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Speaker 1: There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Brigitta and this is

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Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet. So I've been

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Speaker 1: seeing this idea everywhere that if you want to do

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Speaker 1: basically anything right now, you have to have.

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Speaker 2: A personal brand to do it.

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Speaker 1: Want to be a writer, you better have a big

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Speaker 1: social media following or some kind of online platform.

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Speaker 2: Want to be in real.

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Speaker 1: Estate, You'll need a cohesive social media brand to set

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Speaker 1: you apart from the competition. Want to be a musician,

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Speaker 1: how's your social media video game? We even talked about

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Speaker 1: what happens when this need to always be branding goes

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Speaker 1: really extreme and dark, like that surgeon who lost her

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Speaker 1: medical license because she was live streaming the surgeries as

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Speaker 1: part of her social media brand. Vox actually reported on

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Speaker 1: this phenomena in a piece called Everyone's a sellout?

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Speaker 2: Now they right?

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Speaker 1: The Internet has made it so that no matter or

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Speaker 1: what you do or who you are, from nine to

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Speaker 1: five middle managers to astronauts to house cleaners, you cannot

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Speaker 1: escape the tyranny of the personal brand. For some, it

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Speaker 1: looks like updating your LinkedIn connections whenever you get promoted.

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Speaker 1: For others, it's asking customers to give you five stars

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Speaker 1: on Google Reviews. For still more, it's crafting and engaging

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Speaker 1: but authentic persona on Instagram. And for people who hop

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Speaker 1: to publish a bestseller or release a hit record, it's

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Speaker 1: quote building a platform so that executives can use their

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Speaker 1: existing audience to justify the cost of citing a new artist.

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Speaker 1: As a podcaster, I know this feeling innately like down

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Speaker 1: in my bones. What I love to do is having

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Speaker 1: conversations about the world around me on a microphone. But

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Speaker 1: in order to do that successfully, I have to be

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Speaker 1: a video editor, a social media marker.

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Speaker 2: And beyond.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot, and personally, I always feel like whatever

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Speaker 1: I'm doing, I'm kind of doing it wrong.

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Speaker 3: I am Eve's Jeff Coo. I am the co host

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Speaker 3: and co creator of On Theme, which is a podcast

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Speaker 3: with iHeartRadio that's about black storytelling and all its forms.

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Speaker 4: And I'm also a I'm Katie Mitchell, the other co

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Speaker 4: host of On Theme and the author of Prose to

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Speaker 4: the People, a book about black bookstores, set is coming

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Speaker 4: out in twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Eves and Katie know exactly what I'm talking about. They're

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Speaker 1: both writers and creatives, and together they make a podcast

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Speaker 1: celebrating black storytelling in all of its forms called on Theme,

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Speaker 1: which you should definitely listen to, because what is personal

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Speaker 1: branding if not a form of selective storytelling about who

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Speaker 1: we are.

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Speaker 3: So I have a lot of feelings about social media

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Speaker 3: and about what branding means, and I definitely rub up

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Speaker 3: against some friction a lot of the time when I'm

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Speaker 3: thinking about what branding means and kind of feeling compelled

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Speaker 3: to come up with the brand and do the active branding.

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Speaker 3: But I am wondering, since you're very in tune with

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Speaker 3: social media and digital media strategy, what exactly does personal

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Speaker 3: branding mean to you?

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Speaker 1: To mesonal, branding is very powerful. It's a necessary way

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Speaker 1: to show up online. It is a necessary way to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the people that you want to be

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Speaker 1: in conversation with, the people that you want to give

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Speaker 1: you money to make things that they think of you

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Speaker 1: when they think of whatever it is that.

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Speaker 2: You specialize in.

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Speaker 1: However, I would also say personal branding is really exhausting.

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Speaker 1: I think that it's something that we are forced to

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Speaker 1: do because we live in a capitalistic, white supremacy society

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Speaker 1: that kind of forces us to be not just making

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Speaker 1: the thing and excited about making the thing, but selling

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Speaker 1: how we make the thing.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I just don't.

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Speaker 1: I think that any conversation about personal branding also has

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Speaker 1: to be rooted with the fact that sometimes it feels

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Speaker 1: like we are forced to do that kind of work

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Speaker 1: in addition to the work that we want to be doing.

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Speaker 4: So, given your stance on personal branding, give us your

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Speaker 4: personal brand a bio tell us who we are?

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Speaker 1: Oh man, so who I am, and as it pertains

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Speaker 1: to my how I've branded myself personally, or like.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like if we were if I was a big

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Speaker 4: shot in an elevator who had the money, like, what

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Speaker 4: would you say to get some off of me?

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Speaker 1: First of all, I would say, if you're a billionaire,

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Speaker 1: you probably didn't get that money ethically. So you want

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Speaker 1: to say it funds your content?

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Speaker 2: No? No, no, no, well no.

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Speaker 1: I did once to get drunk at a party with

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Speaker 1: very rich people, and I asked somebody how much their

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Speaker 1: house costs.

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Speaker 2: My friend was like, that's such a rud question.

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Speaker 5: We'll do that when I'm not drunk.

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Speaker 1: So if I was in an elevator with a big

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Speaker 1: shot media professional, I would say that along with my

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Speaker 1: amazing team, with folks like Tari Harrison and Joey Pat,

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Speaker 1: I make conversations about technology and the policy and the

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Speaker 1: people that run it. I make those accessible, and I

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Speaker 1: make those in ways that highlight the reality that it

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Speaker 1: is traditionally marginalized people who make technology what it is.

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Speaker 1: And so we're fostering and curating conversations that really deepen

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Speaker 1: the perspective of black folks, queer folks, black women, trans folks,

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Speaker 1: working people, all the kinds of people that are often

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Speaker 1: left out of conversations about technology, the Internet, social media,

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Speaker 1: what it means, and the policy that shapes it. We

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Speaker 1: start there like that is our starting point for those conversations.

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Speaker 3: I can tell you've done that before, Bridget I.

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Speaker 5: Give you some money.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna right money, please.

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Speaker 4: So when you are thinking about personal branding, like because

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Speaker 4: I've went to your website and I was and I

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Speaker 4: listened to your show, I'm like, I truly don't know

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Speaker 4: anything else about you besides what you like put out

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Speaker 4: there that's pertaining to your professional career. Like I don't

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Speaker 4: know if you got a man, you got a woman,

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Speaker 4: you got kids. I don't know nothing I'm like, I'm

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Speaker 4: nosy and I want to know those things, but I

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Speaker 4: feel like you personally, like purposely don't put those out there,

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Speaker 4: So like, what story are you focused on telling?

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Speaker 5: And what story are you?

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Speaker 4: Like, No, that's a distraction for why I'm trying to

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Speaker 4: get at Katie.

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Speaker 1: That is a very like that is you're good with

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Speaker 1: your internet sleuthing because you would have to dig pretty deep,

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Speaker 1: I think to find out personal information about me, and

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Speaker 1: that is very much with intention and by design, and

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Speaker 1: I think it goes back to what I personally have

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Speaker 1: found about my branding is that because I find personal

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Speaker 1: branding and sort of storytelling about myself online, I find

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Speaker 1: it kind of exhausting and I don't really like participating

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Speaker 1: in it that much these days, but I know I

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Speaker 1: kind of have to because of the career that I'm in.

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Speaker 1: I am very intentional about it. I almost would use

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Speaker 1: the phrase like, you know, kind of neutrally manipulative. I

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Speaker 1: don't want any I only want someone to be able

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Speaker 1: to say like, oh, well, she does x y Z

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Speaker 1: kind of work, she's interested in X y Z kind

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Speaker 1: of projects.

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Speaker 2: And part of it is.

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Speaker 1: Because you know, I care quite a bit about my

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Speaker 1: work and my professional identity, but my real identity, the

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Speaker 1: people that I love, my community, my values, all of that.

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Speaker 1: I kind of hold that a bit closer to my

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Speaker 1: chest because I don't want that to be something that

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Speaker 1: is a personal an exhaustive personal branding exercise. Right Like

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Speaker 1: when I'm spending time with my family, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to feel that I have to be digitally curating a

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Speaker 1: story about that time. Otherwise it doesn't count. That's just

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Speaker 1: like not a not a dynamic. I'm really interested in

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Speaker 1: bringing in to certain parts of my life, but I'm

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Speaker 1: happy to talk about it with you on in terms

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Speaker 1: of how I brand myself, it doesn't really show up.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I'm nosy, I want to know who let's talk

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Speaker 5: about that after Katie.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious, like how is it shown up for

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Speaker 1: like how do you two as creatives and hosts and

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Speaker 1: people who have platforms and make things like how do you?

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Speaker 2: How have you found that dynamic?

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Speaker 5: I think we approach very differently.

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Speaker 3: Say more about that.

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Speaker 4: I think cause like I don't have like a website

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Speaker 4: about myself or anything I've taken to like also not

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Speaker 4: like really posting anything about my family, and I used

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Speaker 4: to I felt like people asked me questions, I just

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Speaker 4: felt like I had to answer, like and it's like

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Speaker 4: so silly to say. It was like, you actually don't

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Speaker 4: have to tell people things just because they ask you that, Like, oh,

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Speaker 4: guy Ross is asking me about my grandpa, I have

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Speaker 4: to tell him and I'm just like, oh no, I don't.

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Speaker 4: So like I've tapered off of that. I feel like

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Speaker 4: I've grown into like cause like in my personal life,

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Speaker 4: I'm very like to myself, like I don't even be

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Speaker 4: telling my friends like every single thing. So I'm like,

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Speaker 4: why am I telling the internet every single thing? And

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Speaker 4: I think I got to that very quickly. It's like, actually,

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Speaker 4: I don't like this, Like I feel like I don't

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Speaker 4: really have a curated personal brand. Maybe my personal brand

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Speaker 4: is like not having one, like being mysterious I would

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Speaker 4: like to think. I was like, yeah, my agent was like,

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Speaker 4: you need to have a website and you need to

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Speaker 4: do this, and I'm just like, hmm, I hear you,

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Speaker 4: but I'm not going to do that.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, they tried to do the same thing to me,

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Speaker 3: like back in like years ago, when I first started

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Speaker 3: hosting podcasts, they were like, you should probably set up

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Speaker 3: a Twitter I mean, and look how that's gone today,

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Speaker 3: you know. But I mean, I have felt compelled to

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Speaker 3: be to have a public presence, but that feeling of

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Speaker 3: being compelled has never actually led me to do anything

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Speaker 3: that I'm uncomfortable with, because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: I know that I have control over what I choose

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Speaker 3: to share with people and how I choose to share it.

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Speaker 3: So I have found myself telling myself that I want

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Speaker 3: to share more, but if that doesn't show up right

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Speaker 3: in my body, then I don't do it. So I

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Speaker 3: have shared more in the places where I feel most comfortable,

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Speaker 3: which for me oftentimes that is if it's on social media,

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Speaker 3: then that's in the Instagram space. But if that's outside

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Speaker 3: on the internet, like you know, just the articles that

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Speaker 3: I write in the podcast that I produce, those are

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Speaker 3: spaces where I know that I have creative more creative control,

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Speaker 3: and they're subject to scrutiny in different ways, or at

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Speaker 3: least more measured scrutiny. I don't think I have a

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Speaker 3: personal brand either, but I think maybe one has been

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Speaker 3: constructed for me and my chosen interest. Actually, speaking of

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Speaker 3: this bridget We've talked about this before in the title

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Speaker 3: of public intellectual and how that's something that is like

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Speaker 3: I would be labeled as regardless.

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Speaker 5: Whether or not I would choose to call myself that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you are one.

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Speaker 1: I don't think somebody comes down from the sky and

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Speaker 1: as like Eves, I w a public intellectual.

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Speaker 2: You are one.

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Speaker 1: You publicly opine and have good takes and good opinions,

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Speaker 1: and you're part of the public conversation and people look

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Speaker 1: to you. The people who are listening to on theme,

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Speaker 1: they listen to the both of you to help them understand,

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Speaker 1: you know, what they should be help shape their own opinions.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think you are a public intellectual.

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Speaker 1: Even if you don't feel like you would ever call

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Speaker 1: yourself one, you both definitely are.

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Speaker 3: I feel like I'm getting a therapy session right now

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Speaker 3: and helping me work through some things.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: Also, think about all the kinds of people who wouldn't

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Speaker 1: feel like I just know a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: are like, oh, I'm a X Y Z expert, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I feel like experts the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing that other people have to call you.

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Speaker 2: It's you're calling yourself one. That's interesting.

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Speaker 1: And I think more more people who have actual good

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Speaker 1: things to offer the world should take ownership of those

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Speaker 1: labels that mean so much.

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Speaker 5: So what would you say, you're an expert in.

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Speaker 1: Oh, god, nothing, No, that's not true. I am an

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Speaker 1: expert in This is a good question. I am an

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Speaker 1: expert in curiosity. I know that's kind of a cop

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Speaker 1: out answer, but you know, like, that's one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why I love podcasting is that you really just

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Speaker 1: get to poke and product people. And you know, Katie,

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Speaker 1: you said something earlier and Eves was like, Oh, tell

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Speaker 1: me more about that. If there was a question that

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Speaker 1: animates my entire existence in this world, and probably tell

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Speaker 1: me more about that, because I am just genuinely very

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Speaker 1: curious about who people are, what motivates them, their values,

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Speaker 1: where they see themselves, how they see the world. So

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Speaker 1: I think I'm an expert in curiosity.

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Speaker 3: So you have your own personal experience with personal branding,

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Speaker 3: But when you see other people and the ways that

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Speaker 3: they choose to personal brand in public, what are your

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Speaker 3: feelings about that, Like, do you have any sort of

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Speaker 3: initial emotions that come up when you think of the

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Speaker 3: ways that people have to personal brand on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody can relate to this feeling

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Speaker 1: but lately I have made a lot of intentional efforts

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Speaker 1: to sort of step back and be a little more

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Speaker 1: selective about how my own brand shows up online. And

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Speaker 1: also I've made the choice to care a little bit

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Speaker 1: less about it and say, like, if I want to

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Speaker 1: be a kick ass podcaster, I'm going to lean into

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Speaker 1: podcasting and the personal branding stuff can come second, and

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Speaker 1: that's okay. However, lately, I have felt like when I

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Speaker 1: scroll social media, I am just constantly being bombarded with

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Speaker 1: the ways that I'm getting it wrong, the ways that

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, you're not making reels. You should be

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Speaker 1: making tiktoks like this. You should be offering your audience this.

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Speaker 1: If you want to grow, do that. And I think

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Speaker 1: part of that is just the nature of social media algorithms.

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Speaker 1: It seems like every other month Ada mos Ari, the

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Speaker 1: head of Instagram, will be like, oh, well, last month,

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Speaker 1: we told creators if they wanted to use Instagram to

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Speaker 1: the best of their ability, they should be doing X.

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Speaker 2: Now it's why.

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Speaker 1: And I realized that I just have no interest in

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Speaker 1: being on this hamster wheel while where I have to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, responding to the whims of billionaires who run

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Speaker 1: tech platforms who I will never meet right, and so

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Speaker 1: I've made that decision for myself. But I don't feel

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Speaker 1: like it's very easy to sit in that choice all

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Speaker 1: the time, because constantly I'm bombarded by people who are

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Speaker 1: doing it right or have the answer or want to

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Speaker 1: sell me the answer. I often find other people's personal

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Speaker 1: branding a little bit exhausting, and it's so just like

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Speaker 1: me projecting my own insecurities and anxiety around it onto them,

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Speaker 1: like they're not doing anything wrong. But it sometimes it

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Speaker 1: seems hard to just exist online without constantly branding yourself

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Speaker 1: and constantly selling people on who you are. Like whatever

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Speaker 1: happened to kicking it online or having fun online or

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Speaker 1: finding community online in a way that wasn't like just

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Speaker 1: intentionally branding yourself as some sort of expert in your field.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but that also makes me think about how corporations

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Speaker 3: and commercial institutions, how their anxieties and their issues have

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Speaker 3: been projected onto us, and how we've kind of had

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Speaker 3: to co op them in our own efforts to survive

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Speaker 3: and live in this world. And I'm wondering if you

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Speaker 3: see any differences in the way that black people have

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Speaker 3: had to operate in that space of being forced to

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Speaker 3: personal brand, to live and how people of other races

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Speaker 3: have operated in that space. Do you feel differently about them?

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Speaker 3: Do you see a difference between the two.

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Speaker 1: I do see a difference. I think the stakes are

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Speaker 1: different for us, you know. I mean, I think historically

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Speaker 1: we have a lot less access, So we have a

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Speaker 1: lot less access to platforms and spaces and traditional media outlets,

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Speaker 1: and we've really had to build our own platforms and

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Speaker 1: spaces and media outlets. If you want to be heard

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Speaker 1: and want to be able to show up as our

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Speaker 1: authentic selves, that is a gift. That is a gift

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Speaker 1: that we as black folks have always had, is building

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Speaker 1: our own tables when we're not invited to other people's stables, right,

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Speaker 1: So I want to honor the fact that that is

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Speaker 1: a truly a gift and a legacy. So I'm not

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Speaker 1: knocking that. However, I think that because of that, we

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Speaker 1: kind of always have to be doing that, and like

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Speaker 1: there's a feeling that if you stop doing that, you'll

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Speaker 1: cease to exist or you'll cease to get those opportunities.

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Speaker 1: And I actually really do believe that. I think that

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Speaker 1: if I were to take a year off of social media,

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Speaker 1: or a year off of making my podcast, I think

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Speaker 1: that it would be that much harder for me to

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Speaker 1: come back because people will be like, oh, what like

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Speaker 1: in that year, I didn't see you constantly posting what

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Speaker 1: awards you were winning, or constantly and posting what content

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Speaker 1: you were making, So I guess you didn't exist, right,

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Speaker 1: And So I think that because of these because of

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Speaker 1: the way that historically we have been shut out of

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Speaker 1: that kind of access, I think it creates this kind

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Speaker 1: of need to be doing something that luckily we're quite

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Speaker 1: good at, which is building our own platforms. And I

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Speaker 1: just yeah, I just want to make sure that when

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Speaker 1: we talk about that, we're talking about it in a

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Speaker 1: way that both honors how great that is, but also

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Speaker 1: is tuned into how tough that can be, that feeling

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Speaker 1: can be, to be like, oh, I can't even take

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Speaker 1: a break for a moment, I always have to be branding.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if we're already black people, is the way I'm

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Speaker 3: talking about already subject to so much scrutiny because even

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Speaker 3: when we're visible in the very smallest of ways. So

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Speaker 3: what do you think that kind of loop of visibility

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Speaker 3: of having to be present at all times just by

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Speaker 3: nature of the Internet, but also because we're black, how

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Speaker 3: does that affect like how we are treated in terms

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Speaker 3: of our visibility and hypervisibility.

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Speaker 1: Hypervisibility is a good word for it, because it's like,

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Speaker 1: as black folks who show up online, we're both hyper visible,

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Speaker 1: but in a lot of ways erased or overlooked. And

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Speaker 1: it's just very interesting to me how you can sort

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Speaker 1: of be both. I've had accomplishments in my life where

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Speaker 1: things happen in my life that I don't put on

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Speaker 1: social media and people act like they don't exist, and

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Speaker 1: so I'm really challenging myself to sort of resist that internally.

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Speaker 1: And I really think about this quote from MICHAELA. Cole

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Speaker 1: when I think she won an Emmy, and she said,

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Speaker 1: in a world that entices us to browse through the

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Speaker 1: lives of others to help us better determine how we

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Speaker 1: feel about ourselves, and to in turn feel the need

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Speaker 1: to be constantly visible. For visibility these days seems to

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Speaker 1: somehow equate to success. Do not be afraid to disappear

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Speaker 1: from it, from us for a while and see what

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Speaker 1: comes to you in the silence. And I have always

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Speaker 1: found so much power in that quote because when you

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Speaker 1: have that silence and that space where there aren't eyes

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Speaker 1: on you. For me, that has a equated to really

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Speaker 1: making something I'm proud of, or really being able to

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Speaker 1: lean into something right.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that in.

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Speaker 1: A world that tells us that visibility is success, not

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Speaker 1: being afraid to step back and go invisible, go dark

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Speaker 1: for a little bit, you know, I think it's really

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Speaker 1: powerful to be able to do that and understand what

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Speaker 1: the power in that in a world that tells you

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Speaker 1: always have to be showing yourself and branding yourself.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever taken a social media break?

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Speaker 2: Oh? All the time? I mean I'm not. I'm not

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Speaker 2: somebody who will be like, hey, guys taking a.

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Speaker 4: Break, like like nobody cares.

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Speaker 5: Y girl, you could have kept that to yourself.

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Speaker 3: Take a nap, right, like, we wouldn't have known if

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Speaker 3: that was the algorithm or them taking a break anyway.

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Speaker 1: I definitely take long breaks, short breaks, all the breaks

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Speaker 1: from social media.

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Speaker 2: And I don't feel the need to announce it.

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Speaker 1: But isn't it so weird that you would even feel

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Speaker 1: the need to announce it, Like there's like how many

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Speaker 1: other things in your life? If you stop doing it

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Speaker 1: for a week or a month, would people be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: are you okay?

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Speaker 2: What's going on with you?

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Speaker 1: Like, if you didn't play a certain game for a month,

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Speaker 1: do you think that you would feel the need to

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Speaker 1: like announce that to the world.

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Speaker 2: I just think.

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Speaker 1: That that really, to me illustrates how we're so caught

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Speaker 1: up in this idea that everybody, everybody has to be

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Speaker 1: on social media all the time, and that you know

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Speaker 1: that's not true, Like you can you can dip in,

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Speaker 1: dip out, do it as it feels comfortable and right

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Speaker 1: to you, and truly nothing will happen.

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Speaker 4: I think that also goes to the difference between personal

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Speaker 4: branding online versus personal branding like IRL, because I don't

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Speaker 4: think people paid that much more. People pay more attention

402
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Speaker 4: to the online presence than like their in person presence.

403
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Speaker 4: So like you're going to think about like what outfit

404
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Speaker 4: you're posting when you're posting online, and you're going to

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Speaker 4: craft your caption really well, and you're going to like

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Speaker 4: have all this thought, But when you're out in the streets,

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Speaker 4: you're looking a mess. You've got a bond it on,

408
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Speaker 4: and you're talking crazy to the people at American DELI like,

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Speaker 4: you're not really thinking too much about your personal brand.

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Speaker 3: And when people apologize for that, they do it online,

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Speaker 3: like when they apologize for their public presence. I've seen

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Speaker 3: people say I had to where I couldn't go outside

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Speaker 3: today because I wasn't. They'll say things about like wearing

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Speaker 3: makeup or wearing a bond it out or not being

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Speaker 3: dressed to the nons, you know, not having their faces

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Speaker 3: beat and apologize for that because they know that might

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Speaker 3: show up online in a certain way, but not necessarily

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Speaker 3: because they care about how that personal interaction in real

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Speaker 3: life went.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean, by the way, I'm pro bonnet

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Speaker 4: outside just putting that out out.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying people will apologize for things like that

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Speaker 3: because they want to be perceived a certain way because

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Speaker 3: they know how their brand will show up.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But it's like the personal branding, Yeah, I'd like,

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Speaker 4: the obsession with it doesn't really for I think for

427
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Speaker 4: most people, it doesn't show up outside unless you're like

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Speaker 4: on a panel or at a conference. But like just

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Speaker 4: how you move every day, I don't see that as much.

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Speaker 1: There is this weird kind of collapse that I see

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Speaker 1: between in real life and online evens where it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: somebody might have an interaction offline that is in some

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Speaker 1: ways authentically them because they're not branding it. It's just happening,

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Speaker 1: you know, off the cuff or whatever, and then go

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Speaker 1: online to talk about that interaction in a way that

436
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Speaker 1: is part of the brand. It's so interesting how these

437
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 1: online and offline realities have kind of collapsed. And I

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Speaker 1: do think that if something like in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: the digital realm has become more real than reality in

440
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 1: some ways, where it only sort of matters how it

441
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 1: shows up online or how it's branded online and shows

442
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 1: up in reality is a lot In a lot of cases,

443
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: it's a lot less important to folks.

444
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 5: I think, yeah, for sure.

445
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 4: Are you familiar with the Google for faces pim eyes?

446
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 4: Oh yes, so I just learned about that, I think

447
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 4: last week.

448
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 5: Are you familiar with the use.

449
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 4: So it's basically like, if say I have a picture

450
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 4: of you, and you can have a mask on, you

451
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 4: can have your eyes closed, you can be like looking

452
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 4: a different way. I can put that into that and

453
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 4: it would show every instance where your face appears online,

454
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 4: whether you posted it, whether you're just like in the

455
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 4: background of somebody else's picture, just everything, and like learning

456
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 4: about that really just like made me want to just

457
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 4: go further away from not branding myself. Like I was, like,

458
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 4: I want to remove every picture of myself from online

459
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 4: just because, Like I think when we first started doing this,

460
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 4: I would say like for us, maybe like the early

461
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 4: twenty tens, we had no idea like what the internet

462
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 4: was going to be, and so like now in twenty

463
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 4: twenty four, I still like we still don't have a

464
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 4: true idea, but we see a little bit more, and

465
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 4: to me, it's like very scary what the internet is

466
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 4: about to be.

467
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely agree.

468
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 1: You know, I think I might be a little older

469
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 1: than both of you, But I remember when I first

470
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: got Facebook, I was an undergrad in college and I

471
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: graduated college in two thousand and seven, two thousand and seven,

472
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: and this was when the main thing was like you

473
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: are connecting with your friends, you are going out to

474
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: a nightclub, you are taking a thousand pictures from that

475
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: single outing, posting all of them pits days, and all

476
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 1: of them for sure pit stains. Yeah, like albums, right,

477
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 1: And so I think that was sort of that the

478
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: heyday when we really really kind of it was easy

479
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: to think of this as something that was about connection

480
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: here in twenty twenty four. I don't think that anybody

481
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,479
Speaker 1: feels like social media platforms are offering us genuine connection anymore.

482
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 1: I think what they're offering us is exploitation. I think

483
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 1: what they're offering us is anxiety. I think what they're

484
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: offering us is surveillance, criminal, is all kinds of things.

485
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, that idea of connecting

486
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: with your friends, even if you look at your if

487
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,959
Speaker 1: you if you open Instagram right now and scroll your

488
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: you know.

489
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 2: Whatever, their version of their feed.

490
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: A lot of the stuff that you're being shown is

491
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: it from your friends or people that you've opted to follow.

492
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: It's algorithmically generated content that they want you to see

493
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 1: that they think that you might like, right, And so

494
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 1: I think that what is I think we should be

495
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: asking what that means for our role in all of this,

496
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: how we fit into that If social media platforms are

497
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: going to go to a place where it's more about

498
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: like surfacing you content than connection.

499
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: So if you're no longer connecting with your.

500
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: Friends, are we all like Katie Eves and Bridget are

501
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: we all now de facto content creators? Or or what

502
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 1: like are we the audience here? I think that we

503
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: really need to have a more refined role in how

504
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: we fit into this because the two thousand and six,

505
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight days are

506
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: like way behind us in terms of how this is

507
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: all working.

508
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 4: We're living in unpresidented time, but we've been doing so

509
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 4: for for a while now. It's not like, oh, we

510
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 4: have like one one event that happens. It's like, ooh

511
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 4: that was unprecedented, Glad that's over. It's just like all

512
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 4: of it, like the evolution of it is just like,

513
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 4: oh my god, Like what's next?

514
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 5: What are we going to do?

515
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 4: And as a podcaster, Bridget, I'm interested in getting your

516
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 4: take on like who owns our personal brands? Because it

517
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 4: sounds like, oh, it's our personal brand, we own it,

518
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 4: but you know, like as contractors, like do we own

519
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 4: those or is it you know, XYZ Corporation media conglomerate

520
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 4: that owns our personal branding?

521
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 5: What do you think about that?

522
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: Well, as a company girl, I have to shout out

523
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: the good folks that iHeart radio definitely own my brand

524
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 1: and all of the things that come with it. No,

525
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 1: I'm kidding, I mean I think your question is it's

526
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 1: like a really good one. I am. I might be

527
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: a weird person to ask because I'm particular about ownership, right.

528
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: If you ever watched that show Breaking Bad and Walter White,

529
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: one of the reasons it's like revealed by that. One

530
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: of the reasons why he's so weird about his math

531
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: recipe is that he was cut out of a cut

532
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: out of a deal when he was a scientist and

533
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: he didn't have ownership over a product that he made,

534
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: and it like stuck with him. I kind of feel

535
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: like that's a little bit of my origin story too,

536
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: where I am a real I am very particular about ownership.

537
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: I would rather get screwed on the money and have

538
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: more ownership of something. I don't know if that's like

539
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: the best choice, but part of it is because of

540
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: that discomfort around who owns what. I just hate the

541
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: idea that something that I create, right, something that I conceptualized,

542
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: that I put my heart and soul into, that came

543
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: from me, that was that was colored by all of

544
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 1: the experiences that I have brought with me to this

545
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: to this world, that somebody else could be like, oh well,

546
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: that's just another point in our annual sales meeting about

547
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: how we're doing right, So like I am, I'm like

548
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: very weird about that kind of thing, and I do.

549
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I've had situations where the line of ownership

550
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: who owns what about me and my work and my

551
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: brand isn't so clear, And so these days I'm trying

552
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: to really move through the creative professional world with a

553
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 1: lot more clarity about where the lines are about who

554
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: owns what about you know, who has the final say,

555
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: who has control, who makes the money all of that,

556
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: because I think it's I think you need to you know.

557
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,719
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too into it, but like

558
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 1: when I was first coming up in podcasting, I've signed

559
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: some deals that I wish I had looked at a

560
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: little closer, because I would see, like, oh, I'm I'm inherently,

561
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: both in the work and on paper, just generating stuff

562
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: for other people. And so no matter how much of

563
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: myself I put into that, I'm only going to ever

564
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: be generating for others's supposed to generating for myself. And

565
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: so yeah, I feel a bit burned on that in

566
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: some ways and really trying to move now with a

567
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: little more clarity around it. But again, as creative so

568
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: it'd be really curious how you all are navigating that

569
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: as well.

570
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 2: Well.

571
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: I was just about to say you are. You would

572
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 3: not be the only person to say that, Bridget, And

573
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 3: I think it's like comforting to hear that coming from you,

574
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 3: a person who's worked on so many podcasts, because these

575
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 3: deals were happening then and they're still happening now. And yeah,

576
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 3: I think pretty difficult to navigate because if you're working

577
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 3: with the company, there's going to be some trade offs,

578
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 3: and the question is that you have to ask yourself,

579
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 3: like what are those trade offs to you? And what

580
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 3: are the most important parts of it to you? Those

581
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 3: questions are often about ownership, and I think that I

582
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 3: in the past have not been like competent enough, or

583
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 3: I haven't had the team on my side, like a

584
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 3: good lawyer on my side to be able to tell

585
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: me what the right things were. So I've been able

586
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: to learn from crowdsourcing and the sharing of information, which

587
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 3: has been amazing.

588
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: Information is power.

589
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: If anybody listening wants like DM me, I will I

590
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: will give you my contracts, I'll give you my lawyer's name,

591
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: right like it's the only way that we will ever

592
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: take up more space in this industry is if we

593
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: share information, this mindset that like, oh, we have to

594
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: be cling to what you have because you don't want

595
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: her to get it or her to get it. That's

596
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: complete bullshit, Like there's enough room for all of us.

597
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: We need to have that mindset and we will all

598
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: win and rise up when we share information with each other.

599
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 2: And yeah, I to that point.

600
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: He's like, whenever I see companies that are hosting like, oh,

601
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: we're doing a contest where if you submit your idea,

602
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: maybe we'll make your show, I'm always like in the

603
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: Instagram comments like, hey, what's the ownership look like?

604
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: What's the IP look like? Great contest? Like do they

605
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: own it? Like? How does it work? What's the adsplit? Yay?

606
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: Like that's me in the comments asking those questions.

607
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 4: I was at a festival and they had one of

608
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 4: those like activations like picture podcasts.

609
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: I was like, don't do good.

610
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think for black people in podcasting and

611
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 3: in writing in general, I've come up against that question

612
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: of like what I choose to share and what I

613
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: don't choose to share because as a creator, it's a

614
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 3: it's it's like a generative process and a part of

615
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: the process that there can be fear around, but it

616
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 3: can be important to share certain things and to not

617
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 3: be afraid to put yourself out there all the time.

618
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 3: But especially as black creators in American media, it's important

619
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 3: for us to protect ourselves and the work that we create.

620
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 3: So it can definitely be a fine line to tiptoe.

621
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: More after a.

622
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:35,959
Speaker 1: Quick break, let's get right back into it.

623
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,479
Speaker 4: I think it goes beyond just sharing information, honestly, Like

624
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 4: I can speak to it from the book publishing side

625
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 4: of it, and I'm getting like less than fifteen percent

626
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 4: of list price. And I have done all the work

627
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 4: on this book. I thought of the idea, I've gotten

628
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 4: all the people together, I'm designing it, and I'm not

629
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 4: a designer, but I'm like showing the designer everything that

630
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 4: I want to do, written, everything I travel, you know,

631
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 4: all these things. And I'm getting less than fifteen percent

632
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 4: of list price. So like even if I told somebody

633
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 4: that coming in, like if I said, ease, I'm getting

634
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 4: this much, Like okay, like maybe you can get like

635
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 4: one more percent, but like I don't know, I don't

636
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 4: think like that's truly going to make a change. And

637
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 4: like a lot of people's books are very personal. Like

638
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 4: I don't know if y'all read the memoir Heavy by

639
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 4: Kisa Leiman, but it's like a very personal book. And

640
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 4: the books you've written before, it's like got one thousand

641
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 4: dollars total for those books, and it's like this is

642
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 4: the publishing industry, Like this is what they do, like

643
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 4: even if you're going to be a really big name.

644
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 4: So I think it goes beyond sharing information and like actually,

645
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 4: like you said, like making our own thing and like

646
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 4: having it cooperatively owned and not like wanting to like

647
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 4: cozy up with these like big companies, which I know

648
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 4: is like so like hard to not think is really cool.

649
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 4: But I feel like every time I think something's really

650
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 4: cool and I'm like, fuck, this isn't cool.

651
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: It's not no you know what. You know, those big

652
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: companies aren't cool. You know what's cool? Katie's cool, Like

653
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: you know, you're cool.

654
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: Like it's such a weird it's such a you're so right,

655
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: it's such a hard thing to turn off that being

656
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: associated with X y Z big brand or big company

657
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: or big publisher or big network or whatever, that is

658
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: going to make me feel successful And it's just not true,

659
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: and it's like half the time those deals don't look

660
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: as shanny as they as they appear on the outside

661
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: on Instagram. Right, And you're so right that I think

662
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: it's not just information sharing. It goes beyond that of like,

663
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: here's the reality of what it looked like for me

664
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: to work with this company, so that you can decide

665
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: if it's worth it for you to work with this

666
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: company to only get X y Z of the price. Right.

667
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 2: And I agree. I think it really has to go

668
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: back to.

669
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: Building more abundant models for us to put our stories

670
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: and ideas out there that don't involve having to cozy

671
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: up with companies just because they have a big name

672
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: but a terrible reputation about how they treat people.

673
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I also think it goes back to the

674
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 4: personal branding, because I will be the first time to say, like,

675
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 4: I'm like, I like make an announcement about my book,

676
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 4: like I have a book deal with the biggest publisher

677
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 4: in the world, and it's just like, well, and I'm

678
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 4: not going to be like and I'm getting like shitty

679
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 4: royalties and like all this stuff, Like I ain't saying

680
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 4: all that, you know, because I want to get my

681
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 4: Instagram like so off and for people to buy the

682
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 4: book to tell me congratulations. I think it goes back

683
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 4: to like the personal branding, like yeah.

684
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 3: And that makes me think about just going back to

685
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 3: our initial ideas around this about how personal branding is

686
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 3: a form of storytelling. We craft a certain story about

687
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 3: ourselves when we're telling our personal brands. We choose to

688
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 3: give this, we choose not to give that. And I

689
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 3: pulled a definition from personal brand dot com which I had.

690
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 6: No idea existed before this episode, but they specifically say

691
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 6: a personal brand is a widely recognized and largely uniform

692
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 6: perception or impression of an individual based on their experience, expertise, competencies, actions, YadA.

693
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 3: YadA, YadA. All the rest of that definition. You can

694
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 3: go look it up. But the point is is that

695
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 3: it's clearly a crafted thing. It is when we create

696
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 3: our personal brands, we are thinking. We're being intentional about

697
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 3: what we choose to share and what we don't based

698
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 3: on how we want to be seen. So I know

699
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 3: that we've used the word authentic a couple of times

700
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 3: in this conversation. I was wondering, Bridget, if you think

701
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 3: it's even possible for us to be authentic and maintain

702
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 3: a sense of self in how we express ourselves when

703
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 3: we are doing this personal branding.

704
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely not.

705
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: I mean I think I think, based on the definition

706
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: that you just read that I agree with and our

707
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: conversation here, I think it's I mean, I don't think

708
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: it's a lie. You know, when Katie says like, oh,

709
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: I have this great book, deal with this great publisher

710
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: and all of that, leaving out the bit about the

711
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: parts that maybe aren't so exciting that she's not doesn't

712
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: not thrilled about. That's not a lie. It's just selective.

713
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: It's just you're only getting a partial view into it

714
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: that Katie wants to control, right, And that makes all

715
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 1: the sense in the world. So I don't think it's

716
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: I don't think it's inauthentic to mean dishonest, but I

717
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: do think it's selective. And we should all like have

718
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: that in our minds when we're scrolling Instagram every day,

719
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: that we're not getting the full lens into whatever whatever

720
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: is actually going on with people when they're branding themselves online,

721
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: Like I'm not giving my full self and how these

722
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: things feel for me when I'm branding myself and I

723
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: don't think the people that I'm consuming their content, I

724
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: don't think that they are either. And I would also add, like,

725
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: I think that it's really important to be branding yourself

726
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: online if you're a person making something in twenty twenty four. However,

727
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: I think that I've really found power in doing it,

728
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: understanding that I have to do it, but then not

729
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: really putting too much stock into it because how many

730
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: likes my stuff gets or whatever it feels good like,

731
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 1: it's like a like who doesn't like it when they're

732
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 1: when like all their friends are in the comments like yay,

733
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:45,959
Speaker 1: good job.

734
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: But you really have to like have a sense of.

735
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: What success looks like, like what nourishment looks like for you. Right, So, like,

736
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: I know stories that I want to tell, the work

737
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: I want to put out, I know how closely it

738
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: aligns with my actual values. Those are the kinds of

739
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: things that make me feel like a successful creative. And

740
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: I have to be really clear about the things that

741
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: like are the benchmarks of success for me, and what

742
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: are not the benchmarks of success for me? What just

743
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: like feels good and if I'm having a bad day

744
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: might give me a pickup, right, And so I think

745
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 1: it's important to not conflate those two things.

746
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I also think it's important to acknowledge how that

747
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: self selection, even though we have agency when we're doing it,

748
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 3: it can also be exhausting. Like just because we're doing

749
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 3: something we have control over doesn't mean that it doesn't

750
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: also take like a mental and spiritual toll on us

751
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 3: having to segment those parts of ourselves. Because black people

752
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 3: we have to compartmentalize in so many different ways already.

753
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 3: We have to be respectable sometimes, you know, we have

754
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 3: to tone shift. We have to do so many different

755
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 3: things of like how we think about how we appear

756
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 3: to other people in order to ensure our safety. So

757
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 3: when we self select in doing that and personal branding,

758
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 3: I think some of those things can also come up

759
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 3: around how it takes a toll in our bodies and

760
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: how it takes a toll in our spirits. And I

761
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 3: think that is also an important thing to acknowledge because

762
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 3: both of those things can exist at the same time.

763
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that.

764
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 1: And yeah, and it's so funny that you could be

765
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: crafting and in control of your personal brand, but still

766
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: very aware of like needing or wanting to come off

767
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: as a certain way, like more palatable or something. And

768
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: it's like, if there's ever a time where you should

769
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: be the person in control of how you show up,

770
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: it's like your little corner of the Internet. But I

771
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: don't feel that way. I wonder if you all feel

772
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: that way. You know, I don't really want to be

773
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: in spaces where I have to show up a certain

774
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: way in order to be accepted there.

775
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 2: However, even as.

776
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: I curate my little corner of my personal brand Internet,

777
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: I am aware of that sort of double consciousness that

778
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: you're talking about.

779
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, I feel.

780
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 4: Like if I truly showed up how I am, I

781
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 4: would be online like an FBI is most Wanted List, like.

782
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: We all have black pillow our heads in some secret.

783
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 5: Room, like girl, I ain't even trying to get that

784
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 5: deep with y'all for real.

785
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 3: Like, and then there are often times of dissonance for

786
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 3: me where I feel like I'm branded a certain I

787
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 3: can go look at my website. Y'all know I'm Southern.

788
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 3: Y'all know I'm gonna say y'all, y'all know I'm finna

789
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 3: ad be in front of things. And then, like you know,

790
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: when I'm in certain rooms, I mean, that's how I am,

791
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 3: that's my personality oftentimes, but you know that excuse me, yeah,

792
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 3: but that that there's a dissonance between my brand and

793
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 3: like how I do show up in some ways, not

794
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 3: necessarily because I am cutting off parts of myself, just

795
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 3: because I'm multiple people, Like I'm different ways in different places.

796
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 3: So also speaking of being multiple people and showing up

797
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 3: in different ways, I would have never expected you, Bridget,

798
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 3: to align yourself with Walter White. But so that's something

799
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 3: I wasn't expecting you to say. There is one thing

800
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 3: I want to say, just that I think we would

801
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 3: be remiss or I would be remiss not to say

802
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 3: that you were part of that information sharing for us,

803
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 3: Bridget as we were doing this podcast, like you shared

804
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: your contract with us. So when y'all hear Bridget say that,

805
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 3: know that she's telling the truth, I would do the same.

806
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 3: You know, anybody can come to me. I will be

807
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 3: transparent about that. And I can't solve all your problems.

808
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: I'm not a lawyer. I don't know intellectual property law.

809
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: You know there are other people who will need to

810
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 3: be on your support team, but I would be happy

811
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 3: to be of whatever kind of assistance I would like

812
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 3: to be.

813
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, this is my favorite topic. Like I

814
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: will tell you how much money I make, down to

815
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: the penny. I will like, like, I'm curious about other

816
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: creatives how much money they make. There's so much smoke

817
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: and mirrors, So like I want to know how much

818
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,919
Speaker 1: your house cost. I will ask the question, and I'm

819
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 1: happy to give that information back to others.

820
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes, So it turns out.

821
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: That Eve's, Katie, and myself all feel this similar strain

822
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: of discomfort around the idea of personal branding. All wanted

823
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: to know what that experience of personal branding is like

824
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: for one another as black creatives, and what happens when

825
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: it feels really exhausting, and what it all means for

826
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: our digital selves. Got a story about an interesting thing

827
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi? You can

828
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: read us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can

829
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tenggody dot com.

830
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

831
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 1: me Bridget tod It's a production of iHeartRadio, an Unbossed creative.

832
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our

833
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer.

834
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: I'm your host, bridget Todd. If you want to help

835
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review.

836
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 2: Us on Apple Podcasts.

837
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,959
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

838
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts