Speaker 1: There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Brigitta and this is
Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet. So I've been
Speaker 1: seeing this idea everywhere that if you want to do
Speaker 1: basically anything right now, you have to have.
Speaker 2: A personal brand to do it.
Speaker 1: Want to be a writer, you better have a big
Speaker 1: social media following or some kind of online platform.
Speaker 2: Want to be in real.
Speaker 1: Estate, You'll need a cohesive social media brand to set
Speaker 1: you apart from the competition. Want to be a musician,
Speaker 1: how's your social media video game? We even talked about
Speaker 1: what happens when this need to always be branding goes
Speaker 1: really extreme and dark, like that surgeon who lost her
Speaker 1: medical license because she was live streaming the surgeries as
Speaker 1: part of her social media brand. Vox actually reported on
Speaker 1: this phenomena in a piece called Everyone's a sellout?
Speaker 2: Now they right?
Speaker 1: The Internet has made it so that no matter or
Speaker 1: what you do or who you are, from nine to
Speaker 1: five middle managers to astronauts to house cleaners, you cannot
Speaker 1: escape the tyranny of the personal brand. For some, it
Speaker 1: looks like updating your LinkedIn connections whenever you get promoted.
Speaker 1: For others, it's asking customers to give you five stars
Speaker 1: on Google Reviews. For still more, it's crafting and engaging
Speaker 1: but authentic persona on Instagram. And for people who hop
Speaker 1: to publish a bestseller or release a hit record, it's
Speaker 1: quote building a platform so that executives can use their
Speaker 1: existing audience to justify the cost of citing a new artist.
Speaker 1: As a podcaster, I know this feeling innately like down
Speaker 1: in my bones. What I love to do is having
Speaker 1: conversations about the world around me on a microphone. But
Speaker 1: in order to do that successfully, I have to be
Speaker 1: a video editor, a social media marker.
Speaker 2: And beyond.
Speaker 1: It's a lot, and personally, I always feel like whatever
Speaker 1: I'm doing, I'm kind of doing it wrong.
Speaker 3: I am Eve's Jeff Coo. I am the co host
Speaker 3: and co creator of On Theme, which is a podcast
Speaker 3: with iHeartRadio that's about black storytelling and all its forms.
Speaker 4: And I'm also a I'm Katie Mitchell, the other co
Speaker 4: host of On Theme and the author of Prose to
Speaker 4: the People, a book about black bookstores, set is coming
Speaker 4: out in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: Eves and Katie know exactly what I'm talking about. They're
Speaker 1: both writers and creatives, and together they make a podcast
Speaker 1: celebrating black storytelling in all of its forms called on Theme,
Speaker 1: which you should definitely listen to, because what is personal
Speaker 1: branding if not a form of selective storytelling about who
Speaker 1: we are.
Speaker 3: So I have a lot of feelings about social media
Speaker 3: and about what branding means, and I definitely rub up
Speaker 3: against some friction a lot of the time when I'm
Speaker 3: thinking about what branding means and kind of feeling compelled
Speaker 3: to come up with the brand and do the active branding.
Speaker 3: But I am wondering, since you're very in tune with
Speaker 3: social media and digital media strategy, what exactly does personal
Speaker 3: branding mean to you?
Speaker 1: To mesonal, branding is very powerful. It's a necessary way
Speaker 1: to show up online. It is a necessary way to
Speaker 1: make sure that the people that you want to be
Speaker 1: in conversation with, the people that you want to give
Speaker 1: you money to make things that they think of you
Speaker 1: when they think of whatever it is that.
Speaker 2: You specialize in.
Speaker 1: However, I would also say personal branding is really exhausting.
Speaker 1: I think that it's something that we are forced to
Speaker 1: do because we live in a capitalistic, white supremacy society
Speaker 1: that kind of forces us to be not just making
Speaker 1: the thing and excited about making the thing, but selling
Speaker 1: how we make the thing.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I just don't.
Speaker 1: I think that any conversation about personal branding also has
Speaker 1: to be rooted with the fact that sometimes it feels
Speaker 1: like we are forced to do that kind of work
Speaker 1: in addition to the work that we want to be doing.
Speaker 4: So, given your stance on personal branding, give us your
Speaker 4: personal brand a bio tell us who we are?
Speaker 1: Oh man, so who I am, and as it pertains
Speaker 1: to my how I've branded myself personally, or like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like if we were if I was a big
Speaker 4: shot in an elevator who had the money, like, what
Speaker 4: would you say to get some off of me?
Speaker 1: First of all, I would say, if you're a billionaire,
Speaker 1: you probably didn't get that money ethically. So you want
Speaker 1: to say it funds your content?
Speaker 2: No? No, no, no, well no.
Speaker 1: I did once to get drunk at a party with
Speaker 1: very rich people, and I asked somebody how much their
Speaker 1: house costs.
Speaker 2: My friend was like, that's such a rud question.
Speaker 5: We'll do that when I'm not drunk.
Speaker 1: So if I was in an elevator with a big
Speaker 1: shot media professional, I would say that along with my
Speaker 1: amazing team, with folks like Tari Harrison and Joey Pat,
Speaker 1: I make conversations about technology and the policy and the
Speaker 1: people that run it. I make those accessible, and I
Speaker 1: make those in ways that highlight the reality that it
Speaker 1: is traditionally marginalized people who make technology what it is.
Speaker 1: And so we're fostering and curating conversations that really deepen
Speaker 1: the perspective of black folks, queer folks, black women, trans folks,
Speaker 1: working people, all the kinds of people that are often
Speaker 1: left out of conversations about technology, the Internet, social media,
Speaker 1: what it means, and the policy that shapes it. We
Speaker 1: start there like that is our starting point for those conversations.
Speaker 3: I can tell you've done that before, Bridget I.
Speaker 5: Give you some money.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna right money, please.
Speaker 4: So when you are thinking about personal branding, like because
Speaker 4: I've went to your website and I was and I
Speaker 4: listened to your show, I'm like, I truly don't know
Speaker 4: anything else about you besides what you like put out
Speaker 4: there that's pertaining to your professional career. Like I don't
Speaker 4: know if you got a man, you got a woman,
Speaker 4: you got kids. I don't know nothing I'm like, I'm
Speaker 4: nosy and I want to know those things, but I
Speaker 4: feel like you personally, like purposely don't put those out there,
Speaker 4: So like, what story are you focused on telling?
Speaker 5: And what story are you?
Speaker 4: Like, No, that's a distraction for why I'm trying to
Speaker 4: get at Katie.
Speaker 1: That is a very like that is you're good with
Speaker 1: your internet sleuthing because you would have to dig pretty deep,
Speaker 1: I think to find out personal information about me, and
Speaker 1: that is very much with intention and by design, and
Speaker 1: I think it goes back to what I personally have
Speaker 1: found about my branding is that because I find personal
Speaker 1: branding and sort of storytelling about myself online, I find
Speaker 1: it kind of exhausting and I don't really like participating
Speaker 1: in it that much these days, but I know I
Speaker 1: kind of have to because of the career that I'm in.
Speaker 1: I am very intentional about it. I almost would use
Speaker 1: the phrase like, you know, kind of neutrally manipulative. I
Speaker 1: don't want any I only want someone to be able
Speaker 1: to say like, oh, well, she does x y Z
Speaker 1: kind of work, she's interested in X y Z kind
Speaker 1: of projects.
Speaker 2: And part of it is.
Speaker 1: Because you know, I care quite a bit about my
Speaker 1: work and my professional identity, but my real identity, the
Speaker 1: people that I love, my community, my values, all of that.
Speaker 1: I kind of hold that a bit closer to my
Speaker 1: chest because I don't want that to be something that
Speaker 1: is a personal an exhaustive personal branding exercise. Right Like
Speaker 1: when I'm spending time with my family, I don't want
Speaker 1: to feel that I have to be digitally curating a
Speaker 1: story about that time. Otherwise it doesn't count. That's just
Speaker 1: like not a not a dynamic. I'm really interested in
Speaker 1: bringing in to certain parts of my life, but I'm
Speaker 1: happy to talk about it with you on in terms
Speaker 1: of how I brand myself, it doesn't really show up.
Speaker 5: Yes, I'm nosy, I want to know who let's talk
Speaker 5: about that after Katie.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious, like how is it shown up for
Speaker 1: like how do you two as creatives and hosts and
Speaker 1: people who have platforms and make things like how do you?
Speaker 2: How have you found that dynamic?
Speaker 5: I think we approach very differently.
Speaker 3: Say more about that.
Speaker 4: I think cause like I don't have like a website
Speaker 4: about myself or anything I've taken to like also not
Speaker 4: like really posting anything about my family, and I used
Speaker 4: to I felt like people asked me questions, I just
Speaker 4: felt like I had to answer, like and it's like
Speaker 4: so silly to say. It was like, you actually don't
Speaker 4: have to tell people things just because they ask you that, Like, oh,
Speaker 4: guy Ross is asking me about my grandpa, I have
Speaker 4: to tell him and I'm just like, oh no, I don't.
Speaker 4: So like I've tapered off of that. I feel like
Speaker 4: I've grown into like cause like in my personal life,
Speaker 4: I'm very like to myself, like I don't even be
Speaker 4: telling my friends like every single thing. So I'm like,
Speaker 4: why am I telling the internet every single thing? And
Speaker 4: I think I got to that very quickly. It's like, actually,
Speaker 4: I don't like this, Like I feel like I don't
Speaker 4: really have a curated personal brand. Maybe my personal brand
Speaker 4: is like not having one, like being mysterious I would
Speaker 4: like to think. I was like, yeah, my agent was like,
Speaker 4: you need to have a website and you need to
Speaker 4: do this, and I'm just like, hmm, I hear you,
Speaker 4: but I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 3: So yeah, they tried to do the same thing to me,
Speaker 3: like back in like years ago, when I first started
Speaker 3: hosting podcasts, they were like, you should probably set up
Speaker 3: a Twitter I mean, and look how that's gone today,
Speaker 3: you know. But I mean, I have felt compelled to
Speaker 3: be to have a public presence, but that feeling of
Speaker 3: being compelled has never actually led me to do anything
Speaker 3: that I'm uncomfortable with, because at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: I know that I have control over what I choose
Speaker 3: to share with people and how I choose to share it.
Speaker 3: So I have found myself telling myself that I want
Speaker 3: to share more, but if that doesn't show up right
Speaker 3: in my body, then I don't do it. So I
Speaker 3: have shared more in the places where I feel most comfortable,
Speaker 3: which for me oftentimes that is if it's on social media,
Speaker 3: then that's in the Instagram space. But if that's outside
Speaker 3: on the internet, like you know, just the articles that
Speaker 3: I write in the podcast that I produce, those are
Speaker 3: spaces where I know that I have creative more creative control,
Speaker 3: and they're subject to scrutiny in different ways, or at
Speaker 3: least more measured scrutiny. I don't think I have a
Speaker 3: personal brand either, but I think maybe one has been
Speaker 3: constructed for me and my chosen interest. Actually, speaking of
Speaker 3: this bridget We've talked about this before in the title
Speaker 3: of public intellectual and how that's something that is like
Speaker 3: I would be labeled as regardless.
Speaker 5: Whether or not I would choose to call myself that.
Speaker 2: I mean, you are one.
Speaker 1: I don't think somebody comes down from the sky and
Speaker 1: as like Eves, I w a public intellectual.
Speaker 2: You are one.
Speaker 1: You publicly opine and have good takes and good opinions,
Speaker 1: and you're part of the public conversation and people look
Speaker 1: to you. The people who are listening to on theme,
Speaker 1: they listen to the both of you to help them understand,
Speaker 1: you know, what they should be help shape their own opinions.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think you are a public intellectual.
Speaker 1: Even if you don't feel like you would ever call
Speaker 1: yourself one, you both definitely are.
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm getting a therapy session right now
Speaker 3: and helping me work through some things.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: Also, think about all the kinds of people who wouldn't
Speaker 1: feel like I just know a lot of people who
Speaker 1: are like, oh, I'm a X Y Z expert, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I feel like experts the kind of
Speaker 1: thing that other people have to call you.
Speaker 2: It's you're calling yourself one. That's interesting.
Speaker 1: And I think more more people who have actual good
Speaker 1: things to offer the world should take ownership of those
Speaker 1: labels that mean so much.
Speaker 5: So what would you say, you're an expert in.
Speaker 1: Oh, god, nothing, No, that's not true. I am an
Speaker 1: expert in This is a good question. I am an
Speaker 1: expert in curiosity. I know that's kind of a cop
Speaker 1: out answer, but you know, like, that's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why I love podcasting is that you really just
Speaker 1: get to poke and product people. And you know, Katie,
Speaker 1: you said something earlier and Eves was like, Oh, tell
Speaker 1: me more about that. If there was a question that
Speaker 1: animates my entire existence in this world, and probably tell
Speaker 1: me more about that, because I am just genuinely very
Speaker 1: curious about who people are, what motivates them, their values,
Speaker 1: where they see themselves, how they see the world. So
Speaker 1: I think I'm an expert in curiosity.
Speaker 3: So you have your own personal experience with personal branding,
Speaker 3: But when you see other people and the ways that
Speaker 3: they choose to personal brand in public, what are your
Speaker 3: feelings about that, Like, do you have any sort of
Speaker 3: initial emotions that come up when you think of the
Speaker 3: ways that people have to personal brand on the Internet.
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody can relate to this feeling
Speaker 1: but lately I have made a lot of intentional efforts
Speaker 1: to sort of step back and be a little more
Speaker 1: selective about how my own brand shows up online. And
Speaker 1: also I've made the choice to care a little bit
Speaker 1: less about it and say, like, if I want to
Speaker 1: be a kick ass podcaster, I'm going to lean into
Speaker 1: podcasting and the personal branding stuff can come second, and
Speaker 1: that's okay. However, lately, I have felt like when I
Speaker 1: scroll social media, I am just constantly being bombarded with
Speaker 1: the ways that I'm getting it wrong, the ways that
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, you're not making reels. You should be
Speaker 1: making tiktoks like this. You should be offering your audience this.
Speaker 1: If you want to grow, do that. And I think
Speaker 1: part of that is just the nature of social media algorithms.
Speaker 1: It seems like every other month Ada mos Ari, the
Speaker 1: head of Instagram, will be like, oh, well, last month,
Speaker 1: we told creators if they wanted to use Instagram to
Speaker 1: the best of their ability, they should be doing X.
Speaker 2: Now it's why.
Speaker 1: And I realized that I just have no interest in
Speaker 1: being on this hamster wheel while where I have to be,
Speaker 1: you know, responding to the whims of billionaires who run
Speaker 1: tech platforms who I will never meet right, and so
Speaker 1: I've made that decision for myself. But I don't feel
Speaker 1: like it's very easy to sit in that choice all
Speaker 1: the time, because constantly I'm bombarded by people who are
Speaker 1: doing it right or have the answer or want to
Speaker 1: sell me the answer. I often find other people's personal
Speaker 1: branding a little bit exhausting, and it's so just like
Speaker 1: me projecting my own insecurities and anxiety around it onto them,
Speaker 1: like they're not doing anything wrong. But it sometimes it
Speaker 1: seems hard to just exist online without constantly branding yourself
Speaker 1: and constantly selling people on who you are. Like whatever
Speaker 1: happened to kicking it online or having fun online or
Speaker 1: finding community online in a way that wasn't like just
Speaker 1: intentionally branding yourself as some sort of expert in your field.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that also makes me think about how corporations
Speaker 3: and commercial institutions, how their anxieties and their issues have
Speaker 3: been projected onto us, and how we've kind of had
Speaker 3: to co op them in our own efforts to survive
Speaker 3: and live in this world. And I'm wondering if you
Speaker 3: see any differences in the way that black people have
Speaker 3: had to operate in that space of being forced to
Speaker 3: personal brand, to live and how people of other races
Speaker 3: have operated in that space. Do you feel differently about them?
Speaker 3: Do you see a difference between the two.
Speaker 1: I do see a difference. I think the stakes are
Speaker 1: different for us, you know. I mean, I think historically
Speaker 1: we have a lot less access, So we have a
Speaker 1: lot less access to platforms and spaces and traditional media outlets,
Speaker 1: and we've really had to build our own platforms and
Speaker 1: spaces and media outlets. If you want to be heard
Speaker 1: and want to be able to show up as our
Speaker 1: authentic selves, that is a gift. That is a gift
Speaker 1: that we as black folks have always had, is building
Speaker 1: our own tables when we're not invited to other people's stables, right,
Speaker 1: So I want to honor the fact that that is
Speaker 1: a truly a gift and a legacy. So I'm not
Speaker 1: knocking that. However, I think that because of that, we
Speaker 1: kind of always have to be doing that, and like
Speaker 1: there's a feeling that if you stop doing that, you'll
Speaker 1: cease to exist or you'll cease to get those opportunities.
Speaker 1: And I actually really do believe that. I think that
Speaker 1: if I were to take a year off of social media,
Speaker 1: or a year off of making my podcast, I think
Speaker 1: that it would be that much harder for me to
Speaker 1: come back because people will be like, oh, what like
Speaker 1: in that year, I didn't see you constantly posting what
Speaker 1: awards you were winning, or constantly and posting what content
Speaker 1: you were making, So I guess you didn't exist, right,
Speaker 1: And So I think that because of these because of
Speaker 1: the way that historically we have been shut out of
Speaker 1: that kind of access, I think it creates this kind
Speaker 1: of need to be doing something that luckily we're quite
Speaker 1: good at, which is building our own platforms. And I
Speaker 1: just yeah, I just want to make sure that when
Speaker 1: we talk about that, we're talking about it in a
Speaker 1: way that both honors how great that is, but also
Speaker 1: is tuned into how tough that can be, that feeling
Speaker 1: can be, to be like, oh, I can't even take
Speaker 1: a break for a moment, I always have to be branding.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if we're already black people, is the way I'm
Speaker 3: talking about already subject to so much scrutiny because even
Speaker 3: when we're visible in the very smallest of ways. So
Speaker 3: what do you think that kind of loop of visibility
Speaker 3: of having to be present at all times just by
Speaker 3: nature of the Internet, but also because we're black, how
Speaker 3: does that affect like how we are treated in terms
Speaker 3: of our visibility and hypervisibility.
Speaker 1: Hypervisibility is a good word for it, because it's like,
Speaker 1: as black folks who show up online, we're both hyper visible,
Speaker 1: but in a lot of ways erased or overlooked. And
Speaker 1: it's just very interesting to me how you can sort
Speaker 1: of be both. I've had accomplishments in my life where
Speaker 1: things happen in my life that I don't put on
Speaker 1: social media and people act like they don't exist, and
Speaker 1: so I'm really challenging myself to sort of resist that internally.
Speaker 1: And I really think about this quote from MICHAELA. Cole
Speaker 1: when I think she won an Emmy, and she said,
Speaker 1: in a world that entices us to browse through the
Speaker 1: lives of others to help us better determine how we
Speaker 1: feel about ourselves, and to in turn feel the need
Speaker 1: to be constantly visible. For visibility these days seems to
Speaker 1: somehow equate to success. Do not be afraid to disappear
Speaker 1: from it, from us for a while and see what
Speaker 1: comes to you in the silence. And I have always
Speaker 1: found so much power in that quote because when you
Speaker 1: have that silence and that space where there aren't eyes
Speaker 1: on you. For me, that has a equated to really
Speaker 1: making something I'm proud of, or really being able to
Speaker 1: lean into something right.
Speaker 2: And so I think that in.
Speaker 1: A world that tells us that visibility is success, not
Speaker 1: being afraid to step back and go invisible, go dark
Speaker 1: for a little bit, you know, I think it's really
Speaker 1: powerful to be able to do that and understand what
Speaker 1: the power in that in a world that tells you
Speaker 1: always have to be showing yourself and branding yourself.
Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break at our back.
Speaker 3: Have you ever taken a social media break?
Speaker 2: Oh? All the time? I mean I'm not. I'm not
Speaker 2: somebody who will be like, hey, guys taking a.
Speaker 4: Break, like like nobody cares.
Speaker 5: Y girl, you could have kept that to yourself.
Speaker 3: Take a nap, right, like, we wouldn't have known if
Speaker 3: that was the algorithm or them taking a break anyway.
Speaker 1: I definitely take long breaks, short breaks, all the breaks
Speaker 1: from social media.
Speaker 2: And I don't feel the need to announce it.
Speaker 1: But isn't it so weird that you would even feel
Speaker 1: the need to announce it, Like there's like how many
Speaker 1: other things in your life? If you stop doing it
Speaker 1: for a week or a month, would people be like, oh,
Speaker 1: are you okay?
Speaker 2: What's going on with you?
Speaker 1: Like, if you didn't play a certain game for a month,
Speaker 1: do you think that you would feel the need to
Speaker 1: like announce that to the world.
Speaker 2: I just think.
Speaker 1: That that really, to me illustrates how we're so caught
Speaker 1: up in this idea that everybody, everybody has to be
Speaker 1: on social media all the time, and that you know
Speaker 1: that's not true, Like you can you can dip in,
Speaker 1: dip out, do it as it feels comfortable and right
Speaker 1: to you, and truly nothing will happen.
Speaker 4: I think that also goes to the difference between personal
Speaker 4: branding online versus personal branding like IRL, because I don't
Speaker 4: think people paid that much more. People pay more attention
Speaker 4: to the online presence than like their in person presence.
Speaker 4: So like you're going to think about like what outfit
Speaker 4: you're posting when you're posting online, and you're going to
Speaker 4: craft your caption really well, and you're going to like
Speaker 4: have all this thought, But when you're out in the streets,
Speaker 4: you're looking a mess. You've got a bond it on,
Speaker 4: and you're talking crazy to the people at American DELI like,
Speaker 4: you're not really thinking too much about your personal brand.
Speaker 3: And when people apologize for that, they do it online,
Speaker 3: like when they apologize for their public presence. I've seen
Speaker 3: people say I had to where I couldn't go outside
Speaker 3: today because I wasn't. They'll say things about like wearing
Speaker 3: makeup or wearing a bond it out or not being
Speaker 3: dressed to the nons, you know, not having their faces
Speaker 3: beat and apologize for that because they know that might
Speaker 3: show up online in a certain way, but not necessarily
Speaker 3: because they care about how that personal interaction in real
Speaker 3: life went.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean, by the way, I'm pro bonnet
Speaker 4: outside just putting that out out.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying people will apologize for things like that
Speaker 3: because they want to be perceived a certain way because
Speaker 3: they know how their brand will show up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, But it's like the personal branding, Yeah, I'd like,
Speaker 4: the obsession with it doesn't really for I think for
Speaker 4: most people, it doesn't show up outside unless you're like
Speaker 4: on a panel or at a conference. But like just
Speaker 4: how you move every day, I don't see that as much.
Speaker 1: There is this weird kind of collapse that I see
Speaker 1: between in real life and online evens where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: somebody might have an interaction offline that is in some
Speaker 1: ways authentically them because they're not branding it. It's just happening,
Speaker 1: you know, off the cuff or whatever, and then go
Speaker 1: online to talk about that interaction in a way that
Speaker 1: is part of the brand. It's so interesting how these
Speaker 1: online and offline realities have kind of collapsed. And I
Speaker 1: do think that if something like in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: the digital realm has become more real than reality in
Speaker 1: some ways, where it only sort of matters how it
Speaker 1: shows up online or how it's branded online and shows
Speaker 1: up in reality is a lot In a lot of cases,
Speaker 1: it's a lot less important to folks.
Speaker 5: I think, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4: Are you familiar with the Google for faces pim eyes?
Speaker 4: Oh yes, so I just learned about that, I think
Speaker 4: last week.
Speaker 5: Are you familiar with the use.
Speaker 4: So it's basically like, if say I have a picture
Speaker 4: of you, and you can have a mask on, you
Speaker 4: can have your eyes closed, you can be like looking
Speaker 4: a different way. I can put that into that and
Speaker 4: it would show every instance where your face appears online,
Speaker 4: whether you posted it, whether you're just like in the
Speaker 4: background of somebody else's picture, just everything, and like learning
Speaker 4: about that really just like made me want to just
Speaker 4: go further away from not branding myself. Like I was, like,
Speaker 4: I want to remove every picture of myself from online
Speaker 4: just because, Like I think when we first started doing this,
Speaker 4: I would say like for us, maybe like the early
Speaker 4: twenty tens, we had no idea like what the internet
Speaker 4: was going to be, and so like now in twenty
Speaker 4: twenty four, I still like we still don't have a
Speaker 4: true idea, but we see a little bit more, and
Speaker 4: to me, it's like very scary what the internet is
Speaker 4: about to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 1: You know, I think I might be a little older
Speaker 1: than both of you, But I remember when I first
Speaker 1: got Facebook, I was an undergrad in college and I
Speaker 1: graduated college in two thousand and seven, two thousand and seven,
Speaker 1: and this was when the main thing was like you
Speaker 1: are connecting with your friends, you are going out to
Speaker 1: a nightclub, you are taking a thousand pictures from that
Speaker 1: single outing, posting all of them pits days, and all
Speaker 1: of them for sure pit stains. Yeah, like albums, right,
Speaker 1: And so I think that was sort of that the
Speaker 1: heyday when we really really kind of it was easy
Speaker 1: to think of this as something that was about connection
Speaker 1: here in twenty twenty four. I don't think that anybody
Speaker 1: feels like social media platforms are offering us genuine connection anymore.
Speaker 1: I think what they're offering us is exploitation. I think
Speaker 1: what they're offering us is anxiety. I think what they're
Speaker 1: offering us is surveillance, criminal, is all kinds of things.
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, that idea of connecting
Speaker 1: with your friends, even if you look at your if
Speaker 1: you if you open Instagram right now and scroll your
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Whatever, their version of their feed.
Speaker 1: A lot of the stuff that you're being shown is
Speaker 1: it from your friends or people that you've opted to follow.
Speaker 1: It's algorithmically generated content that they want you to see
Speaker 1: that they think that you might like, right, And so
Speaker 1: I think that what is I think we should be
Speaker 1: asking what that means for our role in all of this,
Speaker 1: how we fit into that If social media platforms are
Speaker 1: going to go to a place where it's more about
Speaker 1: like surfacing you content than connection.
Speaker 2: So if you're no longer connecting with your.
Speaker 1: Friends, are we all like Katie Eves and Bridget are
Speaker 1: we all now de facto content creators? Or or what
Speaker 1: like are we the audience here? I think that we
Speaker 1: really need to have a more refined role in how
Speaker 1: we fit into this because the two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight days are
Speaker 1: like way behind us in terms of how this is
Speaker 1: all working.
Speaker 4: We're living in unpresidented time, but we've been doing so
Speaker 4: for for a while now. It's not like, oh, we
Speaker 4: have like one one event that happens. It's like, ooh
Speaker 4: that was unprecedented, Glad that's over. It's just like all
Speaker 4: of it, like the evolution of it is just like,
Speaker 4: oh my god, Like what's next?
Speaker 5: What are we going to do?
Speaker 4: And as a podcaster, Bridget, I'm interested in getting your
Speaker 4: take on like who owns our personal brands? Because it
Speaker 4: sounds like, oh, it's our personal brand, we own it,
Speaker 4: but you know, like as contractors, like do we own
Speaker 4: those or is it you know, XYZ Corporation media conglomerate
Speaker 4: that owns our personal branding?
Speaker 5: What do you think about that?
Speaker 1: Well, as a company girl, I have to shout out
Speaker 1: the good folks that iHeart radio definitely own my brand
Speaker 1: and all of the things that come with it. No,
Speaker 1: I'm kidding, I mean I think your question is it's
Speaker 1: like a really good one. I am. I might be
Speaker 1: a weird person to ask because I'm particular about ownership, right.
Speaker 1: If you ever watched that show Breaking Bad and Walter White,
Speaker 1: one of the reasons it's like revealed by that. One
Speaker 1: of the reasons why he's so weird about his math
Speaker 1: recipe is that he was cut out of a cut
Speaker 1: out of a deal when he was a scientist and
Speaker 1: he didn't have ownership over a product that he made,
Speaker 1: and it like stuck with him. I kind of feel
Speaker 1: like that's a little bit of my origin story too,
Speaker 1: where I am a real I am very particular about ownership.
Speaker 1: I would rather get screwed on the money and have
Speaker 1: more ownership of something. I don't know if that's like
Speaker 1: the best choice, but part of it is because of
Speaker 1: that discomfort around who owns what. I just hate the
Speaker 1: idea that something that I create, right, something that I conceptualized,
Speaker 1: that I put my heart and soul into, that came
Speaker 1: from me, that was that was colored by all of
Speaker 1: the experiences that I have brought with me to this
Speaker 1: to this world, that somebody else could be like, oh well,
Speaker 1: that's just another point in our annual sales meeting about
Speaker 1: how we're doing right, So like I am, I'm like
Speaker 1: very weird about that kind of thing, and I do.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've had situations where the line of ownership
Speaker 1: who owns what about me and my work and my
Speaker 1: brand isn't so clear, And so these days I'm trying
Speaker 1: to really move through the creative professional world with a
Speaker 1: lot more clarity about where the lines are about who
Speaker 1: owns what about you know, who has the final say,
Speaker 1: who has control, who makes the money all of that,
Speaker 1: because I think it's I think you need to you know.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too into it, but like
Speaker 1: when I was first coming up in podcasting, I've signed
Speaker 1: some deals that I wish I had looked at a
Speaker 1: little closer, because I would see, like, oh, I'm I'm inherently,
Speaker 1: both in the work and on paper, just generating stuff
Speaker 1: for other people. And so no matter how much of
Speaker 1: myself I put into that, I'm only going to ever
Speaker 1: be generating for others's supposed to generating for myself. And
Speaker 1: so yeah, I feel a bit burned on that in
Speaker 1: some ways and really trying to move now with a
Speaker 1: little more clarity around it. But again, as creative so
Speaker 1: it'd be really curious how you all are navigating that
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: I was just about to say you are. You would
Speaker 3: not be the only person to say that, Bridget, And
Speaker 3: I think it's like comforting to hear that coming from you,
Speaker 3: a person who's worked on so many podcasts, because these
Speaker 3: deals were happening then and they're still happening now. And yeah,
Speaker 3: I think pretty difficult to navigate because if you're working
Speaker 3: with the company, there's going to be some trade offs,
Speaker 3: and the question is that you have to ask yourself,
Speaker 3: like what are those trade offs to you? And what
Speaker 3: are the most important parts of it to you? Those
Speaker 3: questions are often about ownership, and I think that I
Speaker 3: in the past have not been like competent enough, or
Speaker 3: I haven't had the team on my side, like a
Speaker 3: good lawyer on my side to be able to tell
Speaker 3: me what the right things were. So I've been able
Speaker 3: to learn from crowdsourcing and the sharing of information, which
Speaker 3: has been amazing.
Speaker 2: Information is power.
Speaker 1: If anybody listening wants like DM me, I will I
Speaker 1: will give you my contracts, I'll give you my lawyer's name,
Speaker 1: right like it's the only way that we will ever
Speaker 1: take up more space in this industry is if we
Speaker 1: share information, this mindset that like, oh, we have to
Speaker 1: be cling to what you have because you don't want
Speaker 1: her to get it or her to get it. That's
Speaker 1: complete bullshit, Like there's enough room for all of us.
Speaker 1: We need to have that mindset and we will all
Speaker 1: win and rise up when we share information with each other.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I to that point.
Speaker 1: He's like, whenever I see companies that are hosting like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're doing a contest where if you submit your idea,
Speaker 1: maybe we'll make your show, I'm always like in the
Speaker 1: Instagram comments like, hey, what's the ownership look like?
Speaker 2: What's the IP look like? Great contest? Like do they
Speaker 2: own it? Like? How does it work? What's the adsplit? Yay?
Speaker 2: Like that's me in the comments asking those questions.
Speaker 4: I was at a festival and they had one of
Speaker 4: those like activations like picture podcasts.
Speaker 2: I was like, don't do good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think for black people in podcasting and
Speaker 3: in writing in general, I've come up against that question
Speaker 3: of like what I choose to share and what I
Speaker 3: don't choose to share because as a creator, it's a
Speaker 3: it's it's like a generative process and a part of
Speaker 3: the process that there can be fear around, but it
Speaker 3: can be important to share certain things and to not
Speaker 3: be afraid to put yourself out there all the time.
Speaker 3: But especially as black creators in American media, it's important
Speaker 3: for us to protect ourselves and the work that we create.
Speaker 3: So it can definitely be a fine line to tiptoe.
Speaker 2: More after a.
Speaker 1: Quick break, let's get right back into it.
Speaker 4: I think it goes beyond just sharing information, honestly, Like
Speaker 4: I can speak to it from the book publishing side
Speaker 4: of it, and I'm getting like less than fifteen percent
Speaker 4: of list price. And I have done all the work
Speaker 4: on this book. I thought of the idea, I've gotten
Speaker 4: all the people together, I'm designing it, and I'm not
Speaker 4: a designer, but I'm like showing the designer everything that
Speaker 4: I want to do, written, everything I travel, you know,
Speaker 4: all these things. And I'm getting less than fifteen percent
Speaker 4: of list price. So like even if I told somebody
Speaker 4: that coming in, like if I said, ease, I'm getting
Speaker 4: this much, Like okay, like maybe you can get like
Speaker 4: one more percent, but like I don't know, I don't
Speaker 4: think like that's truly going to make a change. And
Speaker 4: like a lot of people's books are very personal. Like
Speaker 4: I don't know if y'all read the memoir Heavy by
Speaker 4: Kisa Leiman, but it's like a very personal book. And
Speaker 4: the books you've written before, it's like got one thousand
Speaker 4: dollars total for those books, and it's like this is
Speaker 4: the publishing industry, Like this is what they do, like
Speaker 4: even if you're going to be a really big name.
Speaker 4: So I think it goes beyond sharing information and like actually,
Speaker 4: like you said, like making our own thing and like
Speaker 4: having it cooperatively owned and not like wanting to like
Speaker 4: cozy up with these like big companies, which I know
Speaker 4: is like so like hard to not think is really cool.
Speaker 4: But I feel like every time I think something's really
Speaker 4: cool and I'm like, fuck, this isn't cool.
Speaker 2: It's not no you know what. You know, those big
Speaker 2: companies aren't cool. You know what's cool? Katie's cool, Like
Speaker 2: you know, you're cool.
Speaker 1: Like it's such a weird it's such a you're so right,
Speaker 1: it's such a hard thing to turn off that being
Speaker 1: associated with X y Z big brand or big company
Speaker 1: or big publisher or big network or whatever, that is
Speaker 1: going to make me feel successful And it's just not true,
Speaker 1: and it's like half the time those deals don't look
Speaker 1: as shanny as they as they appear on the outside
Speaker 1: on Instagram. Right, And you're so right that I think
Speaker 1: it's not just information sharing. It goes beyond that of like,
Speaker 1: here's the reality of what it looked like for me
Speaker 1: to work with this company, so that you can decide
Speaker 1: if it's worth it for you to work with this
Speaker 1: company to only get X y Z of the price. Right.
Speaker 2: And I agree. I think it really has to go
Speaker 2: back to.
Speaker 1: Building more abundant models for us to put our stories
Speaker 1: and ideas out there that don't involve having to cozy
Speaker 1: up with companies just because they have a big name
Speaker 1: but a terrible reputation about how they treat people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I also think it goes back to the
Speaker 4: personal branding, because I will be the first time to say, like,
Speaker 4: I'm like, I like make an announcement about my book,
Speaker 4: like I have a book deal with the biggest publisher
Speaker 4: in the world, and it's just like, well, and I'm
Speaker 4: not going to be like and I'm getting like shitty
Speaker 4: royalties and like all this stuff, Like I ain't saying
Speaker 4: all that, you know, because I want to get my
Speaker 4: Instagram like so off and for people to buy the
Speaker 4: book to tell me congratulations. I think it goes back
Speaker 4: to like the personal branding, like yeah.
Speaker 3: And that makes me think about just going back to
Speaker 3: our initial ideas around this about how personal branding is
Speaker 3: a form of storytelling. We craft a certain story about
Speaker 3: ourselves when we're telling our personal brands. We choose to
Speaker 3: give this, we choose not to give that. And I
Speaker 3: pulled a definition from personal brand dot com which I had.
Speaker 6: No idea existed before this episode, but they specifically say
Speaker 6: a personal brand is a widely recognized and largely uniform
Speaker 6: perception or impression of an individual based on their experience, expertise, competencies, actions, YadA.
Speaker 3: YadA, YadA. All the rest of that definition. You can
Speaker 3: go look it up. But the point is is that
Speaker 3: it's clearly a crafted thing. It is when we create
Speaker 3: our personal brands, we are thinking. We're being intentional about
Speaker 3: what we choose to share and what we don't based
Speaker 3: on how we want to be seen. So I know
Speaker 3: that we've used the word authentic a couple of times
Speaker 3: in this conversation. I was wondering, Bridget, if you think
Speaker 3: it's even possible for us to be authentic and maintain
Speaker 3: a sense of self in how we express ourselves when
Speaker 3: we are doing this personal branding.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely not.
Speaker 1: I mean I think I think, based on the definition
Speaker 1: that you just read that I agree with and our
Speaker 1: conversation here, I think it's I mean, I don't think
Speaker 1: it's a lie. You know, when Katie says like, oh,
Speaker 1: I have this great book, deal with this great publisher
Speaker 1: and all of that, leaving out the bit about the
Speaker 1: parts that maybe aren't so exciting that she's not doesn't
Speaker 1: not thrilled about. That's not a lie. It's just selective.
Speaker 1: It's just you're only getting a partial view into it
Speaker 1: that Katie wants to control, right, And that makes all
Speaker 1: the sense in the world. So I don't think it's
Speaker 1: I don't think it's inauthentic to mean dishonest, but I
Speaker 1: do think it's selective. And we should all like have
Speaker 1: that in our minds when we're scrolling Instagram every day,
Speaker 1: that we're not getting the full lens into whatever whatever
Speaker 1: is actually going on with people when they're branding themselves online,
Speaker 1: Like I'm not giving my full self and how these
Speaker 1: things feel for me when I'm branding myself and I
Speaker 1: don't think the people that I'm consuming their content, I
Speaker 1: don't think that they are either. And I would also add, like,
Speaker 1: I think that it's really important to be branding yourself
Speaker 1: online if you're a person making something in twenty twenty four. However,
Speaker 1: I think that I've really found power in doing it,
Speaker 1: understanding that I have to do it, but then not
Speaker 1: really putting too much stock into it because how many
Speaker 1: likes my stuff gets or whatever it feels good like,
Speaker 1: it's like a like who doesn't like it when they're
Speaker 1: when like all their friends are in the comments like yay,
Speaker 1: good job.
Speaker 2: But you really have to like have a sense of.
Speaker 1: What success looks like, like what nourishment looks like for you. Right, So, like,
Speaker 1: I know stories that I want to tell, the work
Speaker 1: I want to put out, I know how closely it
Speaker 1: aligns with my actual values. Those are the kinds of
Speaker 1: things that make me feel like a successful creative. And
Speaker 1: I have to be really clear about the things that
Speaker 1: like are the benchmarks of success for me, and what
Speaker 1: are not the benchmarks of success for me? What just
Speaker 1: like feels good and if I'm having a bad day
Speaker 1: might give me a pickup, right, And so I think
Speaker 1: it's important to not conflate those two things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I also think it's important to acknowledge how that
Speaker 3: self selection, even though we have agency when we're doing it,
Speaker 3: it can also be exhausting. Like just because we're doing
Speaker 3: something we have control over doesn't mean that it doesn't
Speaker 3: also take like a mental and spiritual toll on us
Speaker 3: having to segment those parts of ourselves. Because black people
Speaker 3: we have to compartmentalize in so many different ways already.
Speaker 3: We have to be respectable sometimes, you know, we have
Speaker 3: to tone shift. We have to do so many different
Speaker 3: things of like how we think about how we appear
Speaker 3: to other people in order to ensure our safety. So
Speaker 3: when we self select in doing that and personal branding,
Speaker 3: I think some of those things can also come up
Speaker 3: around how it takes a toll in our bodies and
Speaker 3: how it takes a toll in our spirits. And I
Speaker 3: think that is also an important thing to acknowledge because
Speaker 3: both of those things can exist at the same time.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and it's so funny that you could be
Speaker 1: crafting and in control of your personal brand, but still
Speaker 1: very aware of like needing or wanting to come off
Speaker 1: as a certain way, like more palatable or something. And
Speaker 1: it's like, if there's ever a time where you should
Speaker 1: be the person in control of how you show up,
Speaker 1: it's like your little corner of the Internet. But I
Speaker 1: don't feel that way. I wonder if you all feel
Speaker 1: that way. You know, I don't really want to be
Speaker 1: in spaces where I have to show up a certain
Speaker 1: way in order to be accepted there.
Speaker 2: However, even as.
Speaker 1: I curate my little corner of my personal brand Internet,
Speaker 1: I am aware of that sort of double consciousness that
Speaker 1: you're talking about.
Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, I feel.
Speaker 4: Like if I truly showed up how I am, I
Speaker 4: would be online like an FBI is most Wanted List, like.
Speaker 1: We all have black pillow our heads in some secret.
Speaker 5: Room, like girl, I ain't even trying to get that
Speaker 5: deep with y'all for real.
Speaker 3: Like, and then there are often times of dissonance for
Speaker 3: me where I feel like I'm branded a certain I
Speaker 3: can go look at my website. Y'all know I'm Southern.
Speaker 3: Y'all know I'm gonna say y'all, y'all know I'm finna
Speaker 3: ad be in front of things. And then, like you know,
Speaker 3: when I'm in certain rooms, I mean, that's how I am,
Speaker 3: that's my personality oftentimes, but you know that excuse me, yeah,
Speaker 3: but that that there's a dissonance between my brand and
Speaker 3: like how I do show up in some ways, not
Speaker 3: necessarily because I am cutting off parts of myself, just
Speaker 3: because I'm multiple people, Like I'm different ways in different places.
Speaker 3: So also speaking of being multiple people and showing up
Speaker 3: in different ways, I would have never expected you, Bridget,
Speaker 3: to align yourself with Walter White. But so that's something
Speaker 3: I wasn't expecting you to say. There is one thing
Speaker 3: I want to say, just that I think we would
Speaker 3: be remiss or I would be remiss not to say
Speaker 3: that you were part of that information sharing for us,
Speaker 3: Bridget as we were doing this podcast, like you shared
Speaker 3: your contract with us. So when y'all hear Bridget say that,
Speaker 3: know that she's telling the truth, I would do the same.
Speaker 3: You know, anybody can come to me. I will be
Speaker 3: transparent about that. And I can't solve all your problems.
Speaker 3: I'm not a lawyer. I don't know intellectual property law.
Speaker 3: You know there are other people who will need to
Speaker 3: be on your support team, but I would be happy
Speaker 3: to be of whatever kind of assistance I would like
Speaker 3: to be.
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, this is my favorite topic. Like I
Speaker 1: will tell you how much money I make, down to
Speaker 1: the penny. I will like, like, I'm curious about other
Speaker 1: creatives how much money they make. There's so much smoke
Speaker 1: and mirrors, So like I want to know how much
Speaker 1: your house cost. I will ask the question, and I'm
Speaker 1: happy to give that information back to others.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes, So it turns out.
Speaker 1: That Eve's, Katie, and myself all feel this similar strain
Speaker 1: of discomfort around the idea of personal branding. All wanted
Speaker 1: to know what that experience of personal branding is like
Speaker 1: for one another as black creatives, and what happens when
Speaker 1: it feels really exhausting, and what it all means for
Speaker 1: our digital selves. Got a story about an interesting thing
Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi? You can
Speaker 1: read us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can
Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tenggody dot com.
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by
Speaker 1: me Bridget tod It's a production of iHeartRadio, an Unbossed creative.
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our
Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, bridget Todd. If you want to help
Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review.
Speaker 2: Us on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts