800 --> 1:07:26.640 materials are generally starting the level off, but there's certainly nuanced. 1:07:26.640 --> 1:07:28.800 And the thing is like where I am in the 1:07:28.920 --> 1:07:34.400 East Coast, everybody's buying sands from two or three sources. 1:07:34.840 --> 1:07:38.120 Or Pennsylvania, you're always doing this, do you buy the 1:07:38.760 --> 1:07:42.520 Ohio sands? There's two sands from Ohio that like I 1:07:42.560 --> 1:07:45.480 would say fifty percent of my clients are deciding two 1:07:46.520 --> 1:07:50.160 pro angle and what's called or was called the best 1:07:50.280 --> 1:07:53.520 nine hot, yeah, which was the nine hundred or something. 1:07:54.040 --> 1:08:00.360 And then you have another plant in Philadelphia which was 1:08:00.600 --> 1:08:04.520 like the go to sand for everybody for like I 1:08:04.600 --> 1:08:07.680 would say, a good five years leading into COVID, and 1:08:07.840 --> 1:08:10.680 then COVID sort of changed some stuff with that plant 1:08:11.000 --> 1:08:13.280 and now people are a little weary of it. 1:08:13.800 --> 1:08:14.760 Is that so like? 1:08:14.960 --> 1:08:19.480 But it's a little bit cheaper. It just like everybody's 1:08:19.520 --> 1:08:24.720 making some decisions based on risk, on price, on what 1:08:25.360 --> 1:08:29.720 they played at the other place. And then you've got 1:08:29.840 --> 1:08:36.280 obviously the liners. So like for example, right now that 1:08:36.880 --> 1:08:40.360 pro angle sand, why I have to purchase it for 1:08:40.680 --> 1:08:45.759 we have to purchase it for a club this spring 1:08:46.160 --> 1:08:48.599 in March, and you know it's one hundred and sixty 1:08:48.640 --> 1:08:52.639 dollars a ton, but know, yeah, I mean if. 1:08:52.520 --> 1:08:54.680 You fact, like it was like eighty a couple of 1:08:54.760 --> 1:08:55.200 years ago. 1:08:55.920 --> 1:08:58.919 Right, so when we did like you know, twenty sixteen, 1:08:58.960 --> 1:09:01.760 when we did all the ironomy, it might have been 1:09:01.840 --> 1:09:04.400 sixty four, Like you might be going from sixty four 1:09:04.479 --> 1:09:07.200 to that much. And a lot of it is you 1:09:07.360 --> 1:09:10.479 have trucking, you have labor, you have fuel, you have 1:09:10.640 --> 1:09:14.479 like all of these things. And then there's certainly seems 1:09:14.560 --> 1:09:17.720 like there's a golf tax. And then you know, some 1:09:17.920 --> 1:09:21.240 of these things aren't like always the like number one 1:09:21.840 --> 1:09:25.000 priority for some of these plants that like create these 1:09:25.080 --> 1:09:31.000 materials like the liners. Right you know, say capillary concrete, 1:09:31.240 --> 1:09:33.920 for example, is like a liner that everybody's heard of 1:09:34.080 --> 1:09:37.680 on the East Coast for sure, but like you know, 1:09:38.760 --> 1:09:41.840 concrete plants aren't in business to make capillary concrete. Like 1:09:41.920 --> 1:09:44.559 it's a micro percentage and like they've got to change 1:09:44.560 --> 1:09:46.840 a bunch of stuff to do it. And when you've 1:09:46.920 --> 1:09:51.000 got building work at all time high and roads and 1:09:51.080 --> 1:09:52.960 everything else at all times. You know, it just goes 1:09:53.040 --> 1:09:58.160 up and up, and it just there's so many different factors, 1:09:58.439 --> 1:10:00.840 like you can get into the nuance like that, but 1:10:00.960 --> 1:10:05.040 I definitely think there's you know, golf tax, there's everything, 1:10:05.160 --> 1:10:10.160 There's inflation, there's just it never seems I would say 1:10:10.280 --> 1:10:13.800 in general, it's somewhat leveling off. You know, I do, 1:10:15.160 --> 1:10:18.880 and I've learned since twenty twenty. And the higher the 1:10:18.960 --> 1:10:22.639 total numbers get, I feel like the much greater detail 1:10:22.760 --> 1:10:26.040 you need to get into in terms of budgeting, in 1:10:26.160 --> 1:10:29.240 terms of how you're measuring things, how you're calculating things, 1:10:29.479 --> 1:10:33.479 how you're tracking things, predicting things like because when the 1:10:33.600 --> 1:10:37.280 numbers are two to three what they were ten years ago, 1:10:37.680 --> 1:10:40.479 and the numbers are so high, people get much more 1:10:40.560 --> 1:10:43.599 nervous and you need to like how did it get 1:10:43.640 --> 1:10:45.560 that high? Like how? And so I need to be 1:10:45.560 --> 1:10:48.400 able to, you know, kind of prove where each little 1:10:48.800 --> 1:10:51.320 piece of the puzzle is going to. And that's how 1:10:52.120 --> 1:10:55.320 we're able to. You know, I have a really good 1:10:55.400 --> 1:10:59.920 track record at being on or a little bit under budget, 1:11:01.000 --> 1:11:05.800 you know, because of that and really trying to work 1:11:05.880 --> 1:11:08.360 with concert and clubs to fine tune it because it's 1:11:08.400 --> 1:11:10.720 it's very difficult, and it's the thing I worry the 1:11:10.760 --> 1:11:14.400 most about building bunkers, shaping bunkers, coming up with those ideas, 1:11:14.520 --> 1:11:18.360 Like I'm not very worried about that anymore. I'm not 1:11:18.520 --> 1:11:22.840 even worried about presenting, which is I hate public but 1:11:23.479 --> 1:11:26.240 you know, don't. That's not my favorite thing either, is 1:11:26.520 --> 1:11:30.679 speaking in front of large audience. But it's the budgeting 1:11:30.720 --> 1:11:32.560 and the fear of having to ask for more is 1:11:32.640 --> 1:11:35.000 the thing that keeps me up at night the most. 1:11:36.320 --> 1:11:41.439 It's you know, sand is like just a fascinating topic 1:11:42.760 --> 1:11:46.120 because the sand that everybody's buying is like the least 1:11:46.200 --> 1:11:50.559 hazardous sand in the world. M it is the bright 1:11:50.640 --> 1:11:54.320 white sand that the ball like everybody loves it. Every 1:11:54.439 --> 1:11:58.120 golfer loves it because they get in to it and 1:11:58.200 --> 1:12:00.759 the ball just magically pops out. 1:12:01.280 --> 1:12:03.800 Like it is the easy you have if you have 1:12:03.920 --> 1:12:07.120 good club head speed and you can you know how 1:12:07.160 --> 1:12:08.760 to hit a bunker shot, You're going to produce more 1:12:08.800 --> 1:12:11.200 spin and control it out of these perfect lies because 1:12:11.200 --> 1:12:13.400 it's not going to plug with the liner and the 1:12:13.680 --> 1:12:16.680 roller faces and the high flash sand Like we can 1:12:16.760 --> 1:12:19.200 make it come to the bottom like every time. 1:12:19.800 --> 1:12:21.439 But now it's what do you think about it? 1:12:21.520 --> 1:12:23.800 Funny because like I heard you talking about the Kapelua 1:12:23.880 --> 1:12:26.120 thing the other day and I was like thinking about 1:12:26.120 --> 1:12:28.760 the reduce, was like, well, what if you just let 1:12:28.800 --> 1:12:31.760 me let me just beach sand and make the hazards matter. 1:12:32.400 --> 1:12:36.280 So the Kapalua this was on the shotgun start, So 1:12:36.320 --> 1:12:39.000 I just want to put this out here on this pod. 1:12:39.400 --> 1:12:43.519 Capala is one of the few PGA Tour venues that 1:12:43.880 --> 1:12:48.559 uses non standardized sand, so they use the same sand 1:12:49.320 --> 1:12:51.720 at basically every tour stop. If you go to a 1:12:51.800 --> 1:12:55.720 TPC course, they have the same sand. There's another The 1:12:55.840 --> 1:12:58.760 goal of PGA tour set up really week in week 1:12:58.840 --> 1:13:01.679 out is they want it to be like a Marriott 1:13:01.840 --> 1:13:05.360 where the players check in and everything's the same. They 1:13:05.479 --> 1:13:08.639 know exactly what to expect, which, like as a golf fan, 1:13:09.160 --> 1:13:11.600 is probably the complete opposite of what you want. So 1:13:11.840 --> 1:13:14.040 you know, this maybe the start of the product problem. 1:13:14.120 --> 1:13:19.439 But Kapalua is historically the hardest place when you're in 1:13:19.560 --> 1:13:22.679 a bunker, and it is one of the few courses 1:13:23.120 --> 1:13:27.479 that doesn't have that standardized sand. The sand you're talking 1:13:27.560 --> 1:13:32.440 about from Ohio or Pennsylvania. Is that type of standardized 1:13:32.479 --> 1:13:36.000 sand that is the sand that PGA tour players love. 1:13:36.840 --> 1:13:38.400 You know, if you remember back. 1:13:38.400 --> 1:13:43.160 Super tested for the ideal firmness, the least amount of washing, 1:13:43.680 --> 1:13:46.280 like this is it. It's a dream. You know, if 1:13:46.360 --> 1:13:49.560 you had the amount of rain you had in in 1:13:49.680 --> 1:13:52.800 our area at points last year and it washed all 1:13:52.840 --> 1:13:55.880 the time, you would quit your job, if you worked 1:13:56.560 --> 1:13:58.720 on the maintenance staff, and you would never want to 1:13:58.760 --> 1:14:01.080 fix bunkers ever again for your life. So it makes 1:14:01.280 --> 1:14:04.040 all the sense in the world for every club to 1:14:04.200 --> 1:14:06.439 be pushing out because it's harder and harder and harder 1:14:06.479 --> 1:14:08.600 to find people that want to do it or the 1:14:08.640 --> 1:14:10.760 clubs that should be paying labor hours to do it. 1:14:11.240 --> 1:14:14.760 And then you have the exact It does the exact opposite. 1:14:14.840 --> 1:14:18.559 You know that it has this playability factor which is different. 1:14:19.280 --> 1:14:24.360 So you know, the sand's very expensive and it erodes 1:14:24.760 --> 1:14:31.639 the actual point of a hazard. It erods the point 1:14:31.680 --> 1:14:35.000 of a bunker. It makes it extraordinarily easy to play 1:14:35.080 --> 1:14:39.680 out of. It makes it reduces the impact that a 1:14:39.760 --> 1:14:43.400 bunker has. I think, like a great example, have you 1:14:43.479 --> 1:14:47.640 been to Sand Valley not yet? Bandon would be a 1:14:47.720 --> 1:14:51.120 great example. Too, when you you know, Bandon just has 1:14:51.280 --> 1:14:54.560 like the native sand. It's just like beach sand. What 1:14:54.800 --> 1:14:58.599 were you just brought up? So it has just beach sand. 1:14:59.000 --> 1:15:01.760 And I think, like something, if I'm playing I'm just 1:15:01.840 --> 1:15:07.280 gonna say, if I'm playing wingfoot, yep, if I'm at Bandon, 1:15:07.400 --> 1:15:11.680 I'm exponentially more terrified of bunkers than if I'm at 1:15:11.720 --> 1:15:16.240 wingfoot because of the sand profile. I know, at Wingfoot 1:15:16.360 --> 1:15:18.439 I'm going to be able to hit a high lofted 1:15:18.560 --> 1:15:22.760 spinny shot out of a bunker and it's probably not 1:15:22.920 --> 1:15:26.400 going to plug. At Bandon, I am terrified of it 1:15:26.520 --> 1:15:30.640 plugging sometimes, Like I don't have I don't have the 1:15:30.760 --> 1:15:34.240 capability of like having like six sets of wedges like pros, 1:15:34.600 --> 1:15:36.280 but like I have to go down to like I 1:15:36.400 --> 1:15:38.640 need a little more bounce out of the out of 1:15:38.680 --> 1:15:41.320 the bunkers when the sand gets heavier, so I go 1:15:41.439 --> 1:15:43.800 down to fifty six. It reduces the ability for me 1:15:43.880 --> 1:15:46.800 to get up. It makes short sight and misses more penalizing. 1:15:47.880 --> 1:15:51.680 But anyways, like, yeah, I guess I'm a member at 1:15:51.720 --> 1:15:56.960 a club that is exactly bally Isle right correct, totally 1:15:57.080 --> 1:16:02.000 natural sand. It's just what's there, And you know, I 1:16:02.200 --> 1:16:08.200 know that like a lot of my personal preferences of 1:16:08.479 --> 1:16:11.880 what like you know, the places, you know, I call 1:16:11.920 --> 1:16:13.960 it my happy place over there. You know, it's just 1:16:14.080 --> 1:16:15.599 like I love it more than anything. 1:16:16.400 --> 1:16:17.320 But that is not. 1:16:19.080 --> 1:16:25.599 Not what the desires and the intention of almost not all, 1:16:26.040 --> 1:16:30.240 but most of my clients are like we used at 1:16:30.920 --> 1:16:34.040 Old Sandwich this summer as an example. I mean they've 1:16:34.080 --> 1:16:38.400 been mining sand on site there. We didn't buy any materials. 1:16:38.600 --> 1:16:42.080 They screened from a pit themselves. We used it for mix. 1:16:42.520 --> 1:16:44.920 We didn't need to do like you know, and that 1:16:45.080 --> 1:16:46.680 was a place where we could get away with that. 1:16:47.160 --> 1:16:53.639 We do some much roughly roughly what percentage savings does 1:16:53.720 --> 1:16:57.760 a project like that have, Like if you could, like 1:16:58.240 --> 1:16:59.280 so you did it, I'll show you. 1:16:59.720 --> 1:17:06.400 Yeah, well I think better if you have we'll just 1:17:06.560 --> 1:17:13.040 we'll say a ten million dollar renovation generally speaking, you're 1:17:13.040 --> 1:17:18.040 about fifty to fifty materials to labor, okay, or within 1:17:18.200 --> 1:17:19.519 the forty to sixty realm. 1:17:20.200 --> 1:17:23.960 So I think that's that's a very big cost. 1:17:25.160 --> 1:17:28.920 Sure, you know, so is sod and grassing, and there's 1:17:29.000 --> 1:17:32.160 lots of nuances to it. Like we could go forever 1:17:32.560 --> 1:17:40.840 on those things. But we'll say your bog standard Northeast renovation. 1:17:42.160 --> 1:17:45.439 It's in the fifty to fifty materials labor forty sixty 1:17:47.720 --> 1:17:52.160 kind of thing. So the more you know, if you 1:17:52.200 --> 1:17:56.320 don't have to buy greens mix or bunker sand, you know, 1:17:56.920 --> 1:18:00.280 like I just mentioned, for an eighteen hole renovation out 1:18:00.320 --> 1:18:03.479 of time, at the cost of sands. Currently you're probably 1:18:03.600 --> 1:18:08.519 figuring five hundred thousand dollars line item going to sand. Wow, 1:18:09.320 --> 1:18:11.439 that's just to buy it, not to put it in, 1:18:11.800 --> 1:18:14.080 not to reshape it, not to do the drainage, not 1:18:14.200 --> 1:18:16.639 to do the liner, just to buy the sand. 1:18:18.000 --> 1:18:21.200 I think if you think about where one of the 1:18:21.280 --> 1:18:26.400 ways that golf in America, I think like using the 1:18:26.560 --> 1:18:29.639 term where I want to preface this. I don't think 1:18:29.760 --> 1:18:33.040 like lost its way is necessarily the right term, but 1:18:33.200 --> 1:18:37.479 it's certainly a term you think of. Here is the 1:18:37.640 --> 1:18:42.519 idea of what you are entitled to in a bunker 1:18:44.040 --> 1:18:47.400 if we were you know, if there's a rain event 1:18:48.080 --> 1:18:51.760 and bunkers are washed out, but we will get to 1:18:51.880 --> 1:18:55.560 them when we get to them. Like I had this 1:18:55.720 --> 1:19:00.720 takeaway actually from Pine Valley. I don't know if I've 1:19:00.800 --> 1:19:05.360 ever played like a super high end, super well regarded 1:19:05.720 --> 1:19:10.760 course with more inconsistent bunkers than Pine Valley, and you 1:19:10.840 --> 1:19:15.080 know what it was, It's demanding. It is like a 1:19:15.280 --> 1:19:18.559 true test of skill, Like you get in the bunker 1:19:19.160 --> 1:19:22.479 and you have to figure out, like what's this lie 1:19:23.280 --> 1:19:26.040 and what is it going to do? And the better, 1:19:26.479 --> 1:19:30.000 the more knowledgeable, the better player and the better bunker player, 1:19:30.080 --> 1:19:32.760 the more shots you have out of the bunker is 1:19:33.240 --> 1:19:37.439 absolutely rewarded. It is. It is like it's actually like 1:19:37.600 --> 1:19:40.920 something like I you know, everybody talks. Is the biggest 1:19:40.960 --> 1:19:43.880 thing I took away from Pine Valley was like, you know, 1:19:44.040 --> 1:19:46.599 people go to these places and they want to mimic 1:19:46.680 --> 1:19:49.160 the Green Speed, But here's like what a lot of 1:19:49.200 --> 1:19:52.280 people think is the greatest course in the world. Why 1:19:52.320 --> 1:19:55.400 don't people ever mimic the bunkers there? Because I guarantee 1:19:55.479 --> 1:19:59.120 the bunker maintenance expense is pretty low there in you know, 1:19:59.200 --> 1:20:01.360 they have a lot of but like in comparison to 1:20:01.479 --> 1:20:04.240 most clubs and it's arena, I would guess it's in 1:20:04.320 --> 1:20:05.960 the low end of bunker maintenance. 1:20:13.160 --> 1:20:16.240 I'm not certain there's a lot of hand labor that 1:20:16.760 --> 1:20:18.880 has to go into it because the amount of them 1:20:19.000 --> 1:20:23.160 and the plant varieties and things, so there's probably more 1:20:24.200 --> 1:20:26.840 I mean, Hin Valley is not known for a low 1:20:27.160 --> 1:20:33.000 maintenance budget, but you know before but but you know 1:20:33.120 --> 1:20:36.839 who is It has that exact same variability in bunkers 1:20:37.200 --> 1:20:39.880 and it's suggest a general region and it's due to 1:20:40.720 --> 1:20:44.519 probably the greatest material for golf courses on planet Earth. 1:20:44.560 --> 1:20:47.360 And that's the Melbourne sand Bell I took. You know, 1:20:47.439 --> 1:20:50.960 Garrett just came back. I took my first trip there 1:20:51.439 --> 1:20:57.679 in February March, and you know, Nick Mills, who works 1:20:57.720 --> 1:21:01.320 for me, is from there. And you know, you had 1:21:01.360 --> 1:21:04.160 the greatest variety of life. Sometimes it was hard packed 1:21:04.280 --> 1:21:06.479 and it could change in this corner of the bunker 1:21:06.520 --> 1:21:09.240 to that corner of the bunker, this course, that course, 1:21:09.320 --> 1:21:11.120 one side of the green, and the other different parts 1:21:11.120 --> 1:21:14.320 of the property. You know, you will occasionally get a 1:21:14.360 --> 1:21:17.600 plug lie in the face. But there's all sorts of 1:21:17.680 --> 1:21:22.519 different amounts of sand in these things. They're they're extremely variable. 1:21:22.720 --> 1:21:27.719 I found it a much much different shot than I would. 1:21:27.960 --> 1:21:30.320 You know, I'm a pretty good bunker player at home. 1:21:30.439 --> 1:21:34.840 That's that's like, you know, that's probably the best part 1:21:34.920 --> 1:21:40.320 of my game. And I really struggled there. And you know, 1:21:40.800 --> 1:21:44.360 Melbourne sand Belt certainly known for the bunker and they're 1:21:44.439 --> 1:21:47.800 really known for that magical you know, black sand kind 1:21:47.840 --> 1:21:51.800 of stuff that just compacts and it's just gold. But 1:21:53.080 --> 1:21:59.120 you know, I think part of you know, what makes 1:21:59.400 --> 1:22:01.920 you know, probably Royal Melbourne one of the great you know, 1:22:02.000 --> 1:22:06.040 probably maybe the greatest championship course some the world, is 1:22:06.400 --> 1:22:08.760 stuff like that, and it makes those courses, you know, 1:22:08.880 --> 1:22:12.479 makes the hazards matter in a in a different way. 1:22:12.680 --> 1:22:15.479 And I think that you know, as we started this 1:22:15.920 --> 1:22:18.240 segment with like the cost thing, like how do we 1:22:19.600 --> 1:22:23.280 how do we figure out how to you know, reduce 1:22:23.520 --> 1:22:27.320 the cost of bunkers is definitely the most expensive part 1:22:27.400 --> 1:22:28.880 of Northeast maintenance. Right. 1:22:29.040 --> 1:22:35.599 It seems like just in general, the every every club 1:22:35.720 --> 1:22:39.840 and every maintenance team and like this is you know, 1:22:39.960 --> 1:22:43.000 this is what the club ass and that's what you know, 1:22:43.200 --> 1:22:47.720 like a superintendent does is like the you know, and 1:22:47.800 --> 1:22:51.720 I think like the practice, like you know, doctors try 1:22:51.760 --> 1:22:55.400 and make surgeries more efficient and more successful, like the 1:22:55.439 --> 1:22:59.919 success right right, Superintendents like are trying to make conditions 1:23:00.080 --> 1:23:03.840 more consistent and more and better yea, you know, more 1:23:03.880 --> 1:23:08.120 optimal year over year. I think like one of the 1:23:08.240 --> 1:23:11.840 things that's that's happened, especially like I noticed it from 1:23:11.920 --> 1:23:14.800 when I was a kid, especially like and you see 1:23:14.840 --> 1:23:19.360 it at like the municipal level, like municipal golf maintenance. 1:23:19.840 --> 1:23:26.120 The level of maintenance at municipal courses today is world's 1:23:26.160 --> 1:23:29.639 better than twenty years ago, like war leaps and bounds, 1:23:29.760 --> 1:23:32.639 Like I don't see the spongy greens that I grew 1:23:32.720 --> 1:23:35.599 up playing where a wedge would bounce like twelve feet 1:23:35.640 --> 1:23:38.360 in there, but the green was super soft because it's 1:23:38.439 --> 1:23:42.439 just all thatch, right, Like those those days are kind 1:23:42.479 --> 1:23:47.080 of like a way like gone. But like one of 1:23:47.120 --> 1:23:50.720 the things that's happened is that this like strive for 1:23:50.880 --> 1:23:57.439 perfection across the property has just created this insane cost 1:23:57.600 --> 1:24:02.680 basis for the sport. And that like that to me 1:24:03.240 --> 1:24:05.840 is like if and I wanted to ask this question, 1:24:06.760 --> 1:24:10.040 if you were going to attempt to do a project 1:24:11.160 --> 1:24:15.760 as cheap as possible and run a affordable, really good, 1:24:15.920 --> 1:24:20.080 let's just call it a doke six golf course, how 1:24:20.120 --> 1:24:22.679 would you what would be the things that you would 1:24:22.800 --> 1:24:29.640 stress and an attempt to do in order to in 1:24:29.880 --> 1:24:32.800 order if you even thought you could the realm of 1:24:32.880 --> 1:24:36.519 possibility of having sub one hundred and fifty a dollar 1:24:36.680 --> 1:24:42.040 golf and a really good golf course in a you 1:24:42.120 --> 1:24:44.280 know at this point in time that had to do 1:24:44.360 --> 1:24:45.080 a big project. 1:24:46.200 --> 1:24:50.120 I mean, if you have to get it to that number, 1:24:50.400 --> 1:24:52.519 I think probably the key is you have to build 1:24:52.520 --> 1:24:56.320 it yourself, right, like you have to take a little 1:24:56.320 --> 1:25:01.160 bit longer, You have to almost field it with your 1:25:02.080 --> 1:25:08.320 maintenance team, and while a lot less on on the 1:25:08.400 --> 1:25:11.479 outside labor and you know, the more and then if 1:25:11.520 --> 1:25:13.840 you have to certainly if you have to purchase materials 1:25:13.960 --> 1:25:16.880 for that project, right, if it's not blessed with sand, 1:25:17.280 --> 1:25:19.479 then you have to reduce the labor portion. And then 1:25:19.520 --> 1:25:21.680 you have to do it kind of yourself. And you 1:25:21.800 --> 1:25:25.600 can do some things to cut out the materials that 1:25:25.640 --> 1:25:28.479 you're unwilling to spend. So do you decide to do 1:25:28.800 --> 1:25:33.320 significantly less spunkers that would probably be truly on the table. 1:25:33.360 --> 1:25:35.760 The more short grass you do, the higher you know 1:25:35.920 --> 1:25:37.759 you're going to have to maintain that at a certain 1:25:37.840 --> 1:25:43.400 standard going forward. You know, I think there's a lot 1:25:43.439 --> 1:25:46.439 of options you come to, the size of greens certainly matters, 1:25:46.560 --> 1:25:50.240 especially if you're purchasing mix, but those add more and 1:25:50.360 --> 1:25:55.799 more locations at you know, faster and faster highly desired speeds. 1:25:55.800 --> 1:25:59.200 If you're looking to do a public course or whatever 1:25:59.280 --> 1:26:01.080 and make a bunch of you're gonna need big enough 1:26:01.120 --> 1:26:03.800 greens where you can have you know, forty thousand rounds 1:26:03.800 --> 1:26:06.400 a year or whatever on it and have six different holocags. 1:26:06.400 --> 1:26:08.519 So you need really big greens at the speech that 1:26:08.600 --> 1:26:11.799 you want. And that's something that like you know, probably 1:26:12.080 --> 1:26:15.000 is somewhere else down on my list here of things. 1:26:15.080 --> 1:26:18.519 But like you're gonna have to make some decisions like 1:26:18.720 --> 1:26:21.800 site based. But I guess the thing is you got 1:26:21.960 --> 1:26:28.439 to prioritize which materials matter the most and then which 1:26:29.000 --> 1:26:31.839 for for that given sight. It could be a hilly property, 1:26:31.920 --> 1:26:33.479 it could like, you know, how can you use the 1:26:33.600 --> 1:26:36.240 land to not have to do as many bunkers to 1:26:36.360 --> 1:26:38.759 do things like that to create you know, use natural 1:26:38.840 --> 1:26:41.840 features to create strategy and hazards and that sort of thing. 1:26:42.680 --> 1:26:44.559 But then I think again, you're gonna have to figure 1:26:44.560 --> 1:26:47.639 out probably how to do as much grasping on your own, 1:26:48.000 --> 1:26:52.320 how to do as much you know, shaping and just 1:26:52.439 --> 1:26:56.560 general construction and drainage on your own, because you know, 1:26:56.760 --> 1:26:59.439 you're always gonna have to like you need shaping equipment, 1:26:59.560 --> 1:27:03.320 you need people, you know, shape architects, you need irrigation 1:27:03.920 --> 1:27:06.320 you know, it's like you get to like greens mix 1:27:06.600 --> 1:27:09.519 and the method of how much drainage you're going to 1:27:09.560 --> 1:27:12.320 put under it, which mix you're going to buy, you know, 1:27:13.080 --> 1:27:15.880 you're probably you know, time is going to relate to 1:27:16.000 --> 1:27:19.200 seating and sodding and how long do you need to 1:27:19.280 --> 1:27:21.959 take to get it to open and standards and varieties 1:27:22.040 --> 1:27:24.040 and things. And then you know if you saw and 1:27:24.080 --> 1:27:25.599 then you got to roll it out and that takes 1:27:26.560 --> 1:27:29.559 people and labor, money and dollars. So you're probably seeding 1:27:29.880 --> 1:27:31.720 and now you're saving a lot, but like it's not 1:27:31.800 --> 1:27:33.679 going to open as fast. You got to do more things. 1:27:33.760 --> 1:27:37.919 So I mean you could go through everything, t specs, 1:27:38.520 --> 1:27:41.200 we use a lot of different things, like you know, 1:27:42.760 --> 1:27:45.880 it just you'd have to you'd have to do a lot. 1:27:48.720 --> 1:27:50.640 You'd have to do figure out how to build a 1:27:50.680 --> 1:27:52.679 team to do it a lot on your own, which 1:27:52.760 --> 1:27:55.960 is pretty rare. I guess uh. 1:27:56.439 --> 1:28:00.760 It's fascic. It seems like seems like Greens is one 1:28:00.880 --> 1:28:07.320 area where you if you keep speeds down, it can 1:28:07.439 --> 1:28:10.960 save you considerable amount of money. But if you keep 1:28:11.040 --> 1:28:17.080 speeds down for the public golfer, they think they suck. Yeah, 1:28:17.920 --> 1:28:20.479 It's like it's almost like a double edged store, like 1:28:21.040 --> 1:28:26.040 there's a no win situation. Yeah, you know, and then 1:28:26.080 --> 1:28:28.160 your greens have to be bigger because you have less 1:28:28.200 --> 1:28:30.240 pen whole locations available with. 1:28:30.360 --> 1:28:41.120 Slope correct Yeah, and you know, I I there's probably 1:28:41.200 --> 1:28:44.519 some places where you can do this. Obviously, it's something 1:28:44.600 --> 1:28:47.519 that you and many people have talked about for many years. 1:28:47.600 --> 1:28:51.360 But like if I was a superintendent at a highly 1:28:51.479 --> 1:28:56.120 regarded golf club in this area, like and you had 1:28:56.560 --> 1:28:58.920 maybe you were younger, had like you don't want to 1:28:59.000 --> 1:29:01.000 be known as the club with the slow greens, so 1:29:01.080 --> 1:29:03.479 like you're probably not going to get the next job, 1:29:03.720 --> 1:29:05.800 Like that's a little bit. You're going to have a 1:29:05.880 --> 1:29:08.360 quick change. Someone's gonna be like, oh, these greens stink 1:29:08.360 --> 1:29:11.000 because the member maybe not get it. And then and 1:29:11.040 --> 1:29:13.080 then you're going to be packing up and looking for 1:29:13.160 --> 1:29:15.280 the next thing. I think it's very very difficult, and 1:29:15.360 --> 1:29:19.639 it takes certain like a real cultural buy in from 1:29:19.640 --> 1:29:24.000 a certain place to do that, and it's it's rare, 1:29:25.120 --> 1:29:28.840 and it's very difficult, and it's something that comes came 1:29:28.920 --> 1:29:33.080 up really pointedly in one of my master plan projects, 1:29:33.200 --> 1:29:38.720 and it just keeps coming up. But you know, the 1:29:39.600 --> 1:29:42.280 you're going to see more and more and more Golden 1:29:42.320 --> 1:29:45.439 Age greens get rebuilt over the next few years, you know, 1:29:46.720 --> 1:29:49.559 without a doubt, for a variety of reasons, whether it's 1:29:49.640 --> 1:29:54.519 the speeds, whether it's the improved technology with GPS, total 1:29:54.600 --> 1:29:57.559 stations and the scanning and all that sort of stuff 1:29:57.600 --> 1:30:01.280 that we can do, you know. And then I think 1:30:01.320 --> 1:30:07.320 it's just continued pressure from you see this great club, 1:30:07.400 --> 1:30:11.320 that great club. You know, there's how many of you know, 1:30:12.000 --> 1:30:15.360 there's a lot you know, everybody's you know, top restoration 1:30:15.640 --> 1:30:18.719 architect Like you see a lot of greens being rebuilt 1:30:18.760 --> 1:30:23.280 at those clubs, like the top end, and it trickles. 1:30:24.280 --> 1:30:27.960 What's fascinating. And this is where I think that the 1:30:28.240 --> 1:30:32.720 powers that run pro golf and golf in general are 1:30:33.320 --> 1:30:36.160 have their head completely in the sand. Is around green 1:30:36.200 --> 1:30:41.439 speeds and the idea that a fast green is more 1:30:41.520 --> 1:30:48.280 challenging than a slow slope green is bananas. So and 1:30:48.400 --> 1:30:52.400 the other part of this podcast, Joseph and I talk 1:30:52.439 --> 1:30:56.479 about the record scoring at Kapalua. Do you know when 1:30:58.720 --> 1:31:03.120 scores under sixty I've exploded at Cappelua. Can you just 1:31:03.520 --> 1:31:08.160 venture to guess the year that these these record scoreres 1:31:08.680 --> 1:31:11.120 just happened? To explode at Cappelua. 1:31:12.640 --> 1:31:15.639 I would imagine it's the pro v one changeover right. 1:31:16.520 --> 1:31:20.719 The year after Core and Crunshaw softened all eighteen greens. 1:31:21.680 --> 1:31:22.040 There you go. 1:31:23.720 --> 1:31:26.760 It turns out when when you don't have to, you know, 1:31:26.880 --> 1:31:31.200 when you take one factor out of putting slope, when 1:31:31.280 --> 1:31:34.120 you take one of the two factors their speed and 1:31:34.200 --> 1:31:36.240 their slope, and when you take one of the two 1:31:36.320 --> 1:31:39.639 factors out, putting gets a whole lot easier and players 1:31:39.640 --> 1:31:42.479 shoot lower scores. Who would have guessed? But I don't 1:31:42.560 --> 1:31:48.000 understand how like the us GA, the PGA Tour, the 1:31:48.080 --> 1:31:51.920 PGA there, the RNA seems to be the only ones 1:31:52.200 --> 1:31:57.160 that understand that slope and interesting whole locations is far 1:31:57.360 --> 1:32:01.559 superior to smooth, fast and flat greens. 1:32:03.760 --> 1:32:09.840 Yeah. I do believe that the bigger stroke putting stroke 1:32:09.920 --> 1:32:15.559 you have to take, that is a greater sign of skill. Right, 1:32:15.640 --> 1:32:17.559 the slower you have to take a bigger stroke versus 1:32:17.680 --> 1:32:20.920 just nudging it on the line. I do think that 1:32:21.120 --> 1:32:27.000 that proves who is a better putter. You know, there's 1:32:27.160 --> 1:32:31.200 more factors in the whole thing, right, the slope, the speed, 1:32:31.360 --> 1:32:39.960 the lines. I totally agree, you know, by the same 1:32:40.120 --> 1:32:44.080 like I do I you know, I have a lot 1:32:44.160 --> 1:32:48.759 of fun playing some greens that are very very fast, 1:32:49.840 --> 1:32:53.040 you know, but I like a little bit of the 1:32:53.160 --> 1:32:57.960 balance between. You know, you're never going to see a 1:32:58.080 --> 1:33:03.120 twelve or thirteen at you know, BALI neil my home course, 1:33:03.160 --> 1:33:05.479 So I'll just continue to reference sentence my home It's 1:33:05.520 --> 1:33:10.600 easy versus you know. So I've played some of the 1:33:10.680 --> 1:33:13.920 courses I work at. One of them had the greens 1:33:13.960 --> 1:33:16.280 rowing like way faster than even the US Open. It 1:33:16.520 --> 1:33:18.840 was the firmst fast I mean, we had look in 1:33:19.120 --> 1:33:21.720 New York this year. In New Jersey we had like 1:33:22.000 --> 1:33:25.680 sixty seventy days where it did not rain, It did 1:33:25.800 --> 1:33:30.439 not rain at all, like zero. It was crazy. And 1:33:30.720 --> 1:33:34.479 we had optimum temperatures once you get to October where 1:33:34.640 --> 1:33:36.840 you're not getting super hot at night, where the greens 1:33:36.840 --> 1:33:40.639 are cooling, and it if you wanted to have the fastest, 1:33:40.720 --> 1:33:45.640 firmest turf in like this was the greatest like combination 1:33:45.960 --> 1:33:49.400 of all factors you could have had this fall. And 1:33:49.600 --> 1:33:54.920 so some places absolutely scent it and it was wild 1:33:55.120 --> 1:33:58.200 and I think, you know, I think when the conditions 1:33:58.240 --> 1:34:00.640 provide for it, I think it was pretty neat and 1:34:00.800 --> 1:34:04.320 you could see wish greens could still you know, uh, 1:34:04.720 --> 1:34:07.639 and courses could still handle it and still be fun 1:34:07.680 --> 1:34:12.320 to play. But man, like I can tell you there's 1:34:12.400 --> 1:34:15.120 plenty of them that you couldn't even get halfway there. 1:34:15.280 --> 1:34:17.760 And then it becomes I have one place and it's 1:34:17.880 --> 1:34:20.200 I've never even changed the cup for a month, like 1:34:20.320 --> 1:34:23.040 if it's going to be like that, so you know, 1:34:23.240 --> 1:34:29.240 it's it's it's I think it can be seasonal for 1:34:29.360 --> 1:34:32.040 the most part is probably the wise way to think 1:34:32.080 --> 1:34:37.360 about it. I think it's fun on occasion, but you know, 1:34:37.840 --> 1:34:41.000 I wouldn't want it have to, you know, manage it 1:34:41.240 --> 1:34:43.640 like every day like that if you were expected to 1:34:43.760 --> 1:34:49.360 produce just world record US Open speeds in sticky areas 1:34:49.400 --> 1:34:53.040 around here in the middle of summer, like you definitely sleep. 1:34:53.960 --> 1:34:57.960 The other aspect of this is like we're chasing it 1:34:58.080 --> 1:35:03.080 seems like the whole industry is chasing homogeneous golf conditions, 1:35:03.880 --> 1:35:09.240 and to me, like the whole reason golf's appealing is 1:35:09.320 --> 1:35:13.160 that you never hit the same shots. You never hit 1:35:14.080 --> 1:35:16.800 one shots, never the same as the other ever in 1:35:16.880 --> 1:35:21.640 your life. Ever, because the winds are slightly different, they 1:35:21.680 --> 1:35:25.320 air slightly different, the turf is slightly different, no matter 1:35:25.400 --> 1:35:28.200 what even a shot off a tee, it will you'll 1:35:28.320 --> 1:35:31.880 never hit the like. That's the beauty of golf. The 1:35:31.920 --> 1:35:34.640 beauty of golf courses is that they're all different and 1:35:34.720 --> 1:35:36.080 they all have unique settings. 1:35:36.800 --> 1:35:37.000 Yep. 1:35:37.720 --> 1:35:40.680 And I think there should be like if you if 1:35:40.720 --> 1:35:43.360 you wanted to get into like the ideals or how 1:35:43.479 --> 1:35:45.920 I view the game. You people can disagree with me 1:35:46.000 --> 1:35:50.519 about this, but like, every golf course should be its 1:35:50.680 --> 1:35:53.599 unique self. And if if you're a golf course because 1:35:53.640 --> 1:35:59.760 of slope and and you know, y greens, green cans 1:35:59.760 --> 1:36:04.000 struc it can accommodate no faster than ten, ye, then 1:36:04.040 --> 1:36:08.320 that's you're unique. You're of a one of one. But 1:36:08.560 --> 1:36:12.840 as we as we continue to soften greens and spend, 1:36:13.120 --> 1:36:15.760 you know, spend the hundreds of thousands of dollars to 1:36:15.880 --> 1:36:19.679 soften greens just to then turn around and spend hundreds 1:36:19.720 --> 1:36:22.360 of more thousands of dollars to keep the greens faster 1:36:23.760 --> 1:36:27.360 and then rip away the uniqueness of said things like 1:36:27.479 --> 1:36:31.280 this is idiotic in my mind. This is this is 1:36:31.439 --> 1:36:33.800 you're just chasing your tail around and you're just gonna 1:36:33.840 --> 1:36:37.439 continue to soften the greens and flatten the greens until 1:36:37.479 --> 1:36:40.760 we're just like you see this on the tour, the 1:36:40.920 --> 1:36:44.760 tour and professional golf resemble more is more and more 1:36:44.800 --> 1:36:50.519 resembling darts every day, and it would be such a 1:36:50.600 --> 1:36:54.320 shame if the recreational game in the in clubs that 1:36:54.560 --> 1:36:58.160 never are going to host a pro tournament continue to 1:36:58.439 --> 1:37:02.600 try and chase after what is happening at major championship 1:37:02.680 --> 1:37:04.639 venues and professional golf venues. 1:37:08.680 --> 1:37:13.400 I I just have so many different little things here 1:37:13.520 --> 1:37:20.360 there to kind of react to that. You know, when 1:37:20.400 --> 1:37:23.200 you play your modern equipment, right, it's a driver web 1:37:23.280 --> 1:37:26.679 show for you. Yeah, pretty much everywhere everywhere. 1:37:26.760 --> 1:37:28.880 You know, I have to play, I have to play 1:37:29.000 --> 1:37:31.080 seven seven seventy. 1:37:32.120 --> 1:37:34.600 The trajectory stuff in the way like on top of that, 1:37:34.760 --> 1:37:37.560 Like I don't really have that at my length, but 1:37:38.080 --> 1:37:40.080 you know, Nick co works for me does, like the 1:37:40.160 --> 1:37:47.200 desk guys do. It's interesting, but you know, uh, I 1:37:47.320 --> 1:37:49.680 think a lot of what you're talking about with the 1:37:49.840 --> 1:37:54.960 greens is correct. But I think in general, one thing 1:37:56.040 --> 1:38:00.680 I have really found through my work is and you're 1:38:00.680 --> 1:38:04.439 talking about clubs being true to their unique self. I 1:38:04.560 --> 1:38:08.760 think that's like the most important thing because not all 1:38:08.840 --> 1:38:11.560 of my work also is restorative. Some of it is 1:38:11.960 --> 1:38:16.120 very much a renovation. And you know a lot of 1:38:16.240 --> 1:38:19.000 times you have unless all of a sudden you get 1:38:19.200 --> 1:38:21.559 hired and they want to do a project because something 1:38:21.640 --> 1:38:24.519 happened and the greens got smoked and they're just dead. 1:38:24.640 --> 1:38:27.240 Maybe chemicals spray this and that other thing. But like 1:38:27.400 --> 1:38:31.160 most of the time, you don't have three hundred, four 1:38:31.280 --> 1:38:34.960 hundred whatever it is. Members. They join a place because 1:38:35.000 --> 1:38:38.720 they hate it and want to start over. They join 1:38:38.800 --> 1:38:41.720 a place a club, and every right, everybody loves their 1:38:41.760 --> 1:38:44.680 home club, no matter how good you or I might 1:38:44.760 --> 1:38:47.600 think it is. Everybody loves their home course. And you 1:38:47.640 --> 1:38:49.080 don't want to tell them it's the. 1:38:49.240 --> 1:38:53.480 Why they spend one hundred thousand dollars to join, correct. 1:38:53.280 --> 1:38:57.880 And then you got to spend this and so to 1:38:58.680 --> 1:39:00.920 Now I joined for this, and now I want to 1:39:00.920 --> 1:39:04.280 spend the same amount blowing it to spit like. That's 1:39:04.400 --> 1:39:07.960 very rare. And there's some cases where yes, that might 1:39:08.240 --> 1:39:11.960 that might be the thing. And we've seen, uh, you 1:39:12.040 --> 1:39:15.559 know some of that. And I do to a degree 1:39:18.280 --> 1:39:23.720 renovate with the pretty heavy buildozer Blade too. But you know, 1:39:24.240 --> 1:39:28.120 you have to figure out a way with the architecture, 1:39:28.360 --> 1:39:32.519 with the proposal, with the whole thing is to show 1:39:32.760 --> 1:39:35.960 a lot of times that like, I love you love 1:39:36.040 --> 1:39:38.560 this golf course. I love a lot, a lot a 1:39:38.600 --> 1:39:41.040 lot of things about this golf course. I think we 1:39:41.200 --> 1:39:43.920 both agree. Is the reason why you know you're talking 1:39:44.080 --> 1:39:46.080 today is because we both agree there's things that can 1:39:46.120 --> 1:39:48.519 be better about it. But how do we find the 1:39:48.600 --> 1:39:52.879 way to kind of walk that balance? You know, it's 1:39:53.000 --> 1:39:55.880 an interesting thing at and it's different at every place, 1:39:58.400 --> 1:40:01.880 so you know, it's like most clubs also don't have 1:40:02.280 --> 1:40:05.439 eighteen greens that are as severe as like you described. 1:40:05.479 --> 1:40:08.200 Maybe they have a handful or a couple or you 1:40:08.280 --> 1:40:10.439 want to just so then then you're like, how do 1:40:10.479 --> 1:40:12.679 you how are you matching the profiles of the greens? 1:40:12.680 --> 1:40:15.200 How are you creating consistent you know, you know you 1:40:15.280 --> 1:40:20.320 don't want you could have native stuff, you could have USGA, 1:40:20.479 --> 1:40:22.080 you could have this, that and the other thing, And 1:40:22.160 --> 1:40:25.920 then managing it becomes difficult and there's always a degree 1:40:26.000 --> 1:40:29.080 of hey, you know, I know this. You know the 1:40:29.200 --> 1:40:33.040 boys know, don't don't roll that one. We're better. Just 1:40:33.120 --> 1:40:36.240 don't roll that one. We're gonna get a lot of 1:40:36.280 --> 1:40:38.160 phone calls if we roll that when we're put that 1:40:38.320 --> 1:40:40.600 pin there, when we do roll like if we're going 1:40:40.680 --> 1:40:42.400 to do then you can't do that. So, like there's 1:40:42.439 --> 1:40:45.680 a lot of that when you spend time and like 1:40:45.840 --> 1:40:48.280 we try to tweak it and you try to do 1:40:48.479 --> 1:40:53.240 things to make it play relatively like that. But yeah, 1:40:53.280 --> 1:40:55.720 there's lots of new in doing the specs of it 1:40:55.880 --> 1:40:58.120 and like create like how do you walk the line 1:40:58.200 --> 1:41:04.080 of all this. It's very tricky and it's really unique 1:41:04.120 --> 1:41:07.519 to each each place, and you got to do a 1:41:07.600 --> 1:41:09.400 lot of listening and you got to do a lot 1:41:09.439 --> 1:41:11.320 of washing golf and a lot of spending time with 1:41:11.400 --> 1:41:15.439 the superintendents and the pros and you know, think about 1:41:16.520 --> 1:41:19.000 the cost and the culture and everything and try to 1:41:19.040 --> 1:41:21.920 come up with the best ideas for you know, three 1:41:22.040 --> 1:41:24.320 hundred and fifty people for the next thirty years. 1:41:24.479 --> 1:41:29.160 Really, right, what's the next thing? We've talked about costs enough, 1:41:30.040 --> 1:41:30.840 what's the next thing? 1:41:31.120 --> 1:41:33.719 Well, I mean, to be honest, we kind of dipped 1:41:33.760 --> 1:41:38.880 a lot of into I kind of had this you know, 1:41:39.200 --> 1:41:43.680 mini topics within the restoration renovation market and trends I 1:41:43.800 --> 1:41:47.760 see here, and I mean we've definitely ticked off a 1:41:47.840 --> 1:41:51.320 lot of these boxes with green speeds, with GPS, total stations, 1:41:51.360 --> 1:41:54.120 with hull locations and moving things, you know, having enough 1:41:54.200 --> 1:41:56.920 you can move it around for the increased play. Every 1:41:56.960 --> 1:42:01.080 club has the detailed planning and stuff that kind of 1:42:01.520 --> 1:42:05.240 you know, you know, and how I guess if you 1:42:05.280 --> 1:42:08.439 want to like really shift, There's a few other things 1:42:08.520 --> 1:42:14.240 into that, but one thing a little bit different, and 1:42:14.360 --> 1:42:18.519 maybe it does factor into the cost and the demand 1:42:18.680 --> 1:42:23.320 and just how my region and stuff works. What I've seen, 1:42:23.560 --> 1:42:26.639 like industry wide, I think a little bit or certainly 1:42:26.680 --> 1:42:29.599 in this country and definitely a bit internationally as well, 1:42:29.760 --> 1:42:34.840 is like the popularity we're gonna a Balie Neil member 1:42:35.120 --> 1:42:37.760 is talking, so take it with a grain of salt. 1:42:38.640 --> 1:42:44.200 The popularity of the new like remote destination clubs is 1:42:45.680 --> 1:42:51.360 wild to me. There are new golf clubs in the 1:42:51.560 --> 1:42:57.639 furthest remote places constantly seemingly opening right now. There will 1:42:58.040 --> 1:43:01.280 most of them look incredible. There's you know, the guys 1:43:01.320 --> 1:43:03.040 I used to work for doing most of the work. 1:43:03.240 --> 1:43:04.960 I know they're going to be great. But it's just 1:43:05.120 --> 1:43:07.599 really interesting to me to see how many of these 1:43:07.680 --> 1:43:11.240 there are, how many that are coming online, how many 1:43:11.320 --> 1:43:14.200 of these like how are they going to age over 1:43:15.160 --> 1:43:19.360 ten years, fifteen years, thirty years, you know, even more 1:43:19.400 --> 1:43:26.080 than that, you know, I think it's interesting, you know, 1:43:26.560 --> 1:43:28.880 I just we kind of mentioned, like I think there's 1:43:28.920 --> 1:43:34.280 certainly a market for cheaper urban golf because of how 1:43:34.400 --> 1:43:37.960 expensive the current urban golf isn't my area, you've seen 1:43:38.080 --> 1:43:43.040 some more locations. South Carolina obviously seems to be a 1:43:43.200 --> 1:43:46.240 real hotbed over the last years. Florida, parts of Florida, 1:43:46.400 --> 1:43:49.880 not all of Florida, but parts are wild. But you know, 1:43:50.520 --> 1:43:52.519 there were times and the only reason I was able 1:43:52.600 --> 1:43:55.200 to get into you know, BALI new is because like 1:43:55.760 --> 1:43:59.000 they had, they had tough years for a stretch, they 1:43:59.040 --> 1:44:01.920 went through some really hard times. And then also one 1:44:02.000 --> 1:44:05.879 thing is like someone on the inside, it's really difficult 1:44:06.040 --> 1:44:08.960 to live at these places for long periods of time 1:44:09.120 --> 1:44:11.799 and work. If you're an employee, it takes a special 1:44:11.840 --> 1:44:14.719 person to want to go to the middle of nowhere 1:44:14.880 --> 1:44:19.439 and raise a family ninety minutes from a Walmart, you know, 1:44:19.720 --> 1:44:23.360 at at minimum right, So like not, it's how are 1:44:23.400 --> 1:44:27.000 you going to continue to find that many people? Quality superintendents, 1:44:27.240 --> 1:44:32.720 quality labor assistance, business people, food people like all of 1:44:32.800 --> 1:44:38.560 this for for decades And that's something that like, you know, 1:44:40.560 --> 1:44:42.519 I think about a little bit and I wonder when 1:44:42.720 --> 1:44:45.680 you know, you have not just these private clubs that 1:44:45.800 --> 1:44:49.840 are doing it at you know, like we talked about before, 1:44:49.960 --> 1:44:52.360 probably five x the cost that was, you know, ten 1:44:52.439 --> 1:44:56.320 years ago. But you'll, you know, like you also have 1:44:56.360 --> 1:44:59.400 all the resorts they're doing it at these places, and 1:44:59.520 --> 1:45:02.559 you can just rent a bed and not be stuck 1:45:02.680 --> 1:45:04.960 to that bed for the next twenty years. And you 1:45:05.040 --> 1:45:08.799 could shop around and go to you know, this resort 1:45:08.840 --> 1:45:11.400 in Florida, this one in Wisconsin, this one in all 1:45:11.439 --> 1:45:13.519 over the place and do ten trips a you're to 1:45:13.600 --> 1:45:16.639 different places versus go to the same you know, three 1:45:16.800 --> 1:45:19.960 for the same one at that same initiation. So it's interesting, 1:45:20.040 --> 1:45:20.479 I think, and. 1:45:20.640 --> 1:45:23.040 I think there's a lot to unpack here, and I 1:45:23.120 --> 1:45:26.000 think like something that doesn't hasn't really ever been talked 1:45:26.000 --> 1:45:33.679 about his is the history of destination golf in America, 1:45:34.160 --> 1:45:37.720 or just a history of destination golf really as an 1:45:37.720 --> 1:45:43.519 American and destination golf in America really was like you 1:45:43.680 --> 1:45:47.280 go to a resort with your wife and kids and 1:45:47.360 --> 1:45:52.120 you play golf, or you know, you go to a 1:45:52.240 --> 1:45:55.439 resort with your partner and you play golf and there's 1:45:55.520 --> 1:45:59.200 a spa and there's you know, dinner and everything, and 1:45:59.280 --> 1:46:05.160 there's a couple. It's a couple's type thing that I 1:46:05.360 --> 1:46:09.160 almost want to say that like an entire entirely new 1:46:09.479 --> 1:46:12.400 like where you went on the just strictly golf trip 1:46:13.040 --> 1:46:16.360 was the UK. That was like the place where you 1:46:16.479 --> 1:46:19.200 went on the strictly golf trip, but there was still 1:46:19.439 --> 1:46:22.559 in the UK, there's still things for a non golfing 1:46:22.640 --> 1:46:28.639 partner to do. There's towns, there's restaurants, there's shopping. There 1:46:28.760 --> 1:46:31.759 was a whole new version of golf that was created 1:46:31.800 --> 1:46:35.720 with Bandon Dunes, and it was like, I have a 1:46:35.840 --> 1:46:41.120 friend he told me this great story. He went to 1:46:41.240 --> 1:46:43.960 Bandon Dune's like the first year it opened or the 1:46:44.080 --> 1:46:47.240 second year it opened. His wife actually told me this story. 1:46:48.160 --> 1:46:51.599 His wife does not play golf and she was pregnant 1:46:52.800 --> 1:46:55.759 and he's like, it's a resort, there's can be stuff 1:46:55.800 --> 1:47:02.120 for you to do, and she found herself abandoned with 1:47:02.360 --> 1:47:05.240 nothing to do. It was because like that was the 1:47:05.360 --> 1:47:10.639 way destination golf worked. It was like, yeah, there's spa, 1:47:10.880 --> 1:47:14.000 there's all these other activities, there's a pool, there's this. Yeah, 1:47:14.840 --> 1:47:18.040 and I think like what we're seeing with the like 1:47:18.200 --> 1:47:20.920 everybody's like how can this sustain? How can this sustain 1:47:21.640 --> 1:47:26.800 Banded Dunes and then Sand Valley and Cabot and all 1:47:26.880 --> 1:47:31.280 these things they created. Banded Dunes really created a new 1:47:31.600 --> 1:47:35.800 version of golf in America, like the idea that you 1:47:36.000 --> 1:47:40.920 go somewhere just and it's just golf and it's very remote, 1:47:42.080 --> 1:47:44.280 you know, and maybe sand Hills had a piece of 1:47:44.360 --> 1:47:48.800 this too, but then this is now like it's the 1:47:48.920 --> 1:47:51.280 same thing with public golf, right, people go to a 1:47:51.320 --> 1:47:54.320 public golf course, and I think what what these destination 1:47:54.439 --> 1:47:57.519 clubs are is the people that have gone to Sand Valley, 1:47:58.080 --> 1:48:02.160 gone to Banded Dunes, and they they walk away and say, like, 1:48:02.760 --> 1:48:05.400 I really like this. I you know, it would be 1:48:05.479 --> 1:48:07.640 cool if there was a more intimate experience and I 1:48:07.840 --> 1:48:11.639 and then I get this home course, right, the ease 1:48:11.720 --> 1:48:15.240 of booking, the all the conveniences. It's the same thing 1:48:15.960 --> 1:48:20.080 as a local country club to the municipal except you know, 1:48:20.240 --> 1:48:22.559 Bandon is still an out of the world and San 1:48:22.680 --> 1:48:25.120 Bailey is still an out of the world experience for anybody. 1:48:25.479 --> 1:48:30.599 But these private clubs are effectively, you know, the private 1:48:30.800 --> 1:48:33.800 version of the golf that Bandon created. I don't know, 1:48:33.920 --> 1:48:40.679 that's just kind of my theory. As you we're talking, Yeah, 1:48:43.800 --> 1:48:49.000 I guess. I think the other things that we that 1:48:49.240 --> 1:48:51.439 has to be has to be talked about is like 1:48:52.120 --> 1:48:57.679 the economic factors of the last four to five years 1:48:57.960 --> 1:49:02.920 and the economy. The extraordinary wealth that was created by 1:49:02.960 --> 1:49:08.800 the upper class during COVID is another aspect of this. 1:49:12.080 --> 1:49:16.559 Yeah, I think because people it's easier to fund these 1:49:16.680 --> 1:49:20.599 things more than ever. Right. I think what I'm interested 1:49:20.800 --> 1:49:23.760 is is now that they're all funded and they're all 1:49:23.920 --> 1:49:28.280 popping up, and I don't know how successful some of 1:49:28.320 --> 1:49:32.519 the membership sales have been. There's certainly some that are thriving. 1:49:32.760 --> 1:49:34.479 I don't know how all of them. I don't know 1:49:34.520 --> 1:49:36.400 how much it matters to some of the guys that 1:49:36.479 --> 1:49:41.559 are funding it, quite frankly, and that's their thing, Like, Oh, 1:49:41.640 --> 1:49:48.519 I'm really most interested in twenty years from now, ten, fifteen, thirty, 1:49:48.720 --> 1:49:52.519 Like you know, what's going to happen at that stage, 1:49:53.280 --> 1:49:59.400 because right now there is I don't see any reason 1:49:59.479 --> 1:50:02.280 why it would and continue for at least a little 1:50:02.320 --> 1:50:07.000 while longer, like the vast majority of you know, the 1:50:07.080 --> 1:50:11.120 rest of my stuff seems like you know, and yeah, 1:50:11.280 --> 1:50:14.960 but I guess the two places that occurred to me 1:50:15.120 --> 1:50:18.040 as it were, here's here's the question that don't fall 1:50:18.200 --> 1:50:22.680 that our family ish town ish more to do than 1:50:22.880 --> 1:50:23.519 just golf. 1:50:23.760 --> 1:50:23.920 You know. 1:50:24.080 --> 1:50:28.599 The stuff was the two uh ones that that us 1:50:29.160 --> 1:50:33.080 picked and that's Pinehurst and Pebble have like the most family, 1:50:33.800 --> 1:50:39.439 non super golf specific things along with like those. 1:50:39.360 --> 1:50:42.519 Are but those are that's the old style, But those 1:50:42.560 --> 1:50:45.840 are that's the old style. That's the like, think about 1:50:45.920 --> 1:50:49.759 the disruption that abandon caused to Pinehurst. That's the reason 1:50:49.880 --> 1:50:52.640 Pinehurst did the renovation to Pineherst number two. So the 1:50:52.720 --> 1:50:56.439 reason that they built number ten, the reason gil a 1:50:56.520 --> 1:51:00.360 project that you worked on, renovated number four, you know, 1:51:00.560 --> 1:51:03.160 like it's the reason they have the cradle is all 1:51:03.320 --> 1:51:07.240 because of abandon and the disruption it cause, like everybody's 1:51:07.400 --> 1:51:09.799 like been like, how's this is this going to sustain? 1:51:10.080 --> 1:51:12.720 Is this going to sustain? And like I don't know 1:51:12.840 --> 1:51:16.280 the answer. I don't, but like one question I have, 1:51:18.240 --> 1:51:22.320 are we not even at the point of reaching the 1:51:22.800 --> 1:51:27.799 cap of of what demand is? Like Sand Valley Bandon 1:51:28.400 --> 1:51:34.439 have never had more demand. Ever, they've never had more demand. 1:51:34.640 --> 1:51:37.720 Land Man, a destination eighteen hole golf course, sold out 1:51:37.800 --> 1:51:41.760 tea times in an hour last week. The demand has 1:51:41.880 --> 1:51:44.240 never been higher. So part of me is wondering, like, 1:51:44.640 --> 1:51:48.040 have we not even reached the mass adoption in the 1:51:48.160 --> 1:51:52.800 golf market of the idea of a strictly golf trip. 1:51:53.280 --> 1:51:55.920 Like That's another question I have is like, have we 1:51:56.040 --> 1:52:00.080 not even reached the top of the mountain of of 1:52:01.200 --> 1:52:04.360 people experiencing this golf only trip. 1:52:05.280 --> 1:52:13.040 Yeah, so I think at the moment, maybe not. But 1:52:13.400 --> 1:52:16.000 what I think a lot of it comes back to 1:52:16.240 --> 1:52:23.080 the certainly in my region and we'll call it the 1:52:23.200 --> 1:52:25.880 majority of the East Coast. Even at that rate, WHENU 1:52:26.000 --> 1:52:30.240 factor in the cost of the Florida where it's very 1:52:30.320 --> 1:52:32.320 hard to find a game, the Northeast where it's very 1:52:32.360 --> 1:52:35.880 hard to find a club that you want to play 1:52:36.080 --> 1:52:41.400 every day, I think that's when it's that hard to 1:52:41.600 --> 1:52:45.439 get in somewhere, or a younger to then join, the cost, 1:52:45.560 --> 1:52:49.519 the waitlist, everything like that, it becomes, you know, it 1:52:49.640 --> 1:52:52.439 makes more sense to do this. But if you're able 1:52:52.600 --> 1:52:57.400 to create more of that local game, I think you 1:52:57.520 --> 1:53:00.320 could then start to pull a bit away from that. 1:53:01.280 --> 1:53:04.040 And I think some of it's an age thing for 1:53:04.439 --> 1:53:06.639 the people that are doing a lot of this, I think, 1:53:06.760 --> 1:53:10.719 and how that they can either do those trips versus 1:53:10.880 --> 1:53:15.479 the like you know, it just go play the weekly 1:53:15.680 --> 1:53:19.280 morning Sunday game and not be home with the kids 1:53:19.320 --> 1:53:21.200 for those. But I think it's easier to just like 1:53:21.640 --> 1:53:23.400 get away for a couple of days then do that. 1:53:23.680 --> 1:53:26.439 I think it's easier on the rest of the family 1:53:26.760 --> 1:53:30.360 to a degree. It's forever reason. It's like it's just 1:53:30.520 --> 1:53:33.400 how us, you know, millennial type people are able to 1:53:33.520 --> 1:53:36.120 explain that to our partners. Perhaps I don't know, but. 1:53:36.200 --> 1:53:38.720 I think, well, I think there's also the idea of 1:53:38.920 --> 1:53:41.960 like what you said, there's less junior memberships, Like some 1:53:42.160 --> 1:53:44.800 of this is that you're going to go for a 1:53:44.960 --> 1:53:48.240 forty year old a thirty eight year old. Yeah, the 1:53:49.280 --> 1:53:52.040 cost of a local club, especially if you're in New 1:53:52.120 --> 1:53:58.040 York or Chicago or San Francisco or wherever, Austin, Texas, Austin, Texas, 1:53:58.120 --> 1:54:01.759 you can't get into club. There's ten your weightless everywhere, 1:54:03.160 --> 1:54:06.040 you know, So like the these are actually clubs you 1:54:06.080 --> 1:54:09.680 could join, Like there there is like a part of 1:54:09.800 --> 1:54:13.000 this demand that is like wait, I could actually join 1:54:13.080 --> 1:54:15.599 a golf course. That could be great. Like you look 1:54:15.600 --> 1:54:18.880 at the people that joined Old Barnwell right or Tree 1:54:18.920 --> 1:54:23.599 Farm and these two these people joined a world class 1:54:24.080 --> 1:54:27.280 two world class golf courses that where like if you 1:54:27.360 --> 1:54:30.120 put Old Barnwell in a metro area, it would be 1:54:30.360 --> 1:54:33.040 a fifteen year wait list, and you know they might 1:54:33.120 --> 1:54:35.360 be you know, but like you know, you have this 1:54:35.560 --> 1:54:39.360 opportunity to get in at the ground floor, which has 1:54:39.480 --> 1:54:42.880 never happened, you know, never, There's never been more opportunities 1:54:42.960 --> 1:54:46.280 to get in to somewhere at the beginning. And there 1:54:46.400 --> 1:54:48.880 is like an aspect of that that I think is 1:54:48.920 --> 1:54:50.200 appealing to people as well. 1:54:51.640 --> 1:54:53.720 I agree, And you know, at the same time, like 1:54:53.800 --> 1:54:57.400 I said, I think that there's one thing that I 1:55:00.080 --> 1:55:02.200 I see a water think about is like, how can 1:55:02.280 --> 1:55:06.560 we how can you know, just make find a way 1:55:06.640 --> 1:55:11.280 to build more relatively you know, it comes back to 1:55:11.360 --> 1:55:17.880 the cost relatively cheaper golf options in these markets that 1:55:19.040 --> 1:55:22.440 are not able to keep up with the demand. 1:55:24.880 --> 1:55:25.040 You know. 1:55:25.280 --> 1:55:28.320 So that's like is it is it less than eighteen holds? 1:55:28.440 --> 1:55:30.320 Is it the one without the bunkers? Is it? 1:55:30.560 --> 1:55:30.720 You know? 1:55:30.880 --> 1:55:34.160 How do we how is it there? You know? I 1:55:34.280 --> 1:55:38.760 think that's what will eventually start drawing people back away 1:55:38.840 --> 1:55:42.800 from from that to a degree. But it again, you 1:55:42.960 --> 1:55:44.720 get to the cost where if you're going to buy 1:55:45.160 --> 1:55:49.440 an existing golf course and redo it from scratch. It's 1:55:49.480 --> 1:55:52.200 a thirty million dollar job. So like now, it's not 1:55:52.400 --> 1:55:55.720 one hundred dollars, it's it's it's three peel. It's the 1:55:55.840 --> 1:55:58.840 same as the rest. So now you know, you might 1:55:58.920 --> 1:56:01.680 get a little bit of slide around, but you know 1:56:02.000 --> 1:56:05.320 it's a bigger, it's a harder to pay off thing. 1:56:06.280 --> 1:56:08.600 So that's why you really needs to be at a 1:56:08.760 --> 1:56:15.600 significantly reduced build cost, and that's much more difficult in 1:56:15.720 --> 1:56:16.720 certain areas right now. 1:56:17.760 --> 1:56:21.880 All right, Jaeger, big thanks for coming on. Was this 1:56:22.120 --> 1:56:24.720 was great. We I feel like we covered a lot 1:56:24.760 --> 1:56:26.560 of ground. We might not cover it all the ground, 1:56:26.880 --> 1:56:31.360 but this was fun to talk about the stuff that 1:56:31.400 --> 1:56:33.320 you've been thinking about, some of the same stuff I've 1:56:33.360 --> 1:56:37.440 been thinking about. But look forward to seeing you this year. 1:56:39.000 --> 1:56:41.400 That would be great. I've been bugging you to come 1:56:41.520 --> 1:56:44.360 see some of our work here in the Northeast. 1:56:44.760 --> 1:56:47.720 They got to get to fifty right, you got a 1:56:47.800 --> 1:56:48.200 part of my. 1:56:50.000 --> 1:56:54.280 I mean, we're we could go on a proper golf 1:56:54.360 --> 1:56:56.960 tour to start in Philly at Cedar Brook work our 1:56:57.000 --> 1:56:58.520 way north. I think that'll be. 1:56:58.560 --> 1:57:02.960 Great, that would be that'd be delightful. All right, Well, 1:57:03.360 --> 1:57:07.160 we'll talk soon and and thanks for thanks for coming on. 1:57:08.640 --> 1:57:10.760 Welcome, looking forward to the next one. 1:57:22.240 --> 1:57:26.520 All right, thank you for listening to another episode of 1:57:26.640 --> 1:57:31.280 the Friday Golf Podcast. I'd love feedback. If you like 1:57:31.400 --> 1:57:34.600 the new format of the show, let me know. We 1:57:34.760 --> 1:57:37.920 are going to be, you know, doing this every week 1:57:38.000 --> 1:57:40.960 all year, so if you have if you have other 1:57:41.080 --> 1:57:43.120 things that you'd like us to cover, I think we 1:57:43.640 --> 1:57:46.400 what we are excited about with this new format is 1:57:46.480 --> 1:57:48.880 we have a little bit more flexibility to do smaller 1:57:48.960 --> 1:57:51.480 segments and in different things. If you want to hear 1:57:51.560 --> 1:57:54.080 from us on on topics that you think we haven't 1:57:54.520 --> 1:58:00.320 really broached on this podcast, let me know. Anyways, big 1:58:00.360 --> 1:58:04.880 thanks to PJ PJ Clark for editing, producing this podcast 1:58:05.160 --> 1:58:08.880 and you know, just helping me navigate life at this point. 1:58:09.280 --> 1:58:12.880 So we'll be back next week, and thank you guys. 1:58:13.000 --> 1:58:15.680 I hope everybody enjoys their week and we will be 1:58:15.840 --> 1:58:16.840 back next week.