Speaker 1: Y'all already know that navigating the online world can be
Speaker 1: tricky and complicated. That's why here at there are new
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. We just launched a brand new
Speaker 1: newsletter where I'll be taking your Internet questions and conundrums.
Speaker 1: To subscribe and submit a question, just go to Tangoti
Speaker 1: dot com slash newsletter and I can't wait to connect
Speaker 1: with you there. Just a quick heads up, this episode
Speaker 1: was filmed while I was on medical bedrest, so it
Speaker 1: might sound a little bit different in terms of sound
Speaker 1: quality than the rest of our episodes. There Are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet as a production of My Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. There's a lot
Speaker 1: going on at Netflix. For the first time in over
Speaker 1: a decade, the streaming service lost subscribers. Netflix lost about
Speaker 1: two subscribers, were originally expected to gain two point five million,
Speaker 1: and they also said that they expect to lose two
Speaker 1: million more subscribers in the second quarter. So who is
Speaker 1: Netflix blaming for this poor showing us the viewers for
Speaker 1: sharing passwords. But Gizmodo spoke to media analyst Michael Patcher,
Speaker 1: who is pretty dubious of the idea that sharing passwords
Speaker 1: is to blame, saying it's just the dumbest idea whatsoever.
Speaker 1: Incidents of passwords sharing did not grow materially during the quarter.
Speaker 1: They've always known about it, he said, and Netflix pretty
Speaker 1: much agreed. The company acknowledged that a letter to investors
Speaker 1: that account sharing as a percentage of our paying membership
Speaker 1: hasn't changed much over the years, So, as Oprah might say,
Speaker 1: what is the truth? Netflix laid off a hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty staffers, about two percent of the United States workforce,
Speaker 1: many of whom are black, brown, queer, and trans staffers
Speaker 1: who were specifically corded from other jobs to lead initiatives
Speaker 1: that champion inclusion at Netflix. Layoffs gutted popular programs like
Speaker 1: Strong Black Lead, a vertical for black content, which is
Speaker 1: often held up as a shining example of how to
Speaker 1: market and build community around inclusive content. Other verticals that
Speaker 1: focus on content specifically for marginalized communities were also gutted
Speaker 1: by layoffs, like the Latin X focused Contoto, Asian American
Speaker 1: Focus Golden, and the LGBTQ focused vertical. Most now, it's
Speaker 1: unclear what will happen to these initiatives or to inclusive
Speaker 1: content at Netflix going forward. But the company may have
Speaker 1: given us a little bit of a hint in a
Speaker 1: recent update to their culture memo, which basically says if
Speaker 1: staffers don't want to associate with offensive content they may
Speaker 1: put out, they should just quit. It says, if you'd
Speaker 1: find it hard to support our content breadth, Netflix may
Speaker 1: not be the best place for you now. This is
Speaker 1: probably a reference to content like Dave Chappelle's Netflix comedy
Speaker 1: special that led the staff walkouts and turmoil last fall.
Speaker 1: B Paggles Minor, a black, trans then pregnant Netflix employee
Speaker 1: who was fired when the company accused them of leaking
Speaker 1: the fact that Netflix paid Dave Chappelle twenty four point
Speaker 1: one million dollars for us comedy special that included transphobic content.
Speaker 1: B gave us lots of good insight into the culture
Speaker 1: at Netflix. So let's revisit our conversation from this best ball.
Speaker 1: After the release of Dave Chappelle's new comedy special The
Speaker 1: Closer on Netflix, Netflix staffers and their allies spoke up
Speaker 1: about the specials transphobic material and organized to walk out.
Speaker 1: Chappelle doubled down in a newly released clip where he
Speaker 1: said Netflix desk that they wanted a safer work environment,
Speaker 1: but that he's the only one who's not able to
Speaker 1: get into the building at Netflix anymore. I'm the only
Speaker 1: one that can't go to the office anymore. But you
Speaker 1: want to know someone who most definitely cannot get back
Speaker 1: into the Netflix building. B Paggles Minor, a very pregnant
Speaker 1: black transformer program manager who Netflix fired for alleging they
Speaker 1: were the source of a Bloomberg article about just how
Speaker 1: much money Netflix spent on the special. Now Be disputes this,
Speaker 1: as do their coworkers, and even after B was fired,
Speaker 1: Bloomberg continues to publish new internal metrics from Netflix, making
Speaker 1: it even more unlikely. B along with Terra Field, a
Speaker 1: trans Netflix senior software engineer who was suspended for tweeting
Speaker 1: critically about the special, have filed suits with the National
Speaker 1: Labor Relations Board, saying that netflix engage in activity took
Speaker 1: well employees from speaking up about working conditions, including seeking
Speaker 1: to create a safe and affirming work environment, speaking up
Speaker 1: about Netflix products and the impact its product choices have
Speaker 1: on the LGBTQ community, and providing support for employees whom
Speaker 1: Netflix has treated in an unlawful and disparate manner. And
Speaker 1: as much as Dave Chappelle keeps talking about how he's
Speaker 1: being canceled, you know, naturally as one does from a
Speaker 1: massive stage in front of a massive adoring audience while
Speaker 1: earning millions for it, the demands of the Netflix staffers
Speaker 1: who walked out do not include asking Netflix to take
Speaker 1: down the comedy special. Instead, Netflix staffers are asking for
Speaker 1: things like comparable investment and trans and non binary lead
Speaker 1: projects at Netflix, and more trans and non binary people
Speaker 1: in leadership positions. B is clear that this is about
Speaker 1: so much more than one comedy special. So my name
Speaker 1: is b pagals minor my pronounders they them there's and
Speaker 1: my current title is growing a Baby, And that's about it.
Speaker 1: So I read your Washington Post piece and I read
Speaker 1: the piece on your blog. Both of literally talked about
Speaker 1: this journey for you really kind of fully embrace in
Speaker 1: who you are. And I guess one of my questions
Speaker 1: for you was like, what was it like to feel
Speaker 1: seen in that way? You know, um to share this
Speaker 1: truth about yourself? Like were you did you feel seen
Speaker 1: working at Netflix? Was this something that you know felt
Speaker 1: it felt like a good fit. Yeah. You know, it's
Speaker 1: really interesting because I would say yes and though right,
Speaker 1: so like, in terms of the internal environment and Netflix,
Speaker 1: I definitely felt like I had a lot of support
Speaker 1: to be a black person, a trance person, a lesbian,
Speaker 1: you know, loud, you know, someone who dissents very loudly,
Speaker 1: things like that. But but one of the complaints I've
Speaker 1: always had, and something that obviously is coming up again here,
Speaker 1: is the lack of content. So it was so strange
Speaker 1: to be like this internal employee, feel pretty validated, feel
Speaker 1: pretty supported. But then when I looked at the things
Speaker 1: around screen, I didn't see anything that looked like me,
Speaker 1: and that coinn of dissonance was one of the things
Speaker 1: that bothered me most about working there, Right, you know,
Speaker 1: I really wanted to say, like, you know, fresh long
Speaker 1: from Mississippi, they are black, the actually the majority of
Speaker 1: Mississippi is black, right, the majority of Mississippi is also rule.
Speaker 1: You know, why don't we have shows about that? I
Speaker 1: watched pe Valley last year and it was so funny
Speaker 1: because my friends were like, p Valley doesn't seem like
Speaker 1: your type of show. I was like, it's about it's
Speaker 1: about black people Mississippi. I was so excited. I was like,
Speaker 1: I was like, I finally get to see people who
Speaker 1: are like my family, who who that I grew up around.
Speaker 1: And so it was always like that that a little
Speaker 1: bit of like, yes, I feel good because of a
Speaker 1: great benefits, have a great salary, I get to be loud,
Speaker 1: I'm doing some of the best work of my life.
Speaker 1: But no, because I really feel like we're missing the
Speaker 1: mark on showing representative lives of diverse types of people.
Speaker 1: Conversations around identity and representation at Netflix did not start
Speaker 1: with Dave Chappelle. Internally, Netflix staffers have been pushing these
Speaker 1: conversations about whose story gets told and by who and
Speaker 1: how for years. Like many companies, Netflix has employee resource
Speaker 1: groups or e r g s, employee lead initiatives within
Speaker 1: a company that work to create inclusivity along certain demographics
Speaker 1: and identities. There's Dream at Netflix to champion immigrant representation,
Speaker 1: Black at Netflix, lah I Am at Netflix, for Jewish
Speaker 1: representation Netflix, pre Veteran representation, Indigenous at Netflix, and more.
Speaker 1: Trans Star is the e r G that champions trans
Speaker 1: identity and representation at Netflix. That be helped lead and
Speaker 1: after the release of the film Girl a twenty nineteen
Speaker 1: Belgian film about a trans ballet dancer that faced criticism
Speaker 1: for its depiction of things like body dysmorphia and self
Speaker 1: harm in the trans community. It's so easy for people
Speaker 1: to think that these conversations happening internally around Netflix and
Speaker 1: the and the content they produced, so and sort of
Speaker 1: the way that the content represents or does not represent
Speaker 1: all folks, you know, trans identities, all of that. It's
Speaker 1: easy to think that those conversations began and ended with
Speaker 1: this Dave Chappelle's special. But we know that's not true.
Speaker 1: Can you give me a little bit of a history
Speaker 1: lesson of where these conversations that Netflix actually did start.
Speaker 1: So the trans specific conversation started around the release of Girl.
Speaker 1: So the Girl movie, it was definitely it was a
Speaker 1: misrepresentation of trans culture. And that's when you know, it
Speaker 1: was almost three years ago. That's when people first started
Speaker 1: asking questions about, hey, like, why do we put that
Speaker 1: out there? This is harmful content. It's not true. It's
Speaker 1: a terrible representation of trans culture. Separately, I was also
Speaker 1: the e r G e r D lead for Black
Speaker 1: At right, and the Black at is the oldest e
Speaker 1: r G out of all the r g s and
Speaker 1: they've been talking about that for like six or seven years, right,
Speaker 1: So the six or seven years they've been talking about
Speaker 1: black content, black representation, making sure contents there. So the
Speaker 1: conversation around content and having it be representative is in
Speaker 1: the d n A of Netflix. For diverse people who
Speaker 1: have worked there, the question has simply been why the
Speaker 1: heck has it not moved forward? Like, why the heck
Speaker 1: have we not gotten to the point that the content
Speaker 1: really reflects all of this This internal debate, internal conversation
Speaker 1: that's been been very very robust, and in fact, when
Speaker 1: you actually think about it, you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: the comments that have been made is, oh, well, Netflix
Speaker 1: is one of the first places that ever had a
Speaker 1: trans person. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, we know when
Speaker 1: Verne was on Orange as a new Black you know,
Speaker 1: we we know you know, know me from since a
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you can only name two
Speaker 1: or three that's probably not a good way to go
Speaker 1: about this, you know. And then we also know when
Speaker 1: Laverne was the Orangines and New Bloods, they were dubbing
Speaker 1: her words with men in other countries. What, yes, they
Speaker 1: really did not know that and it was so offensive
Speaker 1: and for instance, trans Star is another great example when
Speaker 1: trans Star was consulted by the dubbing team and they
Speaker 1: were like, so, how should we deal with this in
Speaker 1: the future, And we were like, well, you know, we
Speaker 1: understand that in different countries, in different languages, it might
Speaker 1: be difficult to find someone who perfectly matches someone's voice.
Speaker 1: And if that is the case, just ask the person
Speaker 1: what they think, you know, don't don't just make an
Speaker 1: arbitrary decision, seek out, support, create relationships, and honor people
Speaker 1: by letting them be representing the way that makes most
Speaker 1: sense to them, right. You know, that actually brings up
Speaker 1: a good point, which is that I was very surprised
Speaker 1: to hear that the trans Employee Resource Group was not
Speaker 1: really consulted at all and the rollout of this special
Speaker 1: And so part of me was like, why even have
Speaker 1: this group at Netflix if you're not going to actually
Speaker 1: empower them to be involved when things like this are
Speaker 1: rolled out. And so, for the sake of argument, let's
Speaker 1: say that the trans Employee Resource Group had been consulted
Speaker 1: during this rollout. Are there things that you could have
Speaker 1: seen y'all actually like suggesting to make this less harmful? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's been that's actually been the number one point here,
Speaker 1: Like there's no desire to stop creative freedom, right, Like
Speaker 1: the simple fact is their contracts. You you move forward
Speaker 1: with the content based on those contracts. But there's no
Speaker 1: desire to stop things. And so when I, you know,
Speaker 1: thought about it, when I first saw it, I was
Speaker 1: just like, why did you all decide to release this
Speaker 1: in October during lgbt Q plus history up, Like that's
Speaker 1: a terrible idea. You know, why did you not think
Speaker 1: about the term turf and how that? Because that became
Speaker 1: the the like Clackson, like that became the thing that
Speaker 1: everyone was focused on. And in fact, it was the
Speaker 1: external groups who were just like, you know, Dave Chappelle's
Speaker 1: a turf. Netflix released this. It was all external people
Speaker 1: who were completely incensed that they saw something like that.
Speaker 1: And so it's like, you know, we could have said,
Speaker 1: you know, the trans Star group could have said, by
Speaker 1: the way, you may want to just cut that joke,
Speaker 1: like you know, you may want to like you know,
Speaker 1: tweak that or like asked. And the thing is, and
Speaker 1: when I say that, I mean talk to Dave about
Speaker 1: it and say, Dave, your bigger point is this, like
Speaker 1: lgbt Q plus movement versus black movement, and your point
Speaker 1: is gonna get lost because of this statement, right, And
Speaker 1: so it's about making the content get to his point
Speaker 1: versus having all of this fure around it. And so
Speaker 1: that's the thing. That's what trands Star does, That's what
Speaker 1: trains Star has always offered to do. One of the
Speaker 1: other things that I did is trying to star our
Speaker 1: lead was also to meet with content executives and all
Speaker 1: and I called it the friendship offensive. And all we
Speaker 1: would do is go have conversations with these folks and say, hey,
Speaker 1: we're humans, we're great, we can help you make great content.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna tell you some of the pieces of
Speaker 1: you know, productions that we worked on. I know for
Speaker 1: a fact that they're so much better because we just
Speaker 1: sat down with those people and told them different ways,
Speaker 1: and they would send us emails and say what do
Speaker 1: you think of this? What do you think of that?
Speaker 1: And all we did was consult, you know. It was
Speaker 1: never oh like, you know, we are the the we
Speaker 1: are the barrier to this amazing thing being created. It
Speaker 1: was how can we make it better so that Netflix's
Speaker 1: reputation isn't harm so that trans people aren't harm and
Speaker 1: so that people get a good message out of it.
Speaker 1: That's such a good point, because the only thing I
Speaker 1: have heard about this UH comedy special is the transphobia
Speaker 1: and the turf comments and the and the JK rounding
Speaker 1: comments whatever. The other point David's trying to make it
Speaker 1: did not reach me. It did not reach Twitter, and
Speaker 1: I don't I have to wonder like was that actually hit?
Speaker 1: Like I I feel like if he had been open
Speaker 1: to be thought partners with you all especially, would have
Speaker 1: been that much better, that much more, you know, just
Speaker 1: that much more truthful and authentic. And it's like, what
Speaker 1: a missed opportunity to make something better and also less harmful,
Speaker 1: Like what a win win that was just missed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean one of the things I saw someone tweaked.
Speaker 1: They were like, I haven't seen anyone dropped a video,
Speaker 1: a gift, a meme of the special. They had a
Speaker 1: joke in it, and they were like, how can the
Speaker 1: special be successful if they haven't dropped the single one?
Speaker 1: And I was like, you have a point. They've only
Speaker 1: dropped the really incendiary things and so go and so
Speaker 1: to your point is true, Like you know, I do
Speaker 1: feel like the special could have been so much more
Speaker 1: powerful if there had been that partnership, because I do
Speaker 1: think I understand what he's trying to say. I disagree
Speaker 1: with it, right like. And I would say this because
Speaker 1: to a certain instance, the Specials trying to pick LGBTQ
Speaker 1: plus versus a civil rights movement. I am a black
Speaker 1: trans person. I'm at the intersection of these two groups.
Speaker 1: I get screwed over by both groups, right like like
Speaker 1: like legitimately I get screwed over by both groups, and
Speaker 1: so like, I do think that this oppressional olympics, like
Speaker 1: one movement hurting another movement. I don't think that's true.
Speaker 1: In fact, if you think about the same sex marriage
Speaker 1: law that went into affect many years ago, they actually,
Speaker 1: you know, use Loving versus Virginia as part of their
Speaker 1: their logic behind it, because they're saying that minority individuals
Speaker 1: deserve the same rights as anyone else in this country.
Speaker 1: And so I actually think that both the civil rights
Speaker 1: movement lgbt Q rights movement movement are in like, they're
Speaker 1: intrinsically leaning, and we would be empowered by uniting them
Speaker 1: versus assuming that one happens over the other one and
Speaker 1: it just I mean, I completely agree, we're we're definitely
Speaker 1: our movements are stronger together when we support each other,
Speaker 1: and it completely erases people at the intersections, like yourself.
Speaker 1: As something about Dave's comedy seems to suggest that lgbt
Speaker 1: l g it's like that book, all the women are white,
Speaker 1: all the men are black, right, Like, all the LGBTQ
Speaker 1: folks are just default white, all of the black folks
Speaker 1: are default CIS, And it's like it completely erases that
Speaker 1: people exist at those intersections in a way that I
Speaker 1: feel like it's so like n like like get your
Speaker 1: get your attitudes and your ideas into two thousand into one,
Speaker 1: you know, exactly exactly, and the simple effect is and
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was time like three or
Speaker 1: four years ago they were talking about what the future
Speaker 1: of the world's gonna look like, and all those people
Speaker 1: have meling it okay, right, like that's I mean, let's
Speaker 1: just be truthful the way that the world is actually changing,
Speaker 1: the way that it's actually evolving. I mean, even gen Z,
Speaker 1: such a large percentage of gen Z around the world
Speaker 1: is completely open to not only lgbt Q plus people,
Speaker 1: but they're coming out increasingly earlier, right, so you know
Speaker 1: you have like no eight, twelve, fifteen, sixteen, you know
Speaker 1: year olds come out and say, yeah, I'm a part
Speaker 1: of the lgbt Q plus community, which is not something
Speaker 1: that has ever happened before. The world is changing rapidly
Speaker 1: right into the fact that we continue to have these
Speaker 1: very antiquated conversations. It's just very disturbing to me, and
Speaker 1: it's a sign of how some people are, Like this
Speaker 1: is why you have to be thoughtful and you have
Speaker 1: to listen, right, Like I am now considering elder, like
Speaker 1: because you know, I'm over a certain age. I'm an
Speaker 1: elder now right in my community, because in the trans
Speaker 1: community most like so, there's been a statistic that says
Speaker 1: that many black trans people do not make it to
Speaker 1: the age of thirty five. I am not over thirty five,
Speaker 1: So I'm like a grandparent. Like that's how that's how
Speaker 1: they perceive me. And it's just so interesting to me
Speaker 1: because even for me, I have to take a step
Speaker 1: back and listen to the younger people because they're like,
Speaker 1: you're more conservative than I am. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I guess I am right, because I grew up in
Speaker 1: a completely different generation I came out much later because
Speaker 1: I was afraid, and you don't have that through mechanism
Speaker 1: that keeps you from being your whole self. And I
Speaker 1: actually admire you. What do you mean me to help
Speaker 1: you with? Because you're so much further along than I was,
Speaker 1: and all I'm trying to do is make sure you
Speaker 1: have a stage place that's beautiful. First of all, I
Speaker 1: would have never thought you were over thirty five. That's
Speaker 1: so beautiful, you know, So this is that's black, It's
Speaker 1: so true. Let's take a quick break. There are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet is doing a live show on
Speaker 1: May at Caveat in New York City and virtually from
Speaker 1: wherever you're at. We'll have amazing guests, a meet and greet,
Speaker 1: and much much more. Go to tane got dot com
Speaker 1: slash Live and get your tickets and I cannot wait
Speaker 1: to see you there at our Back in Eddie Murphy
Speaker 1: released to stand up Special Eddie Murphy Raw and Murphy
Speaker 1: has this whole bit about how gay people didn't like
Speaker 1: his home with public jokes and how whenever he goes
Speaker 1: out to parties or out on the town he feels
Speaker 1: like there's going to be a gay mob out looking
Speaker 1: for him, only he doesn't say gay people. He uses
Speaker 1: a slur. And it won't be no siren to be
Speaker 1: real facts. And now, something about this line, the idea
Speaker 1: of a gay person strapped at the top of a
Speaker 1: car as a siren, really stuck with me. And the
Speaker 1: takeaway from me when I was watching was that gay
Speaker 1: people are basically less than human and that pointing this
Speaker 1: out is funny. I mean, like, listen to this crowd.
Speaker 1: They were loving it, and I interpreted that making fun
Speaker 1: of gay people was a clear pathway to acceptance from others. Now,
Speaker 1: I was watching this when I was just a kid.
Speaker 1: I'd already known that something was up with me, but
Speaker 1: I had not yet come the terms with being a
Speaker 1: queer person. And I watched the way that these kinds
Speaker 1: of jokes about gay people got Eddie Murphy so much loud,
Speaker 1: clear acceptance from other black people, And it was confusing
Speaker 1: to me at a time when I was already really confused.
Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, and he wore if you actually be
Speaker 1: visited his past homophole bit comedy routines. In an interview
Speaker 1: with The New York Times, he said that he looks
Speaker 1: back at all those old jokes and cringes. I was
Speaker 1: a young guy processing a broken heart and kind of
Speaker 1: an asshole, he said. He apologized for spreading homophobia and
Speaker 1: ignorant comments about HIV, saying that he's much more educated now.
Speaker 1: I now have a whole lifetime of experiences to draw upon.
Speaker 1: There was a time when I was at the center
Speaker 1: of everything, what I was doing, and how funny I was,
Speaker 1: and how popular I was. I'm not the center anymore,
Speaker 1: he said. Now, instead of rarely against being canceled by
Speaker 1: the PC police, he reflected, he evolved, there's this attitude
Speaker 1: I've heard over and over again that what a comedian
Speaker 1: says on stage is just a joke. It doesn't have
Speaker 1: any of real world impact. Now, there are scores of
Speaker 1: studies that suggest otherwise, And be put in another way,
Speaker 1: if someone is starting out from a place whereas many
Speaker 1: of the messages around them are telling them that there
Speaker 1: aren't even a full person, adding to that chorus makes
Speaker 1: things that much harder. Something that I'm kind of kind
Speaker 1: of almost sick of hearing is this idea that like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's just jokes, it's just jokes. I'm sure I don't
Speaker 1: need to tell you that. Study after study after study
Speaker 1: has own, you know, a direct correlation between transphobic rhetoric
Speaker 1: and anti fans of violence. And so you know, what
Speaker 1: do you say to people who are like, oh, how
Speaker 1: many specials don't translate to real world harm? Like, like,
Speaker 1: what do you you? Probably I know that I've heard
Speaker 1: that argument over and over again, Like what do we
Speaker 1: say this stuff like that? So, first of all, we
Speaker 1: know that's not true because if that was not if
Speaker 1: that was true, then a five year old grudge rated
Speaker 1: our movie, right, Like, we know that the content on
Speaker 1: the screen impacts people. Now, the thing is is that
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that, like today, after they watch the special,
Speaker 1: they're gonna go out and beat up someone who's trans.
Speaker 1: But that does mean that someone is forming an opinion
Speaker 1: about trans people based on the content that they're seeing,
Speaker 1: and that they could be discriminatory towards trans people or
Speaker 1: they could be violent towards trans people. Later, we also
Speaker 1: know that the content that exists on the screen also
Speaker 1: internally impacts the people who are the target of that content, right, So,
Speaker 1: like you know, we also think about self hard if
Speaker 1: you're seeing this type of content, if you're seeing people
Speaker 1: talk about this and this type of dialogue, and you
Speaker 1: already are in a place where you're not a whole person, right,
Speaker 1: you know I was when I first started out. I
Speaker 1: used to tell people, you know, naturally I am. I
Speaker 1: wake up every day with my glass half empty. Right,
Speaker 1: I'm a diverse person. I'm a multi diverse person. And
Speaker 1: so I hear constantly, whether it's about me being black
Speaker 1: and potentially being less than, Whether it's about me being
Speaker 1: non male and so somehow not being strong, Whether it's
Speaker 1: about me being trans and my differentness there, Whether it's
Speaker 1: about me, you know, being married to a woman and
Speaker 1: how different that is. You know, how what is you
Speaker 1: like about me being married to a white woman, and
Speaker 1: how I've betrayed my race? Like, all of these things
Speaker 1: are coming through constantly, and so when you put out
Speaker 1: this content, all it's doing is trying to diminish a
Speaker 1: little bit that's in that glass, right, the little bit
Speaker 1: of hope and the dreams there. I'm very fortunate because
Speaker 1: I have an amazing support system, and I have an
Speaker 1: amazing amount of education and fiscal ability. Because I've been
Speaker 1: so successful in technology for so long, then I have
Speaker 1: been able to fill that glass back up to almost
Speaker 1: four But many people cannot. And so when you think
Speaker 1: about this content, all it's doing is diminishing the potential
Speaker 1: of those people, and then we lose out on that potential,
Speaker 1: Like as a society, we are literally losing out on
Speaker 1: bright lights who could help change this world because of
Speaker 1: the content we're choosing to push through out there without
Speaker 1: also making sure that we put out affirming content too.
Speaker 1: How hard is it to make another pose? Really, post
Speaker 1: was pretty cheap. It was really cheap. You know, we
Speaker 1: can make like five poses and people would be so happy.
Speaker 1: That's such a good point, and I think it takes me.
Speaker 1: It takes me to this idea. There's obviously bullshit, but
Speaker 1: this idea that, oh, these Netflix staffers they want to
Speaker 1: cancel Dave Chappelle. But when you actually look at the
Speaker 1: demands that staffers were putting forth that Netflix, it's stuff like,
Speaker 1: you know, can we invest in a comparable way for
Speaker 1: trans and gender not conforming and non binary creators? You know,
Speaker 1: can we elevate like trans content like the Disclosure documentary,
Speaker 1: which I love, you know, can we can we promote
Speaker 1: that on the platform. It is such common sense things,
Speaker 1: and yet it gets sort of I don't know, telephoned
Speaker 1: into they want to cancel Dave Chappelle, And I guess
Speaker 1: my question is how do we combat this idea when
Speaker 1: there are so many people who are just hell bent
Speaker 1: on believing the absolute worst about the intentions here, Because
Speaker 1: when you actually look at the demands, it's just like
Speaker 1: what you're saying, like invest in trans and gender not
Speaker 1: conforming creators, and that will actually improve the platform. Netflix
Speaker 1: will be better earth for it. And yet that gets
Speaker 1: sort of mistranslated into something that's just that completely not true.
Speaker 1: I mean, Oprah said it best. Oprah was just like,
Speaker 1: there's just some people who are not gonna convince. Right,
Speaker 1: You're just not going to convince. That's not the people
Speaker 1: were trying to convince. We're trying to find that middle
Speaker 1: ground of people, the middle ground of people who are
Speaker 1: still trying to learn to be educated, who just want
Speaker 1: to know more. And so that that's the that's the
Speaker 1: main thing I'm focusing on, right. The reason I agreed
Speaker 1: to go on these podcasts and things like that, it's
Speaker 1: just spread this message because the people who listen to you,
Speaker 1: the piece of people who are looking looking at the outfits,
Speaker 1: those people are the ones who still have that ability
Speaker 1: to be swayed. And the thing about that is is
Speaker 1: if if we sway a few of those people, they're
Speaker 1: also related to the mother people, right, And so hopefully
Speaker 1: they'll go in and say, hey, I don't want to
Speaker 1: hear that today, right, And and also this new thing. Hopefully,
Speaker 1: if you know, Netflix moves forward with with meeting some
Speaker 1: of these demands, there will be a new piece of
Speaker 1: content out there at some point that they watch as
Speaker 1: a trans character and that they love just because it's
Speaker 1: a good show. And then eventually that will work out
Speaker 1: like this is a long term this is a marathon.
Speaker 1: This is not a short term thing. We're not gonna
Speaker 1: change everyone's mind short term. And the thing is we shouldn't.
Speaker 1: If it was that easy to change people's minds, wouldn't
Speaker 1: be such hard work, right when you think about, you know,
Speaker 1: the other day, will be Obery was talking about the
Speaker 1: civil rights movement and she was talking about the fact
Speaker 1: that if we had waited for people to change their
Speaker 1: minds on the value of black people, black people still
Speaker 1: wouldn't have the rights to vote today. And I feel
Speaker 1: as though this is the same as that conversation, the
Speaker 1: same as that conversation that you know, there's still so
Speaker 1: much movement we have to do for trans people, for
Speaker 1: black people, for women, for Latin X people, for Asian people.
Speaker 1: This is a NonStop marathon to have diverse people be
Speaker 1: seen as equal and have the equity they deserve in
Speaker 1: this country. The conditions that you are creating, I think
Speaker 1: can create change. That it's lasting, it's meaningful, That is
Speaker 1: that reverberates, it is it. It does not begin an
Speaker 1: end with Dave Chappelle's funky special Like. This is a
Speaker 1: movement that has that has long, longer term longevity, and
Speaker 1: I just like love to see that. And I feel
Speaker 1: like in every statement, and you know, the thing that
Speaker 1: the that the staffers have put out that's been so
Speaker 1: salient to me. So I've just loved to see that
Speaker 1: so much. M you know, one of the things that
Speaker 1: I it's kind of a personal pet peeve of mine.
Speaker 1: So many of the people that I talked to on
Speaker 1: this podcast, you know, they are marginalized people, they are
Speaker 1: historically underrepresented people. They work in tech companies, tech platforms.
Speaker 1: They're the ones who are putting in all this hard
Speaker 1: work of making these companies and these platforms look progressive
Speaker 1: or woke or with it now internally, they might be
Speaker 1: ostracized for this work, they might be punished for this work,
Speaker 1: they might be fired for this work. But the companies
Speaker 1: are super okay with taking credit for it and being like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're a WOTE company, We're so progressive, yeah, all of that.
Speaker 1: You know, do you feel like that's sort of happening here,
Speaker 1: that it is staffers who are already marginalized who are
Speaker 1: making like getting Netflix the shine to be like, oh
Speaker 1: we are with it, wote, progressive, new fresh, all of that,
Speaker 1: but also behind the scenes punishing those same staffers. You know.
Speaker 1: The one thing I will say is is that there
Speaker 1: have been an internal movement before I was like, go
Speaker 1: to start rewarding people who worked with E r g
Speaker 1: S financially, right, you know, to to take that into
Speaker 1: account for their review. And it was the first time
Speaker 1: I've ever been at a company that it actually had
Speaker 1: that that conversation. But I will say that this is
Speaker 1: thankless work typically, right, you know, you're doing all this
Speaker 1: work to create an environment that's great, that makes the
Speaker 1: company look great, and a lot of people don't really
Speaker 1: see that as a part of your work, and so
Speaker 1: that's something that needs to change, right because E r
Speaker 1: G work. Not only does it, you know, help the
Speaker 1: company see what's going wrong, but it also helps retain talent.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many times I was asked
Speaker 1: to participate in something, whether it was you know, trans
Speaker 1: Star black at that helps make sure that a person
Speaker 1: didn't leave Netflix, right because I was able to help
Speaker 1: negotiate and explain to people what was going on, you know,
Speaker 1: when it came to the company culture, making sure that
Speaker 1: they understood where the culture had issues. You know, that
Speaker 1: type of work is super, super important, and it also
Speaker 1: is something that you know, is it's it's it's invaluable, right,
Speaker 1: It's invaluable. There's no way to calculate how much that
Speaker 1: does for the company. And so I do think that
Speaker 1: this is something companies really need to think about, is
Speaker 1: how do you figure out what that value is because
Speaker 1: it is a differentiator between you retaining someone and not
Speaker 1: retaining someone. People want to work at companies where they
Speaker 1: feel respected and safe. And I think that like that
Speaker 1: is a kind versation that I that I feel like
Speaker 1: it's easy to be missed in this particular situation, is that,
Speaker 1: like I wouldn't it doesn't surprise me that people are
Speaker 1: not necessarily feeling respected, listen to, seeing heard, valued, safe,
Speaker 1: And I feel like these days people are unwilling to
Speaker 1: attach themselves to companies that do not respect them. And
Speaker 1: I think that's great, but people want to feel respected
Speaker 1: in their workplaces. And you know, I saw that statement
Speaker 1: that the CEO of net Let's put out where he
Speaker 1: was like, oh, you know this, I'd handled this badly,
Speaker 1: all of that, but not seeing the way that that
Speaker 1: trickles down to the staff. But at that at the
Speaker 1: top decisions make people feel so disrespected and unseen and
Speaker 1: unheard and unvalued. And how there are people like yourself
Speaker 1: who were going in and plugging those leaks and doing
Speaker 1: the work of of doing some recond and saying like,
Speaker 1: you know, are you thinking about leaving? How are you feeling? Like,
Speaker 1: talk to me about where you're at, where you're where
Speaker 1: your head is at. All of that, you know that
Speaker 1: is valuable work. Yeah, And not only that, but also
Speaker 1: his apology, which I will say is not an apology,
Speaker 1: said like one of them was like, Oh, it's because
Speaker 1: we've been working from home. They forgot how good they
Speaker 1: have it. And I was like, that's what an abusive
Speaker 1: relationship says, Like you hit me today so that you
Speaker 1: you should appreciate me. And I'm just like, but you
Speaker 1: hit me the other day, Like I don't like it
Speaker 1: doesn't work like that. So yeah, no, I definitely feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, it missed the mark right, because it really
Speaker 1: is more about how do you show up right? You know.
Speaker 1: Folks asked me, like, what should those emails, those first
Speaker 1: memos or emails should have said, And I said, it's
Speaker 1: very simple. It should have said, hey, we dropped the
Speaker 1: ball on this one. We should have done a better job.
Speaker 1: Let's talk. And that's three sentences. His actual memo was
Speaker 1: like two pages. Those two pages to say nothing exactly,
Speaker 1: and so like that's the thing. Apologies are just apologies,
Speaker 1: like you don't have to like you don't have it
Speaker 1: does have to be convoluted. You don't have to justify yourself.
Speaker 1: It is apologize, have a conversation, figure out corrective action.
Speaker 1: Don't more. After a quick break, let's get right back
Speaker 1: into it. I saw that Dave Chappelle said that he'd
Speaker 1: be willing to meet with Netflix staffers that don't want
Speaker 1: to include you because Netflix fired you unfortunately. Do you
Speaker 1: think that that would be, Like, what do you be
Speaker 1: willing to meet with him. Do you feel like that
Speaker 1: would be fruitful or productive or would that be like
Speaker 1: is that just like not even where your head is out?
Speaker 1: I mean I was telling me with him, the whole
Speaker 1: point of this is to educate people, right, And Dave
Speaker 1: says that he cares right like, so that's some part
Speaker 1: of his statements too. He's like, this, this isn't me
Speaker 1: versus them, you know, this is about you know, other things.
Speaker 1: And so I would be glad to meet with him.
Speaker 1: And also I don't have to be there. I could
Speaker 1: also you know, if he wants to reach out, I
Speaker 1: can help him connect with the Netflix people as well,
Speaker 1: because this isn't about me, right, this is about the
Speaker 1: work and then making sure this work gets done. Um.
Speaker 1: And I hope that he would actually listen. And actually
Speaker 1: I think he had mentioned recently he was you know,
Speaker 1: he said something like, but you have to have watched
Speaker 1: the special, and I'm like, well, like, we all have
Speaker 1: either read the transcriptive watched the special, so we've already
Speaker 1: done all of our homework. I would ask him to
Speaker 1: look up what churf ideology actually means, um, and also
Speaker 1: understand a little bit more about transgender biology, you know,
Speaker 1: just so we can actually start off on the same
Speaker 1: playing field in terms of you know, what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: Other than that, I let's go for it. In the
Speaker 1: piece that I've had on your blog, you referenced this
Speaker 1: like really famous um Baldwin quote, to be a new
Speaker 1: girl in this country is to be relatively conscious, and
Speaker 1: to be relatively conscious is to be in the rage
Speaker 1: most of the time. And you kind of had your
Speaker 1: own spin on it. You said, to be a black
Speaker 1: trans person in America is a study and courage and
Speaker 1: a fierce desire to not be forgotten. And so it
Speaker 1: just seems like black trans folks are so easily erased
Speaker 1: and forgotten, not just in this conversation but everywhere. And
Speaker 1: you know, y'all have always been here. Y'all are part
Speaker 1: of our history. And I guess I wonder do you
Speaker 1: find yourself feeling like you have to constantly create these
Speaker 1: monuments to your existence so that doesn't get erased, And
Speaker 1: not just monuments here existence, but this idea that you know,
Speaker 1: black trans existence is more than just like trauma and pain,
Speaker 1: making making sure that there's room for black trans joy,
Speaker 1: black trans dreams, black trans brilliance, like how do we
Speaker 1: build monuments to all to the three sixty degrees that
Speaker 1: is black transmiss Yeah, you know, it's so funny. I'm
Speaker 1: talking to my cousin because you know, my cousin, he
Speaker 1: he was talking about you know, the special and um
Speaker 1: how it didn't hit for him, and we started talking
Speaker 1: about black trans people and on you know, translation remembrance.
Speaker 1: The majority of the names that's going to be read
Speaker 1: out as people have been killed this year are black
Speaker 1: trans people. And it's so interesting, Becau has those people
Speaker 1: are just the people we know about. Those are the
Speaker 1: people who had someone who advocated for them, who said,
Speaker 1: this person was a black person, this person was a
Speaker 1: trans person. Because many people don't have legal name changes,
Speaker 1: like they don't have any they don't have people who
Speaker 1: are affirming of their identity, um to to represent their story.
Speaker 1: In fact, I was telling my cousin that I'm so
Speaker 1: fortunate because like my legal name is beat, like this
Speaker 1: is the name I chose. My documents show that I'm
Speaker 1: a trans person. There's an entire reflection now in the zeke,
Speaker 1: the Zeitgeist. This says that I am being so no
Speaker 1: one can take my story from me, right, no one
Speaker 1: can take my story from me. And so that is
Speaker 1: the point, is the fact that so many people live
Speaker 1: these amazing, colorful, beautiful lives that are cut short, and
Speaker 1: because of the fact that as a society we're not
Speaker 1: quite where we need to be to understand and be
Speaker 1: respectful that identity. Right. It's actually really funny because people
Speaker 1: talk about that you should have privacy in your home,
Speaker 1: but what we actually talk about, like what we actually
Speaker 1: see for black trans people, is as soon as you die,
Speaker 1: your privacy goes away. You become a part of the
Speaker 1: public conversation and they choose who you are. And so
Speaker 1: that's the thing about all of this. This is about choice.
Speaker 1: It's like, why do we choose to harm, Why do
Speaker 1: we choose to defame? Why do we choose to let
Speaker 1: people be forgotten when we know they existed and they
Speaker 1: should be honored as such. And so that is the
Speaker 1: real core piece of this, And so it is it's
Speaker 1: an increasingly frustrating thing for me because he means, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a young man from Mississippi who was killed recently
Speaker 1: and his entire family miss gender him. And it's his family,
Speaker 1: it's his chosen family who has done this work to
Speaker 1: get out the message of who he was, and I
Speaker 1: just think it's someone else from Mississippi who is just
Speaker 1: so fortunate that I get to control my or. And
Speaker 1: it's like Lis Hamilton's who will tell your story? If
Speaker 1: Hamilton's wife wasn't so bombed, who knows what we would
Speaker 1: know about Alexander Hamilton's right, Like, you know, that's the
Speaker 1: thing that's crazy about this, that's beautiful. The where can
Speaker 1: folks support you support black trans folks more broadly, and
Speaker 1: what you folks do to support the Netflix staffers who
Speaker 1: are continue to continuing to speak out the first and
Speaker 1: foremost for the Netflix staffers continue to spread the message
Speaker 1: about what's really been asked for. So if you um
Speaker 1: look at Twitter that are trans at Netflix Twitter handle
Speaker 1: and so the asker they're continue to share those asks
Speaker 1: so that people can understand what the real ask is.
Speaker 1: Here to um watch trans things. So Disclosure documentary is great.
Speaker 1: Also watch post because post really so as as a
Speaker 1: young young black TAM's person coming up the post that
Speaker 1: actually definitely represents a lot of my communities that I
Speaker 1: first met and who who helped me become cool because
Speaker 1: I was a dork. Um, So I think that's really
Speaker 1: great to support, like trans content, especially posed to UM.
Speaker 1: And then for just generally, this is just the beginning, right,
Speaker 1: So this is just the beginning. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: of organizations out there. So trans Lifeline is a great organization.
Speaker 1: How are Brown Help in Chicago is one of the
Speaker 1: premier institutions treating trans folks and doing research on trans books. UM.
Speaker 1: The Transgeneral Law Center is also an amazing place to
Speaker 1: support to they're doing really really great work. GLAD is
Speaker 1: a great place to support because they're trying to help
Speaker 1: talk about this media representation and change that. And then
Speaker 1: for me, I'm b Pagal's minor everywhere. Follow me on Twitter,
Speaker 1: you know, because that's rarely where I post a lot
Speaker 1: of content that I find that I think is very interesting.
Speaker 1: They can help people understand a little bit more context
Speaker 1: as well. UM, But first and foremost, educate yourself. You know,
Speaker 1: if there's a curiosity that you have that you don't
Speaker 1: really know what's going on, chances are there the document,
Speaker 1: there's someone who's tweeting about there's someone who can help
Speaker 1: give you that context so that you can feel more comfortable, because,
Speaker 1: like you know, this is a long journey, Like you know,
Speaker 1: It's definitely not something that you figure out overnight. Mm hmm. Okay,
Speaker 1: I actually have one last curveball question for you. You
Speaker 1: strike me as someone who likes movies, likes TV, likes music.
Speaker 1: Do you remember a time when a piece of media
Speaker 1: or piece of content or piece of art made you
Speaker 1: feel seen and affirmed. Post is a great example of
Speaker 1: something for me where I cried when I first saw it,
Speaker 1: Like I could not believe that those were the like
Speaker 1: the drag shows, the ballroom. I was just like, this
Speaker 1: is this is literally what I first got exposed to, right,
Speaker 1: So this is before I came out of trans because,
Speaker 1: like I was, I refused to acknowledge the fact that
Speaker 1: I was trans. And I was in Memphis, Tennessee. I
Speaker 1: was home from college and my mother, my mother of
Speaker 1: all people, took me to the club to see a
Speaker 1: drag show because she was just like, I feel like
Speaker 1: you need to see this. I like, Mama's no, they no,
Speaker 1: And so like I end up going to this drag
Speaker 1: show with my mother, which is really bomb, and I
Speaker 1: met a bunch of like a bunch of like the
Speaker 1: drag community, you know, who were also trans. And so
Speaker 1: some of the first things imposed like literally feel like
Speaker 1: they were exactly the exact same scene from when I
Speaker 1: first came out or when I first started to discover
Speaker 1: that maybe I might be different, and so that's a
Speaker 1: huge thing. And the second example, which is like really
Speaker 1: strange and I don't know why I feel this way
Speaker 1: about this, but the second example is purple right. I
Speaker 1: think it's because of Princess Androgyny and so like I
Speaker 1: kind of felt like, you know, I was like I
Speaker 1: felt a little scene. And also it was so complicated,
Speaker 1: right because he was like this brilliant artist, but he's
Speaker 1: also so like messed up, and like I just felt
Speaker 1: like I just really got it because like I just yeah.
Speaker 1: And so I mean I watched I rewatched that movie
Speaker 1: like probably multiple times a year, and the the whole
Speaker 1: soundtrack is like, that's my sound track if I'm in
Speaker 1: a I Gotta. I Gotta was the best contract. So
Speaker 1: the you are, you have no idea if if I
Speaker 1: could turn you around and show you all the different
Speaker 1: Prince iconography in my apartment, Purple rain is my thing.
Speaker 1: Prince is my thing. And again, like it, Prince was
Speaker 1: someone who made me feel seen, especially in the black community,
Speaker 1: because you know, I grew up in the South, and
Speaker 1: I grew up with my uncle making gay jokes and
Speaker 1: using slurs, and everybody liked Prince like it didn't like
Speaker 1: even though there was a Prince was androgynous. Even though
Speaker 1: Prince was like, as my uncles would say, fruity, people
Speaker 1: fucked with Prince. And so to see the power that
Speaker 1: he had in our community was it was intoxicating. I
Speaker 1: completely feel you on the prints, completely feel you, and
Speaker 1: you know, and you could get anybody he wanted, man, woman,
Speaker 1: like anybody in the whole world. I'm pretty sure Prince
Speaker 1: could walk into a room and just look at you.
Speaker 1: You'd be like, I, okay, where we don't go? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's I think that's the other part of it is
Speaker 1: that it just completely redefined with masculinity, what femininly, what
Speaker 1: everything was. And I think that that's one of those
Speaker 1: things that he probably did more work or so many
Speaker 1: different types of people than almost any other artist. And
Speaker 1: he would be drawing to not a woman, not a man.
Speaker 1: Something you'll never understand. The power of art, I mean,
Speaker 1: the power of representation, of power of art, the power
Speaker 1: of creativity. It's it's unmatched. If you're looking for ways
Speaker 1: to support the show. Check out our March store at
Speaker 1: tangodi dot com. Slash Store. Got a story about an
Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech? I just want to say Hi.
Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com.
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi
Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was
Speaker 1: created by me Bridget Todd. It's a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unboss Creative, edited by Joey Pat Jonathan
Speaker 1: Strictland as our executive producer, Terry Harrison as our producer,
Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michaelmato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us, throw rate
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