WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Gary McKinnon 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:16.520 Thinking Sideways. I don't know. I'm stories of things we 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:22.200 simply don't know the answer too. Hey, this is Steve 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:27.440 as always, I'm joined by and this is Thinking Sideways 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.319 the podcast. I know it's it's crazy, but it is. 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:36.840 And we've got another fairly unsolved mystery. I would say, 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.959 but wait, Joe, what's your patent? DeLine and I we're 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.680 gonna crack this one like a walnut. Yeah, I'm sorry, 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:46.880 I was. I was. I'm not on my top games. Yeah, 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:51.159 it's okay, that's all right. Before I get going into this, 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.120 this story is a listener suggestion and it's actually one 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:59.960 of the early suggestions that we got. But I've held 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.080 hold off because I kept going to it and then 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.360 coming back to it, really trying to wrap my head 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.720 around this story because it's it's a little a little hard, 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.039 it's outside of my wheelhouse. He did. Yeah, and our 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.200 like little spreadsheet of listener suggestions it said, you know, 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:17.320 Steve is doing the show, right, but like we've been 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.440 looking at it, you know, Dibbs, it like what a 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.280 year ago, and we've just been you know, sitting on 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.960 it and sitting on and waiting the government. That's why 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.720 we've been sitting on. Yeah, that check did not arrive 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.680 this month, so so you uncle Sam. Yeah, Well, regardless, 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.120 I do want to say thanks to Ed who emailed 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.800 this story in it it's actually an interesting one. And 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.600 what we're going to talk about is Gary McKinnon, and 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:48.840 he is Gary McKinnon, and his story is a little 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:50.960 hard to follow. But let's let's just kind of we'll 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:52.880 set it up and we'll do the best we can 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.920 with this because there's some there's a lot of UFOE 0:01:56.000 --> 0:02:00.600 talking this just a little bit. Devin is very there's 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.400 a lot of like the whole story actually concerns more 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.560 legal stuff than actually well and I've proven some of 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.080 that out, so well, no, we don't need to go 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:11.919 through all of those legal travails. Now, well, let's let's 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.000 have quite a few of them. Yeah, but let's let's 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.880 just start here. So the story with Gary McKinnon starts 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:24.000 before eleven in this country happened, um were that is 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.240 correct in case any of our listeners are not aware 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:32.959 of a few months after the World Trade Centers were attacked. 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:38.440 UH strange meshes appears on some U. S. Army computers 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:42.640 and it says, quote, your security is crab I'm so 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:47.240 loo I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels unquote, 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.880 which really kind of bugged some people since everybody is 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:56.360 a little wigged out that we've had this giant uote 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.840 terrorist attack at that point and this case, you know, 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.160 mcannon was doing them a favored by letting them know how, 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:06.880 you know, and the military is historically their cybersecurity has sucked. 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.040 I sure hope they've cleaned up their acts. Hope so too. 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:13.239 And there I'm gonna let our listeners tell our listeners 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:15.400 about this really interesting book is called The Cuckoo's Egg 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.040 by a guy named Cliff Stole s t O l L. 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:19.959 And he was he was working I can't remember what 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.040 East Coast University he was at, but he discovered somebody 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.799 was getting into their system and he was he was 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.079 it was a Unix administrator. I believe it's been a 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.320 long time since I read the book, and that that 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:32.320 was that was in the old days of basically the 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.040 dark net, before we had the Internet, and so he 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:36.920 found he traced it and he found that this guy 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:41.360 was actually getting into their system through the computer system 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:43.640 at a military base that was not far away that 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.720 they were linked to. So he and so he was 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.320 able to buy tracing around. He actually trace this this person, 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.840 this hacker to Germany. He want he goes to the military. 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.040 He goes and meet with the base commander at this 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.520 base and and to tell him, hey, your computers are 0:03:57.520 --> 0:03:59.800 being penetrated. People are looking at all your files. And 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.200 and the guy who was like a colonel said, so 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:08.040 what why should I care? That's that's forward at a 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.880 little better than that. I'm sure they have. And just 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.520 for clarity's sake, is Solo the like hacker name or 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.240 what that is? It's Solo is was the name that 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:21.280 was signed to the messages that were showing up in 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.360 the military's computer systems with with these little notes about 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.039 how terrible they were. Okay, so it's not him saying, 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.760 it's just me like I am right. He he had 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:35.039 an identity online and Solo, who was unknown at that point, 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.880 was continuing to scan thousands of US government machines, and, 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.320 as Joe had already alluded to, had found some really 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:48.640 huge flaws in the security of their systems. Between February 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.640 of two thousand and one and March of two thousand 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:55.800 and two, Solo broke into almost a hundred pieces in 0:04:55.920 --> 0:05:01.360 the Army, Navy, Air Force, NASA, and the Department of Defense. 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:06.400 Solo surfed around evidently for a couple of months, copying 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.560 files and passwords, and at one point he supposedly and 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:14.719 this I couldn't find confirmation of this, but he supposedly 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:19.360 brought down the U. S. Armies entire Washington d C network, 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:25.120 taking out about two thousand computers, taking them offline for 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.800 three days. Now they say he did this by going 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:34.000 in and monkeying with files and deleting files. There's some 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.640 stuff where they say that he took out some defense 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.479 network like missile commands stuff, But again, this is all 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.719 listed in news reports. When I went digging to find 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.880 out exact records and transcripts of what the government says 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.560 he did, I couldn't find it. I was, you know, 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.240 I went to the n s A and all these 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.600 places trying to find anything, and they never mentioned this guy. 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:00.320 So it's evidently all covered up and Fred was formation 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:04.280 at don't seem to be uncovering exactly what they say 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:06.240 he did. Well, they probably don't want to get too 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:11.000 specific either. I'm sure. I'm sure now, So this all happens, 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:16.320 and at the time US Attorney Paul McNulty. He called 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:20.320 this the biggest military computer hack of all times. Is 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.400 in two thousand two. This is that they know of. 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:27.560 That's right, There's been plenty of other great, big ones 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.479 they don't even know about. Well, despite being so good 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.400 and hacking into their systems, Solo evidently wasn't so good 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:38.240 at covering his tracks because they relatively quickly figured out 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:42.560 who he was, and they traced him back in March 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.000 of two thousand two to who he was, and they 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.400 was a guy in the United Kingdom in London by 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.440 the name of Gary McKinnon. He's a thirty six year 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:58.200 old Scottish guy, and they sent the United Kingdom's National 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.680 High Tech Crime Unit to arrest him. Uh and UH 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.200 turns out that what he was doing is he didn't 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.279 have a job at the time, so he was bored, 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.240 so he was just surfing around on the net and 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.840 he was spending his days, as he says, indulging his 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:18.800 obsession with UFOs. Yeah, because he's convinced that there's all 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.080 sorts of alien technology out there that were hiding from 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.720 the people. When when he was first caught, he uh, 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.400 he was offered a chance for a plea bargain, you know, 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.920 do a couple of years and we'll just let you go. 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.200 And he refused to do that. He said he was 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.640 threatening to release the information that he had discovered in 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.640 order to get out. So basically, no, I've got a big, 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:46.840 bigger bargaining chip. The US government didn't think so, so 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:51.280 they continued to try to pursue him. Basically, they were 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:55.120 trying to extradite him to the States. Yeah, they it 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:56.960 was looking like it was it was going to happen, 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.400 but in actually the government put the knicks on that. 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:04.200 But let's get into the UFO stuff. Well yeah, yeah, 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.000 so he's he's thinking about UFOs, so that's that's his 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:11.400 reason for doing it. Oh McKinnon. Here he claims that 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.480 the UFOs were the main reason that he hacked into 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:18.520 their systems, and he was convinced that the US government 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:24.840 was hiding alien anti gravity technology and devices which he 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:29.720 was planning to find and uncover and release for the 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:34.800 benefit of humanity. Yeah. I just like, uh if okay, 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:40.839 if the United States of America has technology like anti 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:45.040 gravity devices, advanced energy weapons, et cetera, don't you think 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.520 it'd be harder to hack their systems? You would think 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:50.679 we would think also that we would have things like 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.760 floating battleships and you know, and high energy laser devices. 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.160 We do have all those things. Well, well I'm not 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:00.640 talking float, I mean battleships of float in the air, 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.000 and yeah, I know we have those things. They're just hidden. 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.679 That's what clouds are. Yeah, guess clouds are just battleships. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:10.559 That actually, that would be it. That would be a 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:14.360 really really cool, badass system. Well haven't you seen what's 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.640 the Avengers? They they hide their floating ship and a 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.480 cloud constantly. I mean, that's that's kind of where they're going. 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:22.800 But but we're we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:27.120 So here's a quote from McKinnon. He says, I knew 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:32.360 the government suppressed anti gravity UFO related technologies free energy 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:35.920 or what they call zero point energy. This should not 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.720 be kept hidden from the pult public when pensioners can't 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:44.560 pay their fuel bills. So he's got a very altruistic reason. 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.959 But he was still committing a crime because he was 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.440 hacking into a system. Evidently what happened is at one 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:54.600 point he had read and I've never heard of this book, 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:59.280 he had read the Hackers Handbook which evidently gave him 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:03.319 the basis of how to do all these hacks. And 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:05.679 he used the techniques that were in the book, and 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.080 he applied him to the US government system to gain 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:14.640 access and and he found serious access, obviously because he 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.000 kept getting in. So the question is, okay, well, if 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.719 he got all this access, what did he actually find find? What? 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.040 You know, there's got to be something that he thought 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.719 was such good bargaining chips. Well, one of the things 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:32.000 he found was an Excel spreadsheet, an Excel spreadsheet that 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:37.000 was titled non Terrestrial Officers. That he download the spreadsheet, No, 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:42.240 he didn't. He looked at it. He looked at it. 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.240 And there's some issues with why he did some of 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.120 the things he the way he did, but think that 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.880 he would have kept copies screen at least. Yeah. Well, 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.719 this the spreadsheet supposedly contained the names and ranks of 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:59.839 US Air Force personnel who weren't registered anywhere else, and 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:04.680 it contained information about ship ship transfers. But according to McKinnon, 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.839 those were the names of ships that he didn't find 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:18.520 listed anywhere else. Now was it names like Enterprise and Voyager? Yea? Anyway, Yeah, 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:23.120 well he Now the thing is when McKinnon says that 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.400 it's nontrestrial officers. When he when he uses that term, 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.120 you could instantly think, well, he think he's saying that 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:33.920 they're aliens. Well he's not saying that it's aliens or 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.240 that you know, it's it's humans and aliens working together. 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:42.400 He's saying that it's humans who are on non terrestrial 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:48.120 based ships, so they are in space. Yeah that makes sense, Yeah, 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.199 it does when you read into it that way. But 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:53.200 I mean, have we not all seen the true life 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:59.080 documentaries of Star Trek and Star Wars. Yeah, that's it's 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:03.160 that's absolutely true. And so yeah, I'm okay, Well, well 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:07.160 here's what happens is when his when he was detected, 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.760 when they found him, this is how they figured out 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:13.080 what was going on is McKinnon was downloading a photo 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:18.199 from NASA's Johnson Space Center of what he believed was 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:22.520 a UFO And according to McKinnon, and this is directly 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:25.720 from an interview, this is what he says. He says 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.040 a NASA photographic expert said that there was a building 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:33.400 eight at the Johnson Space Center where they regularly airbrushed 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:38.480 out images of UFOs from high resolution satellite images. I 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:42.160 logged onto NASA and was able to access this department. 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:47.600 They had huge high resolution images stored in their picture files, 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:53.000 and they had filtered and unfiltered or processed and unprocessed photos. 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:55.640 So this is this is what he's saying that you know, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.880 he this is his his basis of this is what 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.120 I found, and this is obvious why it's really he 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:05.599 continues on my dial of fifty six K connection was 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.360 very slow trying to download one of these files. Yeah, 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:13.560 as this was happening, I had remote control of their desktop, 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.320 and by adjusting it to four bit color and low 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.160 screen resolution, I was able to briefly see one of 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:25.760 these pictures. It was a silvery cigar shaped object with 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:30.760 geodesic spheres on either side. There was no visible seams 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.800 or riveting, There was no reference to the size of 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:37.199 the object, and the picture was taken presumably by a 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.439 satellite looking down on it. The object didn't look man 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.280 made or anything like what we had created. Because I 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.240 was using a Java application, I could only get a 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.680 screenshot of the pictures. It didn't go into my temporary 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.800 internet files. And at my crowning moment, someone at NASA 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.439 discovered what I was doing and I was disconnected. I 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.679 don't know, but he got a screenshot of it. Should 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.679 it should be on his computer. All of all of 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.360 his computers, of course, were seized but and then not returned. 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:09.640 So he didn't like store a thumb drive or something 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.559 like that. No, he didn't make copies. Evidently he wasn't 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.960 didn't have the foresight for that right at that point. 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.200 Um possible it could have been a CD two thousand 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:25.240 one could have been. But that's a good point old 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.760 ZIP drive. Here's point. I don't want to poop poo 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.520 what Gary says he found, but I do have an 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:35.520 issue with the image that he says he saw when 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.640 he took it to a four bit resolution at low 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:45.040 resolution or four bit color at low resolution, that is 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.880 really really rough, you know. I mean you're talking only 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:55.680 four colors. That is hard to see anything at So 0:14:55.960 --> 0:15:01.200 I question his descriptions of being silver in smooth and 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.920 not seeing rivets. Yeah there's no way, well yeah, that 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.720 kind of is. It's going to be near impossible to 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.280 see any kind of detail. Plus he's on such a 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:12.960 slow connection. I can understand. You know, it's like when 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.200 you know, back to ten fifteen years ago, when you're 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:17.400 waiting for an image to load and just line by 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:22.040 line showing up on your monitor and you're waiting, waiting 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.240 harder hard to remember those days when modems were so 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.040 much slower than they are today. Yes, it's it is. 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:31.200 It's hard to keep that in perspective. Yeah, So obviously, 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.480 as we said, he got busted in November of two. 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.840 Sorry that all he found. Well, he found the ship 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:39.080 to ship transfers, and he found the pature, and he 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.560 found the picture one low, grainy picture something. Those are 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:45.800 the things that he says he found. No, he didn't 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:47.960 say what kind of satellite photo it was, that it 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.520 was in a military spy satellite. He didn't say, yeah, 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.880 I've never found what kind of satellite. I don't think 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:58.080 he knows. He found it in a folder that said filtered, 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:02.000 none filtered, and that's all he found. And filtered could 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.920 have been as innocuous as they were filtering it to 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.200 adjust colors or something like that so that it was 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.720 accurate photos and not the grass is blue and the 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.760 brown buildings are red. It could have as simple as that, 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.400 but we don't know, but it could have been. But 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.760 he he gets busted and he was indicted by a 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:26.440 federal grand jury from this country, and that indictment contained 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:31.360 seven counts of computer related crime, each of which had 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.240 a up to ten year jail sentence attached to him. Wow, 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.640 so if he had got extradited into this country, he 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.880 potentially could have been locked up for seventy years. That's 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.880 that's something that the our federal prosecutors do a lot. 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.320 By the way, a little aside for the book, Well, 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.240 it throw it throw so many charges at you that 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:55.480 you reasonably and this is this is I think a 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.720 pretty troubling thing that they do these days. It's a 0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:59.880 routine thing that's throw so many charges at you on 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.000 theory that well a reasonable jury will say, well, we're 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.360 not really sure, but you must be guilty of something, 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.720 so find I'm guilty of this one charge at least. 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:10.679 So you know that get you for something, even if 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:12.080 it's not the right, they are going to get you 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.600 for something. And it's like it's kind of appalling. Actually, 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:20.040 yeah it is. It's it's it's okay, okay. Well it 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.359 took ten years for this whole thing to be kind 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:27.040 of put to bed because he fought for ten years 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:33.840 extradition to the States. Yeah, um, gun is now the 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:39.119 UK finally decided that even though they had signed what 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.520 was called the Extradition Act two thousand three, which was 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.000 something that and I had to I had to go 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.639 straight to Wikipedia to kind of get this. It was 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.280 implemented in two thousand three, and it's an extra dy 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:56.920 extradition treaty with the US where the US did not 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.320 need to provide contestable evidence. In other words, they didn't 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:05.240 have to provide ironclad evidence. They could just say, we 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.560 have some evidence and we want to extradite you. So 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.360 they didn't have to prove guilt to extradite, to prove 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.800 guilt again, correct, They just had to say, you might 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.840 be guilty. Yeah, basically, yeah, we want to bring him 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:20.119 here to put him on trial to prove if he 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.000 really is guilty or not, which is a little that's 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.159 that's kind of a disconcerting treaty have in place. But 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:29.600 you know, everybody was panicked at that point, you know, 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.600 with the War on Terror's begun as as it was 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.440 called in this country, and so they were willing to 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:39.280 do whatever they quote unquote had to to keep everybody safe. 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:41.560 And I can see that this could take ten years. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.480 I mean, just the argument of like him being a 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:50.320 citizen of Scotland right in the UK committing a crime 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.720 that is technically it's technically an international crime. It's a 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:58.440 computer crime. So like, was it committed in America and 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:03.040 that committed you know, committed against America certainly, but like 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.760 when yeah, I can totally see all those arguments crazy, 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.640 Very slowly it does. And and there was a lot 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:16.080 of of high ranking officials who had this on their 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.399 desk when they were elected in UH in England, who 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.359 just let it sit there and sit there until in 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.520 two thousand twelve it finally was addressed. Somebody's like, we 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.679 just got to take care of this. And what they 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.359 did is they finally decided that they weren't going to 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:37.399 extradite him because they believed that it was so likely 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:42.040 to cause McKinnon such mental hardship that the likelihood of 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:46.399 him doing harm to himself also known as suicide, was 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.960 too high a risk, and they said, no, we're not 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.879 going to do it. So they're worried about his you know, 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.080 his health and well being and figuring, well, if we 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.399 send him overseas, he's gonna do something pretty extreme to 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.879 himself before or wild there. I've got to remember that 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.080 next time I got they're trying to extradite me, I'm 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:09.480 gonna kill myself. Yeah, I don't know about that. Well, 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.760 here's the thing. One of the things that really helped 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:18.720 McKinnon with the extradition is that in two thousand eight, 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.440 somebody was watching interviews with him. There was a psychologist 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:24.959 who I think it was a psychiatrist or a psychologist 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.439 and I remember which one, same thing really essentially, who 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.240 was watching him and watching his behavior and got in 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:34.960 touch with him, brought him in and did tests and 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:39.280 figured out that he has as Burger's And I'm just 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:42.680 can somebody help me here explain what as Burgers is 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.639 because I'm not real good at this. It's like a 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:52.719 really like a socially adept version well as socially as 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:57.400 a dept as you can be of autism. People can 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:01.520 still have social interactions. It's not like so disconnected like 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.960 a lot of places on the autism scale are, but 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.080 it's still it's still out. It's like they describe it 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.280 as like a very mild autist just say high functioning version, 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.760 I think is the way I've seen it describe. But 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.040 folks who haven't tend to get very focused on things 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.600 which they used as an explanation of why Gary did 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:24.119 what he did. He just he focused in and he 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.400 just honed in. I guess I don't know after it's 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:33.440 really use Aspergers or really autism in general. But certainly 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.680 it's odd to me that you could use Asperger's as 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:44.359 as a defense on why a crime of any kind. Yeah, 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:46.840 I don't think so. I wouldn't. Well, all I know 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:49.520 is that it was one of the factors that they 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:52.399 took into consideration, and that helped his case certainly, to 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.399 take you know, a mental state into consideration, you know, 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.359 I mean, what was that, like the Snickers trial or whatever, 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:04.280 the fense, Yeah, the twinkie defense, like that you shot milk? Yeah, yeah, 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.159 like that worked. So obviously there's a president for like 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:12.040 things that don't actually totally fit and making them fit. 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.480 But that this one in particular is odd to me, 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.080 also just because they have a problem with what it 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:24.399 implies about people with Asberger's. Yeah, but you have a 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:26.960 point there, and and that's why I wanted help with this, 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:28.879 because I knew that I wasn'tna be able to hit 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:30.480 it on the head. And I don't think that we've 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:36.399 probably nailed it as accurately as we should. What you 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:40.359 don't If you don't know Asburg, just look exactly. Okay, 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.120 So that's that's scary. So let's talk about the theories 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:47.000 about what he might have actually found that would have 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.880 freaked the US government. So m and he was never 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:53.240 charged with anything. And he's a freeman right now. He's 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:55.159 a freeman. Yes, I think it's a freeman as long 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:57.000 as he doesn't set foot in the US. He doesn't 0:22:57.040 --> 0:22:59.200 set foot in the US. And he cannot use a 0:22:59.280 --> 0:23:01.639 computer that is connected to the internet. That is one 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:09.160 of the stipulations in the modern day. He's got, he's 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:13.000 walking around papers. He was on probation for a long 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:15.359 long time, always had to check in every night at 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:17.920 the police and then had to go home. But he 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:20.040 and he was a computer tech is what he did 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.720 for a living. And so now he cannot touch a 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:27.000 computer ever again that is on the internet. So and yeah, 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:29.200 that is really hard on in a world like this. 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:32.000 He's never going to hear this show when somebody else 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:34.359 downloads it for him. Yeah, maybe somebody'll download him put 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:36.560 it on his iPod for him. Yeah and if if, 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:41.960 if that's the case, Hi, Gary, but I can't even imagine. 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:45.040 All Right, well, let's let's do this. Let's go into 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:49.840 some of these theories. Now, I've kind of just sussed 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:53.720 this out to two sides of the story, two sides 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:57.399 of what he could have found, well, the things that 0:23:57.480 --> 0:23:59.959 he could have found, or you know, what he couldn't 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:02.440 have found, essentially. But the problem is that this is 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:06.280 a bit of a rats nest. This could spin out. 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:07.960 I mean, this is one of those stories if we're 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:13.000 going to go into hidden technology or alien technology, it's 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:16.000 one of those ones that could just mushroom cloud out 0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:18.399 on us. So I'm trying to keep it focused in 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:21.640 so while there's a lot of things that people say 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:23.920