1 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 3: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 3: love our careers and our families. 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life. 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: episode is airing in early May of twenty twenty four. 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: I am going to be interviewing Catherine Valentine, who is 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 2: a negotiation expert. So she has lots of great ideas 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 2: on how women in particular can negotiate the various things 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: in life. And you may be wondering why their gendered 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 2: advice for how people negotiate, And it turns out that 18 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 2: there's some research that when women use these sort of 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 2: exact same techniques that men do, they may sometimes be 20 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 2: judged in a way that they don't wish to be. 21 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: So Catherine has studied how women in particular can ask 22 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: for things in a way that preserves relationships but most 23 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: importantly helps you get what you want. So we're very 24 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: excited about this conversation. But in the meantime, Sarah, have 25 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 2: you negotiated anything lately or anything unusual in your life? 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 3: Well, I am just so validated already by your introduction here, 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 3: and I'm so excited to listen to this interview when 28 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 3: it comes out, because I hate negotiating, and I think 29 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 3: I subconsciously understood that that like generally when I try 30 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 3: to negotiate, it feels bad. I feel like I look bad, 31 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 3: it doesn't come off well. I'm not good at it, 32 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 3: and so my typical behavior is to honestly avoid it. 33 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 3: I don't love to do it. I will say I 34 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 3: did have one recent negotiation that I did. It was 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 3: very data driven, like I am getting X, this is 36 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 3: what is really happening. I should get wide why here 37 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 3: are the numbers? And I was able to do it. 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 3: So when it's something very clear and obvious, and it 39 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,559 Speaker 3: can just be a calm conversation of more like explaining, 40 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 3: I don't. 41 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: Mind it so much. 42 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 3: But like things like buying a car or sort of 43 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 3: asking for something that's not on the menu at a 44 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 3: given venue, oh my gosh, I really like I can't 45 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 3: stand it. And it actually can be a little bit 46 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 3: of a sticking point between Josh and me where he'll 47 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 3: be like, why don't you just ask? You'll never know 48 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 3: if you don't ask it. I'm like, I don't want 49 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 3: to ask. And so, for example, this is like such 50 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 3: a small thing, but we were both unable to run 51 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 3: the Jacksonville Marathon last December because I had that unfortunate 52 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 3: incident with my car and then Josh got injured last minute, 53 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 3: and on the website it said something like no deferrals. 54 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 3: But he's like, I'm just going to email them anyway 55 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 3: and show them a picture of your injury and just 56 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 3: honestly explain what happened and ask if they could make 57 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: an exception and let us run the race next year. 58 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 3: And I'm like, I would never do that. I'm not 59 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 3: doing that. He's like, well, I'm just going to do it. 60 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 3: And the email back and we're like, here you go, 61 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 3: here's a code you can use this next year. 62 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: Thanks for letting us know. 63 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: So I mean, I guess he's right, Yeah, it would 64 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 3: have been interesting to send that same email with my name, 65 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 3: Like maybe we wouldn't have gotten it. 66 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: I don't know. 67 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 3: If Sarah Hartugar sent the email, I don't know, probably 68 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 3: we still would have gotten it. Yeah, I didn't want 69 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 3: to ask. 70 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 2: And if they gave it that solely, like they didn't 71 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 2: ask for a physician report or anything like that, then 72 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 2: I think they probably would have to you as well. 73 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 3: But You're probably right. It's a small race, and I 74 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: think they were just like, that's fine. So I'm very, 75 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 3: very very excited for this guest. Are you a good 76 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 3: negotiator or were you before you had this interview? 77 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: I don't know if I am or not. I mean, 78 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: in my life I wind up negotiating a lot of 79 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: things just through the nature of running your own business. 80 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: On the professional front, I do have people who negotiate 81 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: certain things for me, Like I've always had a literary agent, 82 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: I've had a speaking agent. 83 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: You know. 84 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: Those people actually have always been women, And I think 85 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 2: I think women are well known for negotiating on behalf 86 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: of other people, and we've always used like female real 87 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: estate agents, you know, anything like that, and I think 88 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: that that's a perfectly good choice. Like no one should 89 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: think like women are bad at negotiating, so I shouldn't 90 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: use professional negotiators who are female, because there's actually some 91 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: evidence that when women are negotiating for other people, they 92 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: negotiate very very well, which is something to think about. 93 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: You know, if you are negotiating, think of yourself as 94 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 2: negotiating for your team, negotiating for your family, and expanding 95 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: the pool that it's not just I want something, but 96 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: this is benefiting all these other people. Can sometimes be 97 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: a lot more motivational that I was thinking back to 98 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: a negotiating This is so long ago now, but it 99 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: came to mind when we were doing the notes for this. 100 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: Was buying my car in twenty eleven. It was a 101 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 2: straightforward sort of negotiating kind of thing. I got bids 102 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: from three different dealers around the kind of Philadelphia, New Jersey, 103 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: Delaware area, and then I took that number to the 104 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 2: dealer who's ten minutes from us, and I said, can 105 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 2: you match it? And they weren't really thrilled about it. 106 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: The word used was aggressive, but as long as I 107 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 2: chose a car from the lot, it was okay. So 108 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: I did, and it's been a perfectly fine car and 109 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: they've made it up. I've gone there for service for 110 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 2: thirteen years now, so I'm pretty sure that I'm a 111 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: loyal customer. Whatever they lost on the initial sale, they 112 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 2: have made it up in terms of oil changes and 113 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: the like. 114 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: I'm dying to know if Michael wielding the same offer 115 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 3: would also come off as quote aggressive. 116 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 2: Maybe he sometimes is aggressive, you know, we deal with 117 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: that well. So anyway, we're delighted to talk with Catherine 118 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 2: Valentine about negotiation, and we hope that you will come 119 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: away from this episode with a few tips that you 120 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: can use for negotiations in your life. Well, Sarah and 121 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 2: I are delighted to welcome Catherine Valentine to the program. So, Catherine, 122 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 2: can you introduce yourself to our listeners. 123 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 1: Sure. So, my name is Katherin Valentine. I use research 124 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: to help companies advance women, and I have two little 125 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: ones as well. I have a four year old and 126 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: a six year old, and so I feel like when 127 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: I listen to your episodes, I just love how much 128 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: we talk about both of these things, whereas I feel 129 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: like so much of the other world we talk about 130 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: one or the other. And so I'm excited to have 131 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: this conversation. 132 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so the reason we have you on is 133 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 2: that you are a negotiation expert. So maybe you can 134 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: tell us how does one become a negotiation expert, or 135 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: in your case, how you particularly became a negotiation expert. Ah. 136 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: I think you make all the mistakes in the book first, 137 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: and then you decide that you need to really figure 138 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: this out. So for me, in particular, I was doing 139 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: my MBA internship, which is like a three month job interview, 140 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: and a few weeks and I had finished the assign 141 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: that they'd given us for the summer, and I decided 142 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: that I was going to I wanted to negotiate to 143 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: be placed on another team so that I could learn more. 144 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: And I spent all weekend preparing for that negotiation. I like, 145 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: got the books from Barnes and Noble, and I highlighted 146 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: them and I underlined them and I wrote a script. 147 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: I tend to over prepare for the things. And so 148 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: on Monday morning I went in. Our meeting was at 149 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: ten am, and I asked to be assigned to another team. 150 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: And by ten oh six it was clear that I 151 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: had offended the coordinator in some way. I did not 152 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: intend to do that, and by ten ten I was 153 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: being told I wasn't a culture fit and therefore there 154 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: wouldn't be a future for me at that company, and 155 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: so in less time than it took to get a 156 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: latte that morning, I completely derailed my career. But I 157 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: had a year business school left, so I went back 158 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: and I studied what was at that point in time 159 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: emerging research on how to negotiate, specifically as a woman. 160 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: And what I learned from that year of research is 161 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: that one, negotiations gendered, which makes sense when you say it, 162 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: but we don't often talk about it as if it is. 163 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: We just give advice like the advice is right for everyone. Two. 164 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: To that point, most of the advice you would get 165 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: if you google, like how do I negotiate is actually 166 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: incorrect for women, but it doesn't come with that disclaimer. 167 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: And then the third part, which is my favorite part, 168 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: is that there is a research proven solution to how 169 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: to negotiate more successfully as a woman. It was pioneered 170 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 1: out of Harvard and Carnagie Mellon and then verified by 171 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: Georgetown at a bunch of other colleges. And so that 172 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: is what I get to do now is bring that 173 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: solution to women who can use it to negotiate whatever 174 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: it is they want. I think particular to your audience 175 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: that would help you achieve the best with both worlds. 176 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's a phrase that you don't get what 177 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: you deserve, you get what you negotiate, And it sounds 178 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: like when you're talking about negotiation here, particularly what happened 179 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: to you, there are some pretty big pitfalls here. So 180 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: maybe you could give a little commercial for negotiation in general, 181 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: because I think a lot of people do have feelings 182 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: that it sounds like a terrible thing that you know, 183 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: risks many bad things. 184 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: As you mentioned well to your point, we are at 185 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: a higher risk of backlash in gender non congruent negotiations. 186 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: So what that means is when men are negotiating flexibility, 187 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: they're actually at a higher risk of backlash than women are. 188 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 1: But women are a significantly higher risk of backlash when 189 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: they're negotiating all the traditional things, promotions, resources, pay all 190 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: of that. The commercial, though, that's not the commercial. 191 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 2: That's no, no, that was not the commercial. That doesn't 192 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 2: make you want to do it. Let's try the commercial now. 193 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: The commercial though, is that there are significant benefits to negotiating. 194 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 1: I think the one that we're most familiar with usually 195 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: is the financial benefit. Right, So a million dollars over 196 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: your career, or if you want to think about it differently, 197 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: you can work for eight less eight fewer years if 198 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: you choose to negotiate the other one though, that I 199 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: think is really ignited the research community recently is early 200 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: evidence that moms who choose to negotiate workload that can 201 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: be a predictor of whether or not they remain in 202 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: paid employment. And that is one of those things where 203 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: it just starts to open the door for all the 204 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: things that we can negotiate, because if you think about it, 205 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: if the workplace was not built for us, and so 206 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: there isn't necessarily a well beaten path we can go down, 207 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: we probably are going to need to make a number 208 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: of individual negotiations as the workplace is changing. So when 209 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: you think about what group of people could benefit the 210 00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: most from negotiation skills, it really is working moms. Now. 211 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 2: I want to make a quick caveat here, though, because 212 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: it's not that women can't ask for money, and that 213 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,479 Speaker 2: one also shouldn't shy away from people who negotiate professionally 214 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 2: who happen to be women. I wouldn't want people hearing 215 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 2: this to be like, well, I shouldn't hire a female 216 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: real estate agent, I shouldn't hire a female talent agent. 217 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: I shouldn't hire you know that there are you are 218 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 2: not at a disadvantage necessarily in the market because your 219 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 2: real estate agent is a woman. 220 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: No, Actually, women have better negotiated outcomes when negotiated on 221 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: behalf of others than men. So you were at an 222 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: advantage if your real estate agent is a woman, or 223 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: if you're agent in any way as a woman. That 224 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: blush actually happens for women when we're negotiating on behalf 225 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: of ourselves. And that's one of the things that you know, 226 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: is kind of the problem with if you were to 227 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: google how do I negotiate for myself? And that's also 228 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: where you know kind of the solution comes in. 229 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about it a little bit then, because 230 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: you said that there is a solution, so maybe we 231 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,359 Speaker 2: can get in now, what are some of the negotiation 232 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 2: techniques that maybe are more fruitful for women to pursue. 233 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: So we're in a spot right now where for so 234 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: many years women weren't negotiating as frequently as men are. 235 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: A new research actually out of UCLA shows that women 236 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: now are negotiating as often, if not more often than 237 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: men in the workplace for themselves, but our results are 238 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: about half as good. And what that shows is that 239 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: we no longer have an asking gap. We now have 240 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: a skills gap. And the skills gap is really just education. 241 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: It's not that we're inherently not good negotiators. We're actually 242 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: inherently very good negotiators. So the research based solution has 243 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: three parts. The first part is to think holistically, the 244 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: second part is to ask relationally, and the third part 245 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: is to discuss collaboratively. Laura, tell me, do you want 246 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: me to go into each of those but that be helpful? 247 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: Well, why don't we start with the first one and 248 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: then we'll see how we're going. 249 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: Great point, So with think holistically when we talk to 250 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: our audiences, eighty two percent of people when you say negotiation, 251 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: automatically assume base pay. And that is absolutely something that 252 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: we can and in many cases we'll want to negotiate. 253 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: But at this point in time, if we can open 254 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: up the aperture, there's so many other things that we 255 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: can negotiate. Right your performance pay, you're signing bonus, a 256 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: retention bonus. Then if we're going to want to go 257 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: outside of money, we can think about your location, your 258 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: work hours, how many resources you're given to do this, 259 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: if you get credit for this. All of those things 260 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: are negotiable. In fact, we have a list of seventy 261 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: five things that you can negotiate, And so when you 262 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: think about negotiating A, maybe it's pay, but b maybe 263 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: it's more resources so that you can get the full 264 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: impact that you're capable of done but without being absolutely exhausted. 265 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: Or maybe it's you're going to work these days, but 266 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: not this day, because this day is when you're going 267 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: to stack all of your kid's doctors' appointments. Right. Those 268 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: are the things that were not sort of historically common 269 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: negotiations until the past thirty fortyish years. They're absolutely things 270 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: that we can think about when we want to negotiate 271 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: for not only success, but well being awesome. 272 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and 273 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 2: then we'll be back to learn about the other two 274 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 2: things that we need to negotiate for. 275 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: Well, we are. 276 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: Back, and we are talking with Catherine Valentine about how 277 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: to negotiate, and particularly how one might negotiate as a woman. 278 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: That there are certain techniques that might be more fruitful 279 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: in negotiation. From that perspective. So we talked about thinking 280 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: holistically and you know, Catherine has her list of seventy 281 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: five different things one can go, not just pay. So 282 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: then the second part was to think relationally right or 283 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 2: ask relationally. Maybe you can talk a little bit about 284 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 2: what that means. 285 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so ask relationally is coming. This is research done 286 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: by Hannah Riley Bowles and a few others which shows 287 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: that when women negotiate, if they demonstrate that what they're 288 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: asking for is both legitimate and beneficial, then you have 289 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: significantly higher outcomes and you virtually eliminate the risk of backlash. 290 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: That sounds really great, but also sounds a little bit complicated, 291 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: And so what we've done is sort of boiled it 292 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: down into a formula. And the formula is your past 293 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: performance plus the future vision and then you're ask and 294 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: then stop talking. We added recently because in an attempt 295 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: to make the negotiation partner feel comfortable, women would start 296 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: negotiating against themselves. So what that looks like, Let's say 297 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: you're negotiating for you know, we worked with one woman 298 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: who was negotiating for fertility benefits. So let's say you're 299 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: doing that. What that would look like is as you know, 300 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: I've been able to accomplish XY. In her case, it 301 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: was a new job offer she was negotiating. I would 302 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: love to be able to come here and apply all 303 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: of those skills to you. I think that we can 304 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: reach ex growth target within the first twelve months. In 305 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: order to do that, though, I need to make sure 306 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: that I'm not leaving important benefits on the table. Specifically, 307 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: my former company was offering fertility benefits and that's really 308 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: important to me, and so I wanted to talk about 309 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: whether or not we could make that a possibility here, 310 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: to which they immediately agreed because they wanted her and 311 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: the growth they were going to achieve through her so much. 312 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: That's what that would look like. Do you want to 313 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: talk about the third step? 314 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: Well, can we back up here and say why is 315 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: that relationally? What defines that as a relational ask as 316 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: opposed to just an ask based on evidence? And here 317 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: we go, what is the relational part there? 318 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: So I actually think it is just an ask based 319 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: on evidence as opposed to the There was one Wall 320 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: Street Journal article where the expert quote unquote recommended that 321 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: you go in and you say, I deserve to be 322 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: paid more. That's a real hard thing to recommend that 323 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: women do, because we know that women are a high 324 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: risk of backlash when they say something like that. However, 325 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: if you can lead into here's what I've accomplished, here's 326 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: what we can do, and here's what I would need, 327 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: that's a much easier ask, a so much more likely 328 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: be successful, but be also worst case scenario on that 329 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: one is you get to know. It's not that all 330 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: of a sudden you're sidetracked or like me, you're told 331 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: that you would have no future at that company. So 332 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: the relational part is really just thinking about how to 333 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: set yourself up for success, not just go in and 334 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: make the ask. Now, I will say this is best 335 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: practice negotiation for all genders. It just has the added 336 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: benefit for women being able to eliminate that risk that 337 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: unfortunately we carry. And then what was the third one? Again? 338 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: The third one is to discuss collaboratively, and so this 339 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: goes back to sort of like getting to yes and 340 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: a win win mindset on negotiations. The difference here is 341 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: instead of thinking it's you versus me, it's us versus 342 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: the problem, and the problem is anything that keeps you 343 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: from delivering the full impact you're capable of at the 344 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: lowest stress level. It's wrong for you, that's a problem 345 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: for your employer. And so framing it up that way, 346 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: now we can trade what more might work. And so 347 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: I worked with one woman who wanted to be offline 348 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: after six pm because that's when all the family things happened. 349 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: And her negotiation was, Hey, i'd be able to deliver X. 350 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: We're on track for why I want to talk to 351 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: you about being able to work the hours in which 352 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: I'm most impactful. So I'd like to talk about being 353 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: offline after six pm every night? Do you think that 354 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: would work? And what she learned back from her manager was, well, actually, 355 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: the big report that we do is do on Friday morning. 356 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: The whole company reads it. We always work on that late. 357 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: So what if you're offline at six pm the other 358 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: days but not on Thursday, because that's when it really matters, 359 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: And like, that's a huge win for both parties. Without 360 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: that collaborative discussion, she probably would just have gotten a 361 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: flat out no, and she wouldn't have gained Monday, Tuesday 362 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: and Wednesday and for a good Friday. 363 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 2: That Yeah. Now this is interesting though, because I mean 364 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 2: a lot of these examples that you're giving. Are women 365 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 2: asking for more traditional women things though, right, like the 366 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: flexibility and all that. We probably have a lot of 367 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 2: listeners like listen, I would like to be paid more, 368 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: you know, and let's do it. And I wonder if 369 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: it's I mean, men may be more sort of socialized 370 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: to ask for that, because I think a lot of 371 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 2: men are judged fairly or well unfairly really on how 372 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 2: much they make, and it's just as unfair as judging 373 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 2: women on their looks or something like that, but it 374 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 2: is traditionally seen as like this status marker. And so 375 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 2: I think a lot of young men in particular grow 376 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: up think, well, I need to negotiate for my whole family, 377 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 2: Like whatever my family's going to want, that could be 378 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: on me, and so that it creates this pressure to 379 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: get it. And I think a lot of women have 380 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: grown to help with that, but maybe they've come to 381 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: see that like I would like to be responsible for 382 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: my family's financial health as well, or it is just me, 383 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 2: you know, that happens as well too. So let's talk 384 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: about getting more money. How do we do that in 385 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: a way that doesn't risk backlash? 386 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: I love this question. So I was raised by a 387 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: single mom, and as you were hinting at, like our 388 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: entire financial well being was on her shoulders. And what 389 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: we found, frankly when she retired is that she was 390 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: pretty dramatically underpaid and that money over the course of 391 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: thirty years could have made a really big difference. And 392 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: so this is one that when I originally did the research, 393 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: was very much top of mind for me. And so 394 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: let's say that you want to ask for more money, 395 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: what I would recommend doing is again that past performance. 396 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: As you know, last year I was able to increase 397 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: sales by five percent. I'm just trying to use a 398 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: common example here. Looking forward, based on X, Y, and Z, 399 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: I think that we can increase it by why percent 400 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: this quarter? Why percent this year? In order to do that, 401 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about making sure that 402 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: I'm paid at the market rate, and frankly, given that 403 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: I'm a top performer a little bit higher than that, 404 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: I think that number is around X. What do you 405 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: think now, Giving a number is a little bit tricky. 406 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: What we know from that is that you want to 407 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: anchor people and give the number first if you understand 408 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: the bargaining zone. So if you know about what is 409 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: a fair range. You want to give the number first 410 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: because you want them to be anchored high. If you 411 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: don't actually know what a fair range is despite having tried, 412 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: then you don't want to give the number first. So 413 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: that's kind that's always a point of debate. Do I 414 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: say the number? Do I not say the number? Depends 415 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: on how much information you have, and then I would 416 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: go into what do you think about that? Now? When 417 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: you're doing a pay negotiation, a lot of times the 418 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: most common know we get is like, well, unfortunately budgets 419 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: are locked this year, etc. In that case, what I 420 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: would recommend doing is saying, you know, I appreciate information. 421 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: Can you tell me what I would need to demonstrate 422 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: so that when we have this conversation again in six months, 423 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: this is an easy yes for you. And what we're 424 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: trying to do is eliminate bias by making those check 425 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: marks really clear. So when you leave the meeting, you'll 426 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: write the note, thank you so much for your time, 427 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: here's what I heard from you, And every time you 428 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: check one those boxes, you'll send another notes we have 429 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: a payper trail, right However, the other way to respond 430 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: to well, we can't right now because budgets are locked, 431 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: is to access one of the other pots of money. 432 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: I understand that budgets are locked on base pay right now, 433 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: what about performance pay? What about a retention bonus, what 434 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: about a training bonus, what about a relocation bonus assigned? 435 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: But like there's one hundred different pots of money out there, 436 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 1: base pay tends to be the most regulated, like there 437 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: actually are certain times that you can do it. The 438 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: other buckets tend to come more from like a slush 439 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: fund type situation, and so they're easier for managers to 440 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,719 Speaker 1: access if you need to close some gaps. 441 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's interesting. There's always something that's said or 442 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 2: you know, ask for all those other things. I guess 443 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: the vacation, the extra weeks of vacation. Even if a 444 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 2: budget is locked, they can let you take more time 445 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: off for instance. That might be something to ask for 446 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 2: as well. 447 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: And what I want to pull in here is so 448 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: Claudia Golden won the Nobel Prize recently for her work 449 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: on women, and what she was able to pull from 450 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: the data, which I think is so fascinating, is that 451 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: if you want to maximize your financial gain over the 452 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: course of your career, you would actually negotiate for promotion, 453 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: not a base pay raise, right, because if you get 454 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 1: a base pay raise, you have the averages three percent. 455 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: But if you can get a promotion, we're talking about 456 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: ten twenty thirty percent pay bumps, and then it puts 457 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: you in a new range. And so what I always 458 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: think is interesting is you can come straight at pay 459 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: if you want to. That's perfectly fine, and I think 460 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: we've talked about how to do that, but the research 461 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: would actually say that if you wanted to maximize finances, 462 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: you would go straight at promotion, which is been able 463 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: to do. X think I can do by wanted to 464 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: talk to you about being promoted by the end of 465 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: the year. Can you tell me what I would need 466 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: to demonstrate for that to be an easy yes for you. 467 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: The other thing that we know is that because men 468 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: tend to be promoted based on potential but women on performance, 469 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: that the right time to have that conversation is now. 470 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: It's in your midpoint review and lay out like the 471 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: breadcrumbs that you would need to do so that your 472 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: annual review is predecided. 473 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: Basically, I love these phrases that you're using, like what 474 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 2: do you think about that? 475 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: Right? 476 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 2: That's a good one because you know, it's not just 477 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 2: yes or no, it's like, what do you think? So 478 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: that's a have a conversation about it. What would I 479 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: need to do to make this an easy yes? That's 480 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: another phrase I think people can can learn from that one. 481 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: So you know, those are a lot of good ones 482 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 2: to keep in mind. And then being quiet. You mentioned 483 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 2: earlier the idea of just being quiet for a while. 484 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 2: Maybe you can talk a little bit about that. 485 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: Women tend to negotiate against themselves, and this really came 486 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: into focus for me when we were working on negotiation 487 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago and the woman wanted to 488 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: work remotely, and when we talked, she wanted to work 489 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: retly four days a week. That was her goal. And 490 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: then when I talked to her after the conversation, she said, 491 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: I'd like to work four days a week. You know what, 492 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: I bet I could do at end three, But if 493 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: two's all that works for you, I'll do. I said, well, 494 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: what was your manager saying in between those? She said, oh, nothing, 495 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: I just kept talking. And so that's what we want 496 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: to sort of guard against. The Other point that you 497 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: made about the questions is we've set those up, we're 498 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: calling them conversational volleys, but we set them up so 499 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: if you can make it, at the end of the 500 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: relational ask, it becomes very clear that it's the other 501 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: person's turn to talk, not yours, So it makes the 502 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: silence just a little bit easier to sit into. Excellent. 503 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 2: We're going to take one more quick ad break and 504 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 2: then we'll be back with more unnegotiating with Catherine Valentine. 505 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: All right, so I am back with Catherine Valentine talk 506 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 2: all things negotiation. You mentioned that you were over prepared, 507 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 2: perhaps with the Birds and Noble book highlighting of your 508 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 2: own negotiation, but obviously we want to go in with 509 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: particularly if you are going to be listing past successes, 510 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 2: you need to have a good list of this, so 511 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: maybe you can talk about sort of proactively what people 512 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: should be doing to set themselves up for good negotiations 513 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: in the future. 514 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: So I think the idea of having a win list 515 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: or a win file is always a good one. The 516 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: other thing that I recommend is sending an end of 517 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: week email every week to your manager of like, here's 518 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: what we said I was going to work on this week, 519 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: Here's what I was able to accomplish. Here's what I'll 520 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: work on next week. Number one. That ensures that you're 521 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: using your time efficiently. The number two that means that 522 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: you're basically highlighting your winds every single week, and so 523 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: when that person goes to fill out your review or 524 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: anything like that, they just search your name end of 525 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: week and it's all right there. The other thing, if 526 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: you need to brainstorm what they might be, sort of retroactively, 527 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: is to look at your job description, because that tells 528 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: you exactly what's important to the company, and you can 529 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: lay out you said that I needed to build a 530 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: new onboarding program. Not only did I build it, but 531 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: we're onboarding people thirty percent faster than you were before. 532 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 1: Because those are the kind of things that you can 533 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: lay out there. 534 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: And you want to use numbers, I think that there's 535 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 2: something to be said for turning just about anything into 536 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 2: a number if it possibly can. And yet I think 537 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 2: a lot of people don't really think about that. 538 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: Agreed, And I think it doesn't have to be perfect. 539 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,239 Speaker 1: Sometimes there are estimations you're going to triangulate what that 540 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: number is, But as long as you can reasonably defend it, yes. 541 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 2: All right, So we're going to come up with a 542 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 2: win list the wind list is going to have numbers 543 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 2: on it. You mentioned that you were practicing with people before. 544 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 2: Should you practice your negotiation. 545 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you brought that up. That is 546 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: the number one most underutilized way to change what your 547 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: outcome is going to be is practicing it with somebody else. Now, 548 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: no one likes to do this because it's a little uncomfortable, 549 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: but it is the thing that we know will make 550 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: a big difference. The other one is and I love 551 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: this sort of psychological trick, but you are more likely 552 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: to have good outcomes when you go in and you're 553 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: primed with happiness. And so what we've seen people do 554 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: is plan a reward immediately after the conversation, not because 555 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: of the outcome of the conversation, but simply for being 556 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: brave enough to have it and knowing that that reward 557 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: is coming will actually make you more successful in the conversation. 558 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: I would imagine that also, not putting too much stake 559 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 2: on any one negotiation in your life might be helpful too. 560 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: I know that many people have had some of the 561 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 2: best negotiations of their life when they were totally willing 562 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: to walk away from whatever it was because the stakes 563 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: just don't feel so framped. 564 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: Well, and Laura, I love having this conversation with you 565 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: because you're so knowledgeable about the topic. So the average 566 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: negotiation takes twenty eight days, and I think a lot 567 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: of times we've build it up in our mind is 568 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: like this one conversation and in an hour I'll have 569 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: an answer. And that's actually not the way it usually goes. 570 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: And that's to our benefit because as the conversation's evolving 571 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: and you get new information, it gives you time to 572 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: think about it. So, wow, we've done a lot today. 573 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: Here's what we talked about. Here are the things we're 574 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: still thinking about. Why don't we come back together in 575 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: a few days and finish it up. That's all perfectly. 576 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 2: Sounds good, sounds like some ways we can all come 577 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 2: out ahead. So, Catherine, you mentioned you have this list 578 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 2: of seventy five things you can negotiate other than your salary. 579 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 2: Maybe you can tell our listeners a little bit about 580 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: where they can find that and where can they can 581 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: learn more about you. 582 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: Sure, so for any listeners that are interested in learning 583 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: more the list of seventy five things you can negotiate, 584 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: which has taken us at this point in time about 585 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: eleven years to make. You can access on our website 586 00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: which is worthmore strategies dot com, WORTA m R and 587 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: Strategies dot com. Secondly, if you're part of a women's organization, 588 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: these consider are recommending me as a speaker to help 589 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: us get these resources to more women. 590 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean there's some fascinating ones in there, 591 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 2: like asking I think you put in notes to me 592 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: somebody asked for December off. I mean just as an 593 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: add because I mean that's when you're not getting much 594 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 2: done anyway, and that is when a lot of stuff 595 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 2: is happening, so it might be something you could you 596 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 2: could ask for. 597 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: Well, and Laura's I was writing that email to you, 598 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: I realized that there are so many things that you 599 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: have probably seen working moms negotiate, right, So from Mayen, 600 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: some of the ones I've seen our location, fertility benefits, sabbaticals, 601 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: flexible hours, health, more resources out exactly when the work happens. 602 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: But even listening to what you and Sarah have done, 603 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: like there's so many other creative ways to do this. 604 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: Are there any that you've seen in the past that 605 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: have really stood out to you? 606 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: Hmm, Well, I'm always. You know, I enjoy watching what 607 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 2: Sarah has negotia over the years as she has i mean, 608 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 2: completely crafted her career to look like what she wants 609 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 2: it to do. I mean that she obviously loves practicing medicine, 610 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 2: but she has so many other things she wants to 611 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 2: do in her life, and she's figured out a way 612 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: to arrange her schedule to have both be possible. So 613 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: I think that's really cool that she did that. But yeah, 614 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 2: I mean I think, you know, we've seen some cool 615 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: ones an episode. I keep hoping to do it at 616 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: some point. We had to hold it for a couple 617 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: of reasons. But about living somewhere else for a while, 618 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: you know, a family going and living somewhere else for 619 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: a bit because of both partners negotiated to be able 620 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: to work remotely for a bit. So that's a really 621 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 2: cool one. People have taken extended leaves. Sometimes it's not 622 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 2: so awesome why they did. I mean, it's that there's 623 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,479 Speaker 2: like a burnout factor going on. But when you've got that, 624 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: you're like, look, I could walk out the door tomorrow, 625 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 2: or you could give me a two month leave. You know, 626 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: people get their heads around it, and that is heartening. 627 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: To see the woman that I spoke to who had 628 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: negotiated Decembers off, and she started negotiating this like twenty 629 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: years ago because her kids are in college now. Her 630 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: whole insight was, when I take a step back, the 631 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: majority of my children's memories and my memories with my 632 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: children were happening in this one month. And also I 633 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: was getting nothing done at work, to your point, and 634 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: so I do think that there is you know, not 635 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: everything's possible, but in terms of what is possible, the 636 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: ability to be creative with it is something that I 637 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: think is a little bit underutilized because we're all going 638 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: so fast down this one way of doing things. 639 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely well, Catherine, you know we always end with a 640 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,479 Speaker 2: love of the week. I can go first, just because 641 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 2: to give you time to think about it, although I 642 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: think you probably already know what yours is. So this episode, 643 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 2: unless something happens, is airing shortly before Mother's Day, and 644 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 2: one of our listeners at some point shared the strategy 645 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 2: with us, which is, in a twown way, a little negotiation. 646 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 2: But on Mother's Day there's often a certain way that 647 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: your family wants to spend their time, which may or 648 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: may not be how you wish to spend your time, right, 649 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: Either it's that you are going to do something with 650 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 2: the kids, or you may even need to be part 651 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 2: of extended family gatherings that are celebrating the various you know, 652 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 2: matriarchs in your family. And that's awesome, right, but it 653 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 2: again may not be the RESTful celebration of yourself that 654 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 2: you were going for. So she started doing what she 655 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 2: called Mother's Day observed right observed in the parentheses. Like 656 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: the post Office, if a major holiday falls on a Sunday, 657 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 2: they then get the Monday off afterwards because it's whatever observed. 658 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: And so that's what she does. She take Mother's Day 659 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 2: observe someday, either before or after the Sunday that is 660 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 2: Mother's Day. She would take a day off work, do 661 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 2: whatever she wanted to at that time, and celebrate Mother's 662 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 2: Day in the way that she wished to do. So 663 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 2: my love of the week Mother's Day Observed. 664 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: I love this so much because on Tuesday I was 665 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: walking with a couple of my mom friends and they 666 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: were all talking about how they were planning their mother 667 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,479 Speaker 1: in law's Mother's Day. 668 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, she. 669 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: Wants to do brunch here and she wants to do 670 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: it with all of these people, and she wants my 671 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 1: children to wear matching things so that we can take 672 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: a picture and blah blah blah blah blah. And so 673 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: this is just brilliant. 674 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 2: Well there you go. Maybe more people can put this 675 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 2: into practice this year. So what's your love of the week. 676 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: So mine is in December. I read your book Tranquility 677 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,479 Speaker 1: by Tuesday. This is my ideal schedule that I'm showing 678 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: holding it up. 679 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 2: Yess awesome. 680 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 1: And in December, because you talk about the course that 681 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: you're in in December, I was like, on Wednesdays, I 682 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 1: would love to go to dance class. And we are 683 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: now almost in May, and I went to dance class 684 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: for the first stop last week and it was so 685 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 1: much fun. 686 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 3: Oh good. 687 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I hope that it fits in my ideal week 688 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: more often. 689 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 2: I think it should. 690 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: But that was just I wouldn't have done it if 691 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: I hadn't read the book. It was really really awesome. 692 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 2: Well that's wonderful. Well, I'm glad you did, and I'm 693 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 2: even more glad that you made it to dance class 694 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 2: and hope that becomes a Wednesday night staple for your 695 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 2: night off. 696 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it only took me four months. 697 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, Catherine, thank you so much for 698 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: joining us real quick, could you say your website again 699 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 2: so people have that. 700 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: Sure it's worth more strategies, which is wo rt moo 701 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,760 Speaker 1: r strategies dot com. 702 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us. 703 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: Thank you, Well, we are back. 704 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 2: That was very informative. We all picked up a lot 705 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 2: of good tips on how to ask for and get 706 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 2: the things that we want in life for ourselves, our teams, 707 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 2: our families. So great to talk with Catherine about that. 708 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 2: Today's question is also about negotiating, of maybe a different 709 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 2: variety than people often think of negotiating, but certainly negotiating. 710 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 2: So this listener writes in how do you handle kid 711 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 2: chores once your kids are older and busy with extracurriculars? 712 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 2: She says, between my partner and I, we have three children, 713 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 2: ages sixteen, fourteen, and almost thirteen. I want them to 714 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 2: help with household chores occasionally, of course, but they're after 715 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 2: school and weekend schedules vary, and I don't want to 716 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 2: get frustrated waiting for the dishwasher to be unloaded. So, Sarah, 717 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 2: how are you guys dealing with negotiating to get kid 718 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 2: chores done despite busy schedules. 719 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think if a kid is physically not there 720 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 3: to do something, I'm just not really gonna worry about it. 721 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 3: Think about it now, that might be my kids are 722 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 3: a little bit younger, so it is possible that I 723 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 3: just haven't gotten really used to necessarily relying on them 724 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 3: for all that much. Even though I do ask for 725 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 3: their help in certain situations. I don't need it per se, 726 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 3: but I do feel like if they're around and I 727 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 3: ask for help, I expect them to say yes. And 728 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 3: I have had a kid kind of claim the, oh, 729 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,320 Speaker 3: I have homework defense, but it's like, okay, that homework 730 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 3: will be there in eight minutes after you've finished unloading 731 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 3: the dishwasher, because we know that's how long it takes. 732 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 3: So I'll call them out if they kind of claim 733 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 3: an excuse that is clearly not actually urgent. But I'm 734 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 3: not going to leave something undone and wait for a 735 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 3: kid to get home if I want it to be done. 736 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: If that makes sense, Yeah, I mean, especially something like 737 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 2: emptying the dishwasher, because when it doesn't get done at 738 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 2: the time it's supposed to be done, then the whole 739 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 2: kitchen schedule is off and people are loading. They're just 740 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 2: putting their dirty dishes in the sink or on the 741 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 2: counter because there's nowhere to put them, and that's like 742 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 2: the additional chaos that then ensues is not worth it. 743 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 2: That said, I do think that, I mean, chores have 744 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 2: been such a struggle for us lately in general. And 745 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 2: some chunk of this is the sheer reality of having 746 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 2: five kids, and particularly having four who are old enough 747 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 2: to do something, Because when I ask somebody to do something, 748 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 2: some chunk of the time, the answer is not okay, 749 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 2: it's why didn't you ask this person? Or they haven't 750 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 2: done anything over the last three days, why didn't you 751 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 2: ask them? Or I did it last time, this person 752 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: hasn't done it in two weeks, Go ask them. And 753 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 2: I'm it may be true, it may not. I'm not 754 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 2: keeping an exact tally, Like if I'm sitting there in 755 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 2: the kitchen and we've got a pile of dirty dishes, 756 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: I might just ask whoever's there to help me. But 757 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 2: we tried to get something more of a chor schedule, 758 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,839 Speaker 2: and again it got complicated of people being gone at 759 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 2: certain times, like if somebody's supposed to do the after 760 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 2: dinner dishes, and they have a seven o'clock thing and 761 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 2: we finished eating at six forty five. They can't do it, 762 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 2: but then somebody else is going to be like, well, 763 00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 2: he didn't do it last night, so why do I 764 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 2: have to do it tonight. All this is to say 765 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 2: I haven't come up with a great solution, but it 766 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 2: does matter. I mean, like I was thinking about this 767 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 2: the night before we recorded this. Michael wasn't around. He 768 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 2: and the older boys usually take out the trash, and 769 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 2: this is not just like I don't want to take 770 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 2: out the trash, which may be true, but it also 771 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 2: really hurts my back to carry these cans down a 772 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 2: long driveway. And the two boys were also gone. They 773 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 2: were at a state technology competition on Wednesday night. I'm like, 774 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,439 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, what am I even gonna do here? 775 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 2: I mean, so Ruth pulled some of them down. I mean, 776 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 2: she's big enough to do that with some of them. 777 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 2: Alex pulled one down, although again it was harder for 778 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 2: him because it's pretty heavy. And then I pulled two 779 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 2: of them down and it was not a pretty situation. 780 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 2: So I think we may have to come up with 781 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 2: like if you can't do it on your night, you 782 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 2: do it the night before and it just sits there. 783 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 2: I think that's going to have. 784 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,959 Speaker 1: To be how we approach that one in the future. 785 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's a good exam of a task that's 786 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 3: not like super like it does it's not like the dishes. 787 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be done within a very narrow window. 788 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 3: So like you could just assign someone to own it 789 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 3: make it work. 790 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, nop. So we'll see. Uh, I don't know, we'll 791 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 2: have to is this a question where we don't have 792 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 2: a good answer. But I think if it is something 793 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,319 Speaker 2: like taking the trash out and a kid has basketball 794 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 2: practice from six thirty to seven thirty, you might just 795 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 2: wait for the trash to go out after practice and 796 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,839 Speaker 2: they can still do it, even if it's not at 797 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 2: the exact time that you would have wanted. Well, this 798 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 2: has been best of both worlds. We have been talking 799 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 2: with Catherine Valentine about negotiation. We will be back next 800 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 2: week with more on making work and life fit together. 801 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 802 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, 803 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 3: and you. 804 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This 805 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 2: has been the best of both world's podcast. Please join 806 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life 807 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 2: work together.