Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Noah.
Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 3: super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you are here.
Speaker 3: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 3: We've explored the concept of secret space programs in depth,
Speaker 3: especially of Late. It's been an ongoing bad romance you
Speaker 3: could say, between NASA and Darva and your fellow conspiracy
Speaker 3: realis so yeah, oh it's perfect, perfect. Before we before
Speaker 3: we dive into this, do you guys want to give
Speaker 3: a quick recap of our ventures of late. I believe
Speaker 3: this is the first time the three of us are
Speaker 3: recording in Atlanta again.
Speaker 4: I was about to say state side, but that's not
Speaker 4: exactly right, but yeah, atl Side. Now, we had a
Speaker 4: lovely little road trip together. We all went to Los
Speaker 4: Angeles to do a cool podcast evolution conference panel on
Speaker 4: how to talk about heavy stuff without being too much
Speaker 4: of a bummer. The Er and the Heavy you might
Speaker 4: be able to hear that very panel here one of
Speaker 4: these days in the not two distant future. But we
Speaker 4: also hung out with a friend of the show, Kevin
Speaker 4: and some of his lovely friends from LA and did
Speaker 4: music trivia at this place called Permanent Records, and hung
Speaker 4: out with some of our LA folks, Miles and Jack
Speaker 4: and the whole gang.
Speaker 5: It was really great. We got a great LA crew
Speaker 5: out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was an amazing time. But we
Speaker 2: are back now and we are headed to space.
Speaker 5: Space space.
Speaker 3: Yeah, hats off to longtime conspiracy realist. You already know
Speaker 3: part of our motivation with secrets of space in the
Speaker 3: Outer Dark if you've tuned into some of our recent collaborations,
Speaker 3: most notably a particular episode of The Passage, an excellent
Speaker 3: an excellent fiction series. Well one episode is not fiction.
Speaker 3: Hoover episode is one hundred percent real. All of these
Speaker 3: are ep by our own mister Matt Frederick. Tonight, we're
Speaker 3: exploring a troubling allegation of conspiracy that is somewhat of
Speaker 3: a culmination of numerous previous rumors. This case differs in
Speaker 3: one notable respect. It appears at least some of the
Speaker 3: allegations may hold water or you know, aliens off mic.
Speaker 3: We were off air, we were talking a little bit about
Speaker 3: some of the stuff that troubles us here. And you know, guys,
Speaker 3: we never did an episode about our one of our
Speaker 3: protagonists in this story. Our tale begins with one man,
Speaker 3: a Scottish national named Gary, and Gary, when our story begins,
Speaker 3: is troubled by some rumors he's heard online. Here are
Speaker 3: the facts.
Speaker 5: That's right.
Speaker 4: In March of two thousand and two, the year of
Speaker 4: our Lord, Scottish United Kingdom national, Gary McKinnon was arrested
Speaker 4: at his apartment or a flat as they call it
Speaker 4: in London, accused under suspicion of successfully hacking into secret
Speaker 4: and highly classified sensitive US military computers from February two
Speaker 4: thousand and one to March of two thousand and two.
Speaker 4: He was twenty two years old at the time.
Speaker 2: Kind of a sensitive time to be hacking into government computers, right.
Speaker 4: When you had first you had Y two K and
Speaker 4: then of course now we're right in the thick of
Speaker 4: Post nine to eleven paranoia and anxiety.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a it's a strange milieu. It'say bad romance
Speaker 3: of state survey. The last time I'll say it of
Speaker 3: state surveillance and lackluster cybersecurity, but also an intense need
Speaker 3: to make an example of people.
Speaker 2: Oh well, yeah, exactly because Gary McKinnon is not the
Speaker 2: only person who was interested in trying to find you know,
Speaker 2: secret stuff online at that time. I mean, guys, you
Speaker 2: probably have memories. I remember as a kid learning some
Speaker 2: of the tricks I would say of getting into servers
Speaker 2: that maybe you're not supposed to.
Speaker 3: The password is password.
Speaker 4: We all had our own personal back doors at one
Speaker 4: time or another into military intelligence systems.
Speaker 2: Am I right, No, that's not what I mean. But
Speaker 2: using computers to access stuff that you wouldn't be able
Speaker 2: to access unless you had a computer and you knew
Speaker 2: how to use it, right.
Speaker 3: And he's an early adopter, as Gary, because he gets
Speaker 3: his first computer around fourteen years old, so he grows
Speaker 3: up with this as as the ted talkie folks would say,
Speaker 3: he is native to this environment. And you know, when
Speaker 3: they first arrest him, he's held in I think Brixton
Speaker 3: for about six to seven hours, so like drunk tank rules.
Speaker 3: And while he's held they take his computers, his personal ones,
Speaker 3: and they also take the He had a side business
Speaker 3: repairing people's computers. So they take any basically any computer
Speaker 3: he touches, and then they release him back into the wild.
Speaker 3: But the case wends on. Uncle Sam is very mad
Speaker 3: about this because they kind of he kind of David v.
Speaker 3: Goliath them, if we're being honest, and he and so
Speaker 3: it comes to pass that Scotland yard in June or
Speaker 3: July two thousand and five, they scoop him up and again,
Speaker 3: and this is when things get serious. The Dojus Department
Speaker 3: of Justice indicts him on eight separate accounts of computer
Speaker 3: or eight separate counts I should say, of computer related crimes.
Speaker 3: And at first they say, hey, man, you did over
Speaker 3: five hundred and sixty six thousand US dollars worth of
Speaker 3: damage to not just our hardware, but to our network,
Speaker 3: to the function of US security. And then they come
Speaker 3: back and they say it was actually over seven hundred thousand,
Speaker 3: then eight hundred thousand, then nine hundred thousand.
Speaker 2: Man, it's like this guy was copy in movies or
Speaker 2: something LimeWire.
Speaker 3: You wouldn't download UFO, would you?
Speaker 5: I would?
Speaker 3: If I could, I would one hundred percent download a
Speaker 3: uf I don't.
Speaker 5: Think you can.
Speaker 4: Did you guys ever get one of those season desist
Speaker 4: letters from like HBO.
Speaker 5: Okay, maybe don't want to Oh, no, fair enough.
Speaker 4: Well, I certainly did back in the heyday, which was
Speaker 4: literally around this time. It was the golden age of
Speaker 4: peer to peer sharing, and.
Speaker 3: You were LimeWire.
Speaker 5: I was LimeWire.
Speaker 4: I did all of the very kazah various ones. I mean,
Speaker 4: I was an early napster user back when it was
Speaker 4: like the bane of record labels.
Speaker 5: But that was a long time ago.
Speaker 4: Can't come at me now, statute of limitations, just surely.
Speaker 4: But Ben, I was wondering when they released him. I
Speaker 4: know this is sort of a thing that intelligence and
Speaker 4: you know, law enforcement officials will do. Was it a
Speaker 4: catch and release situation where they were like monitoring what
Speaker 4: he would do after? I'm just wondering, or is that
Speaker 4: not necessarily the case.
Speaker 3: That's a great question, and I cannot speak with authority here,
Speaker 3: But based on spidy sense, let's say yes, okay, let's
Speaker 3: actually based on Spidey sense. While we cannot officially confirm that,
Speaker 3: let's say one absolutely, you do the same thing.
Speaker 4: Well, it seems like smart thing to do if you
Speaker 4: don't have enough to keep them on, or at least
Speaker 4: you have enough to grab their stuff, then that probably
Speaker 4: is best.
Speaker 5: For your case if you just keep an eye on
Speaker 5: them out in the wild.
Speaker 3: And Matt's right about the shadow of nine to eleven
Speaker 3: looming large there.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh dude, with all the laws that were
Speaker 2: being written towards the end of the time that he
Speaker 2: was performing these activities, right, I mean they are at
Speaker 2: that time being written right within the confines of the
Speaker 2: White House and all of the attorneys at work around
Speaker 2: that structure, I guess. But the other thing is, I'm
Speaker 2: imagining the interrogation room, right. This is like having an
Speaker 2: interrogation room across an ocean where somebody on one side
Speaker 2: is saying, hey, this is what we have on you,
Speaker 2: and the person on the other side sweating. I guess
Speaker 2: what did they say they had.
Speaker 3: On him, Well, what they said they had on him
Speaker 3: in the UK was suspicion of illicit activities that may
Speaker 3: have This is where it gets money, because the concern
Speaker 3: was he may have compromised British nationals in the in
Speaker 3: the beginning, or he may have compromised British government networks,
Speaker 3: which would be kind of more important, honestly, more important
Speaker 3: to the UK than the compromise of a foreign nation.
Speaker 3: Five eyes aside, but shout out to you guys, thanks
Speaker 3: for tuning in the idea. Then is immediately to find
Speaker 3: out what they can get him on.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 3: If you if you look at his own origin story,
Speaker 3: he is Gary himself is pretty transparent. He says, you know,
Speaker 3: I was arrested in March two thousand and two for
Speaker 3: hacking into networks domains like dot gov, dot mil and
Speaker 3: the way he breaks it down and Gary, if you're listening,
Speaker 3: this is brilliant and brilliant. People are always humble. This
Speaker 3: is brilliant because he says, look, I do CIS admin
Speaker 3: systems administration. I wasn't doing some crazy sci fi hacking.
Speaker 3: I was basically cracking things with very lazy solutions. So
Speaker 3: when the British release him, I do think it is,
Speaker 3: to your point, NOL, a catch and release kind of thing.
Speaker 3: We've taken this guy's toys, right, we've taken his access.
Speaker 3: Let's see what else he can do when we put
Speaker 3: him in the wind right. And the problem is that
Speaker 3: the Department of Justice doesn't like it because they got touched.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean. They're a goliath who yet
Speaker 3: again got davided. So they want to make an example.
Speaker 3: And they're doing this by the way, you know, history
Speaker 3: will approve. They make examples of other countries, right, they
Speaker 3: make examples of terrorist organizations, even if those are not
Speaker 3: necessarily involved in the events of September eleventh. So the
Speaker 3: Department of Justice says, we demand that the Kingdom extradites
Speaker 3: Gary McKinnon. He must face trial in the United States.
Speaker 3: We have him dead to rights. Originally they said he
Speaker 3: hacked something like ninety seven different military and NASA computers
Speaker 3: over the course of that year. You described Noel. The
Speaker 3: number would later go up to two hundred, and he
Speaker 3: had a he had a bit of the theatrical about him.
Speaker 3: He was using a handle, a pseudonym Solo, and he
Speaker 3: was Gary McKinnon is again a very very intelligent person.
Speaker 3: He was smart enough not to do this at his
Speaker 3: own apartment or flat. He was operating out of his
Speaker 3: girlfriend's aunts house. But that that didn't help, and Uncle
Speaker 3: Sam had a lot of beef. They said, you shut
Speaker 3: down a network of two thousand computers, mission critical infrastructure
Speaker 3: for the US, the world's most dangerous military. You shut
Speaker 3: it down for like more than twenty four hours, and
Speaker 3: and you had to swing your around a little bit,
Speaker 3: because if we go on these websites at least at
Speaker 3: least once, I think multiple times, he a solo would
Speaker 3: post quote your security as crap. That's funny, oh, classically classic.
Speaker 4: It's also the kind of stuff that if he were
Speaker 4: in the employ of said agency would be welcome.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: They hire like hackers or people like Gary to look
Speaker 4: for holes in their security.
Speaker 5: But in this case it's just a troll.
Speaker 4: He's kind of thumbing his nose, you know, Adam poking
Speaker 4: the eye of the bear, which does not necessarily bode
Speaker 4: well for his you know, continued anonymity and freedom.
Speaker 2: It carries defense. They had over thirty years to develop
Speaker 2: better you know security for their systems since arpagraded their
Speaker 2: net right.
Speaker 3: Foreshadow in DARPA. Yeah, yeahah, yeah, you're absolutely right, Matt.
Speaker 3: And they also had more than three decades to change
Speaker 3: passwords from you know password, but they did not, and
Speaker 3: McKinnon leveraged that. McKinnon, by the way, he has been
Speaker 3: diagnosed with asbergers, and he was missing some of the
Speaker 3: key elements that authorities like when they want to prosecute
Speaker 3: these sorts of exploits. He was not a terrorist, had
Speaker 3: no strong extremist ideology, there was no ransomware involved, no
Speaker 3: financial gain. He was solely seeking knowledge about UFOs or
Speaker 3: what we call UAP now in the West. And for that,
Speaker 3: and he feels like found something, by the way, but
Speaker 3: for that, the DOJ wanted him in a United States
Speaker 3: jail in the US penal system for sixty years. Again,
Speaker 3: he's twenty two at this time, which means he would
Speaker 3: be eighty two when he's released if he got sixty,
Speaker 3: and they were pushing for seventy just by the way,
Speaker 3: so that would be ninety two. Yeah, in the US
Speaker 3: penal system, shout out Jason Flaub, this is functionally a
Speaker 3: death sentence.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But then they were like, ah, guys, we cut
Speaker 2: ourselves a nerd, a really interesting nerd. And I was Matthew,
Speaker 2: what do you do?
Speaker 3: At that point, well, he did say he did come clean.
Speaker 3: He said, look, I I left that. You know, I
Speaker 3: left a little graffiti on one computer. Your security is crap.
Speaker 3: And then in classic McKinnon, he also said, you know,
Speaker 3: because your security was crap, but I didn't destroy anything.
Speaker 3: I It's like I just got into the museum after dark.
Speaker 3: I looked around. I found some stuff that was not
Speaker 3: on display for the public, and this tale. I think
Speaker 3: it's a fascinating parable for state power, secrecy, cybersecurity, and conspiracy.
Speaker 3: But for tonight's purpose, our main question hinges on motivation.
Speaker 3: We know what the US government says McKinnon did, but
Speaker 3: why did he do it? Maybe we talk a little
Speaker 3: bit about his motivation.
Speaker 4: Here, Sure, I mean McKinnon was and remains quite convinced
Speaker 4: that certain world governments, the US included really in particular,
Speaker 4: actively suppress technology, a thing we talk about all the time,
Speaker 4: especially as it pertains to the potential explanation of UAP sightings.
Speaker 4: You know, we often come back around to the old
Speaker 4: chestnut of it's likely some kind of craft that is
Speaker 4: classified and was being tested and essentially was caught in
Speaker 4: the midst of a test. Certainly not the only explanation
Speaker 4: for things like that, but definitely a pretty good one. However,
Speaker 4: the types of technology and information that he believes are
Speaker 4: suppressed are gonna be a little bit, maybe more of
Speaker 4: a head scratcher than what I just described. Some more
Speaker 4: skeptical discerning listeners might scoff. Perhaps he believes governments have
Speaker 4: things like, you know, kind of more sci fi future tech,
Speaker 4: things that we really don't have any evidence of there
Speaker 4: being the ability to create at this point in time,
Speaker 4: just based on the technology that we do know about,
Speaker 4: things like anti gravity devices, much more you know out
Speaker 4: there UFO related technologies, things like free energy, another version
Speaker 4: of that zero point energy, And in many of his
Speaker 4: public statements he has declared this to be morally repugnant,
Speaker 4: given that some of these technologies might actually be helpful
Speaker 4: in you know, things we talk about all the time,
Speaker 4: like why are they suppressing things that could actually be
Speaker 4: of use to civilization at large? Isn't that a little
Speaker 4: bit short sighted, perhaps a little selfish of Uncle Sam
Speaker 4: share with the class, including problems like poverty why yeah,
Speaker 4: inequality to social and economic and of course a big
Speaker 4: one that I think will probably be a huge source
Speaker 4: of any potential future conflicts, things like resources starvation, you know,
Speaker 4: the biggies all that.
Speaker 2: For yeah, But the reasoning behind it is that some
Speaker 2: of the other kids in the class want to murder
Speaker 2: the other kids in the class, right, including the ones
Speaker 2: who developed the technology. So like, I don't know, and
Speaker 2: it really stinks, but I see the reasoning there for
Speaker 2: mcinnay at.
Speaker 3: Least, Yeah, the idea there being technologies that could improve
Speaker 3: life for the common for the common good for everybody living,
Speaker 3: but in doing so they would actually be disruptors to
Speaker 3: civilization as it stands.
Speaker 2: So like clean potentially weaponized right.
Speaker 3: Right again, like clean potable water could all that same
Speaker 3: technology could be dual use, it could be weaponized, right
Speaker 3: And this is stuff that is at the heart of
Speaker 3: Gary McKinnon's motivation. His search is not motivated in any
Speaker 3: way by making money. He doesn't want to publish a book,
Speaker 3: he doesn't want to, you know, hold a seminar. He's
Speaker 3: not trying to steal patents or whatever. He's not trying
Speaker 3: to fight for again some sort of extremist ideology. He
Speaker 3: is going back to things like the Disclosure Project. He's
Speaker 3: thinking in particular of former governmental employees, some academics government
Speaker 3: employees like Donna Hare who worked for NASA and alleged
Speaker 3: that NASA held hard evidence of UFO or UAP. In short,
Speaker 3: Gary McKinnon believed and believes the truth is out there,
Speaker 3: it's hidden and the public deserves to know. And with that,
Speaker 3: maybe we pause for I was going to say a
Speaker 3: moment of silence. It's not going to be a moment
Speaker 3: of silence, folks, We're going to pause for some ads,
Speaker 3: and then we're going to get to the heart of this.
Speaker 3: What did he claim he actually found, and we've returned
Speaker 3: it was a spreadsheet basically, yeah.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 3: Several photographs, photographs that, in the interest of transparency, none
Speaker 3: of us have viewed unedited or in the I haven't
Speaker 3: seen it. I haven't seen it in the form that
Speaker 3: he describes.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he basically found what all of the hackers
Speaker 2: find nowadays when they get a hold of giant databases
Speaker 2: that you know, an ISP keeps on somebody or a
Speaker 2: credit card company, right, a spreadsheet, Well we all know this, right,
Speaker 2: in an Excel spreadsheet. We've seen these things where there's
Speaker 2: a name, right, a date perhaps, and then other information.
Speaker 2: We don't know exactly what other information on individuals was
Speaker 2: found within that spreadsheet, but it was about something weird.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, I like that comparison to credit card records.
Speaker 3: He found metadata essentially, So he saw these names and
Speaker 3: information and a couple of phrases stuck out to him.
Speaker 3: One was non terrestrial officers and then transfers between different
Speaker 3: fleets for these officers. He then cross references these names
Speaker 3: with a database of all the publicly available US Navy
Speaker 3: and military personnel, and surprise, surprise, he's not able to
Speaker 3: find the names of these non terrestrial officers. So this
Speaker 3: is this is umami, right, this is really tasty conspiracy. Umammy, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: yum yum indeed, and he says, look, I've found something
Speaker 3: far beyond the sadly mundane skullduggery of corruption and coup
Speaker 3: and cover up. He says, I've found information about the
Speaker 3: development of a secret outer space fleet. Furthermore, I've found
Speaker 3: and in it that there is an inexhaustible source of
Speaker 3: power to your point in all about zero point or
Speaker 3: free energy, it exists. That's what powers these ships. And
Speaker 3: then he says, I've seen the photographs that Hair was
Speaker 3: talking about. I have seen photographs of UFOs in the
Speaker 3: files at the Johnson Space Center building. I took a
Speaker 3: screenshot of one, and it's a cigar shaped UAP in
Speaker 3: between outer space and Earth's atmosphere. And he also said
Speaker 3: he found evidence of a secret program called solar Warden.
Speaker 3: This is the rabbit.
Speaker 2: Hole, oh definitely, But it didn't his his fifty six
Speaker 2: K modem messed up while he was like capturing that
Speaker 2: screen shot.
Speaker 3: Isn't that what he was saying anything? And maybe Bigfoot's
Speaker 3: just blurry?
Speaker 2: You know, well, well, but what I mean. Look, according
Speaker 2: to Gary McKinnon, he was on a dial up modem.
Speaker 2: He was downloading an image, basically taking a screenshot, and
Speaker 2: it messed up or didn't finish completely. But again, this
Speaker 2: photograph is from a satellite's point of view. Imagine like
Speaker 2: way above the Earth looking down at the Earth and
Speaker 2: sees this cigar shape thing. But he described it weirdly right.
Speaker 2: There was also geodesic spheres on either end of the
Speaker 2: cigar shape which.
Speaker 5: Did not connected or as part of part of the body.
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's how he's described it to Wired
Speaker 2: in other places when he was first talking about it.
Speaker 4: I don't know, guys, my mind immediately goes to the like,
Speaker 4: you know, there's there's a whole kind of school of
Speaker 4: art called glitch art where you can remove pixels or essentially,
Speaker 4: I guess, simulate a low quality data transmission, and a
Speaker 4: lot of that ends up with the result of smeared
Speaker 4: pixels or things that kind of are stretched or weirdly shaped,
Speaker 4: you know, of an image, I do tend to wonder
Speaker 4: if that fifty six K modem glitch may be caused
Speaker 4: a visual anomaly.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 4: You mentioned already at the top end, and we mentioned
Speaker 4: the top the idea of some of these claims being
Speaker 4: something that might be approached with a little skepticism, and
Speaker 4: I think that's where I'm starting. But this is also
Speaker 4: a new story to me, so I'm going to keep
Speaker 4: an open mind.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is where the rabbit hole begins. We
Speaker 3: can go in depth on Gary McKinnon, indeed hopefully speak
Speaker 3: with him in a later installment of stuff they don't
Speaker 3: want you to know, but for now, for our purposes, tonight,
Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realist, what is Operation Solar Warden? Here's where
Speaker 3: it gets crazy to the true believers. It is a
Speaker 3: secret space program leveraging suppressed technology of unknown providence that
Speaker 3: has been operating in secret since nineteen eighty and Gary
Speaker 3: McKennon comes with facts in multiple interviews.
Speaker 5: Matt.
Speaker 3: You cited one of the ones you sided, the Wired
Speaker 3: interview that he did a while back twosand and six,
Speaker 3: two thousand and six. So in that one he says
Speaker 3: the US Naval Network and Space Operations Command or Mumsok
Speaker 3: is the ultimate head of solar Warden, and he comes
Speaker 3: with he comes with some specifics that he derives in
Speaker 3: this hack. He says, they're about three hundred specifically US
Speaker 3: Army personnel, which I take to mean, given that he's
Speaker 3: a Scottish national, I take that to mean US military
Speaker 3: in general.
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably doesn't know all right.
Speaker 3: The differences in the branches. And then he says, there
Speaker 3: are eight enormous like cartoonish cigar sized craft or cigar
Speaker 3: shaped craft, and each of these are about the length
Speaker 3: of two football fields, and each of these are capable
Speaker 3: of all that Paul beat me here, all that amazing
Speaker 3: we hear about in UFO lore turning on a dime,
Speaker 3: disappearing transmedium actions like from the see to the orbit.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is another really weird thing that he notes. Uh.
Speaker 2: He says on these objects, quote, there were no visible
Speaker 2: seams or riveting, which is interesting, right, if it's a
Speaker 2: man made craft, you've got a bolt together pieces of metal.
Speaker 2: At least those are the ones we know about.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 2: Even on the most advanced aircraft or jets, there are
Speaker 2: seams between pieces, like if you imagine some of these
Speaker 2: more advanced aircraft that their wings change. Right, we've probably
Speaker 2: seen these in movies or we've seen images of them.
Speaker 2: You can see the seams, but this thing is just.
Speaker 5: You mean like they fold up, Yes, this position, I.
Speaker 2: Say so, Yeah, a lot of the aircraft actually changed
Speaker 2: position in how their wings look. But he's not seeing
Speaker 2: any of that stuff on these craft, which to me
Speaker 2: is I don't know that it doesn't mean anything. Besides,
Speaker 2: I guess when we think about UAP sightings now, it's
Speaker 2: leading me down towards you know, the twenty twenties of
Speaker 2: sightings rather than the early two thousands.
Speaker 3: Right, exactly. That's a really great point because even now
Speaker 3: all acknowledged terrestrial made craft do have seams, like the
Speaker 3: even the high feluding stealth craft that were initially confused
Speaker 3: with alien technology and a confusion that the US government
Speaker 3: was glad to embrace. By the way, even even that stuff,
Speaker 3: if you look at it, it does have seams. Right.
Speaker 3: They build and sculpt the metal and wield it, weld
Speaker 3: it together. But he said, this is way more t
Speaker 3: one thousand.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's exactly the image ben some kind of alloy
Speaker 2: er metal that is moldable in that way that doesn't
Speaker 2: require it to be assembled in separate.
Speaker 4: Pieces, like actively mouldable, like able to change state.
Speaker 3: Right like in the This is a shout out to
Speaker 3: conspiracy realist of a certain age, but like the spacecraft
Speaker 3: in the Flight of the Navigator.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, or the creature in the Abyss, which is I
Speaker 4: believe the first James Cameron movie to really use that
Speaker 4: T one thousand liquid metal thing that was made of water.
Speaker 3: But right, I rewatched the Abyss that was held up
Speaker 3: he does, Yeah, I'd like to see it as well.
Speaker 3: Have you guys seen Flight of the Navigator.
Speaker 4: I know it was a big Disney kid in space movie, Like,
Speaker 4: isn't that right?
Speaker 5: Like the Adventure in the in the Stars.
Speaker 3: Yes, and in there they have a craft that is
Speaker 3: capable of the same sort of thing that McKinnon is describing. However,
Speaker 3: to be very clear, McKinnon does not claim that he
Speaker 3: has seen this in person. He's saying he did a hack,
Speaker 3: he found evidence of this, and he also says, look,
Speaker 3: it's not just these eight enormous double football field spacecraft.
Speaker 3: There is a much larger number of smaller what he
Speaker 3: calls scoutcraft, and they can do even they can reach
Speaker 3: even further heights of maneuverability and violation of physics as
Speaker 3: humans understand it. He says he found records of forty
Speaker 3: three of these smaller scout ships, and if you think
Speaker 3: of the way that the US and conventional naval forces
Speaker 3: at least deploy deploy carrier groups, that it makes sense
Speaker 3: that you need ancillery craft for the big boys, right
Speaker 3: for the carriers and so on. He also says he
Speaker 3: finds two names. It's implied that two of the two
Speaker 3: names he finds are the names for two of the
Speaker 3: big boys, the USS way for it s LeMay and
Speaker 3: the USS way for it S hillin Kotre. You know,
Speaker 3: people know that US Navy ships usually only have two
Speaker 3: s's Gary saw three. Maybe that stands for United States
Speaker 3: Spaceship unproven.
Speaker 2: I mean it could, it legitimately could. In twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: we got the Space Force, and there's all kinds of
Speaker 2: weird stuff happening with them right right now in the news.
Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit, but usss SA.
Speaker 3: Nobody will figure it out right, So in general, we
Speaker 3: have to be honest folks. Often you can see claims
Speaker 3: like this in any number of forums and conventions. You
Speaker 3: can talk to people who say, Hey, I'm convinced I
Speaker 3: have found something like this already. We see that McKinnon's
Speaker 3: case differs in one serious respect. The United States government
Speaker 3: was willing to cross the pond to get this guy
Speaker 3: and put him in prison for the rest of his life.
Speaker 3: And when the US won, they don't choose to do that.
Speaker 3: Lightly like spoiler, if you want a pirate, If you
Speaker 3: want a pirate a copy the cinematic masterpiece vibes, the
Speaker 3: DOJ is not going to come for you. I think
Speaker 3: I hope that comment ages well as we continue into
Speaker 3: the future. But there's a second respect in which this
Speaker 3: is different. In twenty ten, independent journalist investigator UFO researcher
Speaker 3: named Darren Perks did something that we're quite fortunate to
Speaker 3: be able to do in the United States. He filed
Speaker 3: a Freedom of Information Act requests, commonly called a FOYA
Speaker 3: in these part in these parts of the Global Woods FOYA.
Speaker 3: The argument of the FOYA is, if you are paying taxes,
Speaker 3: you should have a right to request from the US
Speaker 3: government what they're doing with all that money that everybody
Speaker 3: asked to pay. And Perks found some weird, some weird
Speaker 3: sand that appeared to if not one to one corroborate
Speaker 3: the claims that Gary McKinnon, it appeared to further differentiate
Speaker 3: them from the usual disinformation and scuttle butt of UFO lore.
Speaker 4: And just a quick aside before we get into it,
Speaker 4: the response time and let's just say customer service of
Speaker 4: the Freedom of Information Act request wasn't great.
Speaker 5: Left something to be desired.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he reached out to the Department of Defense d D. Right,
Speaker 2: I'm going to read part of this, guys. I think
Speaker 2: this is fantastic.
Speaker 3: And this is from a Huffington Post article or blog
Speaker 3: written by Perks in twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we have to you know, we have to
Speaker 2: believe Perks that this is actually what he's what he received,
Speaker 2: because there was no screenshot of this email. Right, but
Speaker 2: this is an email from the DoD.
Speaker 5: Quote.
Speaker 2: About an hour ago, I spoke to a NASA rep
Speaker 2: who confirmed this was their program and that it was
Speaker 2: terminated by the president. He also informed me that it
Speaker 2: was not a joint program with the DoD. The NASA
Speaker 2: rep informed me that you should be directed to the
Speaker 2: Johnson Space Center FOIA manager. I have ran your request
Speaker 2: through one of our space related directories and I'm waiting
Speaker 2: on one other division with the command to respond back
Speaker 2: to me. I will contact you once I have a
Speaker 2: response from the other division. And then it ends with
Speaker 2: did NASA refer you to us?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Right, like so yeah, the comparison is something that will
Speaker 3: be unfortunately unfortunately identifiable and understandable to all of us
Speaker 3: listening along tonight. Have you ever called a big company
Speaker 3: with a lot of departments and they say, who are
Speaker 3: you trying to reach? Let me get you over to that.
Speaker 3: You get over to them and they're like, oh, who
Speaker 3: are you trying to reach? Blah blah blah. So this
Speaker 3: is this purposeful obtuseness or is this just a hazard
Speaker 3: of bureaucracy? I would argue the latter, to be quite
Speaker 3: honest with you.
Speaker 2: But yeah, but in the end, DoD at least if
Speaker 2: this email is real, said yeah, that's a real thing
Speaker 2: and it's NASAs, so like leave us alone.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, that's I mean? Is that what you would say? Like? Yeah, sure,
Speaker 3: I don't know if I call them.
Speaker 5: So the.
Speaker 3: Perks concludes from this again, and this is in twenty twelve,
Speaker 3: says Solar Wharton In Perks's research is allegedly made up
Speaker 3: of black project contractors Skunkworks basically in the US, and
Speaker 3: Skunkworks are very real and continue today, and says that
Speaker 3: there are some parts and components and software that are
Speaker 3: contributed by Canada, the UK, Italy, Austria, Russia that parted
Speaker 3: in age well and Australia. And then also Perks says,
Speaker 3: quote it is said that the program solar Warden is
Speaker 3: tested and operated from secret military bases such as Area
Speaker 3: fifty one in Nevada. Be careful always with the passive voice, folks,
Speaker 3: it is said, avoids naming the speaker.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, and the writer who wrote that, Darren Perks, is
Speaker 2: citing Gary McKinnon in all of that stuff, like saying,
Speaker 2: this is information that comes from Gary McKinnon and what
Speaker 2: he found when he did his hack.
Speaker 3: Right, So it verges on tautological, right, tautology, But the
Speaker 3: narrative divides, you know, in the pursuit of information again,
Speaker 3: Perks finds himself referred to various government bodies. And if
Speaker 3: any of this is, if any of this holds up,
Speaker 3: then these allegations are stunning, world shaking, as the Internet
Speaker 3: used to say back in the early two thousands. Big.
Speaker 3: If true, this means that the us would one have
Speaker 3: knowledge of suppressed technology, whatever the origin of providence, and
Speaker 3: then two somehow successfully restricted this knowledge from the public,
Speaker 3: didn't let its enemies know, even though some of its
Speaker 3: erstwhile enemies were collaborating with it, and it also hit
Speaker 3: it in some part from its allies. And three, at
Speaker 3: the same time, while keeping all this a secret, it
Speaker 3: deployed this technology successfully, even if only in a test
Speaker 3: run like that BMW a T one thousand BMW that
Speaker 3: we're talking about off air.
Speaker 5: Oh, it's made of liquid metal.
Speaker 3: Two it's been a fabric with Okay, the.
Speaker 5: Actual model number were you referring to?
Speaker 3: BMW is not that cool, sorry BMW owners.
Speaker 2: But it uses a thing that DARPA has an active
Speaker 2: research project on. I guess we would call it what
Speaker 2: do they call it? Active flow control? Being able to
Speaker 2: change basically the shape of a craft at at will
Speaker 2: or in certain configurations.
Speaker 3: Hmmm, yeah, the idea being that it can adapt in
Speaker 3: media arrests as needed. Right, And you don't have to
Speaker 3: you know how, Like you if you want a different
Speaker 3: sort of airflow control on your typical on your typical
Speaker 3: fast and furious vehicle, you have to take it into
Speaker 3: the shop. To put in a spoiler. You can just
Speaker 3: do that on the road.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and often with BMW, I think with their
Speaker 2: model it was to make it cool looking and in
Speaker 2: different ways. But you know, with DARPA, it's their their
Speaker 2: program is called Crane, which you know, these acronyms that
Speaker 2: they're running with a DARPA control of revolutionary aircraft with
Speaker 2: novel effectors. And then you combine that up with their
Speaker 2: drag program that's also active drag reducing architected geometries, which
Speaker 2: is interesting, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but putting revolutionary in there definitely sounds like a
Speaker 3: sales pitch.
Speaker 2: I don't no, dude. They had to make Crane work, Okay, Ben.
Speaker 3: All right, they had to make Cravee work. We've all
Speaker 3: been there also, you know, shout out to all the
Speaker 3: all the boffins at BMW who I'm sure working around
Speaker 3: the clock to institute turn signals in their vehicles. You
Speaker 3: know what I meant, This struggle is real. You know,
Speaker 3: check in with DARPA. Science continues on BMW turn signals.
Speaker 2: But for real, guys, do you think if DARPA publicly
Speaker 2: puts on their website a program like that, do you
Speaker 2: think that that is already something that has been developed
Speaker 2: and is controlled, and now it's just studying it more,
Speaker 2: or something that they something that's already patented, or you know,
Speaker 2: use their abilities to take that patent away and then
Speaker 2: research it for ten twenty thirty years.
Speaker 3: The Invention Act makes it pretty certain to me that
Speaker 3: for it to be on a publicly available website, the
Speaker 3: concept or the possibility has been proven. It's just whether
Speaker 3: or not it can be applicable in a feasible manner.
Speaker 3: That's my take.
Speaker 5: I don't know what you guys think.
Speaker 3: I hear you.
Speaker 2: It's weird. It's just because you can also find their
Speaker 2: lunar architecture program that's been going on for a while.
Speaker 3: This makes you think, and China's going to mine the
Speaker 3: Moon and everything's fine on Earth anyway.
Speaker 5: This was going to blow up the moon. Let's shine
Speaker 5: up their mining. Yeah maybe us. I don't know.
Speaker 3: Sarah Silverman's so mad. You know, we're Earth lanes. Let's
Speaker 3: blow up Earth things. I rewatched that after one of
Speaker 3: our one of our recent episodes. But but there is
Speaker 3: that there are some troubling truths to McKinnon's claims. First off,
Speaker 3: McKinnon has always said what he saw, whether or not
Speaker 3: you agree with it or his interpretation theref. He says
Speaker 3: what he saw proves above all one thing, the US will,
Speaker 3: by hook or by crook, seek dominance in outer space.
Speaker 3: And the pickle of it is that's true. You don't
Speaker 3: need alien technology to prove that. The X thirty seven B.
Speaker 3: If you're hearing this on Earth, that bad boy is
Speaker 3: flying over you right now. The NRO is all up
Speaker 3: in your text messages if they want to be.
Speaker 2: Space foress and I. The NRO is looking at your
Speaker 2: phone as you're walking outside at text messages. They're not
Speaker 2: They're not like that signals intelligence. They're literally looking at
Speaker 2: your life like they're zooming.
Speaker 3: In like all those all those copaganda films you see
Speaker 3: where or the programs where like there are people working
Speaker 3: in an office that is way too nice for an
Speaker 3: law enforcement agency when they're like leaning over the computer
Speaker 3: with the one person who apparently knows how to use Google,
Speaker 3: and they're like screens right, and they're like enhance, enhance,
Speaker 3: enhance that image. Gle enhance that image. The NRO can
Speaker 3: really do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they actually have the lenses for it, which is
Speaker 2: so weird to think about. But guys, there's also things
Speaker 2: like the new Space Force and Operation Cobra, which is
Speaker 2: this giant echo. Oh excuse me, Cobra Gold twenty.
Speaker 3: Four put some respect on it again.
Speaker 2: Seriously, just a huge joint multinational exercise kind of like
Speaker 2: jade Helm where they are using space and the forces
Speaker 2: in space that they control, the Space Forces, and they're
Speaker 2: doing joint military exercises with that, and y'all. This was
Speaker 2: announced March twenty eighth, twenty twenty four, so just a
Speaker 2: couple of days ago as we're recording. This Space Force
Speaker 2: created a thing called Space Scent, which is their central
Speaker 2: command basically at Space Force.
Speaker 3: Sure like Sentcomm or force comm exactly.
Speaker 2: They call it Space Scent. And they just deployed this
Speaker 2: thing called US Space Force Central Combat Detachment three to one,
Speaker 2: which is for space combat. Guys. It's the first time
Speaker 2: I've actually heard of, you know, the United States or
Speaker 2: Space Force. I think they're getting ready to put weapons
Speaker 2: in space like and do it actively and publicly, because
Speaker 2: that was a that was a public announcement that they made.
Speaker 3: And it will be in reaction to signals sent by
Speaker 3: the Russian forces. So it's all defense, I'm.
Speaker 2: Sure, But I just I guess what I mean, dude. Yes,
Speaker 2: but it's happening right now and it's real and just
Speaker 2: what I'm imagining. How far we've come since two thousand
Speaker 2: and two when Gary was in those servers, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, history proved him to a degree prescient, right in
Speaker 3: some respects. Again, extra terrestrials have not been proven nor
Speaker 3: confirmed yet, and solar warden as a concept is again
Speaker 3: officially unproven. There has been two date, no official confirmation,
Speaker 3: no statement to the public past that one sort of
Speaker 3: alighting foy a response of anything like solar warden. But
Speaker 3: there are troubling things in the wind. They are ripples
Speaker 3: in the water. The sea is not calm, and what
Speaker 3: swims beneath or above it. We're gonna pause for a
Speaker 3: word from our sponsor, and then we'll return with our
Speaker 3: verdict to maybe an update on Gary. Has anybody talked
Speaker 3: about Gary? Okay? Yeah, Gary's okay, And we have turn
Speaker 3: to your earlier point, Matt. Recent events require a new
Speaker 3: reassessment part of the alliteration of Gary's claims. In the
Speaker 3: years or excuse me, decades following two thousand and two,
Speaker 3: multiple largely credible individuals came forward with claims that something
Speaker 3: was fishy up there in the skies and in the ink.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's the question. Did Gary McKinnon succeed in
Speaker 3: his mission? Did he verify and publicize some sort of
Speaker 3: long running, obscure above top secret program leveraging bleeding edge technology.
Speaker 2: Well, what he didn't understand is that that Excel spreadsheet
Speaker 2: actually had a list of non human assets within the
Speaker 2: United States Army or just military or whatever. No, I'm
Speaker 2: just choking. I'm just choking.
Speaker 5: It was a hidden column.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but imagine if there was. It's really funny.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine if if it was like they just
Speaker 2: had human names for everybody else's benefit working on the teams.
Speaker 5: But instead of like zarg or you know whatever.
Speaker 2: Something that you couldn't even pronounce, probably with human mouth.
Speaker 3: Man, doctor accula.
Speaker 5: That's different.
Speaker 4: I don't know, guys, My skeptic brain is still kind
Speaker 4: of firing off at this point. I don't know that
Speaker 4: I've been swayed, because we just we've certainly seen evidence
Speaker 4: of some stuff, and it usually does tie back to
Speaker 4: these kind of tests of bleeding edge tech, like you said, Ben,
Speaker 4: but not stuff quite within the realm of what old Gary.
Speaker 5: Here is is alleging. So I don't know.
Speaker 4: I would love to speak to the man himself. But
Speaker 4: where where is this this investigation gotten?
Speaker 3: You guys too, Yeah, that's a good question. Skeptics may
Speaker 3: easily and with validity, dismiss the entirety of this tangled
Speaker 3: stories hogwash. But if we are exercising skepticism and critical thinking, which.
Speaker 4: Goes both ways, doesn't just mean that you're negging something,
Speaker 4: It just means that you thought about it because you're
Speaker 4: skeptical on the opposite end.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really glad. I'm really happy that you point
Speaker 3: that out, because skepticism, skepticism that shies away from inconvenient questions,
Speaker 3: is only another zealous ideology and as such does not
Speaker 3: serve our purposes and is indeed antithetical to critical thinking.
Speaker 3: I mean, if if okay, so here here are the questions.
Speaker 3: If any or all of this stuff that mkennan is
Speaker 3: claiming is false, why did the United States spend so
Speaker 3: much time pushing for his extradition? Right? They put a
Speaker 3: lot of blood, sweat, and treasure into that. You could
Speaker 3: say they wanted to make of him an example makes sense?
Speaker 4: Really, only know they love to do that, and if
Speaker 4: they've got a big one, They'll probably put a little
Speaker 4: more resources into it because it would certainly serve their
Speaker 4: goals of discouraging others from you know, getting into their
Speaker 4: into their business.
Speaker 2: But if you've really found something, wouldn't wouldn't the men
Speaker 2: in black just give them the old flash of Roos
Speaker 2: disappear or send him to a black site somewhere.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, commit suicide by shooting himself twice in
Speaker 3: the back of his head, or maybe maybe shooting himself
Speaker 3: with his non dominant hand and then his shit too,
Speaker 3: and his two children look at m.
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, it really makes me think of a show
Speaker 4: that I've really been enjoying lately that I think we
Speaker 4: talked about during our travels, an Apple TV or Apple
Speaker 4: Plus show called Slow Horses, about spy masters, you know
Speaker 4: in the UK working for their intelligence services, and of
Speaker 4: course Gary Oldman plays the spy masters in charge of
Speaker 4: kind of the the bad, the worst spies that sort
Speaker 4: of did a bad job and got sort of put
Speaker 4: in this a place called slough House for punishment. But
Speaker 4: some of the stuff that it goes into in terms
Speaker 4: of how far the government will go to silence those
Speaker 4: that have information that they would rather not get out there.
Speaker 4: It's pretty chilling stuff and it really does feel like
Speaker 4: it has the ring of truth.
Speaker 5: So I'm with you, guys.
Speaker 4: I feel like the secrets suit of the faked suicide
Speaker 4: or just you know, convenience vanishing would probably be on
Speaker 4: the table if he really did have the goods.
Speaker 3: And then to answer that, to counterpoint to that first question,
Speaker 3: why did the US spend so much time pushing for
Speaker 3: his extradition? If any of this stuff is true, not
Speaker 3: all of it, but any of it, then why did
Speaker 3: the US, the world's most powerful and dangerous force. Why
Speaker 3: did they ultimately comply with the United Kingdom's decision to
Speaker 3: keep McKinnon on their soil? We'll get to that. Why
Speaker 3: did they push? Push, push? And then give why on Earth?
Speaker 3: To put this quite bluntly, in a way that you
Speaker 3: will not hear in diplomatic conversations, why on Earth? Part
Speaker 3: in the wordplay? Is Gary McKinnon still alive? It's true
Speaker 3: at this point, he's alive. He's on UK soil. He
Speaker 3: did delete his Twitter. I guess that's a casualty of
Speaker 3: it if.
Speaker 2: You want to, because it's an X account.
Speaker 3: Now it's an ex account. Now sure, he's big on
Speaker 3: true social or whatever. But the photos he allegedly obtained
Speaker 3: were removed from his computer when he was initially popped
Speaker 3: and put in Brixton right in two thousand and two.
Speaker 3: He he doesn't have access to these photos as well.
Speaker 3: Per his most recent conversations, he claims that the UK
Speaker 3: government used photoshop in specific shout out Adobe to edit
Speaker 3: out the UFOs from these photos before they were released
Speaker 3: or even propagated internally. And that is a tail all
Speaker 3: too common in the modern narrative cough cough, folklore of disclosure.
Speaker 3: The proof is there, I saw it, but due to
Speaker 3: insert reason here, you cannot see it.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I'm thinking about the Mirage men and some
Speaker 2: of those discoveries that the US government will use disinformation
Speaker 2: agents to put false information out there to a UFO enthusiast.
Speaker 2: Right so, and I'm imagining what what if the security
Speaker 2: on those servers actually was really great and they watched
Speaker 2: Gary McKinnon stroll through the door and they went, oh, guys, guys,
Speaker 2: this guy's sneaking around. Uh you, let's let's get some
Speaker 2: of those UFO photographs, those like ones that we generated.
Speaker 2: Let's get those into a folder. Is anyone really good
Speaker 2: at excel. Let's make a spreadsheet with quote non terrestrial officers.
Speaker 2: Let's make sure he sees that. What do you think
Speaker 2: that's even in the realm of possibility.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's in the realm possibility. You know what's that
Speaker 3: line the pond mocks the movements of the bishop and
Speaker 3: never sees the chessboard from above, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Or it's just a cool prank.
Speaker 2: Well, well, but in the end, like it's it's part
Speaker 2: of the propaganda world building that the United States has
Speaker 2: been involved with for since its inception. Right, Sure, make
Speaker 2: the story about US big and huge and scary to
Speaker 2: a lot of points, but also exciting and you know,
Speaker 2: patriotic and special, and every country does that. And I
Speaker 2: just wonder if there's something like.
Speaker 3: That, there's theater to it. It's quite possible. It's also
Speaker 3: you know, in in the point or to the pro
Speaker 3: side of that argument, it is much more likely than
Speaker 3: the idea that extraterrestrials crashed on the planet Earth in
Speaker 3: a time of modern civilization and that their technology was
Speaker 3: understandable and recover and successfully leveraged by primates, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, Like put it in that perspective, the
Speaker 3: grift seems a little bit more plausible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it took thirty three years, right, nineteen forty
Speaker 2: seven to nineteen eighty.
Speaker 3: Photoshop wasn't where it is now. That's part of it.
Speaker 3: But I see, I think that's a good example. And
Speaker 3: you know, folks, we don't have the answers for this.
Speaker 3: We can tell you that in twenty twelve, under the
Speaker 3: administration of Teresa May, Gary McKinnon's extradition was blocked, and
Speaker 3: it was blocked entirely on the basis of human rights,
Speaker 3: given that the US penal system is a nightmare, and
Speaker 3: given that McKinnon does have Asberger's, is not affiliated with
Speaker 3: any terrorist organization, et cetera, et cetera. They said, we're
Speaker 3: not going to do it. We're not going to send
Speaker 3: this guy to the wolves. And ultimately, as we record
Speaker 3: this evening, McKinnon was neither trialed nor officially the charges
Speaker 3: against him were dropped in the United Kingdom, and there
Speaker 3: have been few substantive updates since. Imagine, if you will,
Speaker 3: Julian Assange over in that Ecuadorian embassy looking on and
Speaker 3: wonder and envy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no joke, Julian. We're still rooting for you, You're okay, Well, yeah, no.
Speaker 4: I mean in the way of an update, what is
Speaker 4: happening with Julian. He's still just a holding patterns as
Speaker 4: that has always been.
Speaker 2: Is it that time? Is it a Julian songe update time.
Speaker 5: I'm just we haven't talked about it in so long.
Speaker 5: I kind of lost Jack. I just assumed it was
Speaker 5: sort of the same, much of the same.
Speaker 3: But he's got he is still embroiled. I was talking
Speaker 3: with I was talking briefly with our pals from Zeitgeist,
Speaker 3: Miles and Jack about this. He is still embroiled in
Speaker 3: attempting to stave off extradition to the United States. But
Speaker 3: Uncle Sam wants him very bad, like that poster. I
Speaker 3: want like that post specifically, But man, he's been fighting
Speaker 3: that for years.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, And I guess my question is, like, if
Speaker 4: they really want you, maybe it should give us a
Speaker 4: little bit of a solace.
Speaker 5: It does appear they can't just get you.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of red tape that has to be
Speaker 4: worked through to make things like that happen.
Speaker 5: A lot of the operation.
Speaker 2: It depends what you did, too, right, That's also true.
Speaker 3: It does it does you mess with the future. You
Speaker 3: mess with the money, you mess with the resource extraction,
Speaker 3: you get on a different list. It's a much shorter list,
Speaker 3: and in the consequences of that list are not cool.
Speaker 3: He got upgraded on the Naughty list, basically, he got
Speaker 3: naughty plus.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. And with McKinnon they were just like, oh man,
Speaker 2: he found the pictures of the thing we're going to
Speaker 2: deploy in twenty twenty four during the solar eclipse. Ah jeez.
Speaker 1: Nice.
Speaker 2: Oh well, it'll be all right, nice.
Speaker 3: This episode may come out around then. Yeah, and right now.
Speaker 3: As of about three days ago. Last week, as we record,
Speaker 3: at the end of March, a British court temporarily yet
Speaker 3: again delayed the extradition of Julian Asonge. So it's still
Speaker 3: kicking the can down the road and we are going
Speaker 3: to have I think a full update when that news breaks.
Speaker 3: Have one last question for you guys. I know we're
Speaker 3: getting close to our time together this evening, Matt nolefellow
Speaker 3: conspiracy realist. If there is a real secret afoot, then
Speaker 3: riddle me this. Why is the BBC coming out with
Speaker 3: a feature film called The People Versus Gary McKinnon. Why
Speaker 3: did the BBC Radio four air a two thousand and
Speaker 3: seven radio play called the McKinnon Extradition. If you're trying
Speaker 3: to cover up the truth, I mean, it's the wijiboard question.
Speaker 3: If a Wiji board actually lets you speak with the dead,
Speaker 3: why can you buy one at every department store?
Speaker 2: I mean, I hear you. Why did they let Ian
Speaker 2: Douglass write a three part series called Solar Warden. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's out there. You can find it and guess what
Speaker 2: it's about.
Speaker 3: What's it about?
Speaker 2: Very thing? It's a sci fi science fiction three part series.
Speaker 2: The first one's called Alien Secrets and it came out
Speaker 2: in June twenty twenty, and the third series came out
Speaker 2: last April.
Speaker 5: Any good, we don't know.
Speaker 2: We haven't read it. I'ven't read it.
Speaker 4: Well, what about the radio play? Thing that's interesting? Medium
Speaker 4: for it? Of either of you guys check it out.
Speaker 3: I thought the I mean the readio play I thought
Speaker 3: was interesting is way more, in my opinion's way more
Speaker 3: focused on the extradition struggle for Gary McKinnon and the
Speaker 3: BBC film that should be on the way soon is
Speaker 3: based on a book by Jnas Sharp, who is Gary
Speaker 3: McKinnon's mother. So Solar Warden the science fiction series is
Speaker 3: more focused on what we're talking about today.
Speaker 2: And it is, by the way, it is about the
Speaker 2: I think so the Solar Warden fiction series, just to
Speaker 2: make sure we know what we're talking about here. It
Speaker 2: does focus on the end of World War two, right
Speaker 2: around the old roswell crash times, just saying okay, I
Speaker 2: don't know, whatever I have. The art looks fun to me.
Speaker 2: And Ian Douglass has definitely written a dang crapload of
Speaker 2: science fiction and military books.
Speaker 3: Yes, quite prolific author, for sure, and there has in
Speaker 3: recent years been a growing market for stories touching on
Speaker 3: government cover ups and allegations of unusual things, especially you know,
Speaker 3: alternate history or revisionist history UFOs UAP. But one thing
Speaker 3: is for sure, fantasy aside. There is a lot of
Speaker 3: activity in the air these days, more so now than
Speaker 3: at any point in way for modern civilization. A lot
Speaker 3: of stuff is out in space, and until the public
Speaker 3: gets some solid answers, a lot of that stuff remains
Speaker 3: the stuff they don't want you to know. We can't
Speaker 3: wait to hear your thoughts, folks. We try to be
Speaker 3: easy to find online.
Speaker 4: Find us online at the handle Conspiracy Stuff, where we
Speaker 4: exist on Facebook, on YouTube and on xfka, Twitter, on
Speaker 4: TikTok and Instagram. We are a conspiracy stuff show.
Speaker 2: Do you like calling people and leaving voicemails? Where you
Speaker 2: can do that to us? Call one eight three three STDWYTK.
Speaker 2: That's stuff that I want you to know. Just smash
Speaker 2: together DARPA style when you call in, give yourself a
Speaker 2: cool nickname, let us know if we can use your
Speaker 2: name and message on the air, and then you've got
Speaker 2: three minutes. Do whatever you'd like within those three minutes.
Speaker 2: If you do know the first things we asked you
Speaker 2: to do, if you've got more to say than can
Speaker 2: fit in that message, if you've got links, if you've
Speaker 2: got attachments, why not instead shoot us a good old
Speaker 2: fashioned email.
Speaker 3: We are the folks who read every single email we get.
Speaker 3: Take us to the edge of the rabbit hole, will
Speaker 3: do the rest? Be worn folks. Sometimes the void writes
Speaker 3: back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
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