1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Quick housekeeping note, this is 4 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: part two of a two part series, so if you 5 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: have not had the opportunity to check out part one 6 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: of our conversation with David Adams Cleveland, get the to 7 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: your podcast platform of choice and check it out. I 8 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: was gonna say a podcast, um, that's of thing, but 9 00:00:53,920 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: it should be why not enjoyed? You know, I can't 10 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: help but think about Frank Olsen, you know, in the 11 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: mk ulture experiments, the CIA mind control project that ultimately 12 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: resulted in his death, whether by misadventure, uh, suicide or 13 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: you know, some sort of murderous plot. But he also 14 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: plunged his death from a from a high window from 15 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: a hotel, and it just kind of makes me think, like, obviously, 16 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: you know, the KGB are known to be incredibly ruthless, 17 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: it's almost legendary, But I mean the CIA is pretty 18 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: ruthless too. I just wondered if there's any analogs that 19 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: you see between the two countries and the two organizations. Well, 20 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: the c I a UM had to do a lot 21 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: of things that most of it's UH operatives didn't enjoy doing. 22 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: Reading other people's bail was the joke that was always used, UH. 23 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: But in fact, after the Second World War, we were 24 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: up against a very aggressive Soviet Union and a very 25 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: aggressive KGB UH who being just the latest and hopefully 26 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: last example of the KGB trained cadres UH, and so 27 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: the CIA was forced to do a lot of things 28 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: that in retrospect it might have chosen not to do. 29 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: On the other hand, there were rules and regulations that 30 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: the CIA officers had to maintain, and by and large, 31 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: they stuck pretty much UH to the protocols of their 32 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: of their service, whereas the KGB operatives, UH, it was 33 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: pretty much anything goes and they were experts at bumping 34 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: off enemies UH, front, right and center. So I I 35 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: think it's night and day the difference between them, even 36 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: though the CIA had to adopt a lot of tough 37 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: measures UH in a tough Cold War and and the aftermath, No, 38 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: that makes sense. And I mean the mk Ultra situation 39 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: I think was one of those where they you know, 40 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: had UH certain individuals that were hired to be part 41 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: of this program that we're sort of given carte blanche 42 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: to do whatever they wanted and test you know, ariosolized 43 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: LSD on civilians and and and the like and even 44 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: their own you know, I'd like to further pursue, uh, 45 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: something we set up at the very beginning of this 46 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: conversation David, which is the the burden and the art 47 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: of historical fiction. Now, this book is exhaustively research, which 48 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: to me is tremendously compelling, and it does something that 49 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: a lot of these stories, a lot of these stories 50 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: missed the mark on Gods of deception humanizes what could 51 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: have otherwise been uh reciting of and of timelines and events. 52 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: But here in this story they or is a fascinating framework. 53 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: You know, Um, if we weren't talking about Russia, I'd 54 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: be more comfortable saying, uh, Matroshka dolls nested in the narrative. 55 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: So when and I don't want to spoil this too much. 56 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: I think people should experience this on their own. But 57 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: our story kind of starts with a judge in his 58 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: later years who is thinking back about his life, and 59 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: he is Edward Dimmock. He has defended Alger Hiss during 60 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: that Cold War trial and he's working on his memoirs 61 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: and he's still haunted, and him being haunted by this 62 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: leads to um him you know him, I don't want 63 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: to say conscripting him, asking his grandson George Altman two 64 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: help hidden understand the story the truth that occurs. And 65 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: I'm wondering what inspired you to take that approach. That's 66 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: one of the things that hooked me at the beginning. Well, 67 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: it's just what you said, Ben. I thought it important 68 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: as a novelist, as a fiction writer, to humanize the story. 69 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: It's enough to uh talk about Aldre Hiss and his 70 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: possible crimes and the crime certainly of Stalin and the 71 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: KGB which were which were manifest More interestingly, I think 72 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: it was to look at the Aldre his case in 73 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: terms of free generations of an American family, with the 74 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: patriarch of the family, Judge Dimmock, who had who had 75 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: defended Aldre Hiss uh in the day, and his writing 76 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: his memoir, and he enlists his grandson George Alban who's 77 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: a print ston astrophysicists, to help him finish the memoir 78 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: and figure out what the truth is. And in fact, 79 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: when the story opens, Um, it's right after nine eleven 80 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: the year after nine eleven, the judge doesn't even know 81 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: the new information that's come out on aldre Hiss. He 82 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: doesn't know about the access to Soviet intelligence files or 83 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: the Venona decrypts of Soviet cable traffic, which by two 84 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: thousand had made it clear that aldre Hiss was a 85 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: spy and more importantly, an agent of influence. So all 86 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: of a sudden, Edward Dimmick learned this that in fact 87 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: his client was indubitably guilty of the of the crimes 88 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: that he was convicted for, and and a lot more. 89 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: And I wanted to have show how that played out 90 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: in three generations of the family. So you have the George, 91 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: you have the Judge so Or and his three daughters 92 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: and his grandchildren who are involved in going through the 93 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: elements of the Algre His Spy case. And we see 94 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: how each generation had reacted to the story. And we 95 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: find out as the story evolves that the impact of 96 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: the Algre His case did terrible damage in the family. 97 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: It impacted the judge and his wife's marriage, UH, it 98 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: impacted their their three children, one of them Um, the 99 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: son who goes off to Korea. UH. And so I 100 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: wanted to humanize it, and also there is in the 101 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: book there are letters from Priscilla Hiss, there are people 102 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: who have talked to algre His, So we do get 103 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: a certain insight um into algre His and his family life, 104 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: his his son, um and his wife. Why. I think 105 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: by humanizing it, you make it not just clearer in 106 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: terms of what the truth is, but also how the 107 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: truth plays itself out over free generations of of an 108 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: American family. Now, that's really interesting and it makes me 109 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: wonder when you're writing a work like this that's based on, 110 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: you know, real historical facts and also relatively recently uncovered 111 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: details that kind of re contextualized one of those historical facts, 112 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: how do you decide where the sort of new story 113 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: that you're going to tell is where it comes from, 114 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: which parts need to remain just like steadfast truth, and 115 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: which parts can kind of meander a little bit to 116 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: serve your narrative. Well, for the most part, I like 117 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: to think that night percent of the facts in the 118 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: book are accurate, and uh they have been. They've come 119 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: out recently from the owner decrypts and the access to 120 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: Soviet era files, So most of the history is accurate. 121 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: Where I have as a novelist taken charge of of 122 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: the narrative is when I've gone into the heads, say 123 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: of Priscilla Hiss. Priscilla Hiss his letters um, and she 124 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: talks about in her letters how difficult it was, although 125 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: we don't know if she's really being truthful about this. 126 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: That the fastest. One of the most fascinating things about 127 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: the trial was that Whittwaker Chambers, who testified against Hiss, 128 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: testified about his years of being involved with his family. 129 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: They went on vacation together, they went bird watching together, 130 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: they spied together, they did all this stuff. He took 131 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 1: their documents and photographed them, brought them back in the morning, 132 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: They had meals together. They were friends. Whittaker Chambers actually 133 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: was was very fond of Aldre his and Priscilla his. 134 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: And yet Priscilla Hiss writes at least letters that I 135 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 1: used in the book, how difficult it was to be 136 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: faced by Whittaker chambers uh testimony and the trial. And 137 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: later in the book he wrote Witness where he talks 138 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: about their life together as friends of the family and this, 139 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: that and the next thing, and she says, gosh, so 140 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 1: much of it was just like the kind of people 141 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: we were I understood it, and yet he's lying. And 142 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: that brings in the idea that I used in the 143 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: Book of Parallel Universes, which is where our Princeton astrophysics 144 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: UM guy George Altman is brought in. Because there's two 145 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: worlds out there. There's the world where aldre Hiss is 146 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: guilty in the the world where aldre Hiss is innocent, 147 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: and the two worlds collide and they don't overlap. And 148 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: how you figure out which is which, I think makes 149 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: the narrative pretty interesting. And there's a there's another question 150 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: on this note I'd like to I'd like to explore 151 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: with you. Speaking of parallel worlds, David, you stand astride 152 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: a few parallel worlds of your own. You are an 153 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: art historian, UH extensively published art historian. I'm thinking in 154 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: particular of a history of American Tonalism, which I believe 155 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: has been published in three different additions at this point. 156 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: How do you and I can I I can experience 157 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: um your I can experience your love of art and 158 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: history in in reading Gods of Deception, UM and Times. Betrayal, 159 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: by the way, is next on my list. But what 160 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: drew you to historical fiction? From the world of art history. 161 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: Do you feel that those are um somehow separate or 162 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: distinct pursuits or do they inform one another, and if so, 163 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: in what ways they do inform each other? But at 164 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: the same time, there's no way I could be working 165 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: on an art history project and writing a work of 166 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: fiction at the same time. They're very different muscles, very 167 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: different kind of brains. I think. Starting with the art history, 168 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: I like telling the stories about artists and bringing artists 169 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: to life and bringing their works to life. I like 170 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: that narrative context. And what I did, uh in the 171 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: History of American Tonnalism, which is about American landscape painting 172 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: from around eighteen eighty and nineteen twenty, was bring that 173 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: whole world back to life and the great artists of 174 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: that period that would be Georgianist and William McNeil Whistler, 175 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: among others. Uh and uh this was largely forgotten talk 176 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: about times betrayal, uh the title of a novel. These 177 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: guys were forgotten about for about seventy years until I 178 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 1: came along and kind of wrote the book on them 179 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: and sort of brought that world back. So I liked 180 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: getting justice for great artists. I liked the feeling that 181 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: there is justice in this life and that these artists 182 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: and their reputations can be revived for for future generations. 183 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: At the same time, I find in writing fiction that 184 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: my love of landscape painting in particular UH informs my writing, 185 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: and that I like to feel that any given moment, 186 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: any um, any chapter, any scene that's set in the book, 187 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: that you can feel the quality of the light, the temperature, 188 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: the humidity, the sea, and um, that those ephemeral atmospheric 189 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: elements that are that one loves in great landscape paintings 190 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: can inform the writing as well, getting the reader a 191 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: feeling that they're there and that the sense of time 192 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: and place is very real. I think that's a really 193 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: good way of putting it. You know, I wanted to 194 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: ask you. I'm a huge something Ben and I and 195 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: and Max are all huge fans of art and art 196 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: museums and you know, graphic novels and just there's so 197 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: many ways that it can be used to tell amazing stories. 198 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: I am a fan of being able to walk into 199 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: a gallery, look at a piece of art, and have 200 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: it affected me viscerally. I think it's really interesting and 201 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: and and and an important thing to have some historical 202 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: context or to know a little bit about the artist 203 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: who made it and maybe what inspired them. But I 204 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: think ultimately it's not successful if it doesn't hit me 205 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: in some way, and just by looking at it, can 206 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: you kind of talk about that, like the sort of 207 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: like viscerality of art and the way it affects you, 208 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: just like cold versus having that context, and how those 209 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: two things can coexist. I think that's right. I think 210 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: that going into a gallery uh. And I've been involved 211 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: in the art world one way or the other for 212 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: many years. My son, Carter Cleveland is the founder of 213 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: artsy dot net, which is the largest on site art 214 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: site in the world now for buying and selling and 215 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: studying and finding out about art. So we've been involved 216 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: with art for a long time. And I'm a great 217 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: believer that art really, uh enhances our life. Living with 218 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: art enhances our life. That having art on the walls 219 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: is important not just for the good effect it has 220 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: on your own life, but because you're supporting artists living 221 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: or dead, or or however it may be. And I 222 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: agree with you that I think that one's reaction to 223 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: art is fundamentally visceral. Uh. You either love it or 224 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: you don't, and there's certain things that are gonna grab 225 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: you or not. I think that having some background on 226 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: the artists and some background on their time helps you 227 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: in terms of your ability to see the world and 228 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: the the or if you will have a narrative background 229 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: that produced that are and that may eventually help you 230 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: evolve certain ways to like different kinds of art from 231 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: what you may be used to or what you're you're 232 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: drawn to viscerally. But in the end, uh, it's really 233 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: your eyeballs, bathing your eyeballs and the beauty of art 234 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: that matters. And Uh, in the end, that's the great 235 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: joy and the great pleasure to be had bathing your eyeballs. Yeah, 236 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: this is going to recur on our show, sir. This 237 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: is an know the time is flying away from us 238 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: and I can only imagine how how strange it must 239 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 1: be to have um to have works like Gods of 240 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: Deception out in the world, which was published just in 241 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: April of this year. Correct, Uh? Is that correct? So 242 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: when you have you know, it must be similar to 243 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: the experience of walking out of another universe into you know, 244 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: or like seeing an amazing exhibition or seeing works of 245 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 1: the old masters and then walking out into the world. 246 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: And this inspires one of one of our last questions 247 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: as we wrap up, what do what do we ideally 248 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: want the readers and the audience to come away with 249 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: from the experience of Gods of Deception? Do we what 250 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: do we as readers take forward into the greater world? Well, 251 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: I think that God's Deception, both as the historical novel 252 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: and as a work of fiction, should make us aware 253 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: of the dangers. Certainly that the Soviet Union once upon 254 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: a time post along with the KGB, and I think 255 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: uh speaking of going from one world to the next, uh, 256 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: leaving the world of God's of Deception and then finding 257 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: us right back in that same world with Putin's invasion 258 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: of Ukraine. Because the title God's of Deception speaks to 259 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: the mentality of many of the Soviet agents who and 260 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: the KGB, who thought themselves in the forefront of history 261 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: that they were going to revolutionize the world and they 262 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: were going to become the heads of stay or they 263 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: were gonna overturn uh countries by the power of their 264 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: revolutionary ideas. So UH, for me, I have found that 265 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: God's of Deception came out right during the Putin's invasion 266 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: of the Ukraine, and Putin being a great admirer of 267 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: Stalin and being trained by the KGB. His entire leadership 268 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: circle are all x KGB agents. They know the ropes, 269 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: they used, the same false flags, big lies, you name it, 270 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: ultimately backed up by brutal force that Stalin was so 271 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: adept at. So Putin is still there, and the ways 272 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union are still there. And I think 273 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: the only reason that I'm hopeful at this point in 274 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: terms of Putin in the Ukraine is that we seem 275 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: to evolve to the point where defensive warfare seems to 276 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: be in the ascendency with smart weapons, and I think 277 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: the Ukrainians are managing to put up a terrific fight 278 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: against the Russians and against Putin, and hopefully with the 279 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 1: ascendancy of defensive weapons, it's gonna make the Russian invasion 280 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: increasingly more devastating for Putin and that in the end 281 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: he will fail and hopefully his people will overthrow him. 282 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: And I think the Chinese will think twice about the 283 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: possibility of invading Taiwan at this point, again seeing what's 284 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: happened in the Ukraine. So the gut world of God's 285 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: deception is still with us. There are still lessons to 286 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: be learned. But at the same time, uh, I think um, 287 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: from a literary standpoint, the humanity of this one American 288 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: family and the trials that they went through, UM, through 289 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: the altra his years and where they came out in 290 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: the end is a hopeful uh one for the for 291 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: the future. I gotta ask you really quickly a little 292 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: bit of for a bit of a hot take. Do 293 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: you think Putin bit off more than he can shoe? 294 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: Do you think he knew what he was doing? Was 295 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: it just sort of a power play that was ill 296 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: informed or uh, it just seems like people are not 297 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 1: behind him in his own government and things are just 298 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: going horribly awry. Is he making a decision based on 299 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: the past that no longer like he's sort of out 300 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: of his element now? Like? What what do you think 301 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: is going on with Putin? Now? I think Putin was 302 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: absolutely devastated, surprised by what happened on the initial months 303 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: of the invasion of Ukraine, how his forces were really 304 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: just taken apart piece by piece. I think he was amazed, 305 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,479 Speaker 1: I thought he I think he probably thought, oh, this 306 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: is just gonna be another great KGB operation. We're gonna 307 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: run in there and we're gonna overthrow KiB and it 308 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: will be over in a in in a few days. 309 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 1: I think he was. He was mightily surprised. On the 310 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: other hand, being a KGB guy, being the head of 311 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: a totalitarian government. He's got no place to go, no 312 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: place to hide. He cannot retire from the scene. He's 313 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: got nothing that he can do except keep fighting in 314 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: the Ukraine for the time being until something gives way, 315 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: either his army, his military, or his intelligence service, or 316 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: the people of Russia turn on him and throw him out. Yeah, 317 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: it's uh. The situation is untenable, and I agree with 318 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: you that there is a there is not a viable 319 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: retreat option at this point. Perhaps emboldened by Um by 320 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: the invasion of Crimea in this calculus that informed Putin 321 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: based on the events of provided in his mind a 322 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: rational expective for for an invasion, and let's be honest, 323 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: speaking of hot takes Um a chance to realize the 324 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: dream of creating a new Soviet hegemony. However, I'm looking 325 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: for the right way to say this, David. The the 326 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: thing that many characters in God's deception and the thing 327 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: that Vladimir Putin himself is wrestling with now is the 328 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: idea of perception in a bubble right, um, being being 329 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: a tyrant, being a strong man. Uh. It's it's no 330 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: secret that Putin is likely surrounded by syncophants and as 331 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: a result, has a very different experience of reality right 332 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: than most people outside of that bubble. Do you believe that? Um? 333 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: What would be your insight on this idea? It's tossed 334 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: around so often. Do you feel that um world leaders 335 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: um from Putin to you know, the recently recently deposed 336 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: Boris Johnson, prime minister over there in the UK. Um, 337 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: do you believe that people in power may live in 338 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: bubbles of reality? And if so, why how well? I 339 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: think Putin is a special case because he's been living 340 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: in a in your bubble of reality maybe most of 341 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: his life. I mean, he grew up, he learned his uh, 342 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,239 Speaker 1: he learned all of his brutal tactics and ways as 343 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: a KGB officer. And when Russia fell apart a part, 344 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: he lost his job, he lost prestige, he lost all 345 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: kinds of things, and uh, he has a vaunted sense 346 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 1: of of Russian history. I mean, after all, Russian aggression 347 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: goes back to Catherine the Great and before that, so 348 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: it's not just the Soviet Union. Um. Russia has a 349 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: history of of of expansion. But I think that Putin 350 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: certainly in the last five years, has been up against 351 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: the West and what he's seen is weakness that the 352 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 1: West has rolled over to his aggression, whether it's in 353 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: Georgia or Crimea. Uh, and he's been He's gotten away 354 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: with it time and time again, because most people in 355 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: the West just think, well, could wars over? People don't 356 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: act like that anymore. But the fact of the matter 357 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: is aggression, evil intent, megalomania. All of these terrible things 358 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: can come back in different guises, and Putin certainly has 359 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: them all. And uh, I think you know, he lives 360 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: in a bubble, but he can get away with a 361 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: lot of stuff. And the West is let him get 362 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: away with it too long. So he took a gamble, 363 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,239 Speaker 1: and this time the gamble is not paying off at 364 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: least easily. Let's let's hope that the Russian people will 365 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: put him in his place and and get rid of it. 366 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us 367 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: and talking about your book, which I look forward to 368 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: reading and its entirety, and for all of this amazing 369 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,479 Speaker 1: perspective on everything from art to current politics and everything 370 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: in between. It's been a real, real delight talking with you, 371 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: Benn and Noel. Thank you so much. It's been fun 372 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: for me as well. Oh wonderful. Thank you for classing 373 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: up the show. David these this is uh. This conversation, 374 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: Asnal said, has led us through so many fascinating parts 375 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: of history, parts of art, parts of geopolitics, and I 376 00:26:53,880 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: believe it's a conversation that is worth pursuing. Fellow ridiculous historians. 377 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: You would like to learn more about the work of 378 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: David Adams Cleveland, please check out the website David Adams 379 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: Cleveland dot com. It's uh, it's where I started stalking 380 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: you in the beginning, sir, and um, it's where I 381 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: have learned already uh so much about about history. Again. 382 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: I'm excited for Times Betrayal. I want to read it. 383 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: I saw some of the reviews I said, I was 384 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: again a fanboy too much, But uh, sir, thank you 385 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: sincerely for your time. We're looking forward to hearing more 386 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 1: about the next works. In the meanwhile, where's one of 387 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: the best places for people to learn more about your works, current, 388 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 1: past and perhaps future well, As you mentioned, probably the 389 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: best starting place is my h is my author side, 390 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 1: David Adams Cleveland dot com, and from there you go 391 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: right to the books. There's articles certainly on my author 392 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: side as well. I've probably done I think eight or 393 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: nine articles around God's Deception, which gives you some background 394 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: into the history of the algra his case, but also 395 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: how I researched it, so you can find all that 396 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: kind of good stuff there. And then I've written a 397 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: bunch of articles about writing fictions, so for aspiring writers 398 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: and historians there's some good thoughts there. So all are 399 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: welcome and Uh, I'm delighted to be on your show 400 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: and help out any way. I can thank you again, 401 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: And in the meantime, listeners, if you have anything you 402 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: want to ask us about or topics you want to 403 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: see us cover, you can hit Ben or up. As 404 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: individual human people on the Internet, I am on Instagram 405 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: exclusively at how now Noel Brown, Ben Boland. Where can 406 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: the find folks out in the internet world find you? Oh? No, 407 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: thank you so much for asking Uh. In a burst 408 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: of creativity, you can buy me on Instagram where I'm 409 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: at ben Bowling b o w l I n uh. 410 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: If you are more Twitter inclined, you can find me 411 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: at ben Bowling hs W. The big win for people 412 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: on Twitter is that there you can also find our 413 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: very own super producer, Mr Max Williams. Yes, you can 414 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: find me at Ahl Underscore Max Williams. That is my 415 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: address on Twitter. Thanks as always to Max Williams. Thanks 416 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: to our composer. We have a composer, Mr Alex Williams thinking. 417 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: Thanks again to Mr David A. Cleveland. Uh noll. This 418 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: this is one of those uh. This is one of 419 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: those conversations that makes our collective day. I think it's true. 420 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: It's one that's hard, hard to wrap up, but you 421 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: gotta do it. People got stuff to do. It's Friday. Um, 422 00:29:53,280 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 423 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 424 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.